Why High Performers Win Big and Still Feel Empty with Dr Jack Groppel

Today's special guest is a dear friend, Dr. Jack Groppel, best selling author and the founding father of sports science. You also might be familiar with his concept called the corporate athlete, which has gone global. And also he's the co founder of the Johnson and Johnson Human Performance Institute. He's recently released a book and you're going to hear all about it today. Sit back and enjoy. Jack, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thanks so much, James. It's great to be with you.

Oh, I've been waiting for this for a long time. So you know that in life when you just have people that you look up to, they're like role models, they're idols, they're people. You're like, God, I'd love to follow in your footsteps. You're one of those people. And I don't say that to blow smoke. I say that in all honesty, you are, to me, the leader, a founding leader in sports science.

Thank you.

Oh, it's incredible what you've done. When people look at the Johnson and Johnson, you formed a HPI High Performance Institute, just world leading. And there's millions of people that look to what you do and they try to do their own iteration of it. But you are the og. You're the original.

Thanks.

We're lucky to get this moment to sit with you. The listener, I hope, appreciates just how fortunate they are. And we meet you at a very interesting time because you've written a book, which I've had the great privilege of reading, an early reader copy. I deeply appreciate you letting me do that. The book is available right now for the listener that's listening right now. You're going to be able to buy this today, but I want to talk about how important it is at this stage in humanity because we are competitive, we are driven. People that listen to this podcast, they want to achieve, they're ambitious. There's almost a level of obsession with growing and learning and it's grit, but also it can be a big weakness and it can drive us to burnout and drive us to relationship burnout. So this book has came at literally the right time for everyone to start the new year 2026 with this book. Thank you.

Why did you write it? Well, I believe the book is about transformation because it's my life transformation. And you know, when I would teach classes at hpi, I would often ask people, how many of you, either as a child or as a young adult, there was somebody in your life, whether it was a parent, a grandparent, an aunt, an Uncle. Even a friend that you wanted to please, that you felt that you needed to or needed to please. And you can't. I mean, like 90% of all the hands go up. And it's not necessarily being a people pleaser, but there was someone that you wanted to show that you were good enough. And then. And then there's the other side of the coin where people just. They grow up in a culture or an environment where, yeah, I've got this opportunity, but I don't know if I'm good enough. And then you ask that, and then a lot of people, the other hands go up. I mean, it's just. So that's the book dedication, in fact, James, to people that ever felt there was somebody in their life that they had to please or that they ever felt they weren't good enough. And because I felt that my father was a hard charger and just a huge discipline. He definitely believed spare the rod, spoil a child was the way of life. And. But it wasn't just that. A lot of people think, well, that's physical abuse. I get it. But he was just a demanding man. So for whatever reason, as a young boy, I developed this attitude. I'll show you. Watch me. And that's been almost my whole life. My whole life has been. Watch me. And then. And then, you know, I got. I finally, in my late 40s, I decided I don't have to please him any longer. But it took a long time for me to get it right. James.

Yeah, I bet. I can imagine there's a lot of people right now really resonating with that, whether it's a father, a mother or someone in their family, a teacher, that they're trying to show, I can do this and I am good enough. Now, there's a positive side to that, Jack, because people will go, well, look at your career. It's just mind blowing. So there are positives, however, how does that bleed over into negative? How can that turn into an unhealthy journey?

Yeah. And I would caution your listener right now, don't make this about me, because you could easily say, I'm not you and I can't do what you did. Okay, but you're you. So make these stories that you and I are talking about, James, make it about you, the listener. And how does it apply to you? So for me, I just started. I mean, I was one of the first people in sports science. There were only a handful in the United States, and I was definitely among the one or two first people in tennis to really start Applying science to the game. I was the founding chairman of the Sports Science committee for the U.S. tennis association. Traveled to 52 countries, 7 million miles of travel, teaching federations and coaches and athletes. But I did it. And I did so much for free. But I said yes to everything because it was the only. I felt I developed this narrative that it was the only way that I could get out there, that I could really build my reputation, that I could build a career. I had to do a lot. I had a mentor that when I was 22 years of age, said to me, if you really apply yourself, you could become a pioneering leader in the science of tennis performance. Bang. I mean, that's all it took. So think about that. I had the demanding side, this effort. Go, go, go. Side. And then I had a mentor that encouraged me like no other man had ever done in my life. No. Ever fed into my soul ever before. And see, that's the power of words for people listening. We don't sometimes don't understand the power of our words. And he spoke into me and wow. I just took off and I created. Basically, there was no template, there was no career to follow. I created my own career. And that's then, yeah, I've been really blessed to have a crazy career. Yeah.

Can we talk about the tennis side of it? Because we'll have some avid tennis fanatics who are listening right now. So what was the impact that you did have on tennis? Where did that lead you? Who did you work with?

