Video Episode 7 - Clodagh Fleming, CEO of Ohana Zero Suicide

Hi, my name's Joe Houghton and this is the Plus One Podcast. Today I've got Clodagh Fleming, who is leading an absolutely inspirational but quite a young organization called Ohana Zero Suicide, which is, I think, an Irish-based organization. Clodagh can fill us in on that in a little while. But in a relatively few months, I think it was kind of December last year, from talking to Clodagh before, seems to have had a huge effect in Ireland on this online training space around raising awareness of suicide prevention. I'm looking at their website today, and We are, what, the 26th of April, 2021, we're recording this episode. 257,000 people have taken this training, which to me is absolutely incredible. I've been involved in suicide prevention for all of my adult life. I was a Samaritan and Samaritan trainer in the UK before I moved to Ireland, and then I was in involved in helping set up Pieta House, and I was chair of their board for 3 years. So this is a subject that's kind of very close to my heart. And I think one of my students took the Ohana Zero Suicide training and popped it up on LinkedIn, and I spotted that and went and did the training myself. And Clodagh commented on a LinkedIn post I shared. So I got in touch with her and said, could we have a chat? And could she come on the podcast? So because it's a really innovative and inspirational educational approach, so it fits in beautifully with the whole Plus One idea for the podcast. So welcome, Clodagh, and thanks for taking the time to talk today.

Thank you so much, Joe. And I have to say, after seeing or listening to Dr. Jacob Eisenberg and Jen Lynch, I think I'm in pretty incredible company, and I hope I can keep the standards up.

Absolutely. Oh no, I mean, I think what you're bringing to this podcast is something that we should all hear because it's so important, but the way you're doing it is also absolutely innovative and is obviously having a really, really profound effect in terms of certainly the number of people that it's reaching. But I mean, looking at your LinkedIn profile, Clodagh, your background is corporate hospitality. It's not mental health or suicide.

Yep.

So where— how did you make a jump from kind of corporate hospitality into suicide prevention? And why OHANA? What's the story there?

Well, I suppose it's very much circumstantial, and it's been quite an incredible journey that I suppose if we want to give credit to COVID-19 for something, I certainly would give it that credit because, you know, back, you know, March of last year, obviously the hospitality event industry collapsed, so I found myself with a lot of free time for probably the first time ever in my professional life. And the opportunity arose where one of my fellow directors, Sue Carthy, approached me to see would I be interested in joining a voluntary team to see if we could make some sort of difference in the kind of mental health and suicide awareness space. And yeah, being perfectly honest, it's not an area I had given a huge amount of thought to prior to this, and, you know, in some ways I feel a little bit guilty about that. I'm also probably a little bit lucky in that I haven't had to think about it too much. So when the opportunity arose, I took and grabbed it with both hands, and it's— yeah, like you've touched on a few points there just in your intro, and it's just really blown me away personally, and I've been— the most rewarding experience, um, so far.

Yeah, yeah. So, so you say you're fortunate because you've not been perhaps directly touched by suicide. That's pretty uncommon, isn't it?

Yeah, it certainly is. It is. And I think I'm probably— well, not probably, I'm definitely in the minority. Um, and it's one of the points in our training, it's over 20 people are you know, impacted by just one suicide, and to be fair, I would nearly think that probably ripples a lot further. So it does, but yeah, it was kind of what I suppose was apparent when we came together, it was just kind of towards the end of the first lockdown, which seems like a lifetime ago now, but, you know, a lot— there's some amazing courses out there available, but they're all predominantly face-to-face, and we just saw this gap and need, you know, and I think it's kind of— obviously suicide and mental health is something that's, you know, been around a lot longer than COVID-19.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I know there's some studies recently saying that the suicide rates haven't been impacted by COVID-19, and look, I'm not an expert, but I find that quite hard to believe, and it may be a case that we'll see the impact more, you know, in time as opposed to immediately. But I'll leave that to the experts to kind of figure out that, the kind of statistics on it. But for us, we just felt there was a need to make something available online. And the other part that kind of appealed to us was to try and find something that was short, direct, and concise, because life is busy. And, you know, no different to myself that you know, mental health awareness and suicide awareness, although it was something I'm familiar with and conscious of, it wasn't a priority for me in my busy life with 3 young children. I have lots of other things that would've come first. So we felt this— our training takes between 20 and 40 minutes to complete. So we just felt that it would work. It was something that people could slot into a lunch break or sitting and having a cup of tea in the evening. And it wasn't a case that they had to dedicate a half day, 2 and a half hours, whatever, to it, but yet the message is simple, it's direct, and I think what they get out of our short training, if anything, is it kind of creates an appetite to learn more while also giving the confidence for them with the skills they learn from it.

