Video Episode 8 - Dr Dee McGillicuddy on educational values, and making a difference...

Hi, this is the Plus One Podcast, and my name is Joe Houghton. Today I'm honored to be speaking to Dee McGillicuddy, who was recently a recipient of UCD's highest Teaching Excellence Award, and her work has also been nominated, I believe, and she'll probably tell us about this in a little while, for a European award by UCD. And, you know, as I've asked my network, who should I talk to for the podcast, Dee's name kept coming up. And I know of Dee, and I've been on a few Zoom sessions with Dee through the Innovation Academy and stuff like that, but I've never really had a chance to sit down and talk to her. So I've really been looking forward to this hour. Dee's background is in DESH, which, those of you who are not familiar with the Irish education system, is— well, I'll let Dee explain it. She can explain it better than me, probably. But it's more disadvantaged kind of areas, schools and students. Primary school teaching, I think, was where Dee started. But she's done the whole master's in education and PhD in education. I think you called yourself an accidental PhD. There's a story there. And your work seems to be focused around children, marginalized groups like the Traveller community and stuff like that. And it took you— I see it took you 7 years to get the PhD, so there's a story there as well. In her 2-word introduction, Dee describes herself as empathetic and inspiring, and certainly both of those words definitely hold true from the interactions we've had so far. So, I mean, welcome to the podcast, Dee. It's great to finally have a chance to have a chat with you.

Oh, thanks, Joe. Oh my God, I'm actually mortified, but thank you for that lovely introduction. Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it's strange to sit on this side of a conversation because usually I'm the person who asks the questions.

Yeah.

But I've been really looking forward to speaking with you too, Joe. I mean, we just had a quick chat there and like, you are inspiring in, in the work that you do and the way you connect with people and bring people together. So I'm absolutely delighted and honored to partake in this podcast alongside all And your other fellow podcast invitees. So thank you very much for having me.

I mean, I'm like a kid in a sweet shop at the moment because, I mean, I'm just lining up all these interviews with these amazing educators and getting to talk to them. And yeah, it's a constant buzz for me at the moment. Yeah, I'm loving it. So, I mean, you're a teacher. You started out in primary school, and I know on the questionnaire survey thing that I sent out, one of the things you put in there was that 2 of your primary influences for going into teaching were your primary school principal. Now, that's a while ago, isn't it? And also—

It's not that long ago. I'm not that old.

And your Jobstown principal as well. So tell us about these 2 inspiring people and how they kind of influenced your life.

Yeah. So I grew up in, I suppose, a rural community, if you like, on the outskirts of Dublin.

Right.

But yeah, still very rural. And I went to a typical rural school where there were 4 teachers, which would have been big in terms of rural schools. And so I grew up and came through school with a class of 12. And within that, there was a huge diversity in terms of, you know, my classmates and their backgrounds. And I always had an interest in education and being a teacher. I think I've always wanted to be a teacher. And my little daughter actually at the moment is kind of showing similar kind of interests, which is lovely. But when I was 12, when I was in school, I used to be the person who went and helped the other children. Maybe I'd finish my work quite quickly, and, you know, I often got to sit down with my classmates and help them. Or I'd go down to the infant class when I was in 3rd and 4th class to help the infants and the infant teacher, and I just used to love it, you know. And so when I went to post-primary school, then I had to get— I was shipped out of the community, which is an interesting experience, I think. to go to post-primary school because we didn't have a post-primary school nearby as a rural community. And, um, so when I went into post-primary school, I used to go down and spend my summers in the primary school helping out.

Right.

Doing everything. So helping in the classrooms and doing the roll book for Mr. Keegan, who was my former primary school principal. And actually met him recently enough. And it was just lovely to see him, you know, because he's had a big impact. And actually, all the teachers in St. Martin's Primary School in Brittas had a huge impact on my life and my journey, certainly to where I am now. And I think the thing about him was he nurtured that interest, you know, he spotted it in me and, you know, he certainly encouraged it and was more than welcoming, along with the other teachers. to have me down in the summer helping out in the school. And yeah, it was really formative for me, and it really kind of cemented for me my love of education and really made me determined to become a primary school teacher. So that was my primary school principal, and then I went on an interesting journey into primary school teaching because when I was doing my Leaving Cert, I was actually quite ill, so I ended up in hospital, so I didn't actually get the points to do PATHS or any of those courses to become a primary school teacher. So I got Arts, as we used to call it in UCD, and I remember going— I remember distinctly going to the UCD Open Day when I was in 6th year and saying, I won't be going to UCD, I'll be going to St. Pat's in Drumcondra to become become a primary school teacher. Um, but unfortunately I didn't get the points, so I did end up in UCD and I took the scenic route into primary school teaching. So I did an arts degree and I studied Irish, geography, and German in UCD. And, um, do you know what, it was the best journey. So, you know, taking the scenic route for me was again really formative. Um, and I made the best of friends. I met my husband.

