We Took a Couple’s Therapy Session - Breaking ‘Pursue-Withdraw’ Dynamics with Dr. Victoria Thompson

Would you go on a podcast with your partner and have a couples therapy session? Well, essentially, that's what's about to happen. So Caroline is my life partner. She also runs the podcast and the business and she's never been on the podcast before. And we thought, you know what, it would be really interesting to sit down with Dr. Victoria and talk about communication. We run a business together, we run a house together, we've got a couple of fur babies, we've got a little boy. There's lots of things that go on in our life that require communication and sometimes we nail it and other times we don't. So you're in for a treat. And we wanted to share this because we figure that most of you that listen are in a relationship with someone, whether it's an intimate partner, a friend, a family member, we've all got relationships and also professional ones. And at the end of the day, communication is the difference that makes the difference. So I hope you enjoy today's episode. The Lead On Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at NZMortgages Co NZ. Dr. Victoria, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose Podcast.

Thank you.

Today's a very unique day because I've got two new people here in front of me, one being my partner, Caroline. Caroline, welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thank you. So weird.

It feels weird, eh?

It does.

Usually you're on the other end editing.

I will still be on the other end editing.

This is true. First time sitting in the seat and we're really excited about this. Victoria, you're a clinical psychologist based here in Christchurch and I look at leading on purpose as something that requires lots of different components and often we think, drive hard, be really committed, be obsessed with your thing. But I actually, I think off field, you know, healthy relationships and healthy, well being health help us perform better on field. And so I thought it would be amazing for us to sit down and chat together and Caroline kindly agreed to come on the show for the first time.

So first up, thank you. Second, do you mind sharing your expertise and what you love to help people with?

Sure. Well, thanks for having me, guys. And Caroline, I know that this is your first time here, so we can do this together.

So, yeah, I'm a clinical psychologist. I am based in Christchurch and I also work remotely online seeing individuals and couples. I've got a bit of an eclectic mix of things that I am interested in and work with. One of them being couples therapy. Another being I work in eating disorders as well with people who suffer with eating Disorders. And I also do just sort of general individual therapy for things like anxiety and depression and also forensic psychology, and that is working with people who have offended. So I do reports and things like that.

Yeah.

In my past, I did used to work at the prison, but now I don't work there, but I still work in that area.

Yeah, it's really cool.

Yeah, it's incredible. And I guess for me, I want to think about one of the key components and I look at this because I've done this really badly. And Caroline can probably agree with this. Communication, I think it's literally the starting point of success or failure. And often we can bring everything back to how was that communicated? Or was it communicated? And, you know, for me, I always thought communication was verbal, but often, like, as I'm learning, it's more. There's intonations, there's body language, there's the things that are unsaid. And when I work with high performers, like, often, I see their biggest problems coming from communication. And when I look at my own relationship, I would say my biggest challenges come from communication. How do you feel about that?

I think it's both of our biggest challenges. Different ways of communicating, like. Yeah, yeah, very different ways of communicating.

Totally. You grew up South Africa. Yeah, I grew up in Northern Ireland. Two whole different views of the world.

Yeah.

And our dynamic's quite interesting.

Yeah.

We've got Finn, who's our son, and he calls Caroline bonus mum. We run a business together. We literally spend all the time together. It's.

Yeah.

Full noise.

Yeah, it is. And we just. I guess my communication is over communication. And then yours is a little bit like, we're done.

Move forward.

Yeah, we're done.

We're moving forward.

That's it. No, no, no. We have five more hours. I've got a debris. So, Yeah, I guess that's where we have. We've done a lot of work on it, though. But there's probably still more work to be done.

Always. Yeah, always. And I think that that is the most common thing that couples struggle with is communication. And like you said, it's the cornerstone. The cornerstone of your relationship as well as your interpersonal relationships outside of your intimate one in your workplace. You know, we can. We're always trying to strive and learn to communicate.

Yeah.

Better. And I think that there's a few things that you. You touched on, Jason, I think would be really good for us to kind of circle back to if you want.

To use your.

Business talk. But one of them is about.

You know, that usually you kind of focus on high performance and that side of things. And what you said was, it's also really important that we. We look at the other parts of us, you know, our relationships. And that's so useful to talk about because how hard is it when you've had an argument with your partner and you go off to work for the day? Yeah, it's so, you know, in most. Most cases, it is so front of mind. Yeah, it does. And your usual way of connecting with your partner throughout the day, as we do now that we have phones and email, etcetera, Those things can be thrown off as well. So the usual pattern in which you maintain connection with your partner after an argument is thrown off. So it has such an impact not only at home, but also at work. The other thing that you talked about and I have now forgotten.

Yeah, that's okay. Because I talk a lot. That's my problem, being Irish. So do I. Yeah, so I do.

Oh, I got it, Caroline. You talked about the dynamic of you talk a lot and he doesn't talk much.

And that is in an argument.

In an argument. And that is something that. That is super common. So there's a couple of things that maybe we could explore a bit more.

Let's do it.

Yeah. So in terms of your experience of communication at home, does that feel for you guys? Like, that the style in which you communicate with each other is different to the style that you might communicate with at the office if you're having conflict, for example?

100%.

Oh, mine is the same.

Is that.

Yeah, and, yeah, definitely the same for me. For you, different. Yeah, yeah.

To me, I guess I probably have a disease to please sometimes where it's like always seeking harmony. And so I've. The CliftonStrengths did an assessment around, like, different strengths, and harmony came out as number one. And I thought, oh, that's so good. Like, that's such an amazing thing. I say, well, when I dig into it, it causes me so much conflict because I'm always looking to just, no, that's fine. Just move on. Don't worry about it. And I would probably do that a lot professionally and struggle to draw boundaries. And then personally, I probably just go, let's just move on. Yeah, it's fine. Let's go. I'm done. It's all good. I don't want to sit and explore it in detail. So there probably is a bit of.

A nuance for me that harmony looks a bit different at home versus where it does at work. At work, you find a Sense of harmony from pleasing others at home. The harmony is found in perhaps the same thing in a strange way where you don't want to rock the boat. He doesn't want to or upset you.

Yeah.

So it's the same thing as just playing out differently.

Yeah. So instead of saying something, he'll just be like, no, it's all fine, let's just move on. And then it could be weeks later and then it comes up. He'll. It will like subtly come up in conversation. We didn't move on then. It's still there. We should have dug and we should have got to the bottom of it. But I think that's uncomfortable for you to say.

Confrontational, almost.

Yeah.

Yeah. Whereas for me it's like, let's just over share and over communicate until there's no more to come out and then, then we can put it together again.

So you're fearful about saying something at the. At the time. You're fearful about it coming up another and rearing its head another time.

I struggle in conflict. I struggle to let go.