Oh, my gosh, the players. Wise? Well, I mean, as I started building my reputation in the early 80s, I was working with an orthopedic surgeon in Arlington, Virginia. And I'd been doing. See, I think that's key, too. I wanted to make sure that the research that I was doing was very high quality. Everything was really, really good. I wasn't just doing it to do it and doing it to just check off the box. I was doing it to try to answer questions. And this orthopedic surgeon loved what I was doing and said, one of my clients, one of my patients could use some help on his serve. And I said, okay, what's his name? And he said, stan Smith. And I went, wait, the Stan Smith and Stan. And this is a little embarrassing right now because Stan and his wife Margie, are good friends to this day. But he's. But that's how it was. And I'm like, gaga? Are you kidding me? Stan Smith, the former number one player in the world? Are we speaking about the same guy? Yeah, I love it. Okay, so I get my high speed camera that makes all kinds of noise. This is 16 millimeter film. By the way, James, this isn't video as we know today. This is way back in the dark ages where if you overexpose the film, you're screwed. So you have to, I mean, my graduate students, colleagues and I, we would play games with each other to unload and load film in complete darkness in a closet and time each other to see who could do it the fastest and not overexpose the film. I mean, this is the kind of thing you had to do though. So I show up and I work with Stan Smith and I'm working with him on a serve in the video, on the film and on the court. And that was a privilege. And then, you know, in a little, a few years later, I'd become the chairman of the sports science committee for the United States Tennis Association. And they said there's this 17 year old young man who's one of these top 25 in the world and he's really good and we think he needs some work. We'd like some sports science input into him for nutrition, his movement and things like that. So In March of 1989, I was sent to Palm Springs to work with Michael Chang. Wow. And Michael. And we did, we changed his fitness program, helped him with his nutrition. And by the way, I take zero credit for this, but I mean, it didn't hurt my reputation that three months later he becomes the youngest man to win the French Open. You know, and then, and in the early 80s, I'm in Snowmass, Colorado. I'm at, I'd been building my reputation, I'm at a Nike tennis advisory staff meeting in Colorado. And the head of tennis promotions, her name is Claudia Craig, she's in the book and the story is in the book that I'm going to tell right now. And she said there's a, one of our, one of our top tennis players is having a problem with his ankles and we'd like you to, can you go back to Champaign, Illinois, University of Illinois, get your camera and fly to San Francisco and shoot films during the Transamerica Open at the Cow palace in San Francisco. I said, sure. And that was when I started working with John McEnroe on his movement. And that was the first time the three quarter top shoe was ever worn. And then I'll just tell you one more quick story. Here I am, you know, I'm talking about all these players. It's in the 80s as well. I'm in Washington D.C. at a sports medicine festival. And I show all these high speed films of tennis players. I walk out, this very tall man greets me in the aisle. We're still in the conference room, James. And he says, can you do this in baseball? And I said, well, I'm sure. What do you want to look at? And he says, well, I'm really concerned about the head first versus the feet first slide and in baseball. And I said, well, yeah, I'm sure you could pan. You could start with the athlete and when they start running, you pan and then you have a block at 90 degrees, so you can digitize the film. And I said, who are you? And he says, my name is Richard Korzad. I'm the team physician for the Chicago White Sox. So now I start shooting high speed films of sliding. And we published that in the American Journal of Sports Medicine. So. So a lot of the research was the first ever published in some of these sports in sports medicine. So that's during one decade of some of the experiences I had.

It's incredible. And can I ask you, Jack, what did that do to your. Not your ego, but your identity? How did that start shaping your identity of who you've seen yourself as well?

I'm going to be absolutely transparent with you and careful at the same time because I don't think, I mean, I certainly was incredibly confident, but I don't know if I was egotistical as much as I was insecure. I wanted maybe now that you could, you could argue that ego comes from insecurity. But I just wanted to do a great job. And every opportunity I had, it was like this inner voice is going, you can't screw this up, dude. You know, I mean, that was honestly the pushing force that don't mess this up. Because this is a huge opportunity. And everything became a huge opportunity. I'm sure a lot of your listeners can identify with that. Everything we end up doing becomes a huge opportunity. And they were. I mean, these are some of the greatest athletes in the world that I'm having the experience to work with. And I can't overexpose these films. I can't screw this up when I digitize them. I got to do this right, because now we're going to make recommendations to them on their training, on their equipment. So it certainly built my reputation and built me up that I could do it. But I was all, I think this is. Again, I come back to how I started this conversation. I made sure that everything I did was very high quality work. I never piecemealed I never half assed anything. And I'm, and that's probably my biggest, the biggest thing I'm proudest of that I never half assed anything. I made sure that whatever I did, it was the highest quality that could possibly be done. And, and I believe that is what allowed me to be so successful. It wasn't that I just did, did, did, did, did. It was everything I did was the absolute highest quality possible.

So rather than doing a million things at mediocre quality, you did one thing at a really high level.

Yeah. Like those four athletes and teams, I did those to the absolute best of my ability. And you could argue that that launched my entire career. I mean, I'll give you another little quick story. In the early 80s, I'm at home. I'd been at the US Open tennis tournament for the first week, I was the second week at home, and a former world class player is showing, giving a tennis tip. And what he said was, he said, what you do, you hit the ball and then you roll over the ball. I'm going, you don't do that. Because I've got all these high speed film that this is how you hit topspin. You brush the back of the ball. And I'm going, what do I do with this? Because he just gave millions on a television audience the wrong information. So what do I do? I take stop action pictures from the film. And the parent company owned a magazine called World Tennis Magazine. And I sent them a letter with the pictures showing how topspin is actually hit. And I said, we owe it, I said, your parent company gave the wrong information to people. We owe it to them to teach the right way. And that was how I became a technical editor for World Tennis magazine for five years. And then I became an instruction editor for Tennis Magazine, the largest magazine in the world in tennis for 12 more years.

Amazing.

But that's how it all happened, that I said, hey, we're doing this wrong. We could do it the right way, but here's the right way. I'm not, I'm just not blowing smoke. I'm trying to show you what the right way is and we can do.

This is amazing. So you're willing to speak up, make sure that you do the right thing, but you're backing it up with evidence.

100%, backing it up with science.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And let's talk about the level you're doing it at. It's clearly world class. You're building this great career. What's happening alongside that, you know, like Everyone is listening right now. Yeah. You know where I'm going, Jack?

Yeah, I do know where you're going. Alongside of it was a mess. And that's part of what the book is about. Because the title of the book is the subtitle of the book, the mountain book is called Mountains Within. Then the subtitle is A Life of Achievement. That's what you and I are talking about now. A Quest for Meaning. Now you're going to get into this with me and the mountain that changed everything. Because it was on Kilimanjaro we were climbing, my son and I, that I decided it was just like my life. But the quest for meaning, to your point, yeah. Personally, my life was a mess. I got married to. I was deeply in love with this woman. She was a younger woman. She just graduated. We probably shouldn't have gotten married as early as we did, but we did everything. All this is in the book, by the way. All these stories are in the book. I mean, I choreographed the most beautiful engagement. We were off the coast of Cozumel on a cruise ship, and I gave a diamond ring in front of the entire cruise ship. And then I took her to Wimbledon and took her to the Australian Open. I mean, we just had a great life. But three years later, she said, I'm leaving. I'm leaving tomorrow. And that was on Valentine's Day. And I was so naive. I was your listeners, I hope they laugh at this because I was so. I was head over heels in love with her, and I thought everything was fine. But as it turns out, I really wasn't giving her the energy that I should have been able to give her. And that's what I think your listeners could get from my story. Because I'm thinking, everything's fine. So I show up at Valentine's Day jewelry I'm ready to give to my beautiful bride. And. And an hour later, she says she's moving out the next day, and I'm going, wait, what? We can go to counseling. And three months later, we were divorced. And then again to your point that I didn't get the counseling, then I didn't seek the support. So what do I do, being who I am? Just go, go, go. I want a date. So I find my college sweetheart and I find out on this phone call that she's going through divorce, too. Well, hello, you know, and that shouldn't have happened. We got married. Probably shouldn't have, you know, And I'm not saying shouldn't have. I loved her. I mean, I'm not Minimizing that. But I wasn't doing the work on me that I was doing in my career. See, we got to do the work on ourselves as well as on our career. We all have a growth mindset in our career, but do we have a growth mindset in our life?