Right.

And, uh, which, you know, Pros and cons there, you know, Joe. He'd say the same. So then, having completed that, then I applied for the HDIP in primary education. It just opened up again in the Irish education system back in 1998, so I applied for that and I got in then to do the HDIP in a place called Freiburg College, which I hadn't heard of until I actually got the place and didn't really know what this Froebel was.

No.

But it turns out, um, Froebel was a really inspirational philosopher in education, particularly early education. And again, had a great time there, a brilliant training experience. And from that, then I ended up going for my job in Jobstown in Tallaght and in with Mr. Michael Murphy. And we all refer to Michael as, or we refer to our time as the Michael Murphy School of Education. And, you know, he was just a really inspirational leader and a wonderful, wonderful principal and a wonderful, wonderful person.

And what made him an inspirational leader? What was it that, you know, why? Because I love this because when I teach leadership in my classes, I tell people, think about somebody that you found inspirational, and what was it about them?

Yeah, I think he was just very nurturing. You know, he, he'd spot an opportunity and he'd spot a talent, and he'd give people then the freedom to go and try things. You know, he wasn't afraid to let people take a risk, right? And I think that's very liberating for— it takes courage for him to do that. And then it's very liberating for the people then he allows to do that, you know. And also, he was a bit of a crack and a bit of a laugh.

Yeah.

And we all had a bit of fun. And I think, you know, fun and leadership and fun in our working environments, I think we underestimate the power of that. And he was just fantastic. And then he encouraged me then to, you know, to do my master's and gave me opportunities and, and helped me along the way there as well. So, um, yeah, he was just a wonderful, wonderful man and a wonderful leader. And, uh, I, I definitely think one of my mentors. And it's really funny because when I would ever say that to Michael, he'd, he'd squirm. He doesn't like me saying that.

Right.

Um, but he, he really truly, without, uh, without realizing it, he's had actually a profound impact on the education system because many of the teachers who've worked in Jobstown have actually gone across the country and become leaders in different schools across the country. And that has really stemmed from him and his leadership in the school.

Wow. What a lovely testament to him. And Mr. Keegan as well. That's fantastic, isn't it? What else has inspired you on your educational journey? You know, those 2 people certainly did, but what else took you to this place of kind of spending your life on, you know, helping other people and inspiring other people?

The children, the children in the classrooms, the communities that I've had the absolute honour and privilege of working in. And, you know, I think they have inspired me. And I think when I started— when I got into teaching initially, I thought I'd go in and change the world, you know. And I think any aspiring teacher that you meet, the majority want to make a difference in people's lives, you know, and that's fundamentally why we go into teaching. And when you go into a system and you realize that actually some of the things that are happening within the system aren't actually helping at all, to change children's lives, and, you know, you become quite frustrated by it. And that has really inspired me on my journey, you know. So I spent 10 years working in Jobstown in a wonderful school, St. Thomas', and met beautiful, wonderful families and very challenging circumstances for some of those families. And then for other families, you know, they've just so inspiring and inspirational in what they've done and for their children and for themselves, given very difficult circumstances in some instances. And that inspires me, you know, and I carry that with me. I actually carry it as part of my responsibility in anything I do. So when I'm in the education system and even working now in academia, you know, I kind of always come back to that and say, you know, is, is what I'm doing helping me make their lives any different, you know? And if it isn't, then I have to change something. And I think that's fundamentally how I try and think about what I'm doing, and it brings authenticity for me.

Yes.

As an educator. Um, and also, you know, I have that all the time in my backpack, you know, is this making a difference? And if it's not, then there's something I need to do to change that.

