A Doctor's Journey into Functional Medicine with Dr. Jenn Simmons

Welcome to the Wellness Sherpa Podcast, where we engage with passionate leaders, holistic thinkers, and disruptors who courageously share their personal journey, mission and wisdom with you. Together, we create a safe space to empower you to live your best, most vital life. Thanks for being here. Well, hello, everyone. This is Jen Payer, and I am thrilled to be here with. Actually, you don't know this. I thought I'd share this in the podcast. One of my idols. I first saw Dr. Jen at a mindshare event when you were up on stage. And I wish I had known you nine years ago when I went through my breast health challenges. And so I'm just thrilled to have you here on the Wellness Sherpa. And you have. You're so smart and you're so compassionate and you have such amazing information for women and even their spouses, how their spouses can support. So thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.

That was incredibly sweet. And I'll tell you that I firmly believe that God gives you what you need when you need it. So we were meant to meet now and not then, because had we met then, who knows if you would have gone on your journey or I would have gone on mine, Right? And so I. I do believe that God gives you what you need when you need it. So we were meant to meet now and do what we're. What we're going to do for the world in synergy now.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you for that. All right, so how does the top surgeon in Philadelphia go from that level of showing up in the world to. To becoming an integrative doctor? What happened?

Yeah, well, it depends who you ask, right? Like, if you ask my former colleagues, I lost my mind and my skills. However, you know, there's no teacher, like being a student. And like most people who have made this kind of leap, I had a pain, a pain to purpose experience. I really come to be in the breast cancer space very organically in that I come from a breast cancer family. Breast cancer is part of the thread of our tapestry. I really don't remember a time in my childhood where I didn't know about breast cancer. And as a young child, I had a first cousin. Her name was Linda Creed, and she was a singer songwriter in the 1970s and 1980s. She wrote all the music for the Spinners and the Stylistics. I am way going to age myself right now. She was the queen of Motown sound in Philadelphia. She was beautiful, brilliant, larger than life, and she was my hero. She wrote 54 hits in all, and her most famous song was the Greatest Love of All. So she wrote that song in 1977 as the title track to the movie the Greatest, starring Muhammad Ali. But it really received its acclaim in March of 1986 when Whitney Houston would release that song to the world. And at that time, it would spend 14 weeks at the top of the charts. Only my cousin Linda would never know, because she died of metastatic breast cancer just one month after Whitney released that song. I was 16 years old and my hero died. And her life, and ultimately her death, gave birth to my life's purpose. Because I never wanted another woman, another family, another community to suffer the way that our suffered. And so I did the only thing I knew how to do. I became a doctor. I was the first doctor in my family. I became a surgeon. I became the first fellowship trained breast surgeon in Philadelphia. And I did that really well for a really long time. And at what was arguably the height of my career, when I have a lot of balls in the air and I think I'm an expert juggler and I'm running the breast cancer program and I'm running the cancer program for general and in general at my hospital. And I'm a wife and a mother and an athlete and a philanthropist and a writer and doing all of these things. And I go from probably being one of the most high functioning people you could imagine to I can't walk across the room because I don't have the breath in my body. And I go through this intensive workup because, you know, that's what happens when your prize pony is not well. And I find myself three days later sitting in the office of my friend and colleague and physician. And he tells me that I need surgery and chemo, radiation, and I have like, you know, a week to decide. And these are things that I said all day, every day, without hesitation or reservation. But I can assure you when these words are coming at you feels very different. And the irony was not lost on me. And I'm grateful to whatever you want to call it. God, higher universe. There was a voice that told me that there was something more. Now, I had no idea what that war was. I had never heard of. The more experienced, the more I didn't know about, the more. But something was telling me, go, go find another solution. There has to be something more. And my doctor told me if I refused treatment, that I would die, just like I had told thousands of women before that. Because, you know, that's always the first question after, why did this happen? Is what happens if I Don't treat it, because the treatments are horrible. And my doctor told me that I would die. And it's not that I didn't believe him or understand that that wasn't the standard of care I did. I both believed him and knew that it was the standard of care.

And yet I had voice.

