Inside the CIA, Mind Control, and Political Division | Lindsay Moran on The Jared Goetz Show

And the truth is, like, someone could kidnap me and torture me right now, and like, I don't have any top-secret information that I can divulge.

But as humans, yeah, once we have our opinion on something, we fight for it. Even if we start to see things that make it seem wrong, we still want to hold on to it for the validation. Yeah, it's like a bias that we have. A former clandestine officer for the Central Intelligence Agency, she is a freelance writer whose articles have appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and USA Today. In 2005, she published her memoir, Blowing My Cover: My Life as a Spy, in which she wrote about her experiences as a case officer from 1998 to 2003. Lindsey Moran. What's your high-level opinion on Elon Musk?

The second greatest cause of vaginal dryness. Don't like him. You treat people in the intelligence community and the FBI with that level of disrespect from someone who is not elected, that is a counterintelligence nightmare.

What's up, Zen Hard listeners? This episode is sponsored by Zendrop. Zendrop has a very special place in my heart, not only because I started the company, but because dropshipping is really a life-changing business for me. You see, I tried tons of things when I first got started, and what I love about dropshipping is that there's always an opportunity to sell a new product to a new person. There's billions of people and millions of products you can sell, and you never need to touch inventory. All you need to do is pick a product, run ads to it, and if people buy it, you make a profit. So if you're interested in getting started in your e-commerce journey, check out zendrop.com and get started today. Hey, what's up guys? Welcome to the Zen Hard Podcast. In this interview, I am talking to Lindsay Moran. She is an ex-CIA operations officer, and I got to ask a whole bunch of questions about the CIA and what that was like that I've always been curious about. Very interesting conversation. Now We have slightly opposing political views, and when I was in the bathroom before the show, I told myself, don't bring up politics, don't bring up politics. Of course, one little comment led to another, led to another, and we dove down the rabbit hole. It wasn't ugly, it wasn't brutal, it was good. It was a healthy conversation. Stay tuned, guys. This one is fun, packed with insightful and entertaining information. Hope you enjoy. You're officially my first— so were you a CIA operative officer? What technically was that?

It's called a CIA— so the CIA terminology is actually like really nerdy and wonky for what an undercover operative is. It's called either a CIA case officer, which sounds sort of like you're like a social worker or something.

Yeah.

Or an operations officer. But those two terms are the terms that the CIA uses that most people on the outside will say like a CIA agent.

Gotcha.

CIA officers such as myself really bristle at the term agent because the agent is actually the foreign source that we recruit to give us information. Ah, yeah. So I'm a former CIA ops officer, case officer, but I was in the CIA's clandestine service.

What does clandestine mean?

It's the CIA. So the CIA is like— a lot of people don't realize this. They think if you work at the CIA, like, oh, you must be James Bond or Jason Bourne. The CIA is huge. There's many people who are not undercover. They're analysts, they're admin people, they're the science and technology people, you know, what you might think of as Q. And then there's also the clandestine service, which is also called the Directorate of Operations. And that is the undercover branch of the CIA.

Okay.

And that's, you know, it's within the CIA, it's sort of considered the elite of the elite.

What percentage of the CIA is made up of that group?

I don't know the exact percentage. And I will tell you one thing that the CIA is super sensitive about is numbers. Like the, the intelligence budget is always classified. That I can't tell you the number of people who were in my training class.

Yeah.

But I can tell you that at that 50% of them were women because at that time the CIA was like making a big push to, to get more female case officers. Um, the percentage that is in the clandestine service, and that is ops officers like I was, I don't know the percentage, but it's very, very small.

Okay.

It's a very small cadre.

So it's like the, the seat, like the, you know, in the military you got like the Navy SEALs and then you got like Delta in the Army and it's like, yes, like the, the best.

Smartest, the best and the brightest. We were always told. I mean, that's debatable, but, but yeah, I mean, it is, right?

I mean, didn't you go to Harvard?

I did, yeah, but I mean, I've known plenty of people at Harvard who were like complete ding-dongs.

Really?

Um, yeah, so that doesn't mean anything.

You could be a ding-dong into Harvard.

Oh yeah, yeah, it's happened before. Um, it still happens to this day. Um, so yeah, I was, I mean, I kind of in some ways, had the pedigree that the CIA during the Cold War looked for, you know, Ivy League. The CIA is actually not allowed to recruit on the campus of Harvard anymore or other—

Why?

Ivy League colleges. You know, the CIA has done some stuff through the years that's controversial, and I think it was after a lot of CIA shenanigans in Latin America in the 1960s and '70s that I'm not sure if it's all Ivy League colleges, but at least Harvard and to my knowledge Yale, which used to be kind of the breeding ground for the CIA. Yeah. That they made it so that the CIA can't recruit on campuses. I mean—

Well, if you're good enough at being undercover, you probably could.

Yeah, you probably could. It still happens. Like, does it not happen? It still happens.

Dress up like a student.

Yeah, exactly.

That's it. So can you make like a lot of money working in CIA? Is there any like really high— I don't know. And by the way, I'm probably going to ask you a lot of things that you can't answer, and that's totally fine. Just tell me.

If there's anything you ask me that I can't answer, I will just let you know. I could answer that, but then I'll have to kill you.

Okay, perfect.

And then I can either answer it or kill you.

Yeah, we're not turning the cameras off. No, like, I'm pretty clear.

You know, I've been out of the agency agency for over 20 years now. So I'm pretty clear about what I can talk about and what I can't. And the truth is, like, I don't have— you know, someone could kidnap me and torture me right now and, like, I don't have any top secret information that I can divulge. You know, I do know some people who are still working undercover at the CIA. But to be perfectly honest, like, a lot of them, I don't even know their last names. Even when I was in the CIA, we all had pseudonyms.

Really?

Within the agency itself. Oh, wow. Yes. My closest friends, I know their first and last names, but many of them—

So you couldn't even find them on Facebook?

No. And most CIA— how I know that my CIA friends are still in the CIA is they're not on Facebook. But anyway, back to your original question, like, can you make a lot of money? You shouldn't be making a lot of money if you're a CIA officer, because if you're making a lot of money, that probably means that you have like sold out to the Russians or one of our foreign adversaries.

Like you get paid under the table.

Yes, you're getting paid by someone else. It's not a career that I think anyone goes into to make money. I mean, you can lead a comfortable life financially and exist. Like me leaving the CIA was economically probably one of the worst decisions that I could make. But at the end of the day, it's not a huge salary. It's a government salary.

Right.

It's comparable to, you know, other federal bureaucrats. You are able to pocket more money, or I guess I would say like squirrel away more money because there's a lot that is paid for, right, by the CIA. Well, not by the CIA, by the US taxpayers.

Right.

So, for example, like when I lived overseas, you know, my housing's paid for, right? I had a car provided to me. So any money that I'm making, I'm able to just save. Of course, I still have to pay taxes. So yeah, I was able to save a decent amount of money, but it's not really the kind of career you go into because you're motivated.

So there's no like ranks in the CIA that it's like when you finally get there, it's like you're rolling in?

No. I mean, even the highest level, you know, SIS, senior intelligence service officers, that's what we call the people on the 7th floor. The 7th floor of the CIA is where all the muckety-mucks sit. Even they, at the end of the day, they're making a government salary. But, you know, if you invest wisely and you're able to save money.

You make a good living.

Yeah, you make a good living. And the other thing that I would say about being an ops officer is you're, you're, Job is 24/7. So pretty much every expense that you have, the government will pay for it. Right. And so, you know, there were ops that I would arrange and I didn't arrange them to be the most expensive excursions. But like if I was, you know, for example, I was running and this was back in 1999 or 2000. Running an agent who lived in Serbia, in Belgrade.

Okay.

I couldn't meet that agent in Belgrade. We didn't have an embassy there. It was very hostile toward the U.S. at that time. So to meet this particular source, I would have to travel somewhere else and have her travel somewhere else. So we met at a 5-star resort in Cyprus. Yeah. And so, you know, not like I was trying to waste taxpayer dollars. That's just the way it was done.

Yeah.

And partly, I mean, you could say, oh my gosh, what ridiculous waste. Like, you should meet this woman, you know, out of—

there's a lot more waste out there than people that are working for our country that are serving our country. I think it's— I would support that.

Yeah. I mean, that person is serving the United States. At an extraordinary risk to her/himself. And your job as a CIA ops officer is to figure out what motive— what is going to motivate someone to give you secret information. And so, yeah, a nice vacation at a 5-star resort in Cyprus when you're living in Belgrade that had just been bombed and you're barely making it, Like, that's an incentive.

So— How do you recruit agents? Like, how do you find people in these countries that are— like, how do you even approach someone to be able to get them to come on your side?

Well, I mean, it's a great question. And it's a process. And the CIA, when they recruit for the clandestine service, when they recruit ops officers, they look for certain characteristics. And I think I have all those characteristics. I think that's one of the reasons that I was hired. And it was characteristics that no matter how different I was from some of my colleagues, we did share. And a lot of it is being able to read people, like being able to figure out, you know, what motivates Jared? Like, what's gonna, you know, what are, what are his vulnerabilities and what are his motivations? What are the characteristics that I can exploit, right, to get this person to give me information. And so there's a whole process. I'll take a step back. There's a whole process basically called the recruitment cycle. And this is something that we received extensive training in. But in many ways, it's not— it's not unlike dating. It's not unlike a courtship. It's like you're, you know, you get into a situation, you get into a foreign country, And the first thing that you're doing is trying to spot viable targets, um, who— getting out there, meeting people, who are the people who have access to information that the U.S. government might want.

Right.

And then once you've identified those people, that's the spotting process, then you're assessing them. Like, do they exhibit some of the characteristics that I might be able to exploit to get them to commit espionage?

And then how, how are you assessing them if you don't really know them yet?

