Video Season 2 - Episode 1 - Suzanne Buttimer from the Rockwell Music Academy

Hi, my name's Joe Houghton and this is the Plus One Podcast. And my guest today is Suzanne Buttymer, who runs the Rockwell Music Academy. Music or musical? Music Academy. I think that's right, isn't it?

Music Academy indeed, yeah.

Based in Cashel, County Tipperary here in Ireland. Suzanne is a different educator from any of the other guests that we've had on to date. She teaches music, and when I ask people to kind of tick off where they teach, she's got ticked every box apart from university and college. So, we're in a different educational space today, which is lovely because, you know, that's the idea of the podcast, that we talk to lots of different educators. I was at something that we both attended online recently, and Suzanne did a little few-minute inspirational piece, which she's going to share with us again later on. And that's where I kind of like picked up on Suzanne and after that contacted her and said, would she come on? Because it was so different and it was so novel, certainly to me. So that's all about music and one of her approaches to music. But let's kick off with your 2-word inspiration. So you describe yourself as passionate and approachable. Well, I can attest to the second word there, because as soon as I contacted you, you were up for this, which is fantastic. But the first one, the passionate, that's a description word that more than one of the guests on the podcast have used. So let's start there, Suzanne. Why do you need passion in teaching? And welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Joe. I really appreciate the invite. I'm excited to be here. And passionate, I suppose I aim to be convincing in my teaching, and I think in order to be that, I have to share my passion. And for me, passion is more than just a love for the instrument. It's all-consuming, or the subject. So that's what I endeavor to try and share with my students.

And has music always been a thing with you? What, you know, is this something that you kind of thought, I'm going to make a lot of music, a lot of money if I do music, so therefore that's what I'm going to do?

Definitely not money. Let me just say that from the outset. No, I suppose it was always something I was going to do. I was brought up, lucky enough to be brought up in a very musical household where both my parents had a field of, you know, somewhat of music lessons in their background from my grandparents. And, but it was really something that united us, you know, we, every family gathering or, you know, it was always— it was around the piano, not around the table kind of thing, you know?

Yeah.

And I resented that initially, I will say. I think I cried every lesson until I was about 11 and then realized I'm not going to win this battle, am I? So thankful for a mother who sat there and persisted with me. And I suppose the aha moment or whatever came when I could play something that I wanted to play, like, you know, whatever it was, Poptune at the time or something, and I was smitten. And I suppose also then very grateful for different opportunities that arose in my schools that I attended and then the universities that I attended and have shaped my career.

Wow, okay. So, I mean, looking down the LinkedIn profile, the first experience you have in your list of experiences is Warsaw. So, what took you to Warsaw? That's a long way from Tipperary, isn't it?

It is indeed, yeah. That was a life move, really. You know, I would say I'm a very unconventional— I was an unconventional student, and, you know, the way life just took twists and turns. My husband, we got married while in university, so he was doing PhD, and I I had my first child at the end of third year and second child, graduated 36 weeks pregnant with him, and another one 20 months later. And then my husband dropped the bombshell he was going to set up business in Warsaw with the help of Enterprise Ireland. So, we upped and moved with a 3-year-old, 2-year-old, and 5-month-old. So, when we arrived in Warsaw, a bit of a culture shock because, you know, back then, I know it doesn't seem so long ago, but back then it was a map, a 40-page map of the city, and, you know, you're driving on the other side of the road, there you go. So I had to learn a new language, you know, you could talk about a culture shock in every sense of the word. And I suppose I didn't settle there until I got my 3 smallies to preschool and found myself a job. And I started to work as a music specialist for North Anglia, and I just loved it. It was absolutely amazing. It became home, and I had colleagues, and I felt challenged. And yeah, it was a great opportunity.

Fantastic. And what does a music specialist do?

So I had the joy of teaching right across the spectrum. Like, we had an early years campus and right up to International IB. And I suppose as the music specialist, I was kind of providing lessons from right across both sites. And, you know, so I had from, let's say, 2 and a half to 18, every key stage and age. And so it was super, it was absolutely brilliant. Yeah.

And I mean, my brother is a semi-professional musician, and I've seen— so I've seen him go through that process.

Right, yes.

And he plays the viola and the violin and the piano and actually any instrument he picks up, he can play. It's ridiculous.

I'm jealous.

Yeah, but I mean, do you play multiple instruments, or is it just piano? And Does that then translate into kind of being able to teach music? Because you sing as well, don't you? I think I'm seeing—

I saw some music there as well. Yes, yeah, I do. I play several instruments. Am I technically proficient in all of those instruments? No, I would never claim to be.

But I suspect that for 99% of people in the world, they would look at you on any instrument and go, wow, I wish I could do that!

But, you know, there comes a point— well, there came a point for me anyway at university where it was kind of like if I wanted to be able to, you know, take my finals and give myself, you know, the hours that go into— I don't need to tell you the hours that go into practice.

Yeah.

And it really needed to be, you know, I needed to choose. And actually, I ended up ironically doing my finals on harpsichord, which was not my intention at all. I simply discovered that I could read figured bass, which is the notation system for continuo basso and you know, with ease, and ended up having to accompany a priest who had taken some years out to study church music. We got thrown in a room together and that was my final recital, and it was great but wasn't the plan.

No? Oh my goodness. So, you know, if you were on a desert island and you could only take one instrument, what would you take?

Do you know what? I wouldn't. I'm fed up lugging furniture. It would be my voice. Yeah, yeah, you can use that anytime. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And it's an amazing instrument, isn't it?

It's true. Yeah, it's lots to learn though.

I've done a little bit of singing, but I mean, nothing, nothing particularly, you know, particularly good. But, um, but yeah.

