The WORST Mistakes Almost All Beginners Make in The Gym

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Built With Science podcast. You are here with your boys, me, Max Coleman, and of course, D Money Plotkin. That is Daniel Plotkin, and you are listening to the Built With Science podcast. Thank you guys so much for listening. Today we are going to be doing probably my favorite episode we've done so far, and we're just going to be discussing what Danny and I think are the biggest mistakes that people commonly make when they get into lifting. These probably aren't going to be the ones that you commonly hear. They're going to be a little bit more philosophical and a little bit less practical, meaning we're not going to be able to give you just a specific, don't make this mistake, do this instead. But more so the philosophy of how to think about training and how to go about making this a part of your full lifestyle rather than what most people do when they first get into lifting. So with that out of the way, Danny, why don't you start us off with what you think is one of the biggest mistakes people make when they first start lifting.

Yeah, so we're not gonna go in any particular order in terms of, you know, worst to best. We're just gonna throw some out there and then go back and forth pretty conversationally. So I think the biggest one that I see sort of as a broad topic is just people missing the forest for the trees. So basically getting too into the details or the exact opposite, not getting into any detail whatsoever. So either panning out too far or panning in too far. So I think one thing that people do all the time, so you see someone that's semi jacked, and I get this question all the time, is what subs do you take, bro? Like, as soon as they see someone either lifting something heavy or looking pretty good, they say, what supplements do you take? Which is, to anyone, initiated a really misguided question, because the supplements that they took assuredly did not get them where they are unless they're special supplements. So unless you're talking about.

And even those like, don't, don't. They don't take you the full way. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, for sure. So I think that's like an easy one that people should just realize that supplements are a very small percentage of the success. That's not to say that they aren't useful. So sometimes people go. And this is also, you know, along the same lines. You don't want to go like, oh, all supplements are completely useless. And just train bro. And you also, by the same token, don't want to focus too much on supplements, have your whole stack. Like there's literally people have walked into their house and they have like a GNC on their counter. And before they go to the gym, I've had training partners where they spend like 15 minutes just like putting out their pills and their stack to. And they have. Of course, it's not a blend for their pre workout. It's literally each individual supplement that they precisely dose for their needs. So, yeah, definitely don't do that. It's a very small percentage. Just keep it simple. Caffeine goes a long way. Creatine goes a long way. Protein as needed to get to your daily targets. And don't go too crazy after that. There's definitely other supplements that are useful, but they're gonna be marginal differences. And we get into those supplements in a later episode or perhaps an episode that already aired. So we do not know the order they like to keep at Trumbell with science. And so, yeah, that's one part of missing the forest for the trees that I'm gonna cover. The second one, and I sort of alluded to it, is just. Just trained bros. So people who essentially just anytime you get into anything sciency, you start talking about what frequency is best, what volumes are most conducive to growth, rest periods, anything that even remotely gets into something that could be considered science or could be prodded by science. They say, don't worry about it. Just work hard. You don't need to freaking worry about those weirdos and lab coats. Just train and you'll be fine. And they're not completely wrong. If you're just consistent and you work hard, you're gonna get a whole lot of, you know, gains. And it might even take you 80% of the way there or 90% of the way there. But when you reach a roadblock, when you get to the point where things aren't going super, super well, then you want to have a framework where you can troubleshoot things. You can say, okay, here's what I'm doing and here's a direction where I can go in based on group averages, experience, all that kind of stuff that you can start making decisions. And after you've made a decision based on the rationale, you can course correct and then move in the most appropriate direction. So I. I like the analogy, and I forgot who said it. I think it was Mike Touchier, kind of like a flashlight in the dark, where science. And I think he used it for, you know, his own system. But I'm sort of using it in the context of science, where science is kind of like a flashlight in the dark. I don't see it as, at all as it tells you exactly what to do. I think it gives you a good starting point and then it gives you a direction when it comes time to troubleshoot. Okay, things aren't going well. I know that my rest periods are here. I know my volume is here for this specific muscle group. I know that I'm recovering like this for this muscle group. Can I push volume? Should I push volume down? And so on and so forth. So I think using science as a tool and not just throwing it out and training hard and not tracking and doing those kinds of things is obviously at least to us, the people who are already indoctrinated. Indoctrinated, a very good idea. So take that for what?

Yeah, and I think, I mean that's what it means to be an evidence based practitioner. I think, and I think a lot of people think it means that we, we have a client and we immediately look to the PubMed paper that tells us exactly what to do with that client. And for those of you who actually understand science, you know that that's not also on the supplement thing, I just, I have to throw a dig at Dr. Dr. Roberts. Shout out Michael Roberts, Doc. The man used to like have every amino acid and he would, he would, he would make his own protein supplements with individual amino acid profile. He's very much missing the forest for the trees and that dude's a super genius. So obviously it's, it's a mistake that everyone can make.

