The Truth About Sauna, Cold Plunges and Longevity | Bill Gifford

Today's special guest is Bill Gifford. This is the second time we've had Bill on the show. Last time we were chatting about a book that he co-authored called Outlive with Dr. Peter Attia. Today we're talking about his new book called Hotwired, all about the power of sauna. Enjoy the show. Bill, a huge welcome back to the Habits of High Performers podcast.

James, good to see you again.

I'm so excited that you're here. Last time we chatted about a book that you were co-author of, which was called Outlive. Some people may have read it. For me, it was a really in-depth book, slightly overwhelming, if I'm honest. Didn't know where to start.

Writing it, that was overwhelming too.

I can only imagine. How long did that take, right? So, for me, I just loved it, but it was overwhelming. I couldn't apply it because it was so in-depth. Today, we're here to talk about something different. Hotwired. You've went in a different direction. Tell me a little bit about why you've went in that direction.

Well, it started with a sort of— it started while we were researching Outlive, in fact, and we came across these— I was aware of these studies from Finland showing that frequent sauna users had, you know, tremendous health, better health outcomes. And it kind of stuck in my head, but we didn't really use them, didn't really talk about them in Outlive. And I started going to a sauna myself and I kind of got it and I was like, there's something interesting going on here with this interaction between our health, our bodies, and the heat. And so I just went down that rabbit hole for, for the next 3 years.

Wow. That's incredible. And I'd love to talk a little bit about that. You bring up Finland. So I find Scandinavia fascinating in terms of culture, design, their mindset around life and community. So when you started to look into why the Finnish did it, it's not just a thing that they do as a popular craze. This has been a part, I imagine, a part of their culture for many, many decades.

Millennia. I think depending on who you ask, it's either 2,000 years old in Finland or 4,000 years old.

Wow.

And the original sauna, I think the word means like hole in the ground. So they would just dig a hole in the ground, throw in some hot rocks, put a, put a skin over the top and, and kind of huddle inside against the cold because it's cold.

Yes.

And that was the origin of a sauna. But that even then, even then, it was already probably ancient because in Spain, these archaeologists found some rocks in some like Iron Age ruin that, that appeared to have been heated up and cooled and heated up and cooled. Like sauna rocks, and those were 12,000 years old.

Wow.

Yeah, it's this ancient practice.

So long before science was a thing, humans innately knew that this was a good practice for us to be doing.

Yeah, yeah, which is really interesting to me. Like, why, why did we, uh, why do you know, why do we think that? And it kind of makes sense because if you're living in Finland, you know, we're not fur-covered animals, right? Every other mammal that lives in Finland is covered in fur. So it was cold and we needed to stay warm and hot to survive. So warmth equaled safety.

And did you go to Finland and experience it for yourself?

We did. Yeah. My partner and I went. Amazing. She's part Finnish.

Oh, she's part Finnish. That's awesome. I love it. So talk me through what that experience was like, what you learned on the ground.

Well, it was interesting. You know, I went essentially from my, the sauna in my gym to a public sauna in Helsinki, which it was like the big leagues. It was like going, me going to play in the World Cup next week.

I love it.

It was just intensely hot and the heat had a, it had a weight to it. It had a, it had a, a mass to it because they use, they don't use like a few little rocks in a basket, you know, like most sort of North American and I think, you know, gym type saunas do. It was, it was tons of rocks. It was like a, a, an SUV load of, of rocks, you know, heated up by a fire and it just throws off this incredible heat. I think there's this infrared aspect to it too. And So yeah, it's intense heat, but it's not, it's not painful. It's not unbearable because the, the steam aspect kind of softens it. And so the Finns are really particular about the lode, or the steam, and, and that kind of creates a sort of comforting, comforting embrace. I'm talking about after a couple rounds, you're like, oh, this is, um, This is pretty cozy.

So you start to get used to it. And I guess the dry sauna, there's probably a different name for it. And then there's like the steam sauna. Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses, to large corporates, to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Caroline@jjloughlin.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Yeah. So, the Finnish sauna. I think those are kind of misnomers, the dry sauna, um, because in Finland, you, unlike at the gym, you put water on the, on the glowing hot rocks and the steam blasts up and it's pretty intense for a minute and then it kind of abates. And so that's kind of the ritual that, that they cherish. But the really interesting thing, um, I observed was that in North America, people were very intent on their longevity biomarkers and things like heat shock proteins, which we can talk about. And what is this sauna doing for my health? So it was almost like a prescription, you know, I stay in for exactly 15 minutes at this exact temperature. And then we, you know, in Finland nobody does that. They don't even time. They don't have a timer. They just kind of sit sit there as long as they feel like it, then they, then they get out.

