Keys to a Healthy Relationship and Loneliness With Kira Markoff

Hello. So my guest today is a mental health therapist, yoga teacher, and psychology PhD student, and they help people to heal through connecting with themselves, others, and the world. Welcome to the show, all the way from Pennsylvania, Kira Markov. Thank you.

Thanks, John.

It is a pleasure and an honor to be here. I'm really excited. This is one of my favorite topics to talk about because I use this information professionally when I do therapy with couples. And it's also the focus of my research, my PhD research right now. So I love coming at it from all of those different angles. You get the research side, you get the practical side, and then I'm also a yoga and meditation teacher. So I love having the perspective from all of those different worlds. It just makes it really exciting and full for me.

Awesome. You've already started— touched on a few things there, which is great. So could you go into a little bit more detail about the stuff that you've just mentioned there? Because obviously that brief introduction I gave was very, very brief.

Yeah, of course. So I love drawing and kind of integrating and connecting all of the perspectives. So just kind of like in one bite-sized piece, um, 2— based on the research, 2 of the skill sets that are the most predictive of success in a romantic relationship are partner responsiveness and emotion regulation. And so those are kind of like umbrella labels, and then underneath you have all of the skills for a person to actually be able to, to kind of be in that space for themselves and then demonstrate it with their partner. And so just from those 2 skill sets, if we take just, let's say, partner responsiveness, because that might be one that's a little confusing for people, like, what does that really mean? How do I do that?

Yeah.

You know, you can kind of come at it from like a psychology perspective with the Gottmans. I don't know if you're familiar with them. They do research and then also kind of therapeutic work with couples. And so they talk a lot about the word attunement, which is just being able to kind of hold space, listen to your partner, and kind of hear the needs and the emotions underneath of what they're saying.

Right.

And that kind of process to be able to attune or to say, like, this is kind of surface level what I'm hearing. And I'm also recognizing underneath that you're feeling scared or that you need to be reassured right now. And so that is a really important process of attunement that the Gottmans talk about. And then if we kind of flip over and take it from almost like a mindful or meditative perspective, Vietnamese Buddhist monk who's now deceased, Thich Nhat Hanh, talks about deep listening and loving speech as 2 ways to communicate mindfully. And when you, when you think about deep listening, it's exactly that same thing, being able to just hear what a person is saying and accept it without defensiveness, without judgment, and be able to kind of offer them back some loving speech that feels soothing and it feels comforting for them. You know, and so it's kind of like from these very different times and worlds and perspectives, you have these same messages. It's like when you want to connect with a person, they don't need, they don't need advice. They don't need you to tell them what they're doing wrong. They just need you to listen and to kind of hear and be, be perceptive of kind of that underlying message.

Yeah, I think that's, that's an incredibly rare skill, I think, though, isn't it? It's something that Again, like you probably experience with your couples work, when I do my couples work, that you mentioned about defensiveness and judgment and kind of not being able to put yourself in someone else's space, right?

Yeah.

And because we all have experiences, we all have— I like to call them sensitivities, right? Like emotional sunburns. You know, I've been hurt before, or even from childhood, I have this thing that happened. And so now You know, I have a sensitivity about something and you might brush up against it, you know, unknowingly, not knowing I have that sensitivity. And then I have a big reaction. And a lot of times my big reaction causes a big reaction in you, you know, because you weren't expecting me to get so upset. And then things just kind of escalate from there.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, if person A, the person with the sensitivity, is able to come at that with mindfulness and be like, whoa, you know, that's a big reaction. Let me just kind of sit with that. So that I can kind of understand what's going on and know that I'm having that reaction, that can keep it from escalating.

Mm-hmm.

And then from the other side too, if person B who brushed up against that sensitivity is able to be like, whoa, that was a big reaction. Like, I wasn't expecting that. That can also make a really big difference. And it's just about being able to be in the present moment, being able to kind of hear what they're saying, not take it personally. Recognize when you're having a reaction. And it's not even so much about not having reactions, right? Because that's not possible. We're human beings. We have reactions. Everybody has reactions. You can't stop them. And honestly, the more you try, the bigger they get because you're like holding them back, kind of like waves on an ocean. Like, you're not doing anything. So it's not about not having the reaction. It's just about being able to recognize you're having the reaction and then not do things that make it worse. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a very complex kind of space to go into. I guess there's a lot of personal and self-development that needs to happen for you to be very aware that you've been triggered, that you're reacting in a certain way, and then to be able to kind of manage that and keep your focus and your attention on what's right in front of you. And for the other person then obviously to recognize they might have triggered you and—

Yeah.

Trying to get something from you at the time and, and to be able to Bring all that together, that takes a lot of kind of focusing on each other, I guess. Right?

Exactly. Yeah. And that's what this partner responsiveness is all about. I'm able to be in this moment, be paying attention. I have the space and the availability to be able to do that because it does— it takes a lot of self-regulation. And that's kind of a big issue that I see in couples a lot, and you probably do also, is that we try to have conflicts at times when we don't have the emotional availability or the energy available to be able to handle it well. Right. I'm coming home after a long day. I'm stressed, I'm tired, I'm hot, I'm hungry, whatever. And that's when I want to have a conversation about something tense between us. Like, that's not a good choice.

Or even if it's not tense, just having it sometimes trying to have a conversation about nothing.

