Audio Episode 4 - Dr Leo Kilroy on education in Europe

Hi, my name's Joe Houghton and this is the Plus One Podcast. Today I've got Dr. Leo Kilroy with us. So Leo's CV has got education running right through it from, from start to up to today. He started with a bachelor's in education with music and Irish. picked up a doctorate in education. He's taught in inner-city primary schools. You've been a director, programme director at Hibernia College. And since 2012, kind of a bit of a shift, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little while, you've been in increasingly senior roles in the Department of Education and Skills, and now representing Ireland in the EU as— now let me get this right— Education and Skills Attaché to Ireland's Permanent Representation to the European Union. There's a mouthful.

An awful mouthful, Joe, isn't it?

So you're a kind of— you're an educational policymaker with a background at the coalface. Would that be a good description?

I think that that's probably a good place to start it, yeah. I now work in educational policy, but I've come through a kind of a journey that you've described, starting as a primary teacher in North City in Dublin, working for a number of years there. And during that period, I was lucky enough to get a secondment to work at The Ark, a cultural centre for children in Temple Bar, for a period as well. And that was quite a formative space. And then some of the other roles— I joined the department in 2012, worked initially as a Schools Inspector, mainly in the primary sector, as was that external evaluation role, and then worked within the Inspectorate as well in the Evaluation Support and Research Unit before I moved to my current role in Brussels, which, as you've described, is representing Ireland really in the European Council negotiations and some of the educational policies, education training policy space. in the EU. And I also do some work with representing Ireland in the Education Policy Committee at the OECD in Paris.

Okay.

But that's kind of an occasional piece of my job. My main role is in the EU space and looking at, I suppose, Ireland's space in the EU with regard to education and training and, I suppose, the supports that the EU can provide us as a country to look at our own education system, our own training system, our further education system. Some of that is in a financial way, some of it is in a quality questioning way, and some of it is the role that Ireland can play and that our system can play in encouraging other systems to, you know, problem solve some of the things that we've already problem solved. But it's, I suppose, it's an interesting space that I'm in at the moment, and it's very much in that kind of very much cross-policy space. So I'm looking at kind of lots of things from early childhood education right up to adult continuing and lifelong learning.

Wow. So I mean, I suppose if I kind of wear my educator hat as an assistant professor at Smurfit, you know, my week kind of looks like kind of, you know, a few sessions with students several times a week, I'm doing some grading, I'm setting, you know, I'm setting up new assignments and stuff like that. What does your week look like? Because presumably you're not in the classroom anymore, you're actually—

Yeah, well, of course everybody's week is quite contained at the moment, so I'm working from home largely. I do go into— I'm able to go into the office just once, you know, occasionally to do some bits, but my week consists— but one of my main things will be to represent Ireland at any meetings that there are for the Education Committee. So the Education Committee is a council committee that looks at education and training. It's chaired by whoever's in the European Council presidency for that particular 6 months. So at the moment it's Portugal. And through those meetings, I suppose we progress some of the policy that's agreed at a European level for all member states to sign up to. So I'll typically have at least one of those meetings per week. In advance of that meeting, I have a lot of the kind of— I get the papers from it, so I'm, I'm tic-tacking with our other policy units in Dublin to just check that our line is okay in this regard, or maybe to talk it through with one of the policy experts in a particular field, and I suppose preparing to represent Ireland then at those meetings. It's also— my week also kind of revolves around maybe some bilateral meetings with somebody from the European Commission about something that's important to Ireland at a particular particular time, other education and skills attachés from other countries, you know, I suppose that networking with them and, um, I suppose exchanging views with them on either the current policy area or something that's coming down the tracks. So going back to what that current policy area is in the European Union, we're looking at the moment at— well, we've concluded one set of Council recommendations on the establishment of the European Education Area. And the European Education Area is, I suppose, it's being developed off the back of European Research Area and other cooperation initiatives at an EU level. But the EEA really is around cooperation for, you know, amongst member states, amongst systems, amongst universities, schools, at an overall European level, so that every member state retains its national competence in education. It's not about replacing that national competence, but it's about finding ways for synergies to happen and for cooperation to happen. So that was one big piece of work a couple of months ago, and currently then we're working on 2 sets of conclusions. One is about equity of access and inclusion for all, so it's really about learning from each other. So we set a common policy frame for equity and access and inclusion, and I suppose that so that equity and access lead to success for all learners. at every level, and so that learners can be as successful as, you know, as possible with the right policy background in place. And then the other piece of work that's ongoing at the moment is work around the European Universities Initiative, which is very much linked to the European education area work. And it's really about providing opportunities through Erasmus funding for universities to work together in partnership in an innovative way. So not just in the sending students for a visit to Germany or to another member state, but for universities and departments to really work together on co-created programs, on different forms of learning that really are— I suppose that students can benefit from the expertise and the strengths of both or several institutions rather than just one and maybe dip into the other. So we're going to see an exciting time, I think, in higher ed, you know, with the European Universities Initiative over the next decade or so, because there's an increased amount of funding going to come from the Commission over that time. And I think national governments as well are going to look at how can we make this, because we're in a space where knowledge is is so much easier for all of us to engage with. Knowledge is no longer cachet because lots of it is readily available there, but we're in a space where co-construction of knowledge is more important than knowing about things that already exist. So my role in that really is going to those negotiations with Ireland's perspective, sometimes pushing for things a little bit more so that it will favour our own domestic space, but also with the hat on that, you know, we are all in this together as a European Union. And some of it is to reflect some of the things that we know have really worked well in Ireland in terms of our education policy and ensure that those things are layered into any Council conclusions or Council recommendations that emerge from these discussions or from this from this process so that what's working well in Ireland starts to work well in other European countries.

