Audio Season 2 - Episode 2 - Ann Foulds on sustainability

Hi, my name's Joe Houghton and this is the +1 Podcast. My guest today is Anne Foulds, who recently joined the Innovation Academy at UCD as a facilitation specialist. Anne's got a degree in media and anthropology. She's been a primary school teacher, she's She's a trained journalist and an experienced educator in several fields with a lot of media experience and a passion for sustainability. Her video series, Plastic Free Kids, which we'll talk about in a bit, won the Best Small Business Video Campaign in the 2020 Irish Social Media Awards. Anne is an educational advisor to the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. And if all that isn't enough, she's also a qualified Samági, Samadhi yoga teacher. So, so that's a pretty, pretty eclectic mix, isn't it? Wonderful. In the 2-word kind of description that I ask everybody for before they come on this podcast, Anne describes herself as an opinionated introvert. I love that, Anne. So welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, Joe. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here and to get to talk about a few of the things that I'm passionate about. And yeah, when I hear those 2 words back, I'm thinking, God, that might actually sounds a bit, um, of a downer, but I think—

I think, I mean, it's because I picked up on that as kind of the first question, you know, does the introversion bit kind of play well to, to— I mean, you've got this outward persona, haven't you, of an educator and, you know, a media person and journalist and all the rest of it. But if you've got strong opinions and you're an introvert, those kind of things seem to be At different parts of that spectrum, don't we?

Yeah, it's something that like I've come to embrace, I guess, that introversion about myself and the kind of things that come along with introversion, like being a keen observer, you know, I guess taking my time with things, being quite sensitive to the external. Those things, you know, at this point in my life, I've realized kind of the gifts and the strengths in those and, you know, the ability to say no to things and not to put myself in situations. And therefore, yeah, there is this constant kind of conflict within me that I feel, oh, maybe if I was more of an extrovert, my opinions would be louder or out there. But I am opinionated and I have found ways to channel that. And I feel, you know, a responsibility because of, I guess, my introversion and my introspection and my reflection on life that, you know, my opinions, um, and my, uh, you know, taken in that introverted way, do also have a place in the world. So, and, you know, want to speak for other introverts in that way as well. Uh, not to speak for others, but I do think, you know, introverts and extroverts, the diversity is, is wonderful.

It's wonderful. And I mean, that I, I think maybe some people hear the word introvert and they kind of think of all the inward-facing stuff without thinking about the positivity of introversion, you know, as you've just described it, you know, the analytical ability and the reflection and stuff. And we're coming on to reflection again later because that's one of, one of the things that you, you mentioned as well. So, so let's, let's, let's start kind of by giving everybody a little background on you. You've had this really varied career, so, so take us from kind of school to now. Give us a walk through your, your educational journey, if you like. Yeah.

So I would have started my educational journey in Ireland, but very quickly moved to Canada when I was a very small child. So my first experience in formal education— so, you know, education happens at home and in all sorts of places, but my first experience in school was in a French immersion in Sudbury in Canada. So I was there for about a year and a half, and when I came home to Ireland, I entered into junior infants, but in the dune of junior infants. And that had quite, I would say, a lasting effect in the sense that at that time, you know, Ireland has changed so much now, but at that time it was unusual that students would be coming and going at different times of the year. So I began as the new girl, and pretty much for the whole of primary school I was the new girl because that was just the way it was at the time. But having had that already, living in 2 countries, having my dad is Canadian, my mum is Irish, so having kind of 2 cultures already influencing, the world already was like a very big place to me and a very accessible place to me.

Yeah.

So that had quite a profound effect, I guess, the whole way along and something that as a child, you know, you stand out as different But in time, and you know, with kids a lot of the time you want to be like other people, but retrospectively I see the, you know, the diversity that is in every room and that, you know, we really need to embrace that because having those different viewpoints, having those different opinions is so, you know, brings richness to life.

I mean, a lot of time whether it's conscious or unconscious, people kind of hide that difference, don't they? Because perhaps people almost unconsciously want to be in, and they think diversity is being out.

Yeah.

I mean, I've kind of done a little bit of research on you, you know, before the podcast, and I'm, you know, I've trolled your LinkedIn account and your Instagram account and all that kind of stuff, and I hadn't picked up the the Canada thing at all. That's not— it might be there, but it certainly didn't jump out, you know. That's really interesting.

Yeah. And I think there's some things that, you know, when I think, you know, having worked with many kids as well, I see this, that like your childhood, you know, the beliefs that you begin to formulate in those early years, like that world is just the normal world that you know, and therefore that stuff becomes embedded and just becomes part of you. And, you where we hit conflict maybe is where we identify that difference as negative. But now looking back, I've had an awful lot of diversity in my life and I've seen how having those, I guess, experiences very early on in my life, and not just culturally, but my parents also were involved in intentional community, so I would have grown up around people with and without disabilities, people from all sorts of cultures and countries and languages, so I had this diversity as my upbringing, so it brought a great richness to my life, yes.

Oh, wonderful.

Yeah, and then from there I would have, you know, been searching, you know, been a questioning teenager really searching for how I can choose a purposeful path, and so I did my degree in media and took anthropology Really interesting mix. Yeah, it was. I remember at the time it was kind of around my desire to understand people, and I kind of had this idea of being like a documentary filmmaker where I would, yeah, just having access to people's stories, because I just think that everybody has a story, everybody has, you know, a really unique perspective on the world, and there's value in all of that. And I I guess I wanted to capture some of that. And from there, I started working for a magazine. I actually moved to Germany and worked for a magazine in Germany for a couple of years and had parts of that, you know, had a little bit of an opportunity to be able to tell people's stories. But for me, I wanted something that was face-to-face, that was interaction, that was, you know, being with the people that you're maybe sharing the information with. So in journalism, you're writing a piece, and because it was a magazine, it actually was, you know, like months later before it would get published and hit the shelves. And at that point, it was, you know, far from my mind, and I never knew if people read it, what people thought of it, how people interacted with it. So I was kind of You know, searching for a different path and then discovered permaculture.

