Video Episode 12 - Alan Morgan on facilitation and mindset change

Hi, my name's Joe Houghton, and this is the +1 Podcast. And today, I've got Alan Morgan with us. Alan is an educator with a background in business. And I first ran into Alan, and he's the program lead on the Diploma in Creativity and Innovation for Education at the UCD Innovation Academy. And I think we first ran into each other— was it middle of last year? I think, wasn't it? 2020. And that journey has led me to create this podcast as part of my fellowship with the Innovation Academy. I thought I was busy, but Alan just never stops. He, following a multinational career in industry, he now runs programs for the Innovation Academy. He's partway through a doctorate in education in Swansea in Wales. Yep. He has a professional network which is just one of the most diverse that I've ever come across. I'm very envious of the network that Alan seems to have, certainly in the education space, and he still manages to fit in sport and cycling and goodness knows what else. You describe yourself, Alan, in that pre-interview questionnaire As open and entrepreneurial. So that sounds like a good place to start today, I think. Does your commercial experience play to that entrepreneurial side, or is this something that you've come to more in the education space?

Oh yeah, thanks, Joe. Great to be here and really great to be involved in this project you're doing, which is just— really think it's groundbreaking. And thanks, Joe. Yeah, I mean, I never saw myself as entrepreneurial before until I suppose fully realized in hindsight, looking back on what I did, particularly when I started off my father's business many, many moons ago. And I suppose, like anyone who's involved in a family business, my father ran a very small wholesale distribution operation and, you know, supplying all the corner shops in Ireland with toys and stationery and all the bits and bobs that you'd find in a corner shop in those days, you know. And from a very early age, and I mean like a very early age, 8, 9 years of age, I was sweeping the warehouse floor and, you know, eventually moving up to packing the van and, you know, packing customers' vans and then, you know, taking customers' orders. And then as I was able to drive, delivering those orders. And, you know, my dad was quite entrepreneurial and he— very entrepreneurial, you know, and, you know, you only kind of like, you don't realize these things when you're in it, you know, you just do it like, and that's it. It's part of the gig, you know. And then when I went off to do my own thing, left my dad's business kind of when I was about 22 or 23, And I moved over to a position as a sales representative on the road. And, you know, it was the hardest job I've ever done. And it really made you be entrepreneurial in your thinking and in your approach to how you approach your day, notwithstanding your customers and so on. You know, and that led me then to move— I was 3 years in that role and led me to a role in Germany then working for the same company. They had a network of companies across the world, one of which was in Dublin and one of which was in Europe, in Nuremberg in Germany. And when I went to Germany, I stayed there for 3 years, you know, I realized that actually what I'm doing is really, you know, at the time it was groundbreaking because, you know, not a lot of people my age were doing that kind of thing. They were moving around and so on, but actually to move into a new country, a new language, and to, you know, to a greater extent, a new life. I had to find my own apartment, I had to find, go and buy my own food, I had to go and buy cutlery, knives and forks. Is that entrepreneurial? You know, I think it is. You know, and I think that concept of how you approach life, and I always say, looking back to my time in Germany, my time in Germany, I think equates as almost one of the most important 3 years of my life because I left Ireland and I could barely boil an egg, and I came back to Ireland with, you know, with a whole load of skills that I would have never ever gained in that time, you know.

Wow.

Yeah, so I think, you know, and I think it's really interesting to understand the difference between entrepreneurial and intrapreneurial concepts, you know, and I think that's a lot of things, times people don't equate that, you know. So when I moved into, you know, came back to Ireland from Germany in 1993, and I moved into a, you know, fairly large wholesale distribution company and became sales and purchasing director, you know, because I've— as you well know, Joe, titles mean nothing. It's, you know, you work harder with those titles. So, but that concept of intrapreneurialism, you know, being entrepreneurial within a corporate environment, I think is something— and it's something I've researched a lot. And there's some good writing on it as well. And the impact of entrepreneurialism, I think, is probably not widely spoken about.

For those people that are listening to this that are thinking, well, what is the difference? Or what do each of those actually mean? Just give us a quick definition for each.

Yeah, great. Yeah, good question, Joe. So, I mean, in the greater sense of— in the greater, broader scheme of things, people talk about the entrepreneur, and the entrepreneur is kind of that person who has an idea, you know, and, and, you know, goes off, runs that idea, has, you know, like, is able to, um, deal with risk and is not afraid of failure, probably fails umpteen times, uh, probably loses money umpteen times, and eventually they will, uh, hit upon something and, and they will, you know, be it a product or a service, you know. Entrepreneurialism is the exact same thing within the boundaries of the organization you work for.

Okay.

So, you know, everyone, you know, when I speak a lot about entrepreneurial thinking in particular, and I might come back to that in a minute, is like, you know, people talk about, you know, oh yeah, I know Richard Branson or Bill Gates, those kind of big entrepreneurs and so on and so forth. But, and that's grand, you know, and that's all okay, and there's some good learnings from that. But I think what's really important is, you know, that there's entrepreneurs within organizations that never get recognition. When I say organizations, I mean government organizations. I mean, look at a lot of the departments in the Irish government in the last couple years. They've developed this whole concept of innovation within their departments, and that's normally championed by an entrepreneurial-type person within the organization, within that department. So I think that's really interesting to to, in the first instance, acknowledge that, and in the second instance, I think maybe learn from it and see how we can take it, you know.

