Starbucks Barista To Superstar Team Leader

You know, if you give people a paycheck, they're gonna, you know, that's like one level. But if you're able to really impact their lives, help them reduce pain or, you know, increase, um, their status or, you know, whatever someone needs, um, you'll stay with them forever. I mean, like, what Starbucks was able to do for me is why I was there for so long.

Welcome to the Chet Black Live Podcast, where I sit down with only proven tested leaders from the marketplace who share with you exactly what they are doing, so that after watching or listening, you can go out and take some action and have some things happen. Um, my privilege is to be with my friend an elite team leader, Todd Denman of the Denman Group in Boston. How are you, brother?

I'm doing awesome. How you doing, John?

I'm doing good. I'm so glad we were talking before we came on live. It was like, you know, you got any energy for this thing, man? You're just coming off that big event you did, and we'll chat a little bit about that. Um, got a couple hundred people, uh, did an event out agnostic to the marketplace and went really, really well. So, but, but let's So, let's dive in. And I think what, especially now more than ever, what the one thing we do know is the only shortcut in business or life is finding someone that's done something that we have not yet done and just following along. And I don't know, one of your just core foundational principles, contributions. So, let's do that and let's do this. Let's go back. I like to tilt it the backstory just a little bit. I think a lot of times people talk about this backstory forever. Just take us on a couple of minutes of when you got in real estate, what were you doing before, and then kind of the trajectory of where you're at today.

Yeah, I think the way to weave how I've gotten to today best is to say I grew up with a contractor for a father who was blue-collar, feast or famine. We had really good months, years. We had really bad months, years. I had tremendous— I had and have tremendous respect for my father and the work that he did. But I also saw the struggle and, and felt the struggle financially and with him being around or not being around depending on the season. And I, I ended up hopping into a job at Starbucks as a high schooler on a whim and just didn't know what I was in for. And, and 13 years later at Starbucks, I, um, I'd gone from barista to, um, being the manager of, uh, some of the busiest stores in New England. It's where I met my wife, um, and, uh, we used Starbucks stock to buy our first house. And, um, yeah, I mean, what lives in me today with Starbucks is seeing the type of business my father was running on one hand and then seeing the type of business that Starbucks was running at the time and just the operational principles, the leadership, the culture. I mean, I felt like I got a master's degree over the course of 13 years in, you know, customer service, management, HR. Efficiencies, you name it. And it wasn't until I was, you know, I got, I got up to that level where I was going to be taking over multiple stores and it was going to be a couple of year wait. And I just had that entrepreneurial, that little bone in my body, probably from my dad, that was like, you got to try something, you got to do something on your own. And so, yeah, the real estate agent who helped my wife and I buy that first condo with Starbucks stock, it was just her and her husband. And so I joined their little team as the third wheel, and, uh, we were off to the races. I, um, I really wasn't sure if I wanted to get into real estate because I felt— I'm sure a lot of realtors will empathize with this— but I felt like it was going to be douchey.

And that's not a cool— that's not a professional job. You're just gonna be a car salesman, looked like, in that barrel of monkeys, right?

Yeah. And you know what I did, John, which, which I was just having this conversation with someone who's in the midst of a career change because, you know, I was a musician for a long time. I was a Starbucks manager for a long time and then becoming a realtor. Like, those are identity changes and those are making an identity change like that is hard because you worry if you're going to be stepping into the right shoes and you worry what people are going to think and, and all that. And What I did to try to get out of my mind when I— to get out of that kind of, you know, they say like it's hard to read the label from inside the bottle— is I did an exercise where I put all the opportunities. I knew I wanted to get out of Starbucks and get out of retail. I didn't know what was next. And so, I wrote a personal mission statement and I wrote that first. And the personal mission statement that I wrote was I want to positively impact as many people professionally as I can. Because I knew that that was— after my time at Starbucks, I knew that that was something that really lit me up. And then I had some other components of the next opportunity that were going to be really important to me, like, you know, compensation that met my effort. I wanted to be my own boss. But I, but I basically made a grid and I scored all the opportunities and, and then I rated them. And being a real estate agent won. And so yeah, it scored the highest. And I was like, I still had that thing in the back of my head that was like, you don't want to be a douchey realtor though. But then I was like, wait a minute, I don't need to be a, you know, not to say that realtors are douchey, but that's my— I was, you know, and I know a lot of people have that, that, uh, feeling about real estate agents. And, um, I immediately saw that as a huge opportunity. I was like, like when we think about what douchey means, it's like smarmy, it's salesy, it's pushy. It's just—

we can see the picture in our head.

