The Upstander Effect - Jessica Hickman

Really look at your own behaviours and actions and empower yourself to be an upstander and really look at your own leadership and it doesn't have to be a tight oath. And really see how you can be a change maker in your personal and business success and how you can impact someone's life today by just having a courageous conversation, being vulnerable and being authentic.

Hi, this is Julie Hyde. Thanks for joining me on Making It Count, a podcast dedicated to inspiring leaders and business owners to to be even better leaders, to create a great culture, empower their people and be more productive. So let's get into it. My guest today is the courageous Jessica Hickman. As the founder of Bullyology and Upstand Academy, Jessica is known globally as the Bullyologist. Bullyology is a professional anti bullying methodology derived from personal experiences and meticulous research dedicated to breaking the silence on bullying while striving to promote healthy workplace relationships. Jessica's mission is to create a thriving workplace cultures where individuals are empowered to be upstanders rather than silent bystanders. Jessica has worked across the UK and Australia in multiple industries, including public and private sectors. She's known for her work delivering an improved workplace culture, delivering multiple industry awards. Jessica describes how she now uses her adversity as her own superpower to make a difference for others. She has fire in her belly and is super passionate about this and really driven to make a change. In this space, we chat about Jessica's journey to becoming known as the buliologist, the upstander effect and what that means. Tips to becoming an upstander, the shift in bullying now that more people are working from home and how we can all make a difference in this space. This is a really important chat. It's something that I know you're going to get a lot of value from and understand how we can all lead ourselves in reducing the amount of bullying, not only in our workplace, but in our lives. So enjoy my chat with Jessica.

Welcome, Jessica.

Thank you so much for having me today. It's a pleasure to be here and have a chat.

Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you and we've got so much to talk about, so I just love to jump straight into it, if that's okay with you.

Perfect.

Awesome. So, Jessica, can you tell us a bit about your background and how you've landed to where you are today? And I'm thinking that the accent that I'm hearing is clearly a UK accent.

Yes, you're correct. So I'm obviously Jessica. I'm from the UK. I'm from Wales and I landed in Australia in 2013, just me and my backpack looking for a new beginning. So if we fast forward prior to that. I grew up in Wales, lovely kind of country village, beautiful near coastal to a town. I was in between Swansea and Cardiff. I always get people asking me are you Swansea? Are you Cardiff? Particularly football supporters. So more towards Swansea. But yeah, it was a great life. My background in the UK was from a young age always involved in social impact work. So at the age of 23 I was working a full time position in the construction industry as an office manager, running the team of admin staff across three job sites. And in the evenings, which was my passion was I worked for the local government in council running youth drop in centres. So I'd been in that position from the age of 14 really where I put my hand up in the local youth club and volunteered to be a which I now know was mentored into the position but really was always had a thirst and a passion for helping others, fighting against social injustice and kind of being a leader in my own right of championing change. So I progressed through that, through that kind of employment as such. By the time I was 17 I was offered a part time position alongside studies. Didn't really want to go to university at the time, like I just want to get into the workplace and create change. And at 18 then I was offered a manager supervisor position running a team of the evening staff. And I realized then and they basically said to me you need to actually get your degree in youth and community work. So for the next three years I worked the full time job as office manager, the part time work running a team and also studied in university. So when I graduated at 23 I was like right, that's it, I'm in two management positions. I ideally would like to work in the youth service full time or maybe in the prison or kind of really changing lives. Was many jobs at the time due to government cuts. I was like, right, I'm going to pack my backpack, go overseas, have a think about what I want to be and what I want to do and who am I? And I guess maybe it was ego at the time. I was like, I'm 23 and at the top of my game, where do I go next? After one of my mentors basically said to me for your age right now you're in a position like where you'll be in a really good position so you need to kind of sit it out for a couple of years. And I just didn't want to do that. So looking back, was that the right advice? Not really sure. But it drove me to travel. So yeah, I decided to take a three month career break and found Australia my home, the culture, the people. I backpacked around Asia and Australia for six months and then I received a call offering me a job and it was a human resource position, Darwin. So I didn't really know what I was in for. To be dropped in the outback on an oil and gas project with everything between 7,000 and 10,000 workers. Predominantly a male dominated environment. But I was up for the challenge. So I went from a backpacker overnight to in a company car apartment, initially flown to Perth in the corporate office when I was kind of trained on the job and then dropped in Darwin as one of the first persons in my company recruiting and managing resource department on this oil and gas male dominated job site. So I guess that's really what led me here. But I guess that was really the start of my story of really what has shaped what I'm doing today.

