Meet Jessica Hickman - SPEAKER | EDUCATOR | AUTHOR

You're listening to Sparking Regional Joy, a podcast produced by Downtown Magazine and hosted by Anna Davis, where each episode we go behind the scenes of the inspiring, uplifting and fearless people of regional Australia. Sparking Regional Joy is proudly brought to you by Partner Now Property Tamworth, where Jackie Powell leads a team who are totally committed to all your property needs, giving you a personalised real estate experience. Every time one family, one community, they are your partners in property. Welcome to this episode of Sparking Regional Joy. I'm your host Anna Davis and after a long hiatus I am back in front of the mic showcasing the unique and vibrant culture of regional living and how it is pushing boundaries and making a meaningful impact on Australian society. Today we resume with season one of Sparking Regional Joy, which was our Women in Business season. In today's inspiring episode, we are diving deep into the transformative journey of Jessica Hickman, a remarkable force in the realm of workplace culture and business success. Jessica, who now calls Orange home, originally hails from Wales and has spent the past decade working with businesses across Australia, helping leaders foster positive change and development. Jessica is the founder of Bull Ology and the Upstand Academy where she has been at the forefron front of driving change through professional development, education and advocacy. Her work has taken her around the globe, delivering impactful training and keynote presentations in the usa, Canada, New Zealand and the uk. She's also a published author with two powerful books to her name, Bull Ology, Breaking the Silence on Bullying and also the Upstander. How to Develop and Speak Up Culture. Sorry, how to Develop a Speak Up Culture. In today's episode we delve into Jessica's motivation behind starting biology and how her personal experience with workplace bullying led to her led her to create a business that shines a light on toxic behaviors and promotes thriving, supportive workplaces. We'll explore her most memorable moments, including the launch of her second book and the extensive research she's conducted to develop her unique methodologies. Jessica shares her insights on self care and mental health, crucial aspects for anyone juggling the demands of leadership, she opens up about her strategies for maintaining balance, from meditation and yoga to seeking mentorship and investing in personal growth. We also discuss the challenges female leaders face today, with Jessica offering heartfelt advice to the next generation of women in leadership. She emphasises the importance of authenticity, kindness and leading with heart, alongside a realistic look at issues like gender based harassment and the pervasive tall Possive syndrome in Australia. Jessica's journey is a testament to turning adversity into a superpower her mission to build a generation of upstanders and end unnecessary human suffering is nothing short of inspiring. So without further ado, let's welcome Jessica Hickman to Sparking Regional Joy. Welcome, Jess.

Thank you so much, Anna.

It's great to chat.

Pleasure, pleasure. As I just said before, I had no idea you were Welsh until I heard your beautiful accent.

So.

It'S great to put a voice to the face I've been seeing in the magic.

Oh, thank you. It's my party trick.

I just love it. I love the accent.

Oh, thank you.

We're gonna dive right in here because we want to talk today, get as much information as we can pick your brain about your business. And because your business is multi layered.

Would you call it something like that? Always changing, always evolving.

Yeah, definitely. You're a woman with many hats and recently you've added mother to that. Congratulations. And I don't know how you do so much of, of the business with a newborn, but are you, are you surviving okay?

I'm doing very well. And touch wood, I've got, you know, someone said to me last week was a magic baby, but he has come everywhere with me since he's born, so I'm still navigating motherhood. I don't think you ever crack it, but I've kind of decided that he will adapt to my life as much as possible. So I am trying to take him to events and so far has been very good. And he does sleep for periods of time, so I'm still learning to navigate the constant fatigue. So far, so good.

I love it.

I think you hit the nail on the head, though. You're never going to fully, you're never going to fully navigate it. But the best, I think you're doing that best in terms of letting them adapt to your life is, is amazing because how you start is how you finish. So I think if you're, you know, if you're a business owner and you're a busy woman, they've got to sort of work with that because you're always going to be like that, aren't you?

Oh, absolutely. And we went on our first trip to Maggie on the weekend and that was a whole other complexity of learning to pack with the baby.

So.

Yeah.

How many extra bags? It's like, oh, my God.

Oh, massive. But yes, obviously I travel a lot for work across Central west and, you know, interstate. And I'm planning many international trips, obviously taking him home. And my book has just been in the UK Book Awards, so lots of opportunities are popping up internationally. So I'm going to have to learn to teach, baby, that we do travel a lot.

Absolutely. And look, as I said, if you're doing it from day one, he will, he'll be a natural born traveler. He'll be, he'll be just one of those.

Fingers crossed.

Yeah, he'll be very adaptable.

Let's get right into.

I would.

Yeah.

Tell our listeners about your business. You know, your new book, your, your business in. In terms of the. Below it. Is it bullyology?

Is that how you say it?

Yes. And the upstander.

So, yeah, give us a rundown of.

Everything that you do there.

Great, thank you.

So look, I didn't wake up one day and just decide to create a business that focuses on bullying, harassment, workplace culture and the worst of human behaviors. Like many people in this space, it unfortunately came from lived experience. So I just want to take you back to 2013. I came to Australia as like many a young ambitious backpacker on a three month career break. And simply when I stepped off the plane, I knew I wanted to stay in the country. The culture, the landscape, the beaches, even the party scene was very appealing to me as a 23 year old backpacker. And look, I was very fortunate that quite quickly I got offered an opportunity for a visa and a work visa and that found me getting dropped into the Northern Territory out back.

Wow.