Exactly. Instead of just coming in and saying like, hey, I've had a really long day. I need some time to decompress. And again, that's that self-monitoring piece. That's that I know that I am in a space where I'm irritable or where, you know, I'm likely to cause a fight. And so I need to go and take care of myself. And depending on your relationship with a partner, you can also help, you know, ask for help co-regulating, you know, telling them like, hey, I've had a really hard day. And the Gottmans actually talk about this too. And so does Thich Nhat Hanh, interestingly enough, talk about kind of recruiting your partner and asking for help. And being specific with what your need is. Because if I just come to my partner, I'm like, hey, I've had a really bad day. They're going to look at me a lot of the time, be like, what do you want me to do about that?

You know what I mean? Yeah.

And so if you can follow that up, if you have the insight to be able to say, I've had a really hard day, I would love, you know, a really long hug, or, you know, I would love if you could just bring me a glass of cold water, you know, and kind of follow it up with a really specific request for how they can help you. Because the, the hope is that you're in a relationship where your partner wants to help you, your partner wants you to feel good. And so if you're able to say, hey, having a really hard time, here's this really specific thing that you can do to help me feel better, the hope is that your partner will step up and do that. Now, of course, we know that not all relationships are like that, but that's kind of what we're hoping for.

Well, definitely, that's, that's what we are hoping for, isn't it? It's that kind of wanting to engage in a space where you're Where you're able to offer something of yourself to make your partner feel better rather than worrying about how you're feeling. And like you said earlier on about going into those kind of triggered spaces, because that can happen quite a lot, right? If we're not self-aware, if we don't— we're not self-aware and we're not aware of the other person, then that's going to be a very difficult thing for people to try and, try and do, isn't it?

Right. And that kind of leads into like, what does mindfulness really mean? Because I think the word mindfulness gets thrown around a lot and it gets kind of a little confusing of like, what does it really mean? How do I practice it? And so I did want to kind of touch on that a little bit too.

Yeah.

And the way that I have conceptualized mindfulness honestly comes from the research that I've done. So there is, um, uh, have you heard of Jon Kabat-Zinn?

No.

Okay. So Jon Kabat-Zinn, he's out of Massachusetts, I believe.

Don't quote me on that.

I wouldn't be able to do that anyway.

Okay. So he started the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction program. And essentially what it is, is it's an 8-week program, and you go through and you practice mindfulness, meditation, yoga, etc. It's for stress relief. And they do it for people with, you know, cancer to help with stress-related symptoms. Anyways, the point being, He has a definition of mindfulness that was used by members in the research, uh, like community to develop a, um, kind of like a survey questionnaire or a paradigm for how to think about mindfulness. And it's based on his work. And so essentially mindfulness is, uh, 5 components. That's how they boiled it down. So it's the ability to observe, describe, act with awareness, be non-reactive to internal events. So that's thoughts, feelings, just internal body sensations. And then also to be non-judging of those internal events. Again, thoughts, feelings, internal sensations. And so when you can talk about mindfulness in that really specific way, we can start to see how a person might use mindfulness, how it becomes practical, and also how it's a skill set that can be also practiced. Right? So if I think that mindfulness is just a state of being, then it's like, well, I can't get there, you know? So then it's not helpful. It's not accessible for me.

Yeah.

But when you can start to talk about mindfulness as a set of skills, we can be like, oh, you know, I can practice observing what's going on. Like, that's not so hard. I can practice describing, you know? And some of these things start to line up with other, other paradigms, right? So we mentioned the Gottmans, and they have The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, right? Which are kind of 4 behaviors that you see that really indicate like, hey, your relationship is, is a little dysfunctional or headed for a bad space. And each of those Four Horsemen have antidotes. And when you look at those antidotes, um, it's— it lines up really nicely with those practicable skills from mindfulness.

Okay.

Cool.

So like you said, that's, that's, that makes it very clear, doesn't it? And what mindfulness could actually be. And like you said, that is thrown around quite a lot, mindfulness, and it has been something where I say, well, what does it actually mean? And what am I doing? And does that mean I've got to meditate? Or all those types of things that it gets kind of confused with. But to put it in those 5 simple steps is, I think the judgment one might be more of a difficult thing for people to Master, because we are very good at judging ourselves as well as judging other, other people. Um, but yeah, I think, like you said, if you break that down into those 5 steps, it's something we can all aspire to. And if we bring it into our relationships and being mindful of our space. Yeah.

And so kind of to use that example that we touched on earlier, it's like, you know, the person coming home from work, right? Coming home from work, had a long day, hot, tired, hungry, etc. You know, we have the observation, which is just the noticing, right? I'm really tired. I'm really stressed. I need some time to relax, right? All of that is observation.

Mhmm.

And then the describing piece, which is to kind of put all of that in words so that your partner can understand it. Because then you tell them, hey, had a really long day. It would make me feel really nice if you could do X. That's that describing piece, you know? And then nonjudging. I'm letting myself have this reaction. I'm not telling myself like, oh, I'm a bad person because I'm, you know, drained, or, oh, I don't take enough good care of myself because I let myself get it. Like, there's none of that extra story that comes along with it. It's just simply the observation. I'm tired. I'm hungry. I need to relax. You know, I'm a human being with a body that needs taken care of. Mm-hmm. You know, and so that's kind of where that non-judging piece comes in. Non-reactivity, again, kind of like, I don't have to have a reaction to that. I don't have to try to fix it in any way necessarily. I don't have to have a story around it. And then I'm able to act with awareness, which is to use intention to make choices. And in this case, it's the person acting with the intention of, hey, I'm going to communicate with my partner so that I can be really intentional with the way that I'm taking care of myself and, you know, prioritizing myself and my relationship.

Mm-hmm.

So just kind of in a nutshell, that's how all 5 of those might fit into maybe a 30-second interaction.