Yeah. And I, when that, you know, when I was able to get that clarity that I should go try it out, I just, I just stepped into it full time and I just—

the first year like, and how did, how did you generate business in your course? You were— oh, that's right. You did. The smart thing, I think you went to a team where there were opportunities for you immediately. Did they have a lot of opportunities or was it more of a training team environment?

I know this was a small husband and wife team. Lisa Santana had helped my wife and I buy, so we were just like good friends. And she actually called me as a, as a past client to check in on me. Found out that I was looking for a career change. They invited me out to dinner. So, you know, goes to show you that past client outreach can really pay dividends. And, uh, yeah, we got dinner. And, and, um, so when I started with them, I got my license and I, I had been working, you know, most of you who have been in the, the restaurant industry know it's a real, real grind. Like I was working 70, 80, 70, 80 hours a week. I had dozens and dozens of direct reports. I was super burnt out. When I got into real estate, I didn't— I took maybe like 2 weeks off. I was planning on taking more time off, but I just— I'm a bit of a busybody, so I, I jumped right into real estate. And, you know, I had— I was— the stars aligned for me. I joined a husband and wife team, moved right to Keller Williams after a short stint at a previous brokerage. And we just plugged right into the, the Red Book and, and how to grow a team. And so, you know, my first year was really— I remember walking around outside of the office just calling former, you know, people from my band days, people I was just calling my sphere. And I was just saying, hey, you know, I've been out of touch with a lot of people because I was working, you know, in the restaurant retail business and lost touch, and, you know, I'm just calling to say hey. And so I would just make my 10 to 15 conversations happen. And, you know, I also just joined the right organization at the right time. Like, they were, um, feeding me opportunities, open houses. I mean, I, I hosted easily 6 open houses a week for the first year.

Were you doing twilights and then Saturdays and Sundays, or—

I did, um, Friday nights was a commuter, like an hour and a half, and then I would do 2 on Sunday, 2 on, uh, 2 on Saturday, 2 on Sunday, and 1 on Monday. And I just, uh, they didn't have another— I was their buyer's agent. So that's another key factor is they were following the, the MREA Red Book model, and they said, Todd, you're going to just be a buyer's agent first. And I was like, I'm all in on this. And Um, yeah, I just like hosting that many open houses in the market at the time. I just was having, you know, 50 to 100 in traffic.

And, and, and you know the funny thing? That'd still work today, wouldn't it?

100%.

Yeah, that's the funny thing.

Anyone could start today. Yes, call everyone they know. Yeah, have a meaningful conversation with them. And go get into some open houses. And if your team doesn't have open houses— and that was the other thing I saw, you know, I was mature enough, I was 30, I think I was 31 maybe when I got into the business. I was mature enough to see the value in open houses that when the team's open house opportunities diminished, started networking with the agents in the office and said, hey, if you need open house help. And so, uh, there were a handful of agents that leaned on me for that. So, um, but yeah, I sold Sold 28 houses in my first year. Wow.

And how many years ago was that?

That was 2013 when I got in the business. So, so yeah, just about 13 years.

So how long did you stay then in the team environment?

Yeah, so I was, um, my first year I was really just learning the ropes. Um, second year I sold 40 houses. But the second year was, was me, um, tapping into my leadership at that point. So I hired a, uh, showing partner. Oh, and, uh, this guy fresh out of Northeastern University got his license. He came in, he would sit in the buyer consultation with me, and then he would go out— we would go out and show a couple properties together, and then he would take over the rest. And then anytime there was a you know, a property that the client's rated a 9 or a 10 out of 10. He would give me an update. I would go see the property and I would take it from there. And then so we were working with 20 to 30 buyers at a time. And that's how I got to 40 that year. And as you can imagine, that model kind of burned me out a little bit because having a showing partner that was handing work back to me every week, right?

It's supposed to go away. Yeah, go away and get paid.

I would have dinner plans and was writing 4 to 6 offers.

I got a 10.

So, um, but you know what, you don't— you don't— I don't regret that because you, you learn how to run and, and then you, you figure out, well— and so, yeah, so we actually— and this is where Hudson, my team leader, was, was just really generous and, and really, uh, pivotal for me, is like every time I got to a ceiling of achievement or got burnt out, we would, we would strategize together on what to do next.