Yeah, amazing. So that's such a, like a sliding doors moment. So you traveled over here, you found your home, pretty much resonated with the culture and thought, yeah, well I'm going to stay.

So yeah. And anyone that's from overseas, it's the dream to be offered a sponsorship visa to stay in the country and residency. So basically in my job interview the guy said to me, hey, what are your plans? Are you looking for something short term to fund your travels? Are you looking for a career where you can make impact in a difference? And obviously I chose the latter. And day one on that job is when I realized that I had a big job on my hand. And the word suicide was mentioned particularly around men in the industry and the high rates of male suicide in the construction and fly in, fly out industry. So I had a big job where we had workers living on camps away from their family and friends and their livelihoods for a month at a time. So that come with the downward turn in mental health, drugs, alcohol, sex addiction, gambling, everything you can think of of a male dominated environment and a boys club and people just living for their week off which came every fifth or sixth week where they'd fly home, recharge, reset and there was marital breakdowns, this kind of despite and flight and striving where I realized, wow, the environment was tense and that's really where I was able to create change for the first time. Where I realized that leadership doesn't need to be a job description. It can be empowering people to take Leadership of their own life. And that's where we worked in partnership with some external providers and set up some culture mental health based programs, raised enough money to get a mental health worker and you know, we didn't really know the stats because if it wasn't, if it didn't happen on the job, it wasn't classed as suicide in the workplace or linked. But they were reported that there was five suicides, seven suicides. People weren't returning from swings. And I know on many occasions if a worker didn't come to work, I had the grim task go into their camp room to check that they were okay. So it was unknown and it was a really, it is and it was a really hard environment but I loved it because what we did was break the stigma and the barrier. And if you can imagine a young girl from Wales standing in front of Kiwi and Aussie scaffold as a sea of faces saying let's talk about mental health and our feelings, it was a big thing. But I did that and in the first six months I started to win awards in front of the minister as Northern Territory young achiever. But more importantly, people were taking leadership and ownership of their own mental and physical and emotional well being and seeking the help they need and we created a family feel. But six months in I had a new HR manager and unfortunately my life drastically changed. Where our values and mission in life really didn't align and his leadership was one of dictatorship and toxicity. Where he came with his, what we call at the time, people would say, you know, his Hitler rein, where he bases leadership on fear and control. So everything that we were trying to create a cohesive, supportive, emotionally intelligent workforce and team, he, yeah, he operated from a different internal mechanism which really led to me being bullied and harassed for three and a half years. Unbelievable.

