Rocket Fuel Co-Author Mark C Winters Explains How Visionaries Can Find Their Integrators

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All right, welcome back to the show. This is Brad Costanzo and today I am going to interview a co author of one of my favorite business books. Before I do that and get into it, let me thank every longtime subscriber. Welcome the brand new ones. By the way, hit the subscribe button if you stumbled across this in itunes or jump on my newsletter@baconratbusiness.com Speaking of business books, what of the cool things that I've been doing recently? If you've listened to some past episodes is asking you, my listeners, to send in some of your favorite business books. And I ask you to do that by sending me an email to ask bradakenrapbusiness.com what's been funny about this. I get a lot of great recommendations from you guys but I've recently got like 3 or 4 people recommend this book called Rocket Fuel. And it just so happens that the co author of the book Rocket Fuel is my guest on the show today. His name is Mark C. Winters. And what's so cool about this book is it's the essence of it, I guess is the relationship and the importance of the relationship between the visionary entrepreneur and the integrator. And sometimes that's the CEO. It's almost always the founder who's a visionary. And the integrator is usually the operations manager, the person who just gets shit done done. And I know that personally I'm a visionary and I have a hard time executing and implementing sometimes because it's just not my natural thing. When I have partnered up and worked with integrators, it's made a huge difference. And I've also seen this with.

Some of my friends, some of my clients, those who have the visionary integrator relationship and role in their business. What happens is it works like rocket fuel. And Mark's going to explain all of that here in a moment. Let me explain a little bit more about Mark. He's got over 25 years of entrepreneurial leadership experience and he delivers at very high levels. I mean his experience in companies ranges from multi billion dollar global enterprises like Procter and Gamble, British Petroleum to raw startups that were originally drawn on a Napkin. And this diverse background enables him to identify and apply patterns of success for virtually any business. So he's teamed up with Gino Wickman, who is the author of the book Traction, and together they've come out and co authored. ROC cannot recommend this book highly enough. There will be a link in the show notes to it. And I have just been looking so forward to talking to Mark. And by the way, I've already talked to him. So I'm doing this introduction after the actual interview. And I can tell you it's amazing. You're going to want to listen closely because especially if you are a visionary type person looking for an integrator, he's going to talk about different ways to find them and what he's doing to cultivate a pool of them. And he's also going to address the integrators out there, the people who they may not have all the best ideas, they may not be add squirrels like myself, but they get stuff done. And it just so happens that they're the precious gem in the entire equation. So no matter who you are or what profile you kind of fit, you're going to want to pay close attention to this. So without any further ado, let me switch over to Mark Winters, the author of Rocket Fuel, and jump to the interview right now.

All right, Mark, are you with me?

I'm with you.

All right. It's great to talk to you and finally meet you in person.

Absolutely. I've been looking forward to this.

Yeah, I have, too. I have recommended the book Rocket Fuel in My Mastermind to everybody multiple times. I've recommended it to friends I've recommended on the podcast. I know. And I remember when I read it being like, holy crap, this guy's reading my mind. And so it's been. And by the way, it is the topic of it, which I kind of discussed a little bit in the introduction, and is probably the single biggest topic of conversation or challenge or request that entrepreneurs that I run in the circles I run with have. Because most of my entrepreneurial friends are visionaries as opposed to integrators. We can talk a little bit more about what that means. But everybody, everybody's like, I just wish I could find, like, clone me or find a chief operating officer or somebody to execute on my ideas. And it's probably the holy grail, the number one thing that I know, myself and other people I know who have abundant ideas and plans are trying to solve. So that's Hot topic.

Love hearing that. It's sizzling.

It's sizzling. I have a feeling, by the way, that most of my listeners are visionaries. But in a moment, I want to tell you where people can go. I want you to tell them where people can go to kind of find out what they are. But let's dive into this kind of what Give us the core, what the book is about. What is rocket fuel?

So rocket fuel is really about the combination of two types of leaders in an entrepreneurial company. One we call the visionary, which is the one you're talking about, which people are probably more familiar with, which is the idea generator, the one that's just always coming up with new stuff. Some of it may be crazy stuff, but lots of new stuff. And really the moonshot ideas come from the person that energizes that part of the leadership. But then there's this other complementary type of leader that we call an integrator. And the integrator is much more execution. Get it done, make it happen, focused, and has a whole set of skills that's really different than the ones that we typically find in the natural entrepreneurial vision. So when you put those two together, that's the combination that we call rocket fuel. And when a company can bring those two together, make them work in a way that maximizes the combination, it's really effective at taking that business, taking that company to a whole other level.

You're absolutely right. And I can think about friends, clients, people who have that relationship in there, and their businesses are always doing so much better. And you can notice it when they get that person in, everything changes. And it was funny, my close friend, client Kent, who I was directing the marketing for his business for a couple years, and during that time, he brought in his integrator, his operations guy, his president, I guess, to his CEO. And it was funny when I was reading your book, because I'm reading this going, oh, my gosh, this is Kent and Jerry, 100%. And that's obviously why it works so well. Kent comes up with all the ideas. Jerry tells him that 80% of them they're not going to do, and the other ones are going to do it the way Jerry wants to. That made so much sense when you said in the book that.

Oftentimes people think of the visionary, the CEO, as the leader and the main guy in charge. But you mentioned that to operate effectively, and once you have that integrator on your team, in many ways, the integrator becomes the boss. They have the final veto on the visionary's ideas.

Yeah, they really, you know, we call them the integrator because they're pulling all these pieces together in a way that's going to make them happen, consistent with the vision of the company. Right. That they have formed together in concert with the visionary. So, you know, instead of trying to say, you know, this one's in charge of that one, you know, really think of it. It's like a Vulcan mind meld between those two. So the visionary and the integrator really have to work at being 100% on the same page. And there's a structure to help them make that happen. But the more they can do that and really get in sync, then it's a very freeing thing for the visionary to know that, wow, all I have to do is kind of feed the good idea energy in there and then I can kind of step back and let the integrator take it from there. And if they'll trust enough and let go and let that happen, it can be extremely powerful.

Right, and you say that in the book that. Well, correct me if I'm wrong.

