From Corporate Burnout to Living Lighter: Decluttering Mind, Body, and Spirit with Heather Aaderma

Welcome to the Wellness Sherpa Podcast, where we engage with passionate leaders, holistic thinkers, and disruptors who courageously share their personal journey, mission and wisdom with you. Together, we create a safe space to empower you to live your best, most vital life. Thanks for being here. Well, I am so thrilled to finally have one of my dear friends, Heather Artema, join me today. Heather is the founder of the School of Living Lighter. And this is way more than probably where your mind is going right now with what she covers. Heather had a corporate background before, so I'm going to ask her to share how the heck she went from a corporate background to being the founder of the school Living Lighter. And I can tell from your space there is no clutter. So we're going to get deep into clutter. Mind clutter, house clutter, spiritual clutter, emotional clutter. All of the things that take us out of our purpose. Right. They're all distractions.

So welcome.

I'm so thrilled you're here. Yay.

I'm thrilled as well. Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah. So let's start with how did you go from being in corporate and you were in corporate for quite some time?

I was in corporate for 20 years.

I was going to say 20 years.

Yeah, 20 years. And I'll share that. I had some phenomenal experiences. I traveled the globe. Not many people get to say that. I went to Amsterdam, Dubai, Central America, Mexico. I was all over the place. I had some very exciting clients and some really interesting work. And towards the end of those 20 years, I was bored. And I was also beginning to feel empty. And I was asking myself, is this really it? You see, I got into corporate because it was the right thing to do. You know, you go to college, you find that corporate job, you get your MBA and your parents are happy, right?

Yes.

They can high five themselves and say, job well done. You know, we've launched her successfully. And throughout all of that, I never really asked myself, what makes you excited? What makes you interested? And I was always a pleaser. So I just did what I thought I was supposed to do. Now I'm grateful for that. I don't regret any of that because I learned so much. I am also grateful, though, that one late evening, probably around 1 or 2 in the morning, I sat up in bed and just had a conversation with myself. You can't keep going the way you're going. Life is too short, it's too precious. You gotta get out of this corporate world. I know. You don't know what it's gonna be. But just know that whatever you set your mind to, you can do. And so the next day, I told my husband. I was also the breadwinner at the time, had been the breadwinner for many years. And that was, you know, that was just a relationship that worked for both of us. And I, I'm feeling empty. And I know there's something out there for me. I don't know what it is, but I think that if I open the door, the first door, I'll be able to figure it out pretty quickly. And so we, we agreed, you know, okay, within a year, I would leave my corporate job and go from there. And so that, that was the beginning.

Okay. And. Okay, so I love what you're saying because I think many, many people, especially women, have that experience where they sit up and they say, okay, this isn't working for me. And many of us were raised to live appropriately, not authentically. Right? That's what you're talking about. So what happened next? So you get this, you know, wake up. Okay, I'm empty. How did you figure out what did light you up? Because this is. When I ask my clients this question, they kind of look at me like, what brings you joy? And they just have this deer in the headlights and they want to say, my kids, my significant other, my pets. Right? It's. It's about something else, not about the light within. So tell me that process. What happened? What happened next?