Well, you got to get to know them. And so one of the things that I was going to say about people that the CIA recruits for this particular role is you have to be able to talk to anyone, right? You have to be able to find an excuse to talk to anyone. And a lot of relationships start with what's called a bump. So that is like maybe the CIA has identified someone in the country that they think has access to information that we might want. And so you got to figure out what that person's pattern of life is.

Yeah.

Find a way to run into him or her. Most of our targets are men, I will say. Find a way to like put yourself in that person's path. I mean, I used to do this all the time in college. Like if I had a crush on a guy, like I'd figure out like, what is easier for a woman to do that?

Than a man.

Much easier for a woman.

Yeah.

Like, I could go on for hours about the advantages that—

of course.

Yeah. Female operatives have. There are additional challenges. But anyway, then, you know, so you execute what's called a bump. Your first goal in a bump is just to secure a second meeting, just to, like, develop enough rapport or come up with an excuse that you can meet that person again. And that starts what's called the development process, which is the next step in the recruitment process. And during the development process, it's, it's kind of like a courtship. You're like doing things with that person, you know, and meeting them.

You still haven't disclosed to them that you're— Yeah.

At that point, you have— you would not have disclosed that you work for the CIA, but as the relationship develops, And sometimes you might never disclose it. Ah. But there are good reasons to disclose it, and I can kind of get into that because I think that surprises people sometimes. They're like, wait, why would you tell anyone you work for the CIA?

Well, then you can get more specific information if they're on your side, right? I'd imagine.

Yeah. And like, they need to— I mean, on the one hand, it's kind of an ethical issue. Like, these people are taking extraordinary risks. And so— and you're going to have to eventually keep that relationship secret. So you, you want them to know what they're getting into. You want them to be fully on board and you want to get to that point, which is called the pitch, where you actually recruit them. And, um, and then they're on the CIA payroll and you can tell them what to do. I mean, you still have to work on rapport and make sure that they're happy and comfortable and, you know, not giving you false information, not giving you useless information. So it's, It's all, it's all really about psychology.

And how do you— sorry to interrupt.

No, yeah, yeah.

I'm just curious, like, so you're, you're in this country, in this foreign country. Nobody knows that you're part of the CIA. You bump into someone, you start to develop rapport. You find out they're really important. They have great information. How do you decide how much to offer them? Like, obviously if you offer them a lot of money, they're probably more likely to help. If you offer them a little bit, they're probably less likely. Like, how did, how do you guys come up with that? And like, how, how high do those budgets get? Do you ever pay people a lot of money to, to—

Oh yeah.

I mean, yeah.

There are CIA agents who are paid extraordinary amounts of money that, you know, certainly exceeded my salary.

Yeah.

There's a number of factors that go into that, like what is the importance of the information they're providing? What is the standard of living where they are?

Right.

You know, like, I mean, I was operating in the Balkans where like, At that time, the standard of living wasn't that great. So a very small investment from the CIA, whether it be like $400 a month or something, would have made a big difference there. There are other parts of the world where there's a much higher standard of living. So it's all kind of a— you negotiate that. You as— like I as the case officer or ops officer, I would write a proposal back to headquarters like, I want to recruit this person. I've been developing this person. He has access to this information. Like, I'm ready to recruit him. I'm ready to do the pitch. And it's a back and forth between you and headquarters where, you know, you have to, you have to really outline what are the details of the pitch? Where are you going to pitch this person? What is your pitch going to sound like? What are you going to do if there's blowback? What are you going to do if he like, stands up and is like, oh my God, you're the CIA. Like, I'm going to go report you, you know? And you write this all up and you go back and forth with headquarters and then you usually, you know, figure out what's a reasonable amount to offer this person. Are you going to offer a signing bonus? It's all very like in a weird way, even though it's super secret, like it all has to be documented. You have to get them to sign a receipt. Like, they, they don't have to use their real name. They could sign Ronald McDonald, but they have to sign a receipt because it's government funds, right? So it's a process. I mean, that's all part of—

have you ever had a negotiation where you offered something, the person's like, no, and they offered more and they're like, no, and then maybe eventually they said yes? Like, were they just—

no. It's funny because the first time that I pitched someone, and you know, I I was nervous because it was the first time I'd done it.

Yeah, I can imagine.

But I'd been meeting with this guy for a few months, several months. And, you know, the rapport was there. He was giving decent information. And so at the pitch meeting, I broke cover with him and I said, you know, I have to tell you, like, I work for— I actually work for the CIA. And he was like, I love the CIA! He was thrilled.

That went better than you expected.

Oh my God, totally. And so the challenge with him actually became that he was so eager and excited about— there were a couple of challenges with him. One, he kept hoping that there would be some romantic part of our relationship, and I kept having to tell him that was never going to happen.

Is that against ethics, by the way?

It is, yeah. Like, you're not, you're not, it is totally forbidden for a CIA officer to have a romantic relationship with one of their sources.

Like, you'd get fired for that?

You could and probably should get fired, but it has happened.

Sure.

And it's been brushed under the carpet. And I will say this, it happens a lot more with male case officers.

Yeah. They have less self-control.

Yeah. And I mean, it's funny because I definitely like, there was a little bit of a double standard at the agency at the time that I was there. And I think there still is that, you know, women are weaker and they would be more susceptible to the wiles of foreign intelligence. And throughout the course of history, whether it be the CIA, the Marines, you know, the Secret Service.

Yeah.

Like, respectfully, it's always like the men who are just fucking stupid or, you know, naive or whatever, and they think that this woman who's really interested in them—

yeah—

is really interested in them. And sure enough, it's like a Russian spy or a honeypot.

Spied on back.

Yeah. So I mean, one of the Challenges as a female officer, though, is that you have to manage that relationship. And it's a tension that you can't— you can't go in with like sort of an American, like, this is sexual harassment. You know, it just doesn't work that way. Of course, you know, you're operating in parts of the world that where sexism is a thing that, you know, far exceeds sexism that we see in the United States. And so for me, I always looked forward to that moment when I could and would break cover if it was a male target, because that enabled me to sort of like, all right, this is a business relationship. Yeah, I'm your boss.

Yeah.

And like, I'm going to be paying you money. You're going to be giving me information.

Yeah.

And the guy that I was just telling you about, and I wrote about him in my book, I called him Ahmed in the book, but I mean, he was hilarious. Like, at one point I finally said to him, like, we are never having sex. Like, that is not going to happen.

Yeah.

And he was like, can we hold hands? We can't hold hands.

Sure, I'll hold your hand for a few minutes.

But in some ways you can't blame the guy because to go back to that development process, when you're recruiting a potential source, you're, um, you know, flattering the person, playing upon their ego, um, you know, saying things like, you know, I'm so sorry that your boss doesn't appreciate your point of view because I have to tell you, some of the things that you've told me, I have conveyed them through secret channels back to policymakers in Washington, DC. And the President of the United States is interested in what you have to say.

Wow.

And so you're playing upon their ego.

Yeah.

You know, that's gonna give anyone a hard-on. Yeah.

And then it's a little like bit of an excitement in a mundane life. It's like, totally, yeah, experience I might have.

Yeah, like, oh my god, here's this like— I mean, at that time I was young, but this like, you know, young female like US government person who's telling me that what I have to say isn't important, and she's whispering it into the ears of like the President of the United States. So that's gonna give them a rush, that's a motivator. And then at the same time, like even before you break cover, you're like, so by the way, you can't tell anybody about our relationship. Like don't tell anybody, like you can't even tell your wife.

Yeah, yeah.

I want us to start to meet in places where people won't see us. So you can't blame someone for getting the wrong idea.

Yeah, I mean, it screams the wrong idea in every way possible. Screams the male fantasy of someone in that part of the world.

Right, exactly. And so, but, you know, the CIA, like, does not, you know, female CIA officers are not honeypots. We don't, you know, exchange sex for information. Now, a lot of intelligence services do use honeypot, you know, the Russians, like Russian intelligence office, female intelligence office.

Anything goes.

Yeah, anything goes, you know, Mossad too, you know, these are intelligence services that like either don't have the congressional oversight that like ours does, or also it's like, in the case of the Russians, like what? They don't care. Like, there's no moral, ethical parameters. Yeah. And in the case of Mossad, you know, also like fighting for Israel, fighting for its life. So like anything goes.

I mean, that kind of inherently gives us a disadvantage.

Yeah. I mean, I will say like we get around it. We managed to get around like those. So when I say like female case officers are not dangled as honeypots, But would we potentially recruit a stripper or an escort or something to be our— what we call an access agent?

Like, she's going to get us access to the actual target, and you play like you're their friend, you're their best friend, and it kind of opens a relationship.

Yeah, I mean, or we could, we could actually recruit someone who is a honeypot. I guess the point is like I, as the, you know, CIA officer trained at the farm, I'm not going to be the honeypot.

Right.

But like, we don't have any moral or ethical qualms about dangling some foreign prostitute in front of a target.

I mean, it's important information you need to get.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I don't— I have no problem with that. Like, I mean, I did, you know, ultimately leave the CIA for some ideological differences. Um, but like that kind of thing, it's dirty. It's a dirty business.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, so it's like you kind of have to do what you need to do. I guess it also depends on the severity and the importance of the information you're trying to get. Yeah, it's— I have a couple directions I want to go. First question I did want to ask though, like, have you had any situations where you needed an escape plan? Like when you— or does that happen often when someone discloses and then someone kind of backfires on them? Are you guys like armed? Do you have like, yeah, you know, like bodyguards, people that can save you if you get into a bad situation?

I never had that experience. I never had to have that experience. There are certainly situations where that is needed and you would need like CIA security or backstopping. But I'll be honest, like I never feared for my life. So, like, unlike sort of typical Hollywood depictions of espionage, you know, where you're like car chases and scaling walls and blowing up safes and running from assassins, that's not ever happening. Like, no, you're in a hotel room or a parked car with like a fat Serbian man, like trying to figure out like, like, what do I have to offer this guy?