And I think that's also really good if you can, if you can figure that out for yourself and put that into practice. And then depending on what the reaction or the response you get from the other person, I think that again, that was maybe how good or what kind of quality of relationship you're actually having with that person as well, right? Because again, if they're If you're able to explain, this is how I feel, this is why I feel this way, this is what I need from you. And they don't kind of— I mean, we can't expect them to be able to just jump in and say, okay, if that's what you need, that's what I'm going to give you, because we're not taking into account where they might be either in that space.

Exactly.

But if you never get a response that helps you in that space, I think that's an important thing to kind of think about as well. If that person is actually going to be able to offer you the things that you need.

And the Gottmans do touch on that in their own work. They call them bids, right? Bids for connection. And so there are different ways that a person can respond to a bid. It can be just ignored, which is like, I did not realize that you were asking me to do something. Or it can be denied, which is like, you're asking me for a glass of water and I'm just telling you, like, no, I'm not going to do that for you. You know, and then the other one obviously is just that they, they comply or they kind of meet the need where it's being asked.

Yeah.

And of course, this is a really, um, like concrete kind of in-your-face example. I'm saying, can you get me a glass of water? And you're either ignoring me, telling me no, or getting it for me. But there are a lot of other kinds of bids that happen kind of under the surface, not so like, not so discreetly. And so that can be kind of more likely where issues come in because I might, you know, I might send you a text, hey, having a hard day. And that's a bid for connection because I want you to kind of meet that and kind of comfort or reassure or support me in some way. You don't realize that that's what I'm asking for. And so then, you know, you don't respond in a way that makes me feel good. And again, that kind of goes into the, the Gottman bids situation. And also kind of falls under that umbrella of partner responsiveness, right? And again, so just kind of all ties.

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, there is, there is kind of a thing about being on the same page here, isn't there? So we had a little bit of cutout there from from the recording, and I can't remember what the last thing I said was. So we'll have to edit that. But I'll carry on with talking about the research. Thank you for editing that in the right place. Thank you, guys. Okay. So that's, that's very interesting as far as how people can interact and, and the things that we could be doing in order to Be more attentive and be more engaged in our relationships. And then your research is, is some looking into this as well, right?

Yeah. So my research study is currently collecting data, so I don't have results to be able to share at this time. But there are studies that are really similar to mine that I've kind of, I've been drawing my, uh, kind of like, you can think of them as like ground rules or kind of the boundaries for my study. So there were 2 particularly that were published, one in 2015, one in 2019, that were looking at mindfulness and how it affects behaviors during conflict. So there are different strategies that people use unintentionally most of the time during a conflict situation. But then also beyond that, these studies were looking at partner satisfaction, commitment overall.

Mm-hmm.

Relationship maintenance kind of stuff. So all of that kind of in my research specifically is focused just on those 5 aspects of mindfulness that I mentioned earlier and how, if at all, they predict each of 6 different romantic partner conflict strategies. So the strategies that I'm looking at in my research are compromise, which essentially is like when we don't see eye to eye, Are we able to come together, have discussion, and kind of make a choice as a team about how we want to go forward? And of course, that's kind of the ideal situation. That's what we'd like to have happen. But as we both know, that's not— I would say that's not even usually what happens. So the other strategies—

I just want to tap into that word compromise. I've talked about this before. Now, causes a lot of issues when I do the couples work especially, but even when I'm talking to individuals. And again, it's a trigger for me as well, because compromise feels always— if you've got this kind of idea of it— that you're giving something up.

Hmm.

And I think—

is—

I'm not sure about it as a word really when it comes to relationships, because it always strikes me as, as something that could be like, oh, compromise, I'm not sure if I really want to I really want to compromise. And like you said, it's a very, and not a normal space for us to want to step into.

Yeah, for sure. And I think that it really depends on not only the definition of the word compromise, right, but then also kind of how it's being treated. So in the way that it's being treated in my research study, so the kind of the way that the The authors of the tool that I'm using conceptualized it is kind of more along the lines of being able to feel like we're in a partnership. So being able to come alongside the partner and discuss things together is kind of more what it's like, like one of the, one of the questions. So essentially, there's like a sentence, and then the person kind of rates how much they agree or how often.

Mhmm.

they do that with their partner. So one of them might be something like, um, when we disagree, my partner and I come to a decision that, uh, feels good for both of us, you know, or we talk the problem through until we come up with a resolution.

Right.

You know, so that's kind of more how they talk about compromise.

Right.

What you are talking about to me sounds more like a different, um, conflict strategy, which is like submission and domination.

Mm-hmm.

Where one person kind of gets to decide. And then the other person just goes along with it so that the conflict can be over.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. There's, that's definitely the element to that. But there's also the kind of the idea of, of actually being too stuck in your own space type thing, you know, why would I have, why do I have to give something up in order for this to be resolved? Yeah, I think that's, unfortunately, I think that's quite a, a powerful human trait as well, isn't it? That I think I don't— we're not taught about, you know, like you said, unless it's about being dominated or people pleasing or something like that, where we feel like our needs aren't worthy, deserving, and things like that. So therefore we don't stay in our own space and push what we want or what we need from people who are in relationships. But there's also that idea of we're not taught that it's okay. that we can negotiate here. It's not— we're not taught actually that it's okay for me to maybe give something up in order for this relationship to be okay.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I think that's, that's the point that I would love to get across to people a lot of the time is actually just because you're maybe compromising, maybe you are not gonna get it entirely your own way, then that's okay. So long as it means that your relationship is healthy, harmonious, and functioning in, in, in a good way.