Yeah. So I've never heard of this word. Well, I've heard of the word, but, you know, I hold my hand up. I have no idea what this means. You've done a 2-year course in this and, you know, this is important to you. So you're going to have to tell me about permaculture. Yeah.

So, and I would say that permaculture, maybe you're not familiar with the word, but you know, it would have originally been coined in kind of the late '70s by David Holmgren and Bill Mollison, Australians, but it has— what they were capturing was something that was already, had already been happening for thousands of years. So permaculture would have, you know, lots of people would say it's permanent agriculture, but so it's often used in the agricultural community, but it's also permanent culture, and that's kind of, you know, very much ties in with sustainability because something that is permanent or can be sustained is something that has that momentum where it's not going to run out, it's not finite.

Okay, so that's the fundamental behind it, that the permanence means that it's got to be sustainable, right?

Yeah, and that kind of comes from, you know, indigenous populations where they had found this rhythm of working on the planet and working with nature that was permanent, you know, sustainable for a really long time. You know, humans, we lived a very long time on this planet before fossil fuels, and there was a closeness to nature. So the terminology and the principles designed around it were from, you know, taken from, I guess, the history of humanity and all the knowledge that we'd learned along the way, but it was captured at a time when you know, there was quite a divergence in, especially in agriculture, where there was, you know, heavy use of chemicals and a lot of technology brought in to change the way that we produce food for people. So permaculture is kind of the conversation that's saying, okay, we've done this, but I don't think it's right. And now, you know, we're really seeing that, you know, choices that we made as a species you know, we weren't sustainable, weren't permanent, and we've got ourselves into, um, quite a mess, I would say, at this point. So—

Yeah, it's interesting that in recent, you know, weeks we've, we've seen 2 launches to space by Bezos and, um, Branson, haven't we? And, you know, the Bezos one particularly has, has attracted a lot of negative commentary in the media, you know, these, these millionaires are playing and spending all this money that we should be pushing back into, you know, the Earth and stuff. But, and, but I mean, his, his argument is, well, it's, it's opening up a wider frontier and we'll be able to now go out and mine the asteroids and, and stuff like that. But, but that's just extending the impermanent culture. It's extending the constant consuming of resources more.

And it's also putting the, putting the kind of the belief that something out there, that something intangible will save us, that's, you know, whereas actually what we already have is so beautiful and wonderful. We live on this amazing planet, you know, people are this amazing species, and why, you know, why do we need to look so far away? That is, you know, I would say, a fantasy for the large part in terms of, you know, these technological abilities are amazing, but if you look at like the amount of energy used, if you look at what was actually achieved, you know, the flight was less than 10 minutes. It's— yeah, it's something that I would talk to a number of close friends about where it's this conflict between like it's amazing what humans can do, but maybe we should be using that creativity and ingenuity for looking after what we do have already. Yeah, so it's—

It's a difficult tightrope, that one, isn't it?

Yeah, but a lot of it makes me feel disgusted, you know, it's like I see these headlines and I'm more hopeful at the fact that, you know, people are being critical of it, and especially I know that he made some comments about Amazon workers and consumers, and I think that did kind of trigger a lot of people. And, you know, sustainability isn't just about the planet, it's about its people, it's about its inhabitants, and, you know, that encompasses human rights and, you know, quality of life for people. And if you're getting something at the cost of the planet or at the cost of people on the planet, then that's not okay. And yeah. there's a lot of very kind of deep ethical issues that I think we need to have more conversations about, because I know I'm not the only one who's uncomfortable with this kind of polarity happening. You know, in the news we see these people heading to space, but at the same time we see, you know, horrendous floods in Europe, like the worst we've ever seen, people's lives devastated, and, you know, heat waves here in Ireland, you know, on a not as catastrophic level, but, you know, people are uncomfortable. It's something we haven't dealt with before, but definitely heat waves and fires in other parts of the world. And, you know, climate change is already happening, people are already being impacted, and we know that it's going to continue like this, it's going to get worse. So how do we spend our time? How do we spend our energy? And how do we collaborate? How do we come together to solve this? because there's no doubt that there's— the ability is there, you know.

Yes.

But yeah, how do we get people on board? And, you know, it kind of sounds like, oh, we need to convince people, but actually, you know, we all live on this planet and this is all we have, and it's all, you know, it's all any humans in history have ever had. So you know, we, we are so lucky, you know, it's, it's an amazing, um, fact that like we exist, that we're here. So, um, yeah, I— it would be great if we could, if we could preserve something of that.

Yeah, which, you know, seems to be a little bit in the balance at the moment, doesn't it? Is it so?

Definitely, yes. Yeah.

Okay, so I mean, this brings us kind of back to the career path So you're in Germany, you're working for a magazine, it's probably not lighting up your, you know, passions in a way that it needs to be. Is this when you got the career break? Is this the career break point or is that a bit later on?

Yeah, I guess, you know, I would have at different points called it career breaks, but now I've realized that that's actually just me following my curiosity, me moving from one thing to the next. I don't think I've ever taken a full like break, but what I've done is pivot. So at that point, you know, for many reasons, living in Germany, I moved back to Ireland, but also I had this interest and I'd actually come across permaculture in Kinsale in Ireland. They had a full-time permaculture course, which was, I think at the time, the only one in the world, so it attracted a very eclectic mix of people, and then I was really lucky to spend 2 years there. Amazing.

years in Kinsale, I mean, that's just heaven, isn't it?