Why is that, Jack? Why were you world class and world renowned in one part of your life, but maybe hesitant or reluctant to do the same level of inner work on your personal life?

I think it goes back to the drive that I developed and the achievement that I developed and, and you could even argue that the achievement was getting married. The achievement wasn't investing energy in another person's life. You know, and then where this hit me so hard, James, was in 1996, I'd beaten my body up. I'd had surgery on all four major joints, knees and shoulders. And now I have a knee operation in 96 and unfortunately I got a staph infection. Now I'm hospitalized for 15 days. I had a picc line into my heart. I mean, it's kind of dismal, this outlook that I'm facing. It's not pretty. And I only had one person outside my family in 15 days. Now I had a lot of people call me. I don't want to minimize that. There were people calling me, but I only had one people outside my family come to visit me. And I said, this has got to stop. Because to your point, I'm building this reputation, I'm building this name, but I'm not investing energy in other people's lives. And I said, this is going to stop. And it took me a little while. I got reconnected to my faith and then. But then the real coup d' etat happened to me personally when in 2008, I went to China by myself and adopted my son. His mom injured herself, that's why she couldn't go. So I went by myself. And I think that's where I think God has a sense of humor. Because he's going to send this man in his mid-50s to China by himself and they're going to put a screaming 4 year old in his arms that hates his guts. And you're going to teach this man how to love. You don't have. You can't speak language, he doesn't know English, you don't know Mandarin. So all you got is touch, tone of voice and facial expression. That's all you've got. And you're going to be with him for two weeks. And that two weeks was the most significant two weeks of my life.

Talk me through that. Let's go back to those two weeks. What happened in those two weeks that deeply impacted the rest of your life.

Let's go back to the very first moment. The very first moment. He was the last child to come out. We were in the civil affairs office in Guangzhou, China, and he was the last child to come out. They had a sheet over the doorway, and he came out. And I'm thinking. I'm thinking, what I want to do is welcome him. I want to be receiving. So I get down on his level and I open my arms and I'm smiling, but his poor kid is just screaming. He's crying. And they're introducing me as Baba, which is Father, Papa. And he's screaming. He's screaming that he's being kidnapped. And there's nannies. I've got sippy cups. I've got toys. We can't settle him down. We go back to the hotel. It's an hour and a half, two hours away, maybe in traffic. He's still weeping. He's just. The poor kid's grieving. It's a morning cry. We go up to the hotel room. The translator is still with us because we can't communicate. And he's one month shy of four and shows him a toilet for the first time in his life. And he's still. Because all they have is the flat receptacle in the orphanage in China. And he's still crying. It comes out. Then the Translator says, well, Mr. Groppo, I'm sorry, but I have to leave now. And I said, no, you don't. I. I will pay you whatever you want. I'll give you $1,000 right now just to stay a couple more hours. I'll even go to the ATM if you want more. I honestly said this to him, and he said, I can't accept your money. I'll lose my job. He said, but I have two things for you. And I'm going, like, what are those? Number one. Well, he's almost four. He knows how to unlock the door. He will run on you tonight. And I'm going, well, what do I do with that? And then I said, well, what's number two? And he said, whatever you do, don't give him a bath. And he was filthy. And I said, why? He says, because it'll push him further away from you. I've been doing this a long time. I said, okay, no bath. So the translator leaves. So I order room service. I can't take this child out in public. He's just grieving, crying. So we order room service. And while we're there, there's a crib in the room. They don't know I have a toddler. They think a lot of the adoption families are all infants. So there's a crib in the room. So my son is eating a hamburger. And I think it was a hamburger. I don't remember. And I'm trying to plot how I'm going to keep the escape artist in the room that night. And I'm going, okay, the crib. We put the crib in front of the door. I'll hear him a light sleeper. So we put the tray outside. And then I have him like a game, let's move the crib. So he's helping me and he's smiling now. And we put the crib in front of the door. He doesn't realize that I'm putting the crib there so he can't get out. I put him on the end of the bed and I put cartoons on the tv. I go sits a king size bed in a hotel room. I go sit in the desk and I'm looking at my son and he's just this grieving, crying. And I little said a prayer. I said, God, what do you want me to do? Because I've got nothing. I got nothing. I can't help this kid. I've got nothing. And I felt on my heart, you got to give him a bath. And James, I don't mind doing this because I publicly, I said out loud, I went, I'm going to ask you one more time. And I felt on my heart, you got to give him a bath. I said, okay, here we go. Because this is gonna scare him to death. And it sure did. Here I am taking his clothes off and then I make a conscious decision. I'm not gonna wash his hair. No soap in the eyes. And I'm not gonna wash. Just gonna do his feet and his shoulders. That's all I'm gonna do. Then I get him out of the tub, I towel him off, and I put him in a pair of pajamas that I brought with me and I give him a sippy cup of apple juice. James, not another tear. And he slept right next to me the entire night.

Wow.

And then we went swimming every day because what he had to do was he couldn't swim, so he had to rely on me to hold him. And it was that physical touch with safety to build trust and to build slowly build the trust to be able to love each other.

Amazing. Thank you for sharing now he's a.

Junior in college and he's doing great.

That's unbelievable. You must be really proud.

Oh, you know, I'm proud, but I want to be really careful of the pride because I'm proud that that happened. But what I want your listeners to realize is the effect that the adoption had on me. See what everybody says is how great for this little kid, how you saved this little kid. This little kid saved me, James. Yeah, this little kid saved me. That's what people have to understand when you, when you've got this kind of transference of love going back and forth. I mean, wow. And he and I talk about this to this day. The impact that we had on each other in our lives.