Yeah. And I mean, of itself, that's inspiring. I mean, you wrote last June for the Irish Times, I was reading earlier on, and then you wrote, it's been well documented by organizations such as Children's Rights Alliance that children are particularly vulnerable with our society, and they've been especially impacted by school closures, including those living in poverty, children who have additional needs, and those who require specialized support and care. So, I mean, it's funny because as an educator, you know, primarily I'm teaching master's students at the Smurfit Business School, and most of them are coming from reasonably privileged backgrounds. They've got all the equipment that they need and all this kind of stuff. Now, I know we have other Aspire scholars and, you know, people coming in who've been given a chance through other channels as well. But it's easy to forget, isn't it, that not everybody does have all the benefits and all the advantages. And I think perhaps some educators in some areas of education kind of don't necessarily see that and perhaps are not informed by that. And that's perhaps a pity.

Yeah, I think it's— yeah, I think it's really important that, you know, people see that. I think, you know, the cracks in inequalities have always been in our education system, and I think maybe it was Michael D. Higgins or Mary Robinson who said, you know, what the pandemic has done is forced us to hold a mirror up and actually look at those, you know, cracks. And they're not very far beneath the surface, you know. And I think anybody who works in in those areas or works with children or young people and families who are living in, you know, really in communities that have a lot of poverty and have known and see this on a daily basis. But I think it's not really within our national consciousness. And, you know, I don't know why that is. And because, you know, there are children who have been impacted, and young people who've been deeply impacted by the pandemic. And, you know, unfortunately, I've heard of former students of mine who have— the pandemic has resulted in them, and, you know, and other factors, and has resulted in them being lost. You know, they've actually taken their lives. And so we're talking about profound poverty that deeply impacts on our children, you know, because these children turn into adults like ourselves.

Yeah.

And, you know, when you're working in those communities and you see it, it's very difficult to sit in a comfortable space with that. And so just to give you an example, when I was working in 6th class, I used to teaching 6th class one year, and I was doing a research project as well at the same time. So I was going to visit a 6th class in a more advantaged area in Dublin. And so I left my 6th class in Jobstown and took off over to this lovely school in South County Dublin and went into the 6th class, and I couldn't get over the difference in the size of the children, their physical space that they were taking, because the children in Jobstown were so small compared to the children in the more advantaged school.

Wow.

And it was a physical representation for me of the impact of poverty on children. And, you know, there are children who have been struggling through the pandemic. I mean, children in the most advantaged families have been struggling, you know. And, you know, the impact of that, I think, will be profound, and I think we need to do something about it as a society. And because otherwise what we will end up with, particularly in those communities that are, you know, socioeconomically disadvantaged, is, you know, a generational lag behind in terms of how we get on with that, you know. and how they get on. So there are serious implications, you know, and I think we're not having those serious conversations to solve those. And I have to say, the Children's Rights Alliance and the Ombudsman have been very vocal, and it's great to hear them vocal and speaking up, particularly for children in more marginalised communities.

Mm-hmm.

But until there's a political agenda to do something about it, you know, I I don't know what, what will happen there, you know. Yeah, yeah, that's—

yeah, it's, it's, it's scary stuff, isn't it? But it's, it's real, and it's—

It's life and death stuff, Joe. It's life and death. And I don't think people— people think about poverty, or they think about, you know, they have this image in their mind, um, but it's actually life and death stuff, you know. And unfortunately, we're losing young people to to death, you know. And so I definitely think, you know, we need to bring it to our social consciousness a little bit more than we are.

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, a couple of my master's students are involved with a startup kind of mental health charity called Tribe at the moment, and I'll put the links in the show notes for that. And yeah, I mean, I've been involved in suicide prevention for for years with Samaritans and Pieta House and stuff like that. And there is definitely still a huge need for mental health provision, but also just general provision for disadvantaged communities. You've even worked with the Traveller community, haven't you? Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, so I suppose all through my career I've worked with Traveller children, I've had the privilege of working with Traveller children, and they're just wonderful, and their families. And we— so I've worked with them in school, and I also did a study with Professor Dymphna Devine in the School of Education looking at Traveller experiences of their lives. So we used a photo voice methodology to capture, you know, how children were experiencing their lives and experiencing the things they liked about their lives, and then, you know, the things that they found a little bit more challenging. And I suppose, again, you know, what strikes me from that study in particular was, you know, how marginalised and how surveilled and how watched and how controlled the Traveller community are.

