Transforming Trauma: A Journey of Healing and Leadership with Matt Brown

I'm so incredibly excited to be sitting here today with the one and only Matt Brown. I got the book she Is not yout Rehab, and it was an incredibly emotional read. It really changed my perspective on my place in the world and the traumas that I've taken and went through in my life and possibly not dealt with the way that I could have. So through reading the book, I've learned a lot about what I need to do to step up, and I've got a little sun Finn, as many of you know, and I feel like the lessons learned in this are really going to help. So I'm just honored today to introduce Matt Brown. Welcome, Matt.

Thank you, brother. Thanks for having me.

Huge welcome. It's so, so great to connect with you and welcome you to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Honored to be here, brother. Thank you.

The opportunity to connect with you in person is an honor and I've had the pleasure of reading your book and I hope that every listener grabs a copy after what they hear today. The work that you do is so important. We look at what's happening here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, with our statistics around child mortality, domestic violence, teen suicide. And to me, you are a leader and you're leading the way with changing the narrative, raising awareness and actually giving people tools. You're not just simply raising awareness, you're giving people tools. And in the book, you, I read through and could take away five or six things where, wow, I could apply that to my mindset, to my toolkit. So let's start from the start. What inspired you as Little Matt? If you go back to Little Matt, where did this all begin for you?

This will be obviously my story. My story of my upbringing. Witnessing domestic violence from as young as three, from what I remember, it was. It was a normal part of my upbringing. You know, by the age of 10, we had lived in every woman's refuge home here in Otahi. My father, throughout my whole entire childhood, was incarcerated in and out constantly due to domestic violence. And so, yeah, I just had a need I got. By the age of 15, I moved out of home, wanted to get away because home was a war zone, a constant war zone. I mean, I remember waking up at 3 o' clock in the morning to my mum, my mum being pulled down the hallway by her hair. And I looked over to my little brother who slept across the room from me, and he just said, oh, mum, did I edit again? And we would just turn back around and go back to sleep because it was just so we Just knew that our mum would survive us.

But that left a heavy impression on me as a kid. And then around my neighbourhood where I grew up, Hornby and Aranoi. I moved into Adenoi when I was 15. A lot of my close friends, you know, were dealing drugs, incarcerated, joining gangs, heavy addictions. And I lost a few close friends to suicide. And it was from then on, at a young age, where I realized I didn't want to follow that narrative.

Because it was just destroying us. And I knew why. I knew why. It was because the trauma that so many of us grew up around, you know, we just internalized it. And when you suppress it for so long, it. Pain demands to be felt and how it's going to be felt, it manifests itself into all sorts of things. So, yeah, decided to go on my own hikoi, my own journey of healing, doing the work myself. And when I say healing, my journey of healing wasn't butterflies and rainbows and unicorns. It was a lot of tears, a lot of therapy and just talking about my own pain. And so when I discovered barbering, which I am now a barber.

Holding space for men to talk, I soon learnt from the men that sat in my chair was that we were all more alike than we are different. That shame, pain, trauma doesn't discriminate. No matter where you come from or what status you hold or where you are in the wealth status, all of us are more alike.

Which then lead on to writing a.

Book, an incredible book, I'll put at that.

Thank you, bro.

And trauma is an interesting thing. So I love that you address the fact that it doesn't matter where you come from, who you are, what age, stage, wealth you're at. We all carry some form of trauma and many of us find ways to keep it at bay in the short term. For me, that was alcohol for a long time and I normalized that. I socialized that it was a couple of beers or half a bottle of wine or a bottle of wine a day, that was normal, but it's not normal. It leads to poor decisions, poor health, poor mental health. So for the person that's listening right now, that has got trauma, I guess we've got tiny T's and big T's. So the tiny traumas, missing out on a sports team and being laughed at, tiny tr, seeing a parent be physically abused or someone yourself being sexually abused, big T, big trauma. Where do people start in terms of going into the healing journey?

Well, I like to start from the best description of trauma I've ever Heard comes from a guru that I admire who goes by the name of Gaba Mate. And he says trauma is what happens inside of you as a result of what happened to you. And so when I come from that foundation of knowing what's, you know, the experiences that we've had, especially as a child witnessing violence or even experiencing sexual abuse.

That'S traumatic. And so for me, in my healing journey, what I had to do, one of the tools I had to teach myself was re parenting myself, going back to that situation and speaking life to little Matt, giving life to little Matt, giving him some hope.