The integrator is a rarer bird than the visionary. There's less integrators out there. Is that correct?

Yeah. So there it turns out, the scarce commodity in the equation. And if you think of it, there's actually about a 4 to 1 ratio we find between visionaries and integrators. So, you know, if you've got.

It feels like it in my life.

I mean, so you visionaries, you want one. And the guidance we give to the folks that we talk to and the folks we work with is, you better get on your horse and go find them. Don't wait. Because at some point.

There'S not going to be enough left to go around because the 4 to 1 actually becomes more scarce because they're not all the same. So we talk about a two piece puzzle. So if you can imagine me kind of holding my fingers extended from both hands and fitting them together like a puzzle piece. Each visionary has a unique shape to their edge, if you will. And they're looking for the integrator that has a complementary shape that when they fit the two together, it just covers all the things that need to be covered by that combination by that duo. They may double up on some things, so they may both be strong in the same area on some things, but we just can't have any gaps between the two. Where the visionary and the integrator, between the two of them, they need to cover it. All right?

And I know that in the past I've had multiple partnerships and, and I know I was guilty of this. And I love for you to confirm that. This is pretty common, that when leaders or entrepreneurs partner up and they, they end up finding somebody who's exactly like them as opposed to the opposite. And because we, like I love other visionaries, we have so much fun. Brainstorming ideas doesn't get done right. So do you find that that's kind of one of the bigger problems with.

Leadership teams is that there's too much overlap in personality types?

Sure, it's absolutely a trap. And as humans, we're naturally drawn towards folks that are very much like us and think like us, and it kind of mirrors us. It's kind of like, oh, that feels good. But there's this other set of capabilities and skills and just wiring and how they see the world that's not like us. And sometimes it's actually a little bit painful to interact with them, but that's where the power is. It's that friction.

That blends into something really powerful. We had one company that we worked with that when they were searching for their integrator, they knew what they were looking for, they knew what they needed. They actually had partnered with a profiling company to help them find that ideal integrator. What was interesting in talking to Mark at the end of the process, he said, you know, we didn't like the guy, and we sat there and we interviewed him, and there's no way that if we hadn't had sort of the objective profile information to back up and give us a sort of an emotion free view of what we were looking for, there's no way we would have hired the guy. But we knew that and going in, and so we knew it would kind of feel like that and go that way. So that was more validation of that is what they need than taking them away from somebody that they would have missed on otherwise.

Yeah.

That'S powerful. And I can see that that.

Can be a challenge because.

You want to put the square peg in the square hole and you want to make sure that you know what that square hole, the dimensions are. Right. So like objective profiling, you talk about coming up with what are the exact qualities, characteristics, skill sets, et cetera, that that person needs to have in order to fill that role, as opposed to just trying to go find a person and then shove them in that role.

Right.

So what about, by the way. So I've got a couple questions here. This comes from friends and listeners, and this is actually from a future guest on the show named Matt Gallant, who I posted on my Facebook that who's read the book? You have any questions, I'm going to be interviewing you. So Matt said, and I'm actually interviewing Matt in about a week. But he said, love that book. Couple questions. One, what is his process, including talent pools that he uses to hire integrators?

Oh boy.

Sorry about that.

No worries.

So that's, that's a great question. So there's actually a, a process that we outline in the book that's called the visionary integrator connection process. And it really walks you through this step by step. I think there's seven steps. And the interesting takeaway that I would want to focus on for that, Brad, is it really starts by understanding yourself as a visionary and your company. Okay. So the first step is this thing we call the visionary spectrum where different types of businesses, it turns out, need different amounts of vision or visionary energy, if you will. Right? Yes. So think about a high tech business where man, the world is just moving a million miles an hour. The players are changing, the landscape's changing, it's just always different all the time. So the vision it requires to see down the road on that, think of a Steve Jobs kind of a profile versus something that's just much more static and established and not moving. So it's just the same and always the same. Think of maybe hanging drywall or building storage units or something like that. They're fine businesses, but they just don't change nearly as fast as the others. You can get away with a lot less vision. So you got to understand first what does the company need? And then from there you got to understand yourself as a visionary. So, you know, what do you look like? We talked about that two piece puzzle and that shape of that edge. So you've got to look at yourself, you know, understanding your own profile is a part of that. We talk about a process we call a wish list, where you basically sit down and you kind of pour out on paper all the stuff that you would wish an integrator would come in and take off your plate or make go away or make it so you don't have to do that stuff anymore. Right. And so getting that out there on the table so you understand, wow, these are the gaps that we need to fill in. These are the capabilities that we need to bring into the mix. And then flipping that around and looking at the, you know, the profile that you seek, defining that in a way, and this is where you can do some of this yourself. We have in the book, we have an integrator job description that lays out a great place to start. You can work with other folks that are experts in the profiling space that can help you look, from looking at that kind of map out, these are the kind of results that we would tend to see that would match up well with that. So you bring that all together, and then the next question you got to figure out is, are you ready? And so we've got a set of four readiness factors that sort of force you to confront the reality of are you really ready to make a move like this and really ready to pull the trigger on something like this? Whether it's from a financial perspective, the investment that's going to be required, a psychological perspective, Are you really ready to let go of some of the big meaningful things that you're going to need to let go of or have identified with for a while? Are you at a point in your lifestyle where you're ready to maybe work a little bit less or spend the long hours you're working working on things that are more fun, or are you really ready to just get to spend more time in your unique ability? So those things come together to kind of paint a picture of just how ready you are. And the big. The big point there, Brad, is we don't want you to start the process if you're not really ready. Right.

That makes sense. Yeah.

