Let's Get Real About Marketing in 2024 with Jay Gilbert | Music Industry 360 Podcast

With me today is my good friend Jay Gilbert. Jay is a digital strategist and expert, and I'm really pleased to call him my friend because he gives me great advice, uh, on navigating this crazy business we're in, uh, in the music industry. He is the co-founder and creator of Label Logic, which is a strategy and marketing company for artists and labels. Leaning on his many, many years of major label expertise. I believe you were with all, all 4 majors at once?

3 of them?

3 of the 4? Okay, well, you can't all be perfect. Um, in addition to that, um, he hosts the weekly newsletter Your Morning Coffee, which is a must-read for music industry pundits. Um, he's also the co-host of not one, not two, but 3 podcasts: the Your Morning Coffee, Music Biz Weekly, and Behind the Setlist podcast. Everyone, please welcome Jay. Jay, I'm so pleased to have you here.

Oh, it's always a thrill to talk with you, Randall, always.

So I want to get into it. There's a lot to cover because you and I always cover a lot. Um, but before we jump into the meat and potatoes of this thing, um, I just want to give you the mic and let you tell us a little bit about Label Logic, the podcast, and how they all fit together? Sure.

Label Logic came about with my business partner Jeff Mosko. We worked together at Universal. He was vice president of marketing, I was vice president of digital. And so we, we collaborated a lot, and we found that, uh, we had a similar take on the music industry, and we enjoyed working with each other. So years later, I— let's see, he was at Universal 20 years, I was there 18. And we started Label Logic almost 10 years ago. And it's really a business built around mostly artist managers, but we have some artists where we're sort of the label infrastructure for them, and we do a lot of the things that a label typically does. And we found that it's been really enjoyable, really rewarding, and we get to work with really great people, really strong distribution partners like Symphonic. And it's been sort of growing and evolving and changing over the last 10 years as the business has changed. So that's Label Logic. Um, I love doing podcasts, I love doing education. I work with 6 different college music business programs, and that's probably the highlight of my career, is just working with young people. And, you know, they're standing on the shoulders of giants today. Um, it's a whole different, uh, industry. You know, it's gone from ownership to access, and it's just evolving and changing. And you and I like to joke that, you know, the industry has changed while we've been having this conversation, right? So I have 3 podcasts, as you mentioned. One is for DIY artists called Music Biz Weekly with Mike Brandvold. We're over a million downloads now, uh, close to 600 episodes, I think. And I'm the new guy, you know, I've been only doing it for like 500 of those episodes, so Michael was one of the early guys into podcasting, and it's really to help people understand, like, what is sync licensing? You know, what is publishing? What is the Mechanical Licensing Collective? You know, just sort of an education thing. We'll have guests come on and explain things. And then I have, for more of a curated look at the music industry every week, counterpart to my weekly newsletter, you mentioned Your Morning Coffee. So the podcast, Mike Etchart and I, we sort of break down 3 or 4 stories that we think are important every week. And we have really smart people on to sort of explain, you know, what those things mean, whether it's music industry attorneys, you know, or people like you, just to sort of explain what's going on in the industry. And then the last one, which is just a blast, is with Billboard magazine with Glenn Peoples. We do a podcast called Behind the Setlist where we talk to artists about the songs they perform live.. And it might surprise you that, you know, some of these artists have never really been asked about, you know, the songs they perform live. Like, why do you open with that song? And why do you do this cover song? And what is your ebb and flow for a show? And we've had everybody from Shania Twain and Kurt Smith from Tears for Fears, and, you know, Les Claypool. We've had some really interesting guests on. We have Neil Finn coming up, which I'm really excited about. But those are, those are my podcasts, the newsletter, and all that other crazy stuff.