Everything shifted then from sounds like anyway, achievement winning, career building. It changed almost instantaneously in that moment. How did things change when you got back to life?

It was ironic. That was 2008, and 2008 was a very monumental year for me because my father, who I'd been trying to impress my whole life, he died in January of 2008. Then we adopted my son in September and we sold our business to Johnson and Johnson in December. Wow. So big. And the sale, the sale actually happened. I mean, the negotiation was going on in September while I was in China. So the closing only took three months, which is unheard of. And we closed in December. So now I'm back, I've got a son and it was now. But I gotta tell you, if you look at the timeline of my career, I did more things that could have, you could argue they're more impact. I mean, after that I spoke at the United nations on the role of physical activity in preventing non communicable diseases of cancer and heart disease and diabetes. I've done three congressional briefings for the U.S. congress on workplace wellness and well being programs. You know, I've spoken alongside the Surgeon General, I represented the worksite wellness industry on the, the his historic call to action on walking in walkable communities. You could argue I did more for people than after the adoption that I. And before you could argue.

Yeah, of course you could.

And, and it's just. But it all started with sport. You know, you got to come back to sports science. That's where it all started. That I was one of the first there. And that's what I'm really grateful about, that I had the opportunity to be in that right place at the right time.

Yeah, timing is everything. But I think, you know, people talk about being lucky and I think in a lot of ways the High performers I've met in my life like yourself. You create your own luck. And you've got to set yourself up so when the time comes along, you've got the skill and you've got the know. How?

Well, you know the equation, luck equals preparation plus opportunity.

There you go.

And. Or you don't. If you don't want to call it luck, you call it good fortune. It equals preparation plus opportunity. So you prepare like crazy. You prepare, you prepare, you prepare. And when the opportunity presents itself, are you ready to go through that door? That's what I say when I mentor people now, when I coach people. This is exactly the equation I use. Yeah, you might say I was lucky, but I worked my butt off to get lucky. You know what I'm saying?

Oh, I did 100%.

You know, I mean, I could tell you another quick story. I mean, I was on this large speaking tour, how the Brain works. Before the speaking tour started, I'd spoken to about a thousand executives. They're corporate muckety mucks, following each other. Love them to death. But then I get on this tour. The first event is in Des Moines, Iowa, here in the United states, and it's 5,000 people, a little larger, but still a sea of humanity. But I'm following a man by the name of Zig Ziglar, one of the most famous motivational speakers of all time. And I'm preceding Mary Lou Retton, the famous gymnast. Now, that was probably the perfect level of discomfort. So that went well. So now my brain gets recalibrated from a thousand people to 5,000, from corporate executives to Zig Ziglar and Mary Lou Retton. So I've recalibrated my brain. So I get a call from the organizers, Dr. Groppel, that really went well. We'd like you to speak at our next event. Of course, now I'm full of myself, James. You see, I've got this now, and I say, of course. I said, where is it? Atlanta, Georgia. So I'm thinking the World Congress center, which is their convention center. And I said, of course I'll do it. What's the venue? And she said, the Georgia Dome. Now, for those that don't know, this is the domed building where the. Where the Falcons used to play. I'm going to try to mimic my response, because what I did immediately was going to panic because this is way outside my comfort level. And my response was when she said, the Georgia Dome. I went, where the Falcons play? And she said, yeah, and I'm right. See, I'm in. I'm in panic. Well, how many people? Because I know it seats 65 to 70,000. She said, we can only fill half of it. We think about 30,000. And I'm going, you gotta be blanking. Kidding me. In my brain. This is how the brain works. Now I go into survival mode. It's all about me, James. I'm going, well, who would I be following? And she goes, christopher Reeve. And I'm going, you gotta be kidding. Superman is a quadriplegic. Everybody's gonna be crying when I walk. See, it's all about me. I'm in survival mode. I believe this is how the brain works. We panic, then we're surviving. And I said, oh, my gosh, Christopher. I'm seeing everybody cry when I walk on stage. I'm a good bathroom break now, man. I mean, that's all I am. Nobody knows who I am. And then I go into apathy, like, well, who would I be proceeding? And she goes, margaret Thatcher. And I saw this big thing. Who's he? And the L like the loser. You know, like this guy. This bathroom break is on now. I got. I gotta go use the bathroom before Lady Thatcher speaks. But I said yes. And when I hung up, I said, did I really just say yes? And I got my team together, and I've got. I mean, they would be happy to tell you how hard I worked to prepare for that talk. Because now, see, your sea of humanity usually is out here in front. Well, now it's here and here and here in the rafters. And we did. I did that for five years, though, James. I did that. That. And we sold a million dollars of product from stage, all because I said yes to the big event when I had no training to do it whatsoever. I had to train myself.

Many would have said no. Many would have said, oh, no, that's not for me. What made you lean in?

Naivete. Just believing that. Well, you see, because I'd done this in tennis already. I taught myself to play. I'd never. I'd never had a lesson. I had a beginning lesson, was 11 years old, that I never had a coach until I got to college and I walked on the tennis team and played for a Big Ten university and then coached at a Big Ten university. So I'm going. And then I had started a business. I'd never had a business class, James. I never had a business class. Started a business with Jim Lehrer, as you mentioned earlier. With Jim. And. And we used our own money, and 18 years later, we sold it to Johnson And Johnson, I'd never had a business class. James. So this is kind of my mo. Like, tell me I can't do something or tell me there's a chance. Like, I don't know if you remember the famous movie Dumber, Dumber. There's one of the greatest movie lines of all time. So you're telling me there's a chance.

Hey, James, here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies on all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlund.com will be able to help along with. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

I mean, I think that's been my life, James. So you're telling me there's a chance.

And it's almost like I hear too, Jack, you build the bridge as you cross it and you're figuring it out. But then you got to this 30,000 person dome and then you said you did it for another five years. Why did you continue doing it? What was it about the experience that you made you feel go, this is cool?