You get into it and you'll make a false start. It'll just. You won't follow through, you won't finish. So that's going to be frustrating for you and everybody. So once you understand yourself, you understand what you're looking for, you know that you're really ready, then it's time to begin that search. So I think this really gets to Matt's question, which is, all right, first step is you put the word out, right? So you put the word out and let your network know that, hey, here's what I'm looking for. Here's the stage I'm at, here's the kind of the description or profile, and just put that signal out into the world. That's a real obvious way. And many of our visionaries have found their integrators from doing that. I mean, that's been a really effective path. From there, you move into, do you want to engage some kind of review? There are more and more recruiters that are starting to specialize in this specific kind of role. So they're really dialing into what it takes to be a great integrator, where they are, how to find them, how to bring them in. We talked about them Being a scarce commodity. One of the things that we're seeing, and we believe more and more is that there are great integrators sort of hiding out in corporate America. And they're in Cube City and they're wondering why they feel kind of fringe in the traditional big corporate machine. And the reason is because they're just entrepreneurial enough to not fit great into that. But maybe they're not so entrepreneurial that they'd be off starting their own thing. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And it's actually one of the ones I can picture as well in some of the relationships that I know to where it was like, you know. And so, for instance, I've used the example of Kent and Jerry.

In the past, you know, a few minutes ago, and it was funny. So Jerry was like one of the. He was like one of the heads of sales or sales managers, something like this that I think it was Oracle and making a lot of money. And then Kent happens to be his best friend. Childhood friend, yeah. And he just. But he just so happened to have those skills. So when he came over.

It was.

Really funny because as a salesperson, that's a very entrepreneurial type role. You have to be entrepreneurial. You eat what you kill and you get out there and you hustle. It was kind of interesting to see him walk away from a really cherry corporate position, but in a big corporation and come to a smaller business. But he's been able to have a much bigger impact there. And he is entrepreneurial, but he doesn't have the same big ideas as Kent does. And that's why it works so well.

Yeah, it's just this really interesting blend of psychology and capability that lets them work together. They get each other enough, but they're different enough that it sort of covers all the bases and creates this really powerful combo.

Absolutely. Now, you mentioned that a lot of them are hiding in corporate America, and I kind of found that to be true. In my career. I have not done a lot of hiring personally outside of freelancers, contractors, and outsourcing. So I've not personally built a big organization myself. I don't know if I ever actually want to build a big organization with a ton of employees. That's just not necessarily one of my criteria for an easy life. That being said.

I do know that some of my clients and some of my friends have found that exact same thing where the best people for the job usually already have a job and they recruit from companies that are already existing. Have you found that? That seems to be a little bit more going out and hiring people that have jobs already a little bit more.

Fruitful of a search than just so. I mean, I think in the recruiting industry, they would probably tell you that's a truism.

That's kind of who they look for. So these specialty firms that I was mentioning before, I think that's really one of their key capabilities and expertise is the ability. How do you engage somebody like that? Right. Because it's a different kind of approach. And if you're not experienced in that, you're not going to be able to cover very much ground very fast. Where somebody who sort of has a machine built up can cover a lot of ground, talk to a lot of people to really help narrow that pool down to the folks that are likely to be the best fit for what you're looking for.

Right.

And sure, I mean, if there's somebody great who's out there in a market that you're just not interacting with naturally, normally, and they're gainfully employed, but if we can engage that conversation, that sort of lights the spark that says, wow, yeah, that would be really cool to be a part of something like that. And what the. The thing that lures them over, the thing that attracts them is, you hit on it. It's the opportunity to have this big meaningful impact. Right. And they don't see that where they are. They see themselves as a small part of something. They're not really sure how they make a difference. But now in this world, in the entrepreneur's world, all of a sudden, it's much more clear. And the fact that they. The idea that they could sort of be fed great ideas from this visionary counterpart and just go do what they do and do what they're wired to do, they love it and they just go. They make it happen and they're ready for the next one. Bring it on. Let's go do it.

Nice. Have you found that integrators, like really good integrators, are typically found in certain types of job roles before they kind of maybe find their sweet spot as the integrator of a bigger company. Have you found that, aside from current chief operating officers, have you found that there's any.

I don't know, like, pools of people who are. I'll just use this an example. Engineers who are out there, a lot of engineers, they end up going back to get their MBA because they realize that in order to really ascend in a company, they kind of need to have the business side along with the engineering. And as an Engineer, you have to be be very process oriented and very detailed. So are there any professions like that that tend to attract more integrator personalities than others?

Yeah, so I want to be careful not to make too broad a generality here because the reality is we see them come from all different kinds of places and so they really do. It's just the think about it as the engineer or the accountant that has this bit of a twist of personality and communication and entrepreneurial bent that allows them to fit in and make it work. Or coming from the other end, somebody who's in more of a sales and marketing field who they've got the creativity but they're more process oriented so they're more grounded in detail and process and execution. And that's really the theme regardless of, of.

Which type of a function or profession they're coming from. If they've got that foundation around execution and making it happen and being able to push through detail oriented things, timelines, communicate and relate with lots of different types of people and pull it all together, that's the common thread. Much more than which profession they come from, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And it's like, yeah, you're right, I've found people that typically have gotten out like they're entrepreneurial, Internet based marketers and you would never think.

That'S actually a very kind of a visionary role. People who just kind of get out there, they put themselves out front. And then I found some that are.

Amazing behind the scenes, they just get stuff done. Those are the types of people I've always been looking for for. I know that just earlier today you and I are mentioning Stiletto Coffee, the real world business that I'm running. And one of the issues is recently my social media content manager.

She got a better opportunity, she went off and did some other stuff. So kind of back to a much smaller team now. But I remember thinking that, okay, I've got all these ideas on what needs to happen and just the thought of sitting down and having to personally chunk them out is so excruciating to me. I just remember thinking I just want somebody. Listeners pay attention. I just want somebody who kind of gets it. I don't have to go.