I couldn't silence the voice. Yeah, I couldn't silence the voice. It was loud. It was loud. And so, you know, I was very lucky in that I got answers quickly, not to why I was sick, but answers as to how I could get well. So very early on, I found myself sitting in a lecture hall, and a man walks on the stage, and he introduced himself as a functional medicine physician. Now, at this point, I'm a doctor for about 20 years, and all I can think about is, there's no such thing as a functional medicine physician. What is this quack talking about? Then I remembered that I'm sick and I'm there for a reason. And I tell myself to check my ego at the door and tune in to what's happening in front of me. And thank God I did, because that was the shift. That was the change I needed. That was the voice that I was hearing. Because that man, despite the fact that I hadn't heard of him, was Mark Hyman. And what he was telling me would telescope not only how I was going to get better, but how I was going to spend the rest of my life. The impact that I was to make. Because what I learned that day, the big message of what I learned that day is that in the conventional medical world, we're focused on the wrong thing. So I personally was focused on the wrong thing. I was focused on my disease. And for the purposes of my patients, I was focused on the wrong thing, was focused on the tumor. But the tumor is not the problem. Tumor is never the problem. The tumor is the symptom of the problem. And unless you back up about 10 steps and ask the question, why is that symptom there? Not only are you not going to get your answer, but you're not going to find health. You're never going to resolve the question unless you ask it. And we are highly trained to not ask that question. We are highly trained to put together a constellation of symptoms, give it a name, and prescribe. Prescribe a pill, prescribe a procedure, prescribe. And as long as you color within those lines, the system's really happy with you, because we just go from one thing to the next. And it was in that space and time that not only did I Realize that I had a lot of personal work to do to get better, but that if I remained a surgeon, I was a part of the problem. I was just taking people from over a bridge from. From one illness to the next. Because unless you figure out your why, unless you change that, there is nothing that is going to change the trajectory of your life. Because removing the tumor and not removing the reason why the cancer is there does nothing to prevent a recurrence, and it does nothing to prevent that next manifestation to illness. And in addition to that, especially in the world of breast cancer, our treatments are not benign. Surgery is very deforming. And you can ask any woman who's had a mastectomy, There is never a day for the rest of her life where she doesn't remember that she had breast cancer. Reconstruction, no reconstruction. She will never forget, ever. It will always define her.

Well, it's an imprint, right? It's an imprint.

That's right. And those scars run deep.

Yes.

Way deeper than anyone gives them credit for and way deeper than anyone is ever prepared for.

Ever. Well, and it's interesting. One of the things, Dr. Jen, that you and I talked about a few months ago is cancer takes a long time. Maybe not so much with what's happening in the world today, but in the past, cancer took eight to 10 years to really show up in the body, the tumor. And yet when you get that diagnosis, there is this fast track. Oh my gosh, you've got to make a decision now. You have like three days. You know, you find out on Thursday and on Monday your surgery scheduled. Yeah, yeah, right.

And that's, that's really by design because they don't want to give you time to think. Right. That's not, that's not what they're after. They don't, they don't want to have it be a shared decision. It's still very much designed to be this paternalistic. You're the patient, I'm the doctor. Here's what I'm prescribing. And there's really very little conversation about it. And that, that actually is one of the biggest objections that I have is that so many people are entering into therapy without true informed consent. They really don't know what they're getting into. Not only do they not fully understand the implications of whatever is happening, but they also don't fully understand the ramifications. So I'll be a little more specific. When we talk about the treatments for breast cancer, like chemotherapy or radiation or even the anti hormonal drugs, we talk about it in the context of five years. Right, A five year survival. But when you talk about the damage that comes from chemotherapy or the damage that comes from radiation, or the damage that comes from these anti hormonal therapies, I'm sorry, my dog is not participating. Growling in the background Teddy. So whenever we talk about these therapies and this five year window, which is virtually meaningless, the things that happen afterwards, heart disease, dementia, osteoporosis, mood disturbance, arthropathies, bone loss, osteoporosis, like all of these things that are happening that actually decrease both the quality and the quantity of people's lives and then their death is getting attributed to something else. So for instance, if you have a hormone positive cancer and you're put on an aromatase inhibitor, which we know leads to bone wasting, if you then have a fracture and die of a complication of a fracture, which is very legitimately possible because it happens not infrequently, that death is not attributed to breast cancer, despite the fact that you probably would have never developed osteoporosis but for the aromatase inhibitors.

Correct.