Yeah.

And similarly, so we all co-create this process, so we are kind of learning from each other. And, you know, while we come from very different countries and, you know, there's the stereotypes that we all place on other European countries, we have an awful lot of commonality, particularly in educational policy and in what what countries want for their education systems, what they want for their learners, the types of learners they want, the types of skills they want learners to have, the types of experiences that we want our learners to have. So there's kind of a— there's a two-way process, if you like, that's happening there all of the time. Wow.

Well, from that, two questions kind of jumped out at me. One would be, well, so what does Ireland do well? You know, what do we bring to the table? If you like, in those discussions. And I suppose the second one would be, you know, because you've probably got a much better insight into this than people, you know, like myself, who kind of are working in one country, if you like, is kind of what are we going to see over the next 10 years or so? I mean, has that been informed by COVID and, you know, the fact that we're all doing Zoom calls now? So is the partnership all going to be remote? or are we still going to be traveling to institutions and experiencing stuff for real? But start with Ireland. So what do we bring to the table? What do we do well?

Yeah, I think we bring lots to the table. You know, I think first of all, we have, you know, we've worked hard as a system to ensure that we have learners with good basic skills, or lots of our learners have good basic skills. Now, that doesn't mean that all of our learners do. We still have some improvement to go there, but that kind of basic literacy numeracy, we're doing quite well and we've worked hard. I think we've shown, I suppose, and one of the things that we sometimes show other member states is the journey we've come on, you know, to actually get there. So I think that's one of the things that we bring. We have a good sense of equity and inclusion in our system. We still have more to do, but we have had a lot of initiatives. We have, you know, we have a long-standing social initiative in schools, the DESH initiative, which is a really strong initiative that other member states are always really anxious to hear about, you know, and they're interested to see how we've made the interventions we've had. Now, we recognize we still have work to do, but again, it's something to celebrate and that we do celebrate. I think we've lots of other, you know, at a further and higher education level, we have a very flexible qualification system that other member states really are— I won't say envious of— yes, they are envious of, but they always want to hear about it. And I think we're really well prepared in terms of our qualifications framework for the type of learning that I think our learners are going to need from now on, which is nuggets of lifelong learning regularly.

Yes.

And our level— our framework is really malleable in that regard, so that we can do a microcredential at Level 7. Really just helpful, you know, from our own learning perspective. You know, and so that's something that's a real strength in our system. I think we also have good autonomy in terms of our institutions. You know, our legislative framework for higher education allows for a lot of autonomy for institutions, certainly in the academic freedom space, and that's something that's really well enshrined in lots of European countries, but particularly in Ireland. And, you know, that's— and it's legislatively enshrined in Ireland, which is a good thing and something that lots of universities are interested in and higher ed systems are interested to hear about. I think we've a lot— staying in the higher ed space, we've a lot of— I suppose we've progressed our diversity of offering quite a lot over the last decade or more. And again, that's something that lots of of member states are interested to hear about. I think we've much to learn as well from other member states. I think our further and vocational education system, we've neglected it for a long time in Ireland. You know, we have put all of our eggs into the higher education basket. And so, you know, and that's something that our department is addressing from a policy perspective, you know, at the moment. And we've learned from other member states as well in that regard. Your second question then, Joe, was about what's the future going to look like, that future collaboration and that future engagement.

