Being Unmessable With - Joe Apfelbaum Interviews Josselyn Herman-Saccio

Thought Leader Interview. My name is Joe Apfelbaum, CEO of Ajax Union and founder of Evvii AI, and I have the privilege and the honor to bring on a master coach, an incredible human being, a person who's a change agent who changed so many lives and changed my life, who really impacts people very, very deeply. Jocelyn, welcome. Uh, I, I have so much gratitude towards you for everything that you've taught me and Everything that I've learned through the programs that you have been facilitating over the many, many years. So thank you for being here.

Well, I appreciate everything you're teaching me now that I'm venturing into this whole world of digital everything. So thank you for that acknowledgement. I appreciate our partnership, our friendship.

Yeah. So one of the things that I had the privilege of doing is actually being on your podcast and a podcast that you recently launched that's really taking off that people are finding super helpful. Can you tell us a little bit about your podcast and your mission and what you're trying to do in the world?

Absolutely. So my mission is to empower people to live their dreams now, not someday, and develop what I call the muscle of being unmessable with no matter what life throws at them. So I coach people, I do masterminds, I have, you know, coaches training, group coaching, one-on-one. But what I want to do is reach more people. Because there's only so many hours in a day, right? Right. So I created this podcast, which is all about people who dealt with difficult circumstances and didn't go down the count, didn't allow it to be messed with, but actually transcended those circumstances and emerged what I call unmessable. So I have had a ball. Interviewing amazing people like you, like Robin Rivers from the Howard Stern Show, like Kelly Giddish from Law and Order, like Terry Cole, who's one of my dearest friends for 30 years, and she's known as the Boundary Boss. So it's a real opportunity for me to provide weekly free content, tips, tools, and strategies for people to live the life of their dreams.

So the concept of being unmessable with, that's something I believe that you coined, right? It's something that you kind of came up with. Where did this word come up with? Like, what happened to you that made you mess with the messable, the unmessable word?

Well, actually, it's interesting. I was just telling everybody about this because one of my mentors about 25 years ago was on a call with me and a bunch of other people, and he said something like, Oh, you're so messable with. To somebody else. Not to me, but to somebody else. And I heard that word and I thought, unmessable with is what I want to not only be, but empower other people to be. And it doesn't mean being tough. And it doesn't mean like not feeling your feelings or something. What it means, and I can say what it means since I created it, is Being able to shift from reaction to creation and have your action be fulfilling your vision, your dream, rather than being in a dance with whatever life is coming at you with and you having to react to circumstances. So it's that basic magic.

And so many people have a hard time with not reacting. Like, it's almost impossible, as you said, So beautifully. We're basically like on a railroad and the tracks are set in front of us and we're just moving fast. We're moving fast. We have momentum and we are just coming at it. And the more things change— I remember you saying the more things change, the more they stay the same. And like, people are just going off on their life. So what is it that needs to happen in order for someone to experience this concept of unmessable with? I know that I've had many challenges since I've had your training in my life. And although I— the challenges were like, you know, the most difficult challenges that anybody can face, like divorce, like losing partners, like death, like COVID, like losing business. Like there's a lot of things, getting sued, a lot of different things happened to me over the course of the past several years. But because I have the training and the education and the mindset and the beliefs, And the ability to access the, the concepts that you've taught me, I'm able to transcend. I'm able to stay standing even though there's— it's a hurricane. It's like a 7 hurricane or whatever flying all around me and there's tons of chaos. I'm able to still keep taking the daily actions, keep moving forward, keep being grateful, keep focusing on the things that are more important. What do you think it is if you had to put it into a nutshell? What would you say it is for people to understand?

Well, first of all, I would say that most effective people are very good at reacting, and it's not like a bad thing. They're able to put out fires and deal with breakdowns in their businesses or their family. So 99.9% of everybody's life is spent in the world of reaction. And most people never really even get interested in shifting from that world. They just work on being better reactors. So the muscle that's required to be able to stay in the world of creation and not get sucked into that world of reaction, even if you're effective in that world, It's no magic. So when you have power with your word, with what you've created as your vision, as your dream, then you have power to take actions from that space because your vision pulls your actions rather than your actions being driven by the circumstance.

So your vision pulls your action. Can you give us an example how in your life your vision pulled your action versus the difference? Is there like an example that you have with for yourself?