In a role that I absolutely adored but came with his complexities. So my background in the uk, I'd worked in construction, my family have all been in construction and very male dominated industries. But my studies and work was in communities. So I worked for local council running youth dropping and homeless projects. So I was doing pretty well for a 23 year old into management positions. So I was waiting a full time role. Just finished my studies which I was doing along alongside full time and part time work. So I think I.

Preparing yourself for motherhood. You've got the juggling.

I like to juggle. I like busyness. I thrive off a busy mind and I like juggling a lot of things. I like being proactive and managing that. So I, I'm not one that can just kind of sit on my hands and do one thing.

Yeah, yeah.

That's why I have to teach myself in motherhood to be really present and.

Enjoy, which I am thankfully. But it is.

I say yes to a lot of opportunities.

Good. Y.

But look, I came up.

So you found yourself up there in the. In that role?

Yeah, I found myself in the NT.

And human resource position on a large oil and gas project. So 7 to 10,000 workers and I know anyone living in the Central West. We live in our mining and construction environment in Orange. You know, the Cadia Mine is one of our biggest employers, so pretty similar to that in the nt. So very, very challenging role. There was a lot of complexities around mental health, unfortunately suicide in the industry. So I used my experience working in youth and community in the UK to develop culture based programs in this environment. So I became quite successful in the role. I was nominated as exceptional woman in Resources Northern Territory young achiever. So not bad for a girl from Wales. Absolutely, yeah. In front of the Minister, you know, getting all this recognition and rewards. But more importantly, people were speaking up, we were changing the culture and people were starting to build trust. So this was great on paper, but unfortunately six months in I had a new manager and he had a very different leadership style or approach to myself. I'm kind, empathetic, believe that we should nurture and support every individual within the business. And unfortunately he was extremely toxic and I found myself in front of him being bullied and harassed, which actually lasted three and a half years.

Oh my God.

So outwardly I was super successful, winning awards. The client was asking me to join their board to talk about mental health, the impact, and looked great. Living on the other side of the world, living the dream. But I was really suffering and he bullied and harassed me, which started off subtly with job threats, threats on my visas, which escalated to accusing me of having interpersonal relationships with clients and people. He didn't really understand how a young female could be successful in this man's world.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And it progressed over time to him physically throwing files at me, sniggering and berating me in meetings, humiliating me, sending emails about me. So look, while all this happened over a period of time and we haven't got enough time today.

No, I know, but let's. This is, I think, you know, this is definitely. Let's go down this track because I think it's very important to get these. Okay. Yep, keep going.

I reported this. Okay. I reported this 32 times. And 32 times I was told, toughen up, princess, it's the industry or you seem strong and confident, you're doing a great job, it can't be impacting you that much. And I. Someone give me great advice to document it. So early on I started documenting not only the feelings, you know, Dear Diary, but more around fact.

Yes.

How many times I reported it and ultimately who was witnesses when you.

Just to jump in there when you.

Did report it was The HR department.

All male.

He was the HR department.

Oh, he was.

Oh, my.

Okay, Right. Okay.

Where do you turn when the person responsible for the people and the humans in the business is the bully? And that was ultimately one of the reasons why it started, because I was working in the HR department, and we built this culture of trust. And then the supervisors were coming to me and saying, hey, Jess, this person is experiencing, I don't know, marital breakdown, anxiety, stress, drug, alcohol, you know, lots of issues. They want to talk to you. And then he didn't like that. So while I was trying to save lives, signposting people. That ultimately put a target on my.

Back because he believed he was threatened by that. That you. Everyone wanted to talk to you.

Yes, exactly. So I then started to realize. Right. And this is my advice to anyone that's experienced bullying. It was never about me. It was always about his insecurities, his fear, and ultimately his power and control.

So he's very hard in the moment, though, isn't it, to. To separate that and. And because. Yeah, yeah. You know, as. As human beings, and especially one, as you said, like, I'm like you in.

In.

You take everything on, and you are that empathetic. Empathetic kind of human being that takes everyone's emotions on. And it's so hard, isn't it, when you're in that moment to. To separate that. That this is about you, not me. And I think, yeah, to absolute.

And. And I. People always say, well, why did you stay? One, because I loved the jobs. Job I was doing. People were ending their life due to suicide, and we were creating massive change so that the purpose was above my happiness at that stage. Two, I was on a visa, and a little Miss Stubborn thought, you will not push me out of a company for doing a good job, let alone a country. So I stayed for that reason, to get my visa. And I had a beautiful life. You know, I was in a new relationship. Thankfully, he's now my husband. And I didn't just want to walk away from a job I love because of a bully. But it wasn't until I ended up in a hospital bed. Anna. That I realized the complexities of being in a toxic environment.

Do you mind us asking what happened?

Yeah. Yeah. So June 2017, I collapsed at work from burnout, stress, and fatigue. And the telltale signs had been there many years before, becoming anxious, having sleepless nights, drinking far too much wine some weekends to suppress, you know, the thought of another week. And it actually escalated to me, sometimes physically vomiting before work developed Anxiety rash, which, again, when I'm delivering a keynote or event, often I can feel myself burning up while telling the story because my nervous system was damaged and still is and is heightened for such a period of time. And I was lucky that I started to get some support. I waited far too long to talk to a psychologist, almost three years. And I wish. No, I had that. You know, I was helping people with their mental health every day. Fill in everyone else's cap, but didn't.

Not your own.

Yeah. And that often happens with leaders and business owners and, you know, people take on a lot. And I always say, who's asking? The leader or the business owner? Are they okay? Because often we've got the weight of the world on our shoulders.