And help him reinterpret those events. Because for a lot of children, we have two options, especially if you're growing up in violence. Option one is we blame our caregivers, it's their fault.

Or option two is we blame ourselves. And for most kids, we're not going to blame our caregivers because, you know, they put food on the table. They need to be our nurturers and kids, you know, super superheroes. So we internalize it and we blame ourselves. For most kids, we'll blame ourselves. You know, maybe I'm doing something wrong or it's my fault while mum and dad are arguing, or my fault while dad is stressing or mum is stressing. And then that lives within us, you know, as adults. And so I've had to go. And I used to believe that, you know, shame ruled my life for so many years. You know, I was worthless. You know, I'm not good for anyone, I'm ugly. All those things I told myself. And then as a man, you know, it really affected me. You know, it affected my relationships, it affected how I interacted with people. And so I've had to really, for me, doing the work was going back and reinterpreting to little Matt that your childhood trauma wasn't your fault. You know, what's happened to you was not your fault. But your healing now as an adult is so your responsibility.

I love that you call it that. It's your responsibility as an adult to heal your own trauma as opposed to looking for external ways to express that. And for some, that's through addiction, for some, that's through violence, crime. The statistics would say what you've suffered, you probably most people would not have written a book. They wouldn't be traveling around New Zealand and the world spreading the message that you spread. You know, that's truly incredible what you've done.

Thank you very.

Yeah, it's phenomenal. So for the kids right now, because there are kids Right now, as we talk, that are in abusive environments, what does the future look like for them? What kind of leadership do we need at a family level, at a community level, and of course, a national level? What leadership needs to be shown to help these kids have a brighter future?

We need more men speaking up, calling other men forward. You know, I only speak in the space of being because that's where this Kaupapa, our movement, has started. In a barbershop, which is predominantly male, a male industry. And so what I try and do with the little that I have, you know, my little clippers, I mean, I started with Remington clippers from the warehouse, you know, on the box at titles, titanium blades. But, you know, you use those blades on Polynesian hair. You know, you only get one. One cut out of that.

But with the little that I had, you know, I. I utilized my little space. I mean, I started in the hood in a little garden tin shed in a place called Aranui. But I utilized that space to. To have conversations with men, calling men forward. Not calling them out and shaming them, but calling them forward, believing, you know, the best for them. And I think we need more men throughout society doing that to each other, calling out our boys, you know, calling our boys forward. Not with a, you know, a beer in front of us, but just in general, you know, in my barbershop, we make it a thing to not objectify women. You know, this is a family shop. We don't run other barbershops down. We talk and encourage and uplift people, you know, and it's just creating their culture, the new culture, A new culture. Why can't we challenge the old narratives? Because it hasn't served us. And I've seen it, you know, my boys, close friends, taking their own lives. Aotearoa, we have some of the highest statistics when it comes to suicide. And the sad thing is, a lot of those suicide rates are our indigenous people. Incarceration rates are through the roof. Again, the highest statistics are indigenous men who are incarcerated. And so we need to ask the question, what has happened to our men while we are, you know, committing crime, perpetrating violence? And so for me, it's having. Being brave and courageous enough to have these conversations with our boys, like, talk, reach out, and feel. I always say I'm a massive believer that feelings are a tunnel. You know, we have to go through it to see the light at the end. But for a lot of people, we don't want to go through it. We just want to sit there in the tunnel, take the closest substance that we can.

Gravitate towards or get, and hopefully that will suppress or free us from our feelings. But they're not going anywhere. So I think having conversations from a community level all the way to the top.

It'S all our responsibility. I'm tired of hearing people pointing the finger at those who are incarcerated or those who perpetrate violence. You know, they should do better. You need to do the healing work. You need to, you know, get your shit together. But I'm like, where's our responsibility as a society? Like, we need to call each other forward and hold these brave conversations.

And in the book, you talk about that in the barbershop. The people, the men that come in, they become friends, and you spend years with them. And there comes a time when you have to call them not out, but call them forward on what they're doing with their family and how they're talking about their partner and how they're treating their partner. Where do you develop or where did you develop the courage to actually have those conversations?

