Ukrainian Leadership with Roman Shulyar

Roman, I would just like to say a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Thank you, James. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you for having me here.

Thank you for joining us. It's the first time I've connected with someone in the Ukraine. And I just want to say that you've got the support of the world behind you. And today I want to understand more about what's going on, what you're going through, what what leadership looks like in the Ukraine and what leadership you need from the rest of the world. So I'd love to start with what was life like a few years ago? What did a day to day life look like for you prior to all of this?

You mean before 24th of February?

Yeah.

You know, it's very difficult for me to recollect that time because it's like.

I can compare it to when you have two rooms in your apartment. One room is the time before 24th of February and another room is the time we have now. And I can live in one of those rooms, but it is very difficult for me to go from one room to another. That passage is quite painful for me. And.

It'S easier when you just live with this life, concentrating on your present tasks without thinking of what it used to be, because it is absolutely different. And.

My mind just cannot really.

Tackle it. It cannot really understand what happened and how it could possibly happen in the 21st century, in.

When we all believe that the war, it is something that was left in the past 50 years ago and it will never repeat again. And personally, I was sure that all those warnings about possible Russian invasion, it is some political speculations and some PR from people who would like to draw attention. And all of a sudden, out of blue, it came true, unfortunately. And here we are now in the absolutely different world, in that absolutely different life, with totally different values, with.

Totally different everything.

Thank you for sharing that. And I want to ask you about those values because I connected with you on LinkedIn. You're a lawyer. That's what you do. That's your profession. That's what you'd set out to do in life. Now you're doing something very different. So you talk about values. What's different with your values now compared to what they used to be?

Well, I trust that the war.

If.

The war has any positive size, if we can say so, then it is all about reevaluating important things in your life. Because.

Before the war, when I worked as a lawyer and it was a usual work of a law firm lawyer, a partner, it was like 24 7, with some thresholds which you need to achieve, with some.

Interesting deals which you want to close, with some prospective projects which you want to develop, etc. Etc. And.

All these things are really important. But amid those things, it often happens that you forget what is the most important in your life, right? And this is actually the life itself. It is actually the life. It is your beloved ones. It is just no common things like when you.

Wake up in the morning and you drink your coffee, you breathe the fresh air, you can walk, you can meet friends, you can go to visit your parents. All those things are really absolutely important. And.

When the war started, we just understood that this is what we need to fight for, right? This is not the war for Zelensky. This is not the war for any political mottos. This is not the war for. I don't know, something that people have invented. This is the war for.

This is the war for people, for our people, for our people, for my daughter, for my parents, for.

Other people, for my friends whom I love and whom I am fighting for.

And what is life like now? What have you seen? What has the last few months been like? What have been the greatest challenges for you?

Well, it's, you know, it's a period of total challenges, like each day new challenges. Obviously the most difficult it was in the first days because.

The war came all of a sudden. And I would say that my decision to join the army also came quite unexpectedly, even to me. Because before the war I had nothing to do with the military. I have never served in the army. I have.

Been.

Weapon or anything military. I would even say that on the 24th of February, I was totally confused. I didn't know what to do and where to go. And when I was.

I had Chinese at my office because my clients asked to sign some documents. I had a power of attorney from several clients, and they wanted me to do certain things. I was walking along the street, I saw the big trucks with.

Soldiers in them. And most people were standing along the street and waving their hands to those soldiers. And I was waving. I started waving too. And all of a sudden I understood that.

I should not be standing here and waving like a school girl. I should be the one that is in those trucks, because that is what I am. I am 38 years old, I am healthy, I am strong, and I am responsible for the lives of the people whom I love and I will protect them.

And when you think about leadership, what is leadership? When you think of great leadership, what does that look like?

Sorry, Come again? That question, gang, when you think of.

Leadership, what do you think of what is great leadership?

That is.

Good question from perspective of this time and of the war. Because you know, I never understood how important it is, the leadership during the war. And now I can say that it is absolutely everything because heavy weaponry, it is critical, it is very important. But.

As it usually goes, people are most important in any person. And here, when you have lots of people, it's very important for someone to guide them, for someone to tell them what to do. And there is, there needs to be a very specific plan, very clear instructions, very definite orders. And.

This is also not just about the orders and instructions. This is also about morale. Because as you can imagine, it is, it is difficult here, right? Sometimes it's easier, sometimes it's very difficult. It's. It's difficult to.

When you are being shelled, right? When you can do nothing, when your submachine gun, which you practice and practice and practice once again, it can decide nothing because you are being shelled. And everything you can do, you just can hide and pray that the shell will not get you. It is also difficult to wait when you are waiting, when you do not have a command to move to the front line. And you need to wait for the command because this is a war, right? You need to obey the orders. And sometimes waiting is even more difficult than fighting. And all these things, they require, I would say, inspiration, they require support, they require some motivation and.

All the things they absolutely depend on. Commander of the unit. So without these things, the unit will not be operative and.

There will be no use of it at all. There will be no use of people, there will be no use of heavy weaponry, of any weaponry whatever. So that is what leadership is here. And it's interesting to observe how.