And you can't do what you do best either when you're getting to that stage of, you know, burnout, can. You've got all these wonderful services and, you know, you help people for a living, but you can't do that if you're not helping yourself first.

Absolutely. And that's the reason I do what I do. It was that moment of laying in a hospital bed going, wow, I was able to put on a brave face every day. I would imagine myself putting on a mask, going to work, smiling. I'm doing a great job, you know, helping lives. Someone even said, saving lives. Yeah. I would get home and be physically, emotionally and psychologically just beat up. Sometimes I just cry. I'd be fatigued. You know, relationships got impacted. I spent the majority of my time while up in Darwin, you know, single for three years.

On your own?

Yeah, well, sometimes, yeah. You know, falling into unhealthy relationships where I'd go on dates and then, like, ignore red flags because my confidence was on the floor. And it wasn't until I went and did a lot of work on self. And that leads us on to, you know, I found meditation, yoga. I spent a lot of time in Bali. You know, Darwin's only two hours away. And I worked four weeks on, one week off. And that was really me going to a retreat. You know, I was very fortunate that I had the means to do so. Going to a retreat locally or Indonesia, and having to work with healers to physically rebuild my. To go back the month to become extremely burnt out. And when we think about toxic environments. I later got diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder, which is crazy to think in this modern world, you know, very progressive country, Australia, that you can suffer ptsd, what people returning from war times does.

From a job.

From a job.

Yeah, from the. In the workplace. Do you look back now when you, when you, as you said, when you talk about it, you feel yourself burning up? Do you, do you look back now? And as hard as it is, it, that experience has led you to where you are now and, and, and your job and, and your success is because of that. I want to call in so many things that I can't on air, but do you think, well, thank you very much, mate, because you've made me into the woman I am.

Yes, absolutely. And laying in that hospital bed, it was kind of like I say to people, you know, I'm quite spiritual. I've had a massive awakening. I think that when you go to your darkest place, the only way is to find the light. And I can just remember laying there and feeling so fatigued and thinking, why did this happen to me? I'm on the other side of the world from friends and family. And this kind of like, I get a shiver when I think about it. This kind of like, energy moved through me and thought, this is your calling. If I'm suffering and, you know, in a position where I'm leading workplace culture, in a leadership position and still thrive, and who else is suffering? And from there I decided to share my story. So Bully Ology wasn't, you know, something I was born overnight. It was me deciding to actually speak my truth, share my story. And from there, that was just kind of the catalyst and I felt like the energy was behind it. When people share truth, that allows others to share truth. I started doing keynotes, I wrote my first book, which was the Bully Ologist Breaking the Silence on Bullying, where I shared my story and that, you know, the media started to be interested in the story and from there, then I had to lean on coaches and mentors to think, right, how do I build a business based on experience? How do I actually monetize this? Because, you know, there seems to be a little bit of shame where people would say, well, you can't charge for your experience. The bigger impact I have and the more lives that can be impacted.

Yes, yes. And it's not just about making money. The bottom line for you is getting your message out there, but you also need to make a living. And if you can, if you can.

Educate people on something that you've lived.

Through like that and make a difference for so many other people, you know, then do it. You know, it's like everyone talks about, well, you know, if you're going to start a small business or start your own business, make sure you're passionate about it. Well, it's exactly the same for what you've gone through, you know, and not that you're. You're passionate about bullying. Bullying, but you are passionate about changing the. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah. And that was the reason, really. And someone said to me the other day, like, oh, you know, how are you doing so much when you had a baby? And I said, well, it's not work to me, it's bigger than work. It's. And they, you know, the old quote is a bit cheesy, but find something you love and you never work a day in your life. Yes, yes, I'm really passionate about this. And I realized it wasn't just telling my story. And, you know, in my second book, which is called the Upstander Leader, how to Develop a Speak Up Culture, I realized, unfortunately, in Australia, almost the statistics say that almost half of Australians will suffer bullying at least once in their career or lives. And I was like, wow. So if it isn't you, Anna, you know, if you have gone through your career, not experiences that it could be your son, your daughter, you know, your husband, your sister. And I realized that we only have these conversations when someone is suffering in a hospital bed, suffering post traumatic stress disorder. So traumatized.

And it shouldn't get to that point, should it?

Exactly. But also with business leaders, they only have these conversations because they have to tick a box once a year maybe, or compensation claims are soaring or their reputation is damaged. And I was like, enough is enough. We need to be proactive to stop it getting to that stage.

Did you what happened to this man?

That's the biggest question and the most frustrating conversation. After reporting it 32 times, going through investigation, I left. And unfortunately, he's in an extremely high national role, which is infuriating, but still on his reign of terror. And that was a hard thing for me, Anna, because at the time I was, you know, really traumatized in another country. I had to pack up my life in Darwin, moved to Sydney in secret, pretend I went back to the uk. They told everyone I had women issues.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. And I had to give up, you know, well, I thought I had to give up this beautiful relationship. I recently got into a beautiful apartment and I went to Sydney and, you know, moved into a share house and went, how could I have been in this massive role doing the work I love to then, you know, being in a back bedroom in a cold apartment, having to rebuild and start again? And I think that that was a turning point for me. And look, I'm forever thankful, but I Decided that I wasn't going to create revenge. I didn't have the means or understand at the time how to, how to sue a large global, corporate, multi billion dollar company. A little old me.

Yeah, well, you never know. You never know. Watch this space. I say watch this space.