Yeah.

So if it's not like fully resolved, so like we could have an argument and maybe chat about it for 5, 10 minutes and then James is like, cool, we're done. And then I'll just sit there and think about it and be like, no, but we're not done.

And then I get frustrated at that going, I thought, well, we're done.

Like, we're good, still there, still there. Until like, I've. It's almost like I've got to peel back layers of an argument till I'm at the bottom of it.

What happens if you. What would happen if you didn't?

I would. I sit in it and then I ice them out. Yeah. So my natural. And I've done this in work, I've done it with friendships, previous relationships. I just completely ice people out and I'll just be like, no, I'm done. And I'll. I could. I think I've ignored you for like a day before. In previous relationships, it's been like sometimes a week. Not ignoring, but just really cold shouldering, which I know is very unkind. And while I'm doing it, I'm hating doing it, but I just had no other way of figuring out how to communicate. Like I didn't have the skill set. And then. Yeah, learned Red went for therapy and now it's almost like for me not to do that, we have to completely over communicate.

Yeah. So. So you sort of. You, you over adjusted. Yes. Perhaps you feel like you over adjusted and then you.

I think it's a. It's. I much prefer.

It's better.

Yeah, I do.

Yeah.

It's better than what would have. Interesting. What would have happened before you did that work? I mean, you're.

I'm stubborn.

You're stubborn.

I'm stubborn too.

You're both stubborn. Both tendency to withdraw. It shows up in different ways.

Yeah.

But back before you did the work.

Yeah.

What happened was there when you separation.

Like physically, geographically, like, okay, I'll head out. See you later. Have a great day.

Yeah.

And I would just go and get on with things as if, like, I just gotta go and.

Yeah.

Give Caroline space to be. And then when I come back, I'm sure it'll be fine.

And it was worse.

But what interesting. Though. Caroline did try to repair. So I would get a text from Caroline within an hour.

Yeah.

Saying, hey, I'm really sorry about that. Or, hey, can we chat about that later? And then I would get annoyed. I'm like, that's not a text. That's a. That's a. In person. We should be talking, not texting. So, like, she was trying to repair.

But not the way you thought.

Not on my terms or whatever. So I got my backup about that. I was like, please don't.

What did it mean to you when she text instead of send it to you in person?

I like the fact that she was acknowledging, hey, this is like, there's something not right here that we need to talk about. But then I felt like, oh, that's not a text. So I felt like this is. It's almost like not an easy option now. But it's like, it's not sitting here and doing this. It's just like, let's move on, and by tonight it'll be fine. So part of me liked it, and part of me was like, oh, God, I don't know if that's the way we should do it.

Easy road. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that is often something that can crop up for us when we have arguments with our partner. You know, even if they.

Do the behavior that we want or that we like, sometimes it still doesn't feel like it's good enough or satisfying enough. Because often it represents there's something else underneath that. Because what you're saying is I liked that she reconnected with me and repaired. I don't like the way she did it because to me, that meant something else. So it wasn't what it was on the surface, which was this was a bid for reconnection. And yeah, for you it was like, well, no, because it's not quite. I don't. It's not in the way that I want it. So therefore I interpret it as meaning.

You'Re avoiding or clearly, you know, this isn't as important to you as it is to me and it doesn't deserve a face to face conversation. So it's the meaning making even though what you actually want happened. Happened.

Yeah, true.

And that's probably something recently we've chatted about where I've said, actually, if you want to text, I think that's cool. I think I've started to come around the fact that that's your way of like, let's. Because I'm not actually that great at repairing in terms of like, I can see there's a disconnect. We've had a disagreement and it's never verb, like, it's never aggressive, it's never.

Explosive or anything quite level headed when we're arguing too. And like, it's like a debate. It is like a presidential debate. Flower point of view.

Which one are you then?

I'm Kamala.

You call me Trump.

I love that this is going to turn an argument.

Not at all.

That's hilarious. I hope it does. We can play it out.

I should have put more makeup on. That's what I should have done.

But what I struggle to do then is go, okay, yeah, we're butting heads. Let's just like have some space, we'll come back. And then I struggle to, like, have the initiation of that, like, Caroline is off. No one goes, hey, should we chat? Like, should we sit down and like, yeah, we should do that.

Never used to be that way though. I used to just be like, nope, you can come to me. And now I'm just like, actually, no. I think as I'm getting older, I'm realizing I really want you close and I don't want to push people away because I've done that. It's not worked to this point and I want to break that. So for me to get over it. And no one likes feeling like you feel in an argument.

Well, some people.

Some people do. I have up to this point, I think, been comfortable in it.

Comfortable perhaps, rather than enjoy. Yeah. And so much of that is dependent on our context as well. The environments or families that we grew up in. Whether, you know, some families are really, I don't know, conflict forward and it's normalcy. Some families are really conflict avoidant. And so that stuff plays right into the way that we communicate. Even as grown adults with our own children and relationships.

Yeah.

And I think what you were talking about is something you used to do, which would probably call something called withdrawing. Warmth.

Yeah. Taking love away.

Yeah.

Not kind.

Well, it's not that it's unkind because it's protective. It's a defense mechanism.

Yeah.

The purpose of. Of it sometimes is to cause harm, and that's because you hurt me. I hurt you.

Yeah.

But it's not unkind. That's a judgment.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because it's just a survival thing. Ultimately, we want to protect our well being and our hearts. And if you feel rejected or abandoned or criticized by someone else, then that can be a really common reaction as we. We become cold or withdrawn.

Yeah.

Another reason for that also can be to try and ineffectively bring people toward.

Yes. Yeah. In my mind is if I withdraw, you'll be like, no, no, no, come back. But really, who wants to come back? There's someone who's just like, don't come near me.

And often when we're trying to repair, I'll say, would you like a hug? And you're like, no. I said, you sure? You've told me in the past, like, when we're trying to repair, you'd like me to be close and just hold you. Nope. And then I go away. And then I'm like. And then later you'll say, well, you.

Should have just hugged me.

Yeah, you should have just hugged me. I don't know that I hear that you don't want it and you do want it.

I know I'm lying to you with my words. It's not. Yeah, it's very misleading.

But you're not trying to do it. I can see it.

I'm not trying to do it. I just don't know how to.

You're too activated, perhaps, for that moment of closeness. And I think that that's okay because maybe you might say, like, not right now. I'm just really a little bit activated. Let me calm down. And then. And then later, can we please resume? Or can I come back for that hug when I feel ready?

Yeah.

Because you know, that's not about. She wants it, of course, but it's perhaps the. The physical response, the nervous system is. If your defense mechan mechanism has always been stay away. To have when you're activated, to come straight in. Sometimes that might be too terrifying, too overwhelming.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's helpful.