So, you know, we have a system that is really broken. And the problem is that there's no incentive for the system to fix it, to change. There's none. There's none. It's how the system operates. No pun intended. And so, you know, for them to revamp the system right now, there's no way that that can happen. Doctors don't get paid unless you're sick. Hospitals don't get paid unless you're sick. Pharmaceuticals don't make money unless you utilize pharmaceuticals. And on purpose, these drugs are developed so that one drug requires the next, which requires the next, which requires the next.

Yep.

And people are not informed. So they're, they're taught about things like, well, you know, there's a 50% risk reduction. Well, so if you have a 2% chance of recurrence and you take this drug or do this procedure, you have a 1% chance of recurrence, but you're two to three timesing your risk of osteoporosis and heart disease and these things, it, like the math doesn't work, but it's not presented to anyone in a way that they are able to make that decision because it's not truly informed consent.

Well, and I think on top of that, when I look at my own journey, I never address the terrain. Right. Because you're not taught to. So going back to what you had shared in your journey is I, you know, they treat the symptoms and you aren't treating the cause. And until you look at, wait a minute, I've got a toxic load in my body and I need to address that and get my immune system stronger, which all of the standard of care procedures actually make it worse. Until you're addressing that cause, the likelihood of recurrence is there because you've never addressed how you got cancer in the first place.

That's exactly right. That is exactly right. And not only are the physicians not trained on helping people to recover their health, on helping people to get to that root cause, on helping people to build these pillars of health that people like you and I talked about all the time, they're not trained. But also, that's not their job. Right. Like what? They're doing their job. And please know that I am not disparaging all these providers, these providers that go to medical school, that go to nursing school, that do these, you know, advanced practice training. I am not disparaging them. They have big, beautiful hearts and they're doing their job. It's just that we're not training them to do the right thing. And it goes back to. That's not how our system currently works. If our system rewarded health, we'd be looking at something very different.

Right?

But right now, like, if a doctor has a population that's healthy, that he's starving, can't pay his bills, it's the way that the system is set up that there's no reward for driving health. And so there's no training around driving health, and there's no incentive for driving health. Whereas if you prescribe the latest, greatest chemotherapeutic drug, despite the fact that it doesn't work.

Right.

But if you. Right. Like there, there's no outcome tied to it. Right. Just if you prescribe it, you're getting a big bonus. And it's not, it's not that direct. So I don't want to make it like your doctor's a drug dealer. It's not, it's not like that. But that, you know, this is what the hospitals and the cancer centers, this is what they're instructing their people to do.

Well, and it's a conflict of interest. I came from, you know, 29 years in the banking world and conflict of conflicts of interest because of the regulation where, I mean, we, you know, we couldn't even take a vendor to lunch, for example, or they couldn't take us to lunch because of the first. Like, did you take that vendor, sign that vendor, because they took you to lunch?

Right.

It Was that monitored and measured? And if you look at the, if you look at the medical system, the incentives to, you know, utilize certain drugs, I mean, I've seen it. I've got elderly parents to watch them get switched off of one drug because it's out of patent into a new drug that's more expensive. And I'm just like, what in the heck? But I see the conflicts over and over and over. And that, you know, just amplifies your point that the system is so broken. So let's bring us to today. So you left being this top notch surgeon, what the practice look like today. And then I want to talk about your amazing book.

So in 20, I guess 18, when I finished my functional med medicine training, because I literally just submerged myself in that training the moment I knew about it. I am, I'm an early adopter, admittedly, and like Mark Hyman, lectured for three hours that day. And by the end of the day, I had already signed up with the Institute for Functional Medicine. So I spent three years immersed in that training, healed myself, thank God, and then really tried to be a functional medicine doctor inside of the conventional medical system. Right. Like I was going to teach my patients how to eat and make sure they were moving and put them on a supplement regimen, but, you know, they Give me like 15 minutes to see the patient. And that includes like removing sutures if I have to remove sutures and like doing whatever I have to do, so. So it doesn't work.

Right.

