Audio Episode 14 - Eina McHugh on playing fields, creativity and meaning

Hi, I'm Joe Houghton and this is the Plus One Podcast. I've been looking forward to having one of the most inspiring educators I know, Enya McHugh, on the podcast since it started, so I'm absolutely thrilled to be talking with you today, Enya. It's great to have you on. Enya thinks differently to most people that I know. She asks wonderful, insightful questions that always make for fascinating interactions. And in the mentoring sessions I've had the pleasure of being part of, Enya's always facilitated kind of wonderful and unexpected pathways and diversions and journeys. She's the author of a book, To Call Myself Beloved, which actually is in a new reprint, so we'll talk about that a little bit later on. And that book I downloaded after I found it in your bio last night, actually. And I read the first 4 chapters last night. And it's got to be one of the most searingly honest and brave books that I've ever read. Your list of involvements in art, TV, and media around the world is impressive, to say the least. You're an Irish Fulbright Scholar. You're ex-CEO and artistic director of The Ark, which was a creative space for the children in Dublin Dublin, and I've taken Danny and April there in the past, and it's an amazing place. So, I mean, one of the things that I was thinking about this morning, actually, just an hour ago, for more than any other guest today, my brief kind of pre-podcast research on Enya has really brought home to me how little of each other we actually know, how we're all the product of so many diverse experiences. that what we present to others in the moment is just one facet of a much deeper and more complex person-being set of experiences. So we're going to kind of start in that place. We're going to start in the 2-word description I ask everybody to give me of themselves in the pre-podcast questionnaire. Enya describes herself as passionate. And compassionate. And I think that the book talks to that, and all my interactions with you so far have talked to that. So let's start there. 2 powerful words to define yourself by. Talk to that. Let's kick off with that. Yeah.

First of all, thanks so much for a beautiful introduction. And I've been really looking forward to this conversation too, because I really enjoy working with you, Joe, and you're doing something really important. So I want to say that. And so there's something of the theme that you're talking about, which is the more than— more than one person, more than one aspect at any one moment.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think there's a richness that I really identify in that. So this passionate and compassionate— I am a passionate person, a passionate woman, and one of my passions is creativity. And another is people. So this combination has always fascinated me. And compassionate is because, like a lot of people, you know, I've had life experiences that were challenging. And my own background was because of growing up in Northern Ireland, I really had firsthand experience of violence and a lot of the violence that is really verboten. People just do not talk about it.

I know. I mean—

Do not talk about the influence of it.

In your book, I mean, I've only read 4 chapters and you've been bombed 3 times already. You know, I mean, literally your house was bombed and you were in there. And it was, I mean, I can't imagine this.

Yeah. So when I was a Fulbright scholar in New York, I did an interview in New York and it was the first time that maybe I heard myself link things in a way that I hadn't. So because the person said to me, well, why, where does your passion for creativity come from? And I found myself saying something about the yes and the no of life. So something about that I had experienced what I felt was a real no of violence and of, you know, sort of a societal disruption.

Yes.

And all the repercussions of that, and I experienced that as a really profound no. And at the same time, what has always given me life and great love is creativity and the kind of joy of that, the sensation of being alive, and then connecting that with other people. That actually I'm really interested in other people.

Yeah.

And I may be interested in other people's creativity because I, I know for myself that if you can kind of come into relationship with your own creativity, not as a mechanistic thing— I'm not talking about techniques and exercises and all of that, they can be helpful, But what I'm talking about is a much deeper sense of I am creative and I am alive and I am alive in my creativity. Now that is a totally different ball game and when you come into relationship with that you are flowing in life in a very different way. So that— it was my year in New York which was in 2012, 2013 That really where I began to really go in a more different direction towards education. And I really believe in these kinds of spaces. I think I fully support the Irish Fulbright Scholarship because I think it gives people a chance to think and dream and grow in the same way as you are an Innovation Fellow at UCD at the Innovation Academy at the moment. Brilliant that you're doing the podcast. Brilliant that you're giving yourself and have been given the backing of time for your passion.

It's amazing. I mean, I feel like a kid in a sweet shop, you know. I get to talk to all these amazing people, you included, and, you know, create something, create something that will persist. And if the book actually gets written as well, which I'm gonna try and do this summer, Yeah, it will be, it'll be something.

Of course, because you, you've made this happen, and there's something of the synchronicity of the Rs. I'm very interested in people who want to make things happen, the R that's in it, you know, shifts and changes. And actually, are we agents as well of change? And can we use our— can we tap into our creativity is maybe a better way of saying that. to actually serve change. And I think—

As educators, are we not by definition agents of change? Because isn't our fundamental role to help those who we are educating or helping to educate themselves make changes, make changes in themselves, make changes in the world around them, make changes for those that they are going to educate? I mean, that's what we're doing, isn't it?

Well, I think it's a really good question because I think that you can— it might be in the job description of an educator to be a change agent. Yes. But I think that my experience can be that actually there's a— there's another very important element, which is my own will. And actually what can happen often is in big systems— and let's talk about, you know, education is a big system, you know, in the same way as I'm working with people in the HSE at the minute, the Defence Forces, the Guards— these are big systems.

Yes.