I have to give us a party piece.

Oh no, no.

Am I allowed to do that?

I remember years ago we, we were doing some fundraising for, um, Pieta House, in the early days of Pieta House. And we'd done this— we'd set this concert up in Christchurch. And I had a singer booked and she was coming and everything and she was going to sing Hallelujah about halfway through.

Oh, right.

And she rang me 40 minutes before and she'd broken down in the rain. She was, you know, too far away to get there. So I ended up having to do this piece on 40 minutes' notice, having never practiced it with the organist.

Brilliant! I love it, the spontaneity of that.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, the performance is a wonderful thing, isn't it? And I mean, I think you come back to this later on in your Plus One, you know, that you need to perform, you need to project. yourself. There's something very authentic about performing as well as kind of something— it can be a persona, can't it? But it's also— it's got to come from inside.

I don't know. Yeah, I agree. There is a bit of a juxtaposition there, absolutely. And I think that, you know, for performance— I was thinking about this as I was out walking the dog this morning— performance is really like— you get a natural high from it, you know. I'd say in your experience of singing, you know, I know you're saying it's limited, but there is. Why are you drawn back? You know, why do you want to do it? It's a bit like someone that runs marathons, not that I know anything about that, but, you know, let's face it, scientifically it's releasing, you know, the same endorphins, whatever, we're getting that natural high from it. And, you know, that's something I don't think people acknowledge enough, that, you know, we should all be performing.

Yeah, I mean, the way I've always thought of singing is I'm never unhappy when I'm singing.

True.

It's almost impossible to be unhappy.

I agree.

Isn't it?

I actually use that in a warm-up, like try singing while you're complaining. It's a bit of a different tonal type. Yeah, yeah.

And I must admit, when I'm having a down day, one of my techniques, if you like, for getting myself out of that— one is go for a walk with the dog now. We have a new dog puppy now.

Lovely.

But previous to that, it's always been, yeah, you know, sing. just put something on. It might be Dancing Queen or, you know what, it doesn't matter, but just put something on and sing.

But isn't that not where, you know, it's acclaimed across the world? Or that Friday feeling is putting on the tunes, isn't it, in the kitchen? You know, like, life is to be celebrated and music is very much part of that.

Yeah, yeah. And I love the fact that you've come on because, you know, I wanted to include music somewhere in the podcast. So when I saw what you showed, I thought, yes, we can do this, we can do this.

The jigsaw puzzle will come together. Yeah, indeed.

So, I mean, the podcast is around innovative educators, and you do some innovative stuff because I'd never seen what you did before. And I think you're going to maybe show us that now with a tune and whatever. So what's this thing you call it? What, graffiti analysis? Is that what you call it?

That's what I call it. It's a very technical term. Yeah. And can I just share my screen with you there?

Please do.

Yeah, absolutely.

Let's see how we go.

So I thought I would share with you what I call the graffiti analysis using a very familiar tune. You know, this is recognized worldwide regardless of what language you speak, and I have testament to that having worked abroad as well. And I suppose I thought I'd take you through, because it's short as well, I'd take you through the process. But obviously this, you know, what I'm calling graffiti analysis, I would use the same technique to apply that to, you know, a Beethoven symphony or whatever. It's, you know, it doesn't matter the length or the breadth of the work. And this, I use the same formula because for me, I'm obviously a very visual learner. And sometimes when you see sheet music, it can be very overwhelming. You know, you have 50 parts and, you know, it's—

Oh, it's just too many dots, isn't it?

Yeah. And it's like, whoa, it just looks like a barcode gone wrong. And so, like, yeah, I think I try to make it accessible. for everybody. And, you know, very often I work in community choirs and things like that, and I'll often try to explain it's not essential to read the music if you can— if I can just highlight for you what I call this graffiti, in a sense, colour coding, if you like, the points that I want you then to be able to translate or to interpret. So I suppose ultimately the end goal is maybe about expression more than just being able to read what's in front of you, because that's a technical ability, isn't it? Do you know what I mean? For me, it's about the interpretation and how we can express something because, you know, as a singer, we can sing in our speech voice, which is essentially nothing. Like, if you think of a child learning to read, you know, and they use those Biff and Chip books. I don't know if you know those, when they go on a magic adventure. And I often use that and I'll say, you know, Biff and Chip went on a magic adventure.

Fantastic.

Well, I have, you know, I have read what's in front of me, but my goodness me, the poor audience is asleep, you know? to apply this expression to the music. So the first thing—

People seem to have— people, well, singers.

Yes.

I'm very often struck by when somebody opens their mouth to sing, what comes out is totally different to what comes out when they're speaking. It's like there's this different set of lungs inside them that they're kind of It's amazing.

Isn't it amazing? Isn't it amazing? Like, people that can sing devoid of accent and all that type of thing, you know. I'm not talking— of course there are folk singers who are true to their, you know, their own accent.

I remember when I first saw Adele.

Yes.

You know, and that was before she'd lost all her weight, but which doesn't matter either way. But I mean, and the voice, her voice just was completely unexpected to me.

Yeah.

And yeah, and who's the lovely French The old French singers, you'll never regret Rihanna. Again, what did they call her? The Sparrow.

She was tiny.

Yes. She had a huge voice.

I know, I know. Like, I'm shocked by it actually, just my own students sometimes as well. You know, they come in, they're this, you know, tiny little kind of, you know, inhibited teenager, and the next thing they open their mouth and you're like, who are you? And what did you just do with Mary? You know, or whoever you are. Anyway, I'll take you through my So, graffiti analysis of Happy Birthday. So the first thing in the green there is the opening, which we call an anacrusis or an upbeat. Okay, so to explain that, the metre of this piece is 3/4, so it's 3 crotchet beats in a bar. So that was a choice that the composer made. I believe this is attributed to 2 American sisters. And they, you know, I think even just in choosing that metre 3/4, we know it as a waltz, oom-pah-pah, oom-pah-pah, don't we?