Yeah, and I mean, having been through that training myself, it was very, very impactful. It's very easy to take in, It's— most of it's video-based, it's very interactive, um, you can do it on a computer or a tablet or a phone, um, and it's— but it's powerful storytelling. Um, the, the doctor who was on it.

Yeah, I mean, it is. And to be fair, like, it was originally developed by, um, the Zero Suicide Alliance in the UK, um, with— as well as the NHS Mersey side, um, by experts. And, you know, when we identified this particular training and approached them, like, they were incredible, I have to say, from the start, and they still are. That for them, all they wanted was to further the reach, and when we said that we want to do, you know, to make it available across Ireland, they jumped at the chance to help us. And, you know, at BAR, the slight changes we made with their help was just to change Irish statistics to global facts, but otherwise it's their original training. And as you touched on, it's like that with this, there's just 3 individuals telling their own story. You've got the doctor who lost her son through suicide, and, you know, as she pointed out, she's a medical professional and she missed the signs, and she felt she wished there was a training such as this one that she had done in advance of this that she felt she could possibly have made a difference. You know, it's— I suppose it's also important to say that, you know, like, yes, there are quite often signs and you can identify when somebody is struggling, but not in every case. And, you know, we wouldn't like anybody to, you know, have added guilt thinking that if they'd done our training, they could have, you know, made a difference. It's very much a possibility, but there are always the exceptions to this, that they hide it extremely well, and unfortunately you know, there wasn't the opportunity to help them. But yeah, so the doctor's story. We also have Angela Samata, who actually was— our first conversation with her was with her herself. She was involved in the starting of the training, and she lost her husband through suicide. And again, there was no obvious signs. She'd literally come off the phone from him heading home, told him to put the kettle on, and when she arrived home, she found him. so like heartbreaking stories, and then the third one was a guy who, you know, had contemplated suicide himself. So they're really, really powerful stories, and the fact that they're real-life people and the emotion attached to it, I think it just really resonates with people. But apart— aside from those 3 stories, there's 3 kind of steps as such to our training: the See, Say, and Signpost. So I suppose the first, with the see is, you know, kind of showing you how to kind of recognize possible signs. And I suppose something else that we want to hone in on as well with this training is, although it's called a suicide awareness training, it very much works with people that are just struggling mentally, you know, that are a little bit depressed or quite depressed, you know, it's all levels. It doesn't have to be, you know, somebody that is literally at rock bottom and, you know, contemplating taking their own life. So, you know, it's to recognize that, and especially now with our virtual world that we're living in and a lot of people working from home, it's, you know, you're not going to be interacting with people to the same level. And it's trying to see, you know, is there a change in a person that just is making you suspicious that there could be something, something just not right, something that they could be struggling with? And then it's, you know, actually asking the question. and something that I know I'm totally guilty of, and whether it's an Irish or human thing, I'm not sure, but it's, you know, the greeting of, hi, how are you? You know, how often do we actually mean it? And, you know, so I think it's kind of— there's just a natural knee-jerk reaction of, yeah, great, thanks, and you? But we're actually— we're not asking the question, and it's about really asking that question. And, you know, repeating it. And, you know, as I've touched on before, it's, you know, turning into a bit of a Mrs. Doyle and kind of, you know, keep at it until you feel you're getting the real answer. And I think it's that repetition also makes people realize that you do mean the question and you want to hear their answer and not a flippant grand thanks. And then finally, you know, depending on the level of urgency that you feel is there, it's signpost, it's bringing that person to the professional help they need, whether that's a counselling service, A&E, a GP, or whatever else. There's so many amazing services out there, and it's about familiarizing ourselves with them so that we can then guide this person that's at rock bottom. And, you know, I suppose that's the difference with our training to a lot of campaigns that are out there. And don't get me wrong, there's phenomenal campaigns with, you know, it's okay to not be okay and the likes, and it's they're correct, 100%, but our training, the difference is it puts the onus on the person with the mental strength to do the reaching out and not leaving the— putting the onus on the person that already feels like a burden to, you know, come to you who he or she feels he's already, you know, a hassle to. And, you know, so it's kind of by us starting the conversation it kind of can take that weight off their shoulders and make them realise that it's okay to talk to them because we've instigated it, as opposed to waiting for them to do that.