And so I decided that if I was really going to make an impact in this space, I couldn't do it as a surgeon. And I also felt like, you know, there were plenty of people doing that. And even though, you know, it's definitely a skilled position, don't get me wrong, but I felt like, you know, there's a lot of people that are doing this. I'm not that special here, but I can be something really special in the integrative oncology space. I decided that I was quitting my job and I was going to open up functional medicine practice that specialized in integrative oncology, despite the fact that my husband told me I couldn't and my best friend told me I couldn't. And, you know, the world kind of thought that I lost my mind or my skills or both. I did it. I did it. And in 2019, I opened Real Health MD, which is a functional medicine oasis for people who are looking to reclaim their health following a breast cancer diagnosis and really have the health that they probably never had their whole Life. And it's been a really, really amazing opportunity for me and experience for me. But I got about three years into this practice and realized that essentially what I did was I recreated my surgical practice in the integrative medicine space and that I was making a huge difference for the women that I was treating one on. But I wanted to help millions of women. Like, I dream big. I dream big. And so I decided that maybe I should write a book. And so I spent the last probably 18 months of my life, doctor by day, author by night. And it, you know, it took me longer than I had hoped. But that I think I finally came up with what is a really important piece of work for anyone who wants to prevent reverse recover from a breast cancer diagnosis. And it really addresses everyone. It's called the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer.

Let's see the title.

It's called the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer.

Perfect.

And, and it's available on Amazon and it really helps anyone who is looking for answers in this space. And I'm providing answers in a way that people aren't getting them anywhere else in there in that, you know, there's a whole section on what to do the second you get diagnosed.

Beautiful.

And the first thing I do say is like, take a breath, take a pause, because there is no rush. Despite the fact that they're trying to schedule you for surgery or they're trying to schedule you for whatever they're trying to schedule you for. That is their agenda and not yours. And so many of us spend so much of our time on other people's agendas. I mean, think about the scrolling, right? You're on someone else's agenda when you're scrolling, not yours. Yeah, right. Our brains are being hijacked so often, and this is another situation where our brains are being hijacked because we are the, the fear of, of God is put into us along with that diagnosis and we are like, rush, rush, Rush. You have to do something immediately. Despite the fact that, as you said, the timeline, although things or a change in the timeline is probably, you know, three and a half or so years ago, I would have told you that the timeline is an 8 to 10 year timeline. Now we've, we've had something that is complicating that said timeline. And I think that we're, we're really starting to see evidence of that now. But in any event, we're still talking about years. So taking two, three, four weeks to make the right decision for you is meaningless.

And an informed Decision and an informed.

Decision, which is so important. So, you know, I have chapters about what to ask your medical oncologist, what to ask your radiation oncologist, what to ask your surgeon, but at the same time, I'm describing to you what their answers are going to be and having you understand what the follow up questions are so that they don't get to get away with things like, well, this is just something that happens. Or, you know, radiation is what we do after lumpectomy. You know, explain to me why is there any survival benefit? Because if they tell you that there's survival benefit from radiation, they're not telling you the truth. I'm giving people the answers so that they come prepared and they can truly make an informed decision. Then I cover all the drivers of health. Because the truth is that health is never going to happen within the confines of a doctor's office or a hospital, or a chemotherapeutic suite or a radiation suite.

Well, and it's never one thing, right?

It's never one thing, right? Health happens at home. And it happens when we build, when we firmly install those pillars of health, when we're eating in a way that nourishes us, when we're fasting in a way that heals us, when we're sleeping, when we're, when we're moving, when we're eliminating toxins, detoxifying, when we're living in a purposeful, connected way. All of this is so important. But then I'm also asking the questions, right? Like, where did this come from?

Right.

What is the message here? What are we meant to learn here? Because there's a message. Without question, there's a message.

I've never met a cancer patient, let alone a breast cancer patient, who hasn't had a significant blessing as a result of cancer. I know for me, it got me out of a 29, you know, year career in something that I had outgrown, I wasn't aligned to anymore. And I had a much bigger purpose.

Yeah.

And I look at it, but you.

Have to allow for that.

Yes. Oh, yeah. It took me a year to unravel kind of the programming and the conditioning and then to just sit in, I call it the empty space, the nothingness. To really say, okay, what is the blessing in this? This is here to teach me something.

Yes, yes. So.

And it's an important part of the healing journey.

Yes.

Such an important part.

Yes. So we have to remember that it's never about blame or shame. And like everything else, we have to approach this with Curiosity. And if all you can see is crime and punishment, right? What I did wrong, what I'm being punished for, if that's all you see, you're never going to get that. But if instead you can approach it with curiosity, with genuine curiosity, what am I meant to learn? What is not working for me? What do I have that I don't need? What do I need that I don't have? What is this trying to tell me? If you can instead see it as opportunity rather than punishment, then you do have the opportunity for blessings and.