More flow, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it's just a part of life, you know. It's not some biohacking ritual. It's just something you do with your friends or by yourself at the end of the day.

I quite like that, Bill. And I'm probably— because I've been engaged in longevity and learning, and I've engaged with health coaches that are longevity practitioners, and I'm probably a little bit like— not burnt out, but getting a little bit fed up. And it's just, it's so, it's so prescriptive and rigid almost. And I think like someone like Bryan Johnson, I mean, amazing individual doing amazing things, but I could not imagine living my life like that. So I love the fact that they're just flowing with it and they go in and they don't measure it, they don't look at the, the proteins, etc. They just experience it, right?

And it's something that Finnish people and Finnish people and Scandinavian people in the US have grown up with. So they didn't, they didn't need some influencer telling them how to, how to use sauna correctly. The grandmother taught them, grandfather. So it's just, it's just part of life. And, you know, the interesting thing, the nice thing about it is, you know, it's quite a pleasant way to spend a couple of hours. You don't even feel like you're You know, you're not maxing out on your reps and, you know, it's not terribly difficult. You know, it's pleasant. You have a little conversation, you maybe have a beer or some other beverage, stay hydrated, have a nice, you know, bonding moment with whomever or even with your own thoughts.

There's a sense of community is what I'm hearing is particularly in Finland that is about connection. Whether it be self, but often with others, going in and doing it in a communal way. This idea of spending a couple of hours in a sauna, I'm like freaking out going, "I'd pass out." But obviously—

Oh, you go in and out, you go in and out.

Right. So talk me through that. When you go out, do you do the cold plunge or do you just cool down and come back when you're ready?

Well, my favorite way is to go out and get lightly snowed on. And that, that's my favorite way to cool off. And you kind of see the steam coming off your body and I like to cool off naturally, but you know, there's all, there's usually like a lake or a body of water when we, we were there in March. And so the cold typically involved climbing down a frozen ladder into a hole chopped in the foot thick ice.

And you did that?

Took a little bit of stealing. Yeah. A couple of times. Legend. Yeah. And then there, there was one place where, um, they had a bubbler to, to keep the ice away.

Wow.

And people, these old guys, like 80-year-old guys, were dog paddling around in the, in the Baltic.

That's incredible.

Yeah. Wow.

And so you could come back several times, 5, 6 times? Yeah, coming back in 15, 20 minutes roughly at a time.

Yeah, it's, it's, um, It's sort of like a cocktail party conversation. You stay in it until it seems like it's time to leave.

I like that.

And there's a door. And yeah, each, each in and out is a— it's a round. And there's no— but there's no sort of prescription as to how many rounds you go for or how long you stay in the water. It's just you kind of do what you want. It's, it's kind of freedom. Now if you go to Germany, there are definitely rules about how long to stay in, you know, no talking, um, and you know what, there's sort of hygiene and etiquette rules that are pretty strict. You know, sit on a towel, put your feet on a towel.

Very cultural different— like the cultural differences are showing there. And German's obviously very precise and Yeah.

And they're very into sauna.

Yeah.

Too. I mean, tremendously popular there.

And science. I mean, that's where you go deep. That's where you're just in a league of your own. So talk me through what's actually happening inside our bodies when we're in sauna and maybe post sauna as well.

Right. So your body is trying to maintain a constant temperature, homeostasis, and it tries to stay constant and many different parameters like pH, you know, stuff like that. Temperature is a big one. And so it senses from your skin that you're starting to get hot and to— and so it tries to cool you down. And by— in trying to cool you down, your heart rate speeds up, um, you know, 20 to 40 beats above normal, at least for me, after a while. And so you get more blood flow especially to your, um, like your extremities into your skin. And so your skin might get flushed. That's where your skin, skin gets, turns pink or red. Then you start to sweat also. Um, so, so that cardiovascular, um, and the blood vessel dilation that happens and the nitric oxide that gets kind of released as part of that process. That is thought to contribute to at least some of the health benefits that, that have been seen in big studies. What kind of— similar to exercise, a little bit.