So many examples. I mean, I can give the example of my father-in-law where I used to react to him all the time and most people call him Little Napoleon. He was pretty rough. And when I first met him, I had this vision of having this great relationship with my in-laws. But everything he said hooked me. I was completely messed up with it. And even when he would talk about my kids, I would get reactivated. So it took me a long time to actually create a vision. As distinct from my reaction to him, because to me, he was a jerk. And I was reacting to the jerk.

Okay, okay, okay. So I get what you're saying. The color that you light, the color that you light the people in your life will create that. And that is not helping you be in the vision of creation. You are being controlled by the light that you're shining onto the world. And the light that you're shining is a reactionary light. It's not a creation light.

Exactly.

And so you teach people the systems, the processes, and the methods, and the education, and the mindset, and the beliefs that someone needs to take in order for them to be able to create that shift so that they can have better relationships, so that they can make more money, so that they can feel more confident, so that they can have better health. Because it really ties into the mind. It ties into all the different things in your life. It's not just about, you know, a lot of people come to you, hey, I need some coaching for my business, but it's never just about the business, is it?

No, no. It leads to how you do one thing, how you do everything. So a lot of my coaching, like my mastermind with entrepreneurs who wanna double their business, half my coaching calls with them are about their marriage or their relationship, their kids, or how they relate their exercise routine. Because it's your whole life that you're reacting to it. So the quicker you can catch those reactions, those stressful moments, and shift over to the space of creation, the quicker you'll move from getting through life to actually creating and fulfilling our vision in life.

This is one of the most impactful things that you can teach a human being. And it's such a shame that a lot of parents don't even have this technology to teach their own kids. I once asked a therapist. I went to a marriage therapist a long time ago while I was still married.

Yeah, I was gonna say that must have been when we were married. They don't take people who are married.

No, you don't even need them anymore. Like, what do you need a therapist for? You're fine. You're not married. Anyway, so I went to a therapist and I said, where do you— he was teaching me about anger, how it's a secondary emotion and how you're reacting and how you have to learn how to control your anger and blah blah blah. And that if you control your anxiety and you learn, you lean into it, you're not going to get to anger because you'll be able to Breathe into your anxiety and it won't turn into anger. It won't turn into the secondary emotions. And I was like, for me, that was just mind-blowing. I was like, oh my God, I wasn't even aware that I was angry. I wasn't even aware that I was having a secondary emotion due to almost like a domino effect. And I was like, where do you learn this? Where do you learn this? And you know what he said? He's like, you'll either learn it at home from your parents or you get a therapist or a coach. Now, what's the difference, would you say, between— I know that you're a proponent of therapy if somebody really needs it. But what do you think is the difference between someone hiring a coach and someone hiring a therapist and going to therapy?

Well, I think it's about— I think your microphone—

I think your microphone might be away from your mouth.

I tried to take it off. It's echoing. It's echoing.

Oh, is it echoing? Okay, let me stop it from echoing. Okay, now you shouldn't be getting the echo anymore.

Oh, okay, great. There you go. I was like, I can't help them. The notes and the messages were that I was echoing. So anyway, people are—

people are saying that you're echoing. Okay, now, guys, is she echoing now? Is she not echoing anymore? Okay, good.

Okay, good. So no more echo. Perfect.

Okay, so start over.

Let's start. I know I was talking slow so that it was, you know, the echo wouldn't— because I heard the echo too. But that's Fine. Now I think, uh, we're good to go. Um, better. Lucy says better. Okay, good. So the diff— one of the differences is that, you know, therapy focuses on the past and dealing with whatever happened in the past in a way so that you cannot be disempowered by it, right? And I am a big proponent of therapy if that's what you're dealing with. What coaching deals with, at least the kind of coaching that I do, which is transformative coaching, It deals with your vision for the future and then what's in the way. So what I work on is disappearing the obstacles or the things that mess with you. And it doesn't matter how successful you are, something messes with you. Many things mess with you. You know, it could be self-doubt, it could be negative conversations, it could be fear, it could be imposter syndrome, it could be money messes with lots of people, time messes with people. There's a whole myriad of things that mess with people. And what I work on is dismantling what messes with people so that they can be freed up to fulfill on their vision, which is slightly different than, than therapy. And I don't deal with feelings. I mean, it's not like I say you can't tell me how you feel, but I don't process people's feelings. I deal with their performance, their actions, or their inactions, both of which produce results.