And now I know then the means and resources. But also I was fearful of being thrown out of the country. I became to love. He programmed me that the company owns me and he could control my livelihood and future. So now I'm out of that, you know. You know, looking back, I wanted to tell little Jess, run and leave the company. But at the time I was just so program and brainwashed that I believed that, you know, I would lose everything.

It's like, you know, it's like a battered wife syndrome in a way, isn't it? Because these, you know, people say, how do you stay with this, you know, if you mentally or physically abused in a relationship and unless you've been down that path, people don't understand why you stay. But they, they manipulate your mind. It's as you said, it's like a brainwash. And it's, you know, unless you've been in that situation, I don't think people can understand it.

But, well, that's, you know, the work that I do now on Saturday, I'm MC at the white tie ball for Housing plus. And I, you know, I like, I don't want to say I like to make the connection because that's not correct. But I always make the connection for workplace violence to domestic violence. Because Anna, if you came to me now and said you were suffering family violence, I would probably call the police. I would know where to sign, pursuit to support services. But most of all, I would know that the road to recovery and the scars are deep, is long. When we think about workplace violence, whether it's bullying, harassment, you know, gender discrimination, racism, and the list is so long, we don't have time for that. I, we're told that just leave the job, move seats, toughen up. It's the industry. This is work. But we.

How does that change? How does, how does that create change though?

How does it create change? But first is identifying that, you know, a toxic culture can damage long term. And that takes us on to what I do now. So I realized, unfortunately, we'll always have bullies, people who harass others and perpetrators of injustice, whether it's in the workplace, our community, school, schools, church groups, sports group. And I decided, right, okay. Reflecting on my workplace time and time again, my colleagues would hear me Be publicly berated, sworn at, have things flying across the room, you know, just, you know, being treated horrifically. And I think I felt infuriated. Like, how can good people turn a blind eye? And I realized the issue is that we don't know what to do. And there's a thing called the bystander effect where the best way I can describe this, Anna, is you're driving down the highway towards Sydney and a car's recently had an accident. As human beings, our natural instinct is to diffuse responsibility. If there's one, two, or even more people at the scene, we got, not my issue, not my problem. I'm in a rush to a meeting, to a sports game, to the pub, to the groceries, whatever, and. And the more people that witness an incident, research shows, the less likely we are to intervene. So how does this play out in the workplace?

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I realize that people look to the highest paid person in the room to deal with it. They say things like, it's above my pay grade or not my issue. Or we hear domestic violence or, you know, a couple having an argument in the house next to us. We may peek through the blinds, but we say, don't want to get involved in other people's business. On with our lives.

Do you think this is? Do you think this is though?

If they're not speak like, do you think it also comes down to personality?

Like, I could not imagine sitting there.

And seeing that and not being able to do or say something. Do you think?

Well, I would say you're an upstander, Anna. And it comes with skills, tools, and competency and confidence. But I realized in the workplace, if you know the highest paid person in the room, the CEO, the business owner, the leader actually laughs at that sexist joke or turns a blind eye or pretends they don't hear it. That's the culture that keeps. What happens if you say this isn't acceptable time and time again, like me, 32 times, and you're dismissed or made to believe that you're the problem?

Yeah, we.

That we have bystander fatigue. So I realized that, right. So rather than wait for things to be reactive, what I needed to do is create a methodology. And I decided in my work that I just wouldn't accept this as the status quo. So I said, well, rather than just accepting the bystander effect, what about if I created change? And I call it the upstander effect? And now I go into organizations, workplaces and schools and help people proactively understand, give them the tools, competency and capability to know how to call out that behavior, how to challenge the status quo and say, enough. Enough is enough. That often starts with leadership.

Yeah, it starts from the top, doesn't it?

But also, I realized since moving to the Central west, there's a lot of unconscious bias. Regional New South Wales country towns. And I've worked with organizations from many councils across the Central west to large government bodies, not to name a few, but also you. Small law firms, schools all across the Central West. And I realized a common thread, that it wasn't necessarily people intending to be toxic or using bullying language or, you know, harassing. It was a lot of unconscious bias. And I'll give you an example. Yeah, I was working with an organization and someone, you know, teams were getting in trouble and people were unhappy at work when I unpacked that it wasn't the fact that they would intentionally use in sexist language. But when I challenged this team or individual, I said, how would you feel if someone said that you're a father of three daughters. Correct. How would you feel if someone said that to your daughter? And you can imagine the response. It was like fists hitting the desk. Well, you know, I'm not going to repeat it because it's really. And I said, well, what makes you think that you can say that in the workplace to your colleagues? Like, well, it was just a bit of banter. And I said, well, would it be banter if someone said that to your young daughter in the workplace? And, you know, sometimes it's the light going on or the penny dropping. So I spend a lot of time looking at what upstander, you know, behaviors are in the workplace. And often it's challenging those com language or biases. And that goes with racism as well and sexism and bullying language. It's going to, you know, how would we feel if that impacted someone we loved and cared about? But I know that this was acceptable when you were an apprentice and you had initiations into the trade or, you know, you treated. Were treated like this as a female or male coming into the workplace, but with new laws and legislation, that doesn't stick in Australia anymore, and you can find yourself in a courtroom. And recently, the respect at Work report has come out, which basically says that companies need to be proactive in providing bullying and harassment training to their employees, but also need to show that they are being proactive to have these conversations, to have legislation and policies in place. And no longer is a piece of paper acceptable enough. Yeah, enough. Which is great for someone like me because I've been in business six years, and like any business, the first three years were me knocking on the door, many doors, government and, you know, corporations and going, we don't have an issue. Whereas now people come to me and say, jess, how can we be proactive? And look, Orange City Council was one of those. Dave Odell, the CEO, came to me. I said he was fairly new in the role and said, can you come in and do a cultural review and lift the rug? We want to be courageous and think, how can we create change? And I can speak about this openly because I've done a lot of podcasts with Dave, and I said, well, Rome wasn't on fire, but we had a couple of spotfires where we can improve unconscious bias. We can modernize the language, and we can consistently work towards that. So organizations. And I've been really surprised. Is the word surprised? Pleasantly surprised?