And tell me, I mean, there's people outside Ireland who don't know what the Traveller community is. I mean, without— I'll probably be awfully politically incorrect now, but I mean, coming from an English background, this would be like the Gypsy community, would it? These are people who very often are moving around in either caravans or mobile homes, but sometimes have permanent fixtures as well. Is that true? Is that the right—

The Traveller community are an ethnic minority, and they only actually recently received their recognition as an ethnic group.

Okay.

And traditionally, they would have— many would have had a nomadic kind of life, moving around the country, travelling around, and and being allowed to, you know, do work in different communities. But what happened was there were policies then brought in, the Irish government brought in policies then where they wanted to have Travellers settle into communities and not allow them travel around anymore. And as a result of that, I think you know, the housing situation for Travellers has been absolutely shocking. And, you know, there are many Traveller families who live in poverty, many who may be homeless. And at the same time, the Traveller community is not homogeneous. There are also Travellers who are settled within our communities. And so it's a diverse group, it's not just a one—

Right.

you know, we think of Travellers as just one type, but actually it's, you know, they're a very diverse group of people and there are some amazing Traveller activists and spokespeople. And one person in particular comes to mind is Dr. Hannah McGinley, who I have the absolute privilege of working, learning from.

Mm.

And again, somebody who's really important in the work that she doing with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, and she's reviewing at the moment the curriculum and having a look at Traveller representation within that. And so, you know, I think there's amazing Traveller spokespeople who really highlight the issues and at how marginalised a group the Traveller community are. And when I was working in Marino Institute of Education actually started working on a project where we were looking at how to bring travellers into primary school teaching, so to become a primary school teacher, and we were writing a pathway for that. So that project has been undertaken at the moment in Marino, and I think it's having great success, which is fantastic.

Fabulous. Yeah, and Jen Lynch, my first interviewee works at Marino as well.

Oh yeah, I think she works in the college. This is the institution. There's 2 different—

Oh, there's 2 different— all right, okay.

But they're very close to each other. And then, yeah, and then in UCD now, I'm hoping to get involved with a project which is looking at something similar at the moment as well. So, you know, again, you know, it's that marginalized voice, and it goes back to the children that I can think of my head as I'm speaking to you, who again have had an impact and inspire me to do better for them, you know. And I think about how marginalized they were in, in, you know, in terms of how they were viewed in, in community and how I'd like to help change that. But, you know, there's a mantra, nothing about us without us, you know. So I'm very conscious of never standing up and taking the voice of somebody who's from that community. I think really for me, it's about trying to give space for that voice to come forward, if that makes sense.

Oh yeah, that's very powerful. Yeah, that's giving people a voice. That seems to be a common thread that I'm hearing as I get more into this education space and listen to people who really know what they're talking about. I still feel like I'm just learning so much by talking to you and talking to all these incredible educators, but that seems to be one thing that comes through. The sage on stage seems to be dead.

Yeah.

And this idea of student voice and student representation in a real way in the and this co-created learning space idea, which really to me was frighteningly new before I started looking at education at the moment.

Yeah. Well, I think it's very tied to, well, from my perspective working in education, where I suppose young people from age 18 and younger.

Yeah.

And it's very much tied to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. You know, I think it's really important that whoever is engaging within a process has a voice, you know. And it sounds, you know, it sounds very simple, you know, let's just give people a voice, you know. But actually, we don't do enough of it in education across all of the sectors. But, you know, talking from my own experience or speaking from my own experience. And, you know, that again is something that I'm quite passionate about, you know, children's rights and, you know, ensuring that they have a voice and that they have a space to participate and also that their views are taken on board. You know, it's very easy just to listen and say yes, yes, yes, without actually acting upon it, you know.

Yeah.

And Professor Laura Lundy, actually, for anyone who's listening, and interested in that, does fantastic work around the importance of rights, voice, participation, and has written recently about tokenism. You know, oftentimes we dismiss something as being tokenistic, but actually maybe there's a power to tokenism. You know, maybe it's a move in the right direction as opposed to being dismissive of it. But certainly I think it's important that creating that space for voice becomes a key part of what we do in education. And I think we actually need a lot more of it at third level, you know, or higher education. I think we need a lot more of student voice being enabled, listened to, and acted upon, you know.