The movie wouldn't be as entertaining if it was like that.

No, it would— if you actually filmed a day in the life of a CIA officer, I mean, a lot of it is driving around, making sure you're not being followed, whatever. So I never had to have that kind of escape plan. I mean, I will tell you, I was serving in Macedonia, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and this is back in 1999 and 2000, and the country was falling apart. And everyone but essential personnel at the U.S. Embassy and the U.S. presence there was sent home. And so there was like— I remember kind of this realization because I was like a young new officer that like, I wasn't really factored into the CIA's escape plan, you know. And so my plan, you know, if things really went to shit was like, all right, I was just going to like go out on the street and like I spoke the language well enough to kind of blend in. I looked—

Do you learn the language of these places?

Yeah. I mean, I spoke Serbo-Croatian. The agency trained me in Serbo-Croatian, which is not the same as Macedonian, but all Macedonians, because it used to be part of Yugoslavia at that time, spoke Serbian. You know, my house and all CIA residences had a safe room, like with, you know, double steel reinforced doors and everything. And it was kind of funny because my then-boyfriend eventually became my husband, is now my ex-husband. But he came to visit me in Macedonia when I was working for the CIA. And like, my safe room happened to be a bathroom. It was a big bathroom. It was like almost as big as the studio. But it had like these extreme security measures. And he was just like, oh my God, this chick is like really into her bathroom privacy. This is crazy. So when I was in Macedonia, it was the agency at that time was going to declare it a danger post. And in which case we would've been, I had weapons training, I probably would've received more weapons training and been issued a firearm. But our chief at the time did not want it to be declared a danger post because that would mean folks who had families over there to include him, you know, their families would have to come home. So lobbied for it not to be declared. And frankly, I didn't really feel in danger there. Like the biggest risks I took, honestly, were like driving on, you know, back roads in the Balkans from Macedonia to Bulgaria to Serbia or wherever, where there's like no streetlights.

Yeah.

I mean, there were definitely times like I did some operating in Belgrade where like if I had been caught, particularly because I was traveling an alias, like it would have been really bad. But I didn't have a weapon. I didn't have any— Really? No, I didn't have any like team that was going to come in and save me.

The technology back then was not what it is now. Did you guys have any technology that didn't really exist publicly, like for communications or for recording things or?

Yeah, I mean, we did like, it's funny because like, you would think that the CIA has like the state of the art technology.

Yeah, you would think that.

Yeah. But like, I mean, I mean, just to give one example, like our concealment devices, like I had this like portfolio that was like a CIA-issued concealment device. It probably cost the American taxpayers like $500. And I like, Gave it to my mom. I'm like, can you find the secret compartment? And she was like, mm, oh. It's just like horrifying. So, but in terms of technology, I mean, obviously, you know, we were using encrypted communication methods, you know, specific to the CIA. But a lot of tradecraft is kind of sticks and bricks. It's kind of like, It's kind of low-tech. I mean, if you think about what enabled Osama bin Laden to evade US and Western intelligence for over 10 years, it was because he wasn't using technology. He was using like carrier pigeons. I mean, not carrier pigeons, but like a courier. And so interestingly enough, the most tried and true tools of tradecraft tend to be the most rudimentary and low-tech.

Yeah, so there weren't any like tech devices or anything that you saw when you were in the agency that were like mind-blowing to you?

No, I mean, I had some stuff that like you'd see on Get Smart. Like I had some paper that you could put in water and it would dissolve, and I thought that was really cool. Yeah, that's kind of cool. Um, I mean, it's cool, but it's not like super high-tech. It's like you could probably get it at like you know, some sort of gadget store, Spencer's or whatever. So, yeah, it's a shockingly low-tech trade. I mean, that's not to say that we, you know, that we don't, like, employ the latest technology in terms of our electronic communications. But your communications, my communications with the agents that I was running were not electronic. And I mean, kind of a funny story to go back to that guy Ahmed, who like, you also, you have to train your agents on basic security precautions, like how to run a surveillance detection route, which is, you know, how to be able to tell if somebody's following you. But the other thing is, you know, I told this guy like, Okay, when we meet, you know, I'm going to pick you up. I'm going to do what's called a car pickup. I'm going to pick you up on this, in this alleyway or whatever. We're going to have our meeting while I'm driving around, or maybe we'll go park at a park or something, someplace that I had, that I had reconed beforehand. But I would say, you know, don't bring your cell phone with you, or, you know, at least take the battery out or turn it off, whatever. I mean, this was back when, like, that they weren't smartphones at that time or in that part of the world. But inevitably, I'd be on my way to the place where I was going to pick him up. And like, my— one of my cell phones would ring. And he'd be like, Lisa, he knew me as Lisa. Lisa, I am on my way to the place. And I'm like, fuck, what are you doing?

You're blowing it.

Yeah, just Yeah. And I, you know, I would tell him like, okay, I'm going to pull up and, you know, you'll see on my car, I'll have a safety signal, like maybe my, what's that thing on the windshield called that you flap down?

On the windshield? Oh, like the visor.

The visor.

Yeah.

Sorry. I just had a spaced on what that word was. You know, I'll have my visor down on the passenger side and that will be my signal to you that it's safe to get in the car, whatever. And, but you should just stand back. And when I slow down, come get in the car. And like one time I went to pick him up and he, he had bought me like a bouquet of flowers. He like stood in front of the car waving like he was bringing an aircraft in. I mean, and just, you know, causing as much of a scene as possible. Yes. And this was in the Balkans, which is, it's not, you know, the internal security services were not as aggressive. I mean, a place like Moscow, like, no way.

Have you been to a place like that on the job?

Belgrade was pretty, like, that was a scary place to operate because I didn't know, we didn't know, like, what the capabilities were.

Are there levels internally in the espionage where, like, certain agents or certain officers go that others can't go to? Like, are there ranks within what you were doing?

A little bit. I mean, it depends. It's like every case officer receives the same rudimentary training, which is at the CIA's facility called the Farm. Used to be super top secret, but everybody knows about it. So that's where you go through your initial field tradecraft training. But if you're going to operate in a place like Moscow or, you know, Beijing or I mean, even, even some places like, you know, New Delhi, like you wouldn't think, oh, the Indians, you know, they're kind of our allies and they're incredibly aggressive security service.

Wow.

So, but Moscow in particular. So if you're going to operate in a place like that, you're going to get additional training.

What does that look like?

It's like a lot of, a lot of more extensive training on detecting surveillance. And some training on being able to operate like in the black. So, and let me explain what that means. Like if I detect any kind of surveillance in my, you know, say I'm a CIA officer and I'm in Cyprus or whatever, you know, and I detect surveillance, I'm going to call off that operation.

Yeah.

And do it another time or do it another place or find a workaround. A place like Russia or China where you have to assume that as an American you might be surveilled all the time.

Right.

You know, you, you might have a beacon on your car or whatever. Then you would receive extensive training on how to conduct operations while being shofelled, while being in the black. Yeah. But I will also say, like, that happens rarely. Like, not, not that the CIA— I mean, the CIA is risk-averse in those situations for a reason, right? Because if you do get caught, that's bad. So it's like you'll get all the training to operate in the black, but probably you're not going to be able to do a lot. And it was one reason, like, I was never super interested in serving in a place like Moscow or at that, you know, at one point, like, I was slated to go to Havana in Cuba, which, like, kind of would have been cool, but I kind of didn't want to because what I did like about my role is that, you know, I could kind of be out and mingling with foreigners, which is like something that I like.

It's fun.

You know, yeah. Like, I didn't really want to like be in an environment where it was that—

Yeah, high pressure.

Yeah, just really high pressure, scary, and also just kind of fucks with your mind a little bit.

You probably get pretty paranoid.

Yeah.

If you always feel like you're being surveilled.

Yeah.

Have they ever like killed a CIA officer that they found as a spy in these countries? Is that—

Yeah, there have been CIA officers who have been assassinated, you know, identified as CIA officers, assassinated. I mean, that's happened several times throughout history.

What does the US do to retaliate for that? Or is it kind of like just fair game? Like, hey, we have to let it go.

Well, it's not necessarily that it's fair game, but, you know, the CIA has a wall of stars, anonymous stars for CIA officers who have been killed in the line of duty. And, you know, similar to the military or anywhere else, it is, it is a risk that is part of the job.

Would you say it's more or less risky than being like a New York City police officer?

I think it's less risky. Yeah, I think it's more risky to— I think it's more risky for me to drive from Fort Pierce to— Yeah, down here to West Palm just because the, you know, the the other ways that there are to die in the world. Like, I don't mean to sound cavalier or, you know, act like, well, I'm so brave, you know, I never feared for my life. It's just that it does happen, but it is rare. I mean, there have been cases of real, you know, travesties of CIA officers. There was a suicide bomber who killed, I think it was 7 CIA personnel in Khost, Afghanistan. He was— there's a book about it called The Triple Agent, fascinating book. But this was an al-Qaeda source that had been recruited by the Jordanians. And we, the CIA, had a liaison relationship with Jordanian intelligence. Jordanian intelligence brought us this source, and this source was ostensibly very high up in al-Qaeda. And we thought that this source would be a way to get us to Ayman al-Zawahiri, who was the second in command of al-Qaeda. And the chief of base in Khost, Afghanistan, at a place called Camp Chapman, was a CIA analyst. She had not received the same training, obviously, that a CIA ops officer was, but she was acting as the chief of base. And there was a plan made to bring this agent to meet people at Camp Chapman. And the CIA was so excited about this high-level source. That they, and particularly this chief of base, there was basic security protocol. Like normally, if you were going to bring an al-Qaeda source into a CIA base, there would be rings and layers of security.