Oh, yes, yeah.

Like, so straight away, that was, you know, that was a choice because a dance, you know, let's get our happy feet on, it's Happy Birthday, you know, do you know what I mean? We can straight away get into that mood or the character that they're trying to portray. So this Happy Birthday, if you like, when the conductor would go indicate the speed, let's say, to whoever was going to play this, let's say an orchestra was playing it, they would go 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 2, happy, right? And you see what I'm doing there with my hands? The happy is the anacrusis, it's the upbeat, right?

It's the up, yes, okay.

Yeah, but notice what happens if we sing it. So 1, 2, happy birthday to, right? What I've done straight away, that anacrusis is actually an invite, isn't it? It's inclusivity in music is what it is. It's going, sing it with me. 1, 2, happy birthday to. Yeah, and it's like they want to, yeah, they're inviting, they're welcoming people to the party. So that's the very first thing to note here, that anacrusis. So moving on from the next colour code, then, is we have the rhythm, which I've indicated in purple. And so the rhythm, as distinct from the pulse and metre— so the pulse and the metre is what's strict, and the rhythm is what is varying in length.

Okay.

So the happy, if you notice there, It's not all like happy birthday. Yeah, it's happy birthday. So do you feel the vitality there?

Yes.

So that, that's— that semiquaver is kind of indicative of how we should articulate that word. It's not like happy, it's happy birthday. Yeah. And then notice on the other end of the phrase there where I have the blob that looks like this, that's not colored in, the you, that's elongated So it's happy birthday to you. You see the way that it's— it's— so in other words, they're making it about the person. Yeah, so it's the emphasis on who is the birthday queen, who is the birthday king today. Do you know? It's like, you are! Yeah, that's right. So I love this though. It's, it's like, you know, the music is telling us what to do. It's like the Google Maps, you know, all of the instructions are right there in front of you.

Right.

So then we go on to talk about the— what's indicated in yellow here, the melodic shape. So this particular piece, like, it's just basically very simple, broke into 4 different phrases or 4 different lines. And if you notice, each melodic shape is growing, yes, until we get to the happy birthday, dear. That's the big moment, isn't it? That's the best. It's like that woohoo. So there's a big— there's an octave leap there. Look at the distance between those 2 notes. And it's the climax of the piece. It is like the big, you know, this is— we're here to celebrate, guys, this is it. So you've got to lift the roof off at that point, you know, that's that. And that again is telling us what to do. I often talk about the rainbow point in a piece. That's the rainbow point.

Yeah.

That's the climactic moment. And they, you know, that's our job then as a singer or a performer to really emphasize that. And of course, they're traditionally then in the blue, which I've highlighted here. So those are meant to be little ticks, which are obviously the breath marks at the end of each phrase, which is quite simple, isn't it, for 4 phrases? But if you notice on the end of that 3rd phrase, I've used a fermata, which is a pause essentially. So when we get to the Dear Joe, well, we're all going to stop, aren't we, for a moment and, you know, go woohoo! And then we sing the grand finale, the last line, all over again, you know. So again, there's that there's the music is telling— it's not necessarily written there, but we can learn to interpret it through the notation and through the lyrics and through, you know, all things combined really. But when you see something in black and white, it's difficult. That's what I suppose— those are the skills I'm trying to teach. I'm trying to put the colour code on there and say, this isn't rocket science. Everything's on the page telling you how to perform this, even something as simple as— happy birthday, you know.

So you're reading between the lines almost literally, you know, literally teaching us how to read between the lines but using the other side of our brain because you're tapping into color and visual and all that stuff.

Yeah, yes, absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I think this, you know, if you noted there that the last color I've called structure, and of course the structure is, you know, certainly when I was younger I used to think that composers literally got a paintbrush and a bit of black paint flicked it at the page and wherever the notes, you know, landed, that was music, you know. That's what happened because no one ever told me otherwise, you know, that there was a structure behind this, that there is a framework, that there is, you know, yes, there's a place for improvisation and whatever, but every composer has a precedent or premise from which they came and it's our job to tap into it, you know, and to be able to interpret that.

Yeah, it's been really interesting hearing that because My brother got into music about a year ago, my middle brother. I'm the oldest of 3, and Andy has never played an instrument in his life. He's never really sung. I mean, although we can all sing, but he's never really, you know, sung or whatever.

Sure.

He got himself an electronic keyboard and he got himself, you know, the computer deck, the thing, and he's now composing his own music. He lays it down track by track. It's really interesting seeing how his early ones were just, you know, 3 or 4 tracks and there was a beat and then there was a bit of a rhythm going on and then there was maybe some flowery bits at the top or whatever. But now he's got like 20, 30 tracks going on and it's kind of, you know, quite complex and stuff. It's just really interesting.

It's wonderful what technology has done for us as well. You know, I'm thinking of one particular student here, similar experience. And just recently I had her DJ for an outdoor gig we had here because she's just phenomenal. She's absolutely phenomenal. It sounds like you're in Ibiza and she's just layered it, layered, you know, tracks upon tracks upon tracks upon tracks. But that's technology, you know, and what it has enabled us to do. And I know there are lots of, you know, there are lots of pros and cons to that, but, you know, for creativity, it's wonderful. Wow.

So let's talk about technology then, because I mean, we're using technology today. I mean, we're using Zoom and we're, you know, we're— I don't know how many miles away from each other recording this podcast that's going out through all kinds of technology and stuff. I mean, music is as fundamental as you can get to the human experience, isn't it?