Yeah, and particularly in terms of, I think probably a lot of people listening to the podcast and kind of reading the book that hopefully follows will be kind of like, you know, coalface educators. They'll be teachers, they'll be, you know, college teachers, professors, whatever. So can you connect, if you like, their experience with what's coming down the line From a policy perspective, if you like, because you've been in both places. So, you know, what are we going to see different as educators over the next 10 years, say, in terms of opportunity, in terms of the way we deliver stuff, in terms of what we can offer our students with the programs that we're delivering and developing?

Yeah, COVID has changed everything. Yeah, it has. You know, like, we know, we've, you know, it's cliché at this stage, there is no going back from it. And I think our, you know, we're going to enter into a space, I'd say, where our further and higher education offering is delivered in a very different way. We're going to learn— now, I don't think it's going to, you know, for some learners it won't fully replace the on-campus experience, but it will give them choices about it. And I think what we're all starting to realize, even though we're doing well with technology at the moment and everything is going okay from a technological perspective, the human connection space is now missing.

Yeah.

And I think, I'm sure you're finding that with your students, you know, I'm finding that from my workspace. I know from talking to students, talking to learners, talking to kids who are in school, that is, they're the kinds of things that they missed. You know, some of the offerings still stayed there and some of the, you know, some of the quality of the teaching maybe they received might even have been improved in the online space, but it didn't— it couldn't replace the interactive, the learning together, the learning from each other, the co-construction, the deconstructing. So I think we'll probably move to a more blended space in the world, and I think because of COVID cooperation with other parts of the world, with other universities, are going to be so much easier to facilitate.

Yes.

Now again, that cooperation And I think, you know, we've debated this at an EU level. Yes, lots of the mobility can happen and the cooperation can happen in the online space. We still need to retain the opportunities for the physical mobility and for the physical cooperation. But we need to, I suppose, we start to think about our universities as really, as, you know, if we take it to that overall partnership idea, there might be 5 universities delivering a singular bachelor's program. But it's how—

Yes.

It's how we use the expertise from all 5 or 6 institutions to really shape a world-class program. Because with the best will in the world, you know, one single university is not going to be able to attract all of the, you know, all of the high-class thinkers that it needs to deliver a full world-class program. But if we stand back and think about 5 universities who are working together, who have all done their best to attract and have all their own particular niche cultural pieces, and then we put all of that into the same pot and deliver and design and deliver and evaluate programs. You know, I suppose from a learner's point of view, from a student's point of view, that's change, that's mind-changing, that's a life-changing You know, so we're no longer going to be limited by the capacity of the individual institution to design, deliver, and facilitate learning.

That's— I mean, so this— I have some students in most of my classes from the SEMS program at Smurfit, which is kind of— I think it's part of Erasmus, isn't it? Where these are drawn from all different universities all around Europe and they come and do a semester and, you know, one or two modules at Smurfit and then they move on to other places and they normally, I think, get a dual degree out of that.

Yeah, okay, yeah.

It's kind of like an expansion of that that you're talking about.

It's kind of— yes, but your students that come to Smurfit for a semester now, so they get that kind of a rich diverse experience for 3 months or for 4 months or whatever period it is, Well, can you imagine if that is— if you enter into a 4-year bachelor program and that's the constant nature of the delivery of the program?

Yeah.

So you might decide, actually, you know, conceivably you could enroll in a program that's delivered across 6 universities. You do a semester in each of those 6 universities while at the same time engaging with the other 5 universities for some of the teaching. Because some of it will be delivered in an online way. What kind of a learner are you going to be at the end of that, you know, that 6-semester process? Why, you know, if you think— so if you're doing a business degree but you're hearing in 3 different modules that you're studying in the same semester about practices in 3 or 4 countries and from academics that have been influenced by the systems that they lived in, Yeah. What kind of, you know, the kinds of thinkers we conceivably can develop in that kind of an environment is transformational, in my opinion.

It would be. How do we get from, if you like, the institutional silos that we're in primarily today? I know a lot of universities, and I mean, you know, UCD as well, you know, we're a global university, And we are making links with other places around the world and, you know, doing a lot of that. But how do we break the institutional silos down then and make that vision a reality? Because that, I mean, from a student perspective, that would be nirvana, wouldn't it? I mean, build your degree from the best of, you know, modules from everywhere. Wow.