What happened next? Well, I had a hint. So a few years prior to this, I had been diagnosed with autoimmune conditions. And when I got diagnosed, I asked the rheumatologist, what if I changed my diet? And she said, well, you look like you're a healthy eater. And I said, well, looks can be deceiving. And yes, I think I'm a healthy eater, but what if I got curious about that? And she said, no, don't, don't, don't go on Google. Don't try and change your diet. It's too hard. You're healthy enough. And, you know, if you don't want the methotrexate, what about this one? Or what about that one? And these were her solutions, right? Just put me on drugs right away. And I decided instead to get curious about my diet. And I did some research, my own research, you know, just got on Google and I allowed myself to be curious and ask, what if? And so I changed my diet now, not drastically. I had never been a fast food eater, but I took things out like tomatoes and dairy and nightshades. And I had already been gluten free because I knew that kind of was clutter in my body. I never felt good when I ate gluten. But I changed my, my diet. And for the first three weeks, I had rheumatoid, I had rheumatoid arthritis, flares every single day. And it was so painful and my body was detoxing. But after those three weeks, I went months and months and months without a flare. And in the first five years after changing my diet, no flares. Like just, just, well, I shouldn't say no flares. Maybe one to two flares a year, which felt like no flares coming from swollen joints almost every single day. And so when I had the conversation with my husband, there's got to be something else there, I thought it might have something to do with health and well being because I knew how much better I felt when I changed my diet. And so I was under the impression, though, that I had the one and only diet that everybody should be on, that I had found the secret for all. And so thank goodness I decided to lean into some education. And so I became a functional medicine certified health coach, a national board certified health and wellness coach, and then decided to lean into, okay, I, I'm going to leave the corporate world. I'm going to become this health coach. And I started getting clients. And for some reason we were talking about health and wellness and mostly, you know, about foods and exercise and things like that. But I had started decluttering and I was sharing that with the clients. And so they would start decluttering. And the more they would declutter their physical clutter, the more they would get other positive results. Heather, I'm sleeping better. Oh, because your room is decluttered, so. Right. The bedroom is decluttered. And now they're getting better sleep. And now that they're getting better sleep, they have more energy to go exercise. Now that they have more energy to exercise, they are more, they're in a different state and they want to eat healthier. And so I just noticed that one person after the next, when they would bring in decluttering, that so much good would come from it. And so, and I want to say thank goodness. Thank goodness I got curious about clutter because my own health journey, you know, not only did I have the autoimmune conditions, but we also had toxic mold. And that, that was a multi year experience. I'm just coming out of the other end of it. I had over 100 symptoms related just to the toxic mold. We decluttered our home fully twice. The first time we did it, we thought the mold was gone. We brought more things in, and then we realized we still had mold, and we got rid of things again. And so that was the moment where I was going through my own experience, really curious about why it was hard for me to let go of things and why it seems so much easier for other people when I compared myself to my sisters who are minimalists. So I'm not a minimalist. I'm a maximalist. I'm still a maximalist, but this lighter way of living has really, really made a difference in my life and my wellbeing. And so that's kind of a peek behind the curtain on becoming a health coach. Realizing that clutter was something unique and special, and not many people were talking about it and noticing how it was lightening my own life and then deciding I just wanted to go all in on the clutter.

I love it. So let's talk about the science behind clutter. Because you said a few things, and I love the terms you're using, minimalist and Maximus and all of that. So let's talk about the science behind clutter. What is it?

All right. There's a lot.

Why do we accumulate stuff and more stuff, especially this time of year?

Yeah, yeah. Actually all year long. So there's a physiology and a psychology declutter. When you hit the Buy now button, you don't have to even be in the store in person. When you're at the cash register, or if you're hitting the buy now button on your computer, you're getting a dopamine hit. It feels so good. It's part of our biology to acquire. So it's. Here's the thing. If we think back, you know, eons and eons and eons ago, there really wasn't much. If we were acquiring things, we were staying alive. Yes, Right. If we even go back to, like, acquiring food, acquiring a safe shelter, acquiring a lover to procreate, we were continuing the species. So it's in our genetics and in our DNA that more is more. Now, what's interesting is if you look at some of the latest research, you can actually define that more is not more, that more can be less. And so this is a fun study. They took two groups of people and. Or one group of people split them in two. Half the group worked in a messy office, half the group worked in a clean office. And as an incentive, they were offered an apple or a candy bar upon leaving. The work that they were doing was irrelevant. Did not matter. What mattered was what were they going to choose? If you worked in a clean office, you were twice, twice as likely, two times as likely to choose the apple over the candy bar. So our surroundings influence our decision making. That's what the research says. Our surroundings influence our psychology. What are we going to do next? Right. Also, our surroundings impact our physiology. So this was some ethnographic research that was done in California. And they took saliva samples of people. And when these people were talking about their home, they got really curious about what the stress hormone cortisol was doing as people were describing the state of their home. So if the home was calm and clean, you can imagine that the cortisol was not doing anything dramatic. Right. The home was in the middle of a renovation. If there was clutter everywhere, the cortisol was going through the roof. And that also was connected to feelings of depression, anxiety that the participants were sharing with the interviewers as well. So again, clutter, it impacts our psychology, it impacts our physiology. And I do want to say this, though. There's nothing wrong about clutter. Clutter is neutral. It does not make us immoral. We don't have to declutter. However, if we do, we will feel lighter, both from a psychological perspective and a physiology perspective.