Pleasantly surprised.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How proactive some organizations in the Central west are and are coming to me now, which is great to say, you know, how can we be better? How can we create change? So anywhere from Orange City Council to double council. I'm working with Blaney Council next month. So it's great to see that some of the biggest employers across the region.

Are wanting to change.

And the thing is, too probably, Jess.

Does that then, you know, not only.

Does that make for a.

I can't think of a better word than nicer, but I'm sure there's, you know, a nicer workplace environment. But it would increase productivity, money, you know, it would. It would benefit in, so the work.

Like account, for example, they would.

The benefits of, you know, getting to the bottom of this and educating employers and employees about this, I can imagine would just. There would be so much benefit to a company. And, you know, again, not just that, that, okay, it's a, it's a nicer place to come to work, but those bottom lines and those figures and those budgets and profit, whatever they're going to, they're going to make, you know, that business is going to make more money out of their employees. They're going to be happier, they're going to work better. Like the flow on effect must be massive.

Massive. And look, I do a lot of work. People come to me after a workshop within their workplace and say, how can I have these conversations at home with my kids? How can I teach them to be upstanders? How can we create change? So I'm not naive enough to say that one workshop will create sustainable change. And that's why I talk about, you know, my mission statement is building a generation of upstanders. One person, one voice and one action at a time. So if someone can come to one of my workshops or events and walk away and challenge another person's language, instill those principles into their kids or family, that ultimately creates change. And that's why I love doing work with community organizations and schools because, you know, we catch kids when they're most influential and they can grow up to be upstanders and ultimately create and change the way our, our community interacts with one another and create change.

So can local council say, for example, schools and councils out here? I mean, I'm based in Tamworth. Do you travel as far. Like, will you travel? Sort of, you know.

Yeah, I travel.

Yeah, I know you said you go, you travel all the way to Wales, I'm gathering. But, you know, we, it would be great to. And not just for Tamworth. Like, there would be so many. Yeah, I just can think of, especially rural, you know, I live. Yeah, there's just so much call for what you're doing.

Yeah. And look, next week I'm working with the. What are they calling themselves? The Australian Agricultural Rural Leadership Foundation. And they've got leaders coming to Orange from all over the state where they're in, you know, various industries, there's various organizations as part of that. And it's great to see that people are really valuing this as part of their leadership programs, from farming to agriculture to local government. And, you know, I do work with small business as well. So teams that have got, you know, four to 10 people and they go right okay. Sometimes it's harder working in small business. Yeah. Dynamics and friends. Or friends. And I found that a lot of the time in regional areas as well, there's a lot of interpersonal relationships which can add to complexities around workplace culture.

Yes. And what's acceptable and what's not acceptable.

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So look, I do a lot of coaching with business as well because it's not necessarily that people bring me in because there's an issue of bullying and harassment. They say, how can we be better? How can we improve ourselves as leaders? Leaders or business owners? And how can we set a cultural tone? So I do a lot of like team coaching. I call it reflect and Connect, where we do a stop, pause and reflect every quarter with some teams to think about how we can operate better, how can we present ourselves publicly better and how can we improve our own well being. So some of the workshops I want to run are around well being and resilience, which really focuses on how to be our best selves because ultimately, when we're feeling great, that impacts how we perform at work and ultimately how we, you know, have our relationships and our family time.

So, yeah, everything, everything's connected, isn't it? It's sort of.

Yeah. And there is a lot of burnout across the Central west from an extremely resilient community of, you know, mice, plagues and bushfires and then pandemics and droughts. So a lot of people, a lot of organizations bring me in and there's just this common thread of we're just tired. We've been constantly on this hamster wheel of having to achieve more, do more, be more. And there's no off button. So I work with a lot of organizations and teams to support them to create some healthy habits.

Do you get a lot of. Do you get. I mean, I'm sure you'd get feedback, but. And I'm sure, sure it's, it's reward. It's must be very rewarding. But do you.

Yeah. Do you.

Is there anything in particular that you can do, the companies, you know, getting back in contact with you and, or employees and say, you know, I can't thank you enough. Like this environment has changed.

Absolutely. And the biggest, look, the, the biggest success of my career is going into organizations where there's a lot of naysayers. So you can imagine me go getting dropped in a mine in the Pilbara Wa, you know, even in the Central West. And next month I'm going down to West Wylon to work with women in mining. So there'll be, I think, 80 women in the room. And it's really rewarding to get the feedback from that. But sometimes it's really going into crib rooms with men that got their arms crossed. They're going, this is a load of bullshit. We don't need this fluffy shit. Sorry. But you know what?

Your, your three years of, of hell.

Let'S call it that prepared you for this. And that is where you got. Literally, you threw yourself in the deep end from the start. And nothing can be harder than what you went through.