Well, behind the setlist gets you closer to the art. I know, and that's, that's the most recent of the podcasts. I remember how excited you are, you were when you launched that. Yeah. One thing I neglected to mention about Jay as well is that he is an accomplished concert photographer and, uh, and an artist photographer as well. I'm, I'm the lucky recipient of a, of a KISS photograph that that Jay sent me that's hanging above my door here in the office. And a big fan of that work. I think— I feel like you are constantly drawn back to the art here. It's so easy to get in the trenches of, you know, the data and the algorithms and things like that. But it's refreshing to see the Behind the Set List podcast, you know, the photography, the things like that. Um, I, I imagine that all comes from a pretty honest place of being a lifelong music fan. Um, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself? Where are you from? Like, how did you get into music? Because you've, you've had an incredible career, um, both at the pinnacle of, of major label, you know, employment, which is something I think a lot of us, um, put on a very high pedestal when we decide we're going to join music business, um, to going independent, to being an artist strategist, etc. How did you get into this nutty business?

Well, my family is super musical. My mom's a classically trained pianist. My grandfather played saxophone in big bands. You know, my sister was really into Motown. My brother was really into the Stones. And I was the youngest of four. I was always immersed in music, and I, I can't remember a time where the radio wasn't on and we were singing along to music. And then later, you know, I, I joined bands like in high school, and then after high school, I got a little serious about it and started touring in bands. And I learned what it was like to record a record and go to a radio station early in the morning and be on a bus or a van. And so I think I have a little bit different take than some people in the industry because I've, I've played that side of the fence, right? And so after that, You know, I've worked in record stores. I worked for Tower Records, worked for an indie record store. And, you know, back then without the internet, you were the recommendation engine. Someone would come in and say, oh, I need something that sounds like this, or I love that John Coltrane record you sold me last week. Do you have anything else? And it was just, you know, it was like the movie High Fidelity. It was just a lot of fun. And then after sort of working in, you know, record stores, I remember these reps came into Tower., and they would bring in, you know, promotional items, or they would set up sales, or, you know, they would set up advertising surrounding radio airplay. And I got to know these people. And then after a while, I interviewed for a couple of those jobs and got one, an entry-level position. And it just kind of— I tripped and fell into it, and I just loved it so much. And you mentioned something about, you know, sort of getting close to the art. I think that's one of the things that you and I definitely agree on, and we certainly pursue, and that is having those relationships and those conversations with the artists and their managers. Because it's so important now. One of the best quotes I've ever heard was from Jonathan Daniel over at Crush, and he said, if you give me a great song, my job is easy. You give me a good song, my job is impossible. And I think that's where it comes down to, is everything that you and I do, it's got to come back to the art. It's got to be a great song. It's got to be a compelling narrative, man. If you've got those sorts of things, it makes the path a little bit easier.

Oh, it certainly does. Uh, you know, a lot of, a lot of clients and non-clients, um, speak with me regularly about why aren't I succeeding at You know, we've— we as an industry have put these, these kind of false narratives of success in, in place. And, you know, the Spotify monthly listener count, things like this. And, and it's really, really interesting, um, to get into those conversations because in a lot of cases, um, it is the music, or it is— or it is a lack of marketing around each release. So yeah, or lack of single loss.

Sorry.

And You know, we were discussing before we hit record, ladies and gentlemen, about the, you know, it's no one-size-fits-all approach to artists. But the reality is basic blocking and tackling and doing things the proper way the first way, first time is, is, is a much greater likelihood of success than, than not. And so I'm sure that's, that's a daily part of your conversations with your clients and potential clients alike. I wanted to key in. You, you said a phrase that I haven't heard before that I very much like— human recommendation engine, which is very interesting because that's— that sounds to me like, like an, like an editor at a DSP today in a lot of ways. I want to talk with you about— there's a recent Bloomberg article asserting that Spotify is going to a more algorithm-forward editorial mode, meaning you can't make the phone call and get the favor anymore. Not that I don't think most folks have been able to do that in recent history anyways, but what does that mean to you? You know, when you remove the human recommendation engine from the business, you know, what does that mean for companies like you who do help propel people to be in a position to win. Um, and for, you know, in all honesty, for, for companies like Symphonic, where one of our big major market differentiators is that we pitch, that we advocate, we market, um, you know, we are looking at what that means for us because, um, obviously it's very tough to pitch to a, to a computer program. Um, luckily enough, all of the DSP editors, um, that we've had great relationships with in the past are still there remaining. Um, and so I'm just curious what, what that article says to you. I think— I believe you, you indicated you did feature that last Friday. Yeah, your morning coffee. Ladies and gentlemen, please do yourselves a favor, go and subscribe to this thing because it is literally the first thing I read every Friday morning when I wake up. Um, let's talk about that article about what the increased AI and increased algorithm engagement on playlists will mean.