And honestly, I like to think of that as one function of mindfulness because, um, it's interesting, the word that was translated into mindfulness is also sometimes translated as being in remembrance. And so part of being mindful is remembering important things in the moment, right?

Mm-hmm.

So when you and I are in conflict or when we don't see eye to eye, being able to remember, hey, my relationship is more important than whether or not I You know, pick my shoes up after myself, you know, and being able to kind of keep that perspective in the moment is very difficult for people.

Yeah. Yeah. Because we all have the way the things we like them to be, don't we? And though, like you said, even the things like the shoes, the small irritants, things that we take on board. But like you said, not being mindful at all, is it? You know, if you're allowing yourself to be irritated, I mean, if there's a constant maybe disregard of your of what you want and what you need, I think that's a completely different space. But if it's just that I like it this way and you're not doing it the way I like it, um, we need to be very mindful actually that this is just the way I like it and you don't like it that way. So I need to let you grow. Yeah.

And I sometimes will ask people, you know, would you rather be right or would you rather be helpful? You know, because you can look at that situation with the shoes like objectively, yes, Your partner should pick up after themselves and put their shoes away. However, is that the most effective strategy in your relationship? Is that going to get you what you want long-term, big picture? You know, but people have a really hard time, like you said, when I feel like I'm correct, I have a hard time giving that up.

Yeah, most definitely.

And it's a big stumbling block for people.

Yeah, we like to keep that stuff very close to ourselves, don't we, in order to kind of keep ourselves safe and protected and whatever other reasons we have for doing so.

So— I'm glad that you brought that up. It reminds me, I just saw a quote about Abraham Maslow. So Maslow is a psychologist, was a psychologist, and he developed what's called the— it's a pyramid of needs, right? And so it's a hierarchy. So the things on the bottom are the most important, and then it builds up on tiers to things, and you have to satisfy the lower level before you can move up. Right? And on that basic level is safety. So when something is identified as a safety issue, it automatically becomes the most important issue, even above social connection or maintaining a relationship. And it's important to remember that just because something feels like a safety issue doesn't mean it's actually a safety issue.

Yeah, a lot of that's going to be very much a perceived idea in your head based on your own experiences and what you deem as unsafe, isn't it?

Exactly. I'm a firm believer that now money feels like a safety issue because if my money is threatened, my shelter is threatened, my food's threatened, my job, my transportation, everything. So I think that's one of the reasons that finances are such a stressor for people. You know, it causes so much conflict in the relationship because it feels like a safety issue. And most of the time, we don't have the insight and awareness to name it. Right?

To—

we just feel, you know, tense and frustrated and stressed out and maybe blaming. Right? All of those things that come out.

Yeah.

And we don't see the underneath, right? Where it's like, I feel really unsafe. You know, and sorry, go ahead.

That comes back to that mindfulness again, isn't it? It's being very mindful about actually exploring why you feel the way that you do. Why are you getting these reactions in your body? Why are you feeling tense and stressed about something you probably can't put your finger on? And what is the real underlying issue that's creating that for you?

Yeah, it's so funny. I just had a conversation with my sister about this the other day, actually. I, I, I, um, texted her in Facebook Messenger and I was like, like, I think I need to get out of the house. I'm— there's a part of me— this is what I said— I was like, there's a part of me that really wants to cause a fight with my partner. I was like, and I feel like I just need to get out of the house before that happens because I know that it's not about him, right? I had all of these different stressors going on. I was like, I know it's not about him, but that thing inside of me wanted to pick a fight. And I was like, I know that's not going to be helpful and it's just going to cause problems.

Yeah.

And so I did. I left the house for a little while.

And figured out what it was.

Yeah, yeah, it was my research study, believe it or not.

I'm sure that's quite a lot of, uh, taking up quite a lot of your headspace at the moment.

But it was just, I mean, imagine had I not had that insight and awareness, right, and had just kind of started the fight with him over something stupid, right, like shoes on the floor, right? Maybe not never, but I would say almost never just about the shoes on the floor. You know, most people are able to say like, objectively, that's not a big deal. It takes 2 seconds. But like you said, it's what that represents and everything else that's behind it.

Yeah. So can we come back to your studies then?

Yes, absolutely.

We started off with compromise and we got into quite a detailed and interesting conversation about that.

Yeah.

What's the next thing that you're kind of looking at in your study?

So the 6 conflict strategies that I'm looking at are compromise, avoidance, which is just, it's what it sounds like, people avoiding conflict because they are uncomfortable with it. They don't believe it's ever helpful. They don't know how to have conflict. You know, there's a lot of different reasons people might avoid conflict. So that's the second one, separation, which is like, you know, when we start to have conflict, we take some space. Um, and that's just kind of where it ends. And so there's a lot that can go into that too, which is like, are we separating for a short time and then coming back and resolving, or are we separating and then avoiding? And that makes a big difference.

Yeah.

Um, and then you have dominance and submission. Like I said, one person always gets their way, one person always lets the other person get their way. Um, and then the last one is interactional reactivity, which is, um, just having big emotional reactions during a conflict, whether it's like anger or frustration or Usually those are the big ones. Tears. Some people have, you know, tears when there's conflict. So those are the 6 strategies. And so essentially what I'm looking at, um, is each of the 5 facets of mindfulness individually, do they, and if so, how, how much, how consistently do they predict the levels of these 6 conflict strategies?

Right.