And it is very easy for people after a period of time to lose sight and connection with your own individual will. And by that, I— that is a kind of a sort of a concept that you can understand at different levels, but there's something about that fundamental experience of myself that I can actually be an agent of change. And actually, for many people, that ebbs away.

You're right.

And it becomes the lived experience of being in the system can be tough, and that therefore it's sometimes people kind of unknowingly, of course, retreat. And that's, of course, the most dangerous thing. You don't actually know that you're doing this.

Yeah.

You—

so you end up in New York as a Fulbright scholar. And you say that's where you kind of discover education as your passion.

Yes.

So take us from kind of school days to that point. What was your journey there? And then what was the road to Damascus moment? What was the Yeah, what was the kind of light bulb that—

So I have— I've had different sort of phases of life, I would say. So I was brought up in Northern Ireland, this very disrupted, particularly teenage life. I went to Trinity College at 18, and I wanted to escape the North, and I did English and French there, which— and I really enjoyed that experience of college life and Dublin. And then I started my sort of first cycle of life, which was very connected, I suppose, to media and communications. At the time, TG Cacher were about to open and there was a training course, a 6-month intensive training course, and I did it and I discovered that I had a kind of a flair for media work. And so I started my first sort of lot of media phase. I worked with the BBC, I was working a lot of training work, In Northern Ireland, there was an attempt to start the Northern Ireland Film Council. They had money enough for one person, that was me. So I was then trying to help a dream come to life.

And when you say media work, I mean, that encompasses like a pretty wide variety of things, doesn't it? So I mean, what would you, you know, when you were doing that, when you were doing that Film Council work, for instance, what were you doing? Yeah.

Well, the Film Council, what you're doing is, I suppose, doing 2 things. You are working with people on a dream, it doesn't exist. People have a dream of a film industry, which seems a crazy idea in the, you know, in the '80s, '90s, when there's a, you know, Northern Ireland is not exactly settled, but people have a dream, and so you're serving a dream, and at the same time, you are trying to make that dream happen, and you're bringing yourself to it. So I was directing, they decided that they would launch a children's film festival called Cinemagic. It was the first time that there was anyone in the world. People decided, right, let's do something that's going to be unique and distinctive. I became the director, and my— so my creativity was in shaping the whole program, inviting people, you know, linking people, and then you're starting to make things move. You're looking at film training, film exhibition, working with cinemas, and so you're trying to work in a holistic way to make things happen, and a part of that is the courage to try and the courage to experiment because it doesn't exist.

Mm-hmm.

And a kind of a really, you know, a good example of, you know, this was kind of like we were small, we were trying to get something off the ground, and I invited Ralph Fiennes, who had just won the Oscar for The English Patient, to come to Belfast and to give a workshop for children. He came.

Oh my goodness.

And I mean, I had just passed my driving test. I— we had no money, so I had to pick him up from the airport. I was so worried about killing him that I kind of— that took over everything else. But it was that kind of fascinating thing. And I mean, he didn't have to do it. I think his fee was a bottle of whiskey. I mean, he did all of this that hadn't served nothing for him. And on the way out back to the airport, I said to him, well, why did you say yes? And he said to me, well, you're the only person who's ever asked me, so you must have thought I could do it. That was one of my first examples of kind of like, if you call out something in people, if you believe in people, and also sometimes just ship up, just try it.

Yeah, just ask.

Just ask. And that people could be flattered, you know, so that was a good example of, you know, you're using this kind of intelligence to, and you have to be able to operate at different levels. So in other words, I've always been managerial, that kind of CEO side of me, money, entrepreneurial, getting the business going, you know, so I mean, it is absolutely amazing to me that I look at Northern Ireland, what is now Northern Ireland Film Screen, I look at Game of Thrones, I look at Derry Girls, geez, you know, like if there hadn't been that one person sitting in that office, in the, you know, in that hour where people said, you are crazy.

Yeah.

So I mean, that is just— I always worked on projects that did not exist, they had to be made exist. So this is where I became very interested in, you know, this kind of the terrain of Yes. Individual dreams, work dreams, organizational change. It doesn't yet exist. Can we make it exist?

But you connect.

Yes.

With the reality, and you've got that inner ability, strength, confidence, drive to do that. You know, there's one thing that everybody has ideas, everybody has dreams. So few people actually make anything happen, don't they? And you're obviously a maker and a doer as well as a facilitator of others making and doing, and that's a wonderful combination, isn't it?

I am, and I am totally flawed and human. I'm very interested in self-sabotage. I am very interested in the frozen moments where seemingly we can do nothing. And, you know, and I think that's very important in education. But I'll just— I'll come back to that in a minute. But just so my sort of media land world, then I got an invitation to direct a big summit in London on television for children, which was hosted by the BBC and Channel 4. I knew I would never have that kind of offer again.

Yeah.

It was going to be a kind of international experiences 5 advisory boards, an Africa board, a Europe board, working every month in the European Union, getting a budget line in Brussels. You know, you just don't get that kind of experience.

Yeah.