That's. I just hate hearing those stories. It's just so heartbreaking. So what did that lead to for you? Because that your story has been the catalyst for creating your business and you're known as a bullyologist. So to what point did you have to get to to say enough is enough here? Because we hear about a lot of people who have been bullied and they don't say anything and they put up with it until it gets to a certain point. But I know in your story it really affected your physical and mental health.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think looking back and I look at the person I was then, fortunately I journaled throughout the whole experience which has led me to write my first book. And that really was A catalyst to me looking back and going like, who is that person? Because he mentally, physically and emotionally beat me down. And I guess that there was a level of resiliency where I had a bit of a toolkit that I felt built over time, whether it was my self study or me seeking some help through meditation, mindfulness, holistic healing that really I was working a month on and every fifth week off and I was flying myself to Bali, checking myself into a retreat. So Bali is only two hours away from Darwin, refilling my cap and then going back and going right. I just need to serve the people for another month. That's really not sustainable, particularly people in leadership positions where they're really kind of like burning themselves out, serving the people. And a big question that I led to myself was like, who is asking the leaders and organizations, are they okay? So I guess it lasted so long. One, because I didn't want to leave the organisation because I was told and I was fearful that if you leave, someone you care about will probably end their life because they've got no emotional support or they don't trust anyone in leadership positions. So a common thread was my supervisors coming to me and saying, hey, can you help this person? They're going through xyz but don't tell. And then naming three people who are the leaders of our organization because they weren't bad people, the bully was, but they were lacked social and emotional intelligence where they'd been promoted into positions that they weren't suited for and didn't know how to manage a team of complex needs. So it was just poor management at all levels and particularly for me, I reported the bullying 32 times to senior management and corporate office with mixed results and told that you're the tough one, you're confident we'll sort him, we'll have a word with him. To the point where my physical and emotional health was so damaged that it started with physical things that I didn't make. The mind, body, connection with repetitive strain injury, gut health, aches, pains to then develop into sleepless nights to PTSD where I'd wake up in a hot sweat fearful someone had passed away and it'd be my fault, which I told because I opened the can of worms and mental health. So all of these kind of physical effects to the point where I'd sit at my desk, he'd nudge my chair, he apparently hex my computer. So the fight and flight and the constant strain and stress that I was in, I was burnt out. And I remember one day just pinching this off my fingers because I was so numb, I was so disconnected from myself that I was just, yeah, so. And also I say because I was on a visa, so there was a part of me, a little miss Stubborn, I call it thought why should I be pushed out of an organization, let alone a country, for being a good person? I will not let this person break me down because that's exactly what he wanted. But I didn't realize that it would take me collapsing at work and ended up in a hospital bed on the other side of the world from friends and family to really, really take charge of my own life and go, right, enough is enough. I can't save this organisation. I'm the person in charge of the culture. I'm also the fraud and the guilt where I was masking what was happening in the boys club, the leadership team and really putting on a brave face and winning awards and all our clients and other. There were 32 other companies on this project and I was the, the face. You know, my name was on banners. I was the International Women's Day where I was sitting on the Japanese clients, board of directors, the cultural expert. But yet in my own small subcontractor package, it was so toxic that even when the clients were questioning what was happening, they heard whispers. I felt the need to protect my company out of pride and loyalty. And I guess that loyalty really led to my emotional, physical and psychological health really being compromised to the point where I collapsed at work and they thought my appendix had ruptured. But it was at that point I knew, right, enough is enough. So, yeah, I tried to work my months again. I lied out of pride. I said, oh yeah, I've got some issues and I need to get checked out. And then rumor spread, oh, she's got female issues. You know, emotional female, typical male dominated environment. And I was kind of, yeah, ushered out, really to the point where I moved to Sydney in secret for three months. And again, this was. I came to Australia with a backpack to start this dream life. And on the outside, on social media, it was. I was living the dream. I was feeling accepted, I won all these awards, I was going back and forth to Bali. But internally I was broke and crumbled and had no direction. So, yeah, I packed up my nice apartment in Darwin. When I built a life and a friendship group, I moved to Sydney and found myself sitting in a back bedroom of a rented shared house going, okay, so what has just happened? Three and a half years and what next? And that was really the catalyst of me starting my Business and founding Bullyology.

Yeah, Amazing, amazing story. It's a heartbreaking story, but it's also one of such courage and resilience on your part and now using that for good. So for changing people's lives and for changing people's stories, hopefully a lot earlier than yours changed. So tell us about the buliologist and what you're doing.

Yeah. Okay, so I guess it was in September 2019. I ended up in the hospital bed in January 2000. Sorry. In July 2019, I was really trying to find myself, finding myself in the big city of Sydney. And I was. And I guess at that point I was like, I don't want to be a victim of my circumstances. I guess everyone was saying, like, oh, so sad what had happened to you. Like a terrific story. But in my heart I always knew that it happened for a reason. And I made the conscious decision to turn the adversity into my superpower or my greatest gift and really start to share my message about how this is happening in the 21st century in the modern day world and how it's widely swept under the carpet, the elephant in the room. And good people become bad leaders because they just don't know how to deal with toxic people in organizations, particularly when they sit in the C suite or in power positions. It's just accepted that we hope this goes away. But the financial, physiological, psychological, emotional and team culture is really like torn apart. When I started to have conversations with leaders in my network, they really didn't actually know the financial cost or the impact. It was just knowing that, yeah, we would just deal with it. And my mind was asking questions, how would you deal with it? Oh, you know, we would chat with them or we'd give them support. And I said, well, this is what happened for three and a half years and this was reported 32 times. And this is how it escalated. And they were like, oh, I would never let that happen. And the common thread was, oh, I would never actually be bullied because I'm a strong, confident person. And then I realized that, ah, okay, so there's a misconception here where people assume that you bullied for being different, looking different, acting different being, you know, whatever it may be, skin color, different accent, whatever. It's going to be like being different mainly or being incompetent in your job. And I realize there's not enough education to understand that. Usually people, on many occasions, in my case I got bullied because I'm highly competent, emotionally intelligent, likable and have thirst for success and a likability in an organization. And that really threatened the bullies. Power and control, like bullying is always about power and control. And when I started to talk about my message, a lot of people would inundate me with messages saying, it's me, what's wrong with me? And I guess I look back at how I lost my own self worth, self esteem, question my leadership, question my luck, because you told me, oh, you're only successful because the way you look. So I started to like, really think about, oh, am I actually only so I could watch myself question my competency and think, oh, really? Do they only ask me to this meeting because I'm a female? What? So I realized that there's a lot of education to make people understand that people who suffer bullying, it's never about you as an individual. It's always about the other person's incompetency, need for power and control, and probably feeling inferior that maybe you would shine a light on their need for success or lack of their competency. So I created Bullyology and I again, young girl, I was 27, on the other side of the world, not knowing how business works. So I just thought, I'm going to throw my heart and soul in this lead with my heart and attract the right people to help me navigate how to create this message and really knock on the door of major organizations and corporations and say, hey, let's look at the elephant in the room. Has it been an easy journey? Absolutely not. I'm talking about a topic that people would rather not talk about. But yeah, I've written a book. I run workshops, everything from half day to full days due to Covid of recent, you know, everything's gone online. And I guess that's how we met because you joined in one of my webinars.