You know, and hopefully the results of my study can be used to support the need for like mindfulness-based interventions to use for couples treatment. That's my long-term goal, assuming, you know, favorable results. And the current research around this topic really supports that that would be a helpful and worthwhile use of resources. Because it does, it takes a lot of resources, time, money, energy, you know, all of those things to put together an intervention and then test it. You know, it's a, it's a really long process. But there's quite a bit of existing research that says like, hey, this would be a really good use of our time. And so now it's kind of just the research is trying to understand, we call it mechanisms, which is like, why does, like, we know that it works, but why and how does it work? Western literature is very focused on understanding things.

Most definitely.

We don't like the, the just, it works, so we're going to do it. Like, we don't like that. So that's why I'm looking at each of the 5 traits of mindfulness really individually. But like I said, there are 2 other research studies published around this topic. And some of the most interesting findings from the 2019 study, they found that female mindfulness— so this was just with heterosexual monogamous couples.

Yeah.

So female mindfulness predicted a decrease in male reactivity. Right. So the more mindful the female partner was, the less likely the male partner was to be reactive. And to me, that speaks really clearly to co-regulation. If I can be regulated, if I can be present and fully present, fully relaxed, that's how I describe, you know, being in a mindful state. I'm fully aware of everything that's going on and my body is calm. Then it makes it less likely for that male partner to have really big emotional reactions. And there's a psychological theory, it's called polyvagal theory, and it talks about states of being through the lens of nervous system functioning. And essentially, the, the idea is that our nervous systems are in communication below the level of our awareness. So if I can send you cues of safety, cues of comfort, kind of almost like reassuring cues with my body language, with my tone, with the words that I'm choosing, I can help your nervous system also to be in a more regulated, calm, focused, present state.

Yeah, most definitely. I completely agree. Because again, we feed off energy of other people all the time, don't we? And if I come into a situation, like you said, even with you the other day, if you'd have gone into your, into your partner about egging for a fight, and he was in a calm, measured space, and he could say to you, Kira, I can see that you're a bit stressed at the moment. Can you tell me what this is about? Because it's clearly not about us. If he'd have gone into his energy and sort of said, what are you having a go at me for?

Right.

Then, then you could— that would have escalated into something else because he would have just felt that coming off of you. Right.

Yeah.

I think, yeah, it is. And if, like you said, if we can remain in a fully present state as much as possible where we don't have that reactivity, someone is going to subconsciously pick up on that. And hopefully, I'm just thinking of some of the people I've dated in the past, play with that, and they don't keep pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing to try and get a different kind of reaction out of you.

Right.

Than the one you're actually offering them. And I think, again, especially important with the male and like the masculine energy, isn't it, that the masculine energy If you can come in and offer a softer space for that, um, you're going to get a much calmer person coming at you. Right.

And it's interesting because Thich Nhat Hanh actually talks about mindfulness as a skin, you know, and how our skin is our protective layer. And without it, you know, or even when our skin is damaged, we're so much more susceptible to disease, injury, all of these things. And you can kind of think about mindfulness in that way too, of like, If I'm able to really practice mindfulness, be in remembrance, you know, have a calm body, soothing breath, right? And also remember, like, you are stressed. You know, if I can remember all of the things that are stressing you out or remember that your reaction isn't about me, remember I haven't done anything to cause this reaction, right? All of these things, I'm protected in some way from the energy that you're putting off, right? I'm able to maintain— in polyvagal theory, they call it ventral energy, which is this place of like, Compassion and peace and calm and, you know, organized energy. I'm able to maintain some of that and not go into immediate, like, you know, stress response or shutdown or anger at whatever it is that you're throwing at me.

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I mean, yeah, I mean, if you can, what I was, what I would like to say is actually once your research is done, please come back onto the show.

Oh, I would love to.

Talk about your results, but actually I'd like to see how then that links up to the other studies as well. I'd like to talk about that a bit more if possible.

Yeah, I have to write about it for the end of my dissertation anyways, so.

Excellent. I'll look forward to hearing about that when it's, when it's done. Um, so on a personal level, so tell me a bit more about your kind of, um, your, the significance of relationships to you in your life. There's a story that, uh, we, we touched on before the show, which I, which I'd like you to to talk about. But relationships to you, what's the significance of them? And, uh, and what kind of impact do they have on you?

So it's interesting, I've actually wanted to do couples therapy since I was probably in middle school, um, which I think is interesting. I don't think most middle schoolers see themselves doing that. And I think I just had this awareness from a really young age that Relationships matter to people. And I saw that good relationships were so nourishing and supportive and comforting. But relationships that were dysfunctional or stressful caused so much harm, you know. And so it was this thing that had the potential to be so wonderful, but there were stumbling blocks that made it so, so hurtful and caused so much suffering for people.

Mm-hmm.

And so I saw that, and I really wanted to help people be able to tap into all of the benefits that a romantic relationship could provide. And I grew up in a really close-knit church community, and so I think maybe part of that awareness came from being around so many married couples and kind of seeing the different interactions, um, and seeing so many different relationship dynamics. I was— I've always been pretty good at picking up on patterns.

Yeah.

So I think that might have been it. I was just exposed to so many different kinds of relationships. So I saw, you know, the good ones, and then I saw the ones that caused a lot of suffering.

That's very astute for a young, young lady to put those things together, however, right? Because mostly we wouldn't do that. We would just live the experience and we wouldn't objectively sort of step back and go, oh, I can see that. I can see the patterns here. But clearly the way that, the way that you are as a person, you, you, you're able to see that straight away.