Absolutely. And look, in my book, I talk about enrolling the naysayers. So like any organization, whether it's a council with frontline workers to a construction or I work with prisons as well. Did a contract with Justice Victoria and worked with eight prisons. So I think that one of my, to blow my own trumpet superpower is, you know, I'm a bit of a hardener. I'll go in, I'll call out the bullshit at the front of the room. And I've got maybe a skill that I talk about in my book that helps me enroll the naysayers. And they usually become the biggest advocates for this because usually people that are naysayers that because they've been let down by the organization, they say, well, we've wanted change and nothing ever gets done around here. So. So once you get under the skin or under the carpet of some of that frustration, they can become the biggest advocates for change. And I think back to the cultural change when I was actually on an oil and gas project and there was this hierarchy and it was a largely, we did have indigenous, but largely Kiwi or New Zealand workforce. So there kind of was, let's say, a bro that was kind of the leader and sometimes one of the elders that they respected. And they were often the spokesperson for the people on the mine or the project. And they were usually going, this stuff doesn't work, but we're losing lives. And often it was people. I found research in my book. No matter what industry, people want to feel seen, heard, and valued. When you give a voice to the people and they actually see sustainable change, that's how you enroll people. That's how you create change. And it doesn't happen overnight night. So thankfully now working with proactive organizations that want to spend money to create change, that want to actually listen to their people, that's where cultural change happens. And it's often the business owner, leader, CEO, or, you know, middle managers showing up, sharing their story and being vulnerable, where people Go, wow, they're only human.

They're. Yeah, they're only human.

That's the first thing I say when working with an organization. I don't care about fancy job titles. I don't care how much people earn in this, this room. We are all human beings. I don't want to hear about your job title. We're going to go back to basics and go, what do we need to survive and thrive? And when we come back to, you know, the needs or for they're not being met. And that's what causes deep upset, unhappiness and people to end up in a hospital bed like me.

Do you. There's a couple of things I want to ask. So one, do you think predominantly in.

Your experience and what you've seen are.

These people that I guess so reluctant one reluctant to change into the bully. The bully is, you know, like this. I think we need to come up with a name for him. I'm sure you have already but it's probably not appropriate for air. But you know, your bully. Are they of an a different generation? Have you found that it's a generational thing or not necessarily?

Yes and no. And I have a whole chapter in my new book about the generational change and I don't like to pigeonhole people because people get upset by that.

Yes, yes, I understand.

Yeah. What I've researched through my book and I, I talk to thousands of people and interviewed people. We do have a generational shift and I can speak from my personal experience. So when I launched my business 27 years old, you know, my grandparents were job philosopher life suck it up. We stay in a job, we stay in an industry because that's all we ever know. And then we. There's a lot of business leaders that are baby boomers or you know, Gen X's and there are a lot of people coming into the workforce now. And you know, we talk about the era of social media and Gen Zs and there's a lot of myths and misconceptions around. They're over privileged, they want to work from wherever. They don't know how days work, which can be true, but also undressed true. And I've realized my biggest aha moment well discussing generations was that people entering the workforce now the Gen Zs, you know, I'm a millennial is we want to work for organizations that have purpose. We want to be doing work that is, you know, whether it's environmentally green or we give back a percentage to charity or we can feel like we can express ourselves and share about our passions and belief. Beliefs. Whereas typically previous generations or, you know, workplaces was very hierarchical. Hierarchical. I can't say the word.

Yes, yes, no, no.

Yeah. It was, you know, the boss's way or the highway. It was, you know, lead with a iron fist. Whereas now it's more. People want to have their voice heard and it was, you know, taking it back to seeing heard and valued. So my advice to, you know, anyone listening as a business owner, a leader, was, are you creating space? Space to listen to what your people need and opportunities for people to bring their whole selves to work, to share their passion, to contribute in a way. And it's not always salary based. So before people were led by just, you know, to me, oh, come on, Jess, please don't leave. Here's another 10K. And, you know, here's another, you know, this and that. And people aren't driven by as much, of course. It is a big factor. But people look above money now and think, am I valued? Am I seen? You know, can I.

Is this serving me well?

Yeah. Do they appreciate that I'm a working mum or dad? You know, do they have opportunities for me to work from home so I can be a flexible caregiver? Do they have domestic violence, a policy in place that if, for God forbid, you know, I suffer family violence, that I know where to get help? Do I feel safe to ask for help? Help. So people are looking for bigger things now.

People's check. Yeah, their check boxes have changed, haven't they, in terms of what they're looking for in. In a job? Because it becomes your life.

Yeah. So to go back to the generation, you know, people are perpetrators of injustice across all generations, so it been naive for me to pigeonhole them, but generation coming into the workforce, you know, one of the clients locally said to me, how do I manage these, you know, bloody Gen Z's and this and that. Have you asked them what they want? Oh, no. You know, I read all this online. I said, well, it would be. Start with, no matter whether they're Gen Z's, millennials, Gen X or baby boomers, you need to ask people what they want. And it will vary from person to person based on personality and needs.

Do you find some people complain like, I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here a little bit. And do you find that, you know, because a lot of things in this day and age have gone so far the other way, you know, any example pronouns or, you know, is it a he or she or. I don't Want to offend her or, you know, some things have gone so far the other way that they're going, oh, well, if you look at me funny, you're bullying me. Do you find that?

Yeah, yeah. Look, without going on to, you know, genders or this or that people in the workplace, you will always have people that are more sensitive than others, whether it's family or communities. So a big part of the work I do, Anna, is identifying what isn't bullying because it's all, well and this is bullying. But also, you know, I recently worked with someone who was accused of being a bully and I know that person is a fantastic leader and I always, you know, I talk to people about performance management. So if you do performance management correctly, that isn't bullying. But if someone is being performance managed because they're late or they never show up for work, it's easy to say I'm being bullied.

