Ron Lynch: Direct Response Lessons From Selling $3 Billion Of Product On TV And How To Use Them To Grow Your Business

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All right, welcome back to my little profit kitchen, folks. This is Brad, host of Bacon wrap business, and it is my distinct pleasure to welcome you today. And I'll let you basically eavesdrop on a conversation I'm going to have with my guest, Ron lynch, who I'll introduce in just a second. But Ron has been a friend of mine for a couple years. I've seen him work. I was dazzled by what he's been able to do and I was really lucky to get somebody with Ron's experience and knowledge in.

Direct response tv. More specifically, to get on here and talk about direct marketing at the highest levels. These are the levels of infomercials where hundreds of thousands of dollars are at stake. And Ron happens to be a 15 year veteran of the infomercial industry. He's worked on some of the largest brands and campaigns that you've seen, along with some of the household products that you see every day. He's worked with industry greats such as Billy Mays and other folks who you may be familiar with. And last we spoke, I'll let him correct me if I'm wrong. He's responsible for, I believe, over $3 billion of sales from the shows that he has created and the direct response TV ads through multiple channels. Ron is a guy that I met a couple years ago because I read his book buy now. I forget what the subtitle was, but like, creative ways to get people to buy your stuff is a different title. I'll have Ron correct me on that. But what I was amazed by is it really gave a breakdown with case studies and how to about the way the direct response TV industry works from how to find and source products and find great ideas and understand if a product will work well to understanding how to test using direct response TV and then roll it out into retail. I mean, it was really an amazing book that I was fortunate enough to get a hold of him and negotiated an infomercial between one of my clients and Ron and his team. And I got to be on the set the entire time watching Ron work his magic scripting out this show that was going to that did on national television. And just see how much effort, detail, and genius went into crafting the message. So I'm really excited to bring Ron on the show today because.

Since I know that most of my audience are entrepreneurs and marketing executives and have everything from small to big businesses, but most of you guys are involved in the digital online marketing space to some degree. So I wanted Ron to talk about how the. The really big world of direct response television and show creation can translate to folks selling things online or if they're looking to break into tv and if that makes a good decision for them or not. So without any further ado, Ron Lynch. How are you, buddy?

Wow, thanks. What a great introduction. I kind of want to meet that guy. If I die before you, will you speak at my funeral?

I'll do that. Hopefully. Hopefully that. Well, I was gonna say hopefully that doesn't happen, but wait a minute.

I think I'm a little older than you, so let's just say it happens in the natural course of things.

Couple years. But no, I mean, that's literally just. That was off the top of my head, and it's from the heart. I really. I enjoyed meeting you the first time I walked on the set with Drew, and I loved watching you work. And coming from a guy like myself who I've created a lot of offers and done a lot of video sales letters and slaved over the copy and how to create these 20 to 30 minute video sales letters and how much work that took, and one of the things that I. So it made me really appreciate when I watched you directing Drew's show, just how important language was, how important body language was, how important just all the little aspects were. And I knew that one day, Look, I've got to sit down and.

Tap into your expertise and find out how myself and other people can do what we're doing better. So thanks again for being on the show.

Sure. Thanks for having me. And I've gone through your other podcasts, and I've got to say I'm very honored to be in this collection of folks. If this is the only podcast you've heard from Brad, you need to go listen to the rest of them because there's a wealth of information at Bacon Rapids business.

I appreciate that. So let's talk a little bit about.

Let's get a little bit more backstory to you, because I want it to come from you. Like where.

Sure.

You know, the experience level you've got. So kind of break it down. How did you get started in the business?

I have kind of a weird background that naturally drove me to this place. When I was in college, I was a very, I think, ambitious person. And I got my first patent for a product. There was an exercise product. When I was in college and wanted to make an infomercial, I had a job in a grocery store. I was a grocery store manager. And eventually I became a chief operating officer in that grocery chain and learned brick and mortar. But I always had this desire to want to advertise. The interesting thing about the grocery business is that it is a really narrow margin business. So you have to learn how to make money in the last 1% and you really have to learn how to sell. I learned all of the things of P and L and business mechanics from that industry. So when I jumped into.

Making television commercials and infomercials specifically.

About 15 years ago, I had that kind of knowledge inside of me. I also had a background in filmmaking. I often tell people I was a failed child actor.

Did you have an actual spot or something on tv?

Yeah, I actually. My first job was I was hired by Robert Altman and I played a role in a movie called the Kane Mutiny Court Martial, which nobody probably saw, was a made for TV CBS version of the Herman Woke story. The Kane Mutiny Court Martial, which is a play that Herman Woke wrote, and it was released on TV about the same time as the Oliver north stuff was going on.

Oh. So nobody paid attention to that. They just.

Well, it was interesting because that's why Altman made the film, was that it related very much topically.

Oh, okay.

Oliver north north scenario. So out of that, I ended up getting a SAG card. Like my first audition. I got a job and got a SAG card. And then I went on to make another 13 movies with little tiny bit roles. But I always stayed on as a crew member, as a PA and learned how to make films. So here was the kind of the perfect storm of a filmmaking background and a retail background, and you put those two things together and you land in infomercials.

Nice.

So that's how I got started.

A friend of mine owned an ad agency, and I had written a movie and auctioned it to somebody, and he said, hey, you wrote a movie. Could you write a TV commercial? And I said, sure. And I did. I wrote a commercial for Space Bag, and it worked well. And so I changed careers and I became a creative director at an ad agency and really went after making infomercials for the next 15 years. And it's been a very fun and rewarding career.

Nice. So tell me about some of the other infomercials you've worked on just for other folks, frame of reference. Like as I said, you've worked with Billy Mays, right?

Yeah, I worked with Billy Mays. I launched Orange Glow with him. Had done a lot of other background spots with Billy as well from the creative side. Spent a lot of time with him. People think of him as being a pitch man. He was very good creative. He had very good ideas about offer and very good ideas about how to make big demos on tv. Exciting. He helped me a lot with one of my first hit shows called the Total Trolley, which was a convertible ladder. It was a ladder, a step ladder, a four wheeled furniture dolly and a hand truck. It was one new tool and it was a tool that was built for women. So it was a unique category and we came up with incredible demos for that show. It actually won the infomercial of the year.

Really?

Era Electrical Electronic Retailers association in our industry, which was gratifying and we sold a lot of step ladders.

That's fantastic.

So Totem Trolley was one of my first shows. I worked with Kevin Harrington and Sean Fay on the Flavorwave Deluxe oven which is a. You've probably seen it on tv. It's kind of a glass dome oven. It almost looks like something you'd store a cake in.

No, I have one of those. Mine is Sakura, but it's one of those infrared or convection, whatever.

Yep. Infrared oven went on to do smartware, which was the first flexible silicone bakeware sold on television that was successful. Four or five people had tried it and we figured out how to do it. So that was exciting.

Just a litany of products. Light Relief, which actually just came off the air after 14 years on the air with Robert Wagner. It's an infrared pain relief device.

You worked on that. That was yours?

Yeah, I actually created that show and have the design patent on that product.

Really?

That's fantastic. That product. So that's. That. That was a cool product to be involved with. And then that segued into a lot of larger companies products. People found out about us and we ended up working with companies like Johnson and Johnson and sc, Johnson Wax and Coleman.

So we've launched, I think I've probably done 300 shows, 100 long form infomercials, 200 short form infomercials, and strategy for a bunch of companies as well in the space.

Wow. Fantastic. So that's now speaking to you listeners out there. This is why I think you should pay very close attention. Ron has worked on some of the biggest brands as well as launching things like the light relief, like the total trolley companies that it's not.

These companies don't have hundred of million dollar marketing budgets. So when you're doing this, you have to make sure you get things right. And as I mentioned to you in the past, it's kind of funny, every time in my business I've come out with an offer and most of my colleagues do who focus on Internet marketing primarily.

We'll come out with an offer and spend a 500 or $1,000 test budget on Facebook, whatever just to see if it works. But give me an idea when you know. So when we came out with Drew Canole's infomercial, you guys did a test back in about a year and a half ago. What was the test budget on that typically?

So test budgets for long form infomercials tend to be around 15 to 20 thousand dollars. And that's what we call a two week test. Media is booked Monday through Sunday. That's the media week. We typically book media through two weeks and you bunch it up over the weekends. So when people are home, when the long form infomercial time is more available, it's more prevalent and available on the weekends. But on top of that, that's just the media budget you have to have, your show has to be complete, you have to have tape dubs done. So that's a few thousand dollars. You have to have a call center set up, you have to have a fulfillment center set up. So just getting to that first weekend with Media plus, you're looking at a 30 to $40,000 expense of really just getting into the business.

Right. You know what I thought was really eye opening for me when I read your book was how on many of these products the goal of the infomercial is not to.

Most of the money does not come from the infomercial sales. It's getting that into retail, it's launching the brand awareness, getting the traction and thinking about all the multiple channels that you can get in, that's really what the Dr. TV drives. That's true, right?

Yeah, it's different in every case. I would say that if you wanted to paint it with a broad brush. That's exactly right. You have to have a long term strategy that includes all of those channels. I do experience people and clients that have something that's specifically infomercial driven alone, that it must survive on infomercial and the website that supports the infomercial. I have a fair amount of clients that still do that. But what requires there is a super unique usp. You have to have a product that's very unique and it has to have the pricing mechanics to be able to support the television. So that's important. But there are cases, and I guess that's why people come to us, is we have the experience to do that in a number of ways that we deal with the things that already have retail distribution and things that have no retail distribution.

Okay, now let's talk about pricing mechanics to support television. What do you mean by that?

So television is not cheap, but the supply chain isn't cheap either. So if you have a product, let's say you have your product or your widget cost $20 to manufacture. If you go through the traditional route of retail, you take your product to a distributor who doubles the price, who takes it to a marketer that doubles the price, that takes it to the retailer, that marks it up 30%. So your $20 cost of goods is now in a $99 retail product. And that's generally how retail works. There's a lot of what they call keystoning involved in retail. People doubling the price to get their markup along the way, the product touches a lot of hands.

In direct response, you're cutting all of that out.

That doesn't mean that you can drop your price down to $22, however, because TV media becomes your fulfillment channel and you need that money. That's between the $20 and the $99 to Fund Media, to fund fulfillment, to fund your call center, to pay for all of those things. And you can do that successfully. That's how the business started. And people are still doing it that way. But you really want to have a four time markup to a six time markup if possible on television. So when you see people actually confuse infomercials in short form, they're two different things. They function the same way. But there's one minute and two minute commercials and the proper nomenclature for that is short form or spots. And then an infomercial is five minutes or 30 minutes. Okay, there is some five minute time out there.

Have you found you know what makes the difference between an effective. Like how do you choose 5, 20 minute? Do you just. Do you know, do you know, typically film a 20 minute version and then cut out the pieces to create a five minute version and then test to see what converts better? Or how do you typically gauge what you should do based on the product?