The leaders are self made here, right? So it doesn't matter whether you have MBA here, it doesn't matter whether you have college degree here, but it matters whether you are brave enough to take responsibility, to lead people, to tell them, hey, I know what to do, I know how it will be. I know what we can do and what we will do. You listen to me and everything will be fine. So leadership is really the thing that drives the army.

That's huge. Thank you for sharing that. And you talk about that courage and you know, courage is something we need when we're fearful. So how do you continue to face those fears? How do you continue to step up and fight and protect? What is it that drives you to push through the fear?

You're not asking easy Questions. Right.

No.

Sorry, Roman.

Okay.

Well, I would say.

This.

You do not have enough courage for all the situations. So it's a mixture, right? It's a mixture of your motivation, it's a mixture of your courage, it's a mixture of.

Your ability to risk.

Because sometimes when it's really difficult, you just recollect what you are fighting for, whom you are fighting for, and really helps you. I remember the first situation which was probably the most emotional and difficult to me.

When I was enrolled in the army on the 25th of February, and we were waiting for us to receive our weapon, and there was some.

Delay. And then all of a sudden, in the middle of the night, we were all waking up and we were urgently given our weapon. And we were ordered to take our positions near the windows. It was the building that we were in. And our commander told us that we are awaiting attack by Russian tanks. And.

We clearly realized at that moment that with our submachine guns, we can do very little, really, against those tanks when they come there. It was in Kiev. It was, I think, the end of February. And that was the moment when I thought to myself, it was really scary, right? So my. My knees trembled and I was holding that gun, which I called it, like, for the first time, because I never had practice with it. And.

So there was no assurances, there was no guarantee, there was nothing, right? But I thought to myself, okay, so actually, even now you have a choice. Either to run, to escape, to hide somewhere, or you can stand to the end if you have something to stand to the end. And I. And it came very clearly to me that I have something to fight for again. These are my family. This is my land. And if I do not fight for this, what is life worth? What is my life worth? Worth nothing, right? And I don't want my life to be worth nothing, right? So I want to fight for it because it worth something for me.

Thank you, Roman. And what does it mean to be Ukrainian? What is a Ukrainian? What does it mean to you when you say, I am Ukrainian? What does that mean to you?

Actually, we still reassess in answer to that question, because before the war, no one understood how united we can be, how strong we can be. And at the moment, well, I'm proud to be Ukrainian. Well, probably that is what we associate the word Ukrainian with now is pride, right? So we are proud to be Ukrainians because.

We are proud of each other, right? So you are standing, you are fighting, and you are looking to the comrade in arms who is standing nearby. You and you're proud of him and you, like, fight for each other and that is really great.

I love that. And what does the rest of the world need to know? What do they need to know that's going on? And what do you need from the rest of the world? For the person that's listening right now? What does Ukraine need?

Well, I think.

Everyone here at Ukrainians request for heavy weaponry, for artillery, for.

Airplanes, etc. Etc. But I would like to focus on something other.

Previously, before that war, when I hear about conflicts in Syria, in Afghanistan, in various other countries, I always thought, oh, it is so far away. And those countries, well, they are sort of special countries that probably there always have been conflicts there and there is nothing strange that they are now in another conflict. And probably people got used there to these conflicts. They got used die and to fight and to die. And that is the reality of this world. Like.

In my mind, the world was divided like there are.

Well, probably I will use that word now, admitting that that was my mistake.

In my mind, the world was divided like civilized countries in which the war was impossible and uncivilized countries, right? And I.

Had no friends, no connections in those uncivilized countries. So it was to me like that war meant nothing to us. We had no concern about it, we had no connection to it. So why do I need to bother about it, right? I need to think about my KPIs, my thresholds, etc. Etc. But. And I'm afraid that probably there are some people in the world who in usa, New Zealand, in Europe, who might be thinking likewise now that Ukraine, that is probably some conflict country and there have always been some problem there. So that is absolutely different story. It will never happen in our country. Well, I wish everyone that you will never know what the war is. But I can say that on the individual level, everyone must recognize and understand now that.

Even now in the 21st century, with all the international law and international organizations and international treaties and whatever, the war is possible, and the war is death and destruction. And it is so possible and so close that you can never imagine how close it is. And.

It starts in our heads. It starts in our.

Tolerating, tolerating the discrimination, tolerating the cruelty, tolerating what happens in other countries. The world is so close now. It is very close. And we see it now on the example of our war, how close it is, how many people all over the world it affects. And when everyone understands it clearly, when everyone expresses his or her position about unacceptability of the wars, of these conflicts, of these positions, like of Putin and his gang, I think that the world will change. So it starts here. It starts in our mind. And as I said, I admit that I was absolutely wrong before this war. And I was one of those who was probably. I can say the reason, right, why it happens, because again, if you try to say that, it does not concern you. It concerns everyone. It concerns absolutely everyone.