Okay, so both actions and inactions produce results. Where do feelings come into the picture?

I find that feelings are reactions. Mostly, they're a reaction to something that happens. I mean, you know, my mother fell last night and went to the hospital. I'm, you know, thousands of miles away in another country. I had feelings about that. It was a reaction to something happening. I felt scared. I felt, you know, sad. But that's not a creation. It's not— 99.9% of the time, your feelings are reaction to someone or something. So if you want to live in the world of creation, what's really powerful about this is if you develop enough muscle in it, you can create your feelings. So you— I can create being happy. I don't have to wait for something to happen to then react in a happy way, because then you're at the whim. You're like a leaf in the wind. You know, the circumstances have to be just right for you to feel fulfilled or for you to feel happy or for you to feel loving. I can create love with anyone. I mean, don't get— you know, let's not go down in the gutter. But, you know, it's like I am married 30 years, but I create that marriage every day. Because if I were living in the world of reaction, I probably wouldn't be married anymore.

So you're saying don't take action based on feelings. Take action based on vision. That's what I'm kind of hearing.

And the feelings will follow. So if you have a vision for your well-being, right, and then you have a commitment, a word, you've made a promise to go to hot yoga 4 times a week, right? Sometimes you're not going to feel like going. But don't follow your feelings. Follow your word and your vision. And the feelings will follow. Have you ever started to work out and then started feeling like it?

Yeah, 100%. 100%. But it's really hard for people to be able to deal with the pain of doing things that feel uncomfortable. Like, you know, somebody starts exercising. I don't know about you, but the first mile is the hardest mile. If somebody starts dieting, like not eating bread, you're addicted to bread, all of a sudden you're like, You're literally almost like what some people call suffering. I know that you have a specific difference between pain and suffering, but can you talk a little bit about how to deal with that pain or how to deal with the suffering that people are afraid of or experience when they're taking action that's not based on feeling?

Well, I would look at it as anything that has ever created growth in your life was uncomfortable. There was never a time that you expanded without discomfort. So discomfort isn't something to avoid. Comfort— you're comfortable in a coffin. You know, you're going to be really comfortable when you're dead because there's nothing to, you know, combat against. There's nothing to bump up against. In life, there are things to bump up against. The question is, do you have the tools to effectively bump up against it and move beyond it? Transcend it. And that's about developing your muscles. So it really is like a muscle. It's not a panacea. It's not a magic pill. It's not like, oh, now you're unmessable with— no, no, no. I mean, things are still going to happen, like my mother falling, like my father found out he has COVID today and he's her main caregiver. And it's like, oh my God, so many things happening, right? But the question is, who are you going to be in the face of what's happening in your life? And you're not going to feel like going to the gym. And you might not feel like being married, and you might not feel like being in that job and taking the actions to fulfill that proposal or whatever. But the question is, what are you creating with your word? And when you're unmessable with the real deal, Joe, being unmessable with— and everybody— is really having your word be unmessable with so that you could say X and it happens. You say Y and it happens. It isn't like, well, hopefully. It's no, no, no, I said so, so it shall be, like abracadabra. I create as I speak.

Okay, so I have a question that's popping up in my head heavily right now with, with what you're saying. Is it more about you creating what you say, or you saying what you can create because you have integrity with your word?

It's sort of a simultaneous thing. It's, it's in ancient Aramaic and Hebrew, abracadabra literally means I create as I speak. So as you speak, you know, when you say— if somebody says, how are you? And you say, I'm okay, then in that moment, that's what you do. That's it. That's reality right then. I'm okay because you said so. And if you say I'm sad, you are, aren't you? Isn't it always how you say? So if you say my job is boring, in that instant, it is.

Is it because the only thing that exists Is that instant, or is it because your words are creating your reality? Like, you know, there's a concept called fake it till you make it. There's a concept that people don't want to lie because they, they interpret their feeling a certain way. And so when they say, I'm feeling great, and really they're feeling sad inside, or they're interpreting the feelings that they're feeling as sad, they kind of feel like there's a lack of integrity or they're lying to themselves. So like, how do you kind of— Bring all that to make sense.