It works two directions. So I will make if the product needs a lot of explanation and it has the proper pricing mechanics to support it, I'll make a half hour infomercial and a half hour infomercial contains in it testimonials and it contains a couple of CTAs or calls to action. And if that show is successful, then you'll go back and you'll cut that show down to a five minute, which typically involves the CTA and maybe some lengthy testimonials or a bevy of them. Conversely, you can have short form products, one minute and two minute products that work very well. And if they work, you'll extend that time by adding more testimonials to that and putting it in a five minute time frame. The unfortunate thing about five minute infomercials is that the inventory is not really that great in the marketplace. There's not a lot of stations that sell the five minute format. So it's kind of a secondary sell for everybody. Whether you start with a one or two minute or whether you start with a 30, it's really kind of the second tier.

How would you make that decision though? Granted, yours might be based on gut reactions, but are there any rules of thumb for should we start with the short or start with the long?

I mean, yeah, no, actually it's not budget related. One, it's pricing mechanics, but secondly, it's how long of an explanation does the viewer need to make a decision to buy? If your product is very simple, putting it in one minute or two minute spots is really ideal.

Maybe you got a new set of toenail clippers. You don't really need a 20 minute infomercial.

Well, yeah, that's absolutely right. And there's a lot of things that are out there that are infomercials that people don't recognize are infomercial are infomercials. Eharmony ads are infomercials. They lead you to eharmony and you purchase your, you know, your, your dating package.

Charles Schwab Infomercial one of one of ours. GoPro GoPros are actually infomercials and there's some that are 30 seconds long that are, they're actually in there. They're buying remnant doctor time. So that the thing that qualifies them to buy that time, by the way, is some mechanism of consumer collection at the end of the spot. So in GoPro's case, they have a contest that you enter and that appears at the end of every ad. It says every day we give away a complete suite of our products. You go online to enter. So that's their doctor mechanism.

So they tell you where to Go.

Yeah, there's got to be a doctor mechanism where you're collecting consumer data directly and that's what qualifies you for doctor time. So there's 1, 800 number or a URL.

Well, and that's just to clarify for any of the listeners out there who aren't, you know, if they're just getting started in understanding what direct response is. Really the big difference between a traditional commercial that you might see for, you know, a branding one is you're trying to get awareness of the product, but direct response has a call to action that can be measured. So like you're like Ron is saying here, if they know that they've aired this spot at noon on Sunday and then they can see their traffic spike, lead Spike, phone calls, etc. You can directly attribute.

That call to action to a specific response and you can gauge what your return on investment is. That's really one of the main differences. One has a measurable call to action.

Yes. Yeah. And one of the other things most people don't realize is you see a 1, 800 number on TV and you don't realize that that same product has 301, 800 numbers all over the United States. So they can identify exactly which airing the viewer responded to. So that helps define the mean media metric going forward and refine what media has purchased.

Nice. Yeah, it's an amazingly dialed in process, but that comes from having to spend so much on media costs. So let's talk about. God, I've got so many questions and I want to keep this coherent for the listeners, but also for myself. So let's talk about what makes a good. In your mind, what makes a product a good candidate for, for.

An infomercial, either short form or long form, how do you pick?

There's two things that I look at. One is the standard where our industry started.

Is this a product that 60 to 80% of the public could want, need or use? So is it fairly universal, broad enough product? That would be criteria one. Criteria two would be, does it have the financial mechanics to support that? Criteria 3 is, does it have a definable USP? Is it very unique? We like selling innovation. That's typically what I look for in a product first, is it totally innovative? Is it something that nobody else has? And then the fourth thing which has really become the more modern element that we've had to add in the last few years is does it have a media channel that that specifically supports it? Because if you can't qualify it with the first qualific qualifier, 60 to 80% of the audience needs it. Maybe only 20% of the audience needs it. That might be okay. If that 20% has a very specific media outlet that they aggressively view and watch and you know that you can place the media there.

Okay, yeah. Like sports product on ESPN or.

Sure. Or reverse mortgage product is probably. That's a very popular product in the industry right now and has been for a while. Reverse mortgages appear on very specific type of media.

I got you. So what would be an example? News shows, Fox News, stuff like that?

That's exactly it. Fox is a great one for that. You see some of the walk in bathtubs and things like that as well. Fox is the place to go for stuff like that.

Nice. Okay, great. So, and then you have worked on products that number one, that you've done it as an agency. So somebody, the entrepreneur, the business owner comes in and says, we're going to hire you to do this for us. But you've also done entrepreneurial ones where.

Correct.

Like these are your products or you own part of the company.

Yeah. Or I have a stake in it somehow. Yeah, absolutely. I've done both of those.

Nice.

So again, those individual ones, I really look for innovation.

Okay. Is there other places you go? If you were starting right now just completely with no clients or no products, what's the first thing you would do to say, okay, I'm really good at creating these spots and you know, this creative. And I'm gonna find a product to go sell and put my expertise behind. What would you do first? There.

There's a couple places I look. I go to trade shows and specific trade shows, home shows, home and garden shows. Any place where there's a specific niche where products are being represented that may be smaller. Where someone has a booth and they have something that's developed that they can actually sell. They just don't have the marketing savvy or the know how. So some mom and pops come from that. I found a product a couple about a year ago at a health show and it was a nutraceutical product for sleep. So a Tootsie Roll basically that you eat before you go to sleep. And I'm like, well, it's chocolate. That's nice. It's a Tootsie Roll. That's nice. And it makes you sleep and it's got no drugs in it. You wake up not being groggy. That's great. And met with the owner. He really was a bootstrapped operation. And we created an extremely affordable commercial with him. And put it on tv. And it's worked very nicely for him.

I've never heard of that. What's that called? I've never heard of.

The product's called Sleep Squares.

Oh, cool.

And one of the challenges with that was he didn't have a big budget yet he's battling with pharmaceutical companies over that same space. Yeah. So we did. We did a very simple animated spot, which if you saw it, you wouldn't know that we did it because of a lack of a ton of funding, which was the truth. But we presented it in a way that it looked like a pharmaceutical agency was doing it. So it had the legitimacy of a pharmaceutical in a. In that. And those are great products to have because they have continuity associated with them. And that might be an example of what you were talking about earlier, where you don't necessarily have the financial mechanics on sale one, but future sales help drive the business.

Okay, now, is this a product that you had a stake in, whether it was the company or the performance of this product as well?

In the performance, yes. I didn't take a stake in the company.

Okay, nice. Have you ever done that where you just went out and sourced your own product and said, this is the Ron lynch product. I'm going to put. Put all the pieces together yet has that been.

Typically I do that with partnerships because the product development is very expensive and the funding side of it is very expensive. So I worked in conjunction with a consumer goods company out of California for a number of years, and that's where the Total Charlie product came from.

The smartware was a product that I worked with and Light Relief, both where I had a stake in those products.

And.

And we found them, we created them, we designed them, we created names and logos. We did a couple of pillows as well.

So, yeah, I've done that maybe half a dozen times.

Nice. And then when you say that sometimes doing a licensing deal with these folks, like if you find a great product and they're just selling.

They're selling them on their own at the trade shows and out of the trunk and local retail, would you typically come in and.

And try to obtain a license to.

Create a. Yeah, that happens. That's one of the types of deals we do. In fact, where that actually mostly comes from is from our book, is people read our book and go, hey, I think my product would work as an infomercial. And they call and then they find out what the costs are, whether it's short form or long form. And some people get a little skittish about the costs. And if it's something that I really believe in, then I'll take down my costs as for an ownership stake in that product and take that risk along with them. But again, it's got to be innovative. It's got to be something I really believe in. And we share the risk in some of those sometimes.

Fantastic. All right, so let's get into.

Some of the creative aspects of it.

Sure.

We've talked about how you pick a product. And one of the things I know just from knowing enough about the business, if you anything with a very great ability to demonstrate visual, those are. That's what's killer. Right. That's what makes all the greatest infomercials is that stunning visual. Like what is it? The crazy glue, Gorilla glue, whatever it was, or the guy hanging from the ceiling.

Yeah. So I think that that kind of gets to the types of shows that there are. And so things that I kind of break these down into categories and what you're talking about is the strong demo shows. And I think of those as being the tool shows, the fix it show shows, the household appliance shows, the cooking shows. Those are really the kick ass form of demo shows. But that's really it. That's one silo of shows.

Okay, this is great.

You could look at Proactive and go, well, Proactive is not a great demonstration show. It's got before and afters. But it's pouring benzoyl peroxide on skin. That's not very exciting, but it's a very effective show. So that's a whole other category. So there's shows like that that are really essentially a form of testimonial shows and that works well for things like Proactive and Nutraceuticals and pain relief, where you stack up a whole bunch of consumers that have had great experiences and have before and after stories or photos. Weight loss shows work that way.

I know we did a lot of those on Drew's stuff.

That's a whole other silo to itself. Then there's talk shows. There's some very successful infomercials for IP products. And I think that this would appeal to a lot of your listener listeners is there's a lot of really good space to be made in infomercials. Inexpensively doing talk show formats on real estate investment.

All of the IP type of products that are out there. Tony Robbins for a matter, that's an IP product. That's an intellectual property product that did very, very well in a talk show presentation. Then there's presentation products where A person takes a format almost like a TED Talk and you're filming a presentation of someone who's super talented, like a Tony Robbins or a Jack Canfield. And you can put that on television with a cta and you're actually taking part of the product in a way and putting it right in front of the customers. It's almost like taking the product for a test drive.

Nice. So you know you are doing, and I won't reveal unless you reveal, but I know that in the next month, month and a half, you're working with an IP expert, you know, in a certain area and you're going to be doing a show there.

And you know this. It's in the health and wellness field. That's as much as I'll reveal on this. But what format are you taking there? Are you going. Talk show Presentation.

We're going to do presentation. This is a person who is very well known nationally and globally, an expert in an IP field and they produce a number of different types of programs that bring personal success. And we're going to do, we're going to take that person's presentation because they just have so many hours and skill at presenting. And the show will be them presenting in a seven minute POD in act one, a six minute POD in act two, and then a two minute POD in act three. And those are spaced apart by testimonials and the CTA describing the pitch and the sale of the product.

Nice. Now does POD mean, Is that just like a. Does POD stand for something acronym?

No, it just means pod.

I got you like key pod.

Like it's a segment of the show.

Cool.

Awesome. Okay, so what you're going to do and are you going to be having that in like front of a live studio audience? I've seen some of those presentations.

Yeah. I'm just a person who's used to doing live studio audience. And I like that format because the performer, the talent really feeds off of that and so does the audience. And the material is very engaging and we make be able to have in that audience people who've utilized that product and can speak to it with honesty.

Cool. So now let's dive a little deeper into these four types of shows. Are there any general show writing formulas or templates like you just said, there's seven minute POD in the middle of testimonial and call to action. Then 6 minute, 2 minute. How do you start off with a blank piece of paper to say, I'm going to write this show?