Exactly, yes. Yeah, yeah.

So it's important to understand what is and what isn't bullying. But also unfortunately, we're always going to have people that are hypersensitive and we have to tiptoe around them and we can't please, please a lot of people. And that goes equally with, you know, people joining the workforce if they're not feeling valued. My biggest advice or they're being bullied. People often get confronted in organizations where I say my biggest advice is to leave. People go, what? We've got family, we've got house and kids. And I go, I know I was that person that stayed too long. But is this job that doesn't value you worth your livelihood, your mental health, your physical health, your psychological health? If a boss is belittling you or intimidating you or a colleague or peer, is it worth the long term effects on the down damage? So look, it is an important conversation and someone said to me the other day, like one of the a guys, a guy in a really male dominated, he said, oh, are you going to come in and talk to us about this walk crap? Oh, depend, it depends what you think of it. But you know, if someone impacted your family that way, would you think it was walk or got equal rights? And I say, you know, my, one of my biggest missions is to end workplace and unnecessary suffering. Because I think in this day and age we should be able to go to work and leave psychologically, emotionally and physically intact.

Absolutely. We should be able to go anywhere and feel that way. Like it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

Do you think from your experience again.

And because I feel that you Know, even someone that's, you know, gone to university to train in psychology or. But someone that's lived it, like yourself, would have a better idea of this. Do you think these people that these bullies or, you know, people in the workforce, they might, they might not necessarily be bullies, but their behavior is bullying.

Do you think that starts at home? Like, do you think that starts from.

When they were like younger? The home? Like, do you think it starts earlier? Are they, are they, do you get what I'm saying?

Is this ingrained in them?

Yeah, yeah. Look, I haven't got the research in front of me, but I do know kids, kids that have experienced family or domestic violence often learn behavior, so they can often, in research, either become the bully themselves or be a target of bullying. So if. And that's why I'm so passionate, Anna, about restorative justice. And people always talk about, you know, my bully. I don't hate him. I wish him the best. I hope he gets the help and healing he needs.

Yeah, exactly.

When then that moment when I could look at him with empathy and think, wow, what.

I feel sorry for you. Yeah, yeah.

What much you be experiencing or have experienced that you need to inflict so much pain and hurt onto another person.

How miserable must your life be to be able to do that to someone else? Yeah, yeah.

So that was freeing and healing for me. And when I work with schools or community groups or even workplaces, you know, it's easy to write off the bully, but I like to find out, okay, so. So particularly kids, you know, why is a 10 year old kid present in this way? Why is a 14 year old, you know, child behaving this way? What must they be going for? What have they witnessed and seen? What have they learned? And sometimes, you know, we do know that kids can be bitchy, they can be horrible. And it's about, you know, finding our way in society. And I look back when I was younger, you know, being in groups of girls, sometimes we were just, you know, mean girls.

Yeah.

And that's why I try to identify that word. Words last a lifetime. And when we think about bullying, you know, this old saying is, sticks and stones may break your bones, but names will never hurt you. And that's so untrue because, you know, broken bones heal.

Yeah. Name. Yeah. Yeah. You don't forget what someone said.

Absolutely. So to answer your question, you know, I do think that bullies are extremely unhappy because I don't know any happy person that inflicts pain on another, do you?

No, absolutely not. And I just. When you said you went to schools, I just thought how, like, that is so important because my sister is a high school teacher and she works in a. I always get the name of her role wrong. And she gets so angry. It's not a. It's not learning support, but it's like. So she helps the kids that are, you know, having suicidal thoughts or being bullied or she's not the school counselor, but she sort of helps them then so they'll come to her and they can work with her if they're getting, you know, in the classroom, if they're getting. Having a hard time or even at home. So she. And she literally said, you know, they are so understaffed. They are literally every day trying to. She said every day that she's got someone coming into her that she's just trying to keep alive, let alone, you know, worried about something. Something so minor and the system isn't recognizing that this. And I'm, I'm. I do blame social media. I mean, I, you know, I think that it's got a massive part of it. But for me to be able to do for you, for example, to that have these skills and learned, you know, and your business, in terms of educating people on this to, to go to schools, I think is, yes, of course, what you do in workforce, definitely important. But just to start from the bottom and educate these kids and really sort of, you know, get them before they get to that stage where they're a manager or, or an employee or whatever it is, is. Is really wonderful because I think that. That they're struggling. I know, you know, from firsthand hearing my sister talk about, you know, she doesn't talk about direct cases, but just seeing the emotional impact it's having on her as a teacher and because she's, you know, she's one. She's like me.

She.

She doesn't just go to work to get paid and walk out the door. She literally takes it all on. You know, she will be ringing parents at midnight to make sure that this child is okay. You know, and it's just. Yeah, it just. I think being able to be in schools and educating these kids on what this looks like and how this can affect people would be wonderful.

Thank you. Yeah. Look, it is a big job, and if anyone is listening and, you know, thinks this would be appropriate for their workplace, community group school, please do reach out to me. I like to support people.

And if someone does want to get in touch, is it best just to give you, like, a phone call or Email. How does someone say, we want you to come and talk to us?