Absolutely, yes. It was just, you know, I really see it as a very rich and defining point of my life. Like, many of my close friends I would have met during that time, and that still would have, you know, a very strong influence on me, on decisions that I make, and things that I learned both in terms of sustainability but also in terms of education. during that time would have influenced my decision then to train as a teacher.

What about education? Because I mean, was it the way the course was run? Was it principles they used? Or what led you into kind of thinking about education more formally then?

Yeah, I guess the 2 drivers. So one was that like I was learning this information that I just felt was so vital that everybody know this, you know. It was climate science, it was science about the soil, it was science And then it was also like looking at communities and societies and how we work together. And as I mentioned, like, the people in that course were very eclectic, really talented group of people who had come to this course from, you know, all ages, all walks of life. And I think during that course, at different times, we were talking about education, and I would have been someone who was, you know, a success of the education system, which I have very, you know, strong feelings about in terms of, you know, why is success, but there were people there who would have been, from certain points, you know, from certain perspectives, considered failures of the education system, and yet they were these, you know, intelligent and creative, amazing individuals, and I realized that there was something really broken. It wasn't that these people had failed the education system, it was that the education system had failed them.

Yeah.

And in retrospect, I think that it, you know, in ways it also— like, I kind of glided through. Like, I found education easy. I didn't meet any challenges. But at the same time, it wasn't like— I wasn't somebody who, like, loved being in school. Like, I never thought, you know, this is the perfect way, this is how I want to spend all my time. But I do believe that education is such a powerful tool and it has transformed the power dynamics in the world, so, and therefore, like, everybody has the right to access it and everybody should be able to be involved. So that was like my kind of my thoughts that were developing around education at that time were around like that the education system could be better and also that this environmental knowledge, this knowledge about the planet and where we're headed and, you know, our resources running out and the damage that's being done. Like, I also wanted to share that information and I knew that education is such a powerful way of changing the way that we move in the world, changing the way that we think about the world. So I trained, yeah.

Why train then for primary School teaching? Because I mean, teaching a 4-year-old or a 5-year-old, is that going to change the world? Wouldn't you be better training as an adult educator?

So it's an interesting one because at the time, you know, teaching— my mother had been a teacher at a period of my childhood, and I had— she was a secondary school teacher, and at some point I had, you know, we want to be what we see, so I had thought, yes, I'll do teaching. And I had done some work with teenagers, and I'd always thought that I would be a secondary school teacher, and it was what subject would I teach. But I think even when I was studying permaculture, and maybe around that time I had begun, you know, friends started having children and I started meeting children, and I just saw how formative, and even for me, how formative those first few years of life are, how that's really where we create our beliefs about the world and you know, the evidence is there in terms of like psychology and child development that that is when you're kind of— your personality, everything is kind of laid down. And, you know, you come with some of it, this whole nature-nurture argument, like, you know, these strong personalities exist right from the get-go, but the way that they formulate belief systems about the world happens very early. So working with children is quite— at that time I was thinking, oh, you know, I'll be able to have the biggest impact, but what I've also learned is that working with children is that they— that's when they actually can have the biggest impact on me in terms of my learning. And that, you know, when children come into school, they're not, you know, they haven't been institutionalized yet.

Yes.

You know, They're free beings. They come in like full of ideas and creativity and—

And we beat the shit out of them. Yeah, I mean, we put them in boxes and code them.

Yeah, when I was studying permaculture, I started— or maybe it was even before— I started watching a lot of TED Talks. And I know other people on your podcast have talked about Ken Robinson, Sir Ken Robinson, and he had a massive influence on me. So he has His TED Talk is Schools Kill Creativity.

Yes.

And, you know, I think when we go into anything, we are really idealistic about it, and I did think, right, well, if that's happening, then I want to go in there and stop that from happening. But as we know, these are much bigger— yeah, it's very hard to change a system. But at the same time, what's happening within the system, there are so many positives. And, you know, working with my students, working with a class of children, and at times I worked as a learning support teacher, so I would have been working one-on-one or with small groups, and seeing the impact that you can have on somebody's life and seeing, you know, and that goes both ways.

Yes.

You establish a relationship with a child or with their family or with my colleagues and you know, I see myself as a constant student, you know, lifelong learner, and, you know, my best teachers have been my students and people that I've come across. So, it's, you know, really was a privilege to be able to go into primary school teaching and absolutely loved my job and, you know, had my strong opinions about ways that it could evolve and change, but You know, it is magic to be in a room with 30 children and to see what happens and to be able to like share information about the world with them that just, you know, the world is an amazing place and people are amazing and that's, you know, if we can hold on to that then yeah, that's, it's magic, like I really feel that.

And the passion comes through, I mean it's quite clear that the passion comes through when you're talking about it, you light up. which is just wonderful. So what took you out of the classroom then?

I think there is a sense of urgency around climate change, but also we're in a climate emergency, we have a biodiversity crisis, we have a waste crisis, and all of that is just— yeah, I feel an urgency around it. And I think also while I was working in primary schools, I was also doing a bit of work around mental health and would have worked very closely with a colleague around wellness. And, you know, there was reports coming out about, you know, really shocking statistics about mental health in children and happening at a younger and younger and younger age.

Yes.