Who has some understanding of marketing or knowledge, even if it's somewhat rudimentary, but just loves to execute and implement. I could be so much better because it's just a weird feeling. I can get things done, I know it, but it's just that I feel stifled when I have to actually execute on My ideas. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. And so I was hoping we'd kind of get back to this point. We talked about the impact that, that the combination can have on the business. And man, the impact it can have on the visionary is as dramatic, if not more dramatic. And we think about that as freedom, right? Yeah. So entrepreneurs, we start a business, we make that leap. We've got this idea of having this kind of freedom that we want, whether it's freedom, time, freedom, money freedom, the freedom to spend time with the folks we want, or have the kind of impact that's meaningful to us, whichever kind of freedom it is. So many entrepreneurs kind of find themselves fast forward 12 months, 2 years, whatever, and they look at the life they're in and it looks nothing like that. They're trapped. They're working harder than they ever have, probably making less per hour than they ever had. They're having to deal with people they're forced to deal with that they may not like, and they just don't feel like they're making a difference. And so all of a sudden, enter the integrator. And we get that visionary integrator combination going and the world just changes. Now all of a sudden, not only is the business able to take off and do the things that they had envisioned it doing, but they're able to spend their time doing the stuff they love with the people they love. They're able to get control of their time so they can spend it in the way that's meaningful for them. Right. And the money, I mean, just the energy, everything changes. And once they get a taste of that, and I mean, I'm hearing a little bit of it just in what the story you told. You get a taste of that, man, the idea of going back is just painful.

Yeah. And you know, honestly, that's one of the things that I like so much, love so much about being a consultant, is that I get to share ideas, strategies, game plans and roadmaps with my clients. And either they and their team execute it, or I occasionally will. Like, I have a million resources, so we'll bring in one of my resources to do it. And it allows me to thrive in the ideation mode, in the creativity mode, and in the relationship building mode, which is a visionary is where I'm the strongest at. And although.

Just Stiletto Coffee or any of the businesses that I've had and run in the past, I find myself just getting bogged down in the, the necessary evils of running a business.

It's taken me a while in my career to kind of come to that point where it's like, really know what you're good at, really know what you like and what you hate and find a way not to do those things that you hate anymore. Way easier said than done. Yeah, but I do like the guidebook. Like the. This is the first time I've seen a real good framework to actually making that happen.

Yeah, that's the power play, right. Is if you can focus on doing what you do best and have somebody that you're connected with that can pick up the rest and is great at it. That was a big sort of discovery for me, Brad, is these things that I would hate doing. I'm capable of doing a lot of stuff, but it doesn't mean I enjoy it. So cranking out the detailed things, having to follow, follow up on timelines, all that stuff, that's not my.

And if you don't enjoy it, you won't do as good at it.

For sure. For sure. And the big aha for me was that as much as I hated or probably despised some of those things, there are actually people in the world who love doing that stuff. And that was. I mean, it never dawned on me, but it's true. So another way to think about it is if you keep keeping that stuff to yourself, you're sort of depriving someone else the opportunity to exercise their gift.

Yeah, that is a great way to think about that as well. Kind of extra motivation, by the way, once more, anybody listening to this, if he is talking about you, send an email to askbradaconratbusiness.com that's all I had to say about that. But I'm serious, because I am always.

My biggest successes in business have been through either partnerships.

Real partnerships, where we're sharing in a business, or strategic partnerships where I'm working with somebody else who is bringing that part to the table. I don't do it in enough parts of my life, but it just does make sense that that's always. All the times that I face the most frustration has been all the times where I've tried to do everything on my own. And the times where I've had the most success is when I found somebody who did complement me without overlapping and help to push things forward.

Have you had any other big insights since when was the book written or released?

April of last year.

Okay, cool. So in that past year, I'm sure you've probably worked with a lot of other people about this, talked about it. Are there any big insights that have come up that. That Weren't necessarily in the book. Any kind of new developments. Like if it was going to be an updated version, are there any stories or things that you would add necessarily?

Well, so there's two things. One we kind of touched on a little bit in the book is this idea of fractional integrators.

Yeah, explain that a little bit more.

So the idea is maybe you're at a point where you're not ready, one of those readiness factors. You're not ready to fully bite off a full time integrator counterpart. So what are your other options? And so there are some companies and individuals, frankly, that have kind of raised their hand and started working in a fractional mode, meaning that I'm your integrator one day a week or something like that. It's no different than you do a fractional other function in the company.

There have been some folks that have had a lot of success with this and felt really good about it. Some of those relationships have grown over time into permanent relationships. And you know, the thing that I, that I see is on the minimum side, at least if you have somebody who is an effective integrator, even if they're not full time, it's probably better than nothing, better than none.

You're right. And that's actually what I'm looking for, is that fractional integrator listeners listen up. Yeah.

And so the thing that we, the trap we kind of fall into before that is as a visionary, you'll kid yourself and you'll say, all right, I'm both. I got to be both. For now. That's just where I'm at. The reality is you're probably not doing one of those things very well.

Yeah, you're probably doing both of them, average at best.

Yeah. Or you're really gravitating towards the one that you're naturally wired for, you enjoy most. And you're doing a better job at that. You're defaulting to go there first because it's more fun and you're neglecting the other one. Right. And so you get somebody who's really good at it and dedicated and focused on it, and all of a sudden you start to see, oh yeah, I was missing that. And it starts to have not a giant impact, but a noticeable impact. And so then the prospect of that going away all of a sudden becomes very unpalatable for you. It's like, I wouldn't want to go back there. And it just kind of grows. And whenever the time is right, the relationship grows, whether it's the same person or somebody else and you're able to bring in that full time person down the road. So that's one sort of observation that's kind of new and growing. The other one is it's kind of weird. So when we put the book out, we set up a way for a community to kind of begin to form around the ideas in the book. And it was really cool to see the people that kind of raised their hand and said, oh my gosh, now I know what I am. I mean, the visionaries, they knew what they were, but the integrators, they didn't realize that there was a role like this that existed. And they started to identify with it. And that was really cool to see. And then we'd see things like on LinkedIn where people would start to change their headline from COO, General Manager, whatever to say, literally say integrator. We've seen companies that like on LinkedIn and other places. Yeah, yeah, exactly. On their LinkedIn profile. And then I saw a company the other day, actually it started with an email from some applicant, a job applicant. He emails in, is like, hey, you know, I was applying for this job, they made me go take this assessment, which was the visionary integrator assessment. And then they're hiring for this integrator position. And so the position that they were hiring for, I mean it was all, it was all just straight out of the book. It was really interesting to see that they had followed the process and here was somebody that was kind of getting fed into it. Now we're starting to see these communities form.