Yeah, I have a contrary view to a lot of these things, and I think it comes from, number one, I think the algorithms, some of them are amazing. I love seeing what all the DSPs try to serve me up. But let's take Spotify, for example, you know, Discover Weekly, Release Radar, Radio. They do a remarkable job. For me at serving me up things that either I need to rediscover or things that I haven't discovered. And so I'm not going to put that down. I don't chase playlists. My company doesn't chase playlists. I think that's a fool's errand. I think that those things come in time with other things. And I'm learning things like, for example, My friend Will Page used to be Spotify's chief economist, and he's written a book called Pivot, which is amazing. But he has a podcast called Bubble Trouble, and I never miss it. And this last week, he and Richard Kramer were talking about this thing that he attended in Europe for some of the, you know, more of the touring side of the business. And he happened— this is Will Page— he happened to be on a panel with Coldplay's manager. And one— and I'm paraphrasing here— but one of the things that he talked about was how they're not leaning so much on the data anymore, that they're trying to have this happy balance. And I hear A&R people all the time talk about they're not chasing TikTok stars. What they're doing is they're looking for that lineup around the block to see somebody play. They're looking for college radio stations that discover something early. They're looking for people that are out on the road. And it's not necessarily all about that social footprint and those Spotify monthly listeners. And I think the, the pendulum is sort of swinging the other way now, where there's this balance between sort of human and computer. And look, Amazon years ago started kind of pushing people to, you know, this automation when it came to their business on the music side, and less about their pods and their, you know, their interaction with these teams and presentations and quarterly business reviews and things like that. And I think what Spotify is doing, look, there's so many people that are contacting them and pushing for their artists to be featured in playlists. And you can see how that's overwhelming. And of course they have their Spotify submission tool to sort of make that easier. But at the end of the day, I would like to add that it's something that my business partner and I call the epitome of hypocrisy. And we even have shirts made that say that. And what that means is they tell you to use the submission tool, they tell you that they're going to automate a lot of these things, but there are different rules for the superstars. And I know because we've had a couple of them and I've gotten calls from people that the DSP level. So when you're, you know, you're Tate McRae or Billie Eilish or something, there are different rules for you when it comes to partnering with Spotify or TikTok or YouTube than when you're a developing artist, right? So I'm not afraid of the, the AI when it comes to recommendations or helping them to curate playlists. But at the end of the day, it comes all the way back to what you and I always talk about. And that is, you know, having great music, not good music, and growing that tribe, growing that audience. That's the focus. I would rather have 1,000 fans that are nuts about my artist than a million fans that are like, meh.

Yeah, no, the 1,000 true fan principle I think is real. And to me, to me, my ultimate goal when I talk to artists most of the time is, is sustainability. It's, it's quitting your job as the bartender. It's, it's, you know, no longer having to put on a suit and tie to go to work and getting to make your living making your music. And 1,000 true fans, I, I know for a fact will do that. I'm, I'm glad to hear that you're hearing kind of underpinnings of movement away from, from the kind of social media blips, because I feel like If '22 and '23 taught us anything, it's that, you know, you can go sign that TikTok star, but you're going to have to have a team to teach them how to be an artist one at each of the day. And beyond that, you're going to have to find people who will actually buy tickets to see them live. I have a number of booking agent friends who actually send me quite a bit of business, and I have a hard and fast rule. If you've got a booking agent and you're touring and selling tickets to a show, I want to work with you. Yeah, period, end of story. I mean, it's— it is, it is a tale as long as time, you know. If people will show up and buy tickets and merch, streaming is easy. Um, if you don't have the tickets and merch or it's a fan base, like you said, it's a steep hill to climb. Oh, sure is. That's a— that's a really really good perspective you just shared with us all on that. Um, what most people don't know about you is that annually I get to look forward to reading your predictions of, of what is to come in the, in the coming year for the music industry. Um, you've done this for a couple of years. I, I've read— yeah, for years running now. Um, but, and it's an article on Hypebot, if for those of you who read that, and Jay and a number of other pundits who are all respected in their own lanes in the industry. Jay, do you want to kind of illuminate us on your predictions for 2024? What do you see coming in what we've already talked about and in lanes we've not talked about?