Right?

But yeah, I think, I think those are incredible. Is there anything else you wanted to tack on about missing the forest for.

The trees on that specific topic? I don't think so. But I know you are going to cover the other side of the coin which is paralysis by analysis. So literally just going too far in one direction and completely missing the forest for the trees. The nerdy side of things. So there's the bro side of things where you're just like nothing matters, just train hard. And then this nerdy side of things where you analyze every detail, try to make everything optimal and end up in a place where you're probably not so optimal. So dive in, buddy.

Yeah, so absolutely just a continuation and an extension of essentially missing the forest for the trees. Right. But like Danny Boy said, the opposite end of the spectrum, you've got the, the bro side that Danny boy is on and then you've got the four eyed goggle side that Cheboy is on.

Right.

So I just titled this basically Chasing Optimality.

Right?

And I wanna give like a full disclaimer before I start this. I am stealing most of what I'm about to say from Eric Helm's Muscle and Strength Pyramid, which if you haven't read and you're into evidence based training and nutrition, please give both that and his, his book on nutrition a read. But with that outta the way, I also wanna give a quick note on optimality.

Right.

So Danny boy, between us, probably been studying this stuff for like 20 years, I would say. I mean, I've been, I've been into lifting for like 12 years, but I've been like seriously into studying it and stuff for five, six years or well, even more than that. Anyway, between Danny and I, we have like well over a decade of, of studying this stuff intently, indirectly.

Right.

And with that, neither one of us can tell you what the optimal way to train is at all, even remotely. So remember that research in this field is both brand new, Right. And it's research in general is always based on group averages. Right? So exercise science itself didn't even exist until the 1960s.

Right.

So not only are Danny boy and I not able to tell you what is optimal at a group level, but even more than that, we certainly can't tell you what is optimal for you specifically because you are not the group average that was studied in X, Y and Z study.

Right.

Okay. I just wanted to get that out of the way because I'm tired of hearing the word optim thrown around. Okay? So the reason I wanted to cover chasing optimality as my topic is just because I think it is the mistake that I made for the longest period of time and the one like it extended into me being an advanced lifter. Not just something that I made a mistake I made as a beginner.

Right.

And I think that it is probably the mistake that I made that held my progress back more than anything else. So oftentimes when we get into lifting or any hobby really, we, we want to check every single box so that we can ensure that we're. The time that we're spending in the gym is like worth our while, right? And I think that's largely because, you know, we love the gym, but it sucks at the same time. And it's this hobby that is pretty grueling and intense. So just for that, we want to make sure that, you know, we're getting our money's worth essentially.

Right?

So we start doing things like, oh, I need to be training six days a week instead of four, because that's better. I need to be doing this exercise instead of this exercise because, you know, more EMG on this study showed that it was a better exercise. Essentially, we start tailoring our lives to fit this best optimal possible program rather than doing what is probably a much better idea, which is trying to take a. Tailor a, a workout program to the lives that we're already living. Living.

Right. And.

And. And I just want to clarify that chasing optimality is not a bad thing. Danny boy and I both. I know that I can speak for him. I hope that's okay. Danny, we'd like to know that we're doing everything that we can to ensure that we have the best physiques that we possibly can.

Right.

So chasing optimality is not a bad thing, but chasing optimality at the expense of both consistency and actual enjoyability is what I want to focus on here.

Right.

So let's just very briefly talk about how important it is to be consistent and to enjoy your workouts. So it's very rare to hear someone downplay how just how important consistency is. So I'm not gonna like spend any time talking about that because if you're listening to this podcast, you know that consistency is like the most important thing in basically any skill, especially building muscle.

Right.

But at the exact same time, the conversation about enjoyability is almost never broached the field, I find. Or it's very rare at least, which is really interesting because there is most assuredly a clear link between your enjoyment of something and your ability to stick and adhere to that thing.

Right.

And for a lot of people, just to clarify, like, the thing that brings you the most joy is, is doing everything that it takes to ensure that you're making progress. Right. And I'm not talking to that.001% right now. I'm talking to the rest of us normies who need to pay just as much attention to what we enjoy as what will help us progress in the gym.

Right.

So kind of long winded there, but just kind of like to tie it all together. And again, I'm stealing this directly from Dr. Eric Helms, which is just the acronym ref so R E F, which is your training has to be realistic, enjoyable and flexible if you want to yield the most amount of progress possible over the course of a training career. I think another really, really good quote is what Derek Van Avery says this all the time, which is it's months and years, not weeks and days. A huge part of you ask any high level bodybuilder what a big part of Their success is. And longevity is one of the most common answers you'll hear. Finding stuff that is both sustainable and enjoyable for you is what's going to build you the most amount of muscle throughout the trade. The course of a training career.