Absolutely. So, yeah, I love that. I love that you are talking about leading with your heart and just throwing your heart and soul into this. And I can absolutely imagine the journey has not been easy because it is often something that people don't want to acknowledge. You know, if there's bullying in an organization, people see that as a failure on their part. And also people just don't want to deal with with these situations. There's so much avoidance of these situations, which I'm sure you've seen, of course, and why it just gets to the point that it does sometimes. So, yeah. So now when I did hear your webinar, you were talking about the upstander effect, and I absolutely love that. So can you explain a bit more about that and you know the difference. There's the bystander, there's the upstander, and that's really your call to action now, isn't it?

Yeah, definitely. So what I've realized in these conversations is that people tend to think of bullying as the bully, the target or victim, and think that it just lays between two people or a group of people and an individual. But what really needs to. To be addressed and have a conversation, and particularly this was a learning and reflection on my own bullying. Good people just stood by and watched it happen, not because they were bad people, again, because they didn't know how to deal with it. So there would be colleagues who would see the bully show, file at me, swear at me, call me in confidence, humiliate me, max their names under his breath and just allow it to happen. Because they were fearful of their own livelihoods, which I realized now they had powerhouses and they were really fearful that they would be the next target. So that led me then into my research to look at some of the archetypes of a bystander and really counteract about people that are really change makers, that stand up for what they believe in. And I guess it stemmed from a conversation where people said to me, so how did you heal your life? And how did you become a change maker? And, like, what skills, tools and characteristics do you have that really empower you to now be an advocate or an activist against bullying, harassment? Now, what really drives you to speak up against it? So when I started to look at the bystanders, which I strongly believe, like in any dynamic environment, work, life, school, there will always be, unfortunately, bullies, nasty people, perpetrators and targets, pretty similar to domestic violence. There's always going to be people that inflict pain on others. What we really do have, I believe there's power in the message here, or what I say, power in the people that we need to educate people on how to be upstanders rather than bystanders. So if we look at some stats, almost half of Australians will get bullied at least once in their working career. So bullying is everyone's problem. If it's not you or you haven't already been bullied, it's your wife, your husband, your son, your daughter, your neighbour, your best friend. Almost half. That's almost half the population. So this needs to be brought into a conversation and rather than wait for it to be reactive, someone's in a hospital bed, they're emotionally psychologically damaged, they've got ptsd, they can never return to the workplace because they're so traumatised, which I see day in, day out, how about we focus on the proactive space and build up standards at all levels of the organization, not just people with the title of leadership or sitting in the C suite, but Jessica or Julie or Tom, whoever is, is in the organization and has got a toolkit to understand that if something is toxic or has potential to cause emotional, psychological or physical harm, that they actually have a process that they know that they can be empowered at standards. Maybe it's, you know, observing, listening, speaking up, being an empathetic. Yeah, yeah. To other people. And really, really is the power and what I call this is the episander effect. And I just think that we need to be more proactive in this space. So if we look at the bystander effect, this is a research, psychological phenomenon which really has looked at a young lady called Kitty Genovese. It was in. It was a long time ago, but what they realized was they were this young girl that got murdered unfortunately and attacked on her way home from work in New York City. And when the police actually investigated this, there was a lot of people that were bystanders. They said they heard her screams, one even shouted out, but no one actually stopped it and intervened because it assumed that, oh, there was a lot of people at home that day, it was someone else's problem, an issue. So I think that when I actually found out what the bystander effect and really tapped into that, I thought maybe this is what's happening in organisations and particularly in my case where so many people. And I've had conversations with a lot of my colleagues after they said, well, I knew that that manager was present or that person who is more vocal than me, and I assumed that they would stop it or report it. So what happens is, and we can compare this to car accidents as an example. If you're driving and someone has broken down or had an accident and there's a big group of people, we tend as humans to think, oh, it's catered for, and we drive on by. But if there's a major accident and you're the first or second on the scene, you're more inclined to stop. So that made me question, okay, so what are we witnessing in everyday life? Whether it's racism, inequality, homelessness, particularly in what's happening in the world right now that we disassociate from, not because we're bad people, but we assume someone else was deal with that. So I want to counteract the bystander effect, really, with the upstander effect and start to focus on the positives rather than waiting for emotional and psychological and physical harm to happen to an individual. So again, it's really looking at the characteristics of change makers and upstanders and saying, okay, so how can I challenge my own unconscious bias, my own social norms, or what has been programmed to me from childhood really start to be an upper standard in my life to create change and support people who need it?