I was young and I, I wanted it. So I moved to London thinking it was going to be 2 years. I spent 8 years in London. I ran a consultancy company and that gave me a lot of experience. And then I worked with the Welsh broadcaster S4C, wanted to open an office in London, and that gave me the commercial experience which I think is very useful, you know, commercial projects, commercial broadcasting. And the CEO then seconded me to work with him on a creative thinking project. He saw something in me. At the time, I was doing a master's in psychology called psychosynthesis that had really interested me.

Yes.

And I was doing my thesis on creativity and I was looking at how to unlock creativity, particularly in the arts and in the media. So Hugh, the CEO of S4C, said, come work with me. So that gave me a very interesting opportunity to work with, you know, change in a big business. After that then was my Dublin years. I was 10 years as the director of the ARC, the Culture Centre for Children.

And that's a big change to go from media and TV and films and the glitz and the glamour and stuff to a physical space.

Yes, my parents were ill, and this is for many people the silent river. And actually my father had been diagnosed with very severe Alzheimer's. and was in a nursing home and my mother was poorly, so it was one of those moments where I felt, come home.

Yes.

And I did come home and so the arc— you're absolutely correct, Joe, that was a very different career step for me. I had never run a venue, you know, and that kind of responsibility of a building and then, you know, as artistic director, you talk about confidence, you really have to step into you know, you're commissioning a lot of work across a lot of genres— craft, music, film, uh, you know, theater. We had a theater. We had the luxury of a theater.

I know, we've been, we've been.

Oh, so beautiful.

And to amazing experiences. And I mean, you know, that the plethora of different experiences that the Ark offers.

That's right. And I was very keen on that. I mean, we had fantastic team, but I was very, very keen that, you know, for children, that they would have, you know, visual art, music, drama— it's that holistic way of looking at the world and experiencing the world. I really, I really love that. There's no one— I don't like the narrow path.

No.

And I think that's very good for children. So I think that— so when I started, there was, you know, we didn't have funding from the Department of Education.

Okay.

And maybe this is where then my— again, I'd always been interested in education, but I was thinking about it this morning. I had a very seminal moment where in the ARC where I decided, right, I am going to try and do something around professional opportunities for trainers and for teachers. And so in essence what happened was we did a project, we were doing a modern art project, we were somewhere were, you know, where there was very little opportunities for children.

Yes.

It was a modern art show, and there was a— I happened to be visiting, there was a group of teachers and children together, and one of the artists were there, and the artist asked one of the children what was their favourite painting, and one of the children said, and they pointed to what was probably the most sophisticated modern art piece in the show, he said, I really like that one, and he went on to say why he really liked it. And quick as a flash, and I was there, the teacher turned around and said, typical Sean, you chose the mad one. And it was like one of those stunning moments.

Yeah.

And the artists were shocked, the children were like— and it was like, wow. So I decided to stay the day because I was— I knew that everybody was upset.

Yeah.

And so I talked with this teacher and I just sat and we spent the day together and we just sat because it was a whole day experience and we sat together and this teacher told me how much he hated and felt bad about creativity and he said, I know I'm blocking it for the children. And I thought that was incredibly brave and honest of him to say that.

Yeah.

It was so brilliant because he was saying, he was telling me something that was real and true.

Yeah.

For him and for other people too. And he said, you know what, I do the least possible. And he said, if we once a term take out pen and art, he said, I hate the chaos, I hate the fact that the whole classroom is upset, I hate all of that.

Yes.

He said, I know I'm doing wrong by the children.

Wow.

I mean, I just came back to the office and I was like, that's it. my will, I'm going to do something. So we started an initiative in New York called The Creative Self, which eventually then got funded and accredited by the Department of Education. And the idea was to completely give opportunities for teachers, primary teachers, to explore their own creativity. Forget about having to do things for other people.

Just your—

Your creativity Because of course what he was saying was, I feel horrible about this. I don't feel happy and easy about it. And it was such a stunning moment. He really changed me.

So how could he teach it? How could he facilitate the children because he was scared and he was uncomfortable himself? Yeah.

But what he was also acknowledging, which was very interesting, was I'm a gatekeeper.

Yeah.

I am closing the gate with my attitude and my behaviour on opportunities for all of these people, and I could do it. And I was like, yeah, wow.

That's a real revelatory moment for him and you, isn't it? But I mean, for how many teachers perhaps have one of those moments in them, and how do we bring it out? How do we help them even face it? Exactly, you kind of face the fear, isn't it? Face that you've got to turn around and you've got to face the fear and you've got to see it before it'll melt away.

Exactly, and you need encouragement. Yeah, not being judged. That whole point of psychological safe space— if this is your experience, that is completely okay. What I— where it's difficult is where you are actually then a catalyst for other people, and educators are.

Ah, that's what you are.

Yeah, you're a catalyst. Yeah, you, you're the most powerful catalysts. And that was also that moment, this man's power, that he could decide we will do the absolute minimum.

Yes, and there was no oversight and there was no encouragement. From outside, no. And I mean, this is the thing, a lot of teachers, there is a lot of autonomy, isn't there?

There's a lot of autonomy, but also, you know, he was brave, he was honest. I mean, I appreciated that conversation because I felt he was telling me something I was missing.

He was asking for help, wasn't he?

Yeah, he was. I could sit in my office all day and design these fabulous people, these fabulous things, But if teachers were sitting in their classroom feeling rotten about the whole thing, then actually, what was I doing?