Okay, so similar to exercise, obviously less vigorous in terms of what you have to put in, just kind of passive from our part, but benefits cardiovascular. Uh, and anything in particular? There's been studies that show, you know, in terms of people living healthier, happier, more energy?

Well, at a sort of mechanistic level, you have better— your blood vessels are— function better, essentially. A little more flexibility. They dilate more easily. Blood pressure reduction. And so that then translates into these observations in this particular big Finnish study of cardiovascular disease. Where they found that the people using sauna the most had the best health outcomes. So they had half, you know, 60%, 40% the rate of fatal heart attacks, which were a big problem in Finland in the '80s. Wow. Really big problem. One of the worst rates of, of coronary heart disease in the world. But the people who use sauna less, more did better.

Hmm. So really direct connection there.

Yeah, yeah, a very strong effect. And so it makes you think that maybe there's some causality behind the correlation.

That's incredible. And is there an age— like, I'm thinking of my 10-year-old son. Like, often we get to, you know, 40 and 50 and 60, we start going, oh, I'd like to influence my blood pressure, oh, I'd like to, you know, have a longer life. But do they start them young in Finland in terms of exposing them to these different like, say, sauna, for example.

Back in the day, women would give birth in a sauna. I've met Finnish people who were born in saunas. Wow.

Yeah, that's incredible.

Yeah. If you think about it, it was probably the most sterile, you know, if you're in the rural place, it's probably the most sterile room in the house because of the temperature.

Yeah. Nothing could— yeah, no bacteria can live in there.

Yeah.

Wow.

But yeah, you see kids, um, in, in saunas. Like, um, I heard a story from somebody, um, last weekend at this sauna event I was at, uh, talking about somebody breastfeeding in a sauna in Finland. And at one public sauna I went to, in the women's locker room, um, there are all kinds of toys for the kids who come with their moms.

Brilliant. That's seriously awesome. So it's a real all ages and stages. There's health benefits for everyone. It's a community experience.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you don't want to get your 5-year-old too hot.

Yeah.

You know, you might want to let him run out or sit on the lowest bench or, you know, dunk in some water. Kids love cold plunging though.

Well, you mentioned a moment ago about heat shock proteins. What exactly are they?

They're interesting. Um, a while back, some scientists took, uh, these little animals called nematode worms, which sound bizarre, but they're really commonly used in biology. They're about a millimeter long and they have, you know, 1,000 cells. They're great for basic biology. Anyway, um, they, they warmed these little guys up under basically a heat lamp and found that they lived longer because they expressed these things called heat shock proteins, which are like stress response proteins. They, they're part of the stress response of the cell. They help essentially maintain and protect other proteins. And then when other proteins are malfunctioning or misfolding, meaning they don't work anymore, they kind of clean up they clean up the junk in your cells. Your cells work, uh, more efficiently.

It just happens in humans as well.

Yeah, it happens in everything. It's like, this is like billion-year-old biology that evolved because, you know, the, the climate on Earth, temperature was going up and down and up and down, and there's a lot of heat stress at times. And so life needed to be able to, to, um, to survive that heat stress.

Wow. And so the way that we activate these proteins is by sauna, working out, being outside in a very hot environment.

Yeah. Any kind of warm environment, anytime your, your temperature gets elevated, you know, above the sort of ideal baseline body temperature. But typically they, they think that, that it, it peaks at around, or it really starts going at about 101 Fahrenheit, which is, you you know, a little under 38 Celsius. I'm not saying to get yourself up that hot, but yes, you know, it happens at lower temps too.

Okay.

And it also happens in response to other kinds of stress, including cold, by the way.

So you get these proteins being released in cold, but they're the same protein?

Not exactly the same, but, but same family, right?

And obviously, Hotwired, you went down the hot route as opposed to hot and cold route. Have you thought that there's a benefit to having hot and cold, or can we, if we don't like cold, can we just stick to the hot stuff?