I love that. I love it because, you know, just reflecting on my career, there's absolutely circumstances where I knew that something was happening, but the fear of standing up and saying something because it was someone in the hierarchy was certainly there. So I know that that's still prevalent today for sure. Like you say, it's just incredible that this is all still happening in the 21st century with the education that we have.

I know, and I think what you've said there is really relevant because people assume that they need to challenge the bully or challenge the toxic leader. And then they could be, you know, on the ticket, on the one way seat out to the business, as they used to say in there, yes, who's got the front seat and the bus on the way out? But for me, like a powerful upstanding move was, even when one of my colleagues acknowledged to me quietly, look, I know what's happening, it isn't right, it's not you. And for me, I think that was a fundamental change in my mindset and a relief that was lifted when I realized, oh my gosh, this was never about me. And because I was made to believe that I was going crazy because, you know, it's me, me, me, when someone acknowledged that, hey, I've seen what's happening. If you ever needed to chat, this is my number, or, you know, let's go for a coffee. Because people were fearful to talk to me, because he had targeted me so much that people were actually. Yeah. So I guess that was a turning point where a simple conversation can save a life. And if we look at like some of the people that particularly came to me that were telling me that maybe they were suicidal or at the brink of harm, I guess that knowing that someone is an upstander that has your back and says, hey, I don't know what to do, but here's a number for a mental health lineup. And this is beyond Blue's number. This is the workplace policy and procedures. And I think these things have been breached. Hey, maybe you should check out the intranet. There's a whistleblowing policy. I hate the word whistleblowing. Because it's such a negative connotation. But again, in my mind, this is the upstanding policy, this is the organization commitment to support you if you see something that isn't right. So I think that there is small fundamental steps that I teach in my program to empower people and even to be consciously empathetic and an active listener like that could be so fundamental for helping your colleague, whether they're going through domestic violence or bullying or whatever it may be that can actually signpost them to get the support they need. Because I can tell you now, it's such a lonely space that when people are going through workplace bullying and you believe your livelihood and future is compromised. And I always talk about domestic violence because the links and the psychological effects are so closely linked. And if we mention domestic violence, rightly so, we get emotionally charged. We know the process to call the police, we know help lines or support groups that can actually intervene when we talk about workplace bullying. And particularly in my case, it was Toughen up Princess. This is the construction industry. If you can't take the heat, get out. And I just think that organisations do not take workplace bullying or harassment or calm or whatever discrimination as serious as maybe the physical harm that is associated with domestic violence. But the internal scars may be invisible, but they're so painful that they last a lifetime.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's so powerful and I love that you're sharing those techniques that are not necessarily confronting for people to enable them to help the person that they're witnessing this happening to. So, yeah, that's fantastic. So do you have any advice.

For.

People who are trying to be an upstander against someone in the hierarchy? So it might be upstander to. I shouldn't say against an upstander to what's happening by their direct leader. Or it could be someone even higher up where, yeah, as you say, there's that fear that they're going to put it be put in on the front seat of the bus heading out the door.