The dynamic that you talked about, we call the pursuer withdraw dynamic. It's, I would say.

90% of couples that I work with have that exact dynamic.

Wow.

If that makes you feel any better. Yeah, no, you withdraw.

Okay, interesting.

Maybe you both used to withdraw, but now you pursue.

Yeah, that's very interesting.

Yeah.

Wow, we're getting better.

Yeah.

When he withdraws, what happens for you?

I feel myself now wanting to withdraw and then being like, no, don't do that. That never works. And then I sort of. I feel like I nag you maybe, and that makes it worse. And then he can sort of get a little, like, snappy. And I'm like, oh, and the minute you're snappy, I'm like, this. Nothing can happen. Now. I'm gonna leave the room. I'll go do something else. And then it's. You're pretty good now, like, within five minutes, you come find me and you go, I'm so sorry that I snapped. And then we can talk about it. But yeah, when he withdraws, I definitely start going spiraling a little, like, oh, my God, he's withdrawing. How long will this last? I've got to run after him and fix it.

And I can literally feel it in my body. Like, that snappiness. That's like a short responses, like, nope, Yep, cool. Yep, fine. Or I'll go into these big words, and I'm like, what am I doing?

This is a thing. He is very careful. I can always tell if we're in an argument or if I've jig at him because all of a sudden the thesaurus is out and he is throwing words. And I'm like, you've gotten really clever all of a sudden, trying to win a fight. I'm not gonna come back with anything clever.

What is that? Is there something about that?

It's.

Yeah.

Again, big words. Not uncommon. I think.

That in my experience of it, it's about defense. Again, maybe men are socialized to be, you know, logical and not be emotive. And so therefore, when you are triggered, which is what's happening, because you're probably noticing in your body tension, you are only able to give brief responses because you're probably worried that if I say any more than that, you know, I might lose my shit emotionally.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah.

Lose my clue. So it's. You're shutting it down or so you're going that way.

Yeah.

The other way you're going is, let me think about this logically and let me problem solve this. Because your goal, from what I'm hearing, is, don't escalate. I don't want conflict.

100%.

He doesn't want.

So you withdraw and so you then start talking to her like it's a business meeting.

Yes.

Because that's not where emotion. We don't get it. It's just business, baby.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm like, yeah.

And I see what I'm doing it.

Yeah.

And you're like, what's beneath that? Right.

Yeah. So you can't hug. He can't get a motive. Right. Then when he's too activated.

Yeah.

But you both can do it when, five minutes later.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It depends.

It used to be a lot longer.

Oh, my God. Yeah, it used to be quite a.

Lot longer, but like a year, probably a year and a half. Two years ago you started reading a lot. And as you were reading every morning, you'd be sharing what you're reading about. And a lot of it was psychology and vagus nerve and like.

Yeah. Understanding stuff. Yeah. And then therapy and stuff has helped a lot to.

Yeah.

To. Yeah. Try and break that cycle of icing out. And then also learning when. When I don't feel a fight is done. I struggled a lot because I thought that I was holding on to it just for the sake of having something told onto and fight about. And then learning in therapy that I was holding on because it. I actually didn't feel it was resolved. And that's okay. Like, I'm allowed to keep it and be like, no, look, we haven't fully figured that out. And that was. Okay.

Uncomfortable, I must admit, but it's. It's very okay.

But then we did, like, it took a while for you to accept that that was okay. Not that you told me it wasn't, but like, for you to actually, like go into it with me. And now you are pretty good at diving into the conflict a little bit with me.

Well, even emotions, like, I didn't realize how numb I was. And it was actually through Finn, our son, who we're talking about emotions with him because I realized when I look at depression, mental health statistics in New Zealand, it's pretty terrible. And when our kids get to teenage stage, it's like horrifically bad our stats. So I want to get to the bottom of what can help him. And I started to understand, like, actually males struggle to connect with emotion, label emotion, make room for emotion. And so we got this pack and it was just a simple kids emotion card pack. And it was phenomenal. And I started.

It was really good.

I couldn't describe it. So on the front it tells you the emotion and in the back it tells you. Describes the emotion?

Yeah.

I couldn't describe the emotion. Like, I knew what the emotion was like. Oh, yeah, I know what that is, but I had no words for that.

How does it feel in your body?

Yeah. It's so really an interesting point, because when I work with men on their own, that is a common experience. If I ask them to say, you know, when you're angry, what does it feel like? Or when you experience anxiety or stress, does it feel like. And it's almost like I just. I understand logically what the word means. I'm really finding it hard to tap into my experience of it. Whereas in general, women are much more able to tell me an example of when they felt like this or tell me exactly, you know, that the sadness felt like a weight in my chest or that. This kind of thinking feeling in my stomach. So that definitely is.

From my experience, at least. A.

And.

And I know that the research supports that men have less of a vocabulary for emotions. Hopefully, we're on some pathway to change with that. You know, even experiencing your own benefits of. Of doing that. Through Finn.

Yeah.

Yeah. He's already, like, miles ahead of me.

Yes.

At 8, I did not understand emotions the way he does. And, like, he will come home, like, be lying in bed, and we put him to bed, and then he'll come out and say, I'm really anxious. And he'll explain what it feels like, say where he feels it, and then we'll all just, like, come up with, I don't know, not a solution, but we'll just. It's okay to feel that way, and then lie with him and do some breath work and.

Wow.

And then he moves through it, and it's like, he is one lucky kid. It's really cool to see. So hopefully more boys have access to that.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And what's it like for you to make space for Finn's anxiety?

I find it really worrying. I get really attached to his emotions. That'd be fair to say.

Yeah.

If there's something wrong in his world or he's sick or like, yesterday he fractured his foot, and I feel it for him, and I worry, and I know that I can only control the controllables, but there's something like, as a dad, I just. I don't know.

Yeah.

I get a struggle, actually.

To not just be in his emotion with him. And so I think Caroline helps to actually create a space where we can actually just look at it together and observe his emotions, because I think we're.

Also conditioned to view those times as threatening. You know, difficult times, but what we know is that that's just the reality of life. That we have times where things are harder for us or we're a bit sadder or more anxious and that we. So often we view that as this terrible thing and threatening and we must make it go away, but we can't, of course. It's just part of. Of life. And I think what sounds like what you guys are doing is beautiful. It's about. Yeah, gosh, sometimes we do feel anxious. And here's some things that you can do. I can't make it go away for you, but I can sit with you and be there. And here's some skills that might help.