I would imagine.

Body searches, dogs, whatever. All of that was— they didn't do any of that.

Because they were excited. They just wanted to—

Because they were excited and And there were a couple CIA officers and contractors who were writing back to headquarters and saying, "This isn't cool. This is not right." In any event, the source ended up being a suicide bomber.

Wow.

And, yeah, like detonated right at the CIA base.

That's probably the scariest part of that part of the world is that you have people that would actually kill themselves to kill other people. Yeah. Because that's not a cultural norm in other parts of the world.

Yeah. I was going to say, like, on the one hand, you know, I didn't want to serve in a place like Moscow or Havana just because I felt like I would be constrained in what I could do. I really loved the Balkans, which is like sexist enough that nobody suspected I was CIA.

Right.

But not so sexist that I couldn't go out and like operate, you know. I also wouldn't want to be in a place like the Middle East where I think there's very little that a female case officer can do.

Right.

And where it's not the spy versus spy game that we have to a certain extent with Russia, certainly with all of our allies, we do spy on our allies. You know, it's a fact that, like, if I were to get wrapped up in Moscow or something, probably I'm going to be humiliated and I'm going to be sent home.

Yeah.

But, you know, if a terrorist figures out that I'm a CIA officer, I'm going to be tortured and killed.

Yeah. Um, big risk.

Yeah.

Yeah. That makes sense. So when you're going to these other places, obviously you're not going with your personal identity, right? You have a kind of a different identity, I'm assuming, different name.

Uh, it depends. Like, if you're stationed somewhere, typically you're using your real name. So for example, I was stationed in Macedonia. I was using my real name, Lindsay Moran. I was undercover, but I was posing as a U.S. diplomat. But then when I would do specific, like, missions— and by mission, I don't mean, like, scaling a wall in a black catsuit. I mean, like, going to Vienna to pick up my alias docs to go to Cyprus so that I can meet with an agent. Then I would use an alias.

And would they give you, like, fake passports and identification?

Mm-hmm. And I've got to be honest with you, I don't know how that's working with biometrics now. You know, when I was doing that, it was before the days of biometrics. So I think there's probably a lot more— there's a lot more liaison with our allied intelligence services. So that if a CIA officer is traveling in alias— I don't know this for a fact, but this is my conjecture— that if a CIA officer is traveling in and out of an allied country, we might tell the security services there we're going to have a CIA officer who's traveling in.

Right.

And then there would be a pass. But yeah, I would routinely travel in alias, which sounds really like cool and sexy, but is actually super stressful. It's like a lot of time like sitting in a bathroom stall, like, going over my new social security number in my head and what's my astrological sign and like all of that.

Yeah, yeah, trying to play character.

Yeah.

Did you ever learn about anything like— I don't know, I've read that, or I actually read a document, it was like a CIA document that talked about astral projection, like getting into like a meditative state and being able to go somewhere else through a higher dimension to get information. Is that something you've ever heard about before?

I haven't heard about it, but I mean, I wouldn't scoff at it. Like, I would say sometimes I would do kind of like a low-level version. Like, if I was traveling in alias, I would kind of try to approach it almost like as a method actor.

Yeah.

And really meditative is probably the wrong way to put it, but really kind of like embody the character or the role that I was playing.

Ellie, can you pull up— I forgot if you searched— what's it called? Gateway Experience. There's a specific CIA document that's been unclassified, uh-huh, and it teaches you how to go into a resonance tuning and project and kind of go in other places while you're physically here. And it was a declassified CIA document.

Never heard of that, but that sounds fascinating.

I read it.

The CIA has done some kooky stuff through the, you know, like the CIA was responsible for like all the LSD, you know, experimentation at Harvard.

And is that the document? Can I see that real quick?

MKUltra, like, yeah.

Which one is this one? Yeah, here we go.

Do you know when it was written?

This was, uh, 1983.

Okay, so that, yeah, that totally makes sense.

Like, yeah, the CIA is kind of, you know, Kundalini psychosis or transcendence, biofeedback gateway and Hemi-Sync. This is a CIA document for frequency following response, role of resonance. It teaches you how to kind of tune your brain and then it it shows you like a consciousness energy grid. We could put up an image of this on the podcast so people can see it. But this is a CIA document.

No, I'm fascinated by that. You'll have to send that to me. I mean, I will say I've never heard of it, but I certainly don't disbelieve that. That's like the CIA has done some really kooky stuff.

Yeah, this one's wild. I actually— I remember I read this. It's 29 pages. I read the whole document one time and I was like, this is fascinating because it all makes sense. Yeah, like, like if you, if you read it, it makes sense.

But it's like, I mean, it sounds like if you really like could become a practitioner, it could be really useful.

Yeah, I didn't know if that's something that they openly talked about. What was MKUltra?

So MKUltra was— oh my god, it's like we could like— that, that could be like a whole episode in and of itself. But so the CIA conducted a number of experiments using LSD and did experiments on unwitting Americans using LSD and trying to determine, could these be a truth serum? Could we use LSD to manipulate or get information from our, from foreign sources? And if I'm being completely honest, also probably just because before the— I forget exactly when— there was something called the Church Commission. I think it was like during the 1970s where there suddenly started to be oversight of the CIA. But before that, it was basically—

Free for all.

Kind of a free for all. Yeah. And it was, you know, it's always been sort of a good old boys' network. So you have all these like, Before the CIA, there was a period where the CIA did heavily recruit from law enforcement, but before the— and then later from the military. But before that, as I said, like the CIA was kind of like the breeding ground for agency officers was Harvard, Yale, Princeton. So you had all these sort of like privileged WASPy guys, you know, with— unlimited budget and just, you know, a mandate to defeat communism or keep the U.S. safe from communism. And they just kind of did whatever they wanted.

Yeah. So with MKUltra, they were experimenting using LSD specifically to see if it can become a truth serum or open people up to share more information.

Yes. Yes.

That's really interesting.

Yeah.

Did it work?

Uh, no. Um, but, uh, there was a case And I can't remember the details, so I'm sorry about that. But there's a very famous case of a guy who like either jumped or fell out of a building and lived or jumped. No, no. And didn't live. Jumped, fell, or was pushed out of a building. And the speculation was that like he knew all about the MKUltra.

Ah, that's a conspiracy theory.

Activities. Well, the guy actually did die.

Yeah.

So, you know, I don't know if it's so much a conspiracy theory as like one of those things that, you know, may never see the light of day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Are there any conspiracy theories out there that you are like, yeah, that's actually true based on the things you know?

Oh gosh. I mean, recently I've really been hoping that maybe there is a deep state, but like, it turns out there's not.

You don't think so?

No, no. I mean, the whole deep state conspiracy, what's so What's funny to me about that is like—

Inform the listeners on what the deep state conspiracy is.

So the deep state conspiracy is, to my knowledge, and I'm not an expert on what the actual conspiracy is, but to my knowledge is that there is like a left-wing driven deep state within the CIA and the FBI, you know, goal is to, like, overtake the U.S. government or the world or whatever. And it just couldn't be farther from the truth. Like, the— as a CIA officer, you generally park your politics at the door.

Yeah.

Like, it's a nonpartisan— Right. It is meant to be a nonpartisan entity.

Yeah.

It tends to, it tends to lean right.

Yeah. Okay.

Pretty not, not far right, but it tends to lean right because people who are attracted to, I think, the lifestyle, the mission, you know, like tend to be patriots or at my time tended to be, you know, patriotic Americans. You want to do what's right by America. You want to work to keep America safe from our enemies. So it attracts— it tends to attract people who lean right.

Yeah.

And, you know, that's not to say that, like, everybody at the CIA when I was there was a Republican, but by and large, like, it was a pretty right-wing organization and still is and always has been. The difference, I think, between then and now is, as I said, like, we pretty much, like, parked our politics at the door. Like, I didn't talk about it with colleagues. You know, we didn't— it didn't matter who the president was. The president in the CIA is called the first customer. And that means that, like, that's— that's who— that's who we're gathering this intelligence for. Right. Yeah. And whatever the First customer wants to know, our job is to find that out for him.

Right.

But the CIA's job is not to, um, is not to create policy.

Right.

It's to get information.

Right. That makes sense.

Yeah.

I think, well, I really feel like politics has changed, and I believe you and I have slightly different political views, and I don't want this to be a political debate by any means. I respect your views and I'm sure you could maybe say the same about mine, but I feel like politics have changed a lot, especially in recent years, mostly because of how much information there is. Like, for example, I saw— I was— I don't have social media on my phone anymore, but I did maybe call it 6 months ago.

Yeah.

And I saw the exact same video posted twice on Twitter, on X. Yeah. And it was a video of Israeli soldiers and Palestinian civilians and they got into a conflict.

Yeah.

And one post said Israeli soldiers dropped off food and then they got attacked.

Right.

And the other post said Israeli soldiers lured in civilians and attacked them.

Right.

And it was the exact same video.

Yeah, that's fascinating.

And the algorithms are very good at serving you exactly what you already believe because it keeps you on the platforms more.

Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I could, you know, I will I'm very disheartened and dismayed by the way— by the divisiveness in the country.

Yeah.

And I think politics have a lot to do with that. I think we seem to be stuck in this, you know, like bad cycle of like on the right and the left, the most extreme voices are the loudest.

Yeah.

And I do actually believe that, like, most Americans are more alike than they're different.

100%.

Yeah. And I don't have the— I don't like politics, to be honest. Like, I don't like talking. I don't even like talking about politics with people that I agree with. Yeah. But I'm extremely frustrated by the inability— and I have this in myself too— the inability to meet halfway and have reasonable discussions.

Yeah, well, there's a— I forget what you call it, but as humans, yeah, once we have our opinion on something, we fight for it. Even if we start to see things that make it seem wrong, we still want to hold on to it for validation.