Yeah, I remember, I mean, years ago, you know, when I was in big business and running international multinational teams and stuff, there was that phrase, kind of voice of the customer, VOC. We always used to try and apply that to projects and stuff like that. So it's the same thing, isn't it? Voice of the customer.

And you know, Joe, that's really interesting because this commodification of education concerns me. And I do hear, I have heard of students being referred to as clients or customers, you know, and I think that's— what's that signaling for me is the marketization of education, or the neoliberal kind of underpinnings of what we're doing.

Right.

And I think that has— the pandemic has absolutely exposed that, you know, this idea that education is there to serve, you know, that we're there to provide a service, and, you know, it's that consumerist kind of interaction between, you know, the teacher and the students. And that concerns me because that's not what education should be. You know, education is more than an exchange, or let's talk about third level, it's more than accessing content on Brightspace and then writing an essay about the content on Brightspace. It's about the interactions, the human connections, the deeply relational pedagogic interaction between the teacher and the students, and whether that is the sage on the stage or whether it's a more active, dynamic learning environment. And, you know, students are learning all the time through those interactions. And once we— if we sway towards that more consumerist language and talk about clients and customers, which we are, and is happening, you know, that is the wrong way to look at what we're doing in education. For me, education is the foundation upon which we build our society. It's the cornerstone of what we're doing. And if we don't have a strong education system with strong values to underpin what we're doing, then we don't understand who we are as a society, and we don't understand who we are as human beings within the broader world, you know, as global citizens. And, you know, I think we need to be really careful and have— I think the pandemic has exposed for me the need to have a conversation at societal level around the importance of education and what role it plays within our society, what value we place on it, and what we need to do to protect it and not drive it towards that consumerist, client, customer-based approach that I often hear spoken about. And one of my colleagues, Dr. Shane Bergin, has actually called for, along with other colleagues, a citizens' assembly on education. And I think the government have committed to doing that, but I certainly hope they follow through because it's urgently required.

Yeah, wow, that— I love that you challenged me there, if you like, with that statement, because I mean, if I think about the kind of student cohorts that come, you know, into my class, for instance, and they come to do a Master's in Project Management. I suspect that most of them are coming to Smurfit as a customer, and they're coming to get a Master's from Smurfit, which they see as a door-opening tool to, you know, I don't know, a graduate role with Ernst Young or whatever. Yeah. So how do we move them from that mindset of, I'm paying 12 grand to come to Smurfit for a year or 2 years to get a master's degree, and that's a transactional customer delivery model, isn't it, to the deeper learning model? Is this where Flourish comes in? Is this where your— safe space and the stuff comes in, or is it something different?

Oh, that's a good question. Oh yeah.

I mean, this is where you got your— this is one of the key things that got you your Teaching Excellence Award and has nominated you up into the European Teaching Awards and stuff like that, isn't it? But I think it's really important, this, because I mean, I think a lot of educators would feel somewhat challenged by what you just said, but also resonate with it. And I'm thinking, yeah, I agree with you, you know, that absolutely learning and creativity and all that stuff is the fundamental raison d'être for education, but it's not really the reality when you get into the classroom at Smurfit. You know, the reality is they feel like they're customers. And how do I— so how do I change that? How do I, as a cutting, as an educator at the coalface with students in front of me each week, how do I change their perception and perhaps my perception of that in a practical manner?

Yeah, really interesting question. I think what I do is I, from the very— so the students I work with are PME students, so professional master's in education students. So they're coming in training to become post-primary school teachers.

Okay.

And I usually have them maybe week 1 or 2 of when they've actually come into the program, um, in UCD. And I'd be maybe their first— one of their first lectures. And the very first lecture, I, I actually challenge them to think about what education is and why— what's what it's for. And then, you know, my second lecture is questioning, you know, why do we have curriculum and whose curriculum is it anyway?

Hmm.

You know, my third lecture is why are we doing what we're doing when we have so many social inequalities within our system? You know, why are we doing that in schools? You know, so I think for educators it's about questioning and just, just, you know, questioning putting those questions to our students, you know, and I think you can do that no matter what your subject is. You know, if you're preparing students for medicine, I know again would be— my sister works in the School of Medicine, and again, there would be that kind of transactional thing around, I need to become a doctor, so I need to pass this exam, so you need to help me.

Yeah.