Yeah, we definitely want to teach him not to try and, like, get rid of the emotion. And we've been telling him all of, like, that pack has so many different cards and saying all of those. It's like, it's our job and our experience as humans to feel all of those. And if you're feeling them, I feel like if you're feeling the negat. Negative. Not negative, but labeled as negative emotions. Anxiety, anger, fear. If you're feeling all of that, that's quite healthy because then it might mean that when you feel the joy, it's going to be all the more beautiful. And that's sort of how I'm trying to look at it, because I've definitely been inclined to be.

Not pessimistic, but more then. More so than you.

Yeah. I'm very like positive psychology. What's possible, what's positive? Let's move towards it. You know, I want to avoid all that stuff. I get away from that stuff. Like, let's just go there.

Yeah. So now we're trying to teach Finn that you should have it all. Yeah. And if you are having it all, great. You're human. Well done. Welcome. It's going to be tough, but.

Good.

Luck with that one, buddy.

That.

Go be good.

Well, I mean, there is a. That idea of toxic positivity 100% that we don't set people up for.

People expect that we should be happy all the time, and that's what we strive for. But true happiness I don't believe actually really exists. I think we have moments of happiness, but there's no end. There's no end point. And I wonder, just thinking about the idea of endpoint.

When does the. When you talk about. It's not resolved for me. How does it. How do you know when something is truly resolved?

I just feel like I can be me again. Right. If that Makes sense. So when we're in an argument, there's less of me that's allowed to be there. But when it's fully resolved.

I'm naturally quite playful and really silly.

And I'm not like that. If it's not resolved and I can't be like that, I can't make room for play.

So when it is resolved, I know it's resolved because play comes back in instantly.

Do you think that in both of your experiences when you say it's resolved, you believe that at that time that the issue is solved and that's it, or is it that. That you have somehow found room for acceptance of it where it is?

I think, yeah, I don't think it's ever like done and resolved, but I've. He's acknowledged my side and validated that what I'm feeling is okay and allowed. And same for you, I think. But for me, I think that's more important that you like it. That's okay to feel that way.

Right. So you, you feel safe again.

Yeah.

And then you can be playful.

I can be playful.

You don't have to shut him out anymore.

No, yeah, yeah. And I can be playful with everyone.

Yeah, yeah. So I can come back out now?

Yeah. Cuz I can swear. I definitely hide away. I'm like, yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, once it's resolved, I can come back out and play. Yeah.

The playfulness, how do you guys use that in arguments, both of you? From my conversations with you thus far, you're both quite playful. Good sense of humor.

Thank you.

I can see it between the two of you arguments.

I often laugh at him when the vocabulary comes out like you're doing it.

And then I'm like, oh God, big.

Words are coming out at me.

And what happens, what happens when she does that?

Often?

Often I will actually withdraw more.

Yeah.

He denies that.

She's highlighting it. I'm like, what? That's a normal word. And afterwards I'm like, you're an idiot, James. Why did you use that big ridiculous word?

Yes, I definitely withdraw more. I would say, on average sometimes I might be like, oh, you're right. But I would say 95% of the time, go. That's a word. I can use the word. And then I wind myself up more about it to the point where it's like, hey, we just need space.

Yeah.

And I don't ever. Like, the playfulness comes out and I can't seem to catch myself because I know it might trigger him. But then I'm just like, I'll do it anyway because it's fun. And then.

Yeah.

And then it triggers.

Yeah. Okay.

You to catch it also.

I could catch it. You know what I mean? Rather than, like, trying to push it away and run. I could probably learn to, like, oh, you're right. Like, that could be a trigger for me to change courses.

I think it might come across as, like, maybe teasing, you know, because I'm just trying to make light of a situation. But maybe it comes across as, like, this isn't serious.

I think it's a tough one because playfulness can be so helpful as well in arguments when you know what those moments where it has changed your trajectory. How do you. Yeah. How do you make room for playfulness? That it doesn't feel like she's making fun of you or criticism. And so there. Maybe there is a slight. And forgive me if I'm wrong here, a slight need to push at that moment.

Yeah.

So then it's not true playfulness.

No.

It's more about.

Mocking, perhaps, or maybe it doesn't consciously feel like that.

Yeah. And it does come across as teasing, then.

Teasing.

Yeah.

Yeah. But there are times where, if you set it up right, it can be really helpful. But that's helpful when it's where we. When we remember which is the most critical thing. If you take anything from today is it is me and you.

Yeah.

Not me versus you.

Yes.

Yeah. And often when we are arguing, I'll be like, I'm on your team.

Yes.

And you say that I often will come in.

Yeah.

Because I think, like, before you've said you've come in and it's. You've attacked me, and I'm like, no, no, I don't mean to attack you. And I, like, I am sorry if it's coming across that way, but I'm on your team. I'm just trying to fix it. Well, not fix it, but resolve it and talk about it. And when you have that, like, you're attacking, that's when I know you're not ready. And I'll just come back another time. But, yeah, definitely. Always saying we're on the same team.

Yeah. You're very good at that. And there's probably something along the lines of when Caroline is trying to resolve it. I think there's a part of me where I'm like, I want to be the leader. And, you know, like, I. In a lot of my roles, it's like, I'm the leader or whatever. And it's like, I don't. It is an ego thing. I'M about to say I don't think it's an ego thing, but it's an ego thing. Right. And it's like, no, no, I should be resolving this. Like, it should be my thing to resolve. And I got to be the one that leads it. And so there's probably a little bit when Caroline is going, hey, come on, like, let's sit down and chat it through. I feel like, why could I not have done that?

It's a power struggle.

Right.

And so that is arguing in relationships.

Yeah. Power dynamics, man.

There's a few common factors that like, underlie arguments. It's about who's in control. Do you care about me? Do you respect me, or are you leaving? That's how you say.

The leaving thing is often a thing for me. If we're in abandonment. Yeah. If we're in an argument and it's gone, like, it's nighttime. Nighttime is just like, not a great time for me. Just before bed. And if we're still in a weird space, I will always be like, okay, so are you gonna leave?

You've asked me a number of times.

Are you gonna leave now? And he's like, no, I'm here. I'll go to bed, then we can chat tomorrow. I just need to make sure you're staying. And he's like, I'm staying.

And have I ever left?

No, not yet.

Never. All right. Yeah. It's interesting though.

Yeah.

And that comes from, I guess, past experiences and, you know, the nighttime thing is challenging.

Yeah. Night times are tricky, I think for a lot of people. They are though, right, that, like anxiety that creeps at night, you know, Especially if you like the person you're safe with, if you're uneasy with them, then all of that is just way worse.

And you don't really need to go into detail if you don't want to. But growing up in South Africa, personal safety wise.

Yeah. I mean, most South Africans know it's not the safest place.

Especially at night time.

Especially at night time. Yeah. So there's. We're definitely. Yeah. Instances with. Not violence, not for me, but break ins and robberies. Nothing ever happened to me, but I was there when those things happen and they've been at night time.