And to fully heal.

So for many women, if you do that, right, if you use it as an opportunity, for many women, they discover what health is for the first time in their lives.

Yes. Yes.

It's really amazing.

So two more questions. Tell me about the QT scan. So when I saw you, when I first met you, even though you didn't know me, you started talking about this scan.

Yeah.

Can you share more with the audience? You know what the scan is, what it is meant to do for them.

Yes.

And how women can access it.

Yeah.

Because I'm thrilled about this piece.

Yeah. So it is very exciting. But I do want to back up a little bit and say that. If you choose to screen for breast cancer, that's okay. Right. But what is not okay is taking the screening population, which is healthy women, and exposing them to something that puts them in danger. And we have heard collectively as a society for 50 years that mammograms save lives. And this is one of the things that really stuck in my crawl from the time that I left conventional medicine. Because if you're taking someone who's healthy and exposing them to radiation, how is that saving their life year after year after year after year after year? I dug deep into the data, and as it turns out, mammograms do not save lives. And so for many years, I was not recommending mammogram. And about, I would say two years ago, someone told me about this test, and, you know, I always get questions about what to screen with. Should I do thermography? Should I do ultrasound? So I do do want to say quickly that thermography is an amazing, amazing technology. I love it. But it's not a screening test for cancer. And that's why it mostly got a bad rap, because people were using it as a screening test for cancer. And that's not what it is. That's not how it works. That's not what it's powered to do. It's an excellent test to look for a heat signal which is associated with inflammation. Now, inflammation is the root cause of 80% of chronic disease. And so it's very important to know if you have inflammation. And sometimes said inflammation is associated with a cancer, but it's not a one to one relationship. And there are many cancers that are very slow growing that will not provoke this inflammatory response. You may still have inflammation in your body, but there has to be a considerable inflammatory response in order for there to be a finding associated with the cancer. I do use thermography. I use it as a screening test, but not for cancer, for inflammation. Ultrasound is another test that people often seek because there's no radiation involved. Most conventional providers, because they've been trained to get a mammogram first, refuse to write for ultrasounds in independent of mammograms. So, you know, you have to really find a provider who will work closely with you to respect your opinion, to respect your decision not to be radiated year in and year out. And sometimes it means paying out of pocket for that because oftentimes insurers won't pay for an ultrasound unless you've had a mammogram. Because the mammogram is often the trigger as to whether or not you need an ultrasound. Ultrasounds are more expensive so they're trying to avoid doing the ultrasound. That's, that's what's happening there. So, you know, those are our possibilities. However, you know, I do very much believe in self breast examination. I think that everyone should be doing self breast examination no matter what. I think that no one is going to know you and your body better than you know yourself. And it's very important for you to know your body, know what it looks like and know what it feels like. So I'm very much a proponent of self breast examination. And so, you know, when we compare the population of women that screen to the population of women that don't screen, and we know this from the Swedish studies, with women who have the exact same access to care and the exact same access to the kind of care. Right. So the care is equal, the access is equal. Population that screens, population that doesn't. And there's no difference in survival. The only difference is in the population that screens, more women are being treated for breast cancer. And that's because when you screen, you are going to pick up things that don't need to be treated.

Yeah.

And once you ring that bell for a woman, it's nearly impossible to unring it. Yeah.

Then you get thrown into the system.

You do, you've been committed and there's obviously no attempt to distinguish between who needs to be treated and who doesn't need to be treated, because where would that benefit the system? Right. Like, they want to treat everyone, of course. So no one's hard at work on a test to determine which breast cancers need to be treated and which don't, because there's no benefit to that test. Right, Right. For the system. So a very, very, very brilliant man named John Clock in 2012 decided that there had to be a better way to image the breast. That mammograms are very insensitive. There's tons of false positives, there's tons of false negatives. It's just not a great test. And. And it will cause a certain percentage of breast cancers every single year and lead to a significant amount of financial expense, emotional expense. I mean, you know, these things are not insignificant. And MRI is not a solution for screening because MRIs themselves are very expensive. There's access issues. You can't get them everywhere. And mri, in order to be useful and meaningful, requires gadolinium. Now, gadolinium is a heavy metal, right? So this is. This is something that builds up in your system and causes organ damage. It's causing brain damage, it's causing kidney damage, causing bone damage. So MRI is not a viable option either. And so what we are left with is we have to come up with something better. Right. And so he. He's. I forget how many patents he has under his belt, but let's call it 8, 9, 10, 11, 13. I don't remember. He comes up with a way to image the breast using sound wave technology transmitted through a water bath that collects 200,000 times more data points than MRI and creates a true 3D reconstruction with 40 times the resolution of MRI, all without pain, without compression. Quick, affordable, all of this. And so the clinical trials went into effect in 2018. It was FDA cleared to screen and to screen women with dense breasts, which represents 40% of the screening population and the population where our current screening failed the most.