Someone— here's a great example there, because I know it's, it's the heart of you, who you are too, Todd. And I think it's— there's a lot of different things. You're a competent guy, you work hard, and, and you're great in business. But, but there's this underneath thing, um, that person gave you runway.

Yes.

And we had a relation inspired instead of sitting back. You know, I, I think we're leaders cost agents money in the long run. You're probably going to lose that person. But while they're talking about it and thinking about it, they're taking up mind space that's costing. So you're going to lose money twice if you don't give someone runway like it. You lose money in them talking about it and thinking about it for 6 months, and then you lose the money when they leave you versus you. You knew you had a leader that was concerned with your growth, not restricting you. Fair to say?

100% fair to say. Like, he, um, I think for that first 4 years I was with that team, for 5 years, every year I did something different. So, you know, that second year was— the first year was on my own, second year was with a showing partner, third year I kept the showing partner but started hiring agents underneath me. And I became the de facto sales manager. So I would recruit them, train them, and then coach them one-on-one each week. And Hudson was generous enough to give me a, you know, an override on the business that they did in order for that. And then so, yeah, so I had my production and then, yeah, then I started doing listings. Then I started— then Hudson— again, this is the Hudson show, but I am grateful for him in these first 3 years.

So good to give attribution because I think that misses it. A lot. So I always do. I think it's wonderful. Give attribution to the people that contributed to this.

Yeah, he, he, um, he taught me the ropes with listings, and then he, he had built a successful development company, so he started mentoring me on my first and second and third. Um, here in Boston, we do a lot of condo conversions. We take multi-families, gut renovate them into condos. And so at that point, I was, I was having multiple streams of income Wow. With buying and selling my developments, developing, I had the somewhat passive revenue of being a leader, and then I had my own, my own business. And, and, you know, my dad, from a very early age, when I was really young, he, he preached to me about the value of real estate and the value of building wealth with real estate. He's like, there's no other vehicle like it. And that resonated with me all the way up until that point that I jumped into real estate. I think that's a key component that I failed to share. But like, there was this idea of like, oh, I think real estate is a smart path. If you're a real estate agent, there's no better way to peel back the curtain and understand the investment side of real estate. There's no better path than selling it. And so when I was a buyer's agent selling 30 to 40 houses a year, I knew what buyers wanted, I knew what buyers didn't want. And so when I bought my first development, I was like, we're putting the laundry here, we're putting 2 beds, we, we have to have parking, we've got to have outdoor space. And it was just like, it was easy, honestly. Like, because you're just— I was just running with buyers and listening.

You can't go to school— you can go to school for, but until you get into it I mean, there's the proof right there is, okay, great, education's fine, but you've gotta get in there and experience it. That's where it all comes from. And most people just don't get the reps in anything. It's a reps issue, not a knowledge issue, because the reps give you the knowledge.

100%.

Mm-hmm.

That's something I've learned from you.

Yeah, it just does. It's just you gotta dig in. Well, you know, I'll hear from people, well, I don't, you know, I don't feel comfortable. I don't, hey, listen, you got here. That's the funny thing too. We all got here doing. We forget the uncomfortable stuff because I think a lot of us think, I'm going to build a business and work less and it's going to do the easy stuff. Have fun with that one.

Yeah, we should all write down the hard stuff so we remind ourselves of it, because I think we have selective memory around the pain we go through.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you look at your peers, you look at the size of the team you have now, and I guarantee if we sit down And if they told their origin story, you know, I mean, it's just, wow, remarkable. Yeah. You still got that grit? Well, maybe not so much.

Yeah.

Well, at what point did you decide, you know something, I'm going to— I'm going to go out on my own and I'm going to build a team?

Yeah.

So you really had within his organization I mean, you, you had the feel of it, right?

Totally, 100%. And he, um, him and his wife decided to move to Miami. They kept the team in Boston. They're running a team now in Miami. And, um, he was still doing development. And that was like, you know, for a year or two there, I was kind of running the team and he was kind of moving his family, moving his business. And, um, at that point, I had hired my own coach because I was just looking for, I mean, if you can't surmise already, like, I'm just like, I like go like 12 months and then I'm ready for something else. Like, it's just, you know, it's just something I do. So when I hired that coach, Alan Strange was his name. He coached me for about 6 months. And he On my second call, he was able to get to my why, which was really back to that mission statement, impacting lives, you know, and, and, um, I really created a vision for the event that happened this week. And, um, he's like, you got to start your own team. Like, you got to build, you got to build a large team so that you've got a stage and a platform and proof and receipts for him that you can then have the, the, you know, um, the authority to be able to teach others. And so yeah, that was in 2019. I moved, um, 2019, you said, to create a team. 2019, I moved by myself. So I left the team, and the, the, the team I was on had grown from the 3 of us to 13.