Right.

And just another quick little thing is a program that gets you excited and you enjoy, even if it's suboptimal and terrible. Like, let's say it's. It's got super short rest periods and you're. And you're spending way more time in the shortened position rather than the lengthened position or something like that. Most of your exercises, but you like it and it excites you. You're gonna make far more progress and you're gonna stick with that far more than you are with a program that bores you. Or you have to change all these variables in your life to stick with.

Right.

So anyway, ref, your program has to be realistic, enjoyable, and flexible if you really want it to give you the results that you want it to give you over the course of a training career. So that's the opposite end of the spectrum. I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add to that, Danny boy, about nerds like us who. Who maybe spend a little bit too much time thinking about what they should or should not be doing in the gym.

Yeah, I think, to tack on. I think there's, like, subcategories within here that are relevant to mention. So I think a lot of the people sort of attack the people that are trying to be optimal, saying that they, like, don't train hard. And I don't think that's the case. It's. It's very rare that you see somebody that's really trying to get all the variables right that isn't training hard. So just to sort of get that out of the way, like, usually somebody that's trying to get optimality is going to be putting the effort needed both in the gym and outside the gym. But I think common issues that you can run into when people sort of say that chasing optimality is always a good thing is a lot of those people, to your point, sacrifice consistency in ways that aren't even necessarily the fact that they're not enjoying what they're doing. But because they're chasing optimality and they don't necessarily understand the big rocks, they're constantly doing different things that they now consider to be optimal. So they see a new exercise and they're. The person who's espousing that exercise is very convincing. And instead of Saying that's interesting. And weeks later, integrating into their program or maybe trying it out at the end of a session. Pretty light, something that's reasonable. While staying on track with their current program, they pull an exercise out, put that exercise in, and then, you know, they end up in a situation where, one, they're not necessarily seeing Runway with a bunch of exercises because they're switching exercises in and out, and two, they often get into a situation, and I've seen this with people, too, where they're working hard, but they're working hard with exercises that are quote, unquote, optimal but just don't feel good for them. It's like a lot of lengthened position exercises where people just, like, try to get super deep into the stretch no matter what the position is, either because their setup is wrong or just because it just doesn't fit their specific anatomy. They start pushing exercises where it either leads to aches and pains or just doesn't progress that well because they're limiting the load because it's uncomfortable and not super strong in that position. So I think that's another way where chasing optimality can lead you down a road of doing stuff that's more spinning your wheels than it is actually getting you closer to your goals. And if you just stayed consistent on your program and didn't jump ship constantly with the new optimal, you know, exercise, then you'd probably be better off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I. So I think that was really well said, and I did have a topic that I wanted to cover that I had to nix for time, but you basically just said it, which is people trusting science to tell them what to do more than their own body. Like, look this. Like, what is it? I'm trying to think of an exercise that has shown higher EMG activation. All right.

Yeah.

Okay, here we go. The reverse grip bench press, I think, has showed the most clavicular pec activation of any exercise on em. And for a while, I was like, okay, I have to do that because, you know, emg. And then I did it, and I was like, oh, wow, this just hurts everything except my chest. But I gotta keep doing it because you know it. The science told me to do it.

Right.

Don't be afraid to trust your own intuition. If an exercise hurts you, don't do it, because I promise you there's another exercise you can do that will hit that same muscle in the exact same way, but probably won't cause you pain. So, really good point there. Okay, so we covered both ends of the spectrum as far as missing the forest for the trees. Obviously, we haven't covered every single thing that falls under that umbrella. But moving away from just train, bro.

Or, you know, the.

Actually the angular momentum. Let's move on to your next mistake, whichever it may be.

Yeah. So this one, I think, is super important. So people being too proud or not getting help early on. So a lot of times, and as a trainer, you. You do first workouts with people, so you'd get people who are new to training that you give a free complimentary session with the goal of obviously selling them training. But also, honestly, my goal was to give them as much headway as possible in terms of answer any questions that they had, make them feel safe in the gym. And a lot of that, A lot of the time that actually went hand in hand with them wanting to work with me. So, you know, that kind of aligns.

Completely altruistic of you, Dan. That's amazing.