So is an entrepreneur then somebody who combines kind of like a vision of something that could be different to the stuff that's out there now with the drive and the get-go to actually make a change? Because that to me seems to be one of the things I see in entrepreneurialism that You don't sit and just talk about it, you do it. There's the kind of just do it thing, isn't there?

Yeah, there is that just do it concept. And I was very fortunate enough years, many, many years ago, to actually meet Richard Branson. And yeah, it was great. And it was, I was on the first flight from London to Hong Kong with the Virgin Atlantic, was it called, or Virgin whatever it's called, Virgin Airways.

Invited you on his next flight into Mars.

Yeah, and I, you know, we met him in Hong Kong airport and, you know, he's, I suppose, like all the really great entrepreneurs, he is such a low-key figure, you know, but, you know, his thinking is very simplistic and I think if you look at you know, some of the great business people, entrepreneurs, female and male across the world, you see, like, you know, I think of Jack Welch, the CEO of GE for many years. Yeah. I think it was him who had coined the phrase, simplicity is the nature of success. And I think that the simpler you can get is— because we, you know, business people like to make things complex. I was speaking with someone there recently about academic writing, and it was— I won't mention who it was, but a very, very senior academic in Swansea, where you mentioned, University of Wales Trinity Saint David. And she said to me, academic writing is actually a load of nonsense. Academic writing is about academics trying to put themselves on a pedestal and trying to say that I'm better than everyone else. And she said to me, Good writing is about clarity, succinctness, and critical thinking, and being able to argue your point across. And that's what it is. And it's kind of all boxed up in this kind of complex way that is made— they don't want us to understand it.

No.

Because they want to be above everyone else. And I think good, really good entrepreneurs and really good—

let's bring it down to entrepreneurial thinking, Joe, maybe.

Good entrepreneurial thinkers bring themselves into people, bring themselves into— and that goes for leadership as well, which I'll come back to in a minute. But if you think about entrepreneurial thinking, a lot of people ask me, so what is entrepreneurial thinking? I don't know what it is. And a lot of the research behind entrepreneurial thinking, particularly in education, is around taking concepts from entrepreneurship education and bringing them into— but also entrepreneurial thinking is about harnessing opportunities. But in the first instance, it's harnessing passion. It's about harnessing a passion. You have a passion for what you do, Joe. Everything you do, you do it with 150%. I think that's why we get on so well. We're kind of kindred spirits in that regard. You know, it's about harnessing skills, it's about harnessing experience, it's about harnessing knowledge and insights, and insights from an empathetic perspective. It's about resources and networks and all that thing. So all those things put together give entrepreneurial thinking the concept to take opportunities at the right time, at the right place. But entrepreneurial thinking is also the ability to see things differently. and to see things differently than maybe the rest of the people do, and to take that entrepreneurial thinking and look at a product, look at a service, look at education, and try to reimagine it in a different way. Again, another interesting concept about entrepreneurial thinking— I hope I'm— stop me if you want to interrupt me now— but is, you know, people— like, there's a classic argument around are entrepreneurs born or can they be made, right? So we won't get into that debate because we'd be here all day, but But entrepreneurial thinking actually can be taught. It can be taught and it can be developed through, as you know, true understanding of certain concepts of value creation, intentional iteration, and engaging with others, creating that network of people as well. And it's more like a state of mind, Joe, I think. It's a state of mind that opens your eyes to new ways of learning. And once you're open to new ways of learning, you automatically move into new opportunities. So I think that kind of sums it up.

And having been through the diploma myself, I mean, one of the things that all the facilitators and program leaders seem to be, you know, they always keep coming back to design thinking and this framework which seems to be made for this. I don't know whether it was made for it, but it seems to dovetail into all the things you just talked about so beautifully.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think design thinking is a really— I mean, for me, it's a groundbreaking concept from the first day. I mean, groundbreaking for me because it kind of brought me into this world to a certain extent. You know, when I stumbled across design thinking many moons ago, you know, in the Innovation Academy in 2015, when I went through the program myself before I worked here. But at that time, I just thought it was another kind of a—

Another one.

Yeah, you know, just a kind of a fad. But then when I was a marketing lecturer in Dublin Business School at the time, when I went back to DBS and I kind of said, you know, this could be something, you know, and henceforth we did a good number of design sprints. But I think You know, you're right. Design thinking is— I think it's difficult. It's a difficult process. But once you open it up to— again, it's like once you open your mind, the possibilities are endless. And design thinking forces you outside your comfort zone and forces you to open your mind. It encourages you to speak to other people. It's a customer-centric concept.

Yes.

And once you do those 3 things, whoa! But it's back in action, you know.

So let's bring entrepreneurial thinking and design thinking and that process to education, because that's what the podcast is kind of about, is about innovative education. So here's a challenging question for you, okay? So the first part of the question is, what does it mean to be a creative educational leader? And the kicker is, doesn't all this creative education just mean kind of you're playing about? And it's not really applicable to real curriculums and study programs and getting through the material and that kind of stuff. You know, is this not just an excuse to have 3 weeks off and have fun playing with cardboard and stuff?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's very easy to see it that way, and I think one of the problems we have as educators, Joe— and I say we because you and I came up the traditional route, you know, we came up through school, probably into college, and now, you know, and we came up that kind of traditional, uh, uh, way, you know. Um, and I, I will answer your question, I'll come to it in a minute, but I, I just coincidentally was looking at a podcast this morning from, um, Sir Ken Robinson. God rest him now, he's— he died unfortunately, as you know. But, you know, and it was, um, it was a pod— uh, it was a conference he was recorded at in December 2018. He was speaking about his book at the time, Finding My Element, which, as you know, was the second book he wrote after The Element. You know, he gave an example of this lady who was a concert pianist, and she, you know, she was great at what she did, but she actually was then his book editor for 5 years. And he asked her one day, he said— I forget her name— he said, Why did you— how long have you been in book editing? Only 5 years. I used to be a concert pianist, blah, blah, blah. And she said, I never liked what I did.