Different kinds of languages. So there's 3 different uses for language. One is to describe, right? So I can describe this phone, or I can describe, you know, this pen, or you can describe what you're feeling inside. You know, you're having body sensations and then you call it nervous, but it's not nervous inside of you. It's just some sort of body sensation. So you can use language to describe something or someone. Out here or in here, right? Or you can use language to create, which is a declarative language. Like you know, I am creating doubling my business this year. That's a creation, right? Then there's a third use of language, which is called evocation—the kind of language that evokes. That's a very profound, powerful kind of speaking. Poetry is kind of like that. You know, it doesn't describe anything. It isn't really creating anything. It evokes an emotion or an experience. So that's a kind of speaking that when I work with leaders that I train them in, because it's critical to be the kind of human being who can evoke vision from other people if you're going to be a leader.

Okay. So there's the concept of describing, there's the concept of creating, and then there's the concept of evoking. And so when you're evoking, you're essentially waking— you're using a combination potentially of Your conscious mind, your spirituality, your feeling, your memory, your spirit, whatever it is that you're bringing into the table, maybe congruing your heart and your mind in one and just kind of driving with passion and enthusiasm. And, and that— those are the things that you're kind of teaching people to kind of be all in, as you called it, and as you taught me to be all in in life and really, really just like be fully here, be fully present, be fully real. And that's where the magic happens, not when you're just in your mind, in your feelings, in your past, in your—

Analyzing and figuring out and all of that, because that all happens in the world of reaction. The world of creation is a magical space. It's from nothing. It's, you know, it's up and out rather than down and in. You know, when you're in the world of reaction, you're dealing with things, you're looking down, you're managing. There's no magic in management.

We are often called to take action as leaders. So the question is, is the action that we're being called to take a reaction or is it based on, I want to create? So for example, an entrepreneur, 44 years old, suddenly died. Great guy, sold his business, very successful, 2 beautiful kids, beautiful marriage. Everyone's devastated. What do you— like, you don't have to do anything, but like, you feel like you're— you need to do something now, you know, maybe check your will. Like, it's a reminder. Like, how do you take that news? How do you take that information? And how do you support people in your world that maybe are suffering from reaction, suffering from fear when things like that happen? You can't take your wealth with you when you die. So like, what, you know, there are things you can't control in life. So what do you do when people around you are suffering like that?

Well, I listen to them because suffering is a function of not being related to reality. You know, if you're related to what's actually happening, suffering disappears. The only time you suffer is when you think whatever's happening shouldn't be happening. So I'll share with you just from my own life. When my brother passed away, which was, you know, in 1990, so it was a long time ago, he was 15 years older than me and he died of AIDS. And I remember, you know, I was on a bus like a few months after he died, and I was having a conversation with myself going, you know, nobody should bury a child. You know, this is horrible. I miss him so much. And this whole thing. And then I heard myself talking, and I was like, well, people bury children. So nobody should bury a child, that's not like reality. That's something I'm saying. And that was the source of my suffering—that this shouldn't have happened. He shouldn't have died so young. Da da da. And the minute I just dealt with the reality, what happened is he died. Now I I could be sad. I can I can miss him, but that doesn't mean I'm suffering. Being sad and suffering are two different things.

Doesn't it sound a little cold by just looking at the reality and not attaching? a story to it and saying it's so— like, you know, somebody tells you, oh, it's so sad that he died and he had a family and kids, and you're like, and you're like, listen, it's a story. It's a story.

I wouldn't say that to somebody. I would just say, what else do you need to say about it? Oh, I would just listen. I would just let them communicate.

You're creating a form of expression for them that allows them to be able to let the emotions move through them because they're feeling something right now based on stories that they're telling themselves. So you might say, you know, he came to this world for 44 years, he did some beautiful things here, and then his soul needed to move on, and his kids are gonna be okay with his mom, and, you know, they had a great father and a legacy and blah blah blah. Is there a problem with—

I wouldn't even say any of that though, because what that does is it adds mass to people's suffering. That's the world of reaction and reasons and justifications. In reality, people die. That happens, you know, and it's appropriate to be sad. You're sad for you, not for them. They're at peace. You're the one who's going to miss them. So it's really not about them. The sadness is more about the people who are left behind.

Is it sadness? Like, is it— is you saying you're adding mass to people's suffering when you're counteracting their feeling or when you're giving them a different perspective without—

Or trying to change their feeling?