Yeah, look, if people listen to this need help with bullying, visit bullyology.com and I'm sure you can put this in the show notes, but on that website I've developed it as a resource center. So whether you're a parent wanting to know how to get information on, you know, sex, then cyber bullying, bullying, or whether you're a leader or someone in the workplace that needs help with bullying, there's a lot of downloadable fact sheets and help on that. So to book or, you know, get more information on me coming into your workplace, visit jesshicman.com that's where I speak about being an upstander. I do a lot of my coaching. So across the two websites I've got lots of information and resources on how I can help you. Again, I'm on social media, Jessica Zoe Hickman, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, Jessica Hickman. But you can find all my social media platforms and my new book via my website, jesshican.com yes, we will definitely.

Put all those up in the show notes for everyone. And just quickly, before we go, I just want to talk about your two books. Can you just run through, just give us a brief because you do have a new book that's recently out. Can you just give us a quick rundown on your first book and your second book and then we will let you go back to your baby.

Thank you. So my first book is called called the Bullyologists Breaking the Silence on Bullying. You can get this on Amazon. And my second book, which I'm so excited about, is in all major bookstores and airport.

Congratulations.

Thank you. Look, if you're in Orange where I am, it's at Collins Bookstore. And the second book, the first book was really telling my story and looking at data around bullying, which was an educational research piece for me. The second book is my my Upstander movement, teaching you how you can move from bystander to upstander through my five step methodology. And I'm very excited about this one because it's in many book awards. I'm patiently waiting for the UK to wake up to find out whether I was a finalist and it was a bougie ball and obviously with a 11 week year old I couldn't fly. So I'm waiting to find out how my book did. I was. Yeah. In the top few finalists of People Culture Management.

So even to get in the finalist, Jess, that's incredible.

So I know in the UK as well.

Amazing.

Yeah. So look, please Buy the book, support it, gift it to someone that may need it and use it as a toolkit. But again, if anyone listening wants to reach out to me, look, my inbox is always open. If I can't help you, I'll sign post you to the help unless need.

Yeah, that's fantastic. No, I think and you know, I always say it's like you know, a child seeing a, I've had this age old argument with, with friends or relatives or whatever about a child seeing a counselor or psychologist. But be my, you know, and it's always the other generation. I think that's why I asked that question. Oh no, they don't need that, you know, good bit exercise, run around and for me, you know, I believe and it's to me it's like your book. You cannot go wrong with having extra tools in this life to manage situations because even if you're not a manager, even if, even if you're not experiencing bullying to get to read your book, the upstander you will, you will thrive more in your life, I can imagine by having those emotionally intelligent tools. Am I right?

Well, absolutely. And look, I'll just leave you on this thought that through generations we've celebrated someone for having a physical body. If they go, or he or she, you know, they go to the gym, they're like, oh wonderful, look at them, they got this magic physique. Yet when someone works on their mental health, which is the key to everything, it's a stigma and we still feel shame. And I do think generationally we are changing that. And I see, you know, psychologists, Reiki masters, yoga, Pilates, I even had a Buddhist life coach one day constantly wanting to know how I can evolve my psychological, emotional and you know, physical health. Yeah. Because ultimately we are whole and segregating them and creating shame around one of them is, you know, not how we live a healthy, happy like it makes.

You a better mother, a better friend.

A better wife, a better partner, a better daughter. Like these things aren't just about being better at your job or you know, that the flow on effect that you will have for working on yourself in these areas to me is massive and everyone should be doing it.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Well, thank you Jess, so much. Honestly, I know we didn't talk too much on the questions but to me what you spoke about is way more important. And you know, you are in our women in business issue and we talked about just, you know, in terms of the role, role in you know, being a female entrepreneur. But I think your experience and, and how you've built your business is all of those things, you know, to be your struggles, your, your highlights. We, we covered it all anyway, because I think, and it's very important to tell your story. I think it's very important to educate people in that area and I am sure that there are going to be many people reaching out to you. So thank you very much for coming on and chatting to me today, today.

Thanks, Anna. And in adversity, we can find our greatest gift. So thank you for having this bold conversation.

No, I, I, I love it, I love it, I love it and I think it's, yeah, I think it's very, it's given me goosebumps, actually, but it's, yeah, it's, it's something that neat. People need to hear about, you know, it's the, it's the real world and I think we, you know, what did I say? Not just the shiny PR version. We've heard all that before.

Yes. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

Before we go, I'd like to give a special thanks to our premium sponsor, Partner Now Property Tamworth. It's their unique personalised approach that gives their clients comfort in knowing that they understand that it's not just a property decision they're making, but a life decision. Together with Partner now, the community is building homes to be proud of. Head over to their website, website www.pnre.com to find out how they can support your property journey every step of the way. Sparking Regional Joy is a podcast produced by Downtown Magazine and hosted by Anna Davis. As we wrap up today's episode, I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to Jessica Hitman for sharing her incredible journey and and invaluable insights with us. Jessica's dedication to creating positive workplace cultures and her transformative work with bulogy and the Upstand Academy is truly inspiring. Listeners, I encourage you to visit Jessa's website to learn more about her impactful programs and resources. Follow her on Instagram for daily motivation and updates on her latest projects. And don't miss out on her books, Breaking the Silence of Bullying and the Upstander. How to Develop a Speak Up Culture. These books are essential reads for anyone looking to foster a more inclusive and supportive workplace. All links to her websites and Instagram page and also where you can purchase Jess books can be found in the show notes for today's episode. I'll leave you now. Now with Jess's favourite quote which is Rome wasn't built in a day. Small, consistent steps lead to lasting change. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast for more inspiring stories from the heart of regional Australia, and stay inspired, keep pushing boundaries and continue to make a difference in your communities. Until next time, we spark regional joy. Thanks for listening.