So I do it kind of backwards. I Reverse engineer it. First of all, I'll say I am a person that never buys anything from television or infomercials or anything because I don't believe anybody. I think everybody's lying to me. So that's the conceit that I bring to the writing process is first I must convince me because I'm very unconvincable. So I start with that premise. Hopefully the client has research. So if there is product research or it's an existing product, or they have any sales data which most people have by the time they're willing to invest in television, I want to see who's bought, why they've bought, and I want to talk to some people that have bought. So there's kind of a pre research phase before I write anything. The phase after that is writing a creative brief. And in most advertising agencies, a creative brief is a one to two page document. For me, it's about a 14 to 20 page document that dives into every aspect of their marketability, their expected audience. It's more like a business plan than it reads like a creative brief. But it does contain the sales argument and perspective outlines for shows. So that gets completed and then that's passed back and forth between the client and I probably two or three times until everybody on the team is in alignment is the direction we're going to go. And within that we typically talk about, hey, which one of these four types of long form infomercials are we going to do if we're, if we're talking about doing a long form.

So that's, that's the first step. So then first and second step. So the third step is really starting to script. And scripting contains some formulaic pieces and I'll say them in linear order of how a viewer sees the show. The first piece is what we call the tease or the open to the show, which is between 90 seconds and three minutes long. And it describes the problem that the product will solve for you. Ultimately, it describes the innovation of the product, gives some background of the product, and probably has one or two or three bites of testimonials from either experts or consumers that have tried the product and teases you to watch the show. And it's the carrot that we dangle at the beginning that lets the viewer know the show's about them.

So it's almost a commercial for the show. I'm going to put it in a nutshell. If you're stumbling across this right now, this is what it is, why you should care and why you should watch Every single minute of this.

Yeah. And that's a great point that you make that stumble across it because direct response time is something people stumble across. People don't look through their TV guide and seek out infomercial.

Oh dude, I set my DVR for it. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm gonna watch Big Bang Theory and then whatever this paid programming show is.

Yeah, right. So that's, that's, that's the first step then, then, because then act one begins after you've done that tease. And that's typically seven to eight, nine minutes long. And that, that is your host and discussing the product. Some testimonials fettered in. Then comes CTA1 or the first call to action. And a call to action is typically three to five minutes, which is the hard selling commercial for the product. And then you repeat the process.

Faster.

Act two is kind of a rehash of act one, but a little bit shorter. And it offers new information. The reason you rehash is because people again stumble upon these shows and sometimes they find them on the 15 minute mark, they don't find them at the top. Then you, then you find new and interesting ways to redo the pitch, add some more layers of information that the person didn't have in the first act and then you replay the CTA. And sometimes the CTAs are a little bit different. I tend to mix up my CTAs and make them different intentionally so that if you've watched the show from the beginning, you don't get bored. And there's new yet new information in that CTA. And then the Act 3 of the show is usually typically very short, two to three, four minutes that reviews. This is what you've learned. And the show usually ends with a small tag. I liken it all back to playwriting or back to the five paragraph essay that you used to write in high school English class. You tell them what you're going to tell them, then you tell them. Then you tell them you told them. Then you tell them why you told them. Then you tell them more, then you tell them why you told them that. Then you remind them of everything you told them and you close it.

That's great.

It's a proof. It's really, it's trial by jury on tv.

I like that.

That's really poignant. And that's something that I think is a big takeaway for whether you're writing copy for.

Video sales letters online for this, for even articles and content marketing. It's a good formula because people need to constantly be reminded and not just given new information that doesn't lead to that.

That's why it's direct response. We're looking for a response, not just putting out information.

Here's one of the obvious differences with online video sales letters that people don't stumble across. Nobody stumbles across a video sales letter that's already in progress. For instance, you always hit play or it starts when you're there versus the infomercial world. You have to have that kind of repetitive thing because you don't know when people are coming in.

I know that in my experience for myself and working with other experts and studying a lot about copywriting, it's one of the things I geek out on. But in the beginning it's always.

It'S either a, like you said that commercial for why you should be watching this, giving them real quickly look, I expect you to spend some time here, but then really dialing in on the problem, building the problem you're having, building credibility, twisting the knife on why this problem is so much bigger than they realize and convincing them. Now granted, this is a lot for information and IP based products as opposed to the physical ones.

And taking them on this longer journey. Oftentimes these videos are anywhere between 20 and 40 minutes, sometimes even longer for a VSL online. But in the infomercial space where you do, how much time do you actually spend.

Really shining the light on that problem and twisting that knife and showing them that.

You do it thematically over and over through.

And it also depends on who you're selling to and what the product is. We probably spend more time on benefits and features than the VSLs do, but we also have the benefit of all of this extra.

Data that the consumer can get from watching it. I'm fascinated by vsl and one of the things that's fascinating me is that the CTA always comes at the end, right? I have three in a show and folks that do video sales letters have one and it's right at the tail. And it's an interesting psychology, but they also have the.

Freedom to write it to be exactly however long they need it. And I don't have that flexibility. I have to be 28 minutes and 30 seconds and I have to field that time and keep people watching. So the trick for me is to get them to the problem as quickly as possible. Probably I spend 10% of the time at the beginning on the problem and then dive into the solution and really go after. And it depends whether I'm Selling to a man or woman, features and benefits, because those weigh differently in a show if you're selling to a man or to a woman.

Oh, yeah. And I want to flag that as something we're majorly going to talk about because of that recent mastermind that, you know, we had. You spoke about the difference between men and women and whatnot. So make sure we don't miss that. But I want to ask you, what is the. What's the biggest challenge in the creative side for you when sitting down to come up with the show? I mean, you've kind of done the research, and I know that in copywriting for, I guess, the web, and whether it's VSL or a page, it's kind of coming up with the lead and that opening lead and hook of getting somebody on. It's relatively easy to write features and benefits if you know your product really well, although there's an entire art form to doing that well and whatnot. So I know that the lead and the hook in web copy is the hardest for me. And I always used to be astounded when I was sitting there with a blank PowerPoint presentation or a blank piece of paper to create this video and realizing or getting frustrated, going, you know.

TV shows will do 30, 60 minutes, even maybe a couple minutes, and fully describe the entire features and benefits and have a call to action on these products. How come they can explain this succinctly in two minutes? And it's taken me 20 minutes just to kind of get to the heart of it. Like, I was so frustrated. But what's the biggest challenge creatively for you to come up with?

I think for me, it's. Sometimes it's the demo. You know, what's that magic moment that becomes iconic for the product?

We have the benefit of not having our viewer watch the show necessarily in a linear order. You have the problem of you have to get them with the hook, because if you don't get past that, they never get to minute one.

Our viewer clicks in at minute one, they click in at minute three, they click in at minute seven. So it's not as critical. That element is not as critical for us. I think for us, it's making succinct hooks and a series of succinct hooks to grab a larger audience at any point that they may tune in. So you're looking for a big hook at the beginning. I'm looking for a lot of little solid hooks all the way through so that if somebody comes across us, we are able to get them with that hook or that problem and solution, even throughout the show, keep them watching so that we get all of them. So demos are very helpful in that. One of the things that we haven't really touched on that I'd like to spend a second on is the word sincerity. I think people hear the word infomercial and they immediately hear yelling and selling and they hear insincerity. And for me, that's the number one thing that I drive towards in everything that we do, is I want to the consumer to feel like I'm telling them the truth and the show is about them. And I think that that goes to how our mind works or my mind works in the sales process. I'm never trying to sell anybody anything.

I'm trying to get them to want to buy. Yeah, just different mindset.

TV. People say, oh, TV's a window into the world. And I'm saying, that's absolutely crap. It's not. TV is not a window into the world. TV is a mirror in your living room. People watch television about themselves. So when I write television, I'm trying to write television about the viewer first and actually the product second. Because if I make the show about them, they'll watch it and then I can talk. Then I have the opportunity to talk to them about the product.

So how would you make it more about them? I understand the sincerity part, but what do you mean? Can you elaborate on that?

Sure.

We. We always speak in the first person in tv, and then you. I see a lot of good Internet writers do the same thing too, is you're never. You never come to television. You go, oh, a million people are watching. You never propose your writing from that person.

Say, hey, guys.

Yeah, yeah. There's no. It's you. It's the first person. It's you. And I say, you watch yourself. You sell yourself and you buy yourself. And that's what. That's what we need to know. You've heard me say this before, Brad. People go to the mall and they read the map at the mall and it says, you are here. And they think, oh, oh, I'm here. They think it's about them. When the map is really saying, it's about here, it's not about you, it's about here. But we're all pre. We come into this world pre wired that we make it all about us. So I try to speak in a language format. First of all, that's personal and sincere. And if there's something problematic about the product or questions I have, I raise those in shows and I actually shine a light on that. Hey, we can do this, but nobody can do that for you. And by the way, here's our competitors, and they can't do that either. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking your product and showing occasionally what its limitations are.

It makes it much more believable, and they're probably thinking that anyway.

Yeah, yeah. And I think most people see infomercials and they see people cutting mufflers off of cars with steak knives and, you know, stuff you'd never do, and they go, oh, okay, that's the infomercial world. And, yeah, that's a certain aspect of it. But if you're Gonna seriously spend 100 to $500 on a product.

You want to know that it's real and that it works.

Oh, yeah. And that's.

Yeah.

What do they call them? A damaging emission, typically in. Have you ever.

Yeah, yeah.

Sales copy. A damaging emission where it's like, okay, that makes it believable. There's a. A friend of mine and a guy that I've studied a lot of what he's done. He's down there in Austin where you live. I don't know if you've met Perry Belcher yet, but he's a good friend of Dave and several of our mutual friends and Roland's. But.

Perry had a really poignant thing. I don't know if this was how much he came up with this or just the way he phrased it, but it made a lot of sense when he said he's reviewing his or somebody else's copy. He's looking for.

How many things am I asking the prospect to believe about what I say? Because obviously, if you need to believe it, then it's not substantiated by fact. Okay, I have to believe that it works. I have to believe that it works as quick as you say it does. I have to believe that you're not telling me the truth. I have to believe that you'll actually adhere to your refund. I have to believe that it'll. Not only that it works for other people, but that it'll work for people in my situation. And he says, I go through the entire thing. How many things am I asking the person to just take on blind faith? And the more you can remove that or substantiate those claims to get them to just not have to believe it, but just accept it, the better your offer is going to do?

Yeah, I think that's really true. And a lot of times we utilize the testimonial to do that is the video testimonial. And people watch so much reality TV that the consumer, if you come to business thinking the consumer's stupid, you should go back home. Consumer's smart, and they watch a lot of television. They're good TV producers, and they know when someone on TV is lying to them. And whether it's a testimonial or a host, you can just tell. And you have to be able to craft that out of your work and make sure that the testimonials you select really did use the product and they really do feel heartfelt about it. I have had moments that, because people get nervous when they're on TV when, you know, regular Joe comes in to do a testimonial and you turn the camera on and you start talking to them and you start to see the red welts start to come into their neck and they're shaking. I have had moments where I've winked at my cameraman and said, all right, let's turn everything off for a second and let you and I just talk about what your experience was. And you see the pressure just come off of them. And you just sit there and have a 10 or 20 minute conversation with them about what they're going to say.