Trying to change their—

Anything you try and change, the more it's, you know, you try and change something, the more it stays the same. Anything you resist persists. So rather than resist somebody's reaction, you allow it to be their reaction. The problem that most people have, Joe, and this is the thing that I end up coaching most people in, is they have, they have an interaction with somebody, that person reacts, then they react to the reaction. And then they're all in the town of reaction and there's no creation. It left the building because there's no space for creation. Creation requires space. And when you're reacting to how somebody's reacting— I mean, just in a relationship, you know, somebody says, well, you didn't text me today. That's a reaction. They're upset that you didn't text them today. And then you say, well, I was working all day, you know, what do you expect from me? Okay, that's a reaction to their reaction. So now you're both in reaction mode. No magic, just justifying.

Wow. Wow. That probably hits home to a lot of people. Like, if that resonates with you in the chat, whether you're watching the live or the replay, say that resonates with me, right? Resonates. Say, oh my gosh, amazing. Tons of value. Put all the stuff in the comments. We want to see your comments blowing up right now. So people have an interaction and the person reacts, and then you react to their reaction. And that's what you're coaching most people on, because people are not even aware that they're doing that. They're just coming to you with, hey, I have a terrible spouse.

Yes. Or my boss is, is arrogant or whatever it is. But they don't realize that it's their reaction that messes with them. It's never how the person is.

How do you notice? How do you notice the self-talk? Like you mentioned earlier that you You know, you, you found yourself suffering and you were on a bus and then you mentioned the word self-talk and that idea was like, it entered my head. I was like, I got to write the word self-talk, um, down because, you know, self-talk is something that a lot of people are not even aware that they're doing in their head, the little voices in their head. I read The Untethered Soul and my mind was blown. And so the question about self-talk and even noticing your self-talk, like if you're in the self-talk, you don't know the self-talk is there.

Yeah, you're in it already. Exactly. So here's what I do with people. I have them create what's called a red flag. Flags. So what's a red flag? Is a physical symptom of being messable with. So something— if you notice any time that you are being in a reaction, something's happening with you physically. Like it could be a tight chest, or it could be a red face, or, you know, you start breathing shallow, something happens physically. So I have people identify the red flag because the physical symptom Actually happens just before the self-talk, just before the— it's like literally from a neurological perspective, the symptom, it seems like it's simultaneous, but it— or it seems like the tight stomach is a reaction to the self-talk, but it really isn't.

Wow.

So if you can see the red flag, you can hack it and reroute your brain because it's all neurological. When you're in reaction mode, it's the amygdala. On a hijack mode. So you are in fight, flight, or flee, or freeze, right? So you are reacting from that part of your brain, and you need to do something to interrupt that brain pattern, to shift over to the creative space, which is the prefrontal cortex, which is where creative thought and rational thought happens, which is not where your reactive brain functions from. So if you can do something physical to interrupt the tight chest, And it has to be something that you don't normally do. So it can't just be breathing because everybody breathes. But if you do something like you go like this, or you stretch, or you do something that you design as a hack, it can get you to neutral. And then you have a shot at functioning from the world of vision and creation.

How do you know that you're in neutral?

There's nothing there. You have nothing going on. about whatever's happening. It's like nothing. It's getting you to nothing. But you don't— you can't stay there for very long because it's literally like the universe doesn't tolerate empty space. So what I coach people to do in the beginning when they're starting this methodology is to pre-create a space to go to. It's almost like you have 2 roads, right? It's like a fork in the road. Messable with is like paved with fast food restaurants and gas stations. It's much easier to go down that road. You have more muscle memory. for that road. And then there's the unmessable-with road of vision, which has like branches and rocks, and it looks like a pain in the butt to go down. So you don't want to go down that road. So if you don't pre-create a space like a vision of, you know, self-expression or passion or connection or whatever it is that you create as your vision, if you don't have that pre-created, the chances of you shifting gears are lower. So if you have it pre-created, When you get to neutral, you can then take an action that would fulfill on connection or love or self-expression or whatever it is that you've pre-created.

Would you say that most human beings don't even have a vision and they don't have that pre-created place and that's why they're stuck in reaction?

I don't know about most human beings. I think people have goals and they mistake that for vision.

Okay, tell us the difference between goals and vision right now.