Right.

And he talks about this concept of finding your element. Like, when you find your element, you actually will never work again because you love what you do. And to a certain extent, I would say that's where I am now. I absolutely love what I do. Not in it for the money, as you know, Joe, in education. We're not going to be buying Ferraris or that kind of thing. But so I think when you actually love what you do, you believe in it. You have a passion for it. And more importantly, or maybe most importantly, the people you're engaging with, maybe you're facilitating a class for, will actually believe you as well. So is creativity and playing with cardboard and all that kind of stuff, you know, is it just an excuse to have a bit of fun? I don't think so. If you go back to the earliest days of teaching, I mentioned in the questionnaire you sent me about Maria Montessori, you know, in 1897, she created—

One of the key influences in education.

Yeah, she created Montessori teaching, you know. And as you know, I'd be a, you know, I'd be a big critic, you know, I'd be a, I'd be, you know, I critique sometimes the fact that we, you know, we still, we're still doing in the classroom what we did 100 years ago. But we're still doing Montessori teaching, which was over 100 years old, because it works. Because we bring children through hands-on learning, collaborative play and creativity. If you— and here's the crux of your question— if we can embed more concepts of creativity, more concepts of understanding innovative teaching techniques in primary school education, I would say even pre-primary in a more structured way, because Montessori, you know, The unfortunate thing about it is, you know, a lot of parents who have children in Montessori schools call them a crèche. Yeah, it's not a crèche, it's Montessori teaching. And, um, so I don't think so, Joe, but, but, but I think your question is really valid because I think it's, it's, it requires a mindset change, and that's the difficulty. It's not about whether it's right or wrong, it's, it's, it's, it is, it's the difficulty, you know.

From what you just said, Because it was interesting, you said children, but my experience of your teaching and the teaching at the Innovation Academy isn't kids, it's adults. And you're doing this with adults, you're not just doing it with kids. So yeah, yeah, as well, because there's obviously benefits, you know, no matter whether you're 7 or 47 or 57.

Yeah, yeah, no, huge. You're spot on. And the example I'm going to give you now is exactly what we're just talking about. I had a meeting this morning with a lady who will, in fairness, remain nameless, but she's just taken part in the 3-week Professional Certificate in Creativity and Innovation in Education with me and my colleagues at the Innovation Academy. And, you know, indeed, Joe was on the program with us this June helping us out, which is great.

But This—

let's call her Mary for argument's sake. So, you know, Mary is, um, a professor in UCD, uh, leads, uh, an incredibly large program.

Mm-hmm.

And she took the course— she— sorry, she joined the program with a lot of trepidation, not sure what's this crack about playing with cardboard boxes and Marshmallows and spaghetti and Lego ducks. Wasn't sure about it. So, um, you know, we had a conversation this morning, obviously post-program, and, you know, you know, she was just overwhelmingly, um, uh, so overwhelmed by the, by the program. But, but she said to me, she said, the problem is we have expectations as educators in particular. We have expectations.

Yes.

And we think those expectations are based on our education, what we've gone through. And now, and she talked about this concept of stepping over the threshold, which, as you know, Joe, we talk about that in the program. You know, we talk about actually you need to get over that threshold and then you think in a different way. So, you know, this girl Mary, Joe, I mean, she talked about going over this threshold. And, you know, what's interesting about her is She is currently a leader in education, okay, in her field. And but what she said she didn't realize was that she didn't understand being a creative leader. She didn't understand actually what that meant and how to lead creatively from, you know, from both maybe a pedagogical perspective and also a people perspective, you know.

Yes.

Particularly when you're coming across maybe different cultures as well, which could be an issue. I think— sorry, go ahead.

People thing seems to be so critical, doesn't it? I mean, I think for me that was probably one of the strengths of the whole experience that I went through on the diploma, and now I'm doing the podcast and, you know, widening the net, if it were. It's all about incredible people, isn't it?

It is, and, you know, the more incredible people are, you know, like, so You know, you and I know like a lot of great educators, a lot of great people working in our industry and so on and so forth, you know, but you don't really associate the term leader with them, you know. But when you sit down and you talk to them, I'm thinking about people like Dr. Deirdre McGillicuddy and, you know, maybe even, you know, David Price in the UK and people that Joe and I would have worked with in the past, then you understand it's not about traditional leadership as we probably have come to know it, like that kind of typical Peter Drucker type management style or leadership style person, although I do enjoy Drucker's work. But there's a concept in leadership that I love, and I've written it down actually in preparation for this. And it's the whole concept about leaders— leadership is not about being in charge. It's about Taking care of people in your charge.

Yes, I think Simon Sinek put something.