Yeah. So my easiest and quickest advice would be to check out my book, the Breaking the Silence on Bullying. And I've made that an interactive book that you can actually work through activities that help you sign course, where to get help in organizational policies to everything, the last two chapters, and one of them is be a change maker. So that's got like fundamental steps of where you can get action, advice and support. But I guess the biggest thing that I would say initially is awareness. When you actually raise awareness that something isn't right, I Guess that then drives you into finding some support and help. So people are often not even aware of the EAP number. So the employee assistance program number that all organisations have relationships with, well, certainly small to medium to large organisations anyway. So when I talk about EAP people are going, what is that? So it's a helpline where you can get confidential advice and support on what is happening within the organization. So and again, my buliology website, I've got a whole list of resources, actions and helplines such as Fair Work. If you've reported the bullying internally and it isn't happening or subsiding, there is a process where Fair Work, you can make a soft bullying request and they can support and intervene you. There also meant a lot of support groups and for me it was really helpful because I wasn't getting anywhere internal. And again I'm very aware of when you go external is such a fear because you're frightened they'll find out. But I went to Darwin Working Women's group and they provided some support and I can remember going to that group and they said oh sorry, we've got a heavy case, Lord, we can see you in eight weeks. And I begged them on the phone in tea and saying please I need help. So they arranged a 10 minute phone call and after that phone call I asked her can I just submit my statement of event of what's been going on? And it was a 10, a full page statement of all events which I class as the most serious and I submitted to her and she rang me back within two minutes and said I've read two pages, this is the worst case of bullying harassment that I've ever seen in my career. So I guess at that point it was a simple someone told me that they were an agency that could help and they provided me with fundamental steps and support in the back end to really report this. So I guess there isn't a one size fits all, particularly in large organisations because they tend to mask what is going on. But I guess finding a supportive colleague or someone in the HR department, work, health, safety maybe now we have champions within organisations, mental health support workers that can actually someone who's trusted that maybe can help you get some support you need. But often enough you will maybe need to get some external support to check out the resources on the Bodyology website where you can, there's lots of links and helplines where you can actually get the support you need.

Yeah, fantastic. And I'll share your details out with the show notes of this podcast so people can easily Click on that. So that's awesome. So have you seen shifts in this space now that we've got more people working from home? Have the incidents of bullying increased or has it decreased? Is it easier for people to bully others when they're not with them?

Yeah. So I've definitely seen a rise in the anxiety, the stress, the loneliness and the disengagement from teen. So something. I just actually wrote an article with this that I'll send you that you can share in the show notes. It's really highlighted working from home, bullying and the rise of. So people are now feeling like they. If I think about what the work I do with the leadership team and some of the questions they're asked me is like, how do I know that my team are empowered, that they're working and they're working their set hours, that they're. And they're trying to micromanage. Okay. Which has been perceived in such a toxic way because. And my initial response is, you need to have trust. The foundation of any organization is built on trust. We aren't working in normal circumstances. Maybe they can't work until 9 to 5 because they're homeschooling or they've got the kids or the neighbours. I don't know, kids are screaming or whatever it may be. You need to trust that maybe they aren't hitting their capabilities or has many sales calls or however that looks in your organisation, but you need to trust and understand what they're capable of and empower them to be. To take control of their life and just trust. And that's been really hard for managers. So when I'm then talking to the teams and running webinars and workshops for the team and the common thing is that I'm interpreting emails in a way that my manager has said this and this is how I feel that this is addressed. So again, missing the human element, the body language, the informal communication, the coffee room chats and assuming that a colleague who's probably highly stressed because they're now trying to adapt their new norm are being blunt, aggressive, passive aggressors, however they may look do in emails. So where we would have usually popped over to our colleague's desk and say, hey, can you do this for me? And like I had a laugh and a joke that when that is being directed, people are feeling overwhelmed, anxious. Covid has been happening. So we're all, you know, we're all disengaged. So definitely. So is the question that there's more bullying or more people feeling isolated, that things feel like they're more intense and if you can think about someone that suffers bullying anyway now being disengaged and segmented away from their team, they now feel more isolated, lonely and the fear how they will return to the workplace and if they will still have a job, that's added extra pressure. So I think that, and I think I read yesterday that by September we're going to have a real epidemic with mental health. And again, people are used to self managing now, so they know that they can be highly confident working from home, they can self manage, they don't need to be micromanaged, they don't need to commute, they can save two hours a day or however that looks. Then all of a sudden they're being forced back to their desk where they now probably feel chained to the desk, micromanaged. So I'm really staying ahead of how we integrate, integrate back into the workplace and how that causes dis ease between teams where they're used to being working in their little bubble now and they've got to accommodate their colleagues who they don't particularly like, who are opinionated or introverts, extroverts. And all of a sudden we're bringing a team of people together. They need to actually relearn or unlearn what they've learned.