It's communities of integrators and visionary integrator pairs. Some of that's happening online and they're kind of talking about, hey, do you run into this, this works, what do you do when that happens? And kind of swapping stories. So that's new. And we've experimented with now a live event where we get, at this point it's just integrators in a room together. And the whole idea behind that, Brad, is really to, we think our purpose overall, we're trying to create the most powerful visionary integrator duos on the planet. To make that happen, we think we've really got to get good at helping to identify and create great integrators. Right? If that's the scarce resource, then we got to call them out of the woodwork and we've got to give them the tools they need to go pair up with these visionaries and make stuff happen. So we've started this thing called We're Calling it an integrator mastery forum, where the integrators come together for this intensive day and we walk them through the process of here's the tools, here's the skills, here's the, here's all the things that you need to be great. And then we wrap the end of it with basically an issue solving session where we just put all these real world situations up on the board that they're facing, they're thinking about, they're concerned about, and just walk them through and crunch them through it. So the sharing that happens in that environment is really, it's amazing, it's really powerful because you see somebody else having an issue and you're like, wow, that could have been mine. And then they not only benefit from the learning from each other, but they have this, aha. They tell us that, wow, now there's a place for me. There's other people out there that are like me. Right. And so all of a sudden they're not alone in the world. There's people out there like me. We can be great and we can go out there and make a huge difference in the entrepreneurial world.

Yeah. That's actually one of the things I also love about different types of personality, personality profiles and whatnot. Because it does make you feel as though some are better than others, but some of them make you feel like, oh, finally this kind of makes sense. Like, I'm not broken, right. There's other people like me. This is what other people are. And when, you know, when you see other people like you having a degree of success, it's a lot easier to model that success because it's based upon you. I know that. Like for instance, one of the personality typing things that I've really liked has been Roger Hamilton's Wealth Dynamics. Have you heard of that?

I have not.

So what's really cool, and I think where the integrator fits in. I think you'd really like this because when I read Rocket Fuel, I was almost like, this took two of the biggest portion, like pieces of this pie and put them together. So just to kind of take this rabbit trail. And I think if you go to wealthdynamics.com you can find the various stuff. But he says instead of doing a personality profile, like, hey, you are a quick start. You're this, that and the other. And telling you about you, he says you fit into one of, I think it's like eight different wealth profiles, like an entrepreneurial wealth profile. So one of them is what he calls the visionary. I'm sorry, or the creator who is the visionary and he gives you names like it's the Richard brand, it's the Steve Jobs. They have the big ideas. They're not selling themselves, but they're the big ideas next to them. There's also the star profile. So there's that person who is the Oprah Winfrey's, the people who make their personality is what they're selling. And then there's the mechanic. And the mechanic is the one who creates that duplicatable system. They're the ones who, you know, they get in there, they, they get this stuff done. It's not as the same exact thing as the integrator, but it's relatively, it's, it's kind of close there. And then he goes through other ones like a deal maker, a supporter, a trader lord, an accumulator. There's. I won't go into all these because that's a different topic for a different show. But I remember when I read this thing thinking, okay, I've got, you know, pieces of this, pieces of this. And then he was saying, yeah, you need to find your mechanic, the one who, who creates the machine that allows you to do what you're doing. And he's like, don't think that these mechanics are support, are subordinate people that they're like, oh, they're your worker bees. Like, no, that's the Ray Kroc of the world.

That's right.

The ones who see a better way to do it and then they implement the crazy ideas of Steve Jobs and Richard Branson and everybody.

I love the concept of the fractional, of the fractional integrator in some. Like, how does that differ than from, let's say I know when I want something done, I could go out and hire an agency. I could go out and hire somebody who's got these skills like outsourcing and out tasking what I need. But that's different than a fractional integrator, isn't it? Well, it may be a step on the way.

Yeah. I think of it, we've seen sort of fractional CFOs and fractional marketing execs and that stuff has been kind of coming along for a while. So I would think of it similar to that. I think in some cases it's sort of a permanent part time relationship. But in a lot of the companies that we spend the most time working with are growing pretty fast and they're kind of on that ramp from between 10 to 250 people. And so a lot of those, the relationship just naturally grows as the business grows to where they need more, they need more integrator than somebody can provide in one or two days a week.

So they get to more of a full time relationship over time. Another thing that the fractional relationship though, it sort of cracks open is see a number of those folks that are geographically.

Disconnected so meaning they're not necessarily living in your market. And so again, if that's the scarce resource that we're trying to solve for, for, if you can relax a geographic constraint, all of a sudden it opens your range of possibilities. Now if you do that, there's still some really disciplined work that you have to do. We talk about the five rules and the five tools in the book, but particularly with those five rules about how you work together, you still have to spend the time, the visionary and the integrator working together to make sure that you're, you're respecting the relationship and the structure and you're communicating in a way that will really maximize that relationship. If you don't, I mean, just think of it because of how different they're naturally wired. They're going to butt heads and the thing will blow up. It won't work.

Right. And that's where I was saying there's a difference. I know that in the article that you had written, the blog post, I think this was relatively recent and I found it on Google just now about fractional integrators say it's important that they.

That they adhere to the five tools and the five rules. Right, right. So I can see that's if you can find that, that if it's an agency, if it's a contractor, if it's an outsourcer, if it's somebody, it's like a step up from there where they don't have to be your full time employee necessarily, but they have to be on the same pages as you and where you're going.

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's not something that you would want to turn over. I mean, you want some consistency there. You're going to need it because you're building a relationship. I mean, think about it. When we bring in a full time integrator, the expectation that we want to set with everybody is, look, it's going to be a journey. You're signing up for a journey and it's not going to automatically flip the switch the day they show up and change your world to be the dream world that you want it to be. It's going to take work by both of you and the organization to get there. So the Expectation that we kind of anchor in is, hey, 12 months from now, you're going to be able to feel it and it's going to be different, but between here and there, you're going to be investing a lot of time and energy doing the things you need to do to lay the groundwork to make that possible.

Yeah, that's strong.

You got to keep that stuff in mind because it's way too.

It takes a mindset like as I'm having these little epiphanies as we're talking, that it does take that mindset of.