Let me guess, the cameras are still rolling.

Absolutely. Yeah.

I like it.

Absolutely. Because you want that. You want that kind of versatility, that kind of truthfulness, that rawness, and you just need a few moments of those. And for most of the tough sales objections of anything, they can actually usually be overcome. If they can't become overcome with a demonstration, it can be overcome with a solid testimonial that addresses it.

That's great. Now, do you have. Are there any.

When you ask people for testimonials, are there any formulas that you use or general guidelines that you're asking them kind of questions that lead them to where they phrase it in a way that you're looking for?

You know, I ask them to use the question and an answer. That's a normal technique.

You know, please use the name of the product. But it's very difficult to get a person to say something that they don't want to say. So I don't typically go down that road. When I was new to the business, when I was new at interviewing, I used to come in with a big, long list of questions because I knew I had to hit all these sales points. And after years, you realize that doesn't get your best testimonial because people come in wanting to talk about what they want to talk about. So it becomes much more journalistic. And I typically just have a question that kind of kicks off the interview. And I listen to them. And if you listen to people, you know what the next question is to ask, and eventually you get their story. That's the best testimonial you can have is their honest story.

Yeah, that's powerful. That really is. There's a book that I read. I forget what his name was. D' Souza was his last name. But he's got a great book called the Secret Life of Testimonials, I think it's called. And it's really.

How he formulates or he tells people to formulate their questions when they're seeking testimonials and how it really is the story structure behind it that makes it so much more effective. And he likes to ask questions like.

What would have prevented you or what almost prevented you from purchasing the product or service or whatnot? Because he likes to get that. Well, I was skeptical about what Ron said because of X, Y, and Z.

But then I tried question.

Yeah. But then I tried it, and here's what I found. And then here's three more things that I found, and here's why I would recommend it to others and blah, blah, blah. But it was. I really. I got a lot out of that book. So for any listeners out there who want to understand how to.

You know, you're not scripting these testimonials, obviously, but it's a way to more effectively pull them out of people. It's a tremendous resource because there's nothing more boring than just coming across a testimonial that says, Ron lynch is great and I love everything he did and blah, blah, blah. Because it's just like a. Who cares? I assume that it's BS anyway, right? But stories really sell. Have you noticed any trends over the past 15 years or what trends I know you have.

Can I back up before we go forward?

Please do.

I want you to ask me that question, but I want to finish something on testimonials because it's a technique. It's a technique that we use. So here, let me give you a fresh edit. So I'm glad you bring that up about testimonials, Brad, because there's one more technique that's really valuable that we use in creating testimonials, and that's when we write a creative brief and we kind of have the story about the product. And let's just imagine that that story about the product is Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Do I have Goldilocks with the right person there?

I think so, yeah.

So it's Goldilocks and the three Bears. Right. And that's my story for the product. And what I'll do is give the product to 20 people, come back and I know that I need each part of Goldie Blocks and the three Bears. And I'll have a list that I tick off. And as I interview all 20 people, I'll make sure that somebody told me one element of that story. And when I go back and string the testimonials together.

Yeah, they'll tell the story. I'll have 10 people tell the Goldilocks and the Three Bears and everybody will only tell one sentence.

But by the time you stitch all those sentences together, the viewer has to assume that everybody told the same story.

So that you have 10 people that know the exact same story and they all told you the same story and you magnanimously drew that out of the 10 people that they all had the exact same experience.

That's great. Or like we like to say on this show, that is bacon wrapped. I love that. That's really, really powerful. So I was going to ask you what trends you've seen. Instead of going to ask, let me ask you that kind of quickly. What trends have you seen in the formats.

Of the creative in the past 15 years that you've been working on this? Have you seen the industry kind of go from where it's just shouting at you like Billy Mays was famous for doing, to more of the sincerity based approach or have of. Is everything still being utilized in one form or another still effectively?

I think everything is being utilized in one form effectively. The things that tend to survive the Billy Mays approach are the magical short form products. I think everybody's seen the guy that sprays the bottom of the. Puts a screen door in the bottom of the boat and puts the sealer in.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And stands in the boat.

Such a great demo.

Yeah, that's a Billy Mays approach. And so, yeah, obviously that still works, but it has to be a very unique, kind of almost gimmicky product. And I'm not saying that that product doesn't work. I've never bought it. But.

That works for those products. But the sincerity approach works. The other thing that I think, and I alluded to this earlier, that most people don't realize is how many branded products are now infomercials, how many large companies are using the vehicle of infomercial, and 30 seconds or 1 minute to sell a product, whether it's Humana Healthcare or it's Viagra.

They'Re driving you to a website to get an interaction with you. And there's the branding of infomercials and the awareness that is coming to.

These larger advertisers of realizing, oh, we can get a metric, we can actually do something that's accountable, Believe it or not, is a new idea to a lot of these companies. And when I deal with chief marketing officers of large corporations and we get into the media phase of a campaign, this is something you hear a lot. They ask about how many GRPs, how many eyeballs are seeing my spot? And in.

Just like in your world, who cares? I care how much money it makes, what did we spend for the exposure and how many sales did we get in return? I don't care if 20 people saw it or 20,000 saw it. If we only paid for 20 and we got sales like 40 saw it, I'm happy.

Success. Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you find that that's one of the hard things for bigger companies who are used to the branding based advertising to really wrap their heads around is the power of response?

Yeah, absolutely. Even when they see it, it's hard for them to believe it. And I'll give you a really great example.

We have clients in the consumer goods business and I'll bundle a couple of them together so nobody feels singled out. But we have somebody who's in the vacuum and carpet cleaner space, we have somebody who's in the skin care space, we have somebody who's in the laser body hair removal space that we've worked with. And so those people all have devices or products to sell in the marketplace. You do a long form infomercial to launch their new sku. The infomercial takes off, money's being made, and they go, wow, this is great, let's go put this in retail. And they go, put the product in retail. And they call you eight months later and go, God, we have a little bit of a cash flow problem here. We have huge inventory needs for our retail. And you know, our infomercial is dying. It's just not, it's just not pulling the numbers that it used to when we first met you guys. And you go.

Can I connect the dots there for you? And it's a hard thing because they've been doing consumer goods so long, they don't realize that that infomercial can now run at a deficit even and it's driving all that retail.

Yeah.

So you're always having to go back and Kind of restitch the quilt for them and yeah.

To remind them that, yeah, one definitely builds on the other. And it's. That's really the goal and direct response is to be able to, you know, if you can just break even on your upfront media costs, if you've got your back end and you've got your multiple channels making up for it. That's. That's really the goal.

Yeah. If you have a continuity product, all the better that you're really going to be able to do that.

Exactly. Now, kind of rapid fire, not rapid fire question, but some of these may go here, there or the other. I've heard you talk about the power of languaging in your.

Both. I've witnessed it when you were working with Drew and say, no, Drew, say it like this or say these words or whatnot. Address kind of the. Some of the power of languaging. But also, let's segue into how that differs between marketing to men and women, as hopefully my listeners know if they don't. This is a startling fact that. What is it, 80% of consumer buying decisions are made by women?

Yeah. In fact, 80% of most all buying decisions are really driven by women.

And some of the biggest ones, your house, your car, if you don't have a permissive purchase in the house, there's going to be discontent. So. And women are gatherers. They are watching this media and they're buying and they are some of our best customers on television and online. One of the. Do you want me to kind of go into the differences between men and women there?

Yeah, it was always, it was fascinating when you were talking about that at the boardroom and it was. I want to, I definitely wanted to elaborate.

Sure. So women think and operate and purchase differently than men. And there's, you know, that may sound sexist, but I didn't say it was better or worse. I just said it's different. And if you don't believe that there's a difference between men and women, well, okay, you can buy a book about that. But.

Here'S the basic premise is that women buy out of alignment. They buy out of empathy. They want. Our goal is to freely ask the consumer, this female consumer questions that open her mind and give personal information that she can emotively relate to and reflexively receive as truth.

Okay, can you, can you give any kind of an example on that?

When you, you talk about her, are you, are you happy with the way your skin looks? Have you noticed some lines and wrinkles, maybe some discolorations that have come up recently. Do you feel like you're aging faster than you want to?

Okay, her head's nodding. She's. Who wouldn't? Okay, yeah, that's about me. And, yeah, I look in the mirror every day and I see that stuff. So you've suddenly got her head nodding right now.

Are you saying that you would do it slightly differently if you were talking to a male audience about a product, or would it be this?

Absolutely. So. So that you hear kind of the empathy and the alignment where you kind of stand next to her and you look at the mountains with her and you. And you. That. That's how you speak. When you sell to a man, it's oppositional. And think about when you go on the car lot, when a man stops, steps on a car lot salesperson walks up to him, he says, are you here to buy a car? And he goes, no, really, why the hell's he on a car lot then? That we are confrontational. And with a man, it's a prove it scheme. So with women, you sell benefits and you tell her about some features, but it's benefits, benefits, benefits. When it's men, it's features. So that man goes to the car lot and it's, hey, you know What? We got 420 horsepower. This has got a V6. It's got a paddle shifter. It's got fuel injectors. It's got 668 pounds of torque. And you start having this confrontational sale. And guess what? Men respond to that. Men are. It's really easy to sell men things like, you know, tools. And they just, hey, give me the facts and let me know whether I want to buy it or not. There's. There has to be not a whole lot of emotion about it.

So how do you. I know you're not saying don't sell the benefits to the man, like, don't just sell features, but how else, like, how else can you be, like, confrontational? Like, are you almost.

I don't know why. Using examples, because I don't have any. But so I understand what you're saying about the features. I mean, just when you were telling me that kind of stuff, my brain started going like, the testosterone turned on.

If you want to look at somebody who's done a really brilliant job of it, and probably everybody's aware of this particular one. It's Dollar Shave Club.

Oh, nice.

That guy's first commercial online blew up because it was man selling to men.

Right?

That's what the Old Spice commercials are. They're funny. They're in your face. But they, do they ever speak about Old Spice not making you stink or Dollar Shave Club giving you a better shave? No, they really don't. They talk about you, the viewer, in a, in, in a, in a macho way. And it's fun and you get it. And at the end of it, Dollar Shaves Club, it's their value proposition, it's their offer.

Yeah, yeah, it really is. I like that. Yeah, I like that. My brain's going.

My wheels are spinning because I get it now and I totally see how if you're too flowery with your language, with your, you know, you're too benefit driven with men it can, it can fall flat.

Yeah. And back to women is that they want a promise of hope. They want high perceived value. They do want an offer. They want a deal just like everybody else does. No doubt about that. But typically they have something that they, and this will be the proof in the pudding that you'll instantly go, oh yeah, that's true. This is why they're the gatherers and we're not as much. There's so many women right now that are watching TV with an iPad in their lap, their phone in their lap.