Yeah.

Yeah. So nighttimes are always tricky for me. And I know I'm safe.

But does your body.

Yeah. It took a while. When I first moved from sa.

It took a while. Like even there are no bars on the windows here. And I was like, this isn't safe. We should not be sleeping windows Are open. Why are the windows open?

But yeah, so I think I'm still in that. Nighttime is a dangerous time.

It's an interesting thing when the body is still responding in that conditioned way, even though you're logically like, yeah, I'm fine. It's a. And I have a lot of South African clients who have shared similar sentiment that actually moving here to New Zealand has been amazing, but also incredibly challenging because how do you go from what feels like one extreme to the other? And how do you relinquish some sense of the control that you had?

It's that control over safety, isn't it?

Like, even stopping at lights, you know, people. That takes.

Yeah.

People a long time. Or. I know that some of my clients have struggled when people are coming up to, you know, they can come up and wash your windows.

Yeah.

When you're waiting at the line, I'm still triggered by. Yeah.

I'm like, no, no, no, no.

Yeah. Even though logically.

Yeah. Even like, Finn has picked up on it. Like, he'll get in the car the minute we're all in the car. Doors a lot. And he's like, whoa, South African in the car. Like, he actually calls me out, like, yes, he does.

Yeah. Your body. Yeah. Holds on to all of that, I think. And then it is really confusing being here because, you know, logically, you're safe, but your body's like, no, but what if. You know.

And isn't that the same pattern that we're talking about? Yeah, logically, I know I'm safe with you.

Yeah.

I don't feel safe. And yeah, logically. I want you to hug me. You know, I know we should hard, but I. I can't.

There's that conflict between mind and body.

Yeah. I mean, it's. Our bodies hold so much, and they've had to. They've had over, you know, to keep us alive this long. They keep humans going. That we have these auto. Automatic bodily responses that we store and even ways of viewing the world that we store because the brain likes to make patterns, and we do make our patterns. And that's why, you know, even stuff that you learned about conflict growing up, those are your. We call them schemas, your patterns or lenses of viewing the world. Your schema is different to your schema. Your schema is different to my schema. We all know that if we walk up to a door, we turn the handle, push the handle down. That's a schema. I know how to do that. And it's the same thing. Same thing for Arguing. Same thing. Yeah, Yours is. You've got one there about safety and that's your lens. Yeah, yeah.

It's fascinating. Yeah. And like, likewise for me, like, when.

I think about my schema, Northern Ireland, also not great.

Yeah.

No, yeah.

And so you have, you two have that in common.

Yeah. Conflict zones.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And it's interesting, you know, going back there. It's a beautiful place, Northern Ireland. I've got beautiful family there. But still there's that, I think my child view of what it was like, because I knew maybe the same in South Africa. Like I had this perception as a child what Northern Ireland was like. And I think possibly I made it even more dangerous and scary in my own mind.

Yeah.

But then probably the most interesting thing for me was mum and dad separating. And I can't remember exactly what age I was. Maybe around 11ish, 12. I don't know. And just watching them separate, divorce and their styles, very different styles. So sometimes I see a bit of my dad come out at me.

Yeah.

And other times you're laughing, you're smiling, and other times I see my mum come out at me. Yeah. And I don't like it. Sometimes I'm like, oh, my God, I love them both. But sometimes like, oh, God, I remember that. That's like a memory from.

Yep.

One that was quite turbulent and probably that impacts how I engage and communicate. Is there a possibility for us to rewire or improve these things that are essentially schemas?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all have those learned behaviors. I think most people, even people listening will have all turned into their father or their mother at some point. And it is horrifying because you're like, oh, my God, that wasn't even me. It was like. And sometimes you think, God, that's the thing I really didn't want to do. And now I'm doing it. And then we get all of this horrendous internal. I'm just like them, or, you know, I'm going to turn into them. And what you have is the beauty of being able to look down at that and go, no, I don't, I don't want to do that. And you do things differently. I think you, you know, you talk about, can we change things. I think both of you have had your own lived experience of that we can change and progress over time. Absolutely. I think one of the most helpful things that we can do in that is with our schemas. You know, if you walk to the door, to use the door analogy again, you're not Going to go, okay, now I need to push my hand. You know, you just do it.

Yeah.

It's the same thing when we're arguing is that we just do it or we just say it. And so sometimes what we need to think is, how do I make a pause between action? Like my, you know, the. The action and the reaction. Right, Reaction and the action, whatever. But how do I pause here? Because I'm gonna say something I don't mean or I'm gonna not say anything. How do I find that space? And in that space, it's often beautiful to be able to bring in a bit of playful. Playfulness and humor if it's coming with the right intention. But that pause is probably the most powerful thing that you can do in communication because what you've both talked about is, oh, well, then he'll come back to me and he'll say, I'm sorry I snapped at you. Well, then she'll come back to me and she'll give me a hug because what's happened? You've had pause. What's happened to your nervous system?

Yeah.

So right down, right. We're not in defense mode anymore. We're not in Fight or flight.

Yeah.

We're here and I'm open.

I'm.

You know, when we go into fight or flight, the front part of our brain, she shuts down. And so we've got these old parts of our brain, and those are the things that we rely on for our fight or flight. They're the oldest, oldest parts of our brain. So that's like the stuff that kept us alive back in the day. Like, you know, there's a threat coming towards me, the line coming towards me. Okay. My body knows I gotta pump blood, so I gotta run. So over time, of course, our brain has evolved and we've developed the newest part of our brain, which is the. The top part. And that is all of our sort of like.

More developed logical thought, you know, ability to forward, plan, executive function, all of that stuff. When we're in Fight or flight, that part of our brain switches off and we go right back to the oldest, oldest parts of our brain, which are survive.

Animal.

Animal. Animal brains.

Yeah.

And so when we're out of fight or flight, what happens is that part of our brain comes back online, and then we're able to go, fuck, I sound just like my dad. Or, oh, my God, why did I say that? Like, that's such a cruel thing to say. I've really hated that part of me. But in that moment, you're so it's so primitive. And that's why fighting can feel really sometimes. Really, you're in the lowest depth.

Ugly.

Ugly.

Well, the primitive use is really smart with that vocab.

Yeah, totally.

The primitive me is not very smart.

It's interesting you say this because, like, it takes me back. So I think of my late teens, early 20s, and I was competing as a drummer and came to New Zealand to try and help a New Zealand group win the world championships. And I was pretty young, very young to be leading a group. And a lot of the people in the group similar age, but also right up into my parents age. And when they couldn't perform or when the pressure went on and they didn't perform well, I bubbled up into like anger and said things like, and swore at these people, these amazing humans. And literally I'd go home after that rehearsal or something and feel so down and be like, yeah, my, that's. I would beat myself up. Like, that's ugly. That's horrible. And I felt like the worst I'd ever felt. For years though, I did this on repeat.