I think it is Simon Sinek, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It's about you know I think creative leadership is about challenging the status quo. It's about believing in the way we actually can think differently. And Gary Ridge, the CEO of WD-40, talks about this. He's a super guy, uh, and he talks about, uh, the mindset for leadership. And he has 4 concepts around collaboration, inclusivity, uh, being purpose-driven, and always being in a learning mode. So if, if I took those 4 concepts, I, I think it, it probably represents a lot of what we believe in as educators. You know what I mean? But we're not necessarily leaders, but I think we are in our own way, creative and innovative leaders in how we direct and maybe lead the courses we deliver and so on. So, you know, and there's a guy, I just can't remember his name, he's the CEO of Circle K, you know, the Circle K organization, the garages and forecourts retailing and so on. He talks about this whole area of you know, leadership and his leadership style is the reason why Circle K is where it is today. Yeah, I think, look, I think we could be all day talking about leadership here, but I think it's important to understand what creative and innovative leadership is. It's not about necessarily being in charge, it's about something different.

Yeah, I mean, I've always loved— it's Robert Greenleaf, isn't it? Mid-'70s, kind of the servant leadership model, and I love that. model of leadership. And I mean, I used that when I was in industry and still try and use that today because I think if you look after your people, they look after you.

Yeah, 100%. And it's that emotional intelligence. It's about that emotional understanding, empathy, how to hear people, I think is really important, and how to listen. And again, Gary Ridge talks about emotional intelligence, but we all say, oh yeah, emotional intelligence, great, great, great, Daniel Goleman. But it's all about knowing how to have emotional intelligence. And that's the difficulty, I think, you know.

And using a tool like design thinking, which builds it in. I mean, the DNA of design thinking is that empathy mapping stage, isn't it? It's actually, you gotta listen, you gotta go out and listen and talk to people and find out what they think and absorb that, which will be almost Every time.

Yep.

To what you think.

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's hard because we're not used to that, because we're all used to this concept of, well, you know, well, oh yeah, well, I think this is what we should do. We're not asking you what you should do, you know. And I think traditional— I mean, I come from a marketing background, and, you know, traditional marketing research, you know, is very inwardly focused. It's very full of bias. You know, I think, you know, design thinking has broken that mold entirely.

So you— I didn't know it at the time, but when I came on the diploma in education, you told me later that was your first morning teaching that program. And we gave you such a hard time, so I still feel guilty about that. But so you've, you know, 2 years on, And you've run a number of these programs now, and you've gone through a few iterations, and you've brought all your prior knowledge, plus all the knowledge that you're acquiring about design thinking, and the experience of having all these amazing learners and educators with you. You just said earlier, before we started the podcast, like, you're thinking about where to go next with the program. And, you know, Tinkering with redesigns and all the rest of it. So how does, you know, you've got educators listening to the podcast and they're thinking, well, yeah, this is all very fine and good, but I mean, how do I apply this to me? How do I apply this to this program that I've got to run come September or whatever it is? So give everybody a little bit of insight into kind of, well, what's the process then? How do you apply all this to the next program that you're going to run, for instance?

Yeah, that's a really great question, Joe. I remember the first day we met. I'll never forget it. This guy walks in with a camera around his neck, and I kind of, you know, I kind of look at this guy, and I knew it was a nice camera. I have a little bit of interest in photography, and, you know, and he wasn't afraid to speak his mind. And, you know, anyway, look, here we are now, and it's It's great. But yeah, that was a tough time. And, um, I just need to preface your question so everyone understands the difference between lecturing and facilitating. Yes. Right. Because it's, it's a concept I found very difficult. Um, so, you know, bearing in mind, uh, I, you know, previous 7 years before I joined the Academy, or 6 and a half, whatever it was, I was in, um, you know, I lectured in a number of different colleges, primarily in Dublin Kaplan, Dublin Business School, where I lectured in marketing, primarily consumer behavior at master's and undergrad level, and then became course director for marketing for the whole college. So I was very much in a traditional, if you like, classroom setting lecturing to students. And following me doing— I think this is really important— I did the diploma in entrepreneurial education, as it was called then, in the Innovation Academy in June 2015. I did it for 3 weeks in June, then I left and I implemented my action learning project back in Dublin Business School. So it was after that time, it was after June 2015, and in particular December 20th, you know, January 2016, from that time onwards, I really started to engage the concept of not lecturing and facilitating students and bringing students out into the world doing fieldwork. in learning by doing, you know, and that, which was unheard of.

Was it scary?

Yeah, really scary. I mean, I'll tell you some of the stuff I did. Like, I mean, I taught consumer behavior, so at master's level we used to do this retail study tour, you know, and we'd sit and I'd bring students to Stephen's Green and we'd sit in Stephen's Green and observe shoppers with— on Grafton Street as well in Dublin, observe shoppers with the different bags they're carrying and try and understand people from that. And then we used to go around stores and we do secret study. I mean, it was crazy stuff looking back, but it worked. And I still have— I see on LinkedIn students way, way, way, way down the line on LinkedIn and see, thanks for that experience, Alan, it really worked for me and blah, blah, blah. So So I knew at a very early stage that that kind of approach, that learning by doing, experiential learning approach, worked. But when I came into the academy, as you know, it's very hard to get something— to stop doing something you do automatically every day. So in DBS, I came in and like, okay, consumer behavior, into classroom, blah blah blah blah blah. And a lot of what I did was still sage on the stage, top of the classroom, That's right, PowerPoint deck kind of. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, and I tried to move away from that. So, so to a certain extent— excuse me— to a certain extent, I did that in, in, in the Innovation Academy in the early days, you know. And, uh, and that doesn't work. It doesn't work. And I had to kind of take a step back myself and understand, and I suppose do my own empathy and acknowledge my own— my own— I won't call them failings, but my own barriers. to, uh, changing. And I had to kind of metaphor— metamorph— metamorphosize to a certain extent into a facilitator. And I think when we met, I was in that metamorphic stage.