Yeah. I think one of the things that I picked up when I started to get involved with suicide prevention was this question that a lot of people feel very challenged by of, you know, if I go near the question of, are you feeling suicidal? it could push them into it, it could make things worse, but that's not actually the case.

Yeah, no, and that's— to me, it was a massive learning for me because in my ignorance, I suppose, of it all, you know, there's the language— the more direct the language is, the better. You know, it tells you in the training, you ask the person, are you contemplating suicide? Are you thinking of killing yourself? And it's using that direct language that it's removing the stigma, and that in itself helps the person. And it's proven that using this language does not put the idea in their head. You are not going to be the reason that they suddenly have this brainwave to try and take their life, you know. You using that direct language actually gives it— again, it relieves them of the strain and makes them feel that, okay, Okay, you know, the stigma is not there between us in this conversation. I can now open up about these feelings.

Yeah. 250,000, more than a quarter of a million people have taken this training since you rolled it out. When did you first release this in Ireland? I mean, have you been going a while?

Yeah. So we released it in mid-December.

Mid-December 2020.

In 2020. Yes. So at least 6 months ago. And to be fair, at the time we were actually kind of setting targets for ourselves, and we decided to be quite ambitious, and we just said that we would try before the 1st of January to reach 5,000 people, and in the first quarter, 30,000. And at the time we thought we were, you know, okay, let's, let's really push ourselves, but suppose deep down we thought we were being a little bit unrealistic, and what kind of happened, and I suppose that's if you believe in kind of signs and the likes, there are so many things just aligned for us, and one of the big ones was in January we were approached by a rugby club that felt because training wasn't happening and the kind of the part a sports club plays in the community, that they felt there an opportunity for them to, you know, use our training across their senior team members and coaches and wider community. So, we worked with them on launching a kind of club campaign, and it's— I suppose, I'm not sure what kind of— what's the word— what looks at something as being— going viral. I don't know how you equate that, but... It worked for our market, I think it did. Basically, it just— like the social media campaign, it was kind of clubs were nominating other clubs, be that rival or neighbouring clubs. Then they were using WhatsApp as a kind of a communication tool, encouraging their members and the likes to do the training, and it just took off. It just— it was phenomenal. Like, even, I guess, Instagram alone, we were gaining 1,000 followers a day for kind of over the space of kind of a week there at one point. And it just— I suppose what it showed is the need and the appetite for such a training. And we always believed in it, but I suppose when you're so kind of dedicated to something and have put so many hours of work into it, you know, you can be a little bit rose-tinted with your glasses, but I think to see this campaign roll out, it just kind of reinforced that. And then I suppose as a knock-on from that, we started a corporate awards initiative, and that's where we, you know, encouraged companies large or small, whether you had 2 staff or 1,000, we encouraged you to to roll out our training and, you know, give time to your employees to do it and start conversations internally. And that too just took off. We've— I suppose a lot of organizations are still in the process of using it, but we've already— I think about 9 organizations have been awarded a Platinum Award, which means over 75% of their employees have completed our training. We've had some global and organizations have now— are working with us to try and roll it out, starting with Ireland and with the view to going further with it too. So I think between all these things, as well as, you know, just the natural kind of growth of it too, we've had over 250,000 visits to our website It's, yeah, it kind of makes us a bit speechless. You can see I'm kind of fumbling on my words because of it.