You'Re not just hiring somebody. In a way. It's a marriage. Yeah, it's a marriage.

I have one client that talks about their integrator as the business spouse.

Yeah, it really is. So that actually brings up. That's a good segue to the. This next question. And it's also by Matt Gallant, who asked the other one, which was, you know, talking about simply hiring.

Instead of partnering or marrying, you know, good operations and project management integrators. Or he actually says, can you simply hire instead of partnering good operations and project managers that have the integrator qualities? But. But I kind of want to clarify that question as well, which is.

How often are you seeing the necessity for partnering and giving equity for an integrator and operator, especially if you're not doing a startup together, but you've already got the business going, you want to bring somebody on, the integrator feels like much more of a partner. Do you think it's still very successful to bring them on as an employee first?

Yeah. So I'm glad you kind of clarified what we mean by partner there. And if we just isolate that equity question.

The one answer is there is no set pattern. So we see all different kinds of comp models that have some different mix from 0 to 100% of fixed comp, variable comp and equity.

Now, that said, I would tell you, in general, it's roughly a third just kind of across our experience sample, where I see some level of equity involved.

Okay. But only about a third. Well, that's good.

Yeah. So it's certainly not a requirement. I think it has to do with a whole lot of different considerations.

Well, there's a difference between profit share and equity as well.

Yeah. So, I mean, I don't consider profit sharing equity.

No, it's not. Right.

And so I would consider profit sharing more of a bonus variable comp, kind of a lever.

And that's a great way to get it going until the integrator can either Buy their way in or earn their way in or vest or whatever.

I think it's important to have good, deep conversations about why they want what they want and what do they really want. Because I think a lot of times people assume somebody wants equity when they don't really care. Right. They want stability, they want the benefits. Are they driven by the financial impact or are they driven by control or the idea of some sort of what does ownership mean? And that's a whole different podcast. Right.

But I think it's just important that they really have a good understanding of each other and don't assume that this guy across the table from me is thinking the same thing I'm thinking because they're there probably aren't. Right.

You know, as I was flipping, as you're talking and I'm kind of flipping through the book here on the Kindle and looking at some of my highlights, it kind of gave me an idea. This is actually for my listeners, but I think it's a great thing to do. If you are a potentially looking for a job, looking for clients, or looking to utilize this, you did an amazing, amazing job of listing out the both for the visionary, but as well as the integrator. Like, here's what you do and here's what you are.

Yeah.

So for instance, I'm not going to read them all, but like, you know, when it says set in a more simplified manner, a great integrator creates the following results in an organization. Clarity, communication, resolution, focus, accountability, team unity.

Prioritization, execution, et cetera. And then here's what you are personally accountable, adept at self management, decisive, good leader, goal achiever, etc. And there's, you know, like 10 more of those. But.

I would, if I had a, if I was putting out my resume or doing a proposal or trying to partner up with somebody, I would go through those, like a checklist and create, create that. Like, because if I'm talking to a visionary.

Yeah.

And you say those words.

Yeah.

Like as a result of working with me, you'll achieve more clarity, better communication, stronger resolution, greater focus and accountability with the team. Because I am a adaptable goal achiever, problem solver who is effective conflicts and project management. And I'm like, just take my money and work for me now. If you did that right. I think that it's so powerful that as people are reading the book, is there an online quiz or an assessment that they can take as well?

Yeah. So, I mean, there's obviously the assessments in the book, but if they go to rocketfuelnow.com we have an online version of the assessment that they can take.

It's only like 15, 20 questions. It's not bad.

Yeah. Right now there are two assessments. There's one for the visionary, one for the integral. So you can get a score, an indicator score from each perspective and think about that. So someone can be highly developed on the visionary side, and we would expect them to not be very highly developed, maybe on the integrator side. But the combinations of those scores, they're all over the place. So we have some people who are pretty high in both. And we talk in the book about some people ask, am I both or can I be both? And the answer is rarely.

You can have a degree and you have to have a degree of, I'm a super strong visionary and I've got a degree of integrator just because I have to execute. Otherwise I would be a failed entrepreneur. But, yeah, I'm definitely not both.

Right. A lot of times those capabilities are born of necessity. So you got good at that because you had to. Doesn't mean you love it.

Funny too, because as I read through the visionary stuff, it's like, okay, as a visionary, you're the entrepreneurial spark plug, inspire, passion provider, big problem solver, closer of big deals, learner, vision creator.

You always have big. You see the big picture, a lot of ideas, strategic thinking, create excitement with people, connect the dots. And as I'm reading that, I'm going, oh, yeah, spot on. And I loved also how you said, here's what you aren't. And there was a few things. And what was cool about that is it you basically said, it's not your fault, like, this is not you. And this was so cathartic to hear. And there's only a handful of them, but it's staying focused. You get bored easily. Check too many ideas. I get jealous of people who have one good idea and stick with it. Whiplash, which is, yeah, I guess changing directions too quick.

Yeah, Whiplash is the organization's response to you. Right? So you look left, so the whole organization looks left. But then where do you go? You immediately look back to the right. So now the whole organization is trying to track with you back to the right. And about the time they get there, you're looking back left again. And so the organization's going, please give us a break.

And I love this. You say, in many cases this is some level of ADD guilty. This is actually a gift because it provokes so many ideas. But on the bad side, you're unable to Pay attention to someone speaking to you unless they make their point in under 30 seconds. Also true.

Yeah.

Sweating the details. Check. Developing talent. Now this was also probably one of the biggest things that for me where it hit me where it says you haven't really needed to leverage the capability of others. So it isn't surprising that you've spent little time thinking about how to develop resources. Your gift is actually, is actually telling other people what to do. So you naturally order young, high potential, talented leaders around and end up running them off instead of developing them. So that, here's why that was so powerful for me. Because I know I am absolutely cognizant of the importance of team building, the importance of surrounding yourself with people who can do what you can't of bring of doing all of this. And yet I haven't been good at it. It's. It's been difficult. I. It takes so much discipline that this is the hardest part about rocket fuel for me by the way, is it's how structured it is. I almost need to hire an integrator to help me do the rocket fuel stuff. Does that make sense?