So it's fascinating. You know, I have one daughter and three sons, and my daughter was a little piggy when she was younger. She had stuff everywhere. And I don't even know where I pulled this. I don't know if it came from my family or what. But I used to tell her, your environment is a reflection of your inner world and you must be feeling chaotic inside because it's like a little hurricane or a tornado came through here. And it took her, you know, that this was when she was 15ish, 16. Now at 28, she is like super clutter free, very organized and clean. And she said, I can't stand clutter. And she said, mom, you were totally right. Like, I had so, so much anxiety and, you know, trying to fit into the girls clubs and all the things. And she said it was a total reflection of what was going on inside of me. So I, I said something that actually, you know, made sense to her as an older young woman. And now she looks back, she's like, oh, totally. So can you talk a little bit about that? And then can you spend just a moment defining the difference between clutter, physical clutter, mental emotional clutter, spiritual clutter. It's the first time I've heard that word before. Spiritual clutter. And how that shows up for somebody.

Absolutely. Actually, let's start there, and then we'll backtrack. Okay.

Okay.

So I like to define clutter as any thought or thing that gets between where you are and where you want to be. So at school, Living Letter, we look at mind clutter, body clutter, and home clutter. So the mind clutter is a thought like, oh, my gosh, I should have started decluttering years ago. You're arguing with the past. It's not useful. It's not helpful. It's just a clutter, a cluttered thought that's designed to slow you down. Mind clutter can also look like resentment. It can look like frustration without a plan, just sitting there kind of in a victim status that's cluttering up your potential. We have the body clutter. So for me, toxic mold, Right. I was breathing in mold without even realizing it. You couldn't see it anywhere. Yeah, I was breathing it in. It was making me sick. Now, mold only impacts 24% of the population. So mold was not clutter. Actually, for my husband, he didn't get sick at all. Right. But those are, you know, what is for body clutter? It's any kind of input that is giving you a symptom that's not allowing you to feel your best. The home clutter, of course, is the uncomfortable amount of stuff that we see, Right. The countertops that have piles and piles of paper, the closets where you can, like, barely cloak or pull out, you know, the shirt you want to wear. That's the physical clutter. And so those are the types of things that will. Will block us from really living a life that's true to the person we want to be. So spiritual clutter, this can show up for so many of us. And the way I want to explain this is through a short story. So Bronnie Ware is a palliative care nurse in Australia. And for 20 years, she. She sat with people in their final moments, and she listened and she listened. And afterwards, she wrote an essay that went viral, and it's called the Top five Regrets of the Dying. And the number one regret was that I did not live a life that was true to me. I did not live a life that was true to me. And so so many people are showing up for others, like when I went to corporate, and, you know, it was the right thing at that time, but 20 years there, maybe not the right. Right. And so when we are doing things for other people, showing up for other people when we're not tuning in and Asking ourselves, what matters most to me? What can I do? What can I explore? How can I be courageous and curious about my life and what I am, what I am sharing with the world, my unique gifts. When we don't do that, we are blocking ourselves spiritually. I believe there are many bridges to the spiritual realm. Religion is one. Sometimes, you know, some people will have religious clutter. Maybe they were raised a certain religion that just wasn't a right fit for them, and they then go on to find the right religion for them, or maybe no religion, and it's something different. And so, really, to me, spiritual clutter, again, is just. It's showing up for other people and not allowing yourself to lean in and get really honest with yourself about who you are and what matters most to you.

Yeah.

And when we do that, when we allow ourselves to do that, it might feel risky, it might feel scary, because you're leaning into the unknown. And the primitive brain does not like discomfort. It likes certainty. But when we give ourselves permission to do that, to really get to know ourselves, well, then we show up in a way where we can truly shine our light, brighter and bolder than ever before. Like, it's the pure light of who we are. And that is the gift that I want every human being to experience. Right. Who you really, truly are. And sometimes people come to me and say, heather, I don't know who I am.

Right.

And it's because there's a lot of spiritual clutter kind of blocking. Blocking them from seeing that. But it's always possible to figure it out.

Well, and I think that's true. I think it's more than likely than not that most of us were raised with parents who, you know, gave us these messages. Don't cry, or I'll give you something to cry about. Right. Shut down your emotions. No pain, no gain. Like. Like, plow on through. Right. And we really. You know, I. You know, I know I grew up in an era where. What do you mean connecting with my body? What does that mean? Right. What do you mean trying to figure out what brings me joy, what lights me up. Right. I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. What's. What's appropriate, Right? Yes. And then in the meantime, there's this disconnect inside and this energy that's really wanting to come out. Because I believe we're all here for a reason. We all have a purpose, and we're all meant to shine our light. And we get weighed down. And I think part of what we get weighed down with Is this clutter that you're talking about?