I think first. First and foremost, you have to be vulnerable. And that's such a hard idea for a lot of us men, you know, growing up in society. Vulnerability. Vulnerability looks like weakness, but it's so. Not that. So far from the truth, especially in gang culture, you know, vulnerability can. Can get you killed. Vulnerability can. Can really, you know, end up in a bad result. But I found when I'm vulnerable with my story, owning my story and speaking it, it gives permission for other men to be vulnerable and share their story. And then in that transition, that's where we create connection. And from connection, we get relationship. And when you have relationship, you have trust, because no, trust is the foundation of any relationship. And it's from there we can start calling each other forward. But I'll never speak into another man's life until he gives me permission first. But I know people only give you permission is when they feel safe with you. So my challenge to all people who, in any form of relationship, friendship, is, are you a safe person? If not, how do you become a safe person? And you only become safe by doing the work yourself.

And in the book, you know, there were some very emotional moments. I felt very emotional reading it and thinking of little Matt. And I could only imagine how that felt to go through that, retell that story. But upon showing that vulnerability and sharing the story of some of the horrific things that you witnessed and experienced, what's been the healing aspect of that journey?

Owning my story. I think when you own owning your story, is the most powerful thing, powerful, the most powerful healing tool I've come across because I'm a massive believer. People heal through storytelling, through our stories, especially indigenous people like, you know, we've always healed through stories. Sitting around the fala, sitting around on the marae and whananga and hui, and just talking and sharing our stories. Which is why, you know, like, when you look at tangata whenua, when you look at mori, when they do the pepeha, you know, it's through storytelling, you're not just hearing their, you know, whakapapa, the genealogy, where they come from, but you're hearing the stories that they've carried. You know, that creates connection. And I'm a massive believer. Connection is healing.

But you're telling my story is, you know, sharing those ugly parts of my childhood that are full of shame. I'm a massive believer. Shame can't.

Can'T stand, can't exist in the light, especially when it's covered with empathy and understanding. And so I only can share because I've been met with empathy and compassion and understanding. And that was through my wife, you know, and I often talk about it in the book. You know, she's not my rehab, but she's my home. And home should be a place of peace, of safety. Safety. And that's who my wife is. And so, because she loves me for me, loves all the ugly, the darkness that I thought was so unlovable, this person shining light in a dark place.

I'm good. Like, I can go anyway, anywhere now and just tell and speak because I know I have that one person in my corner who I'm safe with, you.

Know, and that's incredible because I think of my story and I share my story often when I'm connecting with people. But there's probably parts of my story I've never shared. And I imagine there's lots of people listening right now that have shameful parts of their existence and story that they haven't shared. So I think that's a great challenge for all of us is to think about who we are, what's got us to hear, and how we actually shed light on that shame. And you talk about doing the work, and I love that. I recently started working with a therapist, healer here in Christchurch. And all around, releasing emotions. First one was anger and then guilt and then shame. And she said, james, we're going to work on guilt today. I'll be fine. I don't think there'll be much. And then next week we'll work on shame. I Was like, I don't really have any. And we got into it. I was like, wow, there's a lot. Like it was mind blowing and it definitely shifted how I think about my existence, my place in the world. It impacted how I parent Finn because I think the book really highlighted this for me. You can pass down one of two things. You can pass down wounds or you can pass down wisdom, but you don't get to pass down both. And so I guess for me it's like I can pass down the wounds. So.

Good example.

Mom and dad, they divorced when I was through puberty around early teens. And unfortunately they still don't talk. And that's 20 odd years. And it's been tough and it still is tough for them and for kids and grandkids. So for me I thought, okay, I can pass that wound down. So Lisa and I parted ways and we could have done the same thing. But actually Lisa and I both decided it's like let's be happily even after and be great friends.

Awesome.

And that was challenging a bit. But it helped for Finn, for him. But as part of that was helping me to, as you talked about, almost reparent my little child, James. So I really did. There was a number of things in that I really connected with in the book. And yeah, your story is just simply phenomenal.

Thank you, brother.

Incredible.

So cool.

You talk about safety and having that safe space and your beautiful wife creates that. What does that feel like? So when you walk home and there's that space there, what does that feel like for you?

It feels like.

It feels like I can do anything, I can be anyone. It feels like peace.

Because we live a very, I wouldn't say chaotic, but a busy life. Like, you know, we get pulled in so many directions with this Kaupapa, with our mahi, with our work. It's so.

We struggle sometimes to find that time and the space for each other and for our kids.

But because we do this mahi together, my wife and I work together a lot.