Yeah, I mean, look, I suppose I see the initiative that in the European Universities Initiative, you know, in this program or this proposal from Europe, which is underway already on a pilot basis.

Okay.

So there are some Irish universities already participating in the pilot phases of this that started in 2019 and 2020. And the European Commission is very open. It wants this to be a ground-led way to facilitate these partnerships. So I think, I think the first thing about silos is we stay in our silos if we keep looking down into our silo.

Yes.

So whether that, whether that silo is 5 academics that work in the same department, or the silo is 5 departments in the same university, or whether the silos are 5 different universities in different countries, but as soon as we take our heads up from the silos and think and look and I suppose don't let ourselves be constrained by the doors that are between our silos.

Yes.

That's— and I think it's all about conditioning and it's all about our— the way we think about how we currently operate. And I think that's when we can start— and like we all— we're all guilty of it. We all end up putting our heads down in our own silo and that's just I think human nature. But I think if we can keep getting our heads up from our silos, we could reach that kind of transformation, transformative experiences for our— you know, we're talking in the higher ed space here at the moment, but conceivably these kinds of partnerships could and should be influencing all our systems at other levels, at lifelong level, at post-primary level, at our further and vocational education systems. You know, so I think, you know, how do we get beyond our silos? I think we have to, first of all, have to have the willingness, and then we have to look up.

Right. And I mean, that's my next question, I suppose, isn't it? How do we get beyond the silos? How do we facilitate a secondary school teacher or an assistant professor to look outside their department, to look outside their university? I mean, one And one thing that I became aware of about a year ago, and I've become quite involved with now, even as an ambassador, is EAPAL-E, which is the European Adult Learning Network. And I've run a few seminars for them and contributed some stuff and whatever. And I mean, that's 80,000 educators across Europe just collaborating in all kinds of spaces. Are there any other fora? like that, that you know of, if you like, that you could tell listeners about, if you like, help them, if you like, get their head above the parapet and, you know, connect into that wider world?

Well, the Erasmus programme is a great umbrella for all of this, right? And, you know, there are some existing exchange programmes for secondary teachers and for third-level staff. Well, one of the things that's agreed in the next phase of Erasmus, which I suppose the European Universities is one pillar of that, but they're also what the Commission are calling Teacher Academies, and they're going to be launched in 2022.

Okay.

And they're academies not in the physical academic sense. Yes, they'll have a physical presence, but they are going to be the types— they're going to be teacher academies at post-primary level, at primary level, at higher education level to facilitate that networking and that looking across 27 member states.

Wow.

And so there's a significant amount of Commission funding coming for that, and they are going to facilitate learning together, they're going to facilitate exchanges, they're going to facilitate, you know, staff coming together for summer programmes, and with hefty budget behind it. So I think that's something that's really on its way, that will build on the current exchanges that lots of people have already engaged in through Comenius at post-primary level and through other Erasmus programmes at university level. But there is space to watch, and I think there's going to be a lot of— first of all, I suppose there'll be a lot of discussion about them late this year and early next year, but there's going to be a lot of communication around them as well from the Commission. over the next 2 years. I think they're going to be a very exciting space, and I think the Commission's idea is that there are lots of programmes, lots of bonfires if you like, that are going to come together to help transform the things that need to transform.

And if somebody was kind of, you know, if somebody heard that and said, wow, yeah, that sounds amazing, how do I get involved? how do I become part of that conversation? How do I contribute to that rather than just being a recipient of it?

Yeah.

Because I mean, you made a jump, didn't you? You went from teaching into this space, if you like, and it's a rarefied space that I think most educators think kind of like, that's so far away from my daily teaching experience, it, you know, it might as well not exist, if you like. But it will exist with that coming coming through. So how do we make the jump and how do we connect?

Look, I think some of it is seizing opportunities when they come along. I think when I look back at my career, I kind of, you know, I didn't start with the vision of jumping around the place like I've done in my career, but that just kind of happened. And I think it's about seizing opportunities there will be open calls for any teacher at any level to engage in shaping these teacher academies, because that is— that's one of the things that when the teacher academies do come on stream, that's one of the things that the Commission will be committed to, is making sure that they're ground-up organizations, not an imposed structure.

Yeah.

And that is— that's something that's very clear from the the new regulation for Erasmus is that there will be lots of opportunities for teachers to shape these academies.

I guess that was one of my key questions, is it ground up or is it just going to be, you know, the people at the top saying this is what should happen kind of thing?