And when, you know, I guess I'm a big picture thinker, and when I would zoom out, I would see, okay, we have these massive environmental crises and we also have mental health crises, and of course we do because if our planet isn't well and thriving then how can the beings on it be well and thriving? So I didn't see them as separate, I see them so interlinked and if I can put my energy into, you know, creating you know, creating a story maybe that allows us to move in the direction of a healthier planet and healthier people, then that can be hopefully, you know, impactful. It's an interesting one because I have left primary teaching and yet I still very much see myself as a primary teacher and, you know, I took a career break and that has led me in a different direction.

Yes.

It was never the intention to leave and be done. So what I am doing, you know, my work is still— and I'm in schools a lot, you know, up until a couple of weeks ago I would have been in a classroom, so it's still very much where I see my work.

Yeah.

But the urgency around climate change and trying to bring that into the education space has been where I'm attempting to navigate. But There's challenges to that.

Oh yeah, and I mean, one of which would be scale, but I mean, to some extent you start to address that with Plastic Free for Kids. I mean, this is a nice segue into that. So tell us about this project, tell us, you know, what it is and where it went and stuff, because it's a really interesting project.

Yeah, so a couple of months into my career break, I saw this ad. Actually, a friend of mine sent it to me, that this company Change by Degrees, they were a startup and they were looking for somebody to do workshops in schools and it was workshops around going plastic-free and I thought this is perfect for me because I have the school experience and my passion is in environmentalism, so this was bringing the two together. So we started with funding for 50 schools in Tipperary and I would have gone into schools and done workshops and then the following year we got funding for 100 schools in Cork. So I had, you know, we had massive demand that year. There was actually quite a shift, which was interesting. In 2019, we were trying to get schools to sign up, and then by 2020, there had been a shift, and schools, you know, we put out the call and the places were filled in a matter of days.

Wow.

But that was early 2020. So I had visited, I think it was 32 schools. I was actually in a school when the announcement came that schools were closing.

Yeah, I remember.

On that Thursday. Yeah, and I was in one school and due to go to another school, and I went to the other school and I said, look, I know that you are dealing with, you know, the fact now that you're— when you go home today, you won't be here tomorrow. So I said, I'm very happy to do the workshops, I'll take your class, and you can, you know, focus on getting ready kind of for this shutdown. And at that time, it was interesting because it was coming up to Easter and we knew that schools would be closed until after Easter. And in our minds, when I talked to Tara and Madeline, who are at Changed by Degrees, we thought, oh, we'd still have time after to complete the workshops.

We didn't realize that the sky was actually falling at the time.

Yeah, so within a couple of weeks though, it did become clear, and then we had to do a complete pivot and think about— because we had the funding secured and we already had schools, so we were like, how can we do this? So, we decided to do this online series. And in the times that we're in, it's not something, you know, I kind of historically had this degree in media, had had—

Journalist, no problem.

Yeah, but what's amazing is that the technology had changed so much. Like, when I was in university, we were renting cameras, and we were uploading, and, you know, there was a lot of specialized equipment. And when I made this series, I used my phone, I used my laptop, I used used like the software that comes with the laptop. And yeah, had lots of help to pull it all together. But I did also see that in that time, you know, being put under kind of that time pressure and also that, you know, all these existential questions coming into mind just kind of forced me to be clear. And, you know, I believed that I could have— could put something together. that could be, you know, potentially impactful. We didn't know where the world was going at that time, but, you know, climate change was and still is a much, much bigger issue than the pandemic. So it was how to just continue with spreading that message, and it actually became, rather than me speaking to one class of kids or a school at a time, it was on it's online and having people sign up from all over the world because there's an appetite out there and people are looking for how to— and, you know, plastic-free is an avenue, is a way that people can do their part. But the program, I would hope, allows children and their families and their teachers to begin to not only begin to do their bit, but to see their power and their voice, you know, the influence that they can have. So within this series, we really take it from like individual actions, to then connecting to your community, to then engaging with politicians, to engaging with, you know, big business.

Yes.

And how, you know, an individual can have that impact, but also when a lot of individuals come together, we can have You know, a very big impact. So yeah.

And I, I mean, I watched a few of the episodes, and, and, you know, having now heard your, your background story, if you like, of all the different things and skills that you've built up over the years and stuff, you, you brought all of them into that. You know, this— the, the script is fabulous. It's clear, but it's very, very, you know, focused, and it walks you through a journey. You're, you're a You're a natural storyteller, but you get all the facts across, and you got it across in a way that, you know, was aimed at that younger audience and the comprehension level, but made it completely comprehensible. And I mean, I was listening to this and thinking, golly, this is really good, you know. You know, no matter that it's kind of shot in your, you know, your box room kind of pointing a webcam at your face. The kind of production values don't matter, do they? It's the message, the impact that the message has, and it was really, really well put together. So I mean, I'm not surprised you won an award for it because it's a very impressive piece of work.

Thank you very much. Yeah, and I think also like there's parts of it that, you know, I would do differently. I would—

Of course there are. You never do anything perfectly the first time, do you? Or the second time.

But what it also did was it allowed me to see that, you know, anybody can do this. It's, you know, and actually children who are, as some people say, digital natives, you know, they can put things like this together.

Yes.

You know, we've really, from the time that I studied media where it was, you know, a bit more specialized and certain people had access to equipment and, you know, there was still an unequal distribution of wealth and power in the terms of media, now we can see how, you know, people having a camera in their hands has, you know, changed everything.

Yeah.