Really, I mean—

We're just blown away, we really are. It's humbling. And I suppose what came as well, just there about 2 weeks ago, I received a message from one of the organ— a guy from one of the organizations that had used our training. And I suppose to go back, one of the things I said when I came on board with this And, you know, to be fair, I've worked very hard on it and put a lot of hours into it. And one of the things I said is, if it saves one life, then my work is done. Then every bit of time I've put into this has been worthwhile. And this message I received there about 2 weeks ago, this individual told me that on the back of doing or sharing our training across their organization, one employee approached their boss and admitted to have had suicidal thoughts, and the boss, who had also done the training, actually felt more comfortable in having this conversation with him and directed him to the appropriate help that this guy is now getting. So it was— I'm getting goosebumps even telling you this— it was just such a special message to receive.

Yeah.

to know that there you go, we've saved one life. And now I'm greedy and I want to save a lot more. So hopefully we do.

But I mean, this is what education is about, isn't it? Education is about making a difference. And I mean, what bigger difference can you make than to help somebody?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, and certainly I suppose that you're at your level when it comes to education, there's, I think there's that extra hunger and, you know, kind of desire to learn in university level. And we've actually worked with a number of student unions as well that have reached out to us to use—

That was my next question.

Sorry, I'm skipping ahead on you.

Definitely, yeah, no, great.

Yeah, but yeah, it was actually fabulous. It was initially University College of Cork, when a student union president came to me looking to use our training as well, and what was beautiful is that they wanted to take ownership and create their own campaign, and we worked with them on that, and they kept communicating with me throughout, you know, giving me updates on the success of it. And it's kind of, again, a ripple effect because they were publicizing it across social media, and we had uptake from, I think, LIT and the Royal College of Surgeons, and there's more. I got one bring them to mind now, but a number of universities have now come on board and started using our training, and we're in the process of working on, for Mental Health Awareness Week, trying to devise a campaign for and beyond to kind of use our training within that week and help them with the message and with the Connect with Nature being the theme. I think it's, you know, living on this Emerald Isle, it's a fabulous theme to bring into it, and certainly aligning it with our own training and, you know, going for that walk, bringing that, you know, and inviting a friend or family member to take that walk with you and having the conversation, you know. In some ways, when you're walking, you don't have to make eye contact, and it can be easier for people to have that conversation.

Yeah.

I think that's so connected with nature theme will, you know, work beautifully, especially with a day like today with the sun shining, to get out and enjoy the surroundings and talk and kind of reach out to each other. Yeah, wow.

Well, if you're not connected with UCD yet, I can definitely connect you into UCD. I'm on the staff kind of mental health support panel, and I'm gonna— I'm certainly gonna recommend that we pick up OHANA and run with it.

Yeah, that would be fantastic. The sky's the limit with it, really. And it was— it's funny, even the Royal College of Surgeons, they took it to another level. And maybe it's the kind of medical link, but the welfare officer for the student union, a girl called Anna, I had numerous meetings with her, and she just was just a fabulous person. And she actually went off and because a lot of their students are obviously living abroad and now attending remotely. And she actually put a lot of work into creating a list for me with resources for other countries because that's something we found, I suppose, you know, just a natural kind of progression with our training was that it started to go global. And with the signpost element for us it was important that we fulfilled that. And, you know, to start, it was just for Ireland, so the signposts were all Irish resources and helplines. So, Anna has worked with her colleagues, and we've now got an incredible list put together of various countries' resources, thanks to RCSEI. And we're going to try and add them over time to our website. So, at the moment, we've got the United States and the UK and Ireland covered. So it's an ongoing project to try and kind of make sure we fulfill the 3 steps for everybody. So to do that for other countries will be wonderful.

Fantastic. Yes, because, I mean, certainly if you've got the universities connection, I mean, I don't know about the other universities, but UCD has got kind of like a lot of links with China. and different places around the world. And if you could use those as a springboard through to those different places where thousands of other students are now engaged with the institution, that would be a great way.