Yeah. Kenya and girlfriend constantly.

Yeah, she's always shopping by the way they respond, man. They're sitting there, they're waiting for you to tell them and they're going to take that second screen and they're going to go in there and they're going to look at the, the Amazon reviews and tell whether you're telling them the truth or not.

Yep. Yeah. So they'll do their research. That's probably one of the things that's really changed when you start, since when you started is the consumer's ability to do research before just, you know, picking up the phone and calling.

Is that, I mean, you really can't afford to have completely hyped up claims anymore, no matter if you're doing TV or Internet or whatever because you know, the power is in the hands of the consumer these days.

Yeah, it's no way to build a brand. It'll be short lived if you don't actually have a good product. And that's why I say when I go back to what, what do I pick when I pick a product? I pick good products.

Go figure.

Yeah. I mean it's the easiest thing. It's, it's so difficult to sell crappy products, but it's so easy to sell good products.

Yeah, yeah. When the product kind of sells itself. That's fantastic. The, okay, so More back to selling to women. So be self from alignment and empathy. Be on her side. Acknowledge that you understand what she's going through. Probably use the language she uses. I just interviewed another marketing expert yesterday, actually, Robert Khoury, and we were talking about how one of his clients in the Health Nutritional Wellness space in Australia, and she had just tremendous results getting people on a webinar for, you know, she teaches kind of weight loss and nutrition. But she really dialed in on, like, the big, big pain point was the concept of bloating. Like, do you feel bloated when you leave the house? You know, you fit into your pants, but you come home and do you ever feel like you're exploding out of your pants and just going really for that? Oh, we get you. Yeah, those really, those really surface level, cognizant pain points. Their language.

Well, and you know, there's something brilliant in that because it doesn't use the word fat ever. You're not calling anybody fat. But if you hear the word bloated, it also lets you know you become unbloated rapidly.

Yes.

So there's an implication that the result that you can get is rapid.

Right. I mean, I felt bloated in the past. You just kind of want to take a pin and pop. I'm sure, you know, tomorrow, as of this recording, this is the day before Thanksgiving, we'll all feel bloated. We'll all want to just stick a needle in our belly and let the air out. But.

Yeah, so I really like that and I thought it was a poignant concept.

So there's two other things about men and women that I want to bring up. Where they buy and think differently.

Men are much more Pythagorean. They need it in an order. Which is why I think the way video sales letters typically work, are really good for male responding audiences is that it's a very A plus B equals see argument. Women don't think that way. They don't view TV that way. They actually have a delete button in their head and they're listening. They'll watch a whole show and they only listen to the stuff that's pertinent to them and they delete the other stuff, which is what allows infomercials to work for women so well, is it even if you have a testimonial that's not about her, she'll delete it and she'll just stitch together the six that are about her and she doesn't need them in any order because they're smarter than us. Whether you like it or not, they're smarter than us and they will stitch it together in an order that goes, yep, that's me. It pulls all my pins. I'm in. Men actually do kind of have to line it out in a little bit more breadcrumb way.

Your argument should be a little bit more ABC with men.

That's great. That's great. That's so important to know. You know, in my past, the products that I've personally sold have always been male dominated. Although I've had clients that I've worked with and helped them help script it a little bit more. Their presentations for women, Drew being one of them and other folks, I can totally see what you're saying, but I was never really cognizant of that in the past. Like, oh, yeah, if you're talking with women.

It allows us in tv because there's so many things like you say in a VSL, your CTA is at the end. In an infomercial, your CTA is at the 8 to 12 minute mark. Well, there's stuff you haven't told her yet that you really want to tell her.

It's okay. You got to let go of that pressure because if you've told, if you've given her new information along the way, she'll be very interested and she'll hang with you for the second act and for more information.

Which brings me to one other thing that comes up frequently in constructing this kind of marketing in these shows is people want to hide details. They want to say, oh, they don't need to know that or they'll be bored by that or whatever. I go to lots of focus groups and the number one thing that makes a show go from being a B show to an A show is actually more detail, less repetition, and more new information.

Really.

So that's what goes from a B to an A or an A to.

A B that comes from a B to an A. You can take a show that has little information in it, go in and find out what, what are the key components that are missing, and add more detail and more information.

And the sales would go up. People want the details.

They have said the more you tell, the more you sell. And that can be true as long as it's not. I mean, I think from my experience and that of some of my mentors, it's tell as much as you need to get everything out there without being boring, without driving people crazy. The long form sales letters and the 45 minute video sales letters are great proof people, people will See these things and think, God, who would read 25 pages of a sales letter? Well, people who are interested in what you've got.

As long as it's about them.

As long as it's about them. Right. And as long as you're not boring them and the information's good and presented. In a way, the more you tell oftentimes, the more you sell.

What are some of the infomercials out there, either now or in the past, that you haven't worked on, but are some of your favorites?

Now?

Granted.

We get into a hard part here because a favorite can be, oh, this is my favorite commercial, because I thought it was the most creative. But really, the favorite commercial should be the most effective, the one making the most money. But are there any infomercials out there that you just think are really doing it well and doing the right thing that we may not be aware of offhand?

That's a tough question. Let me think about that, because I honestly have to tell you, I make so many of these, it's hard for me to watch them. What's been.

Oh, I believe it. What's been the best one you've ever done? Which infomercial either ran the longest or made the most impact for the product?

Well, I know which one ran the longest. Without a doubt. Light Relief did with Robert Wagner Light Relief Device, which, you know, that ran for years and years.

I love the Total Trolley because it was such an inventive show and it had so many cool demos in it, and you can look it up online and find it.

Boy, it's. It's kind of. I always love the one that I'm with because I really like doing this because it's very educational for me. I get a lot of knowledge from doing every new show. So whatever I'm working on at the time is always kind of my favorite, baby. It's kind of like a filmmaker, I think.

Have there. Have there been any types of shows you'd like to make that you haven't had a chance to Offhand.

I haven't had a cooking show in a long time, and I love cooking shows. One of my favorite shows that I ever wrote, I didn't direct the show. Tara Productions did it. I wrote the show for them. However, because I was actually working on Light Relief at the time was for smartware, which was the silicone bakeware. And it was just fun to take a product that three or four companies had, like, blown millions of dollars on TV trying to sell silicone bakeware, and nobody had done it in America. Nobody had cracked the code. And we cracked that code.

What made that work?

First of all, we didn't call it silicone bakeware because it was 1512 years ago, and the word silicone was associated at that time with breast implants.

Oh, yeah.

Things, you know, like, why would you. You eat something that was cooked in silicone? That sounds horrible. People thought of leaching. So I came up with a new name for silicone, and I called it tempur Flex.

Ooh, I like it.

So, you know, carried the temperature through, and we validated the product because Subway bakes all of their bread in silicone pan. So, okay, if Subway's been doing that, then that's probably safe. And then we came up with all these cool demos and recipes that you could only do in a silicone pan. You couldn't do them in a metal pan. And.

Some things were very simple. Like, we made muffins in a pan, and because the pan's soft, you could flip the cup inside out, and you could shoot the muffins out of the pan into the air, and someone would catch them. And it was just a fun little moment in the show. And he went, oh, I want pans like that. And every woman did, and people signed up for it, and it cracked the code, and it got other companies like KitchenAid into the silicone bakeware business in.

The U.S. that's great.

Yeah.

I love stories like that, like, kind of reframing and repositioning products, offers. There's probably a lot of opportunity out there for a lot of types of household goods or products that can simply be repositioned, remarketed another way. Breathe whole new life into.

Products. That's kind of an interesting concept. I know. I see stuff on TV every once in a while going, are you serious? That's brilliant. Like, they just took this and they. I can't remember what it was. I mean, probably the most famous one of all is the Snuggie. Somebody took a robe and turned it backwards. Right, right.

Yeah, that's there. And there's a fair amount of that. We had a product once upon a time that was good for that was a very similar type of.

Cell. It was a. An air purifier. And what it actually was was it was a humidifier, but it was a clear humidifier, and you added fragrance to the humidifier, and it was a homedics product. The thing that was so interesting about that was. And.

My former partner, Rick Cesare, did the show. He's a brilliant guy, and he was just. I saw it on TV and I was like, oh, my God, this guy's so smart. So he took this. What was a humidifier, and turned it into an air purifier because the water gets dirty.

And because it's sucking in air as well. And it actually is an air filter, and it's a wet air filter in the house. And it was like, man, it makes the house smell good. It gets the dirt out of the air. And you have this effect where you see the dirt that came out of the air in this dirty water. And it was brilliant. And that's a product that's been. You know, humidifiers have been around for 100 years, so.

But now it's an air purifier.

You say, yeah. And it was. I mean, it wasn't disingenuous. It actually does clean your air. But nobody ever thought of positioning it, a humidifier, as an air cleaner.

Ah, yeah. That is brilliant.

Yeah.

Now, the.

God, there's so many questions, but let me see. I want to get to some of the other really good ones. So we've talked a little bit about, you know, the difference between, you know, selling to women, selling to men.

Talk about.

When a campaign works. Oh, you know what? Let's actually go back. There's one thing I wanted. You mentioned this at the boardroom.

And.

For folks who don't know, the boardroom is my mastermind. Ron is a member of it, and you'll hear me refer to it with some of my guests, including Ron. So just if you guys are curious. So the.

You mentioned you guys have done some testing on phrasing. This was kind of the power of language with products with the shipping offer. Right. So go ahead and tell me, or tell them.

Yeah, this is a really interesting thing, and we've done a B split testing on this, and we kind of happened upon it.

With intention. So here's the deal. You send a consumer an offer, and it. It says, hey, it's free shipping. And I don't care what the product is, just the term free shipping. Well, first of all, people believe that shipping's cheap. And secondly, they believe you're totally screwing them on the price and that you're making a profit on it. So there's a lot of bad feelings about shipping in general. And when you see an item, oh, here's one for $10, and you get a second one, just pay the shipping and processing, that really actually is a point of aggravation for the customer. And it's typically at the end of the cta, what a horrible thing to do to the customer is you got them with their wallet out and now you aggravate them. So what we learned to do was instead of saying free shipping, say, we'll pay the shipping. Now, that immediately repositions it in their mind as something of value, and it's a recognized expense suddenly. And you're doing them a favor.

So you can increase the price of your product to cover your shipping. And shipping is usually relatively cheap, depending on what it is. So you could either take the hit on the profit margin or just increase the price a little bit. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. You're better off to increase the price a little bit and repay the shipping. And you're doing something nice for a friend at that point.

Right, right. So there's a big trend. I take that back. This is not a trend. This is a proven. It's been going on for years, especially with Internet marketing of. Some people call it a tripwire. Just a free plus shipping offer just to get somebody to pull out their credit card online to make that first purchase with you. Right. I know. With Kent, my client, we do that, and it's very successful. It's like we've got this great two DVD set of all this training, and it's worth $97, but we're going to give it to you for free if you just Simply cover the $4.99 shipping and handling charge.