We can see, you know, we're able to see now on the streets, in countries, what is happening on the ground. We don't need it to be filtered through journalists and newspapers, and it's a really interesting way to engage with the world, because it can be totally overwhelming. You're getting information coming in that hasn't been edited, you know, down for you, hasn't been packaged, and we're getting that kind of live stream from people's homes and streets, and from conflict, and from, you know, really challenging situations. But there's, yeah, it's really interesting in terms of what we can do creatively, how we can share information with each other. And what I had I guess there's been a shift in terms of when I left journalism, I wanted to have that one-to-one interaction.

Yeah.

And now I see, okay, I want to have that one-to-one interaction, we can never replace that, it is the best connection, but we are under time pressure. And if I can share, even if a teacher watched my series and replicated that exactly with their class, you know, or interpreted it in their way, put it in their own words, but that they can see how it can just be packaged. You know, we don't need everybody trying to start from scratch.

Yes.

We have this global network, you know, we have the technology, we have the ability to just share information, to share tools and access. And yeah, it's exciting to see how it's grown. You know, it hasn't been like inundated with demand, but it has had these pockets of, you know, people contacting me from Uganda and India and all over Europe. And, you know, it's really interesting to see that, you know, something that I created in my back garden effectively is then being interacted with.

So, I mean, your heart must just sing when that email from Uganda comes in or somewhere like that, because you've reached somebody halfway across the planet, who you would never have met otherwise.

And I feel humbled, and I feel also that what I have produced is probably, you know, I don't know how it fits. You know, what I want is that people take it and then be able to manipulate it for their own situation, because, you know, as much as I would love to have an insight into what life is like in Uganda, I've never been there, I don't know people from there, and And there's so— like most of the world, I'm like that about. So I think rather than trying to have a solution that fits everybody, I want to spark some ideas that people can then take and make their own.

Yeah.

And there is some commonalities because especially in terms of big business, you know, global corporations that are more powerful than governments, we are all trying to engage with how do we You know, how can this— how can we create change when the power is structured like that?

Yeah, I love this focus that you've got. And I mean, I wrote down the question on my little list after tell us about Plastic Free for Kids, talks to what you've just said. So if other educators wanted to produce something like Plastic Free for Kids, okay, Give us some tips, give us some ideas about how you might put a project like that together, and what you, you know, what did you learn that you perhaps shouldn't do? What are the things that you wish you'd known at the beginning of that project that you could tell us now, if you like, if we were going to start something like that?

Yeah, it's a good question, and I think what each, you know, for any individual who wants to do something, you need to you need to do something that you care about, that you're passionate about. And sometimes that needs a little bit of exploration because you might not realize, you know, for instance, you might not realize how passionate you are about the trees in your park until somebody comes along and tries to cut them down. You know, it's something that's there that gives you life, but you might not have like reflected on that or identified that. You know, it is when things are no longer accessible to us that we feel that loss.

Yeah.

So, but I do know that so many teachers are so conscious about what is happening, but in terms of climate change, it's overwhelming. And how do we begin to talk to our students about such challenging topics? So I'm always focusing on like what we can do, what are our circles of influence. So a teacher needs to start by seeing what they care about, and that might be, you know, waste, it might be biodiversity, it might be, you know, gardening, it might be dependent on their locality. It also could be social justice issues, which are so connected. And then from there, work with, you know, is this— is the children in your class that you're working with? Is it your staff that you want to influence? That's an area that I—

Know your audience, kind of.

Yeah, know your audience. And I think the structure that I would have put into the plastic-free episodes where It begins with the individual and then it begins to move outward as you build confidence. So, you know, with a class of kids, start by planting those seeds on the windowsill, maybe then decide to, you know, change some of the school grounds into a garden, maybe then get parents involved, grandparents involved, you know, the community, create a community space, and then, you know, see how that can be connected in. How can you connect in with maybe local supermarkets or who will sponsor you, and who, you know, where can you get your seed, who else is doing this, so then begin to connect. Is there other school gardens?

Yes.

You know, build it outward, connect with what's happening elsewhere in Ireland and then elsewhere in the world, and, you know, it's through relationship, so like whatever we're doing, yes, we're having an influence on the planet and on biodiversity, but from so much that I've read around these kind of environmental movements and initiatives, when you ask people, you know, why did you get involved? What did you love most about it? It's the people I met, the connections I made, the, you know, the life that I got from being involved with it, the joy that I got from feeling like I was making a difference but with other people, you know. If you go and plant trees with a group of people, like, it's having that community. So that's like, I would talk a lot about how we need we need to be connected to other people who care about the things that we care about, who are like-minded, and that that can also then nourish us to engage with people who maybe don't care about the things that we care about. But yeah, that, you know, every person has power and has influence, and that might just be on the person next to them, but that we, you know, feel like we are all powerful agents on this planet, that we can affect change, and not just change for humans but for other species. And working with kids, that's, you know, that's a really, you know, kids are much more connected to nature, to trees, to flowers, to animals, to, you know, like the amount of knowledge that a child can have about, you know, the specifics on jellyfish or sharks, or, you know, they have this capacity to just hold all this knowledge of so that they are fascinated with, and I want them to hold on to that, you know. It's— the planet is, yeah, an amazing home, and if we love it, then we will look after it. And yeah, if children love the planet, if we all love the planet, we will look after it. So it's just re-establishing those connections and retelling that story to ourselves that actually You know, my home feels like it's this building, but actually, uh, the air that I breathe, the water that I drink, the food that I eat comes from, from outside of me. And yeah, yeah. I love it.

I mean, I love that circles kind of analogy that you, you describe because, I mean, that's a really usable framework, isn't it? Mental framework for, for any teacher. To think about. So start small, start local, and then just build out one step at a time and make connections and forge new relationships and stuff and see what happens.