Yes. And. And just to add to that. So I too, believe that we all are here to shine our lights and that we're here for a reason. Now, anything that gets in the way of you trusting in yourself and in that idea, I think of as spiritual clutter. Okay, So I had an experience years ago where I was woken in the middle of the night. And the word trust, it was a very deep voice. And the word trust went through every single cell of my body. And when this happened, you know, I had been sleeping and dreaming this happened. It shook me out of the dream. And what I saw in that. What I saw in that moment. So out of the dream was. I was out in the stars and the galaxies and. And feeling that word trust and feeling this oneness that was so powerful. And I think about it now, it gives me goosebumps. It's one of the most powerful experiences of my life. And. And I said the word trust out loud, opened my eyes, looked at the clock. It was one in the morning. And that word, saying that word trust out loud brought me back into my home, into my bedroom, into my bed. And I realized at that moment that we all have that available to us. Every human being, every being, any animal, bird, whatever you. It, we all can trust. And that's. Again, that's available. It's optional. And so anything getting in the way of that trust is. Is that spiritual clutter?

Yeah. No. That's amazing and brilliant and so spot on with my experiences as well.

Yeah.

Okay, so I'm going to out myself here. I have. I have two places where I have clutter in my life. One is I love buying books. I probably have, I don't know, a thousand books. And it's like, well, I just might need to read that again one day. Right? So that's one. And the other one is I go to a ton of conferences. You get these gift bags, and I come home with all these supplements that I personally. Right. I've got. I've got the plant stem cells. So that's really my. That's my jam. And it's like. But it's unopened, and somebody took the time to give this to me. So I have the graveyard of unopened supplements, Right. That I won't personally take, but I can't bring myself to let it go. So help me understand what's going on with me.

Okay. Number one, you are very human. You are so human, and you are operating more out of your biology than really operating intention. And I want you to know, I see you. I did the same. I did the same. I would go to these events, come home with so many supplements, and then never use them. Now, number one, we don't want to shame ourselves for the past because that just creates more clutter. And that's, that's not necessary. So, number one, we look at what we've done and we say, we're going to learn from this. We're going to learn from this so that we can create lightness in our present moment and in our future. So the way we learn from this is we decide we either get to live by design or by default. So you being curious right now, that is design. That is wonderful. Now, the next event you go to, because I know you're going to be going to mini. You decide ahead of time, am I going to bring these things home? Now, if I bring them home, you can decide. I'm only going to bring them home if I can honor them and use them. If I'm not going to honor them and use them, then I am going to politely decline these things and honor the person who created them in the first place and know that they will go to people who actually really will use them. So you decide ahead of time. You create this container ahead of time, and that way it makes it really easy. When you're in the moment, you already know what you're going to do, so.

You already have a boundary and you can just say, no, thank you. Thank you for. For offering. And not. Not so just not getting the gift bag in the first place.

Exactly. Not taking it. Sometimes they'll see. Sometimes they won't even know whether you're taking it or not. And so. And if you're like, oh, gosh, I don't want it to be awkward if they're gonna, you know, if you're gonna have a conversation, know that that thought is clutter as well. That's mine. Clutter. What you're choosing to do is neutral. And here's the please are in you is that you don't wanna hurt somebody's feelings by saying no, thank you. Of course, assuming, assuming that they would rather you be dishonest and take it and not use it, then say no, thank you so that they can actually give it to somebody who really does want it.

Right?

So, right. We, so we, we just.

We make up stories, right, Based on where our headspace is.

Exactly. So, and here's what, regardless of what the clutter is, whether it's supplements or anything, for anybody, where we can Make a bigger difference for our planet is in what we choose to do in the future. So what we've done in the past has already been done. So a lot of people say, oh, my gosh, our landfills are filling up. Yes, that's true. They are filling up with clutter and with a lot of clothing, a lot of food. So, you know, all the fast fashion, fast furniture, fast food, all of that. What makes a bigger difference is not what has happened in the past, how you choose to move forward. So how do you want to move forward? When you go to the next event and you see something, you know you're not going to use it, what feels right and light to you?

Yeah. To be able to say, no, thank you.

Yeah. And easy ways to say, oh, my gosh, I love what you're doing. I'm at capacity right now. My suitcase has no more room. But I would love to share what you're doing, you know, with my world. Or I would love to connect further and talk more about what you're doing, you know, so you can, you can.

Always, you find a way to honor the person with what they're gifting and then still be able to honor yourself, to not take on more.