I'm always. I feel at peace. I'm always at peace knowing that, you know, we were doing something with purpose. We're both passionate about it, you know, trying to change the narrative, especially with our statistics here in Aotearoa. But just working with my wife.

It'S just so peaceful. Like I just, I don't know, I just never stress. I only stress when she's stressed. But that's due to like creative, you know, like something's gone wrong or out of our control. But yeah, safety. She. She's for a kid like me, who, who didn't, who never knew. Like, I often say this when I, when I speak publicly is the one word that I would describe my entire childhood would be unsafe. It was unsafe to think, it was unsafe to share. It was unsafe to have an opinion. It was unsafe to be Matt Brown.

But my wife, she just, she. She has this gift of really listening and being so empathetic and sitting with you. And that's one of the greatest things I learned from my wife. You know, often for us men, we need to, we're fixers, we need to have the answers. We're so solution based.

But when my wife.

It wasn't about that for her. For her, it was just sitting and acknowledging my pain in silence. And that was hard. That was difficult because it's awkward, you know, it's like, oh, please say something. But she just. When I shared my stories of shame with her, she would just sit there and cry. And I'll be sitting there like, why am I not crying? And then she would often ask those questions. I find it weird that you don't cry about this stuff because I would often laugh, laugh about my childhood. That was how we survived, was we had to laugh at it. It was either that or crumble and cry.

But where do you cry In a place that's so, you know, that is a war zone. You just get more ridiculed. And so my wife created a safe space for me to cry, but she gave me permission to cry because she cried. You know, she cried for Little Mat, which at the end, in turn, I started crying for Little Mat. And that was so healing. And my tears weren't met with shame or being humiliated for crying or being called a softy or weak. It was met with, I love you and I'm here to support you. However, that looks like it's incredible.

I feel I felt similarly when I read the book as to how your wife felt emotional crying for a little nap. I just couldn't imagine because I thought of little Finn. So he's six years old now. There's no way I could imagine him having to suffer that. And so I really felt that for you. And I'm glad that you've actually felt that and you've expressed that in a safe space and now you're in a place where you can share it with the world.

Yeah, I have no, like, no fits about crying publicly. Like, I'll cry publicly. I mean, speaking on your boy Finn, you know, my son Angelo, when he was three, I cried every night that whole year, my son turned three. That whole year, I cried every night, because three was the age I remember being sexually abused. Three was the age that I remember my innocence, my mana being trampled on. That I recall. And so when I put my son to sleep.

I would cry every night. Because I look at this boy and I just think, how would anyone want to hurt you? How could anyone want to hurt you and abuse you? And you're so blessed, you're privileged, that you have a mum and dad who love you and adore you.

But that was robbed from me. That was stolen from me. And so this is my mission now to all the little Angelos, the little Finns, the little Mat's, the little James of this world.

That they feel loved and seen and known. But that requires us men to really be courageous and vulnerable. Like, when we go into prisons, people expect men who are incarcerated to be different and be better, but it's like, how can they if they've never seen it? If you only ever witness and experience fear, violence and abuse, like, you can understand, you're going to most likely, more likely perpetuate violence and abuse. And so for a lot of me, when me and my wife go into prisons behind the wire, we do a lot of relationship therapy group sessions in there, and we model intimacy. We ask the men in the prison, we sit them around a circle, like, you know, what. What do you guys. What's your definition of intimacy? You know, all the men chuckle, start laughing. Sex, you know, you know, rooting her, all this stuff. And we break down the word, you know, intimacy is into me, see? So it requires vulnerability. And then we model. What does that look like? And so we sit, we put two chairs in the circle. We get the men to ask a question, write down a question. We give them a piece of paper and pens, Write down any question that you would ask.

Your person, your partner, or a question that you'd want that you think that she would ask you. So these men write these questions, and then we take the questions, we put them in front of us, me and Sarah, and we just sit there and stare at each other, and we pick up the questions and we ask one another questions like, yeah, are you disappointed in me? And we have honest krero. Every time we do it, we sit there and cry. And the men are sitting there crying, too, like, f. What is this? Like, this is what intimacy looks like. It's being vulnerable with your person.

And that's a very foreign.