Whatever you need to do to get me through this exam, you know. But maybe we need to go like, you know, why do we feel like this? You know, and, you know, what's your role as a doctor within society, and how is that profession viewed? And when you meet a patient, you know, what kind of an interaction is that you're having? You know, is it a caring, empathetic kind of an interaction, or is it a purely transactional interaction? You know, because ultimately, whatever you teach, fundamentally, it's down to human relationships. And I think whatever we're doing in our teaching in the university, we're teaching the fundamentals of relationships as human beings, you know.

Yeah.

And I think going to my Flourished initiative, yeah, that for me was about providing space for the students in the lecture theatre when we were actually face-to-face, just to take 5 minutes, 10 minutes, just to be human and connect as human beings. And for it not to be coming in and engaging in that transaction between content and listening and passive engagement.

Hmm.

It was based, you know, how do we bring people into the room? You know, because oftentimes when you're traveling, and we were just talking about traveling between Zoom calls now, but when you're traveling from lecture to lecture, you're just physically bringing yourself to a space. But have you actually brought yourself in all different dimensions of who you are into that space? So Flourish for me was giving that space to students at the beginning of the lecture, just actually to connect with themselves. Now, some of them were looking at me going, who is your one at the top of the lecture theatre asking us to do this? At one stage, one lecture, I had them all down. I had 100 and whatever students, and I brought them all down to the front of the lecture theatre, you know, and I just said, you know, would you be— would you have a go with this and see what happens? I'd say now they were looking at me going, what is she doing? You know, but it was actually about bringing them present into the room and then allowing them the space to connect with themselves. Because I really don't think— and this is from the Innovation Academy— what I've learned is you can't connect with others until you connect with yourself. You know, and as human beings, you need to be able to connect with others, and you need to put yourself first in that kind of So rewind a little bit then.

So where did the idea for Flourish come from and what was its gestation and how did you develop it and trial it and put it into practice? Tell us the story there.

Okay. And just to say, it's still kind of early stages with it, but I have a plan for my innovation fellowship about what I'd like to do with it. And so it started really from my own journey in the Innovation Academy and meeting the wonderful people who brought us on that journey.

Yes. I think you were on the course probably the year before me, I think.

Yeah, I think I was just— and we were face-to-face at that stage. And I just found the whole experience very rejuvenating, you know. What I valued from my experience was that time and space to think about how we can come together as community, and then how we can build a values-based approach to working as community. And, you know, through that, tap into our creativity. And then, you know, for me, then it's about then going out and leading that in education.

Yes.

They're kind of the fundamental pillars for me within the Flourish initiative. So I started, first of all, running monthly flourish sessions, for want of a better word, with my colleagues. And I was so surprised at how many people turned up and engaged, and it was wonderful. Like, it was lovely. It was just a lovely way to connect.

And when you say your colleagues, what other teachers?

Oh, this was in my school, in UCD. Yes. So I invited my colleagues to participate in my Flourish initiative. And the first day I kind of stood in the room going, oh my God, nobody's going to turn up. This is going to be a disaster. And fair play.

Did anybody come to my party?

Yeah, exactly. It was like a birthday party again. God. But fair play, like people took a risk and they came. We just did different things, you know, tapping into ourselves, tapping into our well-being. And one of the most impactful ones was just going for a walk around the lake, the new lake down at— the new lake down beside the engineering building. And I think the reason that was so impactful was because people actually took time out just to go and walk around the lake, you know, and just— Engage in an exercise where they just actually sat with themselves and walked and, you know, thought about the different things that were going through their heads and kind of mindfully engaged in that process. So like, that was one of the most impactful activities for people, and that says a lot actually about how intensified our working lives in education have become over the past—

Yeah.

years, you know, that going for a little mindful walk has such an impact on people and an emotional— evoking an emotional reaction. And so that speaks to me a lot.

Does that get me away from the laptop and the Zoom camera?

Yeah, yeah, exactly though, Joe. And like, again, a concern of mine will be, you know, this increase in productivity that we've had in terms of, you know, it's working out great for all the institutions and the businesses, isn't it? Because they've people in front of laptops, they now for a solid 9 hours, were you saying, Joe? 10 hours some evenings.

Yeah.