Yeah, and like, I think certainly that's the intention, like, you know, and I think sometimes when we're not part of policy formation, if we don't get involved in the ground-up consultation and in the discussions, or when we see something and seize the opportunity to be part of it at that earlier phase, it can appear then that it's top-down. Now, I'm not trying to deny at all that top-down policymaking happens, because of course it does.

Of course it does.

I've been party to it, I'm sure, on occasion. But there are often opportunities to engage in the groundswell, Yes. We sometimes maybe don't have time for, you know, because of the pressures, and it's very natural, very normal. But I think, you know, there are often opportunities that we can get involved in. And with these, what I've mentioned about both the European Universities Initiative and the Teacher Academies, they have both been statutorily created saying that, you know, ground-up policy formation needs to be a core principle in how these initiatives proceed.

Wow, that sounds really exciting. That's kind of something for us to look forward to, isn't it, over the next year or two?

Yes, absolutely. I think it has the potential to be really exciting, and in a post-COVID world, I think we're probably readier for that now than we might have been even 2 years ago, you know.

Wow, absolutely. That's phenomenal. Okay, let me pull out a couple of different questions then. Let's just take a different tack. So, what educational experiences have made the biggest impression on you and why? You've been through a number of different areas of education, haven't you?

Yeah.

And I noticed you also, you were involved in I mean, it was music, I think, was one of your things early on as well, wasn't it?

It was, yeah. Yeah, so I mean— Yeah, so educational experience, yes. Well, I think, you know, I'm instinctively, I suppose, drawn to my formative education. So I think my post-primary education, I had quite a good experience in a small rural vocational school in the west of Ireland.

Right.

You know, and it was very much kind of you know, there were 25 kids in my class at post-primary level, so it was a very small school. So I think that was a kind of a formative kind of— and I think because it was small, you know, everybody had— everybody, I suppose, found their own channels through it. So I think that was formative, you know, that I found a channel through it that was different to, you know, because there were so few people to compare yourself to in many ways, you had to create your own channel. So I think that, that, that in one way was formative. I mentioned music. Music, I suppose, was kind of— yes, was an important aspect of my own kind of learning and my own kind of— my own opportunities to try different things and to be creative and to be— to move outside of that box. If I was to say kind of from a work perspective, the learning that I— the year or more that I spent in the Ark and some of the other work that I did at that period of my life kind of were parallel to the teaching world, but they really influenced how I thought about teaching, how I brought creativity into my own classroom, how I brought arts-based learning, as it was really very much, into what I did on a day-to-day basis. And then I think the other big learning journey for me was when I did the doctorate in education. That was kind of transformational again in terms of my thinking. And I decided— I was accepted to a doctoral program in Ireland, and I decided to go to the University of Nottingham, actually. And that in itself was great because I was meeting so many people from other systems who thought about, you know, it was quite an international— it wasn't designed to be an international program, but it drew students from lots of different countries. There were students from Asia on the program, students from the Middle East, lots of students from England, some from Ireland, and several other countries. And that in itself, I suppose, just helped me to kind of stand back from my understanding of education and really deconstruct and reconstruct it again, because there were people studying all sorts of topics and all sorts of things. And it was, it was just useful. I think it wasn't so much that the stuff that I learned, the thesis I got it completed and got, I guess, got that done, but it was the learning process in the, you know, in the, in the sharing weeks and weekends and, and things that were facilitated in the university. that were kind of the formative pieces and the formative parts of that program.

That's interesting because, yeah, I suppose 2 or 3 years ago, kind of, I'd done 10 years of university teaching following an MBA where I'd gone in to start being a lecturer, and I thought, I've never actually been taught how to teach. I've never actually studied education. So I went and did the I did the postgrad diploma in university teaching and learning, and then I did the Innovation Academy thing. And like you said, both of those programs for me were transformational because suddenly I became aware that there were so many other ways to do things. And some of the stuff I was doing was fine, and some of it was, you know, okay, but there were other things to know.

And it's maybe, it's the other variables that you haven't considered.

Yes. Yes, that was—

I found that's— I think that's how I reflect on the doctoral program, is there are variables in the world that I had dismissed, or maybe not, maybe I just wasn't aware of.

Well, you just weren't aware of the unknown unknowns. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, yeah. And I didn't even know that I needed to know about them, you know, which was— yeah, yeah. So it was that— that was transformational in that respect, you know.