Thought for a lot of these men, because vulnerability is, again, taught to Be weak, but it's not, you know. And so when these men see intimacy model, they're like, ah, I've never actually stared at my wife longer than 10 seconds in the eyes because it's such a sacred thing, you know, to really. Your eyes are the gateway to your heart, are the window to your soul. And so when you model intimacy, when you model what a healthy relationship looks like, these mean the light being turns on. It's like, oh, but these guys have never seen that. All they've ever witnessed is mum and dad fighting. So then they just carry on tradition. The cycle continues until you actually show them this is what it looks like to break the great disciple.

It's so powerful. And I think about, we often think around kids and we go, look, they're not going to do what you say.

They'Re going to do what you do.

But we forget to apply that to us adults, that we will only do what we see done. And so when we're told to behave and toe the line and not speed and not drink and not abuse. But if all we've ever seen is abuse and people doing the wrong things, well, that's what we're going to do. And so I love that your approach is like, we're going to model how intimacy is shown. And again, I bring it back to leadership. You're truly a leader in this area. What do you define as leadership?

I go.

The Samoan quote that I stand on with leadership, it goes ole ala I le pule, which means translation. The pathway to leadership is through service. And so for me, the greatest leaders will always serve. You know, you leave your ego at the door. It's about manaki tanga. You know, what the person needs before they even know it themselves or they know what they need, you know, you know what they need.

I'm grateful that I've been. I've chosen a career path which requires. It's the service industry, you know, to cut here, to listen to men's stories through the barber chair. That taught me leadership, you know, and it's been a gift because I've actually learned through the men, you know. Yes, therapy and counseling has been amazing and helpful. But listening to men's stories, who I've been so privileged to hear, it's been the honor of my life to listen and cry with men in my chair, you know, and just serving service, I believe is the pathway to leadership.

That's amazing. I hope that the listener that's listening right now or viewing really thinks about that because I believe in the corporate world. And in the capitalist society that leadership can be seen as hierarchical, title driven. But it's like, leave that at the door and come in and where you can add value, add that value. That's tremendous. So she is not your rehab for the individual who's not engaged with it yet, hasn't came across your work. Please let them know what it's all about and where you guys are taking. She is not your rehab.

So she, this Kaupapa, this movement was birthed, obviously from my story. It's the. She is my mother, witnessing my mother be a rehabilitation center my entire childhood. But then she is also my wife, a woman who refuses to be my rehab. I remember asking my best friend at the time, you know, you want to be my girlfriend? And she looked at me like shocked because we had been friends. Me and Sarah had been friends for four years before we, you know, before anything became romantic. And she was shocked and her words were simple. I love you and I will support you, but you need to check your ass into therapy. This is not my job to do the work for you. And I did because I wanted to be with this woman. I couldn't see my life without this woman. I checked my ass into therapy and I always tell people, I swear to God, my counselor probably needed therapy after our session was done because I just told him everything.

Yeah.

And obviously one session turned into now years of sessions.

But it was, yeah. I credit my wife because she is a woman who's so boundaried, you know, she knows her worth, she knows what she's deserving of and she deserved a man who transmit his pain and his trauma and his mai onto her, nor to our children that we were going to have. And so this Kaupapa is for us. It's an invitation for our men to take responsibility that yes, our childhood trauma is not our fault, but our healing is our responsibility. And so.

The title itself is triggering for a lot of people, you know, because, yes, we know he is not your rehab too. They are not your rehab. But this is from my personal experience. This is my lived experience. And if you want to write a book that's he is not your rehab or start a copapa that says he is not your rehab, go hard, I'll support you too, you know, but this is. We want to tackle our family violence statistics. I don't know the number off the bat in my head, but you know, New Zealand is one of the top in the world for family violence. I know in Australia we lose one woman every week by an intimate partner. One every week. And it's just horrific. And so women are dying at the hands of men, but men are dying at the hands of men as well. You know, we're taking our own lives. And so we wrote this book as a tool to gift to men that, you know, we wanted healing to be accessible because, you know, to see a therapist, you're looking at 100 to $320, which is one of my boys, he got quoted. $320 to see a relationship therapist. And for a lot of us men, that's groceries for a whole week or your mental health. And so most of us are going to choose our family and our mental health takes a back seat. And so we wanted the book to be accessible and to go into places that I won't ever be able to go to, you know, and it has. You know, we're proud that the book. We raised money. We got the book into every prison in Aotearoa. So by Christmas last year, 2021, every person incarcerated was gifted a book. Wow.