Yeah. Although, you know, sometimes I was going above and beyond writing programs for people sitting there, so that is, you know, pretty altruistic of me, I think. So stop coming down my throat. But yeah, I think a lot of people want to either. So same thing here. Both sides of the spectrum. They either will not accept help early on, and I think spending that relatively small amount of investment of both time and money early on in your lifting can save you a bunch of heartache, as long as it's with the right people. Like, find a trainer who clearly is, you know, in the know and has good recommendations from people who are also in the know. And sometimes that's a little hard to find. So I empathize with the people that are really trying to find a good coach. But I think there's many, many, many good coaches out there, and maybe we can sort of rattle some off later on if people are interested, like if they want to ask us. And we can give them some names of companies in the comment section and whatnot. But I think finding a good coach early on can not only save you from a lot of mistakes, but also the biggest thing that a good coach can do is lay a foundation that you can now take and tailor to yourself. And they work with you to tailor that to yourself as opposed to you making mistakes, figuring things out the hard way, having to take time off the gym, doing too much too soon. They almost put the reins on you and pull you back so that way you can course correct while being in a very safe zone of not doing too much and not making the very common mistakes that all of us made when we were you know, lifting in the era of the Internet not being a huge thing and the evidence based community not being a huge thing. So I think that's one side of the coin, not getting a coach. But on the other side of the coin, the too proud side of the coin is people doing things that seem like they would impress people or being afraid of not going to the gym with a training partner because they don't want to look foolish. I think many times people aren't consistent, and I've seen this, I believe actually with my own brother where he had a training partner who was super flaky and he ended up missing sessions because he wanted to go with him, either because of camaraderie or because he just didn't want to go alone early on because he was not as strong as he used to be and so on. So being too proud is. Causes a lot of recipes for disaster. Early on, not getting the right coaching, early on, being too proud in like lowering the weight and letting your form suffer, getting training partners that are flaky, that hold you back from being consistent. So all of those things, I think lend themselves to you veering away from the basics and not getting a really, really good foundation. As a beginner lifter, you want to lay a foundation. You don't want to get into anything crazy because this is going to be the Runway for the rest of your career. So save yourself from the mistakes. Get a good coach. Don't be too proud. Nobody cares what you're lifting at any stage of your career. Really. Even the strongest people, like you watch their video, you're like, cool, that person's super strong. But it doesn't really have any relevance to you. You move on in a second. Like, you're not dwelling on it. Like at the end of the day, people are on their own journey. They want to beat themselves. They don't really necessarily care that much about anybody else's journey.

So.

Yep. Don't be too proud.

Yeah, that was really beautiful, Danny Boy. And, and just to. So I have a lot to say there. I hope that's okay. Well, I'll start, I'll start at the end, which is. Look, y', all, I started lifting when I was 12, okay? I'm 25 years old. I'm. I'm 13 years old. I'm. I'm a teenager as far as lifting is concerned. I've been lifting for longer in my life than I have not been living.

Okay?

And I hit 185 on the RDL last week for a set of 10. And I was, I was pumped. I was, I was riveted. And I literally thought about posting on Instagram being like, imagine lifting for a decade plus and getting excited about 185 on an RDL. So, yeah, people don't care how strong you are, I promise. And how strong you are does not matter in the grand scheme of things at all. So, yeah, I couldn't agree more, Danny Boy. And also we just to. I wanted to throw out a clarification that. Or a disclaimer, I suppose that Danny Boy and I, we're coaches and we're. And we're trainers. So obviously this can sound a little bit biased, but there is literally data out there to suggest not published yet. We're waiting on you. Plus one. Let's go get your shit together. Looking at individuals who trained on their own and individuals who trained with Chaboy, funny enough, a trainer or a group of trainers, not just me, obviously. Thank you to all the people that helped me with this study. Uh, and we saw that individuals got. Grew a lot more muscle when they were training with knowledgeable trainers and coaches as opposed to when they were just given a program to do on their own.

Right.

But with that said, I want to make it clear that it does sound like Danny and I are just basically being like, you'll get a coach. It's one of the biggest mistakes is not hiring me or Daniel as a coach for, For. For your lifting career. But the best coaches are terrible businessmen. So what I mean by that is I think I was the first person I ever heard say this was Alan Thrall. So shout out to Drayn Undamed. But he was basically saying, like, my goal as a trainer is to set you as to coach myself out of a job, essentially. And Alberto Nunez has said the same thing where our goal is not to, you know, have you in our lives, continuing to give us money year and year after year, but for you to come to us, allow us to educate you and give you the principles for what you need to be successful in this journey, to then go on and do it on your own so you don't have to hire a coach for the rest of your life. Which is exactly what Danny Boy was saying. It's a limited and acute investment that then sets you up for success for decades and decades and decades, which is hopefully how long you'll be lifting for. Okay. Yeah, Danny, that was. It was really. I really liked that. That was really well done. Do you have anything else to add about, about that?