Yes.

Who was going to link the dots? And so it was an attempt to link the dots. And what I realized in that moment was, forget trying to impose on teachers things that are all mechanistic about, have you ticked this box and that box? Forget it for a while even. Just try and come alongside people and give people opportunities, should they wish, to explore themselves and their creativity. And from that will come— you can, you can do it in phases, but you have to start with the individual, the personal.

You do. This is a lovely segue into a couple of questions that you suggested and I already had on my list, which tells me we got to ask them.

We are simpatico.

And I'd separated these 2 as well. So you're both a coach and a mentor, okay? But they're not the same, and you bring different things to those 2 roles and those 2 spaces. So talk about that. Because, you know, you've— I don't know whether you've always been a coach or a mentor, but you certainly are now. And you are in a number of different spaces as well. And I think that's where first I encountered you.

Yes.

And that's where my kind of ears pricked up because you're just so good at this stuff. You ask the right questions and you don't ask the normal questions. And you burst bubbles and don't— you don't let people stay comfortable.

That's true, that's true. Well, somebody like you who is— well, everybody's talented, but somebody like you, part of what you're trying to do is help people go to the next level. So it's the stretch. So I think that, you know, because a mentor in, you know, so in the innovation— UCD Innovation Academy, I would be mentoring a lot of educators people in different walks of life. So I think in that role, what I'm trying to do is bring all of my experience. I have 30 years at work, you know, that I've seen quite a few situations.

Indeed.

It doesn't, it doesn't mean that I'm not still interested in everybody else's, but I'm not naive. Yeah. So there's something— can we help people bring it together and help, you know, the mentee you know, see for themselves but be pushed a bit, I think, to the challenge, supportive challenge, you know, can we try and use the theory in practice?

Yeah.

So in other words, you know, I might have maybe read bits and, you know, know some bits, can that help at this juncture? Because a lot of time with mentees you're trying about the frame, how am I framing the situation?

You, you throw me off the pitch and way over there, which I love. I love the way you—

I know I have all my senses. You have to— you love the big pitch.

Well, I love different pitches as well.

Well, that's it, actually. It's very, very true. You're very open, you know, but there is something about the moment. Somebody like you— look at this podcast— you, you've got that what's called the bite. You know, and you're trying to work with people on their bite. Some people, it's important for them developmentally to do things at different levels. Some people have a big bite.

Right.

You know, and I once worked on a gifted and talented children consultancy many years ago. What really came across to me was how gifted and talented people, to be under-challenged is terribly stressful.

Yeah.

Actually, you're trying to assess— but you are judging, you know, kind of assessing the moment and trying to see, look, this is a developmental moment for this person. We're interested in creativity, leadership, and education. Okay, that's an innovation. Okay, let's try and all that we know, all that we see in you, in your situation now, And that's that kind of— you're coming alongside as the ally.

Yes.

I think that's very important, you know, that the person knows I'm gonna back you. It doesn't matter to me, it can go pear-shaped, that does not matter. What am I learning? What am I practicing? What am I experimenting? So that actually is a rich experience and I can develop We think that creativity, innovation, and leadership is easy. No, no, no.

Do you bring— because of all the coaches that I've had to work with, if you like, you know, the sessions that you've facilitated where both myself and when it was myself and Jen Lynch as well. I remember coming out of and in those sessions to some extent feeling pushed, feeling challenged, and feeling actually uncomfortable at times. But I was safely uncomfortable.

Yes.

It was a very strange feeling that I was held, but I was being pushed. I was being stretched. Does the— we're going to talk about the book as well at some point. Does your experience of therapy, therapeutic process, and you did your— I think you said you did your master's in—

Yes.

What was it? Psycho—

Psychosynthesis.

Which is one of the therapeutic kind of approaches that you went through as well.

Yes.

Do you think that informs your coaching and your teaching to some extent as well?

Well, I think this is a really great question. No, I think it's a really, really important question. I'm not doing therapy with anybody and I'm really clear about that, but am I informed by the Gestalt, by the whole of my life experiences? Yes, I am. Yeah, so, so I mean, I think that one of the things that I— when I was coming to this conversation this morning, I was thinking about, okay, do I want to— how do I want to come across?

Where do I want to go?

And then I pulled myself in and thought, I really want to be authentic. I am unusual.

Yes.

I am unusual. I have to accept this, you know, because I am interested in human psychology, the arts, education, you know, um, and I've always been like this. I can be across several terrains at the same time.

Yes.

And that is me. And I, you know, I, I do love things like you know, meditation and mindfulness and Zen and psychology and human change and, you know, all of these things. But am I also kind of— I do have that kind of probably, I don't know, that kind of tough edge to me. Having had a lot of— having had a lot of kind of— it's as tough as being in the media land.

Mm-hmm.

Whether that toughness comes from wherever, there's probably— yeah, I'm uncompromising at times. That's not easy for me or other people. But there's something of the kind of—

I—

that there's— so these are the 2 aspects of me, the passionate and the compassionate. And they, you know, I have to live with them. But yeah, I am— I've had to come to accept I am unusual. Yeah.

So I mean, you mentioned Zen there. One of your books was Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind.