I mean, yes.

We knocked sticks and sticks together when we were in caves and sang to each other and stuff, and we're still Making music. Where does it fit now in music education? Do you use it? Do you point your students to it, or is this something that they come to themselves? Where does technology fit?

Yeah, we do use it, but to a degree. Like I said, you know, the pros and cons. For me, it's never going to replace the live experience. Like, for you to be able to go to an orchestra, you know, hear a symphonic orchestra and feel the vibrations in your chair, like, you're never going to get that from a computer. regardless of, you know, how good your Sandman is. So, you know, I'm very wary of that, that I wouldn't be advocating for, let's say, a replacement of all my poor colleagues who do that for a living. But I do use it in the classroom. And so something as simple as my iPhone, you know, we would use voice memos where, for instance, because I'm teaching a lot of piano, we would play one hand and record the left hand, and that accelerates their learning because they can go home and basically play along with my bass line or my rehearsal track, and they're hearing, you know, it in their head. So, like, that is just a very simple way in which we use technology. And obviously lending libraries and accessing music, that's phenomenal. We do that here, you know, to be able— because obviously there's the big issue with copyright, etc., etc. Yes. Then also, I thought about this actually when I was answering some of your questions earlier. You know, we would tell kids to go away and listen to recordings of their pieces. So, for instance, you know, if there was something on a grade 8 exam, you know, Chopin Nocturne or whatever, and say, you know, can you go away, listen to this? And I always tell them, you know, you're so lucky. You have YouTube, you know, Apple Music, Spotify just at your fingers. Like, when I was back in the day, I had to go to the library, Look up the CD, you know, borrow it, go home, put it on, listen to it. I said, everything's at your fingertips, you know.

And you probably only have one version of it then to listen to, whereas now you can go onto YouTube and listen to 10 different versions.

And this is what I'm trying to say to you about interpretation and expression, and they can't form their own voice if they haven't listened to the voices of others. And that's a very, you know, it's a very valid point. But unfortunately, there, you know, YouTube is not regulated or standardized as to what is a good performance or a bad performance. So as you can imagine, for every, you know, lovely recording out there, there are lots that you don't want to use. So I kind of, you know, it's kind of a fake news equivalent, isn't it? You know, you're kind of like, oh, maybe avoid that one, or can you let me know which particular, you know, artist you listen to or whatever? So it is, it has to be regulated somewhat. But yeah, you know, there is a place for it in the classroom, obviously.

Graffiti analysis, I love. I love the color, and I love the way that it engages you thinking about what's actually happening behind the scenes almost, rather than just, you know, the notes on the page. So that was one of your main focuses. You have another one that you called casting. And I don't know what that term means. This is totally new to me. So wonderful, I'm going to learn something more today.

Again, another very technical term, Joe. No, it's— I suppose it's just a strategy I've had to come up with while teaching. I've been lucky enough to work in several schools rolling out musical theatre modules. And as you can imagine, for a school, they love their— especially transition years, because there's the time within their schedule for for them to perform because, obviously, a performance, some kind of a show, it raises the profile of the school, doesn't it? You know, it becomes a marketing tool. They can invite parents, you know, it's like, yeah, it's very, very important. And I understand—

And it's a big celebration event at the end, isn't it?

Oh, it's fabulous. And, like, I really do enjoy it because, you know, this is when you talk about being creative, my goodness, you know, you really— the sky's the limit, you know, with what you can do with But of course, as you can imagine, I might be thrown into a group, 75 kids, and I have them for 10 weeks and once a week and we're going to put on the show.

Yep.

Well, I don't know their names, never mind their musical ability, never mind have they, you know, it's like, okay, I have to come up with a strategy here, you know, and out of sheer kind of experience And so what I tend to do is I actually implement the Irish Board of Speech and Drama's syllabus here, where they do a musical theatre ensemble exam. So the minute that they understand that this is a kind of an assessment based on a group, that it's teamwork at its best.

Yeah.

So I obviously set very clear parameters there that, you know, this is not just come in and sit in the corner, you know, you must be engaged because we're all being marked here. That helps. But then, of course, as you can imagine, I need a lead role, I need a soundman, I need someone backstage, and how do I even begin to assign those roles? So obviously I have my own, like, icebreakers and different things that I find that I can assess personality and I can, you know, see how they work as a group. But then I just love what happens with peer assessment. Like, so I start throwing out questions and I'm like, so who here, like, who here can draw? you know, and think, oh, Peter, you're a great drawer, you know, yeah, I saw you. No, no, no, no, I don't do that, I don't do that. So all of a sudden, just by asking questions, they're casting themselves. They're going, well, so-and-so can draw the backdrop, so-and-so is an amazing singer, so-and-so was Irish dancing last weekend, I saw she won such and such, and you're going, amazing. So I'm taking notes the whole time, and just as they start to have this fight amongst themselves who's the best, You know, dancer, etc., etc. All of a sudden I have a cast list, and that has to be done in such a short space of time, you know. And then also it allows me to tap into their interests. So I'm okay, I've picked up that so-and-so was Irish dancing, so I'm going, okay, well, how can I somehow incorporate their already acquired knowledge and skill into whatever dance routine that we're going to do as part of our—

Are you going to make that dance routine Yeah, sure.

Or, you know, you can— you have this accumulated learning, you know, it's simultaneous learning. It's amazing. And, you know, I've thought about it lots and how every time I go in, I'm like, this will never happen. And of course, on the 10th week, it happens. The show must go on.

The show must go on.