Well, it's exhilarating. I mean, this is the danger of being in that kind of a role because it's intoxicating too. It's exhilarating and it's intoxicating. And this is what I think can happen to a lot of people who are in like stand up comedy or professional speaking. You can get, you can get literally addicted to the standing ovation that if you're really, really good, that's where. And, and that became a struggle because my personal life was struggling. So you start falling in love with the wrong things. And that's part of the book as well, is how do you stay grounded and what really matters most to you? That's the question you got to always ask, what matters most right now? And I wish somebody would have counseled me to ask that much earlier in my life.

This is beautiful. I really want to talk about this. So I talk about WMI in my book. So what's most important. And I talk about the pillars of what's most important because as you're sharing your story, I think back to when I was a drummer and I wanted to be a world champion and I became a world champion and I wanted to do it again. And I'd done it again. And I became addicted to winning the world championships. And again and again. Let's do it again. To the cost of my health, to the cost of my marriage. I was using alcohol as a way to de. Stress, as a way to celebrate. I was using caffeine to get me up and get me going. It wasn't good. And so my wmi, what's most important was just winning. That was it.

Yeah.

And it all came tumbling down.

Yeah. As hard as I worked just to be successful, just to. Because, I mean, the good part about this, there is a good side to this. On what you learn. You learn what's called performance on demand. You really do learn performance on demand. You know, at the Olympics, for example, when the gun goes off in a race, nobody cares that you and your significant other had an argument. I mean, nobody cares that you didn't sleep well the night before. I mean, it's, there's no asterisk by your name that you didn't get a medal. And for me, in my youth, that was really important to understand that I had to perform no matter what. Now I wish. James, let's keep, let's keep this straight. The string of thought going. I wish I would have applied that to my personal life. Your connects. The most important person in your life doesn't care that you're doing that great in your professional life. You know, yes, they might want the income. I'm not minimizing that. Yeah, you might be the breadwinner, but in the idea of connection, your career isn't really very well understood. And, and, and when I've heard people say, oh, they understand. I right away go, no, they don't. No, they don't. You think they do. No, they don't. Unless you are really clear in your communication and they feel that they're getting their inner, your energy to them, then maybe they do understand. What's that?

Is it possible to do that in terms of perform at the top of your game and give the energy?

If you have boundaries, if you have good boundaries. Now, what do I mean by that? It's the ability to say no to maybe that invitation. That sounds very appealing, but maybe you say no. So you can go to your child's game or your, your significant other's event, whatever that event is, and you can show them that they, they are as important or more important than anything else in your life. But that's where we have to. We have to have boundaries for it to work. You know, it's not about the intentions. We all have great intentions, but it's about having boundaries to protect what matters most.

That's tricky. And I find that tricky. It's interesting. In the last five years, so my little boy's nine years of age, and the last five years, I've really started to enforce boundaries. So I had this invite. I was in Cape Town at the time, and I had this invite to go to London, England, the following month to the Spotify headquarters, where there would be royal family, there would be guests of honor, sporting legends, and they wanted me to be the emcee and host of this big movie screening for this sports star. And I was excited and my ego was like, oh, my God. Like, that'd be awesome.

Of course. Yeah, I get it.

So I said, yes, in principle. And they said, what does the in principle mean? I said, well, I just need to check my other commitments. I'll come back to you. So I'd say, yes, I'd love to do it, but in principle, I'll confirm. So I go away and I look at my calendar. It's the same day as my son. He was. He was 5, 5 or 6 at the time. Same time as his school play, school production, which was going to be 12,000 miles away in New Zealand. Oh, always. Right. So I'm feeling a bit torn and a bit sick and a bit.

Oh.

But I have a process I take myself through to make decisions and be less emotional and more focused on what's most important. So I went back to the organizer the next day, says, I'm so excited for your event in London. It's going to be awesome. However, I can't make it. I've got another commitment. And I didn't explain what it was or why it was. I just said, I can't make it. They respected it. And I'll tell you what, the two and a half minutes that he was on stage doing his little dance, I was so happy that I was there and not in London, England.

Yeah. Isn't that true? Isn't that the case? And, you know, kudos to you, tip our hat to you to make that decision because it requires tough decisions. And I wasn't willing to make those earlier in my career, but I was later in my career. What changed when I retired? When I retired from Johnson and Johnson In 2019, my wife had gotten divorced, My son's Mom, the adopted son. And he was going into high school, he was going to be living with me. And I literally vowed publicly because I could easily start just keep speaking and make money on my own. And I vowed publicly that I would not get on an airplane for any kind of business whatsoever while he was in high school. And I didn't.

Amazing.

Because that would have been the easy thing for me to do is be on the speaking tour and make money, make a lot of money. But I vowed to him, I'm not going to be on a plane at all when you're in high school. And I didn't for the next five years. I've only just started speaking in the last year.

Wow, that's incredible.

But I made that vow to him publicly because the easy way out for me would be to keep speaking.

And if you did that, what do you think the consequence would be?

Oh, he and I would have been. I would have had to have a nanny for him. It would have been really, really difficult between he and. I don't think our relationship would be near what it is today if I would have done that. And it's strong today because I made that decision.

To me, that's inspiring. You know, I'm in the thick of a speaking career and I looked at my flights for the year so far and by the end of December I'll be at 100 flights. And I don't say that as the badge of honor or something I'm proud of because I get it. Yeah, I want to cut that down. I want to like put that in half or even in a quarter. And I admire that you could do that. And I think that takes a lot of sacrifice. You're stepping away from the adrenaline, the excitement. And you have to have something to step away too. You have to have that long term career that you've built up financially that you can go, I don't need to.

Be on that stage, you know, and things will work out. Because I ended up being for four years, for the four years he was in high school, I ended up being a college professor at a small university and I had a joint appointment in exercise science and in business.

How lucky were they?

So I had a job created for me and it was perfect. I didn't make nearly as much money as I would have been speaking. I mean, you know, but that wasn't about the money and it wasn't about fame and it wasn't about recognition. It was about being available for him.

Yeah, wmi, what's most important.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

So mountains within. It's really interesting. So Sir Edmund Hillary was a superstar here in New Zealand. First to get to the top of Everest and back again. And often he talked about the biggest challenge we ever face is conquering the mountain of ourselves.

Yes.

And these mountains within. Do you believe there's multiple mountains that. That we surmount in our life, or is there one?