Yeah.

It's like a bias that we have.

And I don't know what's going to break us out of that. I do know that allowing politics to infiltrate our most important institutions, whether it be the CIA, the military— and when I say politics, I'm not just saying right-wing politics, left-wing politics— allowing that to enter those workforces and muddle the mission, it just makes us weaker.

Yeah.

And I feel like we are very weak right now and we're very vulnerable. And the, the goal of our enemies has always been to divide Americans.

I mean, not, not a conspiracy theory, but like what's most divisive to us now is the media we consume because the algorithms are so good at continuing to feed your opinion and build it, which makes you more and more divisive. It's to a point where if you see something that you agree with and you open up the comments, you're gonna see all the comments that align with you. But if you open up someone else's phone that disagrees with it, yeah, they're gonna see comments that disagree with it, right, to fuel that.

Yeah.

And if that starts to infiltrate the organizations that actually, you know, run the missions, that does make us weaker as a society.

Yeah.

So it's like, do you think there's foreign intelligence that actually invades the media that we consume?

100%. I mean, I've been the victim of it myself. I've been in like community chat groups where like a Russian bot shows up and just, you know, they just stir the pot.

Yeah.

And, um, I It's, it's really dangerous and it's really disheartening. And I'll tell you honestly, like, I really struggle. You know, I've got two sons, one's 20 and one's 18, and I worry about the future of this country because of that. And I don't have the answers for like how we break out of that. Um, but I mean, I'm the furthest thing from a conspiracy theorist, but when I look at like Vladimir Putin, what he's been able to accomplish. Like, my mind goes to like the Americans, like deep, you know, moles have been in the US government, you know, for years propelling this agenda. You know, both if I think about like kind of the greatest enemies of my lifetime, would be Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Vladimir Putin, actors in Iran, and like the— but particularly like Putin and Osama bin Laden. If they had a wish list, it would be to divide Americans, to make Americans stop believing in their institutions.

Right.

That is mission accomplished. That's done.

Sadly is. I mean, if you look at on, on X, yeah, it's something like 80% of the accounts are bot accounts.

Yeah.

And if you, if you actually spend time scrolling and using and getting the algorithm and feeding the algorithm, you just get hit with more and more things that make you feel divisive. Yeah. Make you feel like the other side is stupid. There's two sides.

Yeah.

Or, or if you're on that side, it's the other side's assholes.

Yeah.

And it just gets stronger and stronger.

Yeah. And I don't know, I really don't know where it ends. I mean, I've said this before, I'm not a I'm not a super religious person, but like if God were to come down in front of me like right now and be like, you know what, I'm gonna take the internet away. Like that didn't really work out. I'd be like, all right.

It's probably a good idea.

I'll go back to using my atlas in the car, you know? And like, because I think about all the ways in which the internet Internet saves me time and has enabled— not me, it's not about me, but like has enabled interconnectivity. I think it's hard to say like what the— where the balance is, the good and the bad. And certainly social media, social media specifically. Yeah, it's toxic. And I'm a social media addict. You know, I'm always mouthing off on social media.

And, uh, I removed it from my phone.

That's a good idea.

Probably 6 months ago. Yeah, I don't have Instagram, I don't have YouTube, I don't have Twitter, I don't have TikTok. I don't even see what gets posted. Yeah, from this podcast. I know it's really good stuff and I'm really happy with it, but it just gives me the, the presence with my family. It allows me to enjoy my life. Yeah, it doesn't take my attention and make me angry about something that's completely out of my realm of control or anything that— you know, another thing that happens with with this media that I think is a huge virus to society is there's a lot of these things get portrayed that make it like society is too hard to live in. You know, when, when they're perpetuating and, and putting out like groceries are too expensive or gas is too expensive or, you know, we got to wait for the politics to change for people to be able to live. It's like the people that are on the verge of like giving up or being a victim and saying, hey, it's not my fault. Yeah, they take that plunge and they say I can't do it anymore. Yeah, but in reality, we all have the power to do anything we want in life if we take radical accountability. Yeah, and the media takes that accountability away from society. Yeah, at large. I think that's the biggest virus within our society right now.

And I think like the, the ways in which, um, not just social media but like the internet, like, have made it so that we don't connect like Like even this, you and I are sitting down across from each other. I never do this anymore.

Yeah.

Every meeting I ever have is like on Zoom. Like maybe there's a camera, but maybe not.

Yeah.

And, you know, I had this experience the other day where like I was taking my dog to— have you ever heard of this thing called Sniff Spots?

No.

So I've got one dog. Who's like kind of reactive with other dogs. I can't take her to the dog park.

Yeah.

So I discovered this thing called Sniff Spots where people rent out their backyard or they rent out their—

Oh, that's cool. Interesting idea.

Yeah, it's great. And I joined and so like I can take her there, she can run around, I can take both my dogs. She gets along with my dog, you know, take her there, work on some training, whatever. She's got a lot of space to run in, but I don't have to worry about her, you know, nipping someone at the dog park, which she has done. Yeah. So anyway, I drove up to this like great sniff spot, new sniff spot, and like the woman had, you know, all these signs like MAGA, don't tread on me, whatever. And I was like, oh my God, like, I don't even want to give this woman my business. Like, I just was in such a foul humor walking up to the sniff spot.

Yeah.

And I'd written her a message beforehand saying like, hey, I'm meant to pay for 2 dogs and I only paid for 1. I'm going to keep my Jack Russell weenie dog in the car, but I can like pay you more next if it's okay. I can bring them out. I'll pay you more next time. So she comes out of her house and she starts talking. She's like, hi. She's like, it's fine if you bring your dog out. Just write the app, whatever. She starts talking delightful conversation. Like we're talking about dogs and dog training. And I'm like, this woman's great.

Yeah.

Like, I'd love to like hang out with her. And it was kind of like a wake-up call to myself. Because I think that on both sides there, we have both sides of everything, whether it be US politics, you know, Israel, Gaza, like there is a dehumanization that has happened on such a mass and epic scale.

Yeah. Yeah, we miss that, that love and the connection that we have, because once you feel that with someone, you no longer want to fight with them. Yeah, but you can't really feel that with someone through the internet. Yeah, actually, you really can't at all.

Yeah. And, you know, I, um, like, it'll be interesting to see, you know, sort of what happens with US intelligence, you know, under the Trump administration. Um, some things I'm deeply concerned about, and other things that I'm like, yeah, I'm down with that. You know, that, that makes sense. So I'm trying to like, um, I'm trying myself not to be as knee-jerk about new policies. Like, I'm trying. Like, yeah, yeah.

It's funny if you— so like most people consume their views based on the media that they're served, and it's either a news station that has their own views or social media that knows your views and amplifies them. What I've been trying to do is actually watch the event, like, like last night's congressional speech. Yeah, like I watched the whole thing. Yeah, and then I'm like, alright, I watched it, I have my own opinion, right? Now let me go look at what the news says, right? And I'm like, I disagree with this news, I agree with that news. And it's— but it's not what you watched. You could take anything and paint another picture of it and then serve that picture and then change someone's opinions. Yeah, I would encourage people to actually spend more time watching the person and the event and forming your own views rather than consuming external media and letting it form your views.

I think that's the worst problem. Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. And like, I try to do that sometimes too, like watch it on C-SPAN or, you know, something where there's not going to be any commentary.

Yeah.

And I just, you know, I've lost patience with mainstream media of all flavors. Like, why do I want to watch people sit and yell at each other? That is not like interesting to me.

Well, I'll tell you why people do that is because they're not comfortable with themselves. They need something to feed them dopamine. They need something to pay attention to because they're uncomfortable being. Yeah, it's like that's where that connection comes back.

I don't— I just like, I don't get it. I think we're, you know, provided like the country doesn't implode or dissolve into civil war, I do think we are like ripe for a kind of media revolution right now. And, you know, stuff like your podcast, like, not like a lot of people, a lot of people I think on both sides are very sick of mainstream media and looking for other reliable outlets where it's not just people screaming at each other.

I know that I am, you know, it's just, it's hard because the incentive of media is to make money.

Yeah.

Make money by feeding people what they want to watch.

Yeah. Well, and social media too. Like, yeah, that those, algorithms, you know, that they're designed to maximize engagement.

Yeah.

And people engage more when they're like fired up or pissed off.

They make a dollar based on how much time you're spending.

Yeah.

And you spend more time when you see things that either incite you or rally you.

Yeah, I do. I do try to like change up my, my palette of social media. And so sometimes I will spend— and one could call this— I was thinking like, is this a waste of my time because clearly it is. But then I was like, this makes me happy. Like, I watch a lot of like dachshund videos and like, they just make me happy.

Yeah.

And I can spend like an hour on the StairMaster, like working out and like watching dachshund videos. And I get off and I'm like, not pissed off. Yeah.

The problem is it's such a slippery slope. Yeah. You know, like sometimes I would open up YouTube to go watch something informative and then a short would pop up. I'd click on it. That's interesting. And next thing you know, I'm like, 10 minutes into it, it sucked my attention in, and now I'm tired and I'm drained and I gotta like get back. And it was just a very like vicious cycle.

Yeah, I have a lot of admiration. My older son, he's 20, he just turned 20, and he doesn't do social media. Really? He doesn't post, he doesn't, you know, he's just— and he is the most zen dude ever. Yeah, like just nothing gets to him. Like even after like You know, after the election, like, my head was popping off. My younger son's head was popping off. You know, I was like so upset. And then my, my, my older son called me and he's like, yeah, I kind of thought of something that was really positive about the election results. And I was like, I had to get off. And I was like, I got to go right now, but let me call you back because I really want to hear this. Yeah. So I call him back and I'm like, so what was it? You know, you were saying there was some like silver lining, something that you were You know, it was really positive. And he's like, yeah, like, you know, more than half the country is just really happy. And I was like, that's it?