And I'm trying to think of the best way to kind of reframe that. I guess we could say it's worth $97, but we're discounting it to.

I don't know, five or ten dollars, and we'll even pay for shipping or we'll pay your shipping. Is that kind of how you would do that? Because if we just took off the shipping and said, we'll pay for that, now we're losing money on everyone that takes this.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to think of different ways to do that. I guess you could say, look, we're going to have a reason for knocking the price down to next to nothing, but then say, we'll pay your shipping, too.

So, yeah, this is. And for the listener, this is not something that Brad and I talked about in advance. So here's what my gut reaction to that is. I'd rather see you drop the price to 19.95.

Yeah.

And instead of going all the way to zero or go to 49.95 or 39.95 or whatever, and. And not discount the product so much.

You just pay for the shipping.

Yeah. And then say we pay the shipping. So we got a hundred dollar product, we're going to give it to you for $19.95 and we're going to pay the shipping.

Yeah, I really want to try that because especially for all of the digital marketers out there who are selling the $5 basically free plus shipping offer. So assuming nobody takes your upsells, you've got a $5 customer value. It could be $20. Pay for the shipping. You could. You're quadrupling your customer value. And as long as you don't cut your. I mean, your conversion numbers could fall in half because you quadrupled your customer value. I'm going to try that. That's definitely split testable strategy. Yeah.

And that's the thing. You should test everything. And you should also be careful about what the entire school of fish are doing. Because if you're doing the same thing that everybody else is doing.

You know, how's the consumer gonna react? Or what are they now that you're just choosing between you and a bunch of other people. If you do something that's unusual, that typically gets people, people's attention, things that they haven't heard before, you know what, we'll drop it from $100 to $19.95 and we'll pay the shipping. And if you don't get X out of your experience with this, we'll refund your $19.95 because you're gonna get five times right.

Speaking of that, Black Friday's in a couple of days and I forget what it was last year. I can't remember who it was or exactly how they did it, but they talked about how they decided to raise the price on Black Friday.

And they.

Let their people know just to. It was a relatively big brand. It wasn't some little marketer. I think I read about this. But they raised their price on Black Friday just because, oh, you know who it Was? I'm almost 99% sure it was the game Cards Against Humanity. Oh, you ever played that game? I think it was them. I could be totally wrong. Somebody can Google this. But I thought it was genius. They just wanted to zig. When everybody was zagging, they go, hey, Instead of paying 10 bucks this Friday, you can pay us 20. And it was a gimmick, but I think it was remarkably successful because people are like, yeah, you got balls.

Well, and it got their name out there. And everybody knows this is game season.

Yep.

People buy games around the holidays. That's when they're sold. So that's. That's brilliant.

Have you played that game, by the way?

I did. And just for your, for your hack viewers, just so you know, you can download it for free. You can actually download the game for free from Cards Against Humanity and take it to Kinko's or to Isn't that brilliant? And print it out.

And so, yes, I thought that was brilliant. They drove so many sales by doing that exact same thing, saying, listen, you can, if you're willing to go through the, the inconvenience of downloading it and printing it, go ahead. Otherwise, just buy it and we'll send it to you. And I mean, that's. It's one of those tricks.

And by the way, I didn't do that because I'm cheap. I did it because they were out of stock and I wanted it that way.

Right.

But I just remember seeing that, thinking, it's genius. And when I went to their website and I bought it, I was like, I'm just going to pay for it because I thought that was so brilliant. I'm going to pay for it anyway just to give you the cash. But it was. I love it when people do those innovative things that, like you said, it gets attention. Nobody else is really doing that. I mentioned him a second ago. Robert Khoury, who I just interviewed, is doing that with a book that he's got called Feed a Starving Crowd. If you go to feedastarvingcrowd.com you can see it. But he's got a great book of tons of marketing ideas. And at the bottom, the call to action is, look, opt in, I'll give you the PDF for free, or you can get the physical one for free plus shipping, but $9 in shipping and then there's another $99 product out there for a little bit of price. Decoy. But it's genius. You want to get it for free, you can also buy it. And he says you'd be surprised at how many people actually buy it even though they can download it for free.

Anyway. We've kind of diverged from that initial strategy, but I love that. And like you said, you've tested it. We'll pay for your shipping.

Oh, you're doing this for me versus. Oh, you just pay shipping. I can see how that would work. So definitely a split test coming and I cannot wait to share the results with you on that.

You mentioned that in the past something like 70 or 80% of sales would come from the TV spot and another 20 or 30% would come from web sales, but that's changed dramatically recently. Isn't that what you said?

Yeah. In fact, when the web first came around, that number was as low as 15% at the beginning. Now we get. We get 70 to 80% of sales come from the Web. And it's for all the one.

The world shifted and people now trust purchasing on the web. There was a day when people didn't want to put their credit cards online, but now people have gotten accustomed to that and they feel safe with that. They feel like they have somebody they can return the product to.

So companies have done a good job of giving the consumer confidence in that. One of the things that I see as a big driver in that shift is one, there, the ability to do research online and see reviews, and two, the ability to not talk to a person in the call center. A lot of people are afraid of calling now because they don't want to get upsold or they don't want to spend 20 minutes on the phone. They know how to point and click and buy something, and so that's what they do. You just have to make sure when you're dealing with a contact consumer goods company that they're giving you the adequate credit for that with your doctor TV spend that you aggregate all of your sales, even retail, and make sure that you know that what you're spending on TV is coming back to you from a lot of shores, not just the one TV shore.

Right. When you are, let's say you've got a product out and you've got a web presence, but then you've also. Some people may stumble across it just because they're googling it. But do you have typically two different websites set up, one for the call to action from the, from the show and one for kind of stumble across traffic in order to track that or how do you typically.

No, that's the. You can track stumble across traffic to.

A landing page as well. And you do it associated with your, with your TV metrics when you air spots and you do it with the zip code tracking.

Oh, nice. Yeah. Because you'll know you can cross reference. We know that.

Yeah, you just cross reference. It's really. There's lots of, of software that just tells you where they came from.

Okay. And then. So that may. Yeah, that makes it much more important. Like we said, people are going to do research. They're going to watch the thing on tv. I mean, I do this, I'm going to immediately go take a look at it. I'm going to look at it online and maybe see if it's on Amazon as well. Do you do, when you're selling, I guess let's just say consumer goods, you put those typically on for fulfillment on your website, but do you also put them on Amazon as well? Do you do both channels?

Depends on the product and the distribution that they have set up. One of the challenges with Amazon, unless you have your own Amazon store and you can control the pricing.

You don't want to cannibalize your own pricing because the algorithm of Amazon will always undersell you. And with Amazon prime, suddenly you got free shipping. So you're driving people intentionally to Amazon. It's just, and I can say, see, I can make an argument of a reason why to do that as well, is to take fulfillment out of your process and give it to somebody who's a trusted fulfillment agent. So it's just, it just has to be a cognitive decision. You have to understand the financial metrics of it and make the decision that's right for you. I have clients that do both and I have some clients where the product might be prescriptive, it might be medical. So you can't fulfill it through Amazon. You actually can only fulfill it directly yourself.

Okay, that makes sense. Now when a company. Let's say I've got a product that. Yeah, let's say it's a physical product and I'm selling it. Think of a good hypothetical example here. And I've got a decent amount of web sales. Let's say I've sold, oh, $100,000 on the web. So I've proven that it's a product, it works. I've got, you know.

Fulfillment, etc.

Let's make it up. Let's say Brad's Orthotic Shoe.

Cool.

Brad's Unique Orthotic shoe. You've sold 100,000 of them on the web.

Okay, great. Now I think that there's an opportunity here to go into Dr. TV and branch out. What is.

Kind of the low end of the budget that I can potentially in order to have a quality show, not something that I film with my iPhone. Right. But maybe I can't afford to do the highest end stuff, but low to medium end effective to get a test to get it out there. What kind of budget should I typically have like $100,000 in the bank or.

50.

That doesn't have to be for a long form, that could be a short form. I immediately want to ask the penetration question of is the assumption that it, that the quality makes a difference because sometimes the poorer the quality, the better the difference. It could be. We could do a spot for Brad's orthotic shoes where we go to the mall and all we shoot is people trying their shoes and your shoes and come up with a good demonstration of how much better balance they have.

Right. I mean, you got those. What was it, the P90X commercials, which were all the little home testimonials shows. Yeah, probably very low production cost, but very high, highly effective.

Hey, the very first P90X commercial, if you go back and look at it, it's the four founders of the company. That's who's in the commercial. It's a half hour show about the four founders of the company doing the program. Because they didn't have any testimonials.

I'll be darn.

It was fantastic.

That's great. I like that. Yeah, so those. Yeah, so that's definitely. Yeah, so that's definitely probably a good way to go if you've got something that really has had effects on people going, yeah, sincere and authentic and low, low quality that can be put together kind of quickly. But when it comes to.

So about. About 50,000 should get.

The way I break that down, Brad, is 20,000 of it for your production and your editing for the spot. 10 to $15,000 for the media to test it and the rest on fulfillment, call center and merchant processing. Those pieces, the setup of those pieces that you'll have to do to actually take the orders via television. So to rough it out, that that's about as low as it can go.

And then, you know, I've made infomercials that are a million dollars. I've made them that are $300,000. I've made long form shows that are $175,000. And actually I did somebody bring to me what I thought was a very long PowerPoint presentation. That's what it felt like, was a bunch of photography, some testimonials and photographs. And it was.

It was difficult to watch.

And for $70,000, we took their existing assets, went out and shot for maybe a day or two and then did some really quality editing. And I'm not going to tell you what the product is because the show's on the air right now.

And it's in the tool category and it is killing it.

That's great.

And I mean, I don't think that all in all, these guys spent more than.

Maybe $100,000 on this show and it is killing it.

That's. That's fantastic. What do you, what do you Consider killing it. And. Well, what. Because what can people, you know, typically expect?

I'll tell you, it's. If you, if we operate in what, you know, an MER media efficiency ratio, if you spend $1,000 in media, how many products do you, do you sell in relationship to that? We just build a fraction out of that. Yep. So a 1.0 is I spent 1,000 and I sold 1,000. Fair enough.

And that's. Now that's not ROI. That's.

No, that's $1,000.

Had a thousand units.

Yeah. So that's a 1.0. So if you're doing a 2.0, you're doing great. And I have clients and shows that we've built like this that are out there that are doing 3.0s and 4.0s that were not really expensive shows. Now, mind you, they don't have huge media budgets because they're very specified products. They might be in hunting or fishing or tools. But because there's a specified media channel where I can get to that consumer, we can run media on that. Maybe we can run 10,000, 20,000, 50,000 a week. And every time they spend $50,000, they sell $200,000 worth of product.

That's. Yeah. And the profit margin.

That's killing it.