From a moth to a butterfly in your head.

Yeah, and to a certain extent, you know, I mean, I still look back on that class. It was a tough class. Tough class.

Yeah, it wasn't it?

Yeah, you know, and, uh, I, you know, funny, I had a conversation with, uh, with, uh, the head of our program development, uh, Dr. Colman Farrell, yesterday. And we were just talking about, like, you know, uh, the educator's audience is a tough audience.

Yeah.

You know, um, because, um, you know, because they're, they're coming with expectations into the class to come, and then, and then you, you bring them through an exercise of, um, redesigning a telephone box. You know, people who are head of engineering, people who are you know principals of secondary schools, people who are head teachers in primary schools, whatever. And but it's that moment, Joe. It's that moment that that you know that golden nugget moment that that you do something with them and they're over the threshold and they go, "Oh my God!" And you know, and I've seen these action learning projects that come out of our. Our program where these teachers, professors, and so on go back to their institutions, faculties, classrooms, whatever, and they fundamentally change what they do and reimagine education in a way that's better. So I think that's the point. And, you know, I don't— look, I don't know everything. A very, very clever academic I used to work with in DBS, he said, Alan, you know something about you have to remember this, you only know that much more than whoever you're teaching. And he said, if you remember that, he said, you'll always be on the right side of us, you know. And if you think you know, you know, then you'll trip up, you know, that's your banana skin.

Yeah.

So I think it's respect and collaboration as well. Collaboration is that concept of the co-creation of learning, and that's one of the things that really resonated with me in this, in this, as both as a student on the program way back when in 2015 and today as we deliver the program, as we change it. So to answer your final part of your question, what am I, how am I bringing that to change and so on? Um, I think it's a couple of things. I think, um, fundamental game changer for me and the program was going, um, Going online to the virtual, which you did in the middle of my experience of the diploma, you know.

Yeah, we had the first 2 modules in the shack, which was nuts.

It was a nuts time. I'll never forget it, you know. So, you know, like every educator, like everyone in the world, like, you know, March 12th, 2020, will we ever forget it? Like, you know, so the world turned upside down. So we have to—

That's all I say, because we had 2 weeks of prep time. But, uh, without that Paddy's Day weekend and, and break, it would have been, it would have been even more of a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so look, yeah, we did, we brought it online, and that gave us a lot of opportunity to kind of look at things differently, obviously. And we did, and we did a lot of, um, fundamental changes to the program, bringing in, yeah, new aspects of learning, new speakers, new, new collaborators. You know, people like David Price and other people, and that's given a whole new kind of sense of— I call it the spice. There's a bit of spice to it and a bit of an edge.

Yeah.

I think the next steps, Joe, are difficult. So the last couple of iterations— and I'm not putting myself on a pedestal here— we're kind of victims of our own success. The last program we delivered, just finished in June, was really good. And I think the next stage is now is how we actually really focus and develop the virtual delivery to market the program to an international audience.

And I mean, the international expansion has been marked over the last year or so, hasn't it? So, you know, I think education seems to be moving to this pan-border model, and you've, you know, you very successfully integrated the cohorts from Vietnam into this program and stuff. So what are the opportunities and what are the key challenges for an educator there? And what's good and what's not so good, or what's scary and not so scary about this?

Yeah, do you mean what's scary for them, Joe, or for the I mean, yeah, because I mean, our audience is primarily educators. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's focus on, you know, how do we help the other teachers and the other educators out there, if you like, to engage with their cohorts, with what they could do, what they might do?

Yeah, I think there's two— it's a really great question, by the way— there's two challenges. I think the first challenge is is people. So, my apologies, is the system. And the second challenge is the people who work in the system. If you look at educational systems around the world, and they're entrenched in red tape, in history, and we've always done it this way, so this way we should do it. I mean, the Irish Leaving Cert is the greatest example. You know, we're still assessing children the way I was assessed in school, whatever, 40 years ago.

Yeah, David Price does that lovely example of kind of, you know, the day he left school, he noticed that kind of— no, he came back to his school that he'd left like 20 years previously or whatever, and the same wooden things that the students had made that he left school with were still there in the principal's office 20 years Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's not to discount, like, a lot of, you know, schools and a lot of, you know, educational organizations are changing and are delivering a new pedagogical approach. I mean, I think Educate Together is a great organization in Ireland. I think some of the, you know, universities in Ireland are trying to do new things. The impact of UDL and, you know, active learning principles and, you know, different forms of curriculum design, taking into account creativity and innovation and all those things. I think the OECD and the World Economic Forum are adding a lot of weight to the argument at the moment, and it was very refreshing. We had an interview with Dr. Andreas Schleicher, Director of Education for the OECD, on June 18th as part of the Festival of Education at the Academy. And you know, like, he would be regarded as quite a traditional educationalist, you know, and he developed the PISA scores and all that kind of thing. But, you know, to see his interview with Valerie Hannan that day, he has totally changed. It was quite amazing. And one of the things he said, he said, if you look at the teaching profession, he says, it's up to the teaching profession to change the teaching profession. Yeah, he said don't be waiting for government policy to change. Change the teaching profession. Change from the grassroots, and then that will inform policy and that. So I think we have we have a we have a we have a you know a behemoth if you like of of organization. I did a paper recently for a journal, and in that I I state I can't remember now word for word, but I say just you know like you know COVID nineteen sorry um. I talked about Clay Christensen's concept of— Clay Christensen, the Harvard Business professor.