Well, there could be one real core mountain. I mean, it could be a childhood wound, but usually there's several. But there could be one core. And this is where I'm a big believer in counseling and therapy. I mean, this is where a really good counselor can help you figure out what's the cause. See, sometimes we just treat symptoms as human beings. We treat symptoms like, I could take care of that. Well, what you might take care of is a symptom. You're not taking care of the problem. And I just encourage people to understand. You know, Jim Collins, in his book Built to Last, had the five whys. That's a really powerful exercise. Why? And then why? And then why? And then suddenly you're now peeling away all the layers of the onion to understand. Well, and I know my core wound was my dad and just being so driven to try to please him, when in fact. And I'll just give you. In the book, I talk about this. The day that I stopped pleasing him happened on that speaking tour that I was on. And I was following a very famous communicator here in the United States by the name of Paul Harvey. Very famous communicator. I was preceding Mikhail Gorbachev from the former Soviet Union, and I was in my hometown. It was called Keel arena at that time. It's now, I think, Enterprise Center. I'm not sure what it's called, but sold out in the round. 20,000 people in the round. My hometown, it's outside St. Louis, outside of Alton, Illinois. And I tell everybody that I'm a hometown guy, and I hit that out of the park. Now what I didn't. My mom and dad were in the audience. It was the first time my dad had ever come to any of my events. So imagine that your first time you ever see your kid is on stage in front of 20,000 people, and he gets a standing ovation. Now I walk up. We have a wonderful picture taken. That picture's in the book. And right after that, I said, so what did you think? And I should have lowered my expectations, James, because here's what I heard. Remember I told you about Paul Harvey, a great communicator. He Goes, my dad. Goes, son, you're pretty good. But Paul Harvey was by far the best speaker of the whole day. And I'm going, you got to be kidding me. I will never be in this situation again, ever.

Wow.

Nothing like this. And I just said, okay. And it was that moment in time that I decided I don't need to please him anymore. Well done. It's over. I don't need to.

How did that feel?

Good. Oh, my gosh, what a blessing that was to come to that realization that I will. If. If. If me being good enough to please you is my metric. I'm done. I'm cooked. I won't. I can't do it. Start drinking. I mean, because it's not going to happen. But as soon as I released myself from that, unbelievable.

What happened in your life around you in terms of. Once you released that, did things start to shift around you?

Oh, yeah. Shifting was huge. I mean, it was eight years later, I went to China to get my son. See, I didn't have a heart for adoption when I was young. I'll never forget, I tell this story in the book, too, that we were going. I loved playing, hanging out with other kids because I was alone. My sister's 10 years older, and she'd already gone off to college. And I'll never forget this. We're going over to this family's house to play. And I love these kids. But my parents said, lower your expectations. And I'm going, why? And they're going, well, because there's another family visiting and they've got an adopted child. And they made it sound like it was a stigma, and it was one of those opportunities where they could have. We could have had a great conversation about adoption. But instead, they let my little brain go off into never never land and create my own story that there must be something wrong with the child. So I never had a heart for adoption, and look at it now. Now I have such a heart for adoption. I believe there's no question in my mind, preordained, whatever you want to think that this son is my son, there's no question he's Chinese. When I look at him, I don't see Chinese. You know, we laugh about the fact that we certainly don't look alike. And by the way, do you remember the story when I told you that I tried to get down on his level, and I smiled and opened my arms? Two years later, we can speak a little bit of English now we're at the dinner table, and I don't know how it came up. But I said, buddy, do you remember the day we met? He goes, yeah, Daddy, you scared me. And I'm going, what? How did I scare you? He goes, well, they had that sheet. And I said, yeah. He says, I came out from the sheet, and this is what I saw. He gets out of his chair, James. He crouches down. He goes, and I'm going to. Oh, my gosh. I was trying to be loving and open and receiving, and I scared the living crap out of my own kid.

That's so good.

By trying to be loving, I scared him to death.

Perception shapes reality, right?

Yeah. So we're all just dying because everybody knew my heart, but my heart wasn't expressed in my physical behavior.

That's unbelievable. I love it.

There's a real lesson there.

Powerful lesson. Now tell me this. One of the biggest lessons I imagine in life is when you try to climb the biggest mountain you can find. And that could be an internal mountain or an external mountain, a physical one. What led you to go, Kilimanjaro, here we go.

Okay. When I was 20 years old, my father called me. I told you I was a tennis player. He called me in the spring of my junior year in college, and he said, tell your coach that you're not going to be able to play many tournaments this summer because we're going to take a trip. And I'm going, yeah, right. Like, see, we were really estranged. And I said, what do you want to do? He goes, we're going to drive to Alaska. And I'm going, what? And I said, dad, we'll kill each other. And he goes, I don't think so. I said, how long is this? He said, about 4,000 miles. We're going to drive. He said, I'm going to take a pickup truck and have a camper made over it like a cover. And we'll put wooden bunk beds in there, and we'll sleep in there, and we'll have our cooking. He said, you'll cook and I'll do the dishes. I've already thought all this through. How long are we going to be gone? About six weeks. I'm going, dad, there's no way we survived this together. Well, we got to do it now. There were tough moments, and all these. Some of these moments are discussed in the book. But the. That trip was the beginning of my father and I reconciling. It was. It was hard, but when I adopted my son, I always. When my dad died, the pastor that gave his eulogy, I didn't know this, but dad talked about the Alaska trip every day of his life, and I didn't know it. So when I adopted my son, and obviously I'm an older father, I wanted to have an adventure with him. And I'm sort of a go big or go home kind of guy. James, you could probably tell that I can sense that. And Kilimanjaro is the highest mountain in the world that you can actually trek. You don't need. You don't need, you know, climbing paraphernalia. You can actually hike it. I mean, there's some scrambling you have to do in some spots, but it's. You don't need external gear. And I called his mom. We were divorced from his mom, and I called her and I said, I'd like to do this with him. Are you okay with it? And she said, well, not really, but I trust you that you'll not let anything happen to him. And it was so funny, because she agreed. And I called her right back. I said, would you mind not saying anything to anybody, because I haven't even told him yet. And she goes, well, what am I going to say to people? Do you know what that idiot wants to do now? I mean, that's kind of. That's kind of how people look at me. You know what that idiot wants to do now? So I took him because he's a cleft palate child, because I didn't know how he'd handle altitude. So I took him to Rocky Mountain national park, and we climbed 12, 14,000ft, and he did okay. So I told him, we got to the top of Pikes Peak, and I said, hey, how would you like to go higher? He goes, how much higher? He's only 10 years old, 11 years old. And I said, maybe a mile vertically. He goes, in the United States? I said, no, Africa. He goes where? I said, it's a mountain called Mount Kilimanjaro. And he goes, okay. That's how he got. This is how he answered me. Okay. So we planned in the very next year. Then we went to Tanzania with a whole group of people. And then J and J did a movement challenge while I was on the mountain. So I was. We had it. We had a satellite connector. So I was. If people look at my Instagram channel, they go back to 2017. Yeah, that's when we did it. 2017. And every night in August, in early August, we broadcast from the mountain on where we were that day. So everybody in J and J. So I had 145,000 people following my climb. I think there's pressure, of course. I love pressure. Right, James? People following the climb. So. And on the mountain, I told you, I'm the oldest. He's the youngest. He started playing cards with everybody at night. And kudos to him. He's 12 years old. He could have easily gone back to the tent and just read or played on his phone or something. But he plays cards now. He and I played cards a lot. Nobody could beat him. So his nickname on the mountain became the big dog. My 12 year old son was the big dog. Me, I was the oldest on the mountain that week. My nickname became babu, which is grandpa. And I'm going, seriously? I've trained my whole my butt off and you're calling me grandpa? So the third day, they found out that I had artificial knees. And the head guide comes up to me and says, is it true about what they say about your knees? And I said, what? He says that you have metal knees. I said, yeah, they're metal. He goes, we changed your nickname. I said, okay, what is it now? He goes, chuma Matu. And I said, what's that mean? He goes, iron Man. And I went, boom. I'm good with that. So that's our next podcast interview is how to go from grandpa to iron man in three days. Jay, that'll go viral. That's right.