Sure. Yeah, and I break these up into two buckets. One is sort of a wish list. There are a few on here that I know aren't going to happen, but I want them to happen. I want to will them to happen. For example, a lot of people don't know that performers aren't paid for their songs when they're played on the radio in the United States, right? Publishing's paid, but the performers aren't. And the only country in the free world that does. Yeah, that's right. We're in company of, you know, North Korea, you know, China, Russia. It's It's not good company to be in. Exactly. And Blake Morgan, you know, is, uh, he's got this campaign, I Respect Music, that's really pushing for this to happen. And do I really think it's going to happen this year? No. But I wanted— I, I have a platform and I wanted to shine a light on it, and I hope it does. Um, but that's— that was one big one, um, that I was looking at. You know, I think there places like BandLab that for a lot of people, they're quietly taking over the world. The last thing I read was, I think at the beginning of the year, they had 60 million monthly active users. Now it's closer to 80 million. And I'm telling you, it's, it's a beast. And it's just a great place for people to go to help, you know, collaborate, you know, learn more about the business, learn more about the tools., to record, uh, and write music. So I think, I think that's going to be a big one. We've been watching just the value of the music industry. It's growing in leaps and bounds. And of course, a lot of that's driven by streaming, but you know, there are other things involved in that, like sync licensing. And even on the physical side, we saw growth in cassettes, vinyl, CD, all kind of with that Plus mark by them. So I'm seeing a lot of that. So, and then there's some things where there's misconceptions, like you read these stories about hypnosis and you think, oh my gosh, you know, that whole buying up IP, whether it's Masters or publishing, that it's in trouble. It's really not. It's not in decline. It's the growth has slowed, but there's still a lot going on there. And, you know, I don't think we've really begun as an industry to exploit that, and I mean that in the best possible way. I was speaking with someone at one of those companies that said that they had bought 18 catalogs that they hadn't touched yet, meaning they hadn't done not only reissues or, you know, sync licensing campaigns, but they didn't even do the due diligence to go and check all of the DSPs to make sure, are all these albums up? Are they— are all the tracks up? Are there any missing tracks? Are there any duplicates? Are people, you know, are there bootleg versions? So we're in the wild, wild west when it comes to a lot of these things in the industry. So we'll see if some of my predictions are, are true. But like I said, there's a few of them in there that are sort of like a wish list.

No, absolutely. And I, I think, you know, I— this— the certainty of, of of Congress finally passing a bill that would allow for, for recordings to be paid, you know, just royalties from radio, I don't think is that far off. You know, the Music Modernization Act was something everybody thought couldn't get done. That's right. And, uh, and we pulled that off as an industry. And yeah, yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Those are some pretty exciting, um, Observations. I'm, I'm actually— I've never spent any time with BandLab. I literally just made a note there, uh, to go check that out.

There's a video, I think it's on, uh, YouTube, uh, that, uh, Meng Kwok, the CEO— I've, I met him at South by, we've had a couple of conversations for the podcast, I really dig what he's doing and he's a music guy, um, but he sent me a video and it showed a guy who was being interviewed on the news and he basically put in his his headphones, his like with his iPhone, like EarPods. And he hummed a melody into it using BandLab, and it converted it into music. And it was stunning to me. And then he, he didn't necessarily have the greatest voice, but it sort of autocorrected his voice. So, you know, today they have technology that will let you, you know, sing your song in your voice, and it'll transfer it into a female voice, for example, or it'll help you, you know, to finish your song. And I think BandLab is one of those platforms that for young creators today, they're standing on the shoulders of giants.

And I think, you know, BandLab is touching on, touching on AI, which of course is the, which is the new industry acronym for the, for this year. Is it? Yeah. And we go through acronyms, don't we? Yeah. Isn't it? It's just— I'm just excited that I haven't heard NFT in a while.