Disruptive innovation.

Yeah, disruptive innovation. Thanks. And I said, is COVID-19 the disruptive innovator for education? And education and educational institutions, I think, are the old school now, and excuse the pun, are the old competitors that are going to fall off and change will come from that. I think The second problem, Joe, is people.

Yes.

So the people involved in education, so teachers, university, third level, further education and training people. To be honest with you, people in further education and training, I think, have sometimes almost have more of an open mind to change, you know, because they see and they're dealing with maybe a different kind of student cohort. I think primary school teachers And secondary school teachers are so entrenched with how they have to teach, how they have to organize their days, how they have to organize their curriculum design and delivery, that it's very difficult to work outside that. But even things like, I mean, I'll take, steal your phrase, Joe, you know, plus one.

Yeah.

One small change, that's all they have to do is just do one small change, you know, and it'll come in every time. So I think those 2 problems are big: educational establishments and people within them.

And one of your people that you put down as one of your educational inspirations, and maybe her story talks to this point, is Andrea Zafiroku.

Yeah, yeah, she's just unbelievable. So, you know, like, I don't know her, I never met her, I've just, you know, I've just been inspired by her. So in 2018, And, uh, Andrea Zafarauku, she won the 2018 Global Teacher Prize, uh, which I think is awarded by the, um, Middle Eastern countries, you know, but is recognized as a global, uh, prize, you know. So, um, and Andrea works in, um, Alpertan Community School in Brent in, in the UK, uh, and this area in Brent would be probably the most ethnically diverse and, you know, socially deprived areas in the UK, and quite a large school, community school. And Andrea is an art and textile teacher, and she literally transformed the way the school operated by, one, teaching through creativity and innovation with her arts and arts and crafts. And, um, but she also, you know, started to engage, um, you know, engaged emotionally and, and true empathy with the students. So for example, you know, simple things like, you know, so one of the problems in Brent's, uh, they, they— I forget the figures, Joe, but they have like, you know, there are so many different languages spoken in school because of the diverse ethnic range of of students or pupils. So she started to learn language. She started to learn Spanish, she started to learn Hebrew, she started to learn whatever the language was, you know. And she— so she would stand at the gates in the morning and she would meet the students saying— and she would say good morning in whatever language they spoke. You're welcome, I hope you have a good day, what are you doing today? You know, and among other great stuff she's done, you know, I mean, you can read up about her. So, you know, she's so inspirational. And I think one of the things that I was inspired by her was that this uninterrupted passion for what she does.

Yeah.

She's not in art and textile education for money and the share price. It's not about maximizing shareholder value. You know, it's about doing what she loves. As Ken Robinson says, she has found her element. And when you find your element, you get the ability, or you have the ability, to bring that element in an inspirational way to other people. And that's what she's done. She's amazing.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was reading her story when I read it in your kind of show notes, and I'd not come across her, but she is. So it'll be in the show notes. Another couple of names that you mentioned, these were books that we should read as educators. Now, I'm not— you gave me 4, I'm gonna pick 2 of them. Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. Oh my goodness.

Yeah, yeah, that's it there. Yeah, Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.

Yeah, so I came across this book The other one, World Class Learners, is the second one. But talk about Flow first.

Yeah, yeah. Flow is, uh, it's, it's an amazing book. So this guy, um, Mihaly, he's a, I think, originally a psychologist. Um, but it's all about the psychology of optimal experience. And what he talks about is, you know, when you're in a space of happiness, when you're doing something you absolutely love, yes, you, you have a passion for you have a— you have this flow and nothing will stop it. It's absolute, um, it's like a river in flood, you know. And, uh, yeah, look, it's a— it's absolute must-read. Uh, I'm actually reading it again. I just— I have to prove this. I have my bookmark there. So I've started to read it again, um, because, um, you know, it's not an easy read. It's kind of deep enough stuff in places, but I really recommend it. And then the other one, World Class, Yeah, Yong Chu. Yeah, so I, I might just add this to, um, because you asked me about what podcasts I listen to. I discovered this guy through the Inside Education podcast.

That was the podcast you recommend— recommended.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Inside Education is run by an Irish guy, uh, Sean Delaney. Uh, I think he's registrar in, uh, Marino Institute of Education, the teacher training college.

Marino, don't we? I mean, yeah, yeah, Lynch was from Marino and various people have got connections with Marino. They really have got the tentacles, kind of innovative education going.