Yeah, I think, I think the biggest thing I want to add for that is that sometimes the reason for a coach early on is not even necessarily because they're super knowledgeable about the topic and can get you to all the right exercises, is that the people who you see that are more consistent are the people that show up to literally see that person and they're almost doing it for them early on and then they start doing it for themselves after they're trying to like make that person happy. Like, I think the reason why we are inclined to get coaches as well is less because we don't really know what to do. Although I think an objective eye looking at our training is useful. It's a huge thing that you want to please your coach. Like, early on you just want to like, I don't want to let this person down. And that gives you a Runway of consistency that allows you to go and do things on your own. And another thing I'll say is that like, I personally don't need clients right now. I don't, I don't want anymore. So it's not like I'm sort of like pushing my own, you know, training and whatnot. And I think finding someone that is like that. And I don't say that to, you know, sort of give myself a pat on the back. What I say that is to find a person who is clearly in line with that type of thinking. Where if you come to them and you say, I just want to master the basics and work with you for four weeks, is that possible? And they say, and you're literally coached as a trainer, especially in big box gyms, to kind of squirm around that question to an extent or even accept that question and then later on convince the person that they need you. So if that person is in any way indicating that, let's say eight weeks is not enough for them to give you a proficiency to go and thing, go and do things on your own, then probably find a different person because that's just, it's just not true. Could they continue to help you a hundred percent. If you can make that investment and stay with them and you really enjoy it, that is perfect. I've had clients literally for like, I think my longest standing client was close to eight years. So people definitely do stay with you and if they can make that investment, they, they do super well. But if somebody's trying to convince you that they are necessary, then find a new person.

Yeah, no, I think that was really beautiful. And, and just to clarify, like Danny and I don't think that we can teach you everything you need to know about exercise science in four to eight weeks, right? But you know, this shit ain't rocket science. So, like, we can definitely set you up with what you need to be at least successful in the rest of your life. We can't teach you how to interpret research and to think about resistance curves and stuff like that, but we can say, hey, look, this is the stuff to focus on. If you ever have questions, bang my line.

Right?

Yeah. I think that was beautiful. That was really well said, Danny. Okay, cool to move on to my last topic here. Okay, awesome. So this one, and there's a lot of tie into to what you were saying as well, which is I just have this one titled Gurus and Dogmatic Thinking. And again, full disclosure, stealing most of this from Dr. Helms, which doesn't make me look good considering that this whole thing is about staying away from gurus and then sticking with one line of thinking. So shout out Dr. Helms. He is not a guru. He's. He's a beast. Okay. Regardless of whatever hobby or skill it is that we're interested in, right, if we want to learn about something, we often look to expert opinion on what to do for that hobby, right? And that's amazing. Awesome, obviously, right? Danny and I have spent the majority of our life studying muscle growth and therefore we both know a lot about it. And odds are, and this may sound really cocky, but odds are we know more about it than you do. Unless you are just someone else who is also a researcher listening to this. And consequently Danny and I. Well, I hope that's okay. Speak to you. Speak for you here don't know anything about car repair at all. So I obviously I go to an expert who knows a lot about car repair, division of labor. It's the dopest thing ever, right? So essentially this is my disclaimer that like, looking to expert opinion is a good thing, but there are just some important things to consider when doing so. So for a really long time, evidence based fitness just wasn't a thing at all, right? And the, the quote unquote experts that we were capable of looking to for advice were not scientists or researchers in the field, but rather just individuals with big biceps and, and really nice physiques, right? Those were the quote unquote experts of exercise or of hypertrophy.

Right.

And oftentimes these individuals would make claims about what worked for them or their clients. And if they were convincing enough and, or even just well spoken enough, they could amass a pretty large following of Individuals who believe whatever it is that they say regarding fitness, and then if they're really, really good, we're believe whatever they say regarding anything.

Right?

Now, if you're watching the Built With Science podcast, you're clearly aware that just because someone is jacked, it doesn't mean that they know a lot about getting jacked, right? And you're also probably aware that taking an evidence based approach to both fitness and, and, and nutrition is definitely the best way to achieve your goals. However, the last thing you want to do is to simply replace the jacked bicep guru with the guru who wears glasses and a white lab coat, right? And says hypertrophy instead of muscle growth. Okay? So you might be asking the question of like, okay, if I'm following someone who uses science to answer their questions, which we know is the best case course of action, what, what's the harm? If science is the best way to. If, if science is the best route to success, and I'm looking to a guru who, who uses science, what's the harm there?

Right?