Yeah, I mean, I think you can. I think one, the primary benefit of the cold part is it brings your temperature down more quickly. So it's like you're you thermoregulate yourself and you come back to baseline. If you just keep getting hotter and hotter and hotter, you could, you could run into trouble. Yeah. You know, cold plunge, cold plunging is a bit of a fad. I think it's a, the sort of internet prescription is a little bit ahead of the actual data, which I think is less, well developed than the sauna data and the heat, the heat physiology data. You know, my, in my mind, the jury's, jury's kind of out, but like for athletes, I don't think it's the cure-all that, that many people seem to believe that it is. Especially in terms of strength after a strength workout. You know, it, it kind of, there's many, many studies that show that cold exposure kind of blunts muscle adaptation, muscle growth.

It's interesting because right now, for this last few years, it has been this massive craze online of people teaching you how to do it and having retreats on it. And it's a huge movement almost.

Yeah. No, it's a, it's, it's, it's a craze. And, you know, people like it. And I make a distinction between cold plunging and cold swimming. I was up in Minnesota last month, um, and I went to a friend's cabin on a lake, and he had this beautiful Finnish sauna. His family is Scandinavian, and it was just a magical experience. And the lake was, you know, 40 degrees with wind whipping across, and You know, but going swimming in that was, was like a wonderful experience. Yeah. But like just getting in some like porcelain or plastic tub full of ice water is just not, that doesn't, that doesn't do it for me.

Fair enough. Yeah. There's no joy in that.

No, no. It's interesting though. There, there was a, the, the one large, truly large study of, of cold water. Exposure that I, that I was able to find. Um, I think there were about 3,000 people. It was done in the Netherlands, and they had, they had them do, um, normal shower every day and then finish with 30, 60, or 90 seconds of just ice cold. And then they looked for— after a month, they looked for differences. The only difference they found was that, um, the, the people doing the cold showers missed fewer days of work, so they went to work more. Now the interesting thing about that is they were actually sick the same number of days. They just went to work.

So more resilience.

They were, they were motivated. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm sick, but I just did this terrible cold shower, so I can do anything today. I like that. And that's why people like it. That's why those, you know, high-achieving type people, you know, they always love the cold plunge. And it, you know, it— some people, it amps them up for the day. I think a lot of stressful—

it stresses the body, right?

Yeah. So I'm not always in the mood, but, you know, where I live, we're getting into, you know, hot summer and I will be at my local cold plunge place frequently.

That's awesome. And in terms of sauna, you know, I would love to get one myself here. Are you an advocate of people daily saunaing at home or should they try and find somewhere local where they can go and have a communal sauna? Is there any, any research that shows better or worse?

I think there's no, not, not at all. Um, you know, I think it just depends on, you know, how much money you have in your bank account. Um, how long you're going to stay in your house, you know, in, in Finland, again, every apartment block has a sauna for, for the building and often individual apartments, right? Our hotel rooms always had a sauna.

Wow.

But, you know, I guess if you would rather just sauna with yourself and your friends, then get one in your backyard. And if you're up for a more social kind of thing— personally, I don't have one at my place, and there's a couple of, um, you know, nice places in Salt Lake City where I live that I can go to.

That's awesome.

And I've met some interesting, interesting folks there.

Yeah, good conversations as well.

Yeah, a few. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If I remember, I travel a lot doing keynotes and often staying at hotels, and if there's a sauna there, you always have an interesting conversation with folks doing cool things in the world.

But I find that hotel saunas sometimes usually aren't very good. Yeah, I can be a sauna snob, but no, 100%, they're either super hot or cold, or yeah, or they're, they're not turned on. Yeah. Or they're just— it's like an afterthought. And I think, you know, especially like nice places, like they're kind of missing out on an opportunity. But that's another discussion.

Yeah, it could attract a whole new audience, right? Yeah, 100%. And so in terms of, let's say, people who are stressed out, burnt out, working hard, cortisol flooding their system, Is sauna a helpful tool for them?

It was for me. You know, after writing Outlive, I, I was, I was kind of fried, honestly. And we were having a cold winter. And so I just kind of gravitated to the basic sauna in the gym. And, you know, it made me feel better. Um, every time. And then I kept going back, so it's a great reset, you know. I find that— but also it makes you a little bit high, you know. If you do a hot and a cold, hot and cold, you know, you get to be like— get to be a little bit euphoric. Um, and so I always find that, you know, after even just a couple couple sessions, um, whatever was bugging me when I went in, it just doesn't seem as significant.

So it's like a meditative reset?