Yeah, so this guy, it was around the start of the first lockdown last year and I love my cycling, as you know, Joe, and so I had, I have a kind of a training bike that I, or, you know, like a wheel, spinning wheel You put your bike, slot your bike into. And so it was winter last year, and I was kind of, you know, just doing a bit of training one Saturday morning on the bike, and I had the EarPods in, and I was— or AirPods in— and listened to this guy's Insider Education interviewing Yong Chou. And that interview is available on Insider Education. You should look for it, and the listeners should read it. So this guy is a Chinese professor He now works in Canada, university in Canada somewhere, I don't know. But he wrote a book in 2006 called World Class Learners, and it's all about entrepreneurial thinking, entrepreneurial thinking in education, the achievement gap versus the entrepreneurship gap, and then how this concept of preparing employees for a new world through, you know, through a new education. And he gives lots of examples, like for example, High Tech High in California, you know, Larry Rosenstock School. And, you know, he talks about the concept of pursuing one's passion as well, which almost is like Ken Robinson's Element and to a certain extent Flow. They're all linked, you know.

Wow. Okay. Well, that's brilliant. And I mean, what I thought was really interesting was, you know, these aren't just Irish or kind of European. This is global, isn't it? This is all over the world. This is happening. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah. And even today, look, I mean, to a certain extent, design thinking is a hot topic at the moment and the concept of entrepreneurial thinking and entrepreneurial teaching and learning is only really coming into the fore in the last couple of years. And there's been a lot of talk about it and so on, people have written about it, but if you look at what some of the universities across the world are doing at the moment, for example, California Polytechnic, I think their tagline is learning by doing, I think it is. And then the schools like Big Picture Learning, and then of course you've got the new university in London called the London Interdisciplinary School. And that's a really interesting one where they're designing courses, degree courses for tomorrow effectively. And to a certain extent, there's a big focus in that organization around self-directed learning.

And is this where there is no formal curriculum but you basically design your own degree?

Correct.

I mean, UCD talked about this with Horizons a little bit, didn't they? Where they pick and choose different modules and things, but I don't think we've gone down the whole hog of you can bespoke create a degree.

Yeah, but I mean, it's almost like, you know, I see the educational system in Ireland as almost like a car engine, like a, you know, a finely tuned engine that has an engine, it has, you know, gearing, it has wheels, and to a certain extent, the You know, the inside carburetor of the engine is that primary school education. And then, you know, it goes out to the— you know, you go into a new— into a second— that's kind of first and second gear. And then third and fourth gears is the secondary school. And then, you know, the cruising gears are those years in college. But you can't change one of those. You can't just change one gear.

Yeah.

They all have to do it in unison. And, you know, I think there has been a lot of good stuff changed at many levels. And I mean, I think what the Innovation Academy are doing is amazing. I think what some of the Educate Together schools are doing are great at primary and secondary level. But I think in the main, I think a lot of people are— a lot of organizations are entrenched. And until you can't change one to just— so Universities can't change the system when they have— when they are entrenched by the Leaving Cert and the CAO point system. Yeah, just how can they do it? Their hands are tied, you know. And until that element of concepts are changed— and I must say I was very disappointed to hear the Minister for Education talk about next year's Leaving Cert already, no change.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. One of the things, and your plus one, which kind of is going to bring us towards the end of our discussion, your plus one was a word that I've never heard of, which is great because I love learning new words.

Yeah.

But it also seems, I think, to talk to this thing that quite a lot of the work that you're doing isn't just with necessarily educators. And the Innovation Academy seems to be doing courses in PwC and in corporates and stuff as well as for teachers and as well as, you know, for teachers of all levels and stuff. And your plus one, you just put one word and the word was effectuation.

Yeah.

So that's a new word for me. So what's effectuation? Does it mean putting things into effect? Because that's what I would guess it means. And how does that tie into both the kind of corporate world and the education world?

Yeah, great question, Joe. So, so let me go back a step. So way, way, way, way back, back when I was an early stage, you know, uh, greenhorn lecturer, uh, I was, um, doing my third level, um, Teaching and Learning Diploma at DIT at the time, um, and I was lecturing part-time in a college in Dublin called IBAT College. I-B-A-T.

Hmm.

Private college, small private college, great, great little college. And, um, So I was lecturing 4th years in entrepreneurship and final year students doing a market— doing a business degree. And so I was, you know, and like a lot of lectures, like a lot of part-time lecturing jobs I've had over the years, you get a phone call at 6 o'clock the day before saying, Alan, we're stuck for a lecturer for entrepreneurship tomorrow morning, can you do it? And of course you're, you're going, okay, yeah, no problem. So of course I spent, you know, that evening— I always probably wasn't just probably a couple of days, but looking at stuff. And I just, I, I always remember where I was when I discovered this. I was in, um, a, a small coffee shop on Dame Street in the center of Dublin, and I discovered this lady called Saras Sarasvati, Professor Saras Sarasvati. And in 2006, she wrote a book as part of her PhD, I think it was, called Effectuation. And Effectuation is a concept she devised out of entrepreneurship teaching and learning and taking the concepts of entrepreneurship. So the Effectuation Model is based around 4 principles and 1 overriding principle. And basically, you know, the 4 principles are the bird in the hand, um, uh, uh, the lemonade principle, the, the, uh, the cozy quilt principle, and, um, the, um, the pilot in the plane principle— control versus prediction. I've forgotten the other one, whatever it is anyway, but, uh, but you can look it up. But the effectuation model, it's a super, super model.

Okay.

And yeah, and it can be used. It, it, it's a model that I have, um, you know, tweaked and put into the educator's program to solve a problem. So it's kind of like the same vein as design thinking. We use design thinking to solve a problem. And I've used effectuation. I use effectuation model to solve problems. Great, great model. And I always remember where I discovered it.