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's not just universities. We've had a number of organisations too where they have offices in Japan or Brazil or whatever. And that's something we're looking at. There's a bit more work involved. What we're looking at is the possibility of adding subtitles to our training and to make sure it is created properly with the translation. But yeah, it's kind of, you know, we obviously had plans from day one to try and grow this, but it's the natural kind of growth and kind of people reaching out to us that's been quite amazing. You know, one thing that's happened for us, and I suppose it's a great complaint to have, but when we went somewhat viral back in January, February, our website crashed. I can imagine. And it absolutely wasn't part of the plan. Yeah, the traffic was just crazy, and we were in the process of trying to get it back up and running, and we needed to go on to a new platform. But a random stranger reached out through direct message on Facebook offering to help us. He saw that our website was down, he went to do the training wondering could he help us, and I explained the situation to him and he went, oh well, that's where I specialize, no problem, I'll help you. And he has come on board ever since and put hours into making know, our platform better, and it's now at a level that it can be reached globally and it can work with the numbers that we're seeing. So yeah, the goodwill of people is quite humbling. So it is.

Yeah, that's amazing. And the whole team, I mean, I was looking at the team page on the website as well. I mean, you've got a good number of people involved.

Yeah, there's 16 of us and 16, yeah. 16 of us, and what's really beautiful is, like you'll see from the pictures there, we are literally all age ranges, all walks of life, living all over the country. We've actually never all met. I've only met 2 of the team in person, and I suppose that's somewhat because of the pandemic— well, a lot of it's because of the pandemic, but also because of the reach, because we're literally dotted around the whole country. but also I think because we're all from different backgrounds and stuff, it just brings so many angles to it and so many kind of people's experiences that it kind of created what Ohana Zero Suicide is, as opposed to it being kind of— so how would you put it— kind of, there was a lot of kind of emotion went into it and care. It wasn't looked on as a business any point. For us, it was really important to keep this free. There's no commercial slant to this. It was about educating people and doing— making it accessible for all. And that's something we want to only improve on, is the accessibility of it. And I suppose with there being no hidden agenda, it kind of— it makes it that bit more special, I suppose, for us as a team to work with. And like that, we've actually quite a number of students on the team, and they are the ones currently working on our mental health awareness campaign for the universities now from the week of the 10th of May. And, you know, they're the ones there in the heart of it and know what works. So it's wonderful to get kind of the different views and angles depending on your, you know, your background and the likes. And we're creating Ohana Zero Suicide Day on May 11th, so it'll be a call to action for people to, you know, do our training and reach out to people and show they care. That's our tagline, is show you care, ask the question, make the call. And I suppose, again, in its simplicity, it just speaks for itself with the message that we're trying to get across there. And it's like with the training, as you know, obviously it's short, it's concise, but there's also, as you touched on, it's very interactive in its nature, and there are 3 role plays that you can access during it. You can go through all 3, 1, or 2, it's totally up to you, but the scenarios they show, again, it's what the feedback we're getting is that they just, they just work for people, they really hit home. And, you know, you've got one scenario where there's a college-going student who is struggling, he's a student in accommodation, and his dad realizes there's something up and that he's not himself. And it goes through the conversation that the father and son have. And this gives you pointers on the right thing to say, the direction you should take conversation. The second one is 2 work colleagues that, you know, they're— I wouldn't, from going by it, I wouldn't say they're close, but they, you know, one notices a difference in the other, in kind of he's sitting alone having his lunch, he's not interacting as much as he would, and it's about having that conversation. conversation, and, you know, he's just struggling a little bit. It's not a case that he's, you know, at absolute rock bottom, but there's enough of a difference in his demeanor that this colleague, you know, reaches out to help, and, you know, it takes you through that. And then lastly, and it's something that a lot of people kind of— I can— has pointed out that it's something they never thought of, is it's actually a stranger. It's a taxi driver, With a girl in the back of his cab, and a conversation ensues, and that's something that I suppose it's— that we can all be aware of, is that you don't have to know the person, you know, in some ways they— the fact that you— they don't know you, it might make it easier for them, and, you know, heaven forbid you see them, you know, at a point where they're about to do something, to take their own life, it's— It's then having the confidence and knowing what to do. And, you know, we all— most of us at some point in our life will do a first aid course and be familiar with CPR, and it's just, it's a given, you know, that's— it's a life-saving skill that we should all have. And, you know, the chances are you might never use this, you'd hope to never use it, but just by having it, you could save a life.