And he's like, he's like, isn't it a great perspective?

Yeah. He's like, isn't it cool that, you know, people are happy?

I'm like, no, no, they're stupid.

Yeah. So I mean, I really admire him because, you know, he grew up like, you know, in, you know, your generation, like you guys have grown up with social media and the internet. And so to be someone who just doesn't partake of it at all, has no interest. And he's just really— he used to work at Starbucks. He was a barista. That was like his first job, which I thought was going to be disastrous because he's also like a super slow-moving dude. I'm like, when those orders start racking up, like, yeah. But he had a guy come into him and say one day, like, I went home and I told my wife I met the happiest guy alive and it's you.

And yeah.

I'm just like, I want to be reincarnated as, you know, have that level of zen.

Yeah. I'm curious. So you're, you're more on the left side. I'm more on the right side. Did you actually like Joe Biden?

No.

Okay. Oh, I don't know anyone that actually liked him.

No, I don't know anyone. Yeah. And I do get tired of like some of my more right-leaning friends are like, you guys were defending Joe Biden. I was, I never wanted Joe. I was, I was horrified when Joe Biden was the candidate, you know, to initially run against Trump. I was like, are you kidding me?

And on that notion, though, like, if you don't believe the deep state is real, you believe that that guy was actually doing things and in charge and making decisions?

No, no. And I didn't know. I mean, I was horrified. You know, the debate, the disastrous debate.

Yeah.

I mean, I was painful. It was painful. I mean, there were— I got to say, like, there were a few times because, like, no one could be— no one could have more disdain for Trump than I do. But, like, there were a few times during the debate where I was just like, the point where, like, Trump, like, looks at him, like, and says, like, I don't think that guy knows what he's talking about.

I felt bad.

I'm like, okay, we are all Donald Trump right now because I'm feeling the same thing. So, no, I never liked Biden. Did I think he was dangerous for the country? No. I mean, I thought he was an ineffective leader. I thought he was— senile. I thought he should have stepped down way before the disastrous debate. You know, I'm not a big rah-rah, but I think that the Democratic Party has— for— and I've been registered everything. I've been registered Republican, I've been registered Independent, you know, Democrat. I tend to vote on the issues, and character is important to me. Like, I, you know, it's— policies are important to me, Certain policies are more important than others. I'm never going to be a one-issue voter. Yeah, but character has always been important to me. But what was my point about Joe Biden?

He couldn't have been running the country himself.

No, but the president is never running the country himself. I mean, do I think that like that's the thing is like I didn't like Joe Biden. I thought, you know, the debate was horrifying. I think that he definitely, like, I have to say, and I'm going to say something that's kind of sexist, but like across the board in today's politics, I have a lot more respect. It has been the women who have the balls, like whether it be Nancy Pelosi, like Liz Cheney, you know, whatever. It to me has been like the women who, like, stand up for their principles, for their constituents, who speak out. And I will say that, like, as a woman, it is deeply frustrating to me the way that I do think, like, women's rights have been rolled back. We, you know, we have, like, I mean, I have family members back for generations who have served. My brother is a naval aviator. So like having, you know, someone like Pete Hegseth at the head of the Defense Department is deeply disturbing to me. So, you know, that's where I like lie left. But like at this point, I'm kind of like Biden's out of here.

Yeah.

So shut up about Biden and shut up about Hunter Biden and Hillary Clinton. They're not there. Right. And so I get extremely frustrated like with the, like, on the right, and particularly Trump, like, you know, this is all because of Joe. I'm sick of hearing Trump talk about how stupid Joe Biden is. Like, it's not, it's, it's not relevant to me, you know. It's not interesting.

It rallies people up, I think, but it's not the point.

Yeah.

I am curious though, like, as someone who doesn't like Trump, what did you feel like? I feel like every American had some sense of like, okay, that was cool when he was fist pumping with the blood dripping down his face.

No, my mind was like immediately went to like conspiracy theories.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah.

As a non-conspiracy theorist?

As a non-conspiracy theorist. I will give you, because I don't want to argue about why I don't like Trump. I don't like him because I don't think he's a good person. And I don't think he cares about America. I don't think he cares about— I am a patriot. I come from a very patriotic family, and I do not believe he cares about America or ordinary Americans. This is what I will give him. He has an uncanny, instinctual political brilliance that is really unparalleled.

Yeah.

And, and special. You know, he has a charisma. People love him.

Yeah. Like, I think he stole the heart of, like, most Americans. In that moment?

I think a lot of things happen. I think, you know, Bernie Sanders is right. Like, the Democratic Party has, you know, forsake— they forsook the working class. I think that's true. You know, I think the working class are— did over years get sick of like the liberal elite and, you know, being talked down to, being called stupid or whatever. Like, I get that. And I think Trump has brilliantly, and I think it's very instinctual. Like, it's not an intellectual thing. It's like an instinctual— he has a charisma. It doesn't appeal to me. Yeah, but like, it appeals to a lot of people. He was elected president again, you know, so you can't deny that. You know, I don't think like someone like J.D. Vance, he doesn't have that. Like, you know, like just his whole aura causes vaginal dryness, you know, like, but Trump has like a certain, he has, I call it a brilliance because I do think it's a brilliance.

Yeah, I don't know how old is he, like 73 or something like that? He's just going and going and going.

Yeah, and you know, it's funny because someone said that Trump said the other day, like, he Someone said, you know, why did you call Zelensky a dictator? And he was like, did I call him that? I don't remember that. And so one of my friends was like, he's senile. He doesn't remember. He's not senile. He knows exactly what he said. That's exactly the kind of brilliance that he has. Like, did I call him a dictator? Like, I don't remember that.

He's good at like saying what needs to be said.

He's malleable. You know, he's like, I mean, You know, friends on the right who are very, you know, pro-Israel and I feel like who have supported, voted for Trump on a one-issue thing. You can do that. If Trump— this may never happen. If Trump thought he could be empowered or enriched by aligning himself with Hamas, he'd do it in a New York second. Not a doubt in my mind.

Yeah, I think you and I have disagreements on that. I, you know, anyway, it's okay to have disagreements and it's fine. That's fine. The country is where it is.

Yeah.

There's probably going to be a lot of things that are broken in the next, like, few months before we could fix them.

Yeah.

I mean, anyway, that's a rabbit hole we can keep going down endlessly and endlessly.

But I mean, I will— this is the last thing I will say about politics. The missteps in this last month and a half with regard to intelligence could have catastrophic effects. The, you know, divulging of names of CIA officers, like the complete lack of understanding about how intelligence works from the highest levels. Kash Patel at the FBI, Tulsi Gabbard at DNI, that cabinet, that's straight out of Putin's playbook, 100%.

I don't know enough about that to comment on it. You know a lot more about intelligence than me.

Well, just take it from me.

OK. What are your thoughts on the JFK files being released?

Released. Are they already released?

Yeah.

Yeah. I haven't looked at them, so I don't know if there's any—

There was something released and then I think there was something held back, but they're pushing to release it.

Okay. I'm all for having those files released. I don't see any problem in it. I will be very curious to like, yeah, to see what it reveals.

You know, what's your high-level opinion on Elon Musk?

The second greatest cause of vaginal dryness, if I'm being honest. Don't like him. Don't like him. He wasn't— he wasn't elected. I think he's like, I don't like some, like, douchebag in a MAGA hat being like, yeah, we're going to break some things, but then we'll go back and fix it. Like, and look, there's a lot of government waste. Absolutely. 100%. I am all for eliminating government waste. I am all for eliminating.

But it wasn't being eliminated. No, but it's being built up.

Yeah, but there could be a way to eliminate it that doesn't fire veterans, that doesn't fire intelligence officers who are greatly needed, that doesn't fire the people who very specialists in who know our nuclear capabilities. They fired a bunch of people from the Department of Energy not realizing you can't go down to the corner at 7-Eleven and pick up someone who has that kind of knowledge.

Well, my take on it is like, when you're doing a huge thing, you're going to make some errors in the process. But if you never do the huge thing, it's just going to keep getting bigger and getting worse. And it's like there's no better entrepreneur in history of the world to come in and actually make business changes for the country. Like, yeah, you're going to break some things in the process.

I disagree. I think I know enough people. I live in the Washington area.

Yeah.

So I know enough people and people who have served our country honorably who have been suddenly discharged, people who work at the Veterans Administration.

I'm sure certain people have gotten hurt by it. I'm not denying that.

But that's not okay. You can, yes, eliminate government waste, but do it smartly and do it in a way that's respectful. Like Elon Musk dancing around with a fucking chainsaw and denigrating civil servants. You know, everybody in my family going back generations has served in the US military or has served in, you know, served our country in some way, shape, or form. We're smart people. I could take my intellect and talent anywhere else and make a lot of money. We chose to be civil servants or to serve in the military because we believe in our country and we want to serve our country.

But don't the vast majority of U.S. military officers support Trump and what's, you know, that whole side of things?

I don't know if that will continue to happen, you know, with with people losing their jobs. Yeah. You know, I—

I would imagine you feel the shockwave a lot more than someone like myself, being in the Washington area, being in those circles, knowing individuals. I don't know any of those individuals.

Yeah. Well, I mean, and, you know, Trump has, like, denigrated high-level generals, you know, called them stupid. Like, there's just no— that's not— those are not the characteristics of a leader. So Elon Musk, like, okay, you know, maybe the greatest entrepreneur of— I don't know. That's a world that you probably know more about.

The numbers don't lie. He's the greatest entrepreneur in history.