But the danger of a guru is not in the message that they deliver. There are a lot of gurus out there with really, really good and sound advice, Right? But the danger of a guru is simply your placing of that guru on a pedestal, right? When you do that, you get to a point where you believe whatever that person is saying without needing proof, which essentially or interestingly is hopefully at least the direct opposite of what an evidence based practitioner would actually want you to do. Okay, cool, cool, Max, get on with it. What is this like? Why is this actually a detrimental mistake?

Right.

The biggest issue with gurus is that they basically harbor an environment of closed mindedness, right? Kind of similar to what Danny boy was saying of pride. It's very rare for individuals to be really proud just about an idea around training that they came to themselves. That's just not a common thing because most people don't just come to these brilliant ideas on their own. Usually you hook to an idea because you heard originally when you were starting this task or this hobby, someone very convincing said something about that that then you latch onto and you have pride regarding it.

Right.

Anyway, I think the best way of kind of explaining this generally is just to use myself. And as an example here, I'm kind of throwing myself under the bus and this might cause some flack here down the road, but we'll see. So When I was 18, I watched a video of Mike Isretel, Dr. Mike Israel, talking about the basic principles of training for muscle Growth. He was. It was posted to Omar Esop's channel. I remember exactly where I was sitting when I watched this video. And I was hooked. Hooked. Red pilled from the start, right? I started consuming all of Dr. Mike's content I could get my hands on. So podcasts, YouTube, Instagram books, which, if you know anything about me, is crazy that I was willing to read a book that someone wrote for a scientist. I really freaking hate reading, okay? Anyway, it got to the point where basically any fitness content that I was consuming whatsoever came exclusively from Dr. Mike, right? And if someone ever said something to the contrary of one or of one of Dr. Mike's philosophies, I would basically write it off as that person clearly has no idea what they're talking about. And I wouldn't even try anything in the gym, basically, if, if, if Mike Israel didn't give it the green light of go, right? And in doing so, I not only limited my, you know, intellectual growth surrounding this topic, but I. I literally blunted my own physique development as well in doing so. This is the most important part of what I'm going to say on this topic, okay? This is in no way, no way Dr. Mike's fault at all. He constantly discourages people from doing the exact thing that I did with him, which was place him on a pedestal, right? And if I had chosen a different expert to prop up onto the same pedestal, I would have fallen into the exact same trap, right? So it's not like Dr. Mike was giving bad advice that led me to, like, slowing my progress, but rather it was that I was limiting my own scope of all the various schools of thought regarding training, and I was completely unwilling to experiment with my training whatsoever for fear of it being suboptimal. So that kind of showing my cards here I was on that end of the spectrum of, like, I just, I, you know, analyzing every little thing I could, right? But at the end of the day, the only person ever that can tell you what works best for you is you. And only after years and years of trial and error and experimentation with your own training. Now, obviously, if a coach is there with you, they obviously can tell you a lot about yourself and what works well for you. The point is you need direct observation of yourself or of a. Of a coach directly observing you for years and years and years for you to actually know what works best for you. Because remember what we said earlier, science never tells us exactly what to do.

It.

It gives us a flashlight that points us in the direction of where we should be going, but it does not give us a roadmap that tells us exactly where the X is that marks the spot.

Right.

And doing that year, or doing those years and years of experimenting with your own training is something that a close minded person with only one source of information is never willing to do.

Right?

So like using myself again. For a long time I thought that I had to be climbing sets, I had to be adding sets to my workouts week after week after week and then taking a deload because that's the RP meth and it's a great method I like. Again, none of this is me throwing shade at Dr. Israel, but it did not work well for me. It, I was getting injured very often. I was not progressing nearly to the rate that I am now not doing that method. And it was not because Dr. Israel's an idiot and doesn't know anything about training, but it was because he was giving his best advice he could based on the science that he had. And that science just did not apply to me super well as an individual, because science will never apply super, super well to just an individual.

Right.

So kind of just to tie all of this together. At the end of the day, how you think about things is far more important than what you think about things. Being open minded and being willing to experiment and try new things is going to take you so much further than one person's advice ever can.

Right.

So avoid dogmatic thinking and close mindedness as if the majority of your gains in life depend on it, because they probably do. Okay, that, that's it for me. As far as dogmatic thinking and guru mentality, do you have anything you want to add to that?