Vision is more of a spatial experience. It's not a, like, a result in reality. So when I ask people, okay, well, what's your dream? What's your vision? Oftentimes I'll get goals. People say, well, I want to win an award, or I wanted to triple my business, or I want to whatever they say. And I say, okay, but if that happened, then what would be available to you as an experience in life? That's more the world of vision. And eventually we get to something like peace of mind or making a difference or, you know, contribution or connection or something that's more experiential. So goals bridge your vision to reality. Goals live in specific, measurable reality, whereas vision is more up and out, spatial, experiential.

Okay, so what, what, like, what would you say is the process of somebody starting with creating a vision versus goals? Because it's so easy to write your goals. I wanna make a million dollars. I wanna find the love of my life. I wanna lose 100 pounds. Like, that's easy to say that. But, you know, ultimately, if you want a result, you can't just focus on the result. You gotta focus on the actions that lead to the results and focus on the process. And in our goal setting masterclass, we talk a lot about that. So tell me, tell me, what are the steps that somebody needs to take? To be able to just come up with a vision that actually is inspiring?

It's pretty simple. I mean, I did a TED Talk about this. So, it's really like, it's not complex at all. You have to go out far enough. So, it's like, okay, if that happened, then what would be available? And if that happened, then what would be available? So, as an example, you know, I work with actors a lot. And I would say, okay, what's your vision? I want to win an Academy Award. Okay, well, let's say you won the Academy Award. Now, what's available to you? Well, now I can choose any role I want. Okay, let's say that that was the case, then what would be available to you? Well, I'd have freedom. Freedom is in the world of vision. Freedom is fulfillable right now. You don't have to wait till you win an Academy Award to be free. You can create freedom in your relationship. You can create it at Starbucks. You could create it with your family. So a lot of the work that I do is getting people focused on the vision, not the vehicle, because an Academy Award is a vehicle. It's not the vision. It isn't even about the Academy Award. It's about the freedom. So why not have freedom now? You don't have to wait to get cast in a movie that goes to the Academy and da da da. No, you don't have to wait till someday. You can fulfill on freedom right now.

But doesn't that take away from, you know, some people might think that, you know, feeling the feeling of already have made it, and we know a lot about manifesting and talking about manifestation and feeling the feeling is what's going to bring it closer, but What I hear the argument is from people that are unwilling to kind of do this, and I know a lot of people are just have resistance to this because they say, if I feel like I already did it, what's going to motivate me to actually take the actions to be successful? If I already feel like I'm wealthy, why would I work?

Well, wealthy, you'd have to define wealthy because this isn't like I'm a brain surgeon. That's my vision. Now I feel like a brain surgeon. That I would not advise doing that because that's crazy. Okay, this is about the experience of life, which if that's what you really want, it isn't about the Academy Award, it's about the freedom. Then you deal with, okay, what's in the way of freedom? And that's all the stuff that messes with you. The same stuff that messes with you in fulfilling on your goals messes with you in being able to experience what you really want to experience in life. So when I work with people, we get clear about the vision, but people have actual goals for sure. but the goals come from the vision rather than the other way around. So that way they're not attached to the vehicle. Like, let's say somebody wants to create a company. I had— I was working with somebody who wanted to create this product and she was going to bring it to market. And, you know, she had a vision and this whole thing and it was connected. Um, but at some point she got related to the reality of what it was going to take to start this business. And she's like, I don't know if I actually want to do this. I think I want to do this. And she pivoted. This is the power of pivoting. But you can't pivot if you're attached to the vehicle. You know, if you're attached to that girlfriend, or you're attached to that job, or if you're attached to that project, you end up imprisoned by your pictures. So this enables you to be pivotable because it's all inside of the vision. If what you're really after is freedom, there's many roads to Rome. So what road do you want to take? You're not stuck.

Inside of anything. If somebody doesn't know what they're really after, and I've, I've spoken to people that they just have no idea. They're like, I don't even know what I really want. I don't even know where I am. What do you tell those people?

Well, I find out what's in the way, because the only reason people don't have a vision is because something's clouding it. And usually what's clouding your vision is something that's incomplete from the past. So it could be a resentment, it could be a regret. It could be something physical in your space, like your desk is just a mess, so you can't even deal with looking up and out because you're so much dealing with the minutiae of the paperwork. So I have a whole completion checklist that I work with people inside of, you know, the people that I coach one-on-one or in group, so that they can begin to create some space to look up and out at what do they really want. Most people are so busy dealing with what life is throwing at them, they don't even think about what they want. You know, that's not a question people are running around engaging with for the most part, you know. But that's the first question. If they can't see it, it's because something's in the way. So that's the first thing I'd work on is getting out of the way whatever's in the way so that they can begin to create a vision.