Yeah.

And then I started to like, understand the brain a bit more. And I always say the power is in the pause. And so when you're talking about the pause, I'm like, I now sit. I want to respond, that animal brain. But I breathe and I might just not say anything and I'll retreat and I'll sit in the pause. But instead of for like 30 seconds, it might be 30 minutes or five hours. And it's almost like I went too far.

Well, it's a good learning opportunity then. Because then you say to your partner, this isn't going anywhere. You know, I'm too. You take responsibility if you're the one who's calling time. I'm getting too activated and I'm saying things I don't mean. Can we please come back to this conversation? And you always give a time.

Yeah.

Because if you don't say, you know, in 10 minutes or I'm going to come and get you in 15 minutes, someone might feel abandoned.

Yeah.

Or they're going to keep going.

Right, Someone.

But you have to make a time because you're committing. But you're going to come back with a clearer mind. So you are gonna. You can take longer than five seconds because some of us can't regulate that quickly. Some people can, but I certainly can't. You can say 15, 20 minutes, 4, 30. I'm gonna, I'll come back and you know, say that you're in another room. I'll come back in here and we'll talk it through. Let's both just take a minute. And that doesn't mean that the other person might not still be activated because they might think that you're giving up or walking away. But if you can start to initiate pause and arguments.

You give yourselves both the best opportunity.

Yeah. And you said bringing play into the pause. How can you do that?

Well, I think it's that it can be quite tough because when you're calling pause on something, if you're in that pursue withdrawal dynamic, if you're the withdrawer and you call pause, what the tendency is that the person's going to go, no, no, no, we need to keep going. Yeah, yeah. So sometimes it's. It's just about.

Acknowledging probably what might be happening for that person. I really, I know that you really want to talk about this and I really want to hear it. You could, if it felt right, you know, even at name what's going on. Yeah. But I think we have to use playfulness carefully. We can definitely do it with arguments that are less gritty.

Yeah.

Bickering, for example, or why didn't you put your bowl in the dishwasher? There's room for playfulness there because we can't take everything in.

You're good at that stuff with like the small stuff, like the house stuff, like you're playful with that.

Yeah.

And it gets me to go, oh, yep, yep. No, you're right. Let's go hoover out.

Yeah, yeah.

And that can be.

I mean, that's a Play can come in there.

Play can come. I mean, that's such a. That dynamic around mental load and household responsibilities is.

There's been some big progress there, actually.

I just want to. I'm going to call pause because I just want to. I want to hold that. But I also want to touch on something you're talking about, James, which is around when you were working and you were helping this band.

Yes.

There is something there, maybe about what happened when it didn't go well. And what did that do for you? Well, it activated something in you, your deep rooted beliefs and about yourself.

Right.

It wasn't actually about them. Yeah, you. It was about you and this isn't good enough or I'm a failure, probably. You know, we won't go too far into your cool beliefs, but most of us have a I'm not a very good blah or I'm not a good enough person or I'm a failure. I'm worthless. You know, we all have These deep rooted, we call them core beliefs and they form so much of the way that we engage with people and the world. And so what happened was that their failure you internalized as your and your failure and that probably you've resolved that core belief or you defend that core belief through perfectionism.

Yes.

High achievement, 100%. And so what happens in relationships where you've got high achievers or a high achiever. Well, what tends to happen is that the same standards that one expects of self, they then place onto the other person.

Yeah.

What they also tend to do is bring the other person in. Let's do a business together. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what's together. Yeah, yeah. So that can make things. It's not a bad thing.

Yeah.

It's not a judgment but it's just a tendency because the relationship becomes part of the business, the achievement. Come on in, let's do this together.

Yeah. And that's interesting.

I mean I'm not conscious of that. That's really fascinating. And going back to like the 20ish age, I came away from a group in Canada and we just won the world championships two years in a row and I then stepped down from that. I was 21 or 22, I don't know that young age. Came to New Zealand to do it on my own and almost felt like I had to prove to my leader in Canada like I'm good enough. And I felt like I was never good enough. And you know, 80 to 90 hour weeks, no problem, let's go and up at 5am and going to bed at midnight and you know the poor people that committed to being in that band, what I put them through in terms of like we're going to stay here for six hours until this one little phrase of music.

Yeah.

Is perfect. Like it was so fanatical and yeah, I got like angry and it was more like I think frustration, like I'm an imposter, like I shouldn't be leading this team. My mentor is going to see me or the leader is going to see me in a year at the world championship some point laugh or be ashamed of who I am. There were so many complex things.

Someone will witness my failure and that will show, show them that I am. Would I see it? Yeah, it's. And the soothing is, you know, 80, 90 hour weeks, that soothes my core belief. But over time what happens becomes the norm. Boundaries between work and home get blurred and it, you know, at the end of it all, it's never good enough.

Yeah. You're just Going to keep striving.

I burnt out. I mean, yeah. The thing that was my passion and my joy, which was drumming as a kid. Like, I started drumming as a kid, and it was just joy. I retired from it, from competing. I resigned from my job. I actually ended up hating it. Yeah, I burnt out.

You don't play anymore?

I don't. Not ever lift the sticks? No.

Yeah.

It's, like, gone. And I guess looking at that, I feel like now there's not that anger. I don't express that.

No. You're never angry or, like, he never comes across as angry. I'm sure there is anger in you, though.

I'd struggle probably to connect with even the word anger, probably because I want to push so far away from what I was as a young man. And essentially I went back and talked to some of the people that were in the group. I said, oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

Like, wow.

And they're like, james, you were great. Like, you see what we did together, like, what we were able to achieve. We did X, Y and Z. And, yeah, sometimes you got a bit intense. But I think most of them were able to say, actually, it was. It was fine. It was what happened, and we can deal with it. I would say there'll still be some of them that were like, God, that was traumatizing.

Right.

They weren't living on the inside of you. Like, they weren't experiencing all of that anger because you were feeling it, too. So they don't know how intense it actually was.

Yeah. I think it's like looking at a coach of a team, like a rugby team or whatever it might be. You can sometimes see them boil over and bubble up, and I think they feel it all. And I guess what I want to do is bring it back into this and our relationship. And I guess for the listeners that are listening, like, they're thinking about their relationships or their job to their people. I don't want to get to the point again where something that brings me so much joy and connection, which is our relationship. I don't want to get to the point where I'm, like, fanatical, and it's like, we've got to be perfect and we've got to.

Yeah.

Win at all cost. I don't ever want to get there again.

Yeah.

Is there things that I can be.

Aware of that you can't win? There you go. Yeah. If someone wins. No one. No one's won.