That's killing it. It really is. Now, the profit margins, you alluded to this earlier, but in order to have a product, let's just, we'll call it a $20 product or whatever that you're selling online. I'm not online, but on drtv, what kind of profit margin should you probably have before you even look into doing a spot like this?

Now, are you saying that the markup, the sale price is $20 or the cost of goods is $20?

Let's say sales price. And we can use any number. But, but in general, and I know it probably is a range, if you have $100 or $200 product versus something sub 100, it probably changes. But what kind of markup should somebody have? I mean, obviously the lower the margin, the harder it's going to be. But.

It depends on what the product is. Again, I hate to have that be the answer to everything. Let's use a tool. Let's use a tool. So you want a five times markup on that. You want that tool to have. Cost you three bucks to make, and you're gonna sell it for 20, 1995.

Perfect.

And that that can be done. And there's, there's people that have done it for years in the tool business. You've probably seen lots of tool ads around Christmas of magic screwdrivers and pliers and, and cutters and things like that. Sharpeners.

Okay, so then the $3, that's the cost of goods. Yeah. So that's the cost to produce it and fulfill it or just to basically produce it.

As the. Just to produce it. Okay, so I got it. Let's say I have a factory in China. It gets landed in Los Angeles for $3. I can go out on TV and sell that for 19.95. If I have upsell products with it that are good, I might be able to get a little bit. Have an expectation of having a little bit more cost of goods at the front end.

Okay, that makes sense.

I'm trying to generate a phone call for 19.95, but that doesn't mean that that person leaving for 1995 right now.

You just segued perfectly into one of the big questions that I had. Backend marketing. So as consumers, you know, we only get to see. Unless we're buying everything out there under the sun, which I've thought about doing. Like, I want to see what their sales funnel looks like. I just want to buy so they sell me more shit. But that's the part that most consumers or marketers who are just seeing the surface level don't get to see. I want to find out some of the secrets behind back end marketing, especially coming from the world of information marketing. There's a million things that you can tack on, but I've always wondered, okay, somebody's selling a tool, somebody's selling a kitchen gadget. Tell me about some of the more effective back end campaigns or back end funnels that you've.

So the thing that makes a backend funnel work the best is flexibility after that phone call's initiated. So the consumer has an idea of what your core offer is. So, sure, you want to go up and you want to collect more money from them and you want to give them more product. So it's either, hey, we're going to supersize your offer, or we're going to supersize your product. Rug Doctor has been a client and they sell the regular Rug Doctor that you can rent at the grocery store. That's a product you can actually purchase. Well, they also have a wide track machine that's bigger, faster, more horsepower. They have a variety of soaps and goos that go in those machines. Then conversely, say the consumer calls and they go, wow, I saw the Rug Doctor commercial and I saw that it has an introductory offer of $49 and I'm finding out that the retail price is a little bit higher than I can afford. They actually have another product they can move you down to. They have Rug Doctor spot cleaner. That's $179 product that they can move you down in that direction. So smaller offers.

Because you paid for the phone call, as the marketer, you want to sell them something.

So having the flexibility to go up and down is really critical to long term success. Then the next layer is line extension of product. Then the next layer is continuity. I don't typically see anybody succeed with more than three upsells. Right.

I see the same thing in online as well. It's really hard to get people to buy more than three things.

Yeah. And I guess one of the other things is that if the upsells relate to the user group.

That'S key and it doesn't necessarily have to relate to the product.

And I'll give you, for instance.

Backjoy is a product that I launched. We sold over a million units. And it's an orthotic thing you sit on that corrects your posture and you can get up from your chair and feel great at the end of the day.

I actually bought a couple of them when Kenya and I moved from Dallas to San Diego. We bought a couple of those, sat in those on the way and it was great.

It's an amazing, it is a very simple, amazing product.

When you buy one, there's the opportunity to buy another one, but there's also the opportunity to buy the backjoy pillow. And there's Bacjoy shoes. They're orthotic shoes. So they recognize that their category is actually pain relief. And so they sell things up and down in the channel that are appropriate to pain relief. And they're all good products. No, they don't get. They have zero disappointment from customers.

That's. That's fantastic.

And that's something to think about. If you just slap something onto your offer because you want to make more revenue and it's a crappy thing. Guess what it does to your.

Brings it down.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

You want your, you want the back end products to really, really enhance what you're doing and kind of blow them away and oftentimes be even more exciting than the first offer. Do you see? Very often. And I guess this kind of depends on the market or the product that you're selling. But let's say the front end product is not an information IP style like home study, course book, cd, DVD set. Do you see much information products being Used in the back end marketing for physical products ever. Do you not really see people offering things like that?

Yeah, no. It's offered all the time and we do it all the time. I'll tell you that just like what snapped into my mind when you said that is supplements. In the supplement world, one of the best things you can sell is a book from the person who created the supplement.

Right.

It reinforces the sale. Okay, I saw the show about the supplement, I buy the supplement, and then you give them IP that makes them smarter about the supplement. And you've not only sold them something of value to them, which is knowledge, but you've also helped with your continuity down the line.

Do you see a lot of supplement. Sorry to interrupt. Do you see a lot of supplement companies or a lot of companies like that actually doing that? Or is that something that really only a handful of people that, to your knowledge, are on top of?

I would say that 40% of the people that are in the supplement business with me do that.

Right. The smart ones, obviously, well, they got.

To have the book or the product too. Not all of them get to that business with the book. So sometimes there's people that are busy writing books while we're busy making their show.

That makes sense. This question just kind of came to my mind and it kind of relates to that. But what do you think are some of the biggest opportunities right now based upon the state of the market, where you see it's going, the industry, etc. Do you see any big opportunities for entrepreneurs or marketers to cash in? One of the first things that just came to my mind was there's probably people out there with a lot of great ip. Drew was a perfect example of it. Drew Canole is big in the juicing world.

For information products. The original partnership was going to be, look, I'll be the spokesperson for your juicer and then utilize his IP to help enhance that. But I know a lot of my colleagues, friends, listeners, etc. Are experts with IP. And I always just wonder if there's opportunity to partner with certain companies to provide IP when they don't have it. If they're just selling products, Yeah, I.

Think that there is a real opportunity for that. There's people that need it, and it presents a bond to that customer for the company it also provides. Because I know so many of these IP properties can be turned into continuity products and be parceled out to them. But actually, one of the things that I see in your space that I'd love that your folks hear is that IP is one of the easiest things to sell if you have the story straight and the courage to do it. They're relatively inexpensive shows to produce, and they're highly profitable because you're selling ip. William Randolph Hearst sold publishing. That's what you guys are selling. It's a matter of fear. That's the number one thing that I go to a lot of Internet marketing events, and people want to talk to me about how could they sell their thing? And you talk to them and they go, gosh, I don't know if I could spend 20,000 or 30,000 or $50,000. And then you ask them what they're making, and they'll tell you that they're making 50 grand a month.

What are you waiting for? And it's a mind. It's a block in their mind because they don't know how to do it. And they know. It's like being a computer programmer. If you know how to be a computer programmer, you really know that. So how could you make a TV show? It's not difficult. You just haven't done it. And the people who have had the courage to do it.

I mean, everybody who's on TV who's ever sold IP had to get over that mental hurdle, and they're hugely successful. You know, Dean and his real estate project on TV has been millions and millions and millions of dollars. And Dean wasn't a TV producer. He's just a smart real estate guy who went, heck, one of his shows was a GoPro camera in his car.

Right. I remember that.

He drove around for a half an hour in his car and sold a real estate infomercial product. And it's a great product, and he did a great job. But you want to talk about a show that's inexpensive to produce, that thing must have cost him 28 bucks to produce.

I know. It's. It's so. It can be so easy if you. But it came from Dean's authenticity.

Yeah. And it's compelling. It's. Yeah, exactly. Sincere and it's compelling.

Right. Now, this is a. I'll just broach this topic. I'll let you know, the listeners guess at what the rest of it is. But did you talk to Adam much about our friend Adam Lyons, about.

His workings with Yahoo on the video production?

No.

Okay. We'll have to talk about this offline. And to tell Adam about this, this is some pretty cool stuff. Bottom line is, if there's any listeners out there with a product and you're spending a highly significant amount of money let's just say half a million to a million or more on ads like on Google or ideally Yahoo. Bing. Send an email to ask bradakenratbusiness.com let me know. Might have some cool opportunities there for you. That being said, starting to diverge folks.

But no, I actually just wrote that down myself. I'm going to email you about it later.

Yeah, cool.

Yeah. So I was just asking for any other, like if you thought of any other big opportunities for folks out there based upon the state of the industry, the way things are changing. I know that at the boardroom, Kevin Harrington was there and he was speaking about how media costs and other things have brought down the ability to make a profitable infomercial as much these days. And obviously, I think you said you have nine shows airing right now running. Are you seeing much? Are you seeing a major change in the economics of making this affordable? Or do you see it going up, down, sideways?

I think that the margins are thin, but the margins have always been thin. Media is more expensive, there's more channels. But again, if you looked at that as a glass half full, you'd say there's more channels that I can actually find a specific type of viewer on.

Find the product that matches that viewer and then make the show that's appropriate for that customer. So there's been this expansion and contraction kind of thought of, gee, there's so many channels, it's going to cost too much. Well, I look at the channels as saying, hey, when we launched GoPro, I went, hey, let's look at 13 channels and 13 creatives and we're going to make a channel. For now, I'm going to talk about networks that were around at that moment when GoPro launched. Let's make a car racing commercial with Nick Woodman, the CEO of and put it on the Speed Network. Let's make a boat racing commercial and put it on Sunday mornings between the fishing shows. Let's make a motocross and make sure that that goes on in the afternoons when motocross is happening on ESPN2. And so those are some peripheral networks that are a little bit cheaper, but the creatives identically match the viewer. So business is business. It's always tough. You always have to be smarter, you always have to be more innovative. There's no easy path, but it's not that difficult because people are doing it. Get something that people want. Don't be another me too. Go be unique.

Yeah, I agree with you. And you know, when you think about the economics are changing, there's a There's a balance. Like, one thing rises, the other thing falls. So, yeah, it may be more expensive to do certain types of media, but now there's, you know, when it comes to tv, there's all those other types of channels, and you can just get specific. Like, back in the 20 years ago, you were advertising on three to five, 10 channels or whatever, and now you've got a whole bunch. You can just get much more specific and dialed into your audience, just like with Facebook. Now with the demographic targeting and psychographic targeting, you can get really, really specific to people who just want your stuff really, really badly.

So I agree, and I say find better stuff.

Right.

If you asked me 20 years ago, what's a good pair of shoes cost? I'd go 80 bucks. Now you ask me what a good pair of shoes cost. 450 bucks.

Exactly.

And it's not because of. It's because the market's changed, not because I've changed. It's just that's what a good pair of shoes cost, you know, and it's. What's a good car cost? It's just. It's good. Go find better stuff to sell. Yeah.