That's it. Right. But the, so the hard part you've got to do is the self discovery which is you're already talking about. So you acknowledging those things and understanding them about yourself. That's the step one. Right. So that hard introspective work that you got to do to get clear on a somebody could help me, I would be better with somebody. And two, here's kind of where I'm at. So here's what I need. And then reaching out into the world and finding who that person is and then from there they can begin to take it and run with it.

Yeah, well, and it is the. As my career has evolved as an entrepreneur and I've done a lot of things either myself or just with very, very small, almost like mercenary teams. Call them commercenary.

Oh, there you go.

I like that trademark.

The Commercenary.

That's actually a good name. I just came up with that.

But as I've done that, I've realized that in order to get to the next level in my business, it has to to be developing talent. Like you said, I'm very good at developing relationships, but so far I have not yet been good at developing talent. And it's one of the reasons I'm talking to you today because it is so important and I wanted to reach out and have you on the show so that we could discuss this and also give some other people. My listeners hope that listen you're not broken.

There is a rhyme and reason to what you're doing and what you're not doing. Your book explains it amazingly well.

When you're working with clients. Let's talk about you and your business right now. You told me a little bit of this offline, but you wrote the book, you consult, you do workshops, you work with big companies. How do you make money? What's your.

Yeah, so I have a private practice where I implement eos, which is the entrepreneurial operating system, with companies that are, again, in that same stage of growth. So they're kind of 10 to 250 folks. They're entrepreneurial businesses, and they're trying to get a handle on their company and get it to do what they wanted it to do when they started it in the first place. And so that's kind of my day job, if you will. And on the rocket fuel side, we're trying to help as many folks as we can create this combination so that they can not only get their company to do what they want it to, but experience that entrepreneurial freedom that we talked about a little bit earlier. So we're developing the offering, if you will. Over the past year, we've had lots of conversations with folks after the book came out and trying to figure out what the most important things are that we can do to help. So I started doing this weekly video series. So there's content out there that we try to answer the kind of the biggest questions that we're seeing that we think can help the most folks. And sort of the next thing that we're doing is this Integrator Mastery Forum event. So those are limited attendance, intensive workshops targeted for the integrator. So somebody who really wants to be a great integrator can come and learn how to be great and really get plugged into the community of folks that can help them begin to master their craft. And then the next wave after that is a little bit more formal membership community where we have different knowledge opportunities, the opportunities to interact directly with me and get questions answered and. And get sort of a continuous flow of information along this path of how to make their combination great. And that's directed at both visionaries and integrators. When you sit back and you think about what we've got to do to make this happen and make those powerful combinations happen. And the first step is we call it crystallize. So we got to get people to crystallize their thinking, which is become aware of this concept and reach a decision point that says, okay, you Know what? Yeah, that's right for me. That would work for me in my business. Second step is we've got to help them get connected. So finding each other, getting matched up with the right other person so that they have a strong combination to work with in the beginning. And then the third phase is maximize. And that's those five rules and five tools that you referred to earlier. That's the structure. That's what gets us to take that natural friction between the two and get them to blend that into something really powerful and strong.

That's fantastic. And then you also, you do work with companies. Like, if people want to hire you.

For consulting for their business.

Do you come to their offices? Do you work with their management teams? Do you do that?

Yes, I don't really do that. My clients come to my studio in Dallas. Even better, work with me. And it's pretty focused. That work is pretty focused on implementing eos. And so the visionary integrator offerings are more these again, for right now, they're focused on these events and getting people into the community so that we can really expand that conversation and make sure that we're providing great integrators to the world, preparing great integrators for the world, and then getting them matched up with these visionaries so we can go make these entrepreneurial companies, companies really change the world and make it a better place.

That's great. Got a great idea for you, for your. What did you call it? The Forum for the Integrators.

Yeah, the Integrator Mastery Forum.

Yeah. So.

Whatever you charge the integrators to go to that, I could see.

Letting visionaries come, charging them 10 times that, and having them just kind of like, wait, wait outside. Or, like, come out.

And be like, I just want any pool of those guys, like, gobble them up. Because you're right, it's a rare commodity. It's a very, very high demand. And my suggestion to anybody listening is if, you know, you're an integrator and executor, and sometimes you don't have all the biggest, brightest ideas, but if somebody does, you're just able to get it done.

Know that, own your value. And I mean, the world's really your oyster because there's so many people who have great ideas, and an idea is really worthless without somebody to execute it. The other thing I found is that, like, I'm really good at having an idea and executing it in the beginning. And I think most visionaries are right. So my wife and I, we had the idea forstiletto coffee dot com. Go get your coffee, ladies. Sorry, little advertisement there. But.

They, you know, within. Within three months of having the idea, we had a fully functional business. Like I went into, we both went into like creative overdrive and just did it. Like, let's go full bore. But then. And now we're at that stage, which is.

It's just. It's not startup. I mean, it is startup, but it's growth and it's okay. Things are there now. You just got to keep feeding the fire. And that's where I. That's where I'm not as good at because it's not that creative spark.

So.

Like, to the integrators out there, understand that that's. I think where the biggest value comes is absolutely.

They build. They build the machine that allows it to repeat.

And keep going and keep growing and let the visionary get back into that space that they're designed to be in.

I like to think of myself, remember the Flintstones, and it was the car that just gets going with the foot power. Fred's little feet going under there. That's me. I'll get the big car with the stone wheels and I'll just move my feet and do whatever it takes to get it moving. But at some point, I want somebody as it's moving to get in there and build me an engine while it's going to.

There you go. Good visual.

What kind of things are, by the way? I think I know this, but I didn't ask you, are you a visionary or an integrator?

I am a high visionary.

Okay. That's what I thought. I saw that. So do you have your own personal integrator.

Working with you?

So I do.

Good.

And I have, you know, kind of in my past. I have one as well. And I. I didn't know at the time that they were an integrator, but that's exactly how I built my organization. Now it kind of all makes sense for me.

Right. It's like, oh, wow, look at what happens when I follow my own advice. That's awesome. Are there any kind of nuts you're trying to crack?