God, that's cool. I love it. And so you went to Kilimanjaro and what did that do for your relationship and how did it feel when you stood at the top together?

We left that mountain different men. And I will call him a man. He was only 12 years old. But, you know, it was funny. You don't feel the exhilaration and you don't feel relief. You just kind of did it. It's like, wow, we really did this. You're humbled. Almost. You're almost humbled. And you kind of laugh at yourself because everybody busts their butt to do this mountain. And you're only because you go up there so quickly, because Kilimanjaro is higher than base Camp Everest. So to go to base Camp Everest, if you're going to go higher at Everest, it takes you two weeks to acclimatize. Well, you go to the summit of Kilimanjaro in six days. Wow. So they don't let you stay up there. So everybody bust their butt so that they get a picture in front of the sign. And then you got to go right back down because you don't want you to get sick. You haven't acclimatized long Enough. So you get there and I remember looking around and seeing that you're looking down on the glaciers now. You're looking across the cone and the silt and the scree and you're just kind of going, wow, we did it. He and I did it. And it wasn't. I don't think it was. I can't really name the emotion. It's a sense of calmness that you achieved without the hoopla because nobody's cheering, nobody's jumping up and down. I mean, you're exhausted. First of all, you've been climbing all night. You know, you summit at night, you go from 15,300 to 19,341 overnight. So we left the, we left base camp at like around 10:30. And you're going on switchbacks, going vertically all night. And in fact, there were times at zero degrees, the winds whipping across the mountain, your, your, your, the hoses on your water packs freeze. So you've got to open them up to drink because you can't because the hoses are frozen and you just are humbled. I was hallucinating a little bit on the switchbacks. I was actually. I could see as a child going around a fence post in my grandpa's farm. It was funny as heck. I mean, I knew what was happening because I'm a physiologist. I knew what was going on in my brain. I wasn't getting the oxygen and I was hallucinating. I was fine. I was, I wasn't in any danger. But I knew that what I was envisioning in my brain wasn't really happening. Wow.

Incredible. When you get to the top of that.

What's that?

When you get to the top of that mountain and you get the chance to look out over the vastness, can you recall how you felt at that point? Was there a sense of awe?

Was there a sense of, yeah, oh, it's huge awe? I mean, that morning at sunrise, you can't really see the curvature of the earth, but you perceive that you're seeing the curvature of the earth. You're so high when the sun's coming up. The amount of awe is incredible because the mountain is so expanse. It's such a huge mountain in that it's so broad that everywhere you go it's just like. I mean, it's Kilimanjaro, it's Africa. You're at the roof of Africa. I mean, you hear all the phrases and you're just. It's mind boggling. It's hard to put into words. To express the sense you feel. And then doing it with your 12 year old son, I mean, you can see behind me that's he and I at the summit.

That's beautiful. For those that are listening to audio, I want to encourage the audio listeners to go and watch this on YouTube and see the video. This is incredible.

That's he and I at the summit. Johnson and Johnson had this blown up into a big portrait and everybody signed it at my retirement party.

That would have been a moving gift to receive.

It was amazing.

Well, that's beautiful.

There I am. From tennis magazine. The racket I played tennis. I learned to play tennis with. Oh, yeah. I got all kinds of stuff.

That's seriously beautiful. I love it.

Thank you, man. See that picture now?

Thank you for sharing it. And I want to say just at this stage as well, for everyone that's listening, go get the book. The book is in the show notes. There's a link in the show notes right there. Go click on it. Go buy it.

Thank you.

And enjoy it. So, Jack, writing a book is a mountain in and of itself.

Yeah.

What inspired you to want to take your life's lessons and share them with the world? There's a lot of vulnerability required there.

Yeah. And especially the way I wrote the book because a lot of my friends are saying, why did you do this? Because why didn't you just write about all the good things that you've done? I mean, because that could have been a great book. Could have been all the fun stuff. And I said, yeah, but I don't think I'd help anybody. I think there are a lot of people that have the same struggles in their life that I have of balancing and trying to integrate their career and their personal life. And I said, how I figured it out is probably the long route. But maybe there's people that could learn by having hope, by having mentors in the right place in their life. I'm just a huge believer in mentoring. And I talk about that in the epilogue of the book is how to have hope in whatever you're doing. I mean, see a lot of you. Again, people don't understand this, but on day one that we're going to Kilimanjaro, this is the perfect hit in the face that you get. We woke up. You're not going to be able to take a shower for eight days. There's no water, James. The hotel had no water. So now no shower on the morning, you're getting ready to have no showers at all for eight more days. Then our driver on the way to the mountain, gets lost for over an hour and we're all going. Well, this is encouraging, right? I know. And then we get to the trailhead, Lomocho route, the trailhead. And one of our fellow climbers, a bug flew into her ear and she let out this blood curdling scream. She was so afraid. And we had a doctor with us, thank goodness, that was able to help her. But this is how our climb started. James, talk about hope and discouragement.