That's incredible.

It's incredible. And the letters.

The voice messages, the private messages that we've received from children, from partners, the letters from prison.

I'm always in tears. You know, it's just. It's beautiful. And so, yes, the book may be triggering the title, but it's such an empathetic, compassionate, holding you accountable as well approach to our healing.

I find it, yeah, almost, for me, it was like. It was a playbook. It was like, James, in this. In this setting, with this challenge, this is how you can approach it. This is how you can approach your healing. Here's some steps. So there was things in there that I didn't know in terms of, like, dealing with my own trauma and dealing with my own healing. I find it really helpful.

Awesome.

So the people that are listening right now, there could be a person that goes, you know what? There's somebody in my life that needs this book. There's a man that needs to read this. I want to ask them to step up. I'm going to call them to take action and buy that book. Equally, there's going to be leaders listening to this conversation right now who are running companies with hundreds, if not thousands of staff members. If they wanted to gift their staff members a book. So let's say multiple hundreds of copies of book, could they get in touch with your team or the publisher?

They can definitely get in touch with Penguin's, our publisher.

Great.

Or they're, They're. They're in all bookstores.

Or online but yeah, Penguin's our publisher, so I'm sure you can. Yeah, I don't sell them, so don't I get a lot of DMs. Can't buy one of your books. Like, bro, I don't sell them, you know.

But yeah, it's there. It's, it's in all the bookstores you can get at the warehouse, postie plus book calls.

But yeah, if they don't have it, like, I'm just encouraging people ask, ask at the counter. Can you please get this book in? Can you please get this book in? But it's a great gift. It's a great, you know, Father's Day gift. Like, the thing is, even women that read the book, you know, women are intelligent enough to realize, oh, this, actually, I can apply this to my life as well.

Yeah.

Been a, you know, I've been the abuser and the perpetrator. You know, I'm a barber. I listen to men every day, you know, who have been abused. Men who are struggling to find time with their kids because they're going through a court system that is not set up for us. So I hear stories of men being abused as well, you know, and so the book is, for me, the truth is always twofold. You know, it's a double edged sword. If it applies to you, apply if the shoe fits, where if it doesn't, you know, move on.

And the great thing, I think, for a woman reading the book is that they can see, oh, I can set boundaries and this is what my life could look like and feel like. And so I actually think it's a catalyst for women to realize that this needs to stop. And if I need to make a change, then I will. Or in your case, I can challenge my man to go and do the work.

Exactly. And it's for me, it's. You know, we wrote it.

Directed at me because for me, growing up, watching your father abusing your mother, but then him being incarcerated in and out, you know, our dads are still our superheroes as children, you know, with our limited understanding. My dad was my superhero. So every time dad went in jail and got out, I sat there. We sat there praying, hoping and wishing when dad got out that he would be a different person, that somehow he would change and stop hitting mum. That day never came. That's the reason why we wrote the book and won it in prison. Because we know these little mats, little kids out there who are waiting their parents to come out healed and better, more present and available for them. That's why we wrote the book and we wanted it in prisons. It was for our children.

Amazing. And you're no longer Little Matt, although Little Matt will always be there. Yes, you are Matt, the leader. Where is your relationship with your dad?

Good question. People often ask me that question. I love my dad. You know, I love my dad. I forgive him, and I still forgive him because for me, forgiveness is a daily thing. And the reason why I forgive him comes back to what we were saying before about transmitting that pain if I continue to, well, dwell, and the bitterness and the grief of my childhood, that would eventually transmit to my children. And so the reason why I forgave and choose to forgive my dad daily, not for his sake, but for my sake, so I don't transmit that pain to my children. And how I act that out is I take my kids over to see my dad and give him some kai, some food every week, try and buy him his favorite island food, which he loves. And you know what? He's a better grandfather than he ever was a dad, you know, But I'm boundary, you know, I've learned new tools. I won't ever leave my children with him. I'm always in the, you know, the same vicinity, the same place where my children are running around being crazy. But, yeah, and I see a little the goodness in my dad's eyes, you know, I see a lot of regret, you know, how he wished he could have done it, been better. But his generation, you know, part of my healing journey was trying to understand why my dad perpetrated violence. And when I learned his story of origin, you know, losing his parents at the age of 12, you know, he lost his mom. And so as the only son in the islands, in Samoa, he had to be the bread earner, you know. And so with no education, he came to New Zealand, pretty much raised himself with his aunties and worked his whole life, have an education. And then living in aotearo in the 60s and 70s, going through the dawn raids and, you know, facing racism in a foreign land where he couldn't speak English properly, you know, that did a lot for him. And the shame that he would have carried, internalized himself, learning that, you know, his first time in prison was through a crime he committed, which happened in a pub. And so when they got out of prison, he refused to ever drink in public again, you know, but then his playground became home, and that's where he drank and that's where the abuse happened.