Okay.

So when I left I promoted myself to solo agent.

And is 13 a big number in Boston?

Yes.

Many other metroplexes?

We were the biggest team.

There you go.

Other than a handful of others that are still around today, that are— two of which were on stage this week.

Yes.

Wow.

Yeah.

So that was the Keller Williams team. Was a real, you know, felt like a new concept here in Boston. Wow.

So, so when you came out now, did you immediately, when you decided to launch your team, did you go right at, okay, to do this, I've got to provide opportunities, uh, I need to go invest in, in some, some leads? Or had you through time built up a big enough database and enough business where you were able to hand business to agents? What did that look like in the beginning for you? And real quick, we're talking— we're in 2025. So in 5 years, you went from being an agent on a team to— what was your 5.5 and change GCI in a year?

Yeah, last year we did $5.6 million in GCI.

So we're talking about in 6, 5, 5 years.

In 2019, I did $375,000. In GCI.

Wow. Wait, 2019 you did $375,000,000?

Mm-hmm.

And in 2024 you did $5. What?

$6,000,000.

Wow. What happened? That's— I think that's what everyone wants to hear. There we go. We nailed it. I always come in here fluid, man.

Yeah, I mean, I, I The best advice that I got when I got into this business, I remember this, this, uh, buddy of mine who was already in the business said, Todd, the book's already been written on how to do this well.

No, they're still not.

What?

I said the books still aren't written on how to do it well.

Well, the book's not finished, right?

Right, there you go. That's it, right? Yeah, we're all authoring it together. That's why we all get together so much. Right.

Well, and I mean, we're on— well, yeah, the book's written, but how many editions are there? Yeah.

Yeah. So anyway, and then the market comes in and tells you, we got a different chapter. We're going to start a new— I mean, macaroni. No, we got to burn the book.

There's a choose your own adventure component to this book.

Yes.

Choose your journey. But, you know, I, when I moved, I, onto my own, I had, I still had my coach. And basically, um, I had that North Star of, of I want to have a big team because I knew that my mission at that point was to positively impact as many people professionally as possible.

Well, and I want to interrupt and stop here too because you just went through, um, and again, it's not about brands or things like that you're with a great company, that you did good business, and you talk, you were with that company when you did that, you're with a great company right now. But the one thing that's used pretty loosely, and I just want to point out, 'cause I got to, you know, your feedback and your discovery and exploration, and I'll tell you why, because we just talked about the numbers and then people want the magic little pill. And I just want to point out to y'all that what Todd is saying about his mission and why he wanted to grow it big it truthfully wasn't about GCI. It was impacting people because as you explored, um, different opportunities, when you decided to make a change, that was the single most important thing to you was, was where can I— I remember you saying it to me, hey, I'm going to look at some other things. Okay, great. Uh, I want the place that can give me the best opportunity to impact more people. So I just wanted to interject that, folks, you hear people say that it's kind of like, I'm authentic. They use the word culture. I want to serve. I want integrity. I want to serve people. You just heard those numbers, 375 to 5.6 million. He lists it. So just keep that in the back of your mind. So anyways, with that said, you wanted to go big. I took you off track, but I just— there's things that are real important that people—

well, well, and I want to add to that, like, it's easy for people to just share what they want to do for others, like I had, I had, uh, reasons to grow the team that were selfish too, or that were to serve my family, right, as well. And what I can tell you is I was looking at the real estate industry and I was seeing how when you compare it to a Starbucks where you had 14 days of mapped out training, check-ins a roadmap to success. And when you get your license as a real estate agent, you just get plopped at a desk and they say, good luck. And that's your broker. That's a person supposed to care about you, care about your success, win with you because they're sharing in your revenue. That crazy. It just felt, even though I was experiencing a lot of success, I, I was immediately aware of how broken the, the model is.

And there was a gap, and you could see more could be done from a leadership standpoint.

100%. And I knew that the team model, because I happened to start my career on a team, was the solution. And, um, so yeah, to point out some of the selfish points, like, I really wanted to impact the industry, and in terms of like how it could be done differently so that there was less of a failure rate, higher client care, less douchey agents, right?

Right.