Yeah.

And the other one, I think, is No Rules Rules Netflix. But let's talk about Zen to start with. So, I mean, what's— why that book? I mean, of all the books in the library, what—

Beside me here this morning. I mean, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is a classic book for the value of the beginner's mind. And we talk about this in the Innovation Academy. When you read this book, yeah, it's the real depth of that, the beginner's mind, and what that is like, why that is valuable. And something about it gets the right frame. Here we go back again, that actually if you Get the frame of the beginner's mind.

And tell me what the beginner's mind is. Tell the audience who've never heard of Zen or beginner's mind what you mean.

Well, I suppose it's that you're not coming with— well, I am still learning. I'm ever learning.

We all are, yeah.

Yeah, it's that you're not coming with— that you genuinely got that open mind in the moment.

All right, okay.

So you're completely present. You're not thinking, And they talk of this very classic Zen thing that you're— a lot of people are eating but they're not tasting. And I think that's very true of current contemporary life.

Isn't it? That I remember when we did the diploma, there was a session, I think it was a mindfulness session actually, and we had to eat a raisin.

Yes.

And that was very powerful. I mean, it was so simple, but we had to eat this raisin and we had to, you know, taste it and we had to savor it. We had to appreciate the flavours and the textures and how it tastes on our tongue and on our lips, and we had to hold it on our lips before we even put it in our mouth. And that deconstruction of this tiny little simple thing of eating a rose, that just flies by, doesn't it?

Yes.

And yet if you actually take that tiny little instant and you actually stop And it's like lying down on the floor and looking at an ant, isn't it? And appreciating an ant in the grass, you know, rather than just zooming past it on your way to whatever meeting you've got. It's the macro to micro difference, isn't it?

It is. And also, I mean, when I was in New York, somebody told me about the mountains and rivers order of Zen Buddhism outside New York, where every monk— to be a member of that monastery, you had to have a creative practice. In other words, the thinking was— practice was that it kept you connected to your vulnerability. So of course I had to go there, and I find that just again, this kind of— there, there, this is sort of the Zen and the rich understanding of creativity. And vulnerability that I've always— that creativity and intimacy are very connected. People think sharing a podcast, writing, expressions in the world, that's a tremendously intimate expression of oneself.

It is.

And so I love that keeping me connected to the Zen keeps me connected to right attitude.

Are we afraid of the intimate in education now?

Mm-hmm.

I mean, it's funny, that takes me to so many of the seminal moments with students of mine over the years have been when we really connected, when we connected, you know, on a personal human level through. It might have been an insight, it might have been, you know, how are you doing over a coffee outside the classroom, it might have been commenting on a piece of work but doing it in a compassionate or, you know, insightful way or whatever. But that— it's not a dirty word, is it? It's like love isn't a dirty word, you know, people kind of put this thing on them. But intimacy is a really important thing, isn't it? We did that exercise at the beginning of the diploma in the Innovation Academy where Alan had us all sit in a circle and he asked us all to bring an object that meant something to us. And we put them all on the floor and then we all had to choose another of the objects that sang to us, if you like. And then we had to talk about why this sang to us and then why we brought our own object. And in 45 minutes, 19 people who'd never met each other before that moment, before that morning, were bonded in a way that I'd never experienced before. It was the fastest team-building exercise that worked. that I'd ever seen, because we shared, and there were tears and there were laughter and stuff. But there was an intimacy created almost, you know, immediately. It was fun. It was a really powerful experience.

I mean, it's a brilliant example. And I'll go back to the thing about intimacy. But I just want to say, add something to— you shared as people, not as roles. Yeah. So often what happens, and that's part of the freedom of that exercise, it's like your essence, because if you choose the object, there's something of the spark of you that will be expressed. Whereas often starting in courses, it's like people start with, my role is, and instantly you're into hierarchies and you're into compare and contrast. Often in the Innovation Academy, you would not have a clue what ranking, role, grade, anything anybody has. It is actually completely irrelevant to us. It becomes relevant later when maybe you want to link with people and it's of interest and so on. But in the moment, in the beginning, you're just shipping up as a person and you're using that kind of core creativity connection, and that's what— that's where the flow will come from. I think it's very interesting what you're saying about intimacy, and that kind of connects me as well to the pandemic.

Okay.

Because we've had lots of examples on the educators where people are having to relate differently to students.

Yeah.

And I think this is very interesting, the relationship with the students has changed.

Yes.

So I mean, I think it's so fascinating, there'll probably be theses later down the road, you know, but, you know, we had examples of people, you know, educators saying, look, I'm getting— I'm not actually texting more with my students, they're texting me.

Yeah.

And the spelling is all wrong.

Doesn't matter.

But this is the question, should I be picking it up as an educator? Are we designed to correct the spelling? Or actually, is it about the relationship, which I would never have had?

Yeah.

So I think this is so interesting, and I think it's so interesting as well about the pandemic. You talk of the intimacy and human warmth and connection. One of the fascinating things that we are discovering through online facilitation, you actually can have the same feeling connected.

Definitely.

Definitely. But isn't that, isn't that extraordinary?

We didn't see this. We didn't think that pre-pandemic, the assumption was, yes, can't do this.

Exactly.