Can you give me an example of a time in your life where you had something in the way and you were clouded and you didn't see what was in the way, and then you finally were able to remove that block?

Sure, I could give you 100 examples, but I'll give you the record deal example, right? So since I was a little kid, I loved singing. But when I was about 5, my father and I were sitting in a car, and he used to paint, and he had stopped painting. And I said to him, how come you stopped painting at 5, right? And he said, well, you can't do your art as your career. So in that moment at 5, I heard him, and it wasn't like this traumatic thing. I just said, oh, I guess you can't do your art as your career. Now, it isn't that he said it. It's that I said it to myself and it became the truth. So anything that's the truth is likely in your way, good, bad, or ugly, because truth is, you know, a function of perspective. But in any case, at 5, you don't think that. You think, okay, well, I guess I'll be a lawyer or I'll be a business person or whatever. So even though I loved singing, I sort of just put aside that dream. I was like, I'm not gonna go after that because you can't do it. And I was very successful at a young age running a company at 19. I mean, you know, I was making money. I was, you know, doing all that stuff, but I wasn't— fulfilled because that dream was like under the carpet. So then I'm in a seminar, transformative seminar, and somebody says something. I don't know what they were saying, but the— somehow this moment of being in this Chevy Impala convertible came back to me with my dad. And I said, what if that's not the truth? Like, what if you can't do your art as your career is something I decided and not The truth. And then I started to like think about it. And I thought, well, lots of people do their art as their— all of a sudden, I start seeing all the people that do their art as their career, like a bazillion people. But I couldn't see that up until that point, because there was something covering my view, this belief that you can't do your art as your career. So the minute that loosened, I was freed up to take actions. And within 3 months, I had a record deal and ended up having a number 1 record.

Wow. Wow. So there's one thing that really resonates with me. The truth is in your way. And anybody listening to this right now, write that down in the comments of this post. Write it down. Write, the truth is in your way, because that is true.

Well, be careful because then it'll get in your way. Because anytime you turn anything into a solid, immutable thing, like the truth is, it becomes immalleable. It becomes immutable. So the beauty about having language as an access to reality is it's malleable, it's shiftable, it's creatable. So you can create new realities with your language and your actions for sure. If you don't take actions, nothing's gonna happen.

Would you say that's compatible with religion that's very dogmatic and also like, you know, not flexible like that?

I mean, I think that the heart of religion is quite beautiful and profound, but I think when we turn it into an institution that it's the truth, or my religion is more true than your religion, that's not the heart of religion. I mean, I used to love studying religion. I think it's, it's, it's amazing, but we people turn it into something. They turn it into the truth.

My truth against your truth creates lies.

Beautiful. Yeah, well said. But look at any war we've ever had is, is about, you know, my reality is more real than yours.

Instead of seeing each other's realities and co-creating and creating a beautiful life, a beautiful vision where things can co-create, 2 separate realities can come together and create, you know, the different perspectives that—

Well, again, it's the vision, not the vehicle. I mean, there's nobody I've ever talked to that wouldn't love to have peace. It's just they get caught up in being right about their truth. And then they have war with their ex-husband and they have war with their mother-in-law and they have war with the country next to them.

So it's very profound to even think about the concept of your vision doesn't have to be the truth. Like, think about that for a second. Your truth is in the way of the vision. So if you want the vision to be the truth, then you're basically just blocking yourself from accessing the vision. Because you're so hung up on like, oh, it's a lie. I don't have the money. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all the truth, all the truth, all the things that you're trying to prove to be right is the reason why you're fat, broke, and don't have a relationship. And miserable.

Exactly. It's like that. That's pretty cool. I think I should write a whole course about what you just said.

Well, I know it's just like you just basically brought it out. But the idea is like, The truth is in your way, ladies and gentlemen, and you don't— you can't have access to a vision when you have the truth in front of you and you're trying to deal with the truth. And the truth is the stuff that makes you messable with. So if you want to be unmessable with, stop trying to prove yourself right. I remember I had a coach once that said you could read right or you could be happy.