I 100% agree. And I think living here in New Zealand, we are so far geographically from everything, and I think it's very easy for us to think, well, we're just so far it wouldn't happen. But this world is so small, and we've got to appreciate it that it can happen. And it does happen, and it is happening. I put my boy to bed tonight. He's six years old, and he says, dad, who are you speaking to tonight? And I said, I'm speaking to a man called Roman, and he lives in the Ukraine. And the first thing he said is, dad, could the war come here? And I says, it could. And he says, what would you do? I would do my best to stop it and protect you. And my little boy, Finn, he has Ukrainian heritage, his mother's Canadian, and a lot of family came over from the Ukraine many years ago. So he's very familiar with Ukrainian music, Ukrainian food like pierogi and cabbage roll and holpsy, all the good stuff. So Ukraine has a special place in our heart. It's a beautiful culture, great people, tremendous music, and we just hope for peace. We hope for you guys to have your lives back. What are you hoping for? What's in your heart? What's deep in your heart that you hope for your loved ones?

Well, it's easy. We want the war to be over. All our hopes, they.

They are connected with our victory. And I do not have any. Any plans for future. I do not anticipate how long this war is because it is very difficult, right, to think about anything apart from this war. So now we are fighting, and we are fighting to the end, and we will make sure that the end will be Ukrainian victory. So that is our hope, that what we are striving for.

You've got all of our prayers, you know, from all around the world, people are with you and they support you. And it's this kind of communication, letting us know what's going on and letting us know how we can help. I mean, it's so vital that the information that you have and experiences you have, that you share that. And I'm just Incredibly grateful that you've done that. And where would you say you've learned to be courageous? Where have you learned to be a leader? Who taught you those things?

Another difficult question.

I don't know. That is about.

I'm sure that everything takes its roots from.

What you want, from what you wish, from what you feel. And.

Like in 2014, when we had Maidan, I did not participate in it because I. Well, for various reasons, right? So I did not want. And I did not participate. I did not go outside, I did not take part in demonstrations.

And when it was over, I was sorry for that. Right. I understood that that was my mistake. When this war started, I understood that I can do nothing but enroll to the Ukrainian army and be one of those brave soldiers who fight for our land. Because that was my feeling, that was my desire. It was not.

Result of any difficult, you know, thought process. It was not a very difficult decision. It was the only decision that I could take at that moment. And I'm still very happy to be here. I'm still very proud to be here. And I would say that the courage is something secondary. It is secondary because you always need to try to do what you want to do. And I would frankly tell you that.

Here, when I have some free time, I'm also reconsidering what I did before. And I already started thinking of perhaps doing something differently. I have not made my mind yet what I want to do, how I want to do. But it is all about doing what you want and realization of your dreams, making your dreams come true. Because life is so short and here you understand it. So when you want it, when you want something very bad, you need to do it. You need to do it, because otherwise no one will do it for you.

And.

That'S it. You need to know about courage, because courage will come in the process.

100%. And Roman, when this war is over and your life is back to normal, I want to invite you to New Zealand. And I host a leadership event every year. And I want to invite you as a special guest and I want you to be a guest that can speak about your experiences around what it means to live life on purpose and to go after your dreams and to fight for what matters. And as soon as the war is over, we will connect and we will get you to New Zealand.

James, many thanks. I gladly accept your invitation. I have never been to New Zealand. I will come with a neat haircut, with some nice slides, and with some speech, which I will be preparing for two or three weeks. And I will sound and look much better than I do now.

No, I'm excited, very excited to see you. And I've got one last question. Roman, I know you guys have got lots that you're dealing with, but one last question for you. And if we were to fast forward to the end of your life and somebody very young, maybe a grandchild, was to say to you, how do I lead my life on purpose, what advice would you have for them?

You need to listen to your heart. You need to listen to your heart.

It's. You know.

We live in an age of abundance of information. I would even say we have, sometimes we have too much information or probably there is cannot be too much information, but you need to work with that information properly, right? So you need to take knowledge, you need to take some useful things from that information. But you should make sure that that information does not change your feelings and your desires, right? So when everyone tells you that it is very good to work in it. Now I have nothing against.

Is great, but when everyone says that it is popular, it is fine. You can make lots of money on that. Well, before choosing it, you need to think very carefully whether this is your area or not, whether you love gadgets and digits and math and whatever else you need to do it or not. Otherwise, if you. Otherwise you deceive yourself and.

That can lead to a life tragedy, right? When you live the whole life and try to build some career.

In some 20, 30, 40 years, you just realize that all your life you are doing not the thing you wanted to.

You always need to listen to your heart and not be deceived by popular things.

Thank you. That's really powerful. And our conversation tonight has landed in my heart and I know there'll be many listeners that will feel the same way. We feel like we're there with you. We wish we could help you and we will help you in any way that we can. So I just want to send you our prayers, our thoughts, and we are praying for that the war to be over and that the great leadership that you and your friends show, you know that you're rewarded for that leadership and you get the freedom that you deserve.

James, thank you very much.

I would like to extend my gratitude to you and to New Zealand for your support for being with us. It is very important for us. We appreciate that it is. You know, you feel twice stronger when you know that the world is behind you. So we appreciate that. Please stand with us and you will soon see our victory.

I'm looking forward to sending you much much love and support. And let's talk again. Stay in touch.

Sure. Thank you, James.

Thank you so much, Roman. Take care, my friend.