Yeah, me too. That emperor didn't have any clothes on. And AI, I think, is totally different. About 8 years ago, uh, there was a book, uh, about AI in music. Um, Martin Clancy wrote it. We had him on the podcast about 5 years ago. Uh, Dmitry Vitsa and the people over at, uh, Music Tectonics had a panel on AI and music. So it's, it's been around a while. But, um, about a week ago we dropped a bonus episode, which is an interview with Bobby Osinski, and he just put out a book called The Musician's AI Handbook where he goes through all of those different tools and platforms and he uses them. And I took a 3-day sort of masterclass with him, um, about AI and music. And it's not Web3, it's not NFTs, it is something that's been around for a while and that we use every day and don't even know it. But these tools are now getting better and better and better. And I'll tell you, if you ever want to see something that will cause you to have major epiphanies, there is a TED Talk by Holly Herndon, and you can look it up. It's on YouTube. And Holly not only is a singer-songwriter, but she's like this computer scientist, and she's created, with the help of this company called Never Before Heard Sounds, She's created this software that does a couple of things. One is it'll take in and learn from her body of work, all of her recordings, and then she can sing a song and it'll transfer it into Japanese or Chinese or Russian in her voice. And it sounds amazing. But she has this, this man come up on stage and sing in a microphone, and he's got a beautiful voice. Then they hand him another mic. When he sings through it, her voice comes out flawlessly. And this is where we're at today. AI is growing in leaps and bounds. And, you know, there's a company called Lyric Studio. So if you're writing a song and you get stuck, it'll help you finish your song. And now they've got Melody Studio coming where it'll help you musically to finish that bridge or that chorus. So again, my grandfather used to say that an idiot is someone who doesn't know what you just found out. And with this AI stuff, some of it's been around for many years, but some of it has been around a week and a half. So don't feel stupid if you don't know this stuff, but it's evolving and changing. And I highly recommend Bobby Osinski's book for every musician because it's not just creating music from someone's body of work. It's how it'll help you master your recording or noise reduction, or to find an amplifier sound that is what you're looking for.

It's, it's endless. Well, it seems like it just seems like a deep and vast toolbox. Yeah. Um, that can be used for evil. Let's all be, let's be very honest here. Um, yeah, on the news this morning, there was talk, talk, uh, by our representatives here in Tennessee about protecting the creators and putting up, you know, guide wires for AI, which I don't think is an awful idea. Yeah, I hope we don't overcorrect and stifle development of further development of those tools. Yeah. With regards to AI and all the things we've talked about, including, you know, audience engagement, it's 2024. You are an independent artist. You're getting ready to roll out a release cycle. Um, without, you know, you don't want to give away all, all the secret recipes of label logic, but what is, what is Jay's, um, recipe for this prepares an artist for the greatest success in the release cycle in 2024?

You know what's funny is it hasn't changed in a decade. The tools have changed, but the first thing I do is sort of what you do when you sit down with someone. You, you're like, Okay, you listen to the music, right? And then you're like, okay, who's your tribe? Who's your audience? Who would you like your audience to be? Who would you like to collaborate with, open for, have open for you? Who, you know, Jimmy Buffett had his Parrotheads, you know, BTS and KISS had the KISS Army, the BTS Army, like, who is that tribe? And then secondarily, you know, music, audience, and then like, what is the narrative? Why should anyone care? We are storytellers. We are story listeners. If you have a powerful narrative along with powerful, strong music, you know, like, is it aspirational? Is this, uh, you know, did you overcome adversity? What is it about your music? When you're in an elevator with some sync person or a TV booker, everybody on your team needs to be on the same page with what is that narrative. And it's, it's so important now that even in Spotify submission tool, you have to put in what that narrative is. I think sometimes people miss that. So those tools have remained the same. Now what, what's changed are things like, you know, targeted online advertising has its ebbs and flows and there's certain things for a while one platform is overperforming and then for a while another one is. There are companies out there using AI. To help you find your tribe. And I think that's really good. Undercover ads, boost, you know, things like that where we've seen that those things can work until they don't. You know what I mean? Like these are all just tools and we try as many of them as possible. But I think the basics, the basic blocking and tackling is still the same.