Than I do. But I do have a problem with him having access to information he shouldn't have access to. And I do have a problem with the idea that like, oh, just break everything and, you know, destroy people's lives. And then if I need them to come back, I'll call them to come back. Yeah, I know someone who worked at the Department of Energy at a high level and she's not going back. Yeah, like she was fired. Now they're begging her to come back. She's not going back. She's pissed off. The other thing that I will say, and this is something I do have expertise on, you treat people in the intelligence community and the FBI with that level of disrespect from someone who is not elected. That is a counterintelligence nightmare. They were trying to rehire people that they fired from the Department of Energy or fired from the FBI. I had people I knew from the FBI escorted out of the building. These are people who worked at the FBI for 25 years, but because they— one guy had arrested the leader of the Proud Boys, escorted out of the building. These are people who are largely Republicans who probably voted for Trump, who have served their country. So you fire all those people, tell them that they're pieces of shit. You know who's going to be interested in those people? Russian intelligence officers, Chinese intelligence officers, because all of a sudden you have a workforce of disgruntled people who have access to very valuable information.

Yeah.

And they're going to have a vendetta. It's stupid.

I can see that. I can also see, though, over the last 50, 70 years, our country getting overinflated with people who aren't really fit to run these large organizations, wasting money, passing bills, probably lots of corruption. When you clean all that out, it's going to cause those negative things. And it's like eventually you got to clean it out.

I agree. I agree with cleaning it out. I don't like the way it's being done and I don't like the person doing it.

Like, I just don't know if there's anyone better to do it. Like someone who— anyway, I think we disagree on this part.

Yeah.

My only point is the guy has, you know, built the biggest company in the world at one point. Several of the next biggest companies in the world are being built right now. The AI companies. He's done a tremendous amount of things. He has a knack for business. And I think there needs to be more business-mindedness in government. I wouldn't argue with that because our country is in a tremendous amount of debt and it's just It's a never-ending cycle until it would explode. A lot of people don't have the balls to go in and actually do these things. Now, I'm sure it could be done better. I don't think I could do it. I don't know enough. I would never say I could do it better. But the things that are being done, I think, eventually had to have been done. And I think there's going to be— it's like going to war. There's going to be a lot of devastation and negative stuff, but it has to happen sometimes.

Right. I don't disagree with that. I am not—

That's why I started by saying, like, we're going to be breaking some things, before we fix them. That's what it feels like to me.

And I agree. And I think that there is going to be pain when you dismantle, whether it be, you know, useless or inefficient or, you know, ineffective entities, or you take money away from things that are stupid or not, you know, not priorities to Americans. I get that. Like, you know, a lot of Americans don't care about foreign aid. That's a fact. You know, that's a fact. There is a utility to soft power. I've seen it in intelligence. I can't recruit. I, as a CIA officer, cannot recruit anyone if people hate America. Why would I come work for America? Fuck you guys. So there's that issue. I don't disagree that the debt has to be reduced. I don't disagree that there has to be more efficiency. And I don't necessarily disagree that there has to be more business acumen applied to the US government. But, you know, as I said, character is important to me. I don't like seeing some billionaire jackass denigrate members of the military, members of the civil service, and ordinary Americans and scoff at them and make fun of them. Like, take all the policy aside, just the optics of it. It's just douchey.

Yeah, I see. Like, I don't see those optics. I don't get hit with those optics. I never— I would never feel like, oh, that's what that guy's doing. From the media I consume, at least.

Yeah. But you're also, you know, you're not working. You're not someone who was working for the government, right? Who was told, like, just go do something else, you know?

Yeah, exactly. I'm not in your circle. I'm not in that realm. I see from a high level. I'm like, you know, we're paying Social Security checks to people that are over 100. I don't know if you saw the speech last night, but it was like there was like over 100,000 people that were between the ages of like— and these numbers could be a little bit off, between the ages of 100 and 119, and there was like 50,000 people between the age of 119 to 129. It went all the way up to age 360. Okay.

I would encourage you, in addition to, as you said you do, you watch it, you know, free of, of outside commentary.

Yeah.

Do that. And then also do your own independent fact-checking on anything that is said. And I mean this across the board, whether it be from Donald Trump or, you know, from a Democrat, like fact check.

Yeah, that one, if there's a fact on that, that that's wrong, I'd love to know it.

Okay.

But if that is right, it's like, it's just so silly.

Yeah, I have not watched the speech last night, but you've inspired me to look at the Social Security thing, particularly so I can do my own fact check.

Look at the Social Security part of it.

Yeah.

And let me know if you find something wrong with it.

Okay.

But it is so preposterous.

Okay.

They're like— the data was showing that there's people in their late hundreds that are still getting checks, like hundreds of thousands of them. And then people that are like over 200 years old still— obviously the money's going somewhere. Just, I mean, look at it. Maybe, maybe it's incorrect. I just know based on what I saw yesterday.

Okay.

I'm not trying to skew anyone listening to like say, oh, this is 100% fact. I just saw what I saw yesterday and I was like, oh my God, it's like, that's so ridiculous.

I mean, yes, I agree with you. If that's the case, that kind of thing needs to be stopped?

Yeah, I think we're going to go through a bit of discomfort in different areas of the country. I do feel like there's kind of a glimmer of hope. I think there's a, you know, people want the same thing. People want media that's free of bias. People want the country to be in a better economic position than it is. People want peace. You know, when you change power, it's, it's, it just gets messy.

Yeah, I, well, I do think, I think largely people do want the same thing. I agree with that. But, and I think, you know, at a base level, like, people want, you know, what they need to survive. They wanna be able to, like, make a living wage for their families and live, which of course is understandable. And, like, I'm, you know, privileged enough that, you know, knock on wood, I'll always be able to do that. But I also want, I want, the ideals of this country to survive, whether it be freedom of speech, you know, civil liberties. Like, I want all of that to survive. I don't want the president to say, you know, you can't say that. I don't want the press, you know, that doesn't agree with the president kicked out of the— like, I have always thought truly that, like, it's always been a good thing in this country that the pendulum tends to swing.

Yeah.

And when we've had presidents that I didn't agree with their policies or whatever, I was like, whatever, it's not my time. I can exercise, you know, my right to vote. That's the kind of thing that I just hope survives. You know, I hope that free and fair elections, peaceful transfer of power.

Yeah.

All of that has to survive. Otherwise, yeah, then we're gone.

100%. Yeah, 100%. I think there's a lot of stigmas in society that are, you know, hurtful and offensive to people that are being touched upon right now.

Yeah.

A lot of which I agree with that other people don't agree with, you know, again, things are going to break, things are going to get fixed, but I do think we're on a good trajectory right now.

Yeah. I mean, it's, uh, it's as, as we, we talked about before, like, and this kind of goes back to the world of like intelligence. It makes me realize, and I'm not steeped in studying warfare, but the divide and conquer as a basic strategy is so brilliant.

Yeah.

And I mean, one thing that's really upsetting to me, aside from the division in the country, but I'm Jewish. When I was a little girl, I was terrified of the KKK. I was sure that they were gonna come to— my mom's Jewish and my dad's Catholic and my last name isn't Jewish, but I was always like, they're gonna figure out that I'm Jewish, they're gonna come, they're gonna kill me. I was obsessed with the Holocaust and Anne Frank. And one thing about this current era that I think is so upsetting to me is that there's a real division between American Jews on the right and the left. You know, I see it.

I'm Jewish too.

Yeah. Yeah. I see it with my relatives. I see it with my friends, you know, and it frightens me because my whole life I've— and I think a lot of Jews think this way— I've always had like how I've assessed people is like, would they hide me in the attic? Right. That's how I like, you know, would that person hide me in the attic? And I've gotten to, you know, a point in my life. I'm 55 right now and I'm like, I have a very short list of people I think really who would—

I don't get that at all.

Yeah.

Now, and not in my life at least.

Yeah, I don't. But I think and my, my point is like there are some— I've had such rancorous discussions with some Jewish friends that I'm like, wow, they wouldn't hide me in the attic.

Because of the division.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I might not be true. I mean, I could be cynical, but like, I think, you know, I mean, you get it. Like, as a Jew, that's— you're always thinking, you know. And we're, you know, we all— I'm sure you did too, but, you know, like, grew up with "Never again" being a mantra. And I'm like, oh God, like, I feel like— to go back to Elon Musk, I'm not down with Elon Musk, like, supporting the far-right party in Germany. That's not— no, I'm not. I'm not cool with that.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Elon Musk went over to Germany and like openly appeared with the far right. These are the— this is the descendant of the Nazi Party, like, and openly like advocated for them. And then he gave a speech at the Munich Security Conference and said that the problem with Europe is that they are curtailing the speech of groups like the German far-right party. This is the Nazi Party. There's no two ways about it. So, like, point being, you know, Jews are always the scapegoat. And I feel like the one thing that we have always had is that tribalism, whatever, solidarity with other Jews, you know, like my mom, my Jewish mom's in memory care right now, so she doesn't make a lot of sense. When she talks, but I went to visit her the other day and she just kind of like out of nowhere was like, she's Jewish. I don't know who she was talking about, but it just made me laugh because it's like my whole life.

Yeah.

If there was someone we were talking about, my mom would be like, you know, yeah, he's Jewish. And then my grandmother, my Jewish grandmother, I mean, like with Son of Sam. Do you know the serial killer?

Yeah.

Sam Berkowitz.

Yeah.

My grandmother was like, I think he was adopted, you know, Monica Lewinsky too. She was like, oh, I don't think she's really Jewish. But anyway, so I have like two layers of anxiety operating right now. One is the division of— the deep division in the United States, which makes me very nervous. And the other is the deep division of Jews in the United States.

Yeah. I honestly think all of our realities are based on the inputs and the experiences we have.

Yeah.

And so like, I've been kind of living in my own bubble. Like, you know, not consuming a lot, not spending, not talking about this stuff too much. You're in the Washington area, you know a lot of people, you probably, you probably feel a lot of things that I don't feel.