I am at capacity, and I want you to know I love what you're doing. I love what you're doing. Because then the emphasis is on the second part of the sentence, right? I love what you're doing. And did you notice I didn't say the word but? Usually the word but is clutter. So. So instead of saying, I love what you're doing, but I'm at capacity. Well, that just feels heavy, right. For everybody and our sentences, right. They can have, they have an energetic vibration that, that can create clutter. So, so instead of saying, I love what you're doing, but I'm at capacity. Right. The but negates what they. What, you know, when you say I love doing instead, it's, yes, I. I'm at capacity, and I really love what you're doing. Can we talk more about that? And then you, you, you might learn something new that that brings even additional lightness to your life.

I love that.

Yeah. Yeah. Can we go back to your daughter also? You know, you just, you said you added your, you know, you're going to out yourself. Well, and you brought your daughter up also. And here's a thought that I have, right? You know, she was cluttered in her teen years, and now as a young adult in her later 20s, she's really, she's neat. And so the visual cortex really wants us to be neat as well, because when there's stuff everywhere, it's really hard to concentrate. Now, teenagers think about what's going on in their brain right, in those teenage years. And so without judgment, it's really neutral for cleanliness or neatness to not be, like, their top priority. And sometimes there's stuff, like, they don't even see it the way we see it. And until their brain is fully formed and they have that full, like, prefrontal cortex, you know, they don't really see what we see. So in my house, like, if there are, like, random socks, I feel those, and, you know, then there's changes to my physiology. Right. I feel that they don't quite notice it as much. But I also want to say, sometimes people ask me, heather, can kids clutter, declutter? And the answer is absolutely, yes, they can. And here's one example. When we were going through the toxic mold, my kids were pretty young. They were in grade school. And I said, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, you guys. Like, we gotta throw out everything. All the paper, everything. And I thought that they were gonna be heartbroken over this. And they looked at me and they said, mom, we'd rather have a healthy mom than have this ra. Like these random drawings that we did that we don't even care about. So often what I see in adults is that they will put so much meaning into their kids artwork, and the kids don't even care. Right. They don't even care. And so that's permission that, number one, your kids can declutter. And number two, you don't have to keep every single piece of artwork that your kids ever made. If those things are feeling heavy, it's permission to let them go that they are in. Declutter.

I love it.

Yeah.

So kids can declutter as well.

Exactly. Exactly. And then books.

Yeah. Let's talk about the books.

Okay. I love the books, too. I love the books. So what we want to do, Maybe your books aren't clutter. Maybe they're not clutter. Only, you know, do the books feel light or heavy? If there's any little bit of heaviness there, then, yes, there's some clutter in your book collection. But I have a feeling that some of those books aren't clutter. So here's what we do, what humans do. We will collect books, and we will weave in stories about our identity into those books. So books for adults become the same thing. Trophies are for kids. Right. Kids will keep all their Trophies. Look at my trophies. I'm a good soccer player or a swimmer or won the spelling bee. Well, adults, maybe those trophies are kind of stored away somewhere or thrown out, and we pivot that story. I'm an interesting human being, or I'm a worthy human being, or I'm a special human being into the books. And this is exactly what I did. So when I was decluttering and going through the mold, and mold likes books, and I was getting rid of the books, I was like, why is this so hard? And then I realized, oh, my gosh, my books have served as my trophies. Look at me. See, I'm interesting, and I'm curious. Okay, so does that hit home or not for you?

Yeah, I mean, for some, for sure. And then for others, you know, it's more like, oh, I read something, and I want to learn more. So I will get a book to do the research. Then it's a matter of why, after I've read it, do I want to hold on to it? And that's where that. To me, that's where the clutter comes in. Because it's like, well, just in case, I may need to go back and reference that. Right.

Well, that's so. So maybe and maybe not. And so you get to ask yourself, could I find that reference anywhere else? Could I go online and get the same information?

Right.

And if you could go online and get same information, there's. There's another question you might want to ask yourself. You know, if the book still represents the season of life you're in and the season of life that. Where, you know the person you're becoming, it may not be clutter, but if there's a book that no longer represents the season of life you're in, like, if you have any old corporate books, you know, or college books, then that's that.

That I finally was able to say, okay, I will not be doing Six Sigma anymore. I can. Old GE books and, you know, old company books.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you just have an honest conversation again with yourself. Does this represent the person I'm becoming? And is this information not available anywhere else? If so, you keep it.

All right, I have one last question. What is the definition between hoarding and lots of clutter?