Yeah. And it does. And every time it works. And I just thought that that really can be applied to any classroom situation. Why are we not doing this right from the outset? So, you know, who here can whatever, and start to assign those roles and give the student perhaps ownership of, you know, of whatever that task may be. And that could be relevant in any subject, you know, in any subject, and finding where their strengths and weaknesses are. And really, that's actually, you know, student-led at its best, isn't it? Absolutely.

There's a fear I suppose in some educators, myself included when I started doing this, that when you move away from sage on stage where you're the fount of knowledge and you're handing down the tablets of knowledge to the waiting masses in front of you, if you like, you lose control.

Yes.

And what if I don't know the answer? What if I don't know everything? How am I now going to be perceived? That you put yourself into a very different space with what you're describing, don't you?

I agree. And you see, you have to embrace the chaos because, you know, in my head as an artist, you have to be— you have to deconstruct before you can construct, you know. And that is the truth. And I think, you know, what you're mentioning there is a vulnerability. And, you know, that actually comes along with what I was saying about performance. You have to be willing to let your students see you like that. I actually just think it's in essence proving you're a human being. And like, you know, I would— I'm performing all the time for my students, all the time. Like recitals, I get up, I do something, and it might just be completely off the cuff. I might just say, I'll have a go at sight reading this. Yeah. And whatever. Because I feel if I make a mistake, how I react, how I respond, is actually going to, you know, help them to deal with that.

Mm-hmm.

Because let's face it, in every single recital There's a problem, something happens, you know, something happens.

They see their teacher make a mistake and that's okay, kind of, or, you know, it's not the end of the world, the sky doesn't fall in.

Exactly, you respond and you react, you know. I actually use the story— I was watching the BBC Young Musician of the Year way back, and a 16-year-old percussionist, she was just fabulous, and there she was giving it loudly and did the drumstick fly out of her hand, right? On live TV, flying, right? Well, the composure with which that child, you know, walked up, lifted the drumstick, came back, and just resumed as if nothing happened. There was none of that, like, moment, you know? And it's like, that is such an important thing to teach. But, well, certainly, you know, because I'm teaching performance the vast majority of the time, these things happen. We are humans. We are not robots. And it's how you respond and how you react. And, you know, so I think as an educator, I think that's very important for my kids to see that I'm just real, that happens to me all the time.

That reminds me of— we did Joseph and the Amazing Technical of Dreamcoat in Leicester Cathedral. It was the first time they'd ever let a school's production into the cathedral to do a musical.

Wow, that's brilliant! What a venue!

It was fantastic. I was one of the brothers. I wasn't, I wasn't wasn't any of the lead characters. And they cast Joseph as Elvis.

Oh brilliant! Yeah, yeah.

So he had the big white, you know, gear on and the glitter and all the rest of it and the swagger. And he was doing one of the big numbers up in the pulpit.

Yeah.

And it was like, it was, I think it was first night or whatever, so the cathedral is packed.

Yeah.

And right in the middle of the big number The power goes out. Yeah, so we have like 2,000 people sitting in the dark, okay, and out of the silence, yeah, Elvis's voice comes out and says, just hold on everybody, everything will be okay, just stay where you are.

I thought you were going to tell me Elvis had left.

Temporized for about 3 or 4 minutes, this guy just talked to it, talked to the empty blackness around him.

Yeah, I love it.

And then the lights came back on. And he stood there for a second and he looked out at the sea of faces and he looked around at all of us standing up there on the stage kind of wondering, what are we going to do next? And then he looked over at the conductor and he said, okay, take it from the top. And off we went again and he just— That guy's a professional! I thought that was so good. I've always remembered that and I was like 12 or something. Yeah, I wish I could do that, you know, kind of wow.

Yeah, that's exactly— and that's exactly what you're trying to teach is you to be able to think outside that box and to be able to fill. And I understand it is a very difficult thing to do, you know, we've all had those awful moments, you know, on stage. But sure, you know, let's face it, every teacher's on stage every day. We've all had those moments, haven't we? Cringe, you know, but it happens, you know.

Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned a funny thing that happened to you that ended up with you doing some production on a roundabout. Tell us about this. This sounds like a good story that we need to hear.

It's just the past year, you know, it's like I know that some of the girls that I'm working with here are saying, you know, my goodness, we've We'd like to see inside your head, or maybe not. So obviously I was asked to do the musical theatre module with a local school here, and they happened to be an ETB school which had very strict policies on procedures on COVID. So, you know, obviously there were general guidelines by the government, but then within the organisation itself they had banned, you know, pretty much everything. And I was going, how am I going to teach this in heaven's name? Like, you know, we can't sing, we can't dance, we can't— you know, there was so— it was so difficult.

And this was a musical that you were supposed to be doing?

Yes, yes, yes. And you're going like, how?

How am I going to do this?

I suggested a lip sync, it still didn't work. Anyway, so I was like— so we ended up from January, we were online anyway because obviously everywhere was shut down, we're locked down, and we— so we were delivering the module, let's say the theory online, which was challenging in itself but actually ended up being a great lead-in to what we were doing because in essence they created costumes themselves, etc. You know, we were able to do lots of the, you know, the history of musical theatre, etc., theory stuff, and then it was like, okay, well, do you think this is going to go ahead? Do you not think this is going to go ahead? And, you know, you can imagine the hours that I had put into to coming up with a show because, you know, there's a lot goes on behind the scenes, you know. It's, you know, I mentioned at the beginning that this passion, it's all-consuming. Believe me, it is, day and night, you know. And so I was like, well, by hook or by crook, I'm putting on that show. That is going to happen because I wanted the kids to leave with this sense of finale. Like, what is the point in just kind of like not seeing this vision come to fruition?