Absolutely.

And that's where our training is similar, and And, you know, it's like first aid for mental health, and, you know, it's a skill, it's a life skill that we should all have. And, you know, it just creates a confidence just having that training done and being educated in this space that, you know, if the time arises that you need to use it, you know what to do. And it's— look, you're by no means an expert, like, let's call a spade a spade, it's 20 to 40 minute training, you know, but what also we found is a lot of people that do our training reach out to us looking to know what else can they do, how else can they educate themselves in this area, and the NOSP have fabulous training, STAR training, on offer now as well, and that takes about 2 and a half hours to complete. and it's, you know, it's probably the next step to go if you want to further educate yourself in this space, and especially now while there's no face-to-face training available, it's a fabulous course, and we have that linked actually on our website on the bottom of our resources page for people. So it's wonderful to work with the NOSP and helping each other, and that's something that I think, you know, is necessary, and it's certainly the angle we take on it is that, you know, there are so many amazing mental health charities out there, and I think possibly over 500 are registered, and we, you know, purposely did have not registered as a charity because we feel there's enough of them and they do amazing work, but I think there's an opportunity to work together. We all have a common cause, and by actually helping each other, you know, I think we're a lot stronger, aren't we, together than trying to kind of put out a version of each other, and that's something you know, I've learned during this is that, you know, it's trying to kind of reach out to these other organizations and make them aware of what we have. And, you know, for us, we're happy for anybody to share our training. We're happy for anybody to put their own kind of story around this and the likes, use their branding with this. For us, it's about spreading the word. There's no other hidden agenda for us. And the more we can work with other organizations, the further the reach.

And I think that's what caught me when I saw your training. You know, I mean, like, Pieta House is in that space, and I mean, but they would be a referral path from this. So, I mean, they're very complementary. You know, everybody's in that suicide prevention space, but Everybody's doing different things, but why not actually join all those dots? Yeah, they're not very joined at the moment, are they?

They don't seem to be. Now look, I'm very new, I'm the rookie in this, so I am, and there's a lot of people, you know, more knowledgeable in this space, but that's certainly my observation in the limited time I've been working on this.

But I'll tell you what, there's not a lot of people in this space that reached this many people this fast in Ireland. So, you know, you should kind of— that's a huge thumbs up. But you got pulled into some European thing recently. Tell us about that.

Yeah, wow, it was quite the email to receive. I got an email to our Ohana Zero Suicide account from the European Parliament, from Maria Walsh looking to know if we would partake in a roundtable discussion where they're trying to create a campaign year, European Year of Mental Health, Good Mental Health.

Right.

So I attended that and actually managed to give my tuppence worth at it, but yeah, it's a fabulous initiative and it's very much what we just touched on, It's about creating an all-of-Europe approach to good mental health, and a big part of this meeting was—

Brilliant.

Seriously, Joe, at a whole different level. And it was also, it was about, it was about kind of encouraging all these different organizations that were in attendance to work together and share what they have or what they, you know, have learned and have available. and see if we can all work together. So it's being submitted to get clear go-ahead, so it's quite exciting. I'm looking forward to any more further meetings now on this, so I am. But yeah, to get an invite such as that, it's amazing really to think that we, you know, were seen obviously somewhere on some social media platform, I can only presume. And to be invited on the back of that was amazing.

That's amazing. Yeah. So are you doing— have you got kind of analytics set up on the Ohana website to see where your traffic is coming from? So, you know, if you start seeing that, you know, you're getting hits originating in Czechoslovakia or whatever, that you can kind of go and, you know, bump that up or kind of connect with somebody an organisation in a source area for traffic that's coming in?