Like, and, and, um, I also saw what my father went through being a— my father did not build a big business. It was him, and, um, he would, you know, depending on the project, he would have one or two guys with him. Um, but that isn't it interesting how kids see that, notice that stuff? Yeah, I mean, I, I saw—

I don't think they, you know— oh, kids see it, I know. And that's come up a lot, and folks I've been chatting with in the last week or two.

Yeah, and I have, you know, I, I have space for both. I have space, like, tremendous gratitude for how— excuse me— how hard my dad worked.

Yeah.

And I also, uh, saw him struggle and suffer a bit. And that, I mean, that warms my heart. But it like, when I saw how things could, business could look a little different at Starbucks, it's like, I don't want to kill myself and not be there for my family. Um, and I also saw the, I saw a similar path with solo agents in the real estate industry. You know, there's a joke, there's no retirement parties for real estate agents, right? Because as soon as you stop opening doors, you stop getting your commission checks. And that was another reason for— that was my another motivation for me to start the team was to build a business and not just build a job for myself. And so building the team was in part the platform to impact others. But also to build a business that ran with or without me while I was there, which is still a work in progress on that one.

Yeah, always is. So when you started ripping, um, $375,000 to this $5.6 million for the first couple years, really focusing the, the agents on just the basic core fundamental stuff that has always worked, or was it Well, we're going to do that, but we— I've got to make an investment in leads. What did that all look like? The ratio of it, the trajectory of it, and where's it at today?

Yeah, so what I can say that I did well in that first year was, was go into my decision-making with the vision of growing the team. And so I was able to, with coaching and reaching out to others and studying the models, realized that before I could bring a buyer's agent into the business, I need to create, like you said, predictable business opportunities.

Sure.

And I need to create some value for the agents. And so, so the first two hires I made, one wasn't it a marketing-centric executive assistant?

Really? So your first— this is really good— marketing executive assistant. And you want to know why that gets me excited for a moment? Everyone's first hire is different. Do you know who Dan Beer's first hire was?

What? Oh, an ISA, right?

Yes. Yes.

That like blew my mind.

Right?

Yeah. That would have, that would have made me crazy.

Honestly.

Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Marketing exec assistant was number one. Okay.

Yep. So, so imagine like my executive assistant came in, she started handling my emails. We immediately started planning a launch event. Like to launch. And that was another thing is I projected that I was a company already. We were called Denman Properties at the time.

Denman Properties Official.

Yeah, we're international, you know.

Brittany wants, Brittany wants that tagline on hers too.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was, it was Brittany Pinot and Associates and she went Pinot and Associates. She wanted to go Pinot International. I go, we're in Baton Rouge.

Yeah, how well is that going to go?

Yeah, we're not international. Boston, maybe.

But yeah, so yeah, so that assistant Anna, she was handling my email, handling my calendar, and she immediately dove right into email newsletters, planning my launch event. And so within, I would say, 5 months of her joining me, like, people thought I was— people had the perception because of marketing that I was, yeah, that I was a, that I was a bigger business than I was. And then, um, subsequently the business started really coming, right? It's like, do work and then you'll get work, get more work. What is the saying, John?

Oh, I, I don't know.

All work, work works.

Work works. That one. Yeah, I know that one. Yeah, yeah, you're way off the reservation on that. I couldn't, I couldn't corral myself on that one.

Well, that's, that's—

let me ask, I think that from you, right? Now, now, now, so great, the consumer, but then did that, that, that marketing that she was doing out to the consumer, to the marketplace, um, and then certainly results came, but then did that serve as a magnet for agents to want to join you? Was that kind of your Was that a passive form of recruiting for you too?

Oh, 100%. Well, I would say at that point, yes. However, um, I didn't have the wherewithal or awareness of the connection that client-facing marketing can be impacted.

So now it's in looking back, you retrospectively going, yeah, that did participate right?

Because we all want to be affiliated with a brand.

We're all watching. You know who watches, looks at our— remember, I don't know, I'm so old, remember the home magazines? I got the COVID I got the back cover. You know, you know who read the home magazines? We did.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's the same with our marketing, our consumer marketing.

Who watches it, looks at the most? Agents do. Come on, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, um, Did you recruit intentionally?

Really? If you were to look over in this trajectory—

no. Well, I'll share with you. So the second hire I made was another employee. It wasn't any— it was a transact— it was an outsourced transaction coordinator. And so, and I honestly, like, I'll, I'll go toe-to-toe with Dan Beer and arguing that, well, I think the ISA is really smart because what it probably did is buried him with business.