Yeah, I think there's a few strings that I want to go off there. I think the biggest one there is you sort of harped on, you know what works for you. And just to challenge that a little bit, I don't think you ever know what works for you, but I think you know what's working for you now. So I think a lot of people will say this method worked for me while not considering what led them there. It could be a second order effect where what they were doing previously, the fact that they changed from that or what, what they were doing previously sort of laid the groundwork for that next thing to work. So basically I, I'm trying to couch this so that people don't oversell that something really worked for them because there's no way of truly, truly knowing that something worked for you. You have, you know, greater or worse probabilities that something is working for you. But one super, super, super important thing and something that you can't discount at all is that it is currently working for you. If you know weight on the scale is going up, your lifts are going up, you're getting more jacked, then obviously whatever you're doing is working for you. Now keep doing what you're doing regardless of what that guru or what your, you know, best friend who's more jacked than you is saying. If something is working well for you and your rate of progress is commensurate with whatever is faster than what you've experienced before or is commensurate with what you would think would be the rate of progress at your current skill level, then stay the course. So I think that's one thing that people, especially with that sort of guru worship mentality will do. They'll jump shift from what's working for them to something that may work better and then end up in a place where they're doing something that clearly doesn't work for them. And I think the next thing that I wanted to cover, unless you have any comments on that you want.

No. Yeah, no. So I, I mean I couldn't agree more like, and I'll use myself as an example.

Right.

So for those of you who don't know, which is literally everyone except for my mom who's watching this, I have, I have some severe lower back issues. So I have pars defect in my L5. We don't need to go into like what that actually means. But basically it precluded me from doing any axial loading or hinging for a really long time. So Danny boy, when him and I first met, I was like, yeah, man, I can't do RDls. They just, they don't work for me. They, they don't and they didn't for a really long time. But guess what is like one of my favorite exercises now is the rdl. I think it is amazing. I can do it pain free. It's awesome. So yeah, even that's kind of the, the bigger takeaway is not that you, you know what's best for you, but it's just to be open minded because you probably don't know what's best for you at that given moment in time because you can't, you can't, you can never control for every variable. So yeah, that was, that was beautifully said, Danny. And please, yeah, don't feel, please feel free to challenge anything that I said. Obviously I would love to talk about it for sure.

And I think the next thing, which I think is kind of interesting and sort of goes along the lines of your experience with progressing sets and consuming Dr. Israel's content is. I think consuming content is a skill. And categorizing the type of content that you're consuming is super important, either by individual or literally by the messaging. So if somebody is saying something that is clearly couched, where they say, listen, this is what you can do, these are all the limitations, these are instances where people have done the opposite and it has worked and why and are coming at it from a bunch of different angles, then you can say, oh, now I seemingly have more of a full picture and have more roads which I can go down. But there's a very, very good reason why people for the most part don't do this. And it depends on a lot of things. The platform, their specific audience, who they are as a person. You know, they just prefer to, you know, be brief and concise. Who they believe they're gonna help more by being brief and concise. People just don't watch super long winded videos that are boring, that give you all the details. And oh, but consider this. Oh, but consider that people just won't stay engaged. So there's nothing wrong with content that just tells you what to do and gives you pretty good advice on what to do. The problem is you as a consumer should make sure that you categorize what you're watching and then interpret it accordingly. So if somebody's just telling you this is a good idea and it will work, and you can say, all right, what are the contexts where it wouldn't work? And what has the, if you're familiar with it, what has the literature said about this? Has another person who has a pretty good rationale countered this claim? Basically don't internalize a concept until you've really thought it through and maybe don't hold strong opinions about things that just don't have strong evidence. Like, I don't think that there's many, many, many things in our industry that should be held super strongly. And the amount of people that like scream at each other over their pet theories that have super weak evidence that we're just trying to sort of flashlight in the dark things is, is kind of entertaining. So as long as you appropriately interpret things, I think you won't be led down that path. And you can internalize, you know, keep what works throughout what doesn't. But when you start having to have an opinion on everything, this is one thing that I had to learn sort of the hard way. Early on you feel like because you're a lifter and because you're trying to do things based on the science, you have to have an opinion on everything. When you really, really, really don't like most of those things can be put into a category that are like, it may be kind of like important, probably not important and it doesn't matter that much. So don't over worry about the small stuff and have to create a framework. You can have multiple frameworks that you apply both to yourself and to other people. I literally on each topic have sort of like in my head lines that will go in multiple directions based on what the person has access to, what the person's lifestyle is, what their goals are, what they've been doing and literally just like if for variation. I honestly think tons of things work very similarly. So if you want to just try something out, I think for example, let's, let's put some examples on this. Progressing sets. I think if a person starts at 10 sets for a given muscle group and ends up at 15 sets for a given muscle group and they feel really, really good and they are progressing the difficulty throughout in terms of they start with three reps in the tank and they end up at one or zero. That could be useful for a person that perhaps likes to see load go up all the time and is just enjoys seeing week to week progress. They're that type of person. While a person who just wants to make sure that they're getting stronger on that specific lift might do something like three, two, one on each lift throughout their whole mesocycle.

Three, two, one. Rir. Rir.

Yeah.