Yeah, no, I totally agree.

Release cadence is everything.

Having a marketing plan around every track, which is absolutely— which is a Jay Gilbert-ism, by the way. I utilize that quite a bit when talking to clients. Um, they're all very, very sound, sound advice. Um, great. Well, you know, I was afraid that we were going to run way over, and so I kind of, kind of jumped around and skipped forward here. Um, but I, but I do I do want to, want to come back to, to a couple of the items that we touched on earlier. Um, this year, what has you most excited? Um, what is Jay Gilbert excited and chomping at the bit?

Well, working with really great artists is really exciting. Working with— I work with some data platforms and some people who are doing some technology that's really going to help us do things like making sure your information's accurate on SoundExchange, making sure that your catalog is up globally at all the DSPs, you know. And it sort of ties in with what Symphonic's superpower is, in my opinion, and that is, you know, working closely with artists and looking at monetization. And I think that going forward this year, there are some areas that really excite me. One is artists are getting, and managers are getting so much smarter about revenue. Like where does revenue come from? What are neighboring rights? What, what are, you know, publishing in sync and things like that. But also you and I both know that there's not a ton of money in streaming for middle-class and developing artists, right? And so, but there is revenue there. We're seeing artists like you were talking about, how can you quit your job as a bartender? Well, man, if you've got those 1,000 fans, and if they're subscribing to your Patreon, or if they're buying your premium vinyl, if they're, if you offer experiences. And what I mean by experiences are things like some artists are really getting involved in, I will co-write a song with you, I will give you a piano lesson, you know, more, you know, I'll record a video for you, more than just your typical, you know, music releases. I think that people who take merch seriously on the road, um, can make really good revenue, and the fans want that. They want the premium vinyl. And, you know, Will Page has said that half of vinyl that's purchased is by people without a turntable. And if that's true, then it's really— that's a merch item. You get it signed at the merch table, you put it up on your wall, that I show you that I'm a bigger Accidentals fan than you are because I got the signed vinyl that I'm bragging about, right? It's bragging rights. And I go to the merch table when I go to see shows, and I know you do too. And I'm often disappointed that they don't have either premium vinyl or they don't have the shirt in my size or whatever it is, I think they're leaving a lot of money on the table. But you hit it earlier, and it's so important, man. You got to work. And if you, if you're going to play live shows and play live and play live, that's where you grow your audience and you get better as a musician. You get better as a songwriter. You learn how to perform because sometimes you're playing a festival with lots of people.— that's a whole different experience than playing a club with 2 people fighting, you know, and that's your audience. You know, those experiences are really valuable, um, and that's how you get longevity in this business, I think.

Yeah, well, and it's— again, it's long-term longevity, um, no matter what technologies happen. I feel like the live business is never going to go away, um, you know, we've been— we've had live shows since Mozart. Yeah, you know, yeah, it is one of the oldest human experiences is to want to hear music that pleases the ear. Yeah. Um, speaking of music that pleases the ear, I, I have to ask you my serial question, question I ask everyone, and you're not allowed to answer. I know you're going to say The Accidentals. You're not allowed to answer. Okay, that's fair. And they're near and dear to my heart. I want to know what else you're listening to. Is that— oh, Jay, Jay is the world's biggest Accidentals fan. If you guys— I am familiar with this band. You should really check it out. I'm biased, of course, because I work with them. But, but Jay, I've heard him say, well, you know, I'm the biggest Accidentals fan in the world about a dozen times. Outside of the Accidentals, who is your favorite current artist? Who's Who's the artist that you're dialing into and that you're just vibing with the most right now?