Yeah, it's a bit of a bone of contention at the minute because unfortunately the analytics go to the Zero Suicide Alliance and their platform they're using is not working properly. So it's a work in progress with them at the moment, and as soon as that's back up and running, we will have access to that type of detail. we're also trying to work with— I call him our guardian angel— but our tech whiz that's been helping us to see if we can kind of do something similar from our own website as well. But yeah, it would be fabulous to get that type of— that level of detail. So it would, because I think it would help us to, you know, kind of facilitate the various directions that we see our training going in. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But yeah, no, unfortunately at the minute we're limited.

We're limited.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so, you know, I don't know how many people are going to listen to this podcast, but if somebody wanted to help, um, are there any specific asks at the moment, um, for, for Ohana, you know, as an organization or whatever? You know, what are you looking for?

Yeah, well, I suppose that the The main and first ask is to do our training, you know, and that's the simple ask. And apart from that, it's helping us to spread the word. If you've got contacts or are involved in an organization, be that a university or business or anything like that, sports club, anything, it's to help us spread the word. And, you know, the more people we can get to do our training, the better. I suppose from a kind of development perspective, it's— I was only talking to this with my fellow directors this morning, and in part, you know, there's so many things we'd love to do and love to achieve with this and to grow it in different directions, but what's happened organically so far has been so special and so amazing that you know, we're kind of— we're going to continue in that direction, um, because it just— there's this natural ripple effect that is so apparent. Um, but I think, I suppose, what we'd love to do, um, in time is develop a training for kind of teens, transition year students. Um, it's a— it's an age group that I think could really, really benefit from a similar type of training. and we've started conversations with the Zero Suicide Alliance to see if it's something we could do in partnership again together. And so yeah, so if there's anybody with deep pockets that can help us to try and fund the likes of this, you know, as I said, we're not-for-profit, there's no hidden agenda with us, all, you know, anything, any money, those are grants or any help assistance we can get from that perspective, it will be put straight back into developing and, you know, furthering our reach and enhancing the training, really.

That's amazing. I mean, because is this completely voluntary at the moment?

Oh, 100%. Yeah, totally voluntary.

Everybody's putting all their time in and effort, kind of?

Yeah, and to be fair, pretty much up to this point, it's been predominantly self-funded as well. So it's been our pockets that have got it to they're nicely emptied now, so we're not going to be able to sustain that. So we are kind of starting to look at kind of what other options are out there with grant aid and the likes. And, you know, I think it's, you know, I even, I had Stephen Donnelly, our Minister for Health, his advisor contacted me there recently, and we're going to have a conversation with Stephen soon, I think. So again, it's great that these people, that we're on their radar, and see if we can, you know, work together from that perspective. Because look, you know, there's no doubt that this training will make a difference, and it already is. So it's just to try and, you know, figure out how— like, for us, the most important thing is to keep it free and keep it accessible. So to try and, you know, maintain that is is, you know, the area we're kind of exploring at the minute. But we will do it, it's just a matter of how.

And maybe look to European funding as well, given that you're now into the European connections.

Yeah, quite possibly, quite possibly. Obviously that campaign is at very early stages, but I think there could be opportunity there as well.

Yeah, so the website says this training is recommended for persons over 18, so is that kind of is that where it's aimed at, 18 to any age?

Oh yeah, we went through it with the National Office of Suicide Prevention, and that was their preference, is that it's kept for that age group. So, you know, adult age group, and that's where, you know, a separate training, I suppose, you know, for kind of younger people and, you know, probably talking transition years would be the most obvious one that, you know, it would be suitable for that kind of year. It's, I suppose, to create it that maybe that the role plays are a little bit more kind of suitable and that they could relate to them better. And it was actually one suggestion by our tech whiz was that we could make it into a gaming-like format, which I just thought was so clever. You could, you know, obviously a lot of our youth and the constant rows in my house with my own children, but gaming is such a big part of their life and it's, you know, I think if you did create it in that way, it would— they would be taking in the information without even realizing it. And so that's something that I look forward to exploring further.