Which kind of ties really back into this conceptualization of mindfulness as practicable skills, is that some people are just more naturally mindful. You know, like, you could never have heard of mindfulness, but you take this questionnaire and you score off the charts just because it's, it's a set of skills. And so you might be able to practice them without any formal training, without knowing what it is that you're doing, just because that's how you exist.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and so that's another reason that I really like this is people can be mindful and practice mindfulness without having to know that that's what they're doing.

But again, you saw the significance and the impact of relationship. I wish I'd seen that when I was a kid because it would have made such a big difference to my own life. Um, but you'd noticed that how people interacted with one another made a huge significant difference to their overall kind of well-being and how they were as people.

Yeah.

And even now when I'm thinking about it, I can think back to when I was a kid in my church community and a few couples spring to mind immediately that was like, oh, Like, I saw them having a really good partnership, you know, and I— and it's just interesting that they're there kind of in the forefront of my mind. And I saw them helping each other and working as a team. And, you know, I wasn't, of course, in kind of like the intimate details of their life where I saw them having conflict, you know, but I kind of saw the outward-facing, just kind of we-ness, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And it does, it makes a difference. And I think I also felt it for myself. You know, I felt even in friendships, family relationships, what it feels like to have someone who's really supportive and what it feels like to have someone who's just not.

Yeah. Yeah. I think as an adult now, I can look back and go, okay, I can see the differences. But as a child, I would never have been able to have been aware enough to go, okay, this is not a healthy relationship for me. This is a healthy relationship for me. I would have just reacted to what was ever going on around me. But again, to be like, Again, if we could, if again, that's, I was talking to someone at a networking yesterday about what, what, what would I teach children about relationships if I—

Mm-hmm.

We were talking about exactly this. It's, it's about that awareness of what's going on around you. Because again, as, as children, especially, we internalize everything. I mean, it's always about us. So if I'm getting told off because my, my parents are in a bad space, I will think I've done something wrong, even if it's got nothing to do with me whatsoever. And I will get confused in that because I probably know that I'm not doing anything wrong, but they might be looking for something and making me feel a certain way, even though I'm completely unaware of what's going on around me. But to have that, again, that mindfulness, that awareness that actually as a child, and I know cognitively maybe and emotionally development-wise, that might not be something that everyone could be able to do. But you're an example of someone that could do that from an early age. And has that helped you? Throughout your experiences, your own personal relationships, having that awareness?

Well, I think part of it is that we kind of build, we build on it. So from an early age, I didn't have the words to describe it the way that I'm describing it to you now. But I, I knew, you know, these are the kind of people I want to be around. And these are the kind of people that I don't feel good being around. And kind of just starting there, because that's kind of a really physical response. And you don't have to think too hard about it. You know, if you were to ask a kid, You know, who do you like to be around? Who do you not like to be around? You know, why do you like to be around them? You know, then you start to build their awareness because you're asking them these questions and they already know. They just may not have ever realized that they know it or thought about it enough to realize.

Yeah, no, great. I think that's just something, again, if you're a parent listening to this or involved with children, or this might even be something you're going to go into professionally, I think that's a really good thing. To be able to tap into with them, isn't it? Like you said, they might not be able to constructively put an answer together, but they'll, they'll know who they feel comfortable around and who they don't feel comfortable around. And I think that's, and again, maybe then it's be able to explore why they feel uncomfortable, what that's about for them. I think that'd be a really good skill for kids to learn.

And you are building mindfulness skills, right? Because in that we're building observing skills, describing skills. So I just had to throw that in there. I couldn't let that slide.

So tell me the story about you and your husband.

So this happened probably over 2 years ago. It was a while ago, but it sticks with me. Um, we were in Home Depot, and my husband is, I think, a third-generation mason, so he can spend a long time in like a home store. So we'd been walking around probably an hour and a half, maybe 2 hours. Like, I'm tired, my feet hurt. I've never spent so much time in a Home Depot, probably if you took all of my other Home Depot experiences and pushed them together. And so I was getting like really frustrated and irritated. And I remember just— I can see it in my mind still. I remember stopping at the end of an aisle and I just closed my eyes and I started doing this. It's one part of a larger— it's called a pebble meditation.

Mm-hmm.

But I did this one part and essentially you just use the affirmation or the mantra Breathing in, I see myself as a mountain. Breathing out, I feel firm. And I repeated that. Breathing in, I see myself as a mountain. Breathing out, I feel firm. And when you do that exercise, part of it is inviting yourself to embody the characteristics of a mountain, to feel immovable, to feel strong, to feel steady. And so I did that. And like I said, probably for 5 or 8 rounds of breath. And then my whole demeanor was changed. I noticed things in the Home Depot that were interesting to me, and I was able to enjoy the experience.

Okay.

And it shifted me from a mindset of, you know, this really sucks. Why is he doing this to me? I just want to leave, you know, to, hey, this is like really fun. We can enjoy doing this together. Like, this is some time that we can be together and enjoy each other's company. And honestly, to me, that's, that's what mindfulness is about. You know, so often we get caught up in the day-to-day stressors that we lose the ability to enjoy spending time with our partner.

Yeah, I completely agree. I had this very much so, very similar conversation not so long ago about actually making time, spending time, and how you can get lost in the day-to-day where you just feel kind of distant from one another and Mm-hmm. Not actually feeling close. And, and there's some kind of that bond is kind of breaking somewhere. And it's really important that you are mindful about your relationship and, and what that needs to be nurtured in order to keep that connection and bond together.

And I did wanna bring up, um, so this is my book. I don't know if you've seen it. I'm very proud of it. But, um, my book goes through—

For the people that are just listening, can you just tell 'em what the book is?