Any big projects you're working on? Things that either myself, my listeners, might be able to help you. Whether it's an introduction, whether it's certain clients, whether it's resources, you name it.

Yeah. So I really come back to that. Help us find integrators. And that's my call to the world, is, hey, you integrators, raise your hand and send Brad an email. Come to Rocket Fuel now and get Plugged in with us. But we want to find you. You guys are extremely valuable and scarce, and you need to know how else.

Have you been going about finding them?

I mean, it's literally been just organic.

Yeah. Read the book. People read it and go, oh, that's it.

That's right. I mean, the book has been out for just a little over a year now, and we've been really, really pleased with how it's been kind of taken up. And so it's growing. It was kind of cool when we launched the book in that first week, in one day, I was having a conversation with somebody in Australia and somebody else in South Africa and somebody else in England. And so just like these pockets globally where you've got these entrepreneurial hotbeds. And like you said, it's the topic that kind of comes up is, man, how do I get past this? This sucks. How do I get past this back to what I wanted? And so it just is a natural conversation that comes up. So we got to find these integrators.

Yeah, I agree completely. Have you done any paid advertising, especially on Facebook and whatnot? Like, I could totally. I'm just think I don't know everything you've done, but yeah.

So this is where, you know, your digital marketing expertise, I'm sure, could benefit me greatly. You know, I know enough about that world to be really dangerous and misguided. I sure. But it's really interesting to me because I know there's leverage there and I can reach farther, faster. So where there are ways to do that. I'm very open to hear more, learn more, but it's not something that I know and understand well yet.

Well, this might be something fun to connect with offline about this, because immediately this is my visionary. I start to have ideas. If I were doing this, like how I would try to.

Find those people. And the fact that you've already got the assessment, you've made it available on rocket Fuel now. Right. I can go there and I can take. I'm on the page right now. Where do I take the assessment? Let me just see.

Should say assessments.

Yep, Yep, there it is.

That's it.

I hope. Visionary. So one of the things, just offhand is I noticed that I have to take the visionary assessment or take the integrator assessment as opposed to one assessment that tells me which one I am.

Yeah.

So if I took the visionary, it's going to give me a score. Like how strong of a visionary or how strong.

It's going to give you a score on a 100 point scale.

Right. So what I would. This is just off top of my head. The first thing I would do is create almost one right before that. And it would probably be a much shorter one. It could be probably like five to ten questions to identify a visionary versus an integrator. Right. And it's like, find out which one you are. Just make sure. Because I can see a lot of frustrated integrators, especially feeling as though they need to be the visionary and having that frustration, like, I don't quite have the ideas or I'm not this, that or the other. And it could be one of these epiphanies you give them. It's like, yeah, because you're not really a visionary. The good news is you're something.

Not better, but just as valuable as a visionary. And I think by giving somebody that epiphany that I'm just as valuable as these other people that I'm either trying to be or support or whatever. I'm just doing it a different way. And I found that in marketing, when you can give a client or a prospective client an epiphany like that, it's so powerful.

But I like all the other copy you've got. Take the assessment to discover your unique strength and grow.

Well, I'll put some pen to paper. I'll see if I can come up with any kind of cool ideas for you because I absolutely love what you're doing. I think developing a pool of integrators will allow the visionaries of this country, of this world, to have so much more success. And it's one of the things that I think will drive our economy forward, even in hard times.

Amen.

So if there's anything I can do for you, any introductions.

If you're interested.

I host a mastermind.

Every four months called the Boardroom Mastermind with. Actually, my partner there is Kent, who I mentioned before. We do it out here in San Diego. It's coming up in July. I can send you more information about it. But if you're ever open to getting out of the Texas July and coming to San Diego, I guarantee you know.

What it's like in Texas in July.

Oh, absolutely. That's why I moved, because when I was living in Dallas.

Moved three and a half years ago. My wife is from Brazil and she went back to Brazil for a month, like July 20th through August 20th. And I have friends out in San Diego, so I just came out for the month. I was like, you're getting out of here. I'm going to get out of here. I'm going to go to couch surf with some friends that month and I saw this is how San Diego does August. Are you crazy?

Wow.

Like, I'm moving. So it wasn't long after that. But I can send you more information, I think, if you're the least bit interested. There's some great connections there and some great people that may be able to even help propel your business even more. Cool.

Man. This is great. If people want to get ahold of you, rocketfuelnow.com Is there anything else you'd like to give them?

Yeah, I mean, that's the main thing. Come to rocketfuelnow.com and that's the doorway into all that stuff. If anybody wants to try to get ahold of me, probably the best way is LinkedIn, Mark C. Winters, or on Twitter Arc C. Winters. And that's probably all the handles they need.

Awesome. Well, Mark, I can't tell you how much I appreciate this. This has been a real treat for me getting to talk to you about this. And as I said, it's a topic that I know is a hot one. I expect it to be a very highly downloaded episode. I know a lot of my friends, when I told them I was interviewing you were excited to hear it.

Thanks for having me on. It's been an absolute blast for me.

Me too. Guys, listening to this. If you are enjoying it, send me an email, let me know. Send me an email, let me know. If you're an integrator, if you're a visionary, screw it. If you're a visionary, just leave me alone. I don't need you. So cruel. Just kidding. But for real.

I have a growing couple of businesses that I'm running and I'm always looking for people who can execute, who get it. If you've been an entrepreneur or especially if you've got any digital marketing experience whatsoever and you've got the inkling to potentially work with me, partner with me, help execute some of these ideas and kind of be a strategic partner with me. I guarantee there's a lot of doors we can, I can open for you. A lot of fun we can have. Send me an email to ask bradakenratbusiness. If you've got a resume, send it. If you got some ideas or just want to talk to me, do that. But by all means, pick up the book Rocket Fuel, grab it on Amazon, go to Rocket Fuel now and pay attention to what Mark's doing because I think you guys are going to continue to hear a lot more.

From him. In the future. So, Mark, anything else to add or.

That's it, man. Go eat some bacon.

Let's go. Integrate.

All right, brother. I appreciate you. And, guys, thanks for listening. I will see you on the next episizzle. Bye. Bye.