Yeah.

So. And I share that. Not to condone ever condone violence or accept it, but I share that to have an understanding. Okay. Me holding a gun, point to my dad's head and blaming him for my stuffed up childhood is not going to get me anywhere. I need to let go and forgive for my sake, not for his.

So powerful.

Thank you.

So, Matt, just before we wrap up, I've got another couple of questions I'd really love to ask you. So if she's not your rehab, who is she?

Great question.

That's actually the heart of this new campaign we're working on. If she's not your rehab, then who is she? And it's a question we pose out to men out there because we want to highlight. As a barber, I've been privileged to.

Meet in Krero and Telenor with so many men who are beautiful and not perpetrating violence, trying their best to change the narrative, even if they've, you know, even so many men have come from fatherless homes or homes of violence. So it's a question that we ask often because as indigenous people, women were such a tongue, a woman were a gift. They were sacred because they carried our offspring, they carried life. And so we always knew, we knew in our DNA that women were held to high esteem. Women were tapu, they were sacred. And so for me, my wife, she's not my rehab, she's home. And for a lot of men, she is purpose, she is life, she is taonga, she is tapu, she is sacred. And that's what this new campaign that we're working on in collaboration with an artist, Aotearoa artist called Mr. G, Graham Hoite, who's painting, we put out the question on our socials, if she's not your rehab, who is she? And we've had thousands of submissions from men all around the world, from New York to Ireland, from the uk, from Hawaii. Men just submitting words of who women are to them, who their mums are, who their daughters are, who their partners are. And it's been so beautiful, but so freaking hard because some of these submissions, I've, you know, me and my wife just sitting there crying like, this is so beautiful, seeing men talk about women like this, you know, and so what Mr. G is doing, he's painting, he's painted. We've chosen 100 words, taken out 100 words and painted these words onto canvases. And so we're using that because we want to highlight men who don't perpetrate violence, men who have changed the narrative, men who are working to be better on themselves and their families to hopefully influence culture and to normalize the conversation around uplifting and, you know, encouraging our women. Because women are so precious. You know, we wouldn't be here if not for women. One of the words, one of my close friends who's a university lecturer, he submitted. She is Whakapapa. You know, she's genealogy. She is my history. Because without women, we wouldn't be here.

That's so powerful. And I'd like to challenge the listener or the person watching right now to share who she is to them and so they can put it on their socials, whether it's on Instagram or LinkedIn or whatever channel you're on. And please tag sheisnotyourehab. Matt Brown. James Loughlin official. And I'd like to give a copy away to someone, a signed copy, because the work that you're doing is so important.

Thank you.

We need it. And she is Joy, she is love.

She is.

She is Gaia. She is the Earth. I believe that we're so fortunate to have the women in our lives. Our mothers, our grandmothers, our aunties, our partners, our daughters. So thank you so much.

Thank you, brother.

Really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

My pleasure. And one last question, if you don't mind, if we fast forward many, many years into the future. It's your last day here on Earth, and a very young grandchild perhaps says to you, granddad, if I was to lead my life on purpose, what should I do? What advice would you have for them?

Go and pick up the Bremen, serve. Go into their toilet and clean the toilet. Go and serve.

Find things to serve. Find places, find people to serve. Like, one thing that my wife and I.

We do with our children as we take them down to, you know, to the mission homes, to Salvation army, and you serve. Take them to the soup kitchen and serve. Because we want our children to grow up. You know, they're privileged. They have a mum and dad who love each other and not, you know, Dad's not physically beating up mum. And so how do we teach our kids? You know, they don't have our story of trauma, so how do we teach them resilience? So for me, our children need to learn resilience. And that starts with serving. You know, you get on your knees, you know, I mean, however, looks for different people, but for me, it's serving. Yeah.

Thank you so much for sharing. That's been a pleasure to connect.

Thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

Till next time.

Yeah, definitely.

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