It was an incorrect assumption.

Correct, but what does it say about the power of that also, that the desire to connect? Can you actually have learning without human connection? And is human connection all different ways? Is it between colleagues? Is it between myself and myself? Is it between myself and my students?

Hmm.

And actually, what the pandemic has done is so fascinating. Because in a sense it forced out all the existing conventions of, you know, relationship, you could say. That is still relationship with people, but sort of the way relationships have reconfigured. Or are they? Or where are they going? It's like, yeah, it's like it's forced a light onto the power of relationship.

Yeah. And I've been really struck by how successfully I was perhaps able to build a relationship with my master's students this year who I met once.

Interesting, interesting.

In a big room and they all had masks on, so I didn't— couldn't really see their faces anyway. But Zoom, you know, I mean, one thing Zoom gives you is the name.

Yes. So do you think physical connecting is going to be important, is still important in education?

I think, I think it's still important. And it's funny because the Innovation Academy asked me to do some feedback to them recently about online or offline or blended or whatever, and I made a very strong case that the shack is now my spiritual home. You know, because I had these seminal connection moments in there in the first 1.5 modules. And I said, the online experience of the last 1.5 modules was fantastic, much more better than I thought it would be, but don't throw the other away.

Yes.

And I think in the teaching that I'm facing into in September. I mean, the college is asking us all to go back to the classroom. I mean, it's just business as usual. That's the message from my college at the moment. What I'm going to propose to the students and, you know, I'm going to build into my courses in a, say, a 12-week course, maybe 8 of the classes will be classroom sessions, but the other 4 are going to be Zoom because I think Business students need to learn how to operate online now.

That is so true.

So I think that, you know, whether it's, you know, it's not me being lazy and saying, oh, I'm just gonna take a few, you know, days off and we'll just do Zoom calls, because Zoom calls are actually harder to do than in-class sessions from a, you know, a prep and a tiring point of view. But I think there's benefits to both, and I think we need to Recognize that, and I need— we need to build on that in a way and not throw away the personal connection, because there is something. There is something about being in a room with somebody. There is something about making a coffee, you know, in the kitchen with somebody and just kind of catching up and, oh, you've got a new puppy? Yeah, we've got a puppy as well. And you don't get that on Zoom.

No.

You just don't.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's amazing. Oh my goodness, we've got so many more questions. And let me see, let's do a jump.

Okay.

Let's do a jump. Why did Professor John Coolahan inspire you so much? He was a director, a board member when you were—

Of the Ark. So, I mean, many people in Ireland would probably know Professor John Coolahan. He hugely influential in education, and what inspired me about him was he absolutely walked the talk. He got not one single penny for that work on that board.

Right.

He came to me, to so many meetings of the Department of Education, he drafted papers, he did all these things that were entirely invisible.

Yes.

And he helped and supported me so much in my thinking, and for the ARC. He passionately cared about the ARC, and he cared so much about arts education. Martin Drury, who was the founding director of the ARC, tells a very nice story about John Coogan, that he remembers his first experience of being taken to the Abbey Theatre John was his teacher at the time, and he— but what he remembered most about the trip was the middle break where all the Coca-Colas were lined up on the kind of bar, and this was part of the treat of the day out. And it was only later as an adult that he realized John was paying for all of this.

Right, yeah, yeah. But it comes back down, it comes back to passion, question again, doesn't it? It's that—

Yeah, and there's something about the ego. I think the ego in education is very difficult.

Yes.

You know, the desire to be seen, the desire to have one's own identity, and I think that education can be a very flattening sort of world where you just sort of, you know, you're, you know, it's hard the grapple of being both an individual and wanting individual attention.

Yes.

At the same time being in this kind of amorphous system.

Yeah.

So I think that there's something about John and the ego. He had had this incredibly distinguished career and he was now, you know, mostly retired but doing amazing reports for the OECD and traveling all over the world. So he had his ego well in place. He could do these invisible things because he cared about meaning, purpose, values.

Yeah, amazing. Your whole career has been involved in media of one kind or another and of creation and of inspiration. And your plus one is cultivate a capacity to visualize. Images are a powerful resource. And I mean, you know, as soon as I read that, I thought, oh, I love that, because I mean, I'm a photographer and that's my little kind of creative, if you like. You're a big creative. I can't draw, I can't paint, I'm colorblind, but I can point a camera at things and occasionally something comes out that resonates. So, you know, tell us more about this capacity to visualize. Why images? What's so special about imagery?

Well, I just think that in particular in Ireland, we're a very oral-written tradition, and we don't attend to the visual as much. But all research shows that, you know, we, you know, as a people, if you go to, I mean, if you go to Newgrange, Oh yes, amazing.

We took the children, yeah, as soon as it opened again. Yeah, I love it.

It's stunning, it's a visual communication, and I think that we underestimate the visual capacity just generally, you know, that people are speaking in images all the time. Yes, and images are often a way in, and they can enliven and enrich connection between people, and also, you know, for organizational life, you know, working in images, working, you know, that's a— not everybody is written.

Yeah.