Yeah. And it is just that following the curiosity and doing what, you know, I would say when I was teaching, you as a teacher, you are overwhelmed with curriculum and Yes. You know, necessary bits that you have to do, and teachers feel very time poor in terms of what they actually want to spend their time doing.

Yes.

And so it can feel like, you know, and I would say maybe even when I was in primary school, like when we went for a nature walk, it was kind of like last thing on a Friday, you know, when everything else was tied up, we'd go out for a nature walk. But if you can If you begin in your teaching practice, in, you know, not just with children, with any age group, if you begin to try things where you are learning outdoors, where you are, and not just learning about the outdoors outdoors, but just learning outdoors, you will begin to see how much learning is actually happening. So it's not just sitting at a desk with a book reading about trees, it's kids out there looking at the bark, looking at the texture, looking at the patterns, looking at the, you know, way the wind interacts with the leaves and, you know, the amount of— and then they're talking to the other kids about that and the amount of, you know, English that's happening, maths in terms of like spatial recognition, and, you know, there is so much learning that's happening. You know, humans evolved for thousands of years without having a textbook.

Yes.

And, you know, built this amazing knowledge base. So So it's strange that we have decided that, and it's, you know, I know it's not all sitting in the classroom with textbooks, there's, you know, a lot of very active learning happening, but most of it still is happening indoors. So my challenge definitely for teachers is to take it outdoors, and that might be that you take, you know, the storybook outdoors and you do storytime outside. It doesn't have to be—

But how much time will they remember The one sitting in the classroom or the one sitting out under the trees one day, kind of. Yeah.

Exactly. And, you know, don't just make it that one memorable experience. Like, just do it as a regular thing. You know, as adults, as humans, like, when we have free time, we want to go— especially now in this lovely weather— we want to go to the beach, we want to go hiking, you know, we want just to sit in the garden. And, you know, we know, even if we don't say it out loud, there's part of our body that just knows that being outdoors is good for the soul, it's good for the mind, it's, you know, it just calms us. And I think that we have the right to that.

Yeah.

You know, I'm very conscious that there's people on our planet who live in literal concrete jungles, and for decades people have talked about, you know, giving children access to nature, and for some children that means putting them on a bus and driving them out to the countryside.

This isn't a cow, this is a horse.

Yeah, yeah, and in Ireland, I think, you know, we are very lucky. We could have a lot more, you know, a lot more trees. We have a very low coverage of trees. We could have, but, you know, we have access to nature for the most part. Kids have been to the beach, they know what a tree is, and like that ecological literacy knowledge is probably a lot less than what our parents and grandparents had, Even like as a child, we played freely outside, and I know very few kids who do that now. Very few. And there's, yeah, there's definitely— we need to really reconsider the impacts of that because it's not just on those individual children, but it is how we are valuing, how we are sharing what we are valuing. So if we don't, as educators, put value on kids having time outdoors, if we don't see how valuable that is and not just an extra add-on that we do on Friday afternoons, if we say that like this is actually an integral part of our practice to establish a positive relationship with our planet, then, you know, we will get ourselves into even more trouble. But it's a very easy thing to do, you know, as a teacher you just You just go, okay, we're going outside. We're— and even if that means we're taking our books and we're going outside, why not?

Why not?

You know?

So, uh, yeah, this puts me in mind of some kind of action that my children's school did a few years ago. I'm thinking 2 or 3 years ago, but I mean, knowing me, it's probably 5 or 6 years ago now. But they built an outdoor classroom.

Amazing.

They hired this amazing guy, Sonny, who I think is based in Waterford. He's a stonemason and he does all All wonderful stuff. And he came and he built this outdoor classroom with curved seats made of stone and stuff. And the children had a competition in school to design the tops of all the seats—

Amazing.

—using mosaic and stuff. And he laid all these beautiful mosaics into the top of the stone. So I'll put some photos maybe up when we kind of have the video so people can see this. But I mean, that's an example of a school actually going there, doing something, you know, and they— I think they got some funding for it. Um, but I mean, that is used every day.

Yeah.

And Danny and April come home and, you know, they say, oh yeah, we had our class outside today.

Yeah. And they were involved in the whole process. And they were involved in the whole process.

It was— it's just— I, I just thought that was so good when the school did that. And I mean, I, I teach, you know, photography Yeah. And so many people come to me and say, you know, yeah, right, right, you know, can we— can I come and have some lessons? And, and they're thinking we're going to sit at the kitchen table and talk about photography. And I say, yeah, yeah, right, so where are we going? And they say, what do you mean? And I said, well, you don't learn about photography at the kitchen table, or you can learn about bits of photography, but, but let's go out. Let's go down to the river and see whether we can find a heron. You know, and shoot it because you're gonna learn far more about photography out there with the camera and, you know, getting the settings right and trying different things than you ever will watching a YouTube video or even sitting with me at a kitchen table.

Exactly, it's the learn by doing, you know, it's—

Isn't it? Yes.

You know, when I was making the Plastic Free for Kids series, like so many times I just, you know, I had a goal and I had to go, okay, how do I do that? And I watched so many YouTube tutorials, I had to call up people and, you know, find out information. But if we gave kids those same tasks, and, you know, a lot of kind of the shift in education is toward that, is toward these project-based learning.

Yes.

And if somebody has an end goal and then they have to figure it out along the way, then that's so much more powerful.

And it also is, you know, it upskills at a rate that we just can't replicate by taking one thing at a time and going through things in an order that we think And it means that they collaborate because they're working in teams and they're bouncing ideas off each other and they're arguing, which means they're processing mentally in different ways and all kinds of stuff.