Right. But, and your personalities are way different. Dan is brilliant, visionary. He loves chaos in a good way.

Yes. I want more control.

Chaos is not your thing. And I say chaos is a compliment to him. And yes, more process-oriented, right? Yeah.

Yeah, and he, you know, and he was magical. Oh, and he was telling me he was going on 6 to 7 listing appointments a week. Like, no thank you for me.

Yeah, right.

And so, so, uh, yeah, um, so yeah, I hired a transaction coordinator.

Really good.

As my sales were growing as a solo agent with 2 employees, um, the transaction coordinator was taking more off my plate, and that, that enabled me to start thinking about recruiting. Because I was effectively buying— I bought myself back some time by taking, you know, they say, what does transaction coordination take off an agent's plate? 40%, 50%. So, um, what did you recruit to?

Do you— if you were looking back, and, and probably even today too, but is it, um, you as a leader or opportunities? How would—

if you look at those two things I'm a relationship guy, so I'm, you know, at Starbucks we were taught, um, to treat everyone like a customer. So the vendors that delivered the milk, the, you know, the people that just like the muffins, the croissant, like, like we're— how we treat people all different types of people is, is a representation of our brand and who we are and a representation of our company. And so I don't know—

I want to interject on this. I don't know how many years ago it was, but this really struck a chord with me. Maybe it was 10 years ago, maybe it's 12, 15. You may remember, maybe not. They interviewed Mr. Schultz.

Yeah.

In Fast Company. And he said this one thing. He said, I don't sell coffee, I sell community.

100%. And that was alive, you know, and I don't think I was so conscious of that. But like, um, you know, again, you think of Starbucks, you think of slinging lattes. That was not the company for me, even though that's what I did.

It was.

And I think that that's why it was so easy for me to just, like, as soon as I left Starbucks I felt like I needed a mission because Starbucks had created a mission that was so clear for me that when it was gone, I felt directionless. Like I didn't have a coach at that point. So, so I mean, that's the Howard Schultz is just— yeah, for anyone watching, like read Howard Schultz's books, like it is incredible, his rags to riches story.

Didn't he go to Bill Gates's dad to borrow money or something? That story in the beginning, do you know that story where he was gonna—

Yes, he, he wasn't— he was gonna— so he was a coffee equipment salesperson. He grew up, uh, his dad went on disability in the Bronx and never was able to work again. So he, uh, was really— they were really, really struggling financially, and he He got a job as a salesperson selling coffee equipment, and he, he had flown into Seattle to go to this coffee shop that was called Pete's Coffee, which is still around. And when he went to Pete's, he couldn't get over the quality, the experience. And at that point, they weren't serving drinks. They were just serving beans. And so he was just a sales rep there for a while. And then he went and tried to buy it, and, um, another investor came in.

He swooped on him, right?

Swooped on him. And Howard Schultz, you know, was young and went into the office and, you know, was given that information. And, um, Bill Gates Sr.

Yes.

Walked Howard Schultz to the competitors, you know, to the competing offering party's office and said, you stand down, you're not buying Starbucks. Yes. And the guy said, okay.

Yes, sir.

Can you imagine?

It's a whole different world. That's where you get— that's when, you know, that statement, there's levels to the game. That's just love. That's a whole different language.

Well, and you could say that that was maybe privilege, but Howard Schultz didn't come from privilege. Those were relationships that he created. So I would, you know, we're talking all about relationships here, like the power of relationships, the proximity to people that can help you when you need help. And for whatever reason, Bill Gates Sr. had a soft spot for Howard Schultz. And he was like, this isn't just a deal, this is this guy's dream, and I'm not gonna, not gonna get in his way. And, um, I, I, you know, I wouldn't be here if that did— if Bill Gates Sr. didn't do that.

Amazing. I love, um, and again, our number— our, our industry is— and sure, numbers are part of the game, but it's, it's so numbers-driven. But I think what's so neat is to get underneath this because Um, you look at your experience, you look at the education you got, the training you got, and, but, but in the experience, then the, the feedback that you received, the feedback I'm defining is not just your paycheck, but how it made you feel. And so that was something that endured. And, and look at that. I mean, you stayed there a long time, but now it comes back to, okay, it taught you that, you know what, I want to be mission-based. I had education, I experienced it, I saw the outcomes, I felt it, and then transferring it over to your folks. And, you know, it's interesting, I don't think the book ScaleUp or Traction or some new lead source can outperform this stuff that you're talking about.

Well, and I should say, like, what is it? The wound is the place for the light to come in.