Yes.

And, you know, I'm so busy trying to design it and show and share every aspect with them. And I feel like a salesperson every day of the week, that's what I'm doing, I'm trying to sell them this concept. So I decided there was a big roundabout outside the school that we were going to make that our stage. So if you've seen The Greatest Showman, it's obviously based in the circus and it's about— so it was perfect, was that okay, we have to make this some kind of a tent. So I have a good friend—

I thought you meant a roundabout that went round in a Playing, you know, in a roundabout that cars drive around.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we did this, we performed this show in the middle of the day, I kid you not, tractors and everything going around, beep beep, yeah, it was fabulous, absolutely amazing experience. And yeah, so like 8 o'clock one morning, with, we obviously had run this by the local guards and everything, so we had all of their blessing, basically made a wind cheater, like a huge wind cheater out of red dress lining that became our roundabout. So there I was with a mallet, yeah, and I'm like going around. We hung curtains off 2 trees, right, and we had them like sequiny curtains, and that was, you know, our kind of entrance and exit point. And the terrifying thing was that the wings, so as each performer would come on and off, was actually the footpath Closest to the school, so they had to actually cross the road that was not closed as we were doing this. Yeah, yeah. So now we had plenty of staff on hand and all the rest of it, but we filmed the exam, we had a drone in the sky, and they— I'm delighted to say they all got distinctions, and it was absolutely fabulous, and we had our show.

Yeah, and what an experience. I mean, this is what it's about, isn't it? They'll never forget that. They'll remember that forever.

No, and that's what I wanted to happen, do you know what I mean? There's no point— I always feel really bad when things like that happen, you know, for whatever reason, and we could talk about management all day long, but, you know, things happen in schools and they're saying, well, that has to be cut and that has to be cut, and I feel like I've just spent 10 weeks with these guys, you know, selling something, and then they don't get to actually experience the live performance. So it was great, it was absolutely super, and one I definitely will That's amazing.

That's amazing. So performance is in your DNA. I mean, you see, you just live it, don't you?

Yep.

So why did you need to go to the Innovation Academy to learn about creative education? Because I mean, you sound to me to be one of the most creative, innovative educators I've come across. I mean, you're doing it day in, day out. It's not, you're not teaching the same thing to the same people every day, are you?

True. And I actually brought this up. It was one of the questions that I was— when I was at the course, to be honest, the course was a gift to me from me, right? I tend to— I have a job that's very antisocial hours. I have a busy family life. And the fact the timing of the course was perfect. It was the month of June where my teaching commitments had kind of slacked off. And I just, I love, obviously, I love what I do, and this idea of, you know, creativity and innovation in education specifically was just— I thought, gee, that is just me, you know, that's just what I love. And all of a sudden I felt in the class that I was with, you know, 36 like-minded people. It was just fabulous. But I think the difficulty for me and why I needed the course was that when you have no confines, no parameters, and even in my case at the moment, I obviously am running my own school, I do work for other organizations as well in different capacities, but for the most part, I'm my own boss. How do you put structure on that creativity and how do you design the curriculum that it doesn't just become out of control? Do you know what I'm talking about? Embracing the chaos and I'm laughing about that, but like, realistically, that is a big fear of mine, that it would just all become about the visionary and the dreamy, and there's no substance to it, you know. And I really— and I— yeah, that's why I went for the course.

Right. And what have you got out of it?

It was great. It was a great experience. It was absolutely super. And, you know, first of all, the community of practice, like, that goes without saying. That's why—

Amazing, isn't it? And did you have different educators from different backgrounds?

Yeah, it was just great. And that, for that Festival of Education, I suppose the team that I was with the longest, let's say, and there, you know, we— it's, it's so funny, you're not in a room, but all of a sudden you feel like you've gelled, and everybody's strength comes to the fore without ever kind of questioning what's your background, you know. It just, it just happened, it just evolved, and, um, I, I love that. So, you know, definitely I suppose I always felt that music was different. We were the weirdos on the side, let's say, the odd ones, the black sheep, call us what you want. But I really felt that whole sense of, hey, this is applicable to us. This is like multidisciplinary. All these ideas are just fundamentally teaching and learning. That's what it is.

Of course.

It doesn't, you know, and I suppose that was the biggest eye-opener for me and our biggest affirmation for me that actually I'm not the only one in the world, but, you know, what we do can be quite a solitary existence. You know, you're in a one-to-one, and I often use that as a selling point for parents because I would do— I endeavor to have a lot of recitals and ensemble playing because I don't want that to happen. I don't want them to think that music is one room with one person. It's so not. But I think as an educator, and even, you know, with my colleagues here in the school as well, it's very important to have that eye-opener that I said I had, you know, that we're That we fit in.

I love that. And I mean, yeah, I mean, the community thing is important because, I mean, you know, as a teacher primarily at university—

Yes.

I mean, I taught for 10 years at university and I got to a point where I was lonely.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I was going in, I was teaching my students, I was coming home. There was very little contact with other stuff. Now, that was my fault as much as anything else.

Yeah, there's lots of factors.

You get into a rut, don't you? And you go into college, you teach your class, you go home kind of thing, and you don't necessarily go to events that aren't in that, you know, cycle and stuff. And I found actually COVID has made it easier to link out to quite a lot of different new communities of practice for me. And it's one of the reasons I'm doing this whole podcast thing, because I mean, I get to talk to you and I get to talk to—

I know, it's a super initiative. I can see why to be stones rolling, you know. It's like, it's great.

Which is fantastic. Okay, so you're— so the diploma was one of the steps in your personal CPD?

Yes.

Um, and you also mentioned something about a methodology that I'd never heard of, Dal-Croze?