Yeah. It's tricky when it's. It's business and a. Like a Romantic relationship in one.

How do you manage that? What are your boundaries?

Like?

We.

We work more than we should.

Yes.

That's for sure.

100%.

When we don't have thin over the weekends, we. There's always work.

Yeah.

And that's probably. That probably needs to change.

And I probably am going a little bit on the other end of the spectrum now where I'm like, caroline, I think you shouldn't work. I think you should relax. I think.

Yeah.

Don't check your email. Like, how about we switch off? I'm probably going the other end now. And when we're on holiday, I'm like, no, working. Like, I'm not going to check my email all week. And you're like, oh, no, no. I just don't.

One of us has to be on though. Like it's a business that has to run, so someone's got to be on. But not over the weekends. That's where we can have better boundaries.

Is it, Is there a sense of you having responsibility over the business to James? He brought you into the fold and now do you feel you have to prove.

No.

Okay.

No, I don't feel that way. I think initially I probably did, but now we're just so different in terms of how we work.

That I just think I don't need to prove anything to you.

You're quite autonomous in your role.

Yeah.

I like working alone and having. Just holding myself accountable. That's not really a problem for me.

Yeah. If anything, I have to be told to stop.

Which I need to get better at. But no, I don't feel like I need to prove anything.

So outside of working together, how do you have quality time? Because then you've got Finn.

Yes, Finn. When, when we have Finn, we don't work and it's just.

What about the two of you?

When it's just us?

I like how like you and I probably both would have answered that the same way and just avoided the dog walking.

When it's just us, we walk the dogs. When the dog's aren't there though, what do we do?

We exercise together. Run together.

Very rarely though.

Walking's a big thing. Coffee, Coffee.

We go on dates, like dinner dates sometimes.

But work does tend to creep in, doesn't it?

It comes up a lot.

I don't know how to not have it be there though.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, I don't work with my partner and when we go to dinner, I might talk about work or hear talk about work, but. But it's more about. There's a difference, isn't there? Because one of them is about hearing my partner works in finance. Like, do I really. I don't understand. Is it the most thrilling thing to me? No. But I hear and I listen because, you know, everyone. All we want. All we want, whether we're just talking normally or we're having an argument, is we just want to feel heard. And so hearing someone, even when you're talking about an Excel spreadsheet, I. I'm hearing you. I'm listening. Right. Do I care? No. But does he care about all the stuff I talk about? Probably not.

Yeah.

But there's a difference, because there's. No, there's nothing. We don't have a. Maybe a common goal shared there. Yeah. It's not a business meeting. It's. You talk about your day and me talking about my day. How do you separate business meeting?

We don't really know how.

So interesting is recently, I was like, we don't have any. Because it's just pretty much Caroline and I, and then we've got a small team overseas that do editing and so forth. And I brought up, like, we should have a weekly business meeting. Like, official. Like, we sit down for an hour and we do it. And then for whatever reason, there's resistance, and we just be like, oh, but we talk about it kind of ongoing all the time.

Maybe this the problem. Maybe there should be a weekly business meeting.

That'd be awesome.

Yeah. And then we'll figure out what to talk about.

Well, let's be honest. Like, the one thing we're kind of geeky on is, like, we are passionate readers.

Yeah. And we read quite differently.

We do.

Yeah. So that is something we do like to do together.

We have to carve out our own boundaries. You know, now that we're all working from home a lot more.

Yeah.

We have to be intentional about carving out boundaries. And it's not unusual for couples to work together. My parents work together their whole lives.

Yeah.

But they certainly talked about work a lot.

Yeah.

Growing up. And. Look, I don't have the answer, but I think that carving out space where you don't. You both make an agreement that it's not about that. And also, sometimes it's really normal to go to dinner with your partner who you spend all your time with and not have much to say.

Yeah. Yeah. Don't feel bad.

That's also okay.

Yeah.

Because you don't.

We like to play card games.

We play card games when we go out for dinner or even for a coffee.

We'll Bring cards with a coffee and.

Then can't put them down.

We're quite competitive.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then work can't really come up if you're playing cards.

But you could also both have a conversation about it before you even get there. Right.

Yeah.

What do we want tonight to be about? And of course, it might. It might segue, but you can both catch it. That's mindfulness.

Yes.

Right. Sometimes it just might sway that way, and then we can bring it back.

That's brilliant. I like the idea of a theme like, hey, tonight, let's focus in on a theme. Is that we. At the start of our. Way too early. Actually, we started way too early in.

Our relationship called Eight Dates, all right.

By the Gottmans.

James is quite an extreme person. So you were like, we're dating eight dates.

So essentially, the governments, like, are passionate about relationships and they can predict, like, whether people stay together or get divorced.

Yeah.

Coming out of a divorce, I was. I don't want to do that again.

Yeah.

I failed. I don't want to fail again like that. That was hurtful for me and others. The Gottmans, we're going to do this.

Really well so that he succeed.

Yeah. And I'm going to use this race, these people, because I know.

Quite masculine, right?

Quite like.

Yeah.

I think it's a. It's a failure, you know, so fearful that that will happen again, that if I'm going to do this, I want to do it right. And I'm going to know all about those four Horsemen, and we're going to talk about them in depth. And I'm going to feel out whether you might, you know, how do you manage that? When is there a tendency for you. Can I ask, were you with someone? Were you divorced?

No, I did have a long relationship, about seven years.

Okay.

But no marriage. Okay. Yeah.

So both coming from a context of long relationships breaking down, yours culminating in divorce. What. How do you tolerate.

If there is this kind of. It sounds like, you know, I feel like I failed. I failed in my marriage. Therefore, we're gonna learn all about the Gottmans and we're gonna. You know, that's how I'm gonna soothe that. I'm gonna control it because I'm gonna know everything.

How do you then tolerate when there is discontent in the relationship without. Do you ever find yourself catastrophizing, or is that perhaps part of the reason why you withdraw? I don't want to argue, because if we argue, that might mean that we're headed for Failure, Honestly, consciously, I don't.

Think I've ever thought that. But now that you bring it up, I'm like, that could be a real thing that's happening subconsciously.

That's definitely my thing. The catastrophizing. Yeah. So I'm grateful you haven't got there yet, because imagine both of us.

It's not room for two.

Yeah. I'm taking that one.

You win.

I do enough of it for two.

I journal a hell of a lot.

Like he does, often twice a day.

And it's like, to me, I think that's allowed me to get out of my head a lot and just doesn't make it perfect and it doesn't make it easy at times, but just getting.

It out, do you do everything to that kind of like, you know, you're like, oh, journaling. Journaling is good. I will now journal twice a day.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes, A little bit. Like, it's interesting. I have this thing I asked my clients today around building self belief, and it's like, go out and text 8 people you love and trust.