You know, working like they're, they're getting their money's worth. So what happens now? What has happened to the spaces in between? And those spaces in between are so important. They're so important as educators because it's only when we have those in-between spaces that we can actually stop and think about what it is we want to do and be creative in that. And I learned that from the Innovation Academy. So then, and with my Flourish initiative, I decided to try it with the students. And like that, at the beginning of every lecture, I just made a space. We took a different theme every week, and we just explored that as part of some of the activities I did. And then I, then I went into my lecture and we did our lecture.

Yeah, then you did your lecture.

Everyone was more open to the lecture then. Now, they probably switched off after 5 minutes, but, you know, you know, it kind of— and the feedback from the students was incredible. And so this year, because we moved online, I actually put some work into putting an online resource up there for students. So I, in a module I was teaching, co-teaching with my fantastic colleague Rachel Farrell, I put up 10 weeks of Flourish activities for students to use, and they could opt in. Yeah, they could opt in, it was there for them. So, you know, as an educator, and as this year anyway, you don't know if people are engaging at all, like at all, right?

Yeah.

You can look at your Brightspace statistics, but you're not too sure if people are engaging. So anyway, I put up 10 weeks of different activities, mindfulness, self-care, you know, different things that the students could use just to give them a 5 minutes to themselves, a space for themselves. Because if I'm feeling it, my God, these students who are on the front line teaching in post-primary schools are 100% feeling it a lot more than I am.

And just to make this clear, so this is for teachers. So you're calling them students, but they're students.

Yeah, student teachers, if you like.

So if you like, people who are listening to this podcast are probably Educators, a lot of them. So is this stuff that they could take and apply and use?

Absolutely.

Are you going to make this available online? Have you got a Flourish website or are you running a series of workshops? Because I want to come.

Well, thanks, Joe. No, I have nothing done about that. No.

Well, maybe that's something we should talk about.

Maybe it is.

I could help you. I could certainly help you get online with this.

Thanks, Joe. But, um, I put all the stuff up and there were 10 weeks of different activities there, self-care and all the rest, and I wasn't sure had students engaged with it. But actually, Rachel, who I mentioned, told me that at one of the meetings that they'd had with the students, that the students actually were asking for more of it in the second trimester because I wasn't working with them, you know, and I just thought, wow, okay. Someone engaged with it, you know, and it's helping. So even if it helps— and I think this is really important as an educator— even if it helps 1 or 2 people, that's making an impact.

Yeah.

I think sometimes we think we need to hit everyone, you know, we need everyone has to be on board and everyone has to be enjoying it. But actually it's about the 1 or the 2, because oftentimes those 1 or 2 people are, are the people who need it most, you know. They're what they're looking for, you know, and you've put it there for them and they seek it and then they use it, you know. But for me, the power of this is the ripple effect. So I have now had students, student teachers, who are on the PME who've come back to me to tell me that they're now using this approach in their classrooms with their students. So it's a ripple into the education system, you know.

Yeah.

And it's funny, it's just a tiny pebble you're dropping in. And that ripple out of that, I think, can be profound. Yeah.

Wow.

So, and actually another student told me she was doing it with her students and actually with her family, you know, so—

Oh my goodness.

Just, you just don't know, you know, what you're— if what you're doing is going to— and you'd hope it's a positive, a positive impact, but how it's going to actually ripple down into, into people's lives.

I mean, this idea of plus one. which I picked up from the UDL Digital Badge, you know, just make one change.

Yeah.

But as an educator, to make change in your teaching space is scary.

Yeah.

Isn't it?

Oh yeah.

Well, I don't know whether it is for you, but it always is for me. I mean, I don't know whether that's imposter syndrome coming out or whatever, but I'm very often feeling quite challenged about making a change because I'm in this space that I kind of know, and it's a kind of relatively safe space because I kind of know the way it'll go. If I introduce change or if I introduce something that I don't know how it's going to go, that can— what will the students say? And what if I crash and burn? But you've actually kind of embraced that by the sound of it. Yeah.

Oh, it's a scary space. I mean, I remember standing at the front of one of the big lecture theaters in science with our gorgeous bunch of students, and I was standing there and I was just about to kind of launch into the first exercise, and I was thinking, oh my God, I'm standing in front of 100 people here and I'm going to ask them to do something different, you know. And all I— I love Brené Brown.

Yeah.

I'm a Brené Brown sucker.

Yeah.