So their first set, three reps in the tank. Next set, two reps left in the tank. Last set, one rep left in the tank and keep doing that throughout. They might not see week to week progress, but when they see the load go up they're like, I know for a fact that I got stronger on that specific lift. And you can, you can even do a combination of those things where some exercises, for example, like leg extension, keep 3, 2, 1. That way you get the sensitivity of knowing that you're getting stronger on that non compound lift. But with a compound lift you can go three. One week, two, one week and one to last week. So there's a combination of things that can be done based on a person's psychology, what they've done in the past, how they prefer to progress. And they could even do one during one portion of their lifting career, another during another portion of their lifting career. There's no need to be dogmatic because we have absolutely no idea which one of those works better. Just find what goes well with your life and be happy and get jacked.

Yeah, yeah. I think really, really beautifully said, Danny boy. And I think that I got a lot of stuff to say in regards to that. So. Like for instance, with getting good at consuming stuff.

Right.

With getting good at consuming content. Here's a good rule of thumb. If you hear someone speaking very hyperbolically. So if you, if you're constantly hearing this person use words like always, never in every case, constantly, whatever it may be, you know, turn that little skeptical hat up. That dial, just that dial of skepticism. Turn it up just a little bit. Because it is very rare for there to be something that is always or never in, in the field of exercise science and especially with muscle growth.

Right.

And then I had, I had something to add on to, to the last things that you were saying. But I, I, it's, it's escaping me right now obviously. But yeah, so. Oh, here, yeah. So anytime someone's speaking super confidently about something, just, it's same thing. Turn the skepticat up. Because look, guys, I, I, we're the Built With Science podcast. We should be telling you that science does give us all the answers and it can tell you exactly how to train, which is why you should be listening to our PODC are using us our coaching as opposed to others. But here's the thing. Science just really does not tell us that much. Like as far even how muscles contract, we have a rudimentary understanding of how that happens. Like literally how a muscle actually pulls your bones closer together. You know, we, we understand it better than we used to, but we still do not fully understand how that process works. So someone telling you that they truly fully understand all the things necessary to make you grow in the most optimal way. Turn that skeptical head up big time. That dial, turn that dial up to 11, essentially. Right, yeah. That was really well said, Danny. Is there anything else you want to do pull up on as far as the guru mentality?

I think that's good. Covered it well.

Cool. Cool.

Yeah. So big, big take home message from here is never consume any of RP content or Dr. Israel's content. Only consume built with science. But I'm joking. Dr. Israel, I love you. You know that? I love you. We, you funded my thesis, so thank you so much. Okay. Is there anything else you wanted to cover? Did you have any more mistakes that you wanted to gloss over or. We good?

What time, what time are we at.

A little over an hour or we're. We're just under an hour. So if there's one that you wanted to, to throw a quick little bone, you might guess.

I think that's probably good because I deleted the ones that I was thinking of covering. So.

Cool.

Thank you.

Okay, so then let's just tie this little John together, shall we? So my two biggest mistakes and the two biggest takeaways from those are stop chasing optimality. Because not only do we not know what optimal is, we don't know what optimal is for you all the time and we don't know what optimal for you is right now. Exactly. Really well said by Danny. And then my other is be open minded. Avoid latching onto ideas with your life as if they are a lifeboat that's going to take you to the destination that you want to go. Be open minded and don't be afraid to try new things in the gym. Muscle's really hard to build, but it's really hard to lose as well as long as you're doing the bare minimum of training. So don't be afraid to try new things in the gym because you're afraid that doing something slightly suboptimal is going to lead you to lose all of the muscle that you have.

Right.

And then Danny boy, you wanna go ahead and sum up your two points as well.

Yeah. So my two are, well, the first one's missing the forest for the trees. So if you're a bro, you think intensity is everything and you just need to work hard and everything else doesn't matter. Question that judgment. And then on the other side of the coin, which you covered, don't worry too much about the details to the point of missing out on consistency. And then the last one that I covered is just make sure that you get the appropriate coaching early on. Don't be too proud, don't go too heavy because your friends are watching. Don't get a training partner that's, you know, not consistent and you can't go to the gym without them. And along the lines of the missing forest for the trees, one supplements. They're definitely the cherry on top, but don't make that the reason why a person has a really, really good physique. That's clearly not the reason. Don't focus too much on it. Master the basics with the supplements and don't go too crazy over trying to find the next best thing.

Yeah.

Creating your own perfect amino acid profile. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful guys, as always, guys and gals, as always, thank you so much. For listening to the Built With Science podcast. If you have other topics that you want us to cover, please feel free to reach out to us at Instagram @builtwithscience or comment down below what you want to see moving forward. Thank you guys so much. Peace.