Well, I'm also like an insane news junkie. Like, you know, like I'm living and breathing and I'm, it's almost like an addiction. Like I'm trying to—

Oh, it is an addiction.

Yeah.

100%. I was, I've been there, been there. I had just recently freed myself of it.

Like even with my phone over there, I'm kind of like this.

Let me check what's going on in the world right now.

Um, But, you know, I mean, I have to say, Jared, like, it's— I feel like it's good for me to even take, take this time to sit down with you because I don't sit and talk to a lot of people who are on the— like a lot of my friends who are on the right. There are some where it's just like we've agreed not to talk politics and we don't, you know, we stick to that. And I still have them as friends. Yeah. But that's not going to get us anywhere either if we're both just consuming our own—

problem though of talking, the sticking points, because like my father-in-law, he's like far on the left and we always talk, the sticking points are when, when someone states a fact that like if you agreed with that fact, you're all— you're inherently bad.

Yeah.

And it's like, well, I don't know if I believe that fact. And it's like, now you're arguing over is that a fact or not.

Yeah.

And that happens a lot in these kind of conversations.

Yeah.

Like there was a, a fact that like you know, Trump's personnel like pushed, shoved someone at this Arlington Cemetery. Yeah. And he said that to me and I'm like, well, if that was true, obviously that would be bad. I'm like, did they really shove the person or was it more of like a move them aside? And then it's like, well, what are we arguing about now? Because we don't know what's true. We weren't there. We just know what we heard.

Yeah.

So my whole thing is like, we don't really know what's true unless we're there. It doesn't really serve us to get deeply connected to all these things and put our energy into it. If we can just enjoy our lives and the people around us and harness more love, yeah, it breaks that vicious cycle of divisiveness.

Yeah, I mean, I think if, if, if you can operate under the basic premise of like do no harm and whatever that means, and you know, for me do no harm could be like not picking a fight with my, you know, right-wing friend on social media or whatever and you know, like devising ways to humiliate and denigrate him.

I don't think that's certain. Yeah, like everyone's doing that. Yeah, it's not working. It's just causing more divisiveness. Yeah, that's why I'm like, you know, I'm out. I'm out of it.

Well, I actually like— there were so— some people who were just so toxic and kind of like, I'll call it like low-key Nazi trolling my feed, that I just like blocked them. Yeah, but then I have other friends who are taking screens—

they know that I've blocked this other person, they still get them, and so then they take a screenshot and send it to me.

I'm like, I blocked them. I don't have to see it. Like—

There's almost no escaping it.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, like, I— you're, you know, I mean, you're older than my kids, obviously, but you're, you know, probably closer in age to them than you are to me. Like, I do derive a lot of hope from talking to young people because, you know, I think your minds work in different ways. You were raised in different ways. You were raised you know, with technology that just wasn't around when I was there or when I was being raised. And so sometimes what helps, like, quell my own panic or anxiety is talking to my kids, you know, one who's— doesn't have a lot of strong political beliefs, one who does, and realizing, like, yeah, they're just kind of okay. Yeah, like, whatever I'm ranting about, Yeah, like even my son who's politically aligned with me, when I'm ranting, he's like, give it a rest, you know?

Well, the reason you feel that way is because our realities are just simply based on our perceptions and the things we focus on.

Yeah.

So when you focus on your kids, it makes you feel that way.

Yeah.

When you focus on the news, the media, the thing, it makes you feel a different way.

Yeah.

So it's like if you just choose to focus less on that, changes who you are. I think at large, that's what society needs to really do. We need to stop being so attached to Yeah, that's my answer.

Well, you also— I will say this in my own defense, but you have the benefit of having— you're about to have like another— yeah, little one.

Yeah, care a lot more about that than everything else.

Yeah, like when I did some soul-searching the other day about like when was the time in my life when I was really happiest, you know, and I've done a lot of cool shit in my life, and the happiest times are of my life were when I had a newborn, whether it was my first son or my second born. Because all of a sudden, like, your one, um, responsibility is to keep, keep them alive. You know, it's like, I got one thing to do, I just got to keep this kid alive. And that's— you don't have time to think about anything else.

I love that you just said that because there's so many times when I'm like tired or annoyed and I'm like, I know when I'm older I'm going to— I would do anything to go back to this moment. I try to remind myself that regularly.

You will. Yeah. And it gets annoying because when I was your age, or, and, you know, I had little kids, like, and people were like, eh, this time it's going to pass so quickly, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh, the years are like days and the days are like years, whatever. I was always like, shut up.

No, I try to embrace that because I'm like, it's— I've seen life go by quickly already.

It, it—

like, my little guy's almost 2. It feels like he was just born.

And that's—

and that's going to go by so much quicker.

It, it goes by so fast. But I mean, you'll see, like, not to segue into parenting advice, but like, if I could give advice to my younger parenting self, a few things like everything's a stage.

Yeah.

So like whether they're, you know, 2 or 12, like whatever sort of horror is causing you anxiety in their behavior, whatever, it's going to pass. It's a stage. Yeah. Like, don't sweat it. And then the— I mean, I was a pretty hands-off, the opposite of a helicopter mom. I was like a submarine mom, like under the surface, and if I'm needed, I'll like pop up. But like, did not obsess at all about like my kids' grades, what they were doing, whatever. And it's been really, really fun to just watch them grow into their own people with passions that are different from mine, sometimes politics that are different from mine, you know, like, um, it's just, yeah, you've got many years of fun ahead of you.

I know, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm also nervous for the birth, as we were talking about before the show. That's the one thing I'm like, all right, it's gonna happen, I gotta get ready for it.

Well, yeah, I mean, again, like, to say another sexist thing, like, if men had to give birth, like, the whole human race would die out.

Done.

Yeah, done. Totally done.

I would not be able to do it.

So kudos to another—

Thank you to the women.

Yeah.

Well, this was a great conversation.

Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

Love the, uh, very interesting life you've had. Very like cool to like learn all the inner workings of the things you've done. Also cool to diverge into our differences in the way we see things.

No, I really enjoyed that. I like— I'd I hardly ever do that.

And like, because I'm being recorded, I'm like, you know, I literally was like, I'm not gonna talk politics on this podcast. I'm not gonna talk about it.

It's impossible.

It's just, it's just like a weird— and then, and then next thing you know, you're in there.

Yeah. And we're living in a— we're living through a time where it's kind of impossible not to talk politics. But, you know, I think I'm kind of of the mindset like you. I mean, I just I'll say one more thing. Like, this whole transition period, which has had me really anxious, I finally— I was walking down the beach the other day and with one of my dogs, and this man stopped and he admired my dog and we started talking. And it turns out he's this veteran former Washington Post reporter, investigative reporter, like, been nominated for a Pulitzer 5 times, won 2 Pulitzers with the Washington Post. And we started talking about, you know, what's going on in the country and everything. And he's deeply upset about it. I walked on and I just started to cry. Like, I just was so, you know, I really started to just let— by myself, crying on the beach like a crazy person. But I'm a silver lining person, and I try to find like a silver lining from any situation. And like, right now, I don't like what's happening in the country. And I think that I had to get to a point where I realized, like, the America that I grew up in and that I loved died. And I need to take some time to grieve that.

Mm-hmm.

And then I need to do what I want to do, or what I feel I have to do, to build a better America, right? Maybe, maybe the America that I knew was— has died, but maybe something better will come of this.

Yeah.

And so just sort of accepting— I haven't had like any death in my life that's been like a real monumental loss. So I will say that like right now I do kind of feel like I'm grieving something that has died, but taking the time to acknowledge that and to be like, okay, that died, and now the rest of your life is going to be a little bit different. And one last thing, and then I promise I'll shut up, is, you know, I moved to Bulgaria when I was 24. This was actually before I joined the CIA. And Bulgaria had been under totalitarian regime for 50 years, and they had just deposed Todor Zhivkov, who was the communist dictator. And I grew up in the Cold War, and very clear delineations, at least in my mind, between good and evil. US was good, the Soviet bloc was evil. And then when I went to Bulgaria, I found this country that was depressed. It was just coming out of totalitarian regime, economically horrible, organized crime bad, just kind of bad. And the people I met there were so bright and so funny. And so much like me. And so I've always considered it like such a privilege and, and so lucky that I was born and raised in America. And I'm like, all right, well, it's a different America, but like, I'm still a smart, funny person. I still have good friends. Like, I can make something of this. It's just not— it's not the country I grew up in.

Yeah, it's, it's unfamiliar.

Yeah.

And I mean, if you look back in history in large chunks, there's so many changes, but they get summarized into just sentences or words or books or whatever it is into just little compact bite-sized things that, that kind of summarize these large times.

Yeah.

It's like if something's not growing, it's dying. And when it's growing, sometimes it feels like changes are bad because they're uncomfortable.

Yeah.

But you're still you. You're still smart, funny, exciting, and That's all there is. I mean, we—

maybe next time we talk, we will have this, like, efficient government that runs like a well-oiled machine.

I would—

I would bet on it.

Yeah, you're betting against it. We'll throw some money in the pot. We'll see.

I know I have thought, like, I should put my money where my mouth is and, like, make a bet on something.

Yeah, they have those. What's that app called? There's a Polymarket. Kelsey. Yeah, you can bet on—

what is that?

It's like you can bet on the news and you can bet on like politics.

Really? Yeah, I would make bank. I am not kidding. Everything that I have predicted has happened.

We're not sponsored by Kelshee. If you want to be a sponsor, Kelshee. That's what I say, right? K-A-L-S-H-I-E. Kelshee. Yeah, bet on the news.

I'm gonna take my retirement money that I'm worried will disappear. I'm putting it all into Kelshee. Right after this show.

She's going to become a multi-multi-billionaire based on this.

Yes.

Worth coming out here.

Totally worth it.

A lot of fun. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.