Dal-Croze. Yeah, Dal-Croze. Yeah, so I, I have very limited knowledge of Dal-Croze. It is one of those things you always hear Yeah, I've never heard of it. It's a great term. My understanding of it is experiencing music using your body, like it's a whole body experience. So as I say that, they teach music through movement. So, and it's a lot to do with kind of your rhythmics. And yeah, I think it's fascinating. Obviously, it can apply to any age and stage in life. I would have been familiar a little bit with it through early childhood development where, you know, you're— which obviously we know when you're trying to develop certain skills, you know, motor skills, etc., with kids, we would use it. But it's obviously applicable right throughout life and a method of teaching. So it's something that I would really like to look into. And I suppose, as you've just said, COVID has made it a little bit easier for us to tap into these things. You know, I hope that I can, because we don't physically have to, you know, be on location, let's say, so that the course that I'm looking at doing in the UK may be possible possible for me to do it while here, you know.

Fantastic. Wow. And I love it because you're still learning, you're still looking for new stuff. You're not just saying, I know my music, I can teach music.

That will never be me. I have the other problem, Joe. Yeah, I really do. I have— it's like there aren't enough hours in the day for me, unfortunately. I'm always at something.

Yeah, absolutely. It's It's crazy stuff, isn't it? Wow. Right, I'm going to pick one of your 5 questions here, and then I know we're running out of time. So yeah, oddest instrument encountered. Tell us the story around this.

Yeah, it's not even a story. It's just when I was trying to think of questions, you know, that you could be— I suppose where did this come from? It's one of those moments, you know, where I was intrigued. That's what I was really trying to think about myself in the classroom. And it was when I was down in UCC and Mel Mercier was playing the bones. And I remember just sitting there— well, first of all, he's a phenomenal player. But to also just think that, you know, where those came from. Let's think about that. You actually mentioned earlier about music being, you know, a fundamental human thing.

Yes.

And back to the cavemen and all the rest of it. I suppose that's really what we're was so shocking for me that day. I was like, wow, when you think about this, what he's actually doing playing the bones.

And when you say playing the bones, there'll be people who don't know what you mean. I don't know.

Sorry, yeah, yeah, sorry.

Explain what the bones are, because I assume they are bones, are they?

Yes, they are bones, yes, so animal bones. So you would be, um, I think I, I am, when I was saying in, in the, the question there, it's like bones/spoons, because I believe It's the same kind of approach. So it's animal bones played between the fingers. Yeah, so they're played between fingers and there's obviously a really, really difficult technique that creates very fast rhythmic patterns based on that.

They're like percussion players with that in their fingers.

Yeah, indeed, indeed. So in essence, that's what they do. So like for me, that was one of those moments where I was like, Wow, you know, and obviously had lots of questions in my head, you know, like, as to, you know, how did this even happen? Who decided one day to, oh, I'll have a go at this? And then how was that notated and how has that grown to me getting a lecture in UCC on, you know, and I know Mel's now in UL and, you know, obviously ethnomusicology and studying music of other cultures is huge for him. It's his passion. Yeah, it's it's a really big thing. But I suppose to go back to that initial, like, wow factor, when I lived in Poland, because we're in an expat community, you'd be sharing, you know, things like, oh, so there's an English-speaking swimming instructor and there's, you know, because you're always looking for— so we're passing around numbers for birthday entertainers. So it's just like, you could, you know, this clown that you could hire for your kid's birthday party. and his show was playing the spoons. Well, my goodness me, that guy was not a clown. That guy was a phenomenal musician.

He was amazing.

Like, unbelievable. And he literally, you know, obviously was entertaining kids, but it was just fascinating because all I could think of was back to Mel and the Bones and how that they were ultimately doing the same thing. And I suppose for me then as an educator and how I bring that to the classroom, I think really what we're describing is a curiosity. Like, you're always wanting to nurture that. Like, they're coming in and, you know, obviously 90% of my teaching, my examining, or whatever, is the piano. Like, everybody wants their kid to learn the piano. And teenagers, it tends to be guitar or whatever, or maybe the drums. But, you know, there's so— I want the kids to explore instruments outside that. How can we say even culturally that we in Ireland here, we want to have a national symphony orchestra, but actually we only teach piano, guitar, and drums. Yes, there are other instruments that we need for an orchestra. We have to nurture that curiosity and actually bring that. Most kids have never seen a double bass. You know, I recently just bought a bassoon off an ex-professional player in the UK so that we have it here, that the kids can see what that is. My own son plays the tuba, which is obviously, you know, again, an odd unusual instrument. And I mentioned earlier that I did my finals on harpsichord, and my husband bought me a harpsichord for my 30th birthday. And so we have this at home. And like, for me, like, when we were teaching Bach, for instance, right? And it's on grade 8, and you're there, it's on the piano syllabus. Well, hang on a minute, the piano wasn't even invented when that dude was around.

I know!

So we were like, right guys, you know, you have to, you to play it on this, to kind of get into that mind frame, like what the composer had heard, what the composer had intended, and so on, and make it really authentic. So like, I suppose for me, I think that was a really big thing. It's really trying to capture that curiosity and always trying to engage your student with something else when you feel that that period is coming where they're a bit like, okay, this again, you know, that you need to give that injection, reignite the fire somehow. And that's a great way to do it. Yeah.

So, I mean, we've talked about it a little bit, but your plus one for other educators was perform for your students.

Yeah.

Is it so important that they see you perform?