Yeah, right. Like, there's a continuum there. So I would say, all right, there might be a formal definition out there. So, you know, anybody watching or listening look for that formal definition, because I'm sure that there. There is. So with somebody who identifies as a hoarder or has been diagnosed with Hoarding. That person absolutely wants to make sure that they have a psychologist on their team. Now, also on their team could be a coach that can help them think about the clutter in different ways as well. But if you've been diagnosed, then you want to work with a psychologist. Now, in my programs, I would say probably 15% of people do diagnose themselves as hoarders, yet they still love the program because of how we think about clutter, and because also, I remind people often that clutter is neutral. It does not make you a bad person. And sometimes somebody with a diagnosis feels judged by society, feels shamed.

I think there's a lot of shame there, right?

Yes. Yes. Something's wrong with me. No, nothing is wrong with you. This is neutral, and it's also optional. And so you want to get to the root cause of the clutter. So whether you are a hoarder or not, if you've got excess stuff and it's weighing on you and you want to do something about it, you want to get to the root cause of the clutter. So one of my favorite tools in doing that is to write yourself a letter from clutter. So it goes like this, right? Dear Jen, I am clutter, and this is what I want you to know. And then you just put pen or pencil to paper, and you see what flows out. Some people write three sentences. Some people write three pages, single space. And they get so much out of that letter. They get compassion and love. Clutter is a symptom, and all of us have experienced some kind of trauma, whether it's little T, big T, we've experienced something, and so clutter is a symptom. So in that letter, there is always compassion for why the clutter is there, the role it was playing, and there's always permission to let it go in a new way that feels light and right. So for anybody, you want to get to the root cause of the clutter, and also for anybody, if you're diagnosed as a hoarder or a collector or just with a lot of stuff, before you begin decluttering, what you want to do is make sure that your nervous system is regulated. So anybody who is decluttering because they feel like, oh, I'm so embarrassed. I should do this, I have to do this. But I really feel horrible right now. It's going to feel like you're taking one step forward, two steps back.

Yeah, I was just going to say that it will be really difficult to get out of it at that point, right?

Yes. If you can. Yeah. If you can regulate the nervous system, and there are so many easy ways to do that, you can go outside, even going outside, getting a fresh breath of air can help regulate the nervous system. But if you do that, and if you can do that for two minutes, what the research say, there are brain scans that will say that after two minutes of regulation, the thoughts that you have will be more empowering than if you don't regulate. So if you don't regulate, you're going to be like, oh, I should have done this years ago. I'm so embarrassed. Something's wrong with me. But if you do regulate, the thoughts are one small step at a time. You, you know, I'm free to feel okay and neutral about this clutter. I'm free to have compassion for myself. That's where the, that's where the magic happens. So get to the root of your clutter, regulate your nervous system and, and then take it from there.

And so where can people find you? I know you've got a wonderful membership and program, so share more about where folks can find you.

Yeah, I've got a lot of great information on the website, so. Schooloflivinglighter.com A lot of free resources. We've got a great membership, the Living Lighter Experience. Thousands of people have gone through that program now, and it is just an amazing, loving, fun community where clutter is neutral and everyone feels welcome. It's a very inclusive. It's global and there's no judgment, judgment free zone. So we have so much fun there. The website is the best place, place you can also go to YouTube, YouTube and Instagram and all the socials as well. So.

And we'll put all that in our show notes as well.

Awesome.

Well, thank you so much. Very enlightening conversation. And that's what I'm going to be doing over the holidays. I'm going to be weaving in fun and rest and decluttering.

And one, one more thought for you, since you're going to be weaving this in over the holidays, is that you said fun and rest and decluttering. I want you to know that the decluttering, when done intentionally, can fall into the fun zone as well. Because remember that dopamine hit you get when you buy something. Yes. Once you start decluttering and when you acknowledge your progress and see it, you're getting another dopamine hit. So you're just swapping one dopamine hit for another. I love it.

Yeah, I remember when, like, eventually I would say, all right, Katie, you need to clean up your room. She would literally, like, turn on music.

Yes.

And she would have, like, old costumes and she would come out with her old costumes and she would pose and, you know, it's like, well, I'm guessing getting rid of this, my skirt's too short. Right. So she, you know, she really, our kids are our greatest teacher. So she would teach me like, mom, this is actually fun. I don't mind doing this. So thank you for that beautiful reminder.

Oh, my pleasure. And thank you so much for having me and having this conversation. I really want the entire world to know that they can live lighter, that the clutter is optional. It's a distraction. And that we really can live a life that's true. True to the beautiful people who we are.

I love that. Thank you so much, Heather.

Thank you.