It still blows me away. We're talking about that. With jeans. You know, jeans always used to be $50. Darn, that's a nice pair of jeans.

Yeah.

And now you go to the store, it's like, I know this is $180, and this is on sale today.

Yeah. No, I swear, I want. My wife works at Nordstrom's.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. I walked through Nordstrom's with her the other day, and she picked out three pairs of pants, and I just about had a heart attack. The pants. Pants are $180 a pair.

Yeah. And they don't come stuff with cash. Like, that's okay.

I'll come back to my rock.

Right.

It's crazy. But sell better stuff.

Right?

Don't be a bottom feeder. Be a top feeder.

Exactly. Now, Ron, what is. So you've got. You work with clients right now, Everybody from Fortune 500 companies to entrepreneurs who've got their product. And I know you've got a new agency that you've recently started, Big Baby.

Big Baby. And based here in Austin.

So we're focused on doing, I think, probably more so than the rest of our industry. And that's how. Frankly, how you and I got to know each other is tying my industry more directly to the Internet industry, because that is where the future is. That's where the present is. It's just most of my Industry hasn't even caught up to the present. And so we're looking at more integrated strategies and integrated campaigns and utilizing, like I say, it's expensive to make an infomercial sometimes and you collect a lot of assets that you don't have time to use on tv. And the Internet is a great place to use those assets and collect more individuals from individual sales and searches on the Internet.

Tell me about those assets you're talking about. Number one is obviously you've got the creative that you can use in all different types of places from YouTube marketing or whatever and videos that can be syndicated and dispersed out there on the web. Are there any other types of assets you're referring to that.

Yeah, there's tons of testimonials. I mean typically I shoot 60 to 80 hours of footage to make a 30 minute infomercial.

Wow.

So that's. There's a lot of stuff on the editing floor for you to go through as far as technical testimonials or longer testimonial stories. Kind of more.

Humanity focused stories on people. I might talk to somebody for 20 minutes and only use one sentence that they said, but they all have a story. So then I have 20 or 30 good stories that are two to five minutes long that make great sales pieces.

Yeah, that's cool. So the next question is what, and I'll phrase it directly to this. What are some of the nuts you're trying to crack right now?

Especially when you're, when you're starting up a new agency. I'm sure you're spinning a lot of plates and getting everything kind of rolling. But maybe specifically as it relates to.

Creating more integration with.

Web and e commerce integration, what's some of the nuts you're trying to crack there? I ask for selfish reasons because I may be able to help you, but there may be some listeners out there as well who could be a wealth of resources.

I think that finding the paths, you know, there's a lot of folks out there that are getting really good at specifics like Google in particular or Yahoo in particular or Facebook in particular, or YouTube in particular. And what we're finding is that that's not only are there experts in those fields, but then there's subsets by product category. And for me, that's what I would like to collect is that I have a go to person for YouTube that knows how to sell nutraceuticals or that knows how to sell IP or that knows how to sell garden tools, whatever the heck it is, and that there be a person on Facebook that knows that category and how to find that consumer. And there's some people that overlap, but I find that those things are becoming such specialties that people really are channel specialists. So just aligning myself with those specific channel folks that work on an ROI basis that are interested in going in and going, hey, yeah, I get your product and I know how to sell it, and here's what I would like as a cut from the sale. When your client sells one that's valuable, that's great.

Well, luckily, I may be able to help you out on some of that. I've got a lot of good resources and people that maybe we can create some collaboration and help you do that, because I think you're. I've seen your work, and it's awesome. Speaking of your work, let's talk about some of the clients that Big Baby is looking for. Big, small, in between.

Tell me about kind of your ideal client profile here.

For me, it kind of goes back to what I said earlier. It's innovation.

Okay.

That is what I'm looking for. Number one is innovation is somebody who's got a product that is completely unique in the marketplace or they think might be that with a little bit of proper positioning, possibly could be something that they've sold, something that, you know, has some consumer data behind it that we know kind of who likes it and why. I don't typically do a lot of inventor stuff anymore, only because, frankly, I don't have to. It's very, very, very laborious to go through that process. People do hire me as a consultant early on in their businesses, if they're in the. If they're funded and they're doing a new device or product. Like, I have a client that's in the beauty space and they're, you know, they're well funded, and we're actually designing and building the product from the ground up. So that's not going to be an infomercial for another 18 months.

Right. But they'll work with you on helping to frame it out correctly and set it up for success later on.

Exactly. I know how to name the product. I know how to help design because I have a background in design. The device itself, what the components of a complete offer are for that product so that there's a desire to purchase and even down to how to build the right box for it, stuff that you wouldn't normally think a person who makes infomercials does, and the financial mechanics behind it. So I look for different things like that. So innovation, people that are in development that are funded, that have something that's headed towards innovation. And then I get a lot of folks too that either have broken infomercials or marketing things that worked for a couple years and no longer do and they don't know how to, to move them or they have a brand that's been successful for years and they're looking to get into direct response advertising as a way to do self funded.

Ventures.

Like SC Johnson did a project with me last year. And you'd think that the people that make Windex have all the money in the world and they probably do. But there's within these kind of corporations, there's individuals who have what I'd call pet projects that the company's funding and they say, hey, you can do this, but you got to find a way to pay for the advertising. And it may look like Windex on the outside, but on the inside it's kind of nuts and bolts basic how do we launch this and how do we make it work?

So it's like little entrepreneurial ventures inside bigger companies.

Exactly.

There's a lot of financial concern constraints, but they want to make it work. That's great. So when it comes to somebody hiring you to say, all right Ron, we're ready to go, ideally I'm just kind of recapping for you here and then fill in any holes. Somebody like you said, they're not just necessarily starting up unless they're starting up with a huge budget. They don't mind throwing it your way. But ideally they have some consumer data.

It's a good product, it's innovative, there's kind of a good USP that you can get behind. You're not just selling another butter knife that is like any other butter knife. Right.

And it can be a physical product, it can be information products. So IP experts, people who have things that they want to kind of, I mean, there's no real better way to get some dramatic, I guess what you call celebrity branding or social proof than to appear on television. If for nothing else. That's tremendously powerful and like you said, done in the right format, like the, almost like a TED Talk or a presentation style show. It doesn't have to look the least bit cheesy, it doesn't have to look the least bit pushy or your typical infomercial look like a talk show.

And so you'll work on producing the entire thing, managing, you know, helping with the financial, the mechanics and doing all that. But you'll also work as a consultant for people who, if they're not quite ready, but they need some guidance. You can.

There's some opportunities there to work with you. I'll tell. Kind of direct this next statement to the listeners out there. Yes. Look, if you. And I know I've got some pretty big people who have great products listening to this who may have always thought that infomercials were out of their range, but this should appeal directly to you to reach out to Ron and say, Ron, look, here's what I've got. I don't know if it's, you know, if, if I could take this to Dr. TV and if it would be profitable, etc. But I'd like to potentially work with you because I heard you on the best damn podcast ever, Bacon Ratties.

Amen.

Yeah. And.

And I want to know. So I like that, that there's the opportunity to kind of. Of use some of your consulting expertise to help people align themselves for success. And I'm going to make some introductions to you, Ron, for some other people who may even have a bigger list of those folks out there, that's cool. Yeah. And it may definitely help you there. So if people want to get in contact with you right now and they want to say, Ron, I heard you on bacon wrap business. It was amazing and I want to give you money for just being cool or for helping me out, either one. How would they get ahold of you?

What's the best way you can contact me directly@ronigbabyagency.com I do love that big baby.

You can't say that and not just get a great visual. Like you said, you're good at naming products and things.

Yeah, no, I want people to remember it. It's something you don't have to say twice.

Have you got your logo done yet?

We're working on that right now.

I can't wait to see that one. That'll be good.

That'll be fun. It'll be fun again. The end game doesn't have to be television for you. If you know that you have a product and you have a consumer at the other end and you're trying to build a communication strategy to them. I think we've said enough about marketing to men and to women to hopefully jar that there is a difference and you should be speaking to them differently. But still, personally, I'd be happy to help people with that.

That's great. And I think anybody who takes you up on that offer, I'm telling you guys right now, you'll be in good hands. You can tell if you've made it this far through Ron and I actually me picking Ron's brain because this is the stuff I wanted to know, folks, not just for you. Every question. I've read the book a couple times. I've seen Ron work and there's still a lot of unanswered questions that I had. And Ron, you did an amazing job filling in some of those gaps and get me excited for some of the other possibilities out there. Ron's book that he co authored and I know you're going to be working on another one bringing one out. But buy now. Creative marketing that gets customers to respond to you and your product is an amazing book written with your former partner of yours.

Is it bigbabyagency.com I know you're working on the. The website right now. I mean this is literally brand new that you've just started your own agency.

We're just launching it.

Yeah, that's great.

Big agency, great.

Ron, is there anything else I can do for you? Anything else you're looking for out there either for my listeners or for me or whatever? Now's your chance.

Hey, no, if it's. I'm kind of like you. I feel the same way. It's. I like to help and that's what makes this business fun. If you've got something that, that you think I don't know that you'd like to share with me, let by all means connect with me. I like new people and I like new ideas. And.

Let'S go forward and this is the best damn sizzling show on the Internet.

Yeah, got that on record. We're gonna just plaster that all over the interwebs. All right, guys, girls, actually let me rewind that because, you know, Ron told me and I know better. I'm not talking to guys and girls. I'm not talking to a big group of people. I'm talking to you individually. Insert your name here. I really hope that you've enjoyed this episode of Bacon Wrap Business. It is by far the longest episode I've had and it's on purpose. It's been honestly my favorite. I've gotten to, you know, get 15 years of knowledge.

Out of Ron and you guys have too. And it's, you know, I'm really appreciative for Ron for doing this. I'm really appreciative for you for listening. And hopefully you've taken a lot of notes. You can obviously go to the. Go to the blog page or the show notes on this. I'm going to have a transcript available for you and everything else that Ron mentioned, including his contact information. One of the best things you can do for me because if you appreciate this, the way to give back, I'm not charging you for this. Although I never wanted to feel, I want you to feel like you stole some great IP from me. It was that good. But the way you can repay me is share the show, tell your friends, share it on social media, tag me in it, let me know Twitter or Facebook, you can find me on both of the sites. I really love it when you share and when you give me feedback. So if there's any topics you want me to cover, any questions I didn't ask, any people that you want me to interview, send an email to askbradbaconwrappedbusiness.com I read every single one. Just like I read all the reviews. And if you even just want a second opinion on the marketing strategy that you're working on now or you'd like me to connect you with a previous guest because you think that they could help you out, let me know. Send that email to askbradaconrapbusiness. Keep those reviews and emails coming and keep listening. Ron, thank you very much for being on the show today. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed it and look forward to working with you on projects in the future.

I'm sorry I chewed up so much of your time, but hell no, it was really fun.

I'm just. I'm just glad we were able to. So, guys, thanks for listening. Till next time, we are over and out. See you later.

Ciao.

Sam.