That's saying, man, you got some good— all I know is the work, work, work, man.

Yeah, right. Half of these things I'm blurting out are yours. Are yours.

Well, Tony Robbins said to us in a group, uh, we were in Idaho 3 months ago, he says You're gonna hear a lot of clichés from me. You want to know why? And you want to know why they're clichés? Because they're true.

Yes, makes sense. Yeah, I have sayings for everything because I think— I feel like it helps me capture the concept really good. And I mean, the thing that I didn't share is just the pain that I went through in my teenage years, just with, you know, drug abuse, physical abuse. Mental abuse, the, the in divorce, the instability that was created in my family. Um, I got the job at Starbucks as a 17-year-old, and, um, you know, all of this stuff feels a little bit surface when we're talking about client care, learning management, HR practices. But really, like, what Starbucks was for me in those first handful of years was stability and, um, community and safety. Like, they had, they had health insurance and 401(k) and stock, and they had leadership that cared about you advancing in your role. And like, yeah, I mean, I think the, I think the company like was just like super, super important for me. And, and I think, yeah, and I think that that brings me right to where, um, my big why is, um, now is, is I, you know, if you give people a paycheck, they're gonna, you know, that's like one level. But if you're able to impact, impact their lives help them reduce pain or, you know, increase their status or, you know, whatever someone needs, you'll stay with them forever. I mean, like, what Starbucks was able to do for me is why I was there for so long.

Interesting.

And so, like, we can, you know, if we have team members that need our help personally, we should really think twice about canning them if, if they're going through something.

Because, you know, if we can help, that's that opportunity right in front of us.

Yeah.

You know, to really serve someone.

Totally.

So, so, so really, um, I don't want everyone to hear this. It wasn't about leading this team of we've got more leads than that team has. Um, it's, hey, listen, we're, we're going to help you grow your business, but you're going to have an experience of, of, of personal development, experience of community, an experience of people that really care. You're not a number. And, and it's worked really, really well. If you were to look at that 5.9 or 5.6 million GCI in 2024, off the top of your head, how much of it would you say— I call traditional, not, you know, you got Zillow, Realtor.com and Homes.com, all these places. What percentage of that 5.6 million would you say was more of the traditional form, uh, work in sphere of influence, work in open houses, work in past clients, etc., versus lead or purchased opportunities?

Uh, 85% sphere of influence.

How do you— well, I think we've just answered it. It's a dumb question, um, but I'll still ask it. I mean, because I know that people are going to hear that right now and go, That's just not real because, because you know what I mean. I'll just be fair and I'll make a sweeping commentary. Most of the, most of these teams are 70 to 80% flipped on the Zillow side and kicking, biting, scratching to get 20, 30% of, of that gener— that self-generated stuff. What's been the key to that? Just that's what your offer is?

Well, and I think, you know, we, us real estate agents, we we often, because of the, the, the design of how we're paid and compensated, we're often on a hamster wheel. And so if you get onto the, the Zillow hamster wheel, it's hard, it's hard to get off of the Zillow hamster wheel. And again, I want to credit my first team with this, but, you know, I was doing open houses over here, and then we started doing quarterly client, client dinners over here or that were the previous year's past clients. And then we started doing client events. And so think about it, it's like open house events create leads, client events create more clients. And so the events just, again, like, if you want to go do something incredibly impactful, go like live inside an organization that's already doing something really impactful, because you get to, you get to dice, you get to live it and breathe it. You don't have to fake it until you make it. You can just watch it. And so that's why I had so much confidence and clarity going into building my team, was I was like, I just knew it happened. Yeah, I was just, I was like, this benefited me as an agent. Like, I can now say joining a team was the best thing I ever did for myself. Now I want to have a team and I want to have my team be the best thing that happened to someone else.

Well, we know this, Todd. I mean, there's never been enough money in a relationship to keep it together. And people that join purely— and yes, sure, everyone listening to this or watching, yeah, you're in a for-profit business, but there's never been enough money to keep a relationship together. I mean, there's just not. It's that, that depth of connection. And I love where you're at. You know, there's a conversation I was having with someone last week about Zillow and You know, our ratio or this or that. And they said, well, because you don't have a standard with it. I said, for every one piece of business that an agent closes, I don't care if it's Zillow or realtor.com or whatever it may be, you should expect, hey, here's the standard. At first you can't because they gotta ramp up, the time's gotta go by. Two more pieces of business in 18 months that are from that one. Now, are we gonna chase 'em down? That wasn't from the one, even though you generate, no. But that ratio, because I had reload contracts back in 1990 and USA Movers Advantage Program, and that's how it was done with us.