Fantastic. Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Well, for everybody on the calls for the podcast, I always ask for a plus one, for one nugget, one actionable piece of advice that listeners who are educators can take into their own practice perhaps, and, you know, something to improve or try or whatever. So, you know, based on all your experience, what would your plus one be for listeners?

Yeah, it's— I think it's It's more of a strategy that I've used.

Okay.

And I suppose for the last decade or more, I have one or two people that I talk to regularly in a kind of— we have agreed to do these kind of problem-solving calls or, you know, they're, you know, I've, I've done some of the coaching stuff and I found that very useful. But I think what I typically have is one or two people in my life and they're, they're more or less friends or people that I know well. and that I have an open, honest relationship with, and that they don't work in the same sector as me. So they don't work in education.

Okay.

And I'm lucky I've had at least one of those people kind of, you know, just consistently. And we don't make it a formal kind of, you know, meeting, but it's just that there is this— we have maybe an engagement once a month or so, and it's a very useful way just to stand back from yourself with somebody else's eyes who's from a different sector, because I think we think like each other when we're from similar sectors.

Yes.

And, you know, we have similar sets of experiences. So, and I found that a useful tool over the last 10 years, because I think for us to be the best people that we can be, we need to think about ourselves and think about what were the things that made me tick in that situation, and what are the things that are driving me mental about this work situation, and how can I get around it?

Yeah.

So I think wherever you're at, if you're a primary teacher, if you're an early years specialist, if you're a post-primary or a third-level educator, or you're working in industry, I think it's about having somebody that helps you problem-solve the tricky situations or helps you digest for yourself what made a situation successful.

Isn't that interesting? Because the message I've got from you today is that diversity works, I suppose. You've talked about, you know, the European initiatives where you're going to bring institutions together and you're going to bring people together all these different places. I mean, you're in a job now where you're representing Ireland out into, you know, the European Commission, the OECD. Your plus one is you've drawn a group of disparate individuals into a safe space where you can talk and trust each other and share and stuff. It's a very powerful message, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

That diversity works, that listening to other voices and connecting with other is so important. And I mean, I suppose that's what brought me to doing this project, is that I connected with the UCD Innovation Academy.

Yeah.

And, you know, and I ended up on a diploma with primary school teachers and a dental nurse and Jen, who was the first interviewee for the podcast, and all kinds of different people. But that was a transformational, amazing experience.

I've learned so much from all of But I think going back to one of your earlier questions about siloing, why do we end up in silos? Because we're with people who are very like us and we're really comfortable in silos.

Yes.

And I think that siloing is really staying within our comfort zones. So whether they're physical comfort zones or just their structural comfort zones. So I think for me, it's always been moving myself out of the comfort zone. comfort zone, and that helps with siloing.

That's fascinating. I did another call with Dr. Jacob Eisenberg at UCD for another episode, and he and I also talked about siloing, and he said almost exactly the same thing. He was talking about kind of embracing discomfort. Okay, yeah, taking yourself out of these silos. And yeah, so that's obviously a common A common theme you're kind of both linked in with. Yeah. If people wanted to kind of follow up, can they connect with you on LinkedIn or—

Yes, I'm on LinkedIn. You'll find me on LinkedIn. Yeah, that's probably the easiest place to contact me on.

I'll put your LinkedIn URL in the show notes.

Great.

So last question then, is there any call to action? you'd like to share with the listeners? Anything that they should do or, you know, connect with or go and look at? Is there a book that, you know, you would recommend or a podcast to listen to, or is there a website, you know, of European learning they should look at? What would you—

I'd encourage anybody to engage with the Commission's the education sections on it. Like, it's— I think one— I think big organizations have difficulty with communication, and I'd say this to the Commission, but there's lots there. There's lots there even to think about how politically and policymakers are trying to join the dots in education and training. So I think take a look at the Commission's website and keep an eye out for the calls Around the European University Initiative, around the the teacher academies when they come and engage with them.

And where do we? All right, so the commission. So you you must email me which.

I'll email you the I'll email you the kind of the dive in link.

Is there a is there a is there a kind of website where where people can kind of register as an interested party to get these calls? Because if you're not on the right mailing list, you don't even perhaps find out about the calls, do you?

Yeah, let me check that actually, because I need to check that, Joe. But let me think about that and I'll get something to you on that.

That'd be fantastic. Okay, well, thank you. Thank you very much for giving up your time today.

Not at all.

I hope it's fascinating. Yeah, yeah, good. Okay, thanks very much.

Great to talk.

Thank you.

Thanks, Joe.

Bye.