I mean, gamification for engagement of online kind of learning. is phenomenally powerful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not that I'm a fan, but it doesn't detract from the importance of the message to kind of equate game.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, I think it engages, and that's the thing you want.

Yeah, I think they'll absorb the information without even realizing it, and, you know, I suppose that in itself will work because it'll just make, you know, create a bit of awareness.

Yeah, so ohana.ie, O-H-A-N-A dot I-E, is the website. Why Ohana? What does Ohana mean?

Ohana is family— sorry, the Hawaiian word for family. And for us, I suppose it's meaning family in the larger sense. And, you know, it kind of links to the whole showing we care, so it it's, you know, showing we care for our family, whether that be our work family, our, you know, immediate family, our friendship family, and beyond. So that's where the Ohana— Angeline, who was one of our founding members, or was our founding member, came up with the Ohana name. And it's not something we use because obviously there'd be copyright issues, but you might be familiar with the Lilo and Stitch Yes. And he had a really powerful line in that, that was kind of part of our reasoning, was, um, ohana, meaning family, where nobody gets left behind. And our training is all, you know, it's, it's, um, it's about looking out for each other and taking care of each other, um, and it's so important, you know, that we do that, um, so it is So that's where the name came from.

Yeah, well, that's it. And I mean, isn't that what education's about as well? You know, looking out for each other, helping each other grow and develop in a kind of safe space. And absolutely, I mean, this just sits in such an important place. I had to talk to you. There was no way you could come and talk to me. to us about this when I saw one.

Yeah, no, and it's funny because when you reached out, it is a training and it is a form of education. It wasn't something that I had thought of. I hadn't thought of us as an educator, but, you know, after speaking with you, you know, you're right, it is a form of education and it's a really, really important form and a powerful form. And, you know, the more we talk about mental health and suicide, you know, the more the stigma is reduced. And, you know, I kind of— I suppose it just will have a knock-on effect on helping in this space. And, you know, yes, we've come on leaps and bounds, you know, in recent years, and there's a lot more openness, but there's a lot more work to be done in it. that is where the education is needed. And because, you know, there, there, you know, maybe this isn't the correct term, but there is an ignorance among some people, and it's nearly a fear because of this ignorance towards suicide. And, you know, the more we can, you know, roll out this training and, you know, start these conversations, I think the more impact, you know, we'll have in this space.

When I asked you to give me your plus one on the form that we asked you all to fill in, the plus one you gave was what you said earlier on about when you greet a person, say, how are you, really mean it and stuff like that. But I guess the real plus one for certainly any adult educators who are listening today would be shareohana.ie with your class, with your network, Put it on your LinkedIn profile, share it with everybody, and do it today. Do it just after you've listened to this podcast. Dig the link out, share it, send it out to your class or whatever. Encourage people to take this training because it could be the most important thing you did ever. If it saves one person's life, it could.

I've seen a few people make a similar comment on LinkedIn when they've shared our— so you get a personalized certificate at the end of our training, and that's what some of you might have seen, some of your listeners might have seen being shared on social media. But a number of people have made that comment, is, you know, it's the best 30 minutes I have spent in a long time. You know, it's a— you know, what you learn in such a short space of time with the training is just invaluable. So it is. And I suppose it's the best way of us spreading the word is by people, you know, telling, sharing the fact that they've done the training after they've done it, but also encouraging others to do it. And it's fabulous to see, especially on LinkedIn, I'm seeing a lot of kind of, oh, I'm going to go and do it today. And as you touched on there, it's about doing it today. You know, we're all great at putting things off. and on the long finger and saying, oh, I must do that. This is— you can— 25 minutes, 30 minutes is what the majority of people are able to do this training in, and we can all find that. So yeah, don't put it off because the difference between doing it today and tomorrow could be a life, you know, and that's the reality of it because that's the impact this training is having.

I'm thrilled you came on. I'm so glad you came and shared the story, and I mean, I can only see this getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And, you know, hopefully it will. I mean, it's awful that it has to, but it's so important and it's just going to make so much of a difference. So thank you for coming on today, Clover. Really appreciate it.

Thank you so, so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Okay, and we'll wrap it up there.