Yeah.

And ask them what the one thing they really admire about you and they would like to have more of in their life. Like a trait. And the first text I got back out, when I sent this to one of my trusted friends, he said, james, your radical obsession out of goodness. And I was like, oh, my God, that's awful. Obsession and radical. And I called him. I was like, thank you so much for that. Can you tell me a bit more about what you mean by that? And he says, look, when you want something, you just go all in and you get after it and you stay focused on it. So I see that as a strength, but I also see that as a really big weakness of mine. And if I had to go somewhere and my journal got lost or like, I've got on the front. If you find this journal, this is my number. There's a reward for this. Bring it back. This is like my thoughts, you know, and there's nothing, like, special in it, but I'm quite fixated on, like, rituals, and I love routine, and it almost keeps me straight and narrow. Soothing, almost. I don't know.

It's weird.

It's not weird.

Feels weird.

Yeah. I don't. I don't think it's weird. It's just part of what makes you feel in control.

I just. Yeah, I guess I'm just curious.

About, you know, doing something like that twice. Twice a day, you know, And I. I wonder about how that links to your Kind of maybe more perfectionistic traits. And then what that's like when there is things that seemingly aren't going right, you know, so then we're not going to argue. We're not talking about this anymore. It's fine. Like, let's move on.

Yeah, he does now that you say that like you haven't done it in a while. But when we argue or not, even when we argue with work. For instance, if I forgot to do one thing.

On the lead up to a podcast episode going out, and then it goes out and that thing's not there. That should have been there. Whatever it was.

James's response is always, okay, so how can we put a whole system in place that this never happens again? And then we can never do it this way because we look. And I'm like, it was human error. Like, it's happened once.

I'm like, no, no, no operating procedures.

We can get something. There must be things in place so that. That never happens again. And I'm like, you, something else will happen next time. And then, well, we have a whole system. We can't. This is human errand. It happens.

Yeah.

And we need to let it go.

There is it. Kind of what you're talking about also brings up something else that's quite common in couples is, like this sort of attribution error. And it's the idea that, like, if you're late, it's because.

You'Re disorganized, you don't care about me. You don't see this as important. If I'm late, well, the traffic was bad or my meeting ran over. So we have this tendency to say that our stuff is circumstantial, but your stuff is because of your character. And it's this. Yeah, that's just a trap that we can fall into him. And maybe. Yeah, I don't know if that's exactly how it plays out for you, but, you know, if I forget to do something for the podcast, it's because I had too many things to do. If you forget, we've got to put a whole thing in place.

I probably beat myself up. If I forget something, like, oh, God, I totally. Like, I would go into a little bit of self.

I'm like, yeah, he's really hard on himself. If he does something wrong.

Yeah, definitely.

Or not even wrong.

Just like, that could have been better.

Just human error. Like, yeah, just. It's fine. It is fine.

Yeah. I struggle with that. I'm just like, no, James, you could have done better than that. Like, come on, like, I do a lot of self talk probably around that.

It's not self talk. It's like self loathing.

You notice it?

Yeah, yeah. And I've called you out for it too. And be like being, Be kind. Practice self compassion. This is natural. And often I'll say to him, if this was one of your clients, what would you do? And then he's like, oh, don't beat yourself up. I'm like, and if it was me, the same thing. Don't be like. So then why can't you have that?

You've been a great, like not just a partner, but a coach at times in my life where you have helped me to see it from a different perspective. When I've been nervous or I've had doubts or. It's interesting. I was called it recently. We had Daniel Pink on the show who wrote Drive and like, he's all around self motivation. And I was saying, like, I struggle sometimes to go to a gym and like push myself to exhaustion. I just don't, I don't like that. And he says, tell me how you feel about yourself when you think about that. I was like, pretty weak sometimes. A bit pathetic actually. And he went, okay, stop right there. He said, that's exactly the problem. He said, you have this negative self talk. My God, I didn't even know it was there until he had asked me. But maybe at a subconscious level there is a little bit of that happening. Yeah.

And I think that the mistake that we make is thinking that that drives us. If I'm hard on myself, I'll be more successful. But all of the research shows if we're self compassionate, people who are self compassionate end up being more successful in the long run because we allow for mistakes and we learn from them, we grow from them. Oh, gosh, Interesting what happened there. And we're not scared. Scared to make mistakes. You know, if you think about a punitive parent, if you make a mistake at school, you're so terrified and you're so scared of doing anything wrong again, you might not take risks. You might, you know, you might just toe the line. But if you have a parent who's like, oh, gosh, that sucks, you know, how can I help you? There's so much more room for growth there. So, yeah, all of the research is saying if we're hard on ourselves, it is not helpful for us in the long, long run.

So it's interesting because you're like that with not hard on him. You are the parent who's like, oh, that sucks, buddy. What do we do next time.

Yeah. What do we learn? How do we move? Like it's right.

I don't.

I'm not the hard parent on him.

And he's like, yeah, there's been stuff come up at school and you've gone in for meeting and stuff and James just. He laughs it off.

Yeah.

He cuddles Finn, gives him all the kisses in the world and it's like cool. How can we. Coarse Creek.

It's not helpful to be.

Yeah.

100 crazy idea.

Do it to myself.

Well, I mean and that's what Caroline's saying. I mean this is a beautiful exercise of self compassion is how would you respond to a friend, to Finn, to me.

Yeah.

In that same circumstance.

It's a big work on for me. It's actually quite an exciting work on. Like it seems fun that I could do that and it doesn't seem like a chore.

Make your brain a nicer place to exist in sometimes. Yeah.

Easier.

I'm keen on that.

Yeah. Yeah.

I love it. Look, I Want to be 100 mindful of your time, but I've loved today. Yeah, it's been awesome. I'm sure the listener, they're listening now will agree that it's been fascinating for all of us. I've learned like so much about me.

Yeah, it's been brilliant.

So Victoria, thank you for creating a space for us where we feel really comfortable.

Oh, you're so welcome. And thank you guys for being so vulnerable and honest. I know that it's not easy to sit in that chair and behind closed doors, let alone on a podcast. So I think what you're doing is opening a conversation that other people can start to explore for themselves at home as well. And that's. That's pretty awesome.

Thank you for making this easy. Yeah.

And I would love to extend the invite in the future if we want to pick another topic or if the audience has some suggestions around topics. Be great to have you on again. And for anyone that wants to connect with you, Dr. Victoria Thompson. I'm going to put all of your socials in the show notes so they can go and follow you, connect with you, learn more about your amazing work.

Come on over.

Love it. Thank you.

Thanks, guys.

Thank you.

Sweet.

Yeah, that was awesome. The lead on purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at NZMortgages Co NZ.