Red flags.

Yeah, all kinds of red flags. But yet we did it. And she made it, by the way. We got everything. She got all taken care of. She made it. Everybody in our group but three made it to the summit. It was. It was in a wonderful. And I will tell you, talk about a team building experience. People that I was on that mountain with. You have a closeness now that you would never have in any other situation. Yeah.

A shared common experience.

My son and I are closer because of that. To your point earlier, my son and I are closer because of that.

I bet. And for you to physically do it with, you know, the knees that you've got.

Yeah. Artificial knees.

Unbelievable. Like that's a movie script.

It's kind of funny, man. You know, it is kind of. It's kind of funny.

That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And what's the next mountain for you?

What?

What? You know, we'll talk about these mountains within. What are you climbing right now?

I think it's this book. I think it's really making sure this book gets some. Get some trace, you know, Tread. I mean, helps people in the way that I want doing webinars, like with people like yourself, I mean, really educating people on. I think this stage in my life is to really help people, not from the way I used to. Now it's about boundaries, grounding yourself. Yeah. Be successful. Be successful as hell, but also be successful in your personal life, you know, and really know who you are and be able to answer that question. What matters most right now? Always. I think that's my next mountain. You know, it's. That's it. That's it.

It's beautiful. I think we all need to hear that because I work with lots of athletes and corporate leaders and they want to win on field. That's the most important thing, to win on field. But I try to remind them, like, if you can win on field and win off field, you're winning. That's winning.

Yeah. That's power.

I think it really is. And I think that's. That is the. The art of Winning in a wholesome way at a conversation with an amazing human who is a leader in burnout, a psychologist and a world renowned. He just said to me, james, your definition of high performance is wrong. I said, okay, tell me more. And he said, well, high performance is simply winning. That's it. And I says, well, I disagree. I How many people do we know that have been world winning in the arts, in sport, in business and they take their own lives? That's not winning. That, that's not high performance to me. I said to him, high performance is exceeding the norms consistently whilst maintaining healthy relationships and well being and not perfect relationships, not perfect well being, but healthy. And he just couldn't get it. He's like, nah, it's just winning whether you are, you know.

Yeah, I agree with you 100%. Whatever you want to call it is, it's performing in all areas of your life, you know. See where people struggle with that, I think is they say, well, I shouldn't have to perform in front of my family. Sorry, I disagree. I think you've got to have boundaries and if you don't believe that, answer your phone at dinner sometime. When you're trying to perform at work, when you're in front of your family, it takes performance to put that phone down and not let that interfere with the conversation you're having with a loved one. That does require performance. I'm sorry, I agree 100%.

And at the end of the boundary, you're 95 on your last breath, it's like, well, what matters more? That work call at dinner or the amazing conversation you're having with someone that you loved?

100%. 100%.

That's the beauty.

Yeah, that's the beauty of it. I mean, we're all climbing mountains. Everybody's climbing mountains. That's why I'm really pleased with the title of the book, Mountains within, because we're all climbing mountains. And by the way, if any of your listeners aren't have. Don't have a mountain right now, get ready because one's coming. Yeah, I mean, this is life. Welcome to life. We all know that life is full of mountains and there's barriers and mountains constantly. So if you don't have one now, bless your heart, but it's coming.

Yeah, get ready. And folks, if you want to truly get ready, get a copy of the book right now. I'm going to just remind you it's one of those books. I want to just share this with you. My thoughts. I read a lot, I'm an avid reader. And passionate. And there's two books that I go back to every few years, and I usually go back to them in the summer months when I'm taking some time off. Paulo Coelho's Alchemist is one, and Robin Sharma's the Monk who Sold His Ferrari is the other. And I go back to them because they remind me of what's important. They remind me that it's not about possessions. It's not about money. It's not about winning. Life is so much richer. And it's about purpose and meaning. And when I read your book, I want to say you're in the top three with those guys. It's one of those.

Oh, my goodness. Thank you. I'm honored at that statement. Thank you.

Now, Jack, I'm sure that both those authors would love your book. And in fact, I'll send Robin. I'll get a couple of signed copies from you. I'll send Robin a copy of your book.

My pleasure.

I just think what you do is important. What you do and how you do it is so important for the world right now. And this book is a game changer.

Thank you, my friend. Well done.

And, Jack, I want to be mindful of your time. I could literally chat for hours with you. I want you back on the show again.

This has been great. Oh, I'd love it.

But I want to ask one last question, if you don't mind, please. Okay. So you and I, we're going to head forward into the future many, many years. And I want you to pretend for a moment that you know that it's your very last day here on earth and someone that you love dearly. A very young person comes into the room and says, jack, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What might you say to them?

Make sure you know who you are. Make sure you live who you are, and make sure that person is able to answer this very same question on their last day.

That's beautiful. I really love that. Really powerful. I'm going to ponder that.

You did not prepare me for that. I got it teared up right now because I'm thinking about my son. And. Yeah. Thank you for that.

You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah, I never want to give people a heads up on that one. And comes from the heart.

Yeah, it did.

I could feel it.

Thank you.

I'll make sure that we get that and capture that. And I'll make sure your son gets a little copy of that.

Thank you. Yeah, that'd be very nice. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a real privilege. Let's do it again.

Let's definitely do it again. I'm honored to have you on the show. You're just a world leader, but also, more than that, you're just a great human.

Well, thank you very much. That means a lot. It's such a pleasure to spend some time with you. Really, it's been brilliant.

And best of luck with the book. May it go gangbusters all over the world. The link is in the show. Notes for the listener. Go get it right now. It's in there. Click it. Enjoy it.

Show.

Share it with other ones. And yeah, I just want to say huge, huge thank you.

And thank you as well. It's great to be with you, James.

Thanks, Jack.