Yeah. So this is Mindfulness and Me: A Practical Guide for Living. It's 8 weeks of daily mindfulness practices. And actually, the pebble meditation that I mentioned is in here. And to me, mindfulness is some— it starts with you. You know, there are practices that you can do with your partner to make it a collaborative experience.

Mhmm.

But if you remember back to the beginning, the 2 skills were partner responsiveness and emotion regulation. That's, that's on you to practice. You know, that's something that you can do on your own to build up your own mindfulness skills, to be able to interact with your partner in a more mindful way. And also the rest of your life. You know, your relationship is a big part of your life and it's really important, but you're also a full person and it's important to be a well person so that you can show up to your relationship in a meaningful and positive way.

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. It's interesting, isn't it, that again, when we talk about relationships, we sometimes overlook the relationship with ourself and how significant. And I mean, ultimately, is that is the number one thing we need to be mindful of, isn't it? It's something we really do need to look after. Because if our relationship with ourself isn't in a great space, then it's likely to bleed out into all the other relationships that we have and, and And those issues that maybe we have in ourselves are going to show up all over the place.

Exactly. I mean, how many times did we talk about needing personal insight to be able to share that and provide that context for our partner?

Definitely. Uh, thank you, Kia. I'm afraid we are running out of time. Um, again, one of these conversations that could go on for a lot longer, and I'm definitely— we need to get you back to talk about your research findings when they're, when they're out and carry on these conversations. If people want to reach out and get in touch with you, how can they do that?

So I have a website, it's, um, www.connectionsmindbody.com. And so you can contact me through my website. There's also some free resources. So free mindfulness practices, meditation practices, a couple of yoga practices on there, just free to people to use.

Great. Uh, the link for that will be in the show notes. And if people want to get the book, can they get that via your website too, or do they need to go to No, you can purchase a signed copy from my website.

You can also order it from Amazon, Barnes Noble, Walmart carries it. Um, you can order it directly from the publisher, John Hunt Publishing.

Awesome, thank you very much. And do you have any words of wisdom or a favorite quote or something you'd like to leave the listeners with today?

You know, I was a little miffed actually when I realized that 3 years of research could be summed up in a meme, and it is Keep calm and be kind. That's literally all it boils down to. If there's only one thing you take away from today, keep calm and be kind.

Excellent. Thanks for your time, Kira. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. It's flown by, and I look forward to speaking to you again.

Thank you, John.

Hello.

So on today's episode, I have a returning guest. In the previous episode, we talked, we touched on her research into mindfulness and romantic partner conflict. And she's back today to talk about those results. And I'm really looking forward to talking to her because I have no idea what these results are either. So it's going to be a learning experience for myself, as hopefully is going to be for people listening. Uh, welcome back to the show, uh, from Pennsylvania, Kira Markov.

Thanks, John.

Thanks for having me today.

Uh, just a quick reminder to, to the listeners, could you just tell them a little bit more about you, what you do, and then, and then we'll, uh, take a dive into those results? I'm really looking forward to talking to you about those today.

Sure. So I am a mental health therapist, a trained yoga teacher, a certified clinical trauma professional, and I have recently been dubbed with the title of PhD in general psychology. So my focus was mindfulness and romantic partner relationships. Um, and I'm really excited to talk about the results today too, because, uh, my passion is really reading research, understanding research, and then figuring out like, okay, what do I do with this now? What are the practical applications of the research? So that's what I'm really excited to talk with you about today.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. That, because like my coaching programs are about, uh, the practicalities of putting things into place now that we can understand what's going on. So I'm really, again, I'm really looking forward to this. So please. to tell me what, what the results were.

Sure. So just a little bit of background on my study. Essentially, participants completed questionnaires where they rated themselves on certain aspects of mindfulness and then certain types of behavior that come up in conflict interactions. So there were 5 facets or dimensions of mindfulness and then 6 conflict behaviors. So essentially what my research did is it did like a 1-to-1 correlation between each of the 5 dimensions of mindfulness and each of the 6 conflict behaviors to say like which parts of mindfulness affect or don't affect behaviors during conflict. So it's just a little bit about like kind of the paradigm that I was working with.

Yeah.

And one really interesting part is that I actually had to throw out a complete dimension of mindfulness because the results of the study showed really bad, like, what's called internal reliability, which means people would rate themselves both really high and really low, which doesn't make sense if it's supposed to be measuring the same thing. And so I actually had to throw out all of the data on the observing facet of mindfulness, which is really interesting because when people think about mindfulness, they think about paying attention to something or observing something, noticing something. It's almost synonymous with mindfulness. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, and so my mental health brain kicked in and was like, you know, why would that happen? And really, the kind of best guess that I have is that, um, this idea of observing or paying attention to something can be both from a place of mindfulness where there's acceptance, non-judgment, kindness, compassion, or from a place of anxiety. There's a term called hypervigilance, which means that I am so anxious and on edge that I'm paying attention to every single detail that's going on inside and outside of me. And so that was a really interesting finding. And I think there's a lot of good application there, but I'll kind of set it aside for now because what you're really interested in is what were the results?

No, we can come back to that too, because it's very interesting because it is, it depends on how you're looking at it.

Exactly. So you can be observing, but you can be observing from a place of anxiousness, or you can be observing from a place of experiencing from this, you know, position of kindness and just wanting to be a part of something. And so it really depends, like, am I on edge? Am I waiting for something bad to happen? Am I feeling unsafe? Or am I just really in the moment and I want to actively participate and engage in what's going on? And that's really different. And it has a lot of impact on the way that interactions go. If I'm you know, bated breath waiting for you to say something critical, that's really different than if I'm just here and listening to everything that you have to say, seeing your body, your body language and everything. Um, so I think that does really play a part in the interactions.