I think so. Like, I think so. I certainly think it's my personal strategy. I think it's really, really important. for them to, you know, if you want a student to open up to you, you have to open up to them. And that's basically it. It's a form of communication. And I also think it's, you know, you mentioned earlier there about, you know, how it's difficult to hand over that control, or, you know, that you would feel vulnerable as an educator to do that. But I actually think it's quite empowering as an educator to do that, because you all of a sudden, you have the room, you have the audience. Do you know, like, if your class see you perform and that it doesn't— you know, I'm not saying do this every day, obviously, you know, but if it becomes that, like, wow, there's that engagement, there's a respect there that—

Yes.

And it can be— it doesn't even have to be in any formal sense, but I also believe that the performance should be a challenge. What use is me performing for my kids, and every single time that Suzanne's gonna sit at the piano, she's gonna play the Moonlight Sonata. Yeah, okay, we're bored of that now, you know, so let's, let's, let's go for something else. So like, say it would be, I don't know, a language teacher, say for instance, and they say, right, okay, I, you know, this week I'm gonna mix it up and I have challenged myself to translate Ed Sheeran's whatever.

Yeah.

And, you know, you have, you have a teenage room, you have the room, you have the room. because they're like, you have picked material that they, you know, instantly recognize. They know that that's going to be a challenge for you because you don't necessarily listen to him, and all of a sudden they're eager. They're like, oh, you know, even if they want to anticipate you're making a mistake, they want you to trip up, they want you to do it. But like, I just think there's something so— It's so exciting. Yeah, there's something so fundamental about that, and for me, it's— I think it's really important, and I don't see enough of it, if I'm completely honest, in schools that I don't, you know, there tends to still be very much the preachy, preachy lecture type of teaching going on rather than, you know, than this performance.

It's interesting, I mean, what you just said about kind of the fear from educators leads me to perhaps what we'll kind of close on, which is, you know, the call to action that you mentioned in the kind of stuff I sent you beforehand And you've just created a new course. Now, I'm a parent and I've got a 9-year-old and a 10-year-old and they're talking about music and wanting to learn music and stuff. And I'm thinking, yes, that would be fantastic, but I'm terrified because I can't play the piano and I can sing, but I can't formally read music or anything like that.

Sure.

And this seems to be something that you've picked up on And you're doing something about. So, so tell us about this, this new thing that you're doing.

Yeah, I suppose again, this has just come out of experience. Like, for instance, if I say, like, I'm from the north of Ireland and, um, my own kids have had to learn Irish. Okay, well, obviously I wasn't—

yeah, I know.

And I mean, I'm just like, yeah, you know, I'm there trying to find every app under the sun and, you know, I'm trying to ask the spellings and you're like, oh, here, you know, like, it's, it's, it actually becomes frustrating part of the homework process. And, you know, obviously parents ask your advice a lot, even right back to, you know, what instrument should I choose for my child?

Yes.

Well, like, you know, I don't have a crystal ball into your home to know what instrument your child is, but all I can do is share my insights with you. Do you know what I mean? And I suppose I have— maybe didn't have the confidence before because I thought, well, you know, what could I tell people? But actually, I suppose I have an informed, you know, how many, 20-something years of teaching now where I can actually say, well, if your child has difficulties with coordination, the piano's not for them. It's 2 hands, you're doing your— and then feet, and you're doing all of that at the one time. And it's like, well, you know, so they— I could straightaway say, pick a single-line instrument, you know, where you just have to deal with one line of music at a time. And that's just one example. Or if you're saying You know, as a parent, you'd be going, okay, well, I can't read notation, and how am I going to help my child? Well, obviously, we could, you know, I can give you lots of different resources, but be it books, apps, whatever, that you could look at together. Or again, it doesn't necessarily have to be that you read. At the end of the day, it's your child learning music, but you can support them in so many other ways than actually sitting down to read the music, because that's a very small part of it at the end of the day.

Yes.

And I would rather see, rather than being able to be literate in music notation, I would rather see you instill the discipline of good practice. Do you know what I mean? Like, that they have a practice routine and why that's so important. And then, of course, there goes— we could, you know, the sky's the limit with this because you've mentioned already about singing. Well, obviously, the health of your voice, you know, like, I have a very loud 15-year-old who is very involved in sports. Sports but loves to sing as well. So I constantly have to remind her that, you know, hang on a minute, screaming and yelling for, you know, the 90 minutes that you've just played on there is not going to help your singing lesson tomorrow. You know, I know it's obvious, but there are ways in which you can control that and suggest, you know, taking care of ultimately the instrument here. So, you know, other things, practical solutions, like we discovered teaching on Zoom, the amount of Violin strings and guitar strings that were broken in the space, and parents never knew how to fix them.

Right, so just simple stuff like that. Yeah, like show people how to string a guitar.

Show them how to string. If this happens, life happens, your younger baby sister, ping, you know, well, this is what to do. So I suppose that really is— it's come out of different scenarios that I've encountered over my I love it.

Well, so that's going to be up on Eventbrite and on the Rockwell Academy Music Academy site. So I'll put a link in the show notes to that.

Oh, brilliant. Thank you.

And I should probably sign up for that as well.

Oh, I'd love to see you on there, Joe, as long as you can smile and reassure me that everything's okay. That's fantastic.

Right, well, look, I know we're over time. I'm showing an hour and 8 minutes on my timer, but I think I would love to a few minutes before we started. So, Suzanne, that's been brilliant. I've thoroughly enjoyed hearing about music education, and just like you said, there's so many connections. You're not the odd one out. It's all the same, you know, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is, it is, absolutely. And, you know, again, it was, yeah, an amazing experience to be involved with the Innovation Academy, and it was great to meet you, and thanks very much for the opportunity Well, I think we shall, I think we shall stay in touch.

But thanks for coming on today.

I really appreciate you being here. All the best. Bye-bye now. Bye.