Right. And I would say Zillow Flex can be the open house that I was talking about.

Yes.

You need to feed it.

Yes.

You need to nurture.

But it's the work behind it that people don't— Right. It's, it's, it's— I don't, I don't want 30 leads. I want 900 leads and call them all once versus 30 leads and call 30 times. We know which agent's going to win and convert more every time, but it's this, it's this immediate gratification society piece.

Well, when I would say the first— so, so we used this, uh, we had this, uh, framework at Starbucks. This is going to be the Starbucks podcast, John. We had a framework called Connect, Discover, Respond. And that was a human interaction framework. And so whenever someone came up to the register or came up to the bar, it was always, hey, hey, how are you doing? Like, how's the day? How's the weather? What are you up to? You're connecting first. And then, you know, after you connect, you're saying, you know, what can I do for you? What can I get you? And then you respond. What a lot of, you know, you go to Dunkin' Donuts over here on the East Coast and it's, what can I get you?

Speed.

And, well, there's no connection.

No, there's none.

It's just discover and respond. And the connection point, that relationship is, I would say like for teams that are doing high Zillow, it's still the same thing. Connect, discover, respond. If you build a relationship with a Zillow lead, you're gonna have a higher conversion rate. And then you're gonna— and then if you maintain that relationship after they transact with you, you're gonna have a higher referral rate or repeat, you know.

Yep. But, well, you know, you know, people aren't doing it though. It's crazy. I mean, it's wild. And, and they don't see it because you, you can get on that realtor.com, Trainers, Zillow— and we're not crapping on, on at all, but it's just seeing that, that opportunity Gosh, the margins, they keep— you can crash those margins down all you want with me because fine, I'll make it my loss leader, right? I'll make it my loss leader.

It can be a loss leader as long as it's feeding something bigger. And I think, I think we, you know, I talk about life by default versus life by design.

Yes.

You know, as long as we're living a life by default, we're reacting and we're paying high referral fees to Zillow. If we, if we took, you know, we're ending, we're getting to the end of the year. If we planned, you know, our first purpose, if we've never done an event before, we should probably plan one for 2026, right? And like, the next one, that's the next one, right? And, and, uh, and look, we just did our first big agent-facing event 2 days ago, and guess what? I took your advice. We announced the next event at the end of this event, and we don't— like, I know the value of— I've learned now the value because of your mentorship of like making that.

But you linked it back though to, oh, these principles are— you know, oh yeah, I did that over here with the consumer.

Yeah, this is all the same, same stuff. Recruiting is the same as lead generation.

Yeah. Yep.

It is. And I have to share with you, we like, that I think brings this all together. Um, my wife and I were having a hard time getting pregnant back in 2015, so we decided to go on a big trip.

Oh.

And we went to, um, Peru and we went to Machu Picchu.

Oh, wow.

And we were hiking down the back of Machu Picchu. And, um, the couple in front of us, the wife had a Red Sox hat on. And, um, we were like, wait, are you from Boston? You know, we're in Peru and southern, you know, the southern part of the world. And, uh, she was like, yeah. And, um, anyways, we ended up talking all the way down and, um, they asked me for my card. And I was like, I don't have my card, I'm on vacation with my wife in Peru. Anyways, I ended up helping them buy a house, um, like, I want to say like 6 months later. And, uh, Alex, uh, her now husband, I was in tech sales, he called me, you know, I kept in touch with him, he called me 4 years later, I'm getting burnt out on tech sales, um, you know, can we talk about real estate? That was in 2020. He joins my team in 2020, and now he's my top agent.

Amazing. Um, here's what I'm going to do, because I think we got, we got more time that we need to spend and do this again. Um, because I, I, I love the— I love where we went from a foundational principles and values-based place which is very, very different. But I think the how you train and lead folks out really in the tactical stuff, love to do another time. Where, Todd, can, can people find you? What's the best place for people to, to, to track you down?

Yeah, I would say, uh, Facebook is a good spot, or, or Instagram.

Always the good one, isn't it? They're going to stalk you anyways. Facebook stalk you.

Yep. Instagram I'm very active on too. Um, good. John, thanks so much for—

I appreciate you, man, giving me the time. This is, this is fun. We'll do it again. And, um, well, I can't wait to see where the business and life is a year from today.

Appreciate you.

Thank you.