Yeah, I think there's a whole new study there, isn't there?

There is, and there's a lot more research to be done for sure.

What would make someone look at it from such a different point of view?

Yeah, yeah. Um, So the kind of positive results or significant results that I found were acting with awareness, which is a facet of mindfulness where we— you can think about it kind of as like having intentionality, not having behaviors based on habit or instinct or just like pure reaction, but being able to say, this is what I want to say, this is what I want to do, being able to follow through on intention based on whatever your goal for the situation is.

Mm-hmm.

Which, I mean, you can just imagine with a conflict interaction is really important. So what my research found is that more acting with awareness, so higher intentionality, was related to lower, um, interactional reactivity, which is, you can think about it as like escalation, yelling, arguing, um, you know, raised voices, things like that. Um, and then also lower levels of domination where one person is trying to say like, oh, it's my way or the highway. When you have somebody able to act with intention, they are less likely to show domination.

Okay.

Uh, which I thought was really interesting, but no significant results with acting with awareness and compromise or, um, avoidance, which is like, I just don't want to have an argument, so I'm going to do whatever it takes to not have an argument. Um, separation or submission, those were the other behaviors that there were not significant results here, but acting with awareness was significant with interactional reactivity, which we can think of as like the difference between addressing a situation and having an argument.

Okay.

Because conflict is just any point of disagreement between 2 people. And so that can feel like just a normal conversation where we're talking through possibilities, how we want to handle the situation, obviously, or it can feel like an argument. Things get heated, voices start to raise, We might feel a little bit unsafe or start to feel kind of tense, right? So that's really what that interactional reactivity piece is, which I don't know about you, John, but I know in a lot of my conflicts, that's the one where I'm like, I want to get rid of that piece.

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting what you say there about conflict as well, that conflict is just about having an interaction with somebody about maybe on a different page to something rather than, you know, some people see conflict as just having a conversation. But some people don't see conflict in argument. It's really interesting how people then use the word conflict. But I just want to come back to what you said. You were saying that intention was the only one that made a significant difference to being able to resolve the conflict in a more positive way. The other, the other didn't make any difference.

Oh, no, no, no.

Um, intention, when you compare it to the 6, behaviors only, um, was just those 2, interactional reactivity and domination. But there were other facets of mindfulness that also affected interactional reactivity and domination. Yeah.

So with, with, with intention, I guess that's a really, is that like setting a boundary for yourself in a way? Isn't it? It's like going and saying, this is what I want to impart. This is how I want this to come across. This is what I want to say. Is that what you mean by intention?

Um, what you're describing would really actually fall more on the describing, um, facet of mindfulness. That's about taking what you're feeling and putting it into words. The acting with awareness part of mindfulness is really being able to have a level of control over our behaviors.

Okay.

Is really what that's speaking to. Um, and oftentimes in conflict, when it gets escalated, you know, people say like, oh, I saw red, or, you know, I just started saying things and then I regretted them later. So it's really about having that influence over our behaviors during that situation. Um, so it kind of makes sense then that it would be related to interactional reactivity, which when I think about that, I think about somebody acting off of emotion versus really thinking through what they want to do and say.

Okay. Okay. Awesome.

Um, describing that we just talked about actually was the only facet of mindfulness that was related to compromise, which makes sense. The better I am at putting my thoughts and feelings into words, the more likely we are to be able to compromise. Again, a lot of this makes logical sense, which is nice. And I think that a lot of research, that's what it does. It takes what we already intuitively know and kind of help put it into words and help us like be consciously aware of it instead of just, you know, intuitively knowing it.

Yeah, so we can have a look to see actually what do— how do I want to engage in this space and which is the best way for me to do it to get the result kind of thing that I'm looking for when I'm entering this space.

Exactly. And that's the practicality of this research, is each of these parts of mindfulness you can take as a skill that can be learned. So if you're saying, I really want to work on being able to compromise better with my partner, you could say, well, you know, the describing facet of mindfulness can help you do that. And so then you can work on How do I mindfully describe what I'm thinking and feeling and needing? What does that look like? And that's an actual skill that you could practice or somebody could help you practice. So that's kind of just a little sneak peek on where I think some of the practicality comes in. Because sometimes we just feel like we know we want to make a change, but we don't know how.

Yeah.

And so that's why I love this research, is it says, here are all the things that are happening. Here's how we can make certain changes. What change do you want to make? And those are the skills that we can work on. And it makes it really easy and accessible.

Yeah. So, so when it comes to being able to— so would you say like this would then be a really good thing to say, okay, when I have something that I need to address within myself, within my relationship, from your research, using mindfulness in what kind of What's the word I'm looking for? In what kind of headspace do you think it would be then best to approach? I guess it's gonna vary depending on what the thing is, but from the research, what is the best kind of headspace you think when you're entering a discussion which has a likelihood of some kind of conflict?

Yeah.

So what you're gonna wanna focus on are behaviors or skills that decrease Domination, decrease interactional reactivity, and then increase compromise, which based on my research would be acting with awareness, describing, and nonjudging. So that's the space that you want to come from, and you might need to do some prep work on that.

Mhmm.

So if you're already feeling really riled up, you're feeling angry, you're feeling hurt, maybe you're feeling resentful, you're feeling unsafe, disrespected, you're gonna wanna sit with that and kind of work through some of that. Before you go and approach it with anyone else, whether it be a romantic partner or a friend or a parent or whoever, right