And the idea of taking risk and being vulnerable, you know, and I think if you acknowledge and tell people you're being— listen, and I openly said that to the students, said, listen, I'm gonna take a risk here. It might fall flat on its face. I say all this, I'm very open. It's probably my problem. But, you know, it might fall flat on my face, and please give me feedback after, but would you give it a go and see what you think? You know, and I had to say that to them. the day I brought them down to the front of the lecture theatre, yeah, they're all going, what the— you know, and I think if you're open about your vulnerability and you're not— and you don't fear it, and actually sometimes if you just say it out and say, listen, I'm going to take a risk here, let's see what happens, and you say that out and you say it to the students and they become part of that journey and part of taking that risk, and I think it's not as scary, you know. And then if it fails, it fails, you know. I had no idea Flourish would—

Yeah.

Um, kind of grow the legs that it has, you know. I, I really honestly, Joe, had no— I didn't really see my own value in what I was doing with it, you know. And it isn't until other people say to you that you go, oh my gosh, or you get the feedback from the students, or, you know, you get the lovely comments And that you kind of go, okay, you know, yeah, there is— it does have value.

Yeah. And I mean, so is it— have you exposed Flourish outside your own classroom yet to, you know, so if there's somebody listening today who wants to find out more or wants to try it, how do they find out about Flourish? Or is that part of your fellowship? Is that what you're— maybe part of what you're going to do with the summer is bring this out into a public space?

Yeah, I hadn't— again, I hadn't really thought of it. I actually presented the concept at FALTA, so for any teachers who might be listening and interested, there is a video of me somewhere really badly presenting it.

Well, maybe send me the link and I'll put it up in the show notes because I'm sure—

I'll send you the link. I'm sure it's still up there, but I did present the concept, so it's there for anybody who'd like to have a look at it. But in terms of the fellowship, what I would like to do now is look at more formally embedding this approach in our programs. So making a formal space within the really intensified programs that we have around initial teacher education, specifically to tap into personal growth, personal well-being and creativity, and the value in that is just incredible. And interestingly, the Teaching Council are now releasing new guidelines on initial teacher education and the different component parts that we'd like to embed within it, and creativity is one of those strands. And, you know, well-being is hugely topical. within the education system. And if we don't mind our teachers' well-being, how can we expect to mind our students' well-being? So what I want to do is develop a space and a module that is purely focused on, you know, minding well-being, how to do that, but also how to tap into your creativity and use creative pedagogy as a way of exploring learning in a safe way in a classroom. So sort of integrating both. So that's where Flourish is moving for me at the moment. But I hadn't actually thought anymore about externally doing anything with it. But certainly if anyone was interested in hearing more, please do get in touch.

Yeah. And I mean, it's funny because, I mean, my kind of closing question was kind of, you know, your plus one was creating space to be and think. But that's what you've talked about for the last like 15, 20 minutes, which is brilliant. So yeah, I mean, can people get hold of you, um, email or Twitter or whatever?

Absolutely, yeah. I love, I love hearing from people, so please do get in touch. And you can contact me, um, I'm on Twitter. And the odd time I, I fall off the face of Twitter and take a break from it. Yeah, but, um, but yeah, I'm on Twitter and quite, uh, I'd be on Twitter probably too much, my husband would say. Um, @dmcgillicuddy, and then you can contact me me on my email address as well.

Right, and we'll put those in the show notes.

So that's brilliant.

Yeah, well, that was a couple of minutes ago, that was the alarm going off telling us we'd been on for an hour.

So I can't believe we've been going for an hour.

So I better not take out kind of the whole of your day because I feel like we could just carry on for the rest of the morning. This is wonderful. But I think the Flourish idea is very powerful in its apparent simplicity. But the challenge for a lot of us as educators is to make that change, isn't it? Is to actually, like you say, be brave enough to be vulnerable and try something new with the students that will help them engage in the space better.

Yeah.

I love it. I want to hear more about this. And yeah, I mean, you know, if I can help in any way as you move forward with Flourish. I'd love to be involved with that. It sounds so powerful. I want to hear more to see how I might implement that in my classrooms as well.

And thank you very much for having me on your podcast. I'm deeply honored and privileged.

I don't know. I mean, it's been a super, super hour, and I think people are going to love what you've been sharing with them. So thank you very much for coming on today.

Thank you. Thank you.