I think that was me. I think that was me who said that. Well, but that's the problem, you know. You win the games you're playing, and if you're in the game of being right, you'll win. You'll be dead right, and keyword dead, because your relationships will have no life to them. I gave up the right to be right with my mother 25 years ago. I, I don't— that— I'm not going to play that game. What is the point of that game? My husband and I have been together 30 years. We've had 5 fights.

Wow. Wow. I saw a video online that said— if a guy said, if, if she's wrong And I'm right, she's right.

Happy wife, happy life, right?

Exactly. Uh, if we're both wrong, I'm right. You know, I'm wrong. You know, like, that's, that's the idea. So when you bring these things together and you start realizing that you need to play on a different level, you can't do that without a coach because we have blind spots. And so you're able to coach people, support people, and guide them. Can you talk more about your practice and And what you're creating. I know you're creating, um, you, you have group programs and you have one-on-one programs.

I have very limited one-on-one, very, very, very limited.

So talk to us about what you want to invite people to. If somebody is listening to this, they're a leader, they have a multimillion-dollar business, or they're a leader in their community, or they're a leader in their home, what would you like them to know about yourself and how they can get engaged with you?

Well, first of all, I would really like you to listen to the podcast, listen to an episode. And then rate and review it. I mean, first of all, you know, you're going to get value. One of my first episodes is with Joe. So, you know, if you are getting anything out of this conversation, we had an amazing conversation and we have, you know, 3 episodes that dropped last Thursday. It's just been out less than a week. We're already charting in 2 different categories, self-improvement and education. And I, you know, invite you to go listen to an episode all the way through, even on, on double time. You'll still get the value. Then if you want to engage with me further after you get that taste of me, right, you can go to my website, beunmessablewith.com, and there's a lot of free ways to interact with me. But if you want to delve deeper and actually work with me in a group coaching setting, I have one starting in September. That is a good way to begin the process with me and start learning the methodology, the Unmessable With system. If you want to jump straight to one-on-one, again, I have like one spot open. And it's really by interview and all that kind of stuff. But there's, you know, you can book us a call to, you know, talk to me and see if that's the right thing for you. And then if you're an entrepreneur who wants to double your business, I am about to open next year's Mastery Program, which is a year-long program that is limited to 20 people, and it's all high-level performers who are committed to at least doubling their business or halving their time so they have freedom. We work on mastering performance, creation, and freedom. So those are sort of the main ways to work with me, but I have lots of, of free ways and lots of recorded things that you can do, you know, just to get a taste.

That's incredible. That's incredible, guys. We're gonna link the podcast episode in the comments of this post, so make sure to hit the repost button, make sure to hit the like Leave us a comment. Write the truth in the comments because that, that is the truth.

I think the truth is in your way will be the theme of this. And I'm running a contest right now. If you do listen to an episode and rate and review it, you can enter a contest to win a one-on-one session with me or a group coaching spot for 3 months being coached by me, having me on chat for 3 months. So that's kind of, you know, it's worth like $1,800, the, uh, The group coaching thing. Yeah.

That's huge. That's huge, guys. So definitely go ahead and rate and review it. We'll put a link to the podcast, um, under this video right here. So go ahead and check it out, whether it's on YouTube, on Facebook, on LinkedIn. Go back and check out the way that you can subscribe to that podcast, listen to it, rate and review it, and so on. Jocelyn, thank you so much for being on the show. Is there any message that you want to leave people with as we're winding this down? Is there anything that you want to say to people listening to this? and in their life, that maybe they don't have all the things that they want in their life and they want to achieve more. What do you want to say to people?

It's possible to live your dreams. I am living proof of it. And it is not magic and it is not luck. It is a methodology. And you can develop yourself in that methodology. Again, on my website, when you go to it, there's like a pop-up that comes up for a 12-page workbook that gives you the steps to develop to be unmessable with. So even if you don't want to work with me, just do that. Just do that to train yourself. But you know, there's no reason for you not to fulfill your dreams.

Wow. There's no reason for you not to fulfill your dreams. So go out there, build your vision, make sure that you're taking all the right actions. What's the website that you want people to go to to find that 12-step program?

Beunmessablewith.com. Oh, that's so easy to remember.

Beunmessablewith.com. Thank you very much for being here. This was really amazing. I feel like I want to bring you back here sometime. I'd love to. Anytime.

You know, I would do anything with you.

So thank you. I appreciate you very much, and thanks for being on the show. We'll see you guys soon.