And we make a mis— it's a misframing to believe that that is so, I think, you know. So that's just, I mean, I just, I'm very interested in, you know, just in in image. And I've just been so interested in how people just love, you know, any kind of drawing exercises, any sort of visualization exercises. It's so kind of soothing, nourishing for people. And it's like as if there's another side of themselves that comes into the fore and moves in, and it's much more sort of playful and, um, you know, just just, um, letting be.

Yeah, it's the left brain, right brain.

It is that left brain, right brain thing, you know, it is definitely. And we have— I, I've really come to understand, uh, Joe, that I think a lot of people are now coming to the Innovation Academy because their, their professional life in particular, and maybe life, is very, very, very, very left brain dominated, and there's a desire for right-brain balance. So it's a kind of lopsided, and so these things that are drawing and dreaming and reflection and writing and, you know, kind of more free exercises, people love that.

Yeah, tell me about the lake walk.

Yeah, well, just when I started, I had never been to UCD before I went for the interview for the Innovation Academy. I'd literally never had step foot on the campus. I was so surprised at how beautiful it was, and that was the first thing that really struck me. So when I had an opportunity to design the professional— co-design the Professional Diploma on Creativity, Innovation and Leadership with Fergal Brophy, some of what we wanted to do was sort of play around with more freedom.

Yes.

So particularly after the design thinking day, which as you know can be full on, full on, full on, I would do a kind of a creative walk in the morning and I structured it all around the different lakes, different natural sites on UCD. And I was so amazed, people just loved, you know, this kind of— these exercises that are much more in nature and meditative and creative and free-flowing and a bit of, oh, all right, we'll give it a go. Don't know what you're on about, but, you know, people just surrender, you know. And there's something so lovely. It's not kind of like, gotta do this, gotta have a report in, gotta have everything in. It's more— and, and, and in that deepening, settling moment, it's amazing where people come to. And, you know, we see we're getting more now, um, interviews and articles from students, and there was one this week. There was a business case study on radio with Anna from— Anna O'Flanagan from Red Squirrel Team Building, and she did an interview and she talked all about the question that completely stayed with her from the Academy, and that was, what gives me joy?

What gives me joy?

What gives me joy? And so some of these exercises in nature, there's a lot of research at the minute, the regenerative connection with nature. And we don't see this in New York City, those beautiful lakes, the, the, the birds, the, you know, the little bee hotels. And, you know, to structure exercises around that was lovely.

I love that. I love that, what gives me joy. And I mean, I use that with my students who are looking for jobs and are deciding on career paths and stuff. And so often they'll come to me and they'll say, I don't know where to go, or I don't know what to do, or I've got 2 or 3 job offers and which one should I take? And I say, well, I'm not going to tell you which one you should take because I don't know. But what I would say is, yeah, what do you love?

Yes, yes.

Smile when you read it. What makes your heart sing when you think, oh, I could do that, you know? Go for that one. Don't go for the one that pays the most money. Just go for the one that gives you joy. You'll never go wrong with that.

No.

You'll never go wrong with that, will you?

No.

The call to action is walk or swim or do something in nature at the start of your day. That's very much connected to the same thing, isn't it?

It is. I think that again, a lot of research how you start the day, if you can have some connection with nature. So in other words, I wanted just to be more wild card, I suppose. That is me. Yes, you can read and do things and so on, but there's something about coming back into a practice with oneself, and actually you don't have to spend a single penny to do that. But if you kind of can spend— start your morning some connection. If you— and if you're in a high-rise, you know, building, just even looking up at the sky for 5 minutes, these lacunas— all research shows if you can build in some space that really— for yourself.

Yeah.

And that kind of capacity to self-nourish, self-reflect, take your— take yourself seriously, take your creativity seriously, and the day will be as it will be.

Yes.

But it sets the day differently, and then you can build your practice. I also really encourage people— there's loads of things at the minute— podcasts, free resources, libraries that, if you know, they've got wonderful material for free. More and more people are working in this area of creativity, and they're innovation. If you are seriously interested, there's, there's lots you can do to really develop that practice in yourself. And I am telling you, it will make a difference.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It will bring you joy as well.

It will, it will bring you, it will bring you joy, but you will experience yourself differently.

You will.

Not all joy. I mean, you know, create the creative life, it can be full of pain too, and rejection. But it's, it's, you experience yourself as creatively alive. Most people are going around in the world as if they had no creativity. That, to, to know that you are creatively alive is a wonderful resource that you can depend on and that you can work with and that you can enjoy. And, you know, it's, it's, it will always be available to you. We had a student recently, the entire building went on fire and all of the stuff was destroyed. We're working with people at the minute in the HSE on the cyber attack.

Okay.

You know, but if you've got the creative resource in yourself, the whole place— and of course I know what a bomb is like— so the whole place can come down, but if you are creatively alive, you're alive.

I'm looking at the time and we're almost on the hour, so let's just round off because that creative aliveness, but also the fact that it's difficult as well, I think takes us to the book. I mean, I know you wrote it a while ago and it's just been re-released, but Even just reading the first few chapters, I mean, I was gobsmacked last night. I was stunned at how raw and how open and honest and powerful that writing is. That can't have been easy. And, you know, there was quite a gap between you finishing the therapy, by the sound of it, and actually releasing the book.

Yes, yes. Yes, yes.