Yeah, yeah. You kind of get to a— just kind of everything with me, it's like everything just kind of releases. Um, I call it unclenching.

Yeah, letting go. It's interesting. Yeah, I was somewhere, I was in New Zealand, South Island. I think it was Maruia Hot Springs. They had natural hot springs and then they had a sauna attached and a cold plunge. So did the sauna. But a person came in, like a facilitator came into the sauna and they had a towel and they were like doing this whipping motion. So it created like more intensified the heat a lot.

Yeah. Yeah.

Is that a Finnish thing?

No.

Okay.

No, the Finnish— the Finns are appalled. Okay. They're very traditional. I think it's a German thing, but it's kind of spreading around the world. It's called aufguss.

Right.

And they have elaborate— often, you know, the most basic form is what you described, you know, some guy or woman waving a towel around and circulating the air, which, you know, is kind of nice, but it can be very intense.

Yes.

When, when you're getting the full, full blast of the heat. But they can do performances. I've seen plays, you know, Afghans style plays of people dressed up in costumes in a sauna, which seems crazy. And then I heard one guy— I was at a place in Bucharest, Romania, a place called Thermae, and a guy sang, uh, did the performance thing. He sang an opera. He sang an aria from Tosca. It was beautiful. Yeah. Wow.

To perform in those conditions alone, like, that's impressive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was quite moving.

Yeah, I could imagine that would be. And for me, I don't know, I spend a lot of time with large groups of people and travel a lot, being around people at events, I think having a sauna at home would be great. And I'd probably meditate in there and just close my eyes and enjoy the moment. That to me sounds dreamy.

That does sound dreamy. Yeah. Yeah. If it could be a wood-fired sauna.

Okay. I'm getting some—

Maybe a little lake. You live in New Zealand. There's probably like a river right next to your house, right?

Pretty much. We live like right by all these little inlets. So it's 2 minutes away.

Oh, nice. Yeah.

So easily different types of sauna. So you got the rocks and then you've got wood-fired. They're different, different types of sauna.

Well, there's wood and there's electric as far as the heat source.

Okay.

They all have rocks.

Okay.

Yeah. And then there's infrared.

Any benefits to that in your research?

You know, there are some studies showing, like, like for example, in Japan, infrared is used for, uh, people with serious cardiovascular disease as a therapy. So that's, that's intriguing. I find it a little too, um, I like the organicness of, of the traditional style. I like the rocks and the steam and all that kind of stuff. But if you have an apartment in the city, infrared's, you know, the way to go.

Yeah, I think for me, I'd probably—

easier.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I love it. Now, I hope that everyone that's listening is curious by getting into hot therapy. First step, though, is get into the show notes and buy the book, Get Hot Wired Today. And I'll put a link right below so people can come along and follow your journey on socials as well. But get the book. I've been in so many bookstores all over Australia, New Zealand, Singapore. I've seen the book everywhere. And you're in the UK recently, you've seen it everywhere as well. So guys, there's no excuses if you can't find it in a bookstore. It's available everywhere online. So I'll put those links below. Is there anything else you'd like to add though, Bill?

I mean, this book was a lot of fun to write and, and research, obviously, as I've hinted, but You know, I think it was just an— I just let my curiosity take me in different directions. And, um, you know, there's more to it than, than sauna. It's not just about sauna, it's about heat adaptation for athletes and others. You know, right now it's— I don't know when this is going to come out, this is June, it's starting to get hot. We're about to have the World Cup, and a lot of the teams, including the British team, are already struggling in the North American heat. Wow. Because they're not heat adapted. And that's a whole other section of the book that I went, went into and tried heat adaptation training myself and heat testing and stuff like that. So I kind of overcame my fear of, of hot climates, hot weather.

It's going to be helpful for me because I go to places like Fiji or Singapore and I struggle. I really struggle to adapt and yeah, I'll stay in the air conditioning and it's not good for me. So the book's going to be transformational for my personal life, that's for sure.

I hope so.

It will be. Now, thank you so much, Bill. I appreciate the work that you do. Appreciate you sharing and the book with the world. So hopefully everyone get to the show notes, get the book ordered and share it with the world. If you practice hot therapy and it helps spread the word, get people a book, gift it to them. Thank you so much, Bill.

Thanks, James. Great to talk to you again.