Yeah, and I'll do that too. When I get into an artist, I overload and I'll play a song 10 times in a row if I really, really like it. I love all types of music and I'm still hungry for new music, which I know when you get a little bit older, they say that that sort of goes away and you have your comfort food of what you listen to in college and all of that. That's not the same for people like you and me. We're constantly going, hey, did you hear that thing? You know, and there was this song I heard online by a band called Drag Talk, and it's called Egyptian Flesh. And I've listened to that song 50 times. It, I just, it reminds me, it's just got this thing like, remember the first time you heard Loser by Beck? And it was just like, whoa, what is this? So I love Drag Talk. I think it's really good. Probably the most melodic album is one that I actually got to work on, is Robin Taylor Zander, Robin Zander's son. And it is more hooks than a tackle box. It's the Traveling Wilburys, it's Tom Petty, it's the Beatles. It's, it's super, super melodic. Another one, I went to see a show at the Troubadour recently here in Los Angeles and saw Hannah Wicklund. She's, I don't know, 24-year-old female singer, guitar player who's played with people, you know, like she played the Crossroads Festival and Joe Bonamassa and that sort of stuff. And yes, she is an amazing guitar player. But you'll never hear me say something like, oh, this person's good for a girl or good for a guy or whatever. She's just good. And she has this voice unlike anybody I've heard for a while, it's just— it'll bring you to your knees. Um, so I really love, you know, Robin Taylor Zander, Hannah Wickland, uh, Drag Talk. But I also listen to a lot of Americana slash country stuff. There's something that just speaks to me about storytelling. You know, I went to AmericanaFest in Nashville a couple months ago, and it was just a joy to see some of these artists You know, and that stuff isn't going to get the huge numbers, you know, that a Drake is going to get, but there's a lot of compelling music there. So I always check out these playlists where it's sort of this singer-songwriter-y kind of stuff. That's— it's—

I just love it. Well, I think there's a— there's a sustainability in Americana. I used to tell pop country writers that we would work with at previous gig. Uh, you know, country, pop country might be your girlfriend or boyfriend right now, but Americana is going to be your wife. And, uh, you look at, you look at folks like Jim Lauderdale who are, you know, well into their 70s, still touring, still selling out shows, and still making a, a very, very good living playing what is now considered Americana. Um, yeah, that's, that's not a bad way to sustain I don't think so. Um, yeah, I'm biased. I'm in Nashville, Tennessee. It's one of the things we do best in Nashville, Tennessee, although we are genre agnostic in this town now. We've got great hip-hop and great rock and sure, country, of course. Um, but Americana is something I've really grown to love as well.

Maybe that's just me showing my age. Um, but you're right, it's sustainable, right? And, and the last thing I'll say just really quickly is I've been there. I worked for a jazz label for 5 years, and I have a soft spot in my heart for jazz. And there's this, uh, blind kid who's amazing, Matthew Whitaker. He's been on 60 Minutes, Ellen, you know. Um, and I was talking to his manager yesterday, and I listened to his new album, which is all of these like organ, you know, keyboardists. And one of them is Joey Friend, uh, Joey Friend Francesco. Francesco, I'm messing it up. Anyway, like, he's sadly— he, he— De Francesco. Anyway, he sadly passed away last year, and he was largely considered to be like the best Hammond B-3 organ player on the planet. Played with Miles Davis, played with everybody. And I got to shoot one of his albums and spend some time with him and his wonderful wife Gloria. And anyway, he's on this album. And I got sort of an advanced copy of it. It's coming out soon. But I love all types of music. And I got really excited listening to this Matthew Whitaker record. Because man, those guys are players. It's sort of like Nashville. There's so many great musicians playing on those records there. I call them players, because I played music in bands. But I was never a player. But I played with people who were, you know, Tommy Thayer, who's now in KISS, for example. Those guys are players. They can express themselves through their instruments. So I love the Nashville scene. I love the jazz stuff. And I'll leave you with one thought. There's a great documentary on Amazon called It All Begins with a Song.

And it's about the Nashville music—

supervised that. Yeah. But Peter is I recommend it to people all the time. And it's one of those— have some tissues handy because it'll, it'll make you cry a little bit. But if you want to see how Nashville works, and they do work there, it's a great documentary.

Well, that's awesome. What a great plug for a fantastic documentary. Jay, it's been a pleasure, sir. You're always enlightening. I love that you are always so close to the art. I think that— thank you, brother— more industry executives could learn by remembering that the art is the reason why we're all here.

Thank you.

I appreciate you do a good job of pointing that out. Thank you so much for joining us here. Ladies and gentlemen, you've been listening to the Music Industry 360 podcast. My name is Randall Foster. Thank you for joining us.

And we will see you next time.