Tell us the story, tell us a little bit about it, because I think, I mean, I couldn't believe what I was reading into you. And I mean, it was that, that's why I said there's so many facets to you.

Yes, yes. So I, so yes, so I wrote a manuscript which I called To Call Myself Believer. it. And it took me a huge amount of time and every sort of energy and creative energy.

Yeah.

And essentially, it's really about— it's got 2 themes. It's an experience of therapy, but written only from the client or the patient's perspective. You never get any other perspective. And it's also the second theme was about the Troubles and the impact of the Troubles that really has seen, I think, very little light of day. So when the manuscript was finished, I then realized I probably couldn't publish it, and I realized that it was just— you talk about intimacy— this, I couldn't be true to my experience of therapy and it not be intimate. But of course, the problem was I then was faced with why it is that no one actually publishes, because it's so intimate. And so it was my grapple, it was very difficult for me to know what to do with it. I didn't want to hurt people, and these things are always absolutely intimate.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I had to take a very ethical approach to it, and the manuscript Would not let me go. That's the only way I can describe it.

Because it's so— it draws you in, it's so powerful.

So I wanted— I knew I had uncomfortable subjects that would not be getting people going to the Amazon shopping list, so I had to— that was part of my task. I had to craft a book to my absolute best of my ability, and I wanted the reader with me because I knew I knew it was difficult. So I had to write in a way that people have often said, read like a novel. But I wanted that. It isn't a novel. You know, everything was authentic in the book. But I wanted that kind of, you know, that level of writing so that people would feel, I can stay with this. And also, I wanted that kind of integrity. And so basically, eventually, the therapist involved very generously gave his permission, and I spoke to my mother, who really said, okay, well, look, if this will help other people— there were 2 conditions— if this will help other people, and if it gives you pleasure, creative pleasure, publish it. So I waited until her death.

Right.

I actually— and these projects are deep, you know, both my parents, you know, I waited.

Yeah.

And, you know, I then tried to get a publisher, that took a while, but New Island Books published it, and my agent Jonathan Williams was marvelous, and he really— we both believed in this I thought it would go a certain direction. It didn't, in the way I wanted people— I thought at one level, could people engage with Northern Ireland? And I came to realize on its publication that they can't.

All right.

But where it went to was not how I expected, so it was kind of like the surprise of innovation as well. and the creative life, and where it went to was people in therapy and also people, counsellors, psychotherapists, academics, but also the clients. So I began to get then a lot of correspondence from people in therapy, people, because what people recognized was, you're writing of me.

Yeah.

You're writing something of my experience that actually no one else is writing about. So I replied to absolutely everything. I think it was no— I think it was connected that I went to America when my book came out. I think maybe I was afraid. I mean, obviously at the time I was CEO and artistic director of the Ark. I had a public role. I thought, oh my God, how are people going to react to this? My catastrophic fantasy was that I was going to get sack and that people would say, you brought us in to distribute. And I thought, if they do, they do. I cared so much about this. I really had, you know, walked a long road, and I had made a promise to myself that if ever I saw a better day, I would help another person. And I could not find a book who— that actually explained or described an experience of therapy that I could recognize. Everything was too posh, everything was too academic, everything was always right. It didn't have the blood and gore, it didn't have the guts, it didn't have the misunderstandings. And to me, that was essential.

And so I love the way you fell out with your therapist.

Exactly.

Just arguments, and there was discomfort.

Exactly, exactly. And how generous was the therapist? Because of course it's a younger self, it's our younger selves, and I mean, you know, that's what people really loved. And I mean, I was very struck. I spoke at a big conference recently between an American association, an Irish association, and the UK association, and a student spoke from the floor and said, thank you because you've made it okay to make a mistake. And I just thought that was so— I felt so affirmed and that these things had actually mattered. But I— so in other words, when I'm always talking about risk and experimentation, all those things, I have walked some of this road. Risk-taking is tough.

Yeah.

But there's only one life. With creativity, and education, with everything. We're working with mortality, you know. We have a lot of— we're working with a lot of educators who want to live this educational life well, you know.

And that Mary Oliver quote that I love, that my wife gave me a year or two ago, you know, what am I going to do with my one wild wonderful life?

That's right, that's right, that's right.

Wonderful quote.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, and people have to choose the risk. It took me years to come to the conclusion that I would risk.

Yeah, well, I'm so glad you did because I'm just— I'm just— I just can't put it down. It's a super book and I'm really You know, I don't know whether I'm enjoying it, but I'm growing.

Yes, yeah, thank you so much. So I better say it, for New Ireland Books, so it's To Call Myself Beloved by Enya McCue, and there is a new printout this year, and that is because so many people who were in therapy wanted to keep reading it.

Well, I'll put it— I'll put a link in the show notes.

Thank you so much.

I'm very conscious that we've gone way over time, and I promised everybody an hour. So you have other things to do this morning, I'm sure.

Yes, a pleasure, and I wish you really well with the podcast and with the Innovation Fellow. You're one of the first Innovation Fellows, and I think this is a wonderful initiative. And I really encourage you to go run around all the pitches.

Yeah, well, I'll try to, and you'll no doubt point me at others as we, as we continue our conversations. So thank you so much.

No worries, pleasure.

Thank you.