Right.

But that is not the most important part of this technology, because to me, it's not only the sensitivity and the specificity of the test, it's the fact that we need to somehow eliminate the over biopsy, the over diagnosis, and the over treatment, because 75% of the breast biopsies that are done are done for benign disease. 75%. And now just having had a biopsy means that you're high risk.

Yeah.

So that's a bell that's not unrung for Women, and it's the over diagnosis and over treatment. And as we spoke about much earlier, the treatments for breast cancer are not benign and they lead to significant other medical problems. So this technology has functional capabilities, meaning that if you find something, you can then reimage the breast in a short interval, 60 days, count the cells, measure a doubling time. And we know that cancers have a doubling time of 100 days or less. And things that are not cancer or not important have greater doubling times. All those women who had this something would have previously been biopsied. And now we can say, you have something that's not active, we'll see you in a year.

Right.

So we eliminate that over biopsy, we eliminate the over diagnosis, and we eliminate the over treatment. And the women that need treatment are going to get treatment. So, you know, I am not saying that no one's ever going to have a mammogram again, but I am going to make sure that everyone who wants access to this study is going to get access in this study. This is where I'm going to spend the next 10 years of my life, the rest of my career, as far as I'm concerned, to make sure that I put these imaging centers up everywhere so that people can get access to this study and so you never have to have another screening mammogram again.

And so where are these today?

Yeah, so the first Perfection Imaging is going to open on the east coast in July, and then it's just going to grow from there. So if you go to Perfection Imaging, and perfection is spelled with a Q in the center instead of a T, if you go to Perfection Imaging, you will see our initial site where you can actually book a scan now, and you will learn about our future places. I intend to open another four this year, and then it's just going to grow from there. So in the next two years, there will be many, many choices. But right now there's a couple of units operating on the west coast in California, in Scottsdale, and I'm going to handle the east coast and, and hopefully, as people learn about this technology, I'll help them to develop centers in their cities.

Amazing. And my last question, and I think you've already answered it, but I'm sure there's more to it, is what's your legacy?

Yeah, so I, I want to be known as the person that completely changed the way that we diagnose, treat, reverse, prevent, and screen for breast cancer.

Well said.

It's. It's not too big a goal.

I know you're. You're a big energy and a big manifester. And I, as somebody who has been in the system and pulled myself out, I'm grateful for the wisdom and the knowledge and everything that you've shared today. And I know it will help so many in this audience and in the world.

Please God. Please God. Please God.

Absolutely. So grateful for you, Dr. Jen.

Thank you. Don't forget to pick up your copy of the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer, available on Amazon. And this is not for you. This is for you. This is for your daughters. It's for your best friend. It's for your mother, it's for your cousin, it's for your aunt, it's for your neighbor. It's for everyone. Because everyone benefits from what's happening in this book. Because the truth is that when we look at the numbers we're talking about, one in three people will have a cancer diagnosis over their lifetime. And breast health is health. And the same exact things that I talk about in the book that are going to give you healthy breasts are also going to give you a healthy brain, healthy heart, healthy gut, healthy skin, healthy joints, healthy bones, healthy urogenitary tract. And, you know, the point of all of this is to live a long life and die young. That should be all of our goals, that we should be meaningful and relevant to well beyond 100 years and not spend our last 20 years debilitated in a nursing home and in diapers. Right. That is not our goal. Our goal is to live well, live long and die young.

I love it. Well, thank you so much for your time today and your generous information with the audience. And I look forward to catching up outside of this.

Yeah, me too. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you.