Fantastic. Well, you must send me her name so I can put a link to it in the show notes. But that's really good. And why isn't that in the diploma? You've got to put that in, definitely.

Yeah, no, It is. It actually is, Joe. But sometimes we don't. This year we never got to do it, you know. And yeah.

That's a thing. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So we're coming to the end of the hour and I said we wouldn't go over the hour. Okay. So if people have been interested in hearing about entrepreneurial education and stuff, what's your call to action? What, you know, my call to action to everybody is plus one, make one change, do something. So what's your call to action to somebody who this has resonated with a little bit?

Yeah, I'd say in the first instance, you know, look deeply— I'm presuming you're an educator, so look deeply into what you're currently doing. Yes, look deeply into how you're currently teaching, look deeply into how you're engaging currently with your students. Then try to understand, is that working? Are you getting the most from your students? Are you enjoying it? Are they learning? And how could you do it better? And I think one of the things, you know, and like, this is not a sales gig for the program, but I think one of the things the program does offer is it offers a deep way of reflecting on your own practice. And if you reflect on, you know, one of the things we've even since you were on the program, Joe, we've really turned up the dial on reflective practice within the program. And it's such an important educational tool, reflective practice. I think you'll agree with me.

I do.

And so I think, you know, call to action, reflect on what you're doing at the moment and say, is that, you know, are you engaging? in traditional teaching methods where you're talking at your students? And is that working? If so, great, but it probably isn't. So, and I would say, how would you engage more in an experiential learning model?

And if somebody was thinking about the Innovation Academy, I mean, I've talked to a number of people who've started the program, and before the program they're terrified. terrified. You know, I don't really know what this thing is, and it looks weird, and, and I, you know, and, but, but my experience of it was it was the best educational experience I've ever had. And, you know, and there were primary school teachers, there was Donna who teaches in prisons, who was on the podcast a few weeks ago, there was, there was a lady who runs a psychotherapy school You know, there were professors and teachers from all different levels of the educational system. It was an amazing experience. There were vets and doctors, and it was incredible.

Yeah, your class had a real eclectic mix. It was great, you know. Well, I mean, I, you know what, I think people are nervous about coming on our program because it's not traditional education. It's not that, you know, here's this set of slides slides, read this paper before you come online. It isn't that. In fact, you know, we don't do slides in the main, you know. And, um, but I would say, um, you know, we're asking you to think entrepreneurially. So when you have to think entrepreneurially, you automatically are taking a risk.

Yes.

So I would say take that risk and jump in. I'll just quote one or two people who I spoke to recently. So And I don't mind giving their names because they— so Dr. Linda Dowling-Hetherington, she's Director of Assurance of Learning at UCD, and she's just finished a program with us last week, and she wrote on her LinkedIn page, this is the best experience of teaching and learning I've ever had in my 25 years in education. So, you know, to hear someone as You know, as not incredibly important in the UCD world, as knowledgeable as she is, and it was highly respected. Obviously, to say that was was incredible. I spoke to last week one of the ladies from she's from further education and training background. She took the program last week. She just finished last week. But before she took the program, she was exactly you're saying, Joe. She was really nervous, and Mary, my colleague who does the recruiting. for the program, Mary Saunders, in marketing and recruitment in the operations team at the academy. She said, Alan, you know, you need to speak to this girl, she's not sure. So I remember speaking to her, she didn't really know what she was doing. She was, you know, further education and training in a different sector in rural Ireland, and she was so nervous.

Yeah.

3 weeks later, again, fundamentally has changed the way she looks at what she does, you know. So it's, look at it, it's a step. I mean, we, you know, day 1 of the program, Joe, We, uh, you know, in, in the classroom, in the original class when we used to do this in classroom, I forget it. You know, I throw, I threw a, I throw a rope down on the floor and I ask people to step over that as a threshold to start that hero's journey, you know, John Campbell's hero's journey. Uh, I use the, the, the, the, um, that, that kind of picture. Um, so, uh, yeah, it's a step, it's a step into the unknown and it's a road, you know, the road not taken and all that. And, uh, But I think the outcomes are, um, really interesting from the point of view of here we are speaking to each other and we're both alumni of the program and, uh, we wouldn't be here only for that, you know. And I think what it does create as well, Joe, if I may say so, it creates a super community of learners. It creates, you know—

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've made so many good friends now, um, from, from that experience and, and not just the cohort you know, but people that I've connected to via the experience of being in there and then doing new things. It's wonderful. Yeah, it is.

No, it is great. Yeah.

Plus one after plus one after plus one in my life from this. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, I think the work you're doing, Joe, has to be recognized, you know, these podcasts, and I know the book you're involved in. And, you know, obviously, you're a fellow of Academy. And, you know, all I say is we need more Joe Houghtons, you know, and it's been great to get to know you, obviously, you know.

Yeah, well, thank you so much. I mean, you know, you were one of the first people that I put on the list, and I know we didn't get to record this a little while ago because my wife broke both wrists the day we were supposed to be recording, I think. So thanks for coming on and making the time. Yeah, Alan Morgan, the guy who actually put me on the road here to doing this. So thank you.

Yeah, great, Joe. Yeah, thanks so much. And I say the journey we've both been on so far, I hope it lasts for many more years together. So thanks, Joe.

Okay.