Exactly, yeah, yeah. There's just so much, like, within education, the opportunities are endless and it's just about harnessing that and not getting worn out and bogged down and disillusioned and you know, institutionalized and stuck because I see that happening. As you know, it was very— I was very privileged to be able to, when I was doing the workshops, to walk into hundreds of schools and to see hundreds of classrooms and to see, you know, meet loads of teachers and see all the amazing stuff that's going on and also then to see some of the places where there's definitely room for a change. and for new energy. And, you know, I would be really passionate about the fact that if a teacher loves their job, if a teacher loves what they're doing, then that just is, you know, then they are an amazing teacher. And if we look at the profession and see, you know, why aren't teachers happy? Because teachers go into this job, you know, intentionally.

Yeah.

what happens, you know, schools kill creativity. Is it— it's not just for the children, maybe it's, you know, maybe across the board.

And, um, but you refresh yourself, don't you? I mean, you consciously, you know, you said earlier on you're a lifelong learner and you consciously put yourself on new courses and do CPD. I mean, you've just done the diploma in sustainability with the Innovation Academy and Eileen Diskin, and And that's presumably led you to the Innovation Academy then, because at some point you must have thought, oh, this is all right. I wouldn't mind being a part of this. So, I mean, talk about that kind of—

Absolutely. Like, that's the one, I guess, whatever belief I laid down very early in my life was that I loved learning. And I do think that like at times in school, it wasn't happening at the rate or in the direction maybe that I wanted. So therefore, I had, I guess I had the privilege in ways that I was able to go, okay, outside of school, what am I interested in and what will I go after? And, you know, I loved university, I loved being able to like have those really deep conversations on very particular topics and after university, I wanted that, I wanted more of that. So it's just been natural for me that I would keep learning and that anything that I love, I want to share. So that's where my yoga teacher training will come from, was that I just— yoga had gifted me so much in my life and I wanted to delve deeper into the practice and then also have the opportunity to share that with others. But when I came to— so last year signing up for Design Thinking for Sustainability, and in ways I can say that I came a little bit skeptical to it at this point. you know, I've worked in the area of sustainability for a long time and have a lot of passion around it, but in the world that we operate in, a piece of paper is sometimes necessary to open doors. So I very much was doing it from, okay, I need some kind of piece of paper that says I'm qualified in sustainability and that will open more doors for me. What I wasn't prepared for was the absolutely, you know, transformative learning experience And I can say that I've been really lucky that actually I've chosen a lot of those along my way.

Yes.

But I just wasn't— I don't know why, but I just wasn't expecting it in this particular scenario. But of course, like, from the first hour being online, you realize, okay, this is— there's something really special here. And so much of it just Yeah, it just delighted me that this kind of learning was happening in formal third-level education because I just—

It was— I love the fact that it was a surprise too.

It was a surprise and, you know, that it was intentionally led that way by the facilitators, it's designed that way. And, you know, my experience in university was very rich but it was because of the conversations and all the stuff that was happening outside. But for the actual transferring of knowledge, I was sitting in lecture halls, sometimes with hundreds of other people, and listening to somebody speak who didn't know my name and who would never have a one-to-one conversation with me. Whereas in the Innovation Academy, it is like, it's based on that. And, you know, we're on this learning journey together, we get to know each other, there's a sense of community built. And And, you know, everybody is learning and it's really well facilitated. And it just, yeah, it was such a wonderful experience.

There's no lecturers in the Innovation Academy. You're facilitated. And I mean, it's just a word, but it's not just a word, is it? It's a mindset. It's an ethos.

Absolutely. And it is that shift from, you know, that there is somebody that has the knowledge that will give it to you. It's not, you know, I know, like even this thing around getting an education or receiving an education. Like, it's not— it isn't a one-way transaction. And I think that we have done a disservice to an awful lot of students by not allowing them to make those choices in their education. You know, we have decided what you are going to learn and we are going to deliver it in this way. And, you know, kids sit there and, you know, are told to sit there and be quiet and listen. And that's, you know, if you can shift that and ask kids what you want to learn, and that's what's happening now in this, in the Innovation Academy. It's, you know, person-led, so student-led. So yes, we have a plan. Yes, there is, you know, objectives, learning objectives, but how we do it is constantly being, you know, designed. it's happening as we are going, as we are seeing what people want, what people, you know, how people are navigating the information that's being shared. And, you know, it's very much the learner is in charge of their own learning. And if they haven't yet been to this point, like if they have been through a very conventional education process where they have very much been a kind of a passive recipient, then this forces them to go, okay, actually, do I want to do this? How do I want to do this? Oh, I get to use these skills. Oh, they're giving me complete freedom to present this in any way I want. What way do I want to do that? And that forces people to go internal and to pull out the— you know, challenges people to identify their own values, their own skills, their own strengths. in that process values that, you know, those gifts from this diversity of people. So I think it is a real empowering experience to have, yeah, an education experience where that happens. It's just, you know, because you never want to go back then. You never want to sit in a lecture again and not be able to have a dialogue and not be able to be creative. No.

And yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, my alarm's just gone off, so we're in our last kind of 5 minutes or so. So there's a couple of little things just to wrap up then, because this has just been wonderful. I mean, it's been so rich. Your plus one you've already given us, so design time outdoors.

Yeah.

But one of the books you gave us, I mean, Ken Robinson, other people have mentioned him, and everybody kind of knows Ken is Ken, or was Ken. But Richard Louv, talk about Last Child in the Woods because I don't know that book and it's one of your books.