Yeah, absolutely. There is a lot of anxiety around what the future means and what people are going to have to transition back to. And in doing consultations for some of my clients with their team about the team's thoughts about coming back to work and you know, are they missing the work environment? There was a very, very small percentage of people that were keen to get back into the office five days a week. Yeah, a lot of people are really comfortable and feel that they're a lot more productive in working from home. So I know a lot's been written about that the workplace is going to change, but it's changed already. So people really need to get their head around that and challenge, as you said, their unconscious in this space as well. So to avoid any future potential bullying to get people back to work.

Yeah, massively. And I think it's a really a call for leader as well to. If we look at people typically look who are in C suite positions typically, like, this is not an assumption, this is what I've seen. Like some of the clients I work with are typically, you know, males, gray hair, they've got this isn't the way we do it, this isn't the way. And I've been kind of working with them in a coaching capacity to say, like, hey, how about we unlearn? Because in 2030, 70% of the workforce will be millennials. And this is the norm that they know now. So how can we actually rewrite our leadership stories and say, well, unfortunately, this isn't how it's always been done. How many pivots have you had to do in your 40 years in business or 30 years in business, however that may be, and write a new leadership story? And they're like, ah, this isn't how I mapped out my business plan for the next three years. And I'm like, well, we didn't really map out a pandemic, unfortunately, we're heading towards or in the fourth, is it the fourth industrial revolution, which is the technology revolution. So you have a chance to shine if you choose to lead, lead through it, rather than try to micromanage and create a hostile environment.

And that's a great way of looking at like, leaders really do have such an opportunity to make a difference now in a very new world. And how they treat their people is absolutely key to that and the reputation that they build for themselves. So I'm absolutely on the same page with you there.

I think someone said to me at the beginning of the pandemic and it really resonated with me and what I've been sharing with my clients is how after this pandemic is long over, people will remember how you made them feel. So how are you going to show up as a leader? We're all highly strung, we're all highly stressed. But if you were making people feel a certain way when they're at their most vulnerable, you will be remembered. So now choose your legacy and your words and your actions and how you lead very consciously and carefully because it'll be your legacy going forward.

Yeah.

So I think that's an important message and that how I've been trying to do business as well, where people are, have maybe been in a financial position as a speaker and a keynote pretty similar to yourself or face to face gigs got cancelled for the rest of the year and people were asking me to do a lot of different things and I thought, right, okay, if I can focus on service now, yes, they've got to pay ourselves, but like people will remember me for the action and support I've given them, particularly my one on one exec coaching clients who maybe have gone through the redundancies or being pivoted or reduced salary, whatever, and I've gone, right, okay, so how can we work together in a plan? And they will remember me for how I've supported them. So I think we all need to lead a bit more with the heart over the head. Yep.

Because we're all human.

All human, yeah.

Well, it's been wonderful chatting with you, Jessica, and this is such a big topic and I could honestly speak to you for hours on this, but I'd love to know what is the final piece of advice that you would like to leave our listeners with today?

Yeah. So I think that my, my big thing that I'm pushing at the moment is really look at your own behaviours and actions and empower yourself to be an upstander and really look at your own leadership and it doesn't have to be a tight off and really see how you can be a change maker in your personal and business success and how you can impact someone's life today by just having a courageous conversation, being vulnerable and being authentic.

I love it. Thank you, Jessica. And as I said before, I will share your details out with the show notes so people can get in contact with you, access the resources and also buy your book and book you in for workshops. Great to know that you're doing them virtually. I really appreciate your generosity with everything that you've shared today and also sharing your story for the benefit of others. So thank you so much for being part of making it count, which is something that you absolutely do.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for listening and I hope that you have gained some great ideas and feel inspired to get out there and make what you do count for your leadership, your business and your life. Please do leave a review for this podcast and please share it with your network. Send any feedback or suggestions for future guests by emailing me julieuliehide.com for now, let's get out there and make it count.