So I think it was published in 2005 and a lot of the research done on it would have been from, you know, before that, from the '90s and '80s, and it really talks about nature deficit disorder. So this is where children are not accessing nature, and the implications that that has on child development, and then I would say the implications that that has on society. And he writes about that in the book as well, is how, you know, how do we create stewards in the future, you know, how do we, how will we have people who know and want to look after the planet if they have never had direct experience with nature. And so, and I know in Ireland, like within mainstream schools, there is even this shift, like forest schools have begun to gain traction. And I know lots of teachers who have done the forest school training and who have designed this into their school.

You must send me a link. I've never heard of forest schools, but put a link in.

Yeah, and I know, you know, I know lots of people who run summer camps and Easter camps outside of school, and they, you know, they are the experts. They have been working with children and nature for years.

Yeah, I mean, when I was on my diploma course with the Innovation Academy, Emma was on it, and she runs Branch Out in the woods in Wicklow.

Okay, amazing.

One of those— she does, you know, classes for kids, you know, from schools go out and spend a day mapping rivers and stuff and having an amazing time.

And learning about, you know, because the other big thing that I have a belief around is that like everybody wants to belong. And where we find that sense of belonging, is it with our family? And if— is it in our community? But if we can feel that we belong to the planet, that we belong in in this time, in this space, then having that sense of belonging allows, you know, you then to be a creator, to be, you know, active participant of the world. But having those, you know, for children to have— and I think in the past, I'm thinking of my grandmother here who died when I was very young, but who my mother would often say her influence, you know, comes out through me. She was very involved in the Girl Guides. She would have been head of Girl Guides in Ireland, but, you know, children had those Girl Guides, Scouts, you know, out in nature experiences, part of a club, you know, part of exploring and camping. And, you know, humans lived outdoors for thousands of years, and now it's like, oh my God, like, have to get in a tent, or, you know, the idea of sleeping outside. Most, many people have never slept outside.

You know, we put a tent up in the garden last week and, and the, um, the kids slept outside.

Amazing.

And they loved it. They absolutely loved it. So I mean, your, your final call to action that you wrote down was around building your own connections to a community. Yeah, this is what you're talking about, isn't it? So find your, find your tribe. Yeah. And, or create your own if you haven't got one.

And listen to the people in your life who believe in you, because I've been so lucky to have a few people who've popped up along the way who've seen something that, you know, they've identified for me from the outside and that, you know, they've allowed me to nurture. And, you know, even I have classmates from the course that I just did who would have been, you know, such massive influences in how I believe I can interact with the world, do you know? So it's constantly happening, and I think, you know, find those people. If you don't have people like that in your life, find those people and build connections wherever you can, because what is certain is that we are facing into uncertain times, and we don't know, you know, we cannot prepare for what will come. But if you have connections with people, and if you are, if you, you know, believe in yourself, as cheesy as that sounds, but like if you have that agency and you can make connections, and if we can build connections with people who don't have connections, you know, I also feel a sense of responsibility because, and that would be something very much out of a very privileged upbringing in a very privileged part of the world is that, you know, I am able to go on this journey because of the way that the planet is organized and it's not a fair organization, you know, it's not organized fairly.

No.

I'd just come back to permaculture and permaculture has principles but it also has ethics and when I discovered the ethics of permaculture, that was where I, like, I know that I can return to them. So there's 3 ethics and they are earth care, people care, and fair share.

Right.

And they are so connected and if, you know, if I can move in that direction, I need people who, you know, who I can connect to, who— and I want people to be connected So, but there are so many people, yeah, who don't have those opportunities. So we need to, you know, reach out and use our voices, use our power to lift them up, to create a fairer world where hopefully we can continue to thrive for many generations.

I'm so glad I reached out to you the other day in that meeting, because that was the first time we'd actually kind of seen each other, wasn't it, on that meeting and stuff like that. And I mean, it is a difficult thing to do, isn't it? To kind of reach out to somebody that you don't know and say, you know, hi, can we chat or can we talk or whatever?

And I wasn't expecting that, I guess, immediate invitation, but I'm so happy to have made the connection. And also just to, you know, I would say Innovation Academy is all about taking risks. And, you know, this for me is not my comfort zone, but I am, you know, delighted. You know, I'm passionate about what I speak about. And I'm fascinated.

And I mean, one of my— one of the biggest benefits, I suppose, from a personal perspective of doing this, this little project I'm doing with the podcast is I get to talk to amazing people. So I've, I've met a new amazing person. And I mean, I come off— when I've come off one of these calls, which is almost every call, and I'm fizzing, I'm buzzing, I'm, I'm like energized. Yeah. And I mean, you've done that this hour. You've energized me, you know, and you're sitting, what, down in Cork, you know, looking at a Zoom, and I've got a little 2-inch screen in front of me with your face on. And yet I'm finishing up this call and I'm feeling energized and I'm feeling I want to go off and find out more and, you know, read more and stuff. I mean, that's amazing. That's what it's about.

And what's so amazing is that you are having these conversations and you are capturing them and you are sharing them with other people because I think that, you know, maybe in the education space we do have a lot of like chat with colleagues and, you know, formalized chat, but yeah, being able to hear different perspectives and, you know, I've listened to a lot of them and hearing people at all different facets of education and having this—

I was so pleased that you came on because, I mean, we hadn't got got sustainability really in that mix, which is, you know, and you've certainly filled that, filled that gap to some extent beautifully. So thank you so much.

Yeah, you're very welcome. And I would say that a lot of the other conversations I've heard, even though they weren't labeled as sustainability, the little, you know, people are working in directions that are creating a better future. And that is, that's, that is sustainability. We create a better future that's sustainable for everybody.

Yes. Well, that's, that's a good place to finish. So, Anne, thank you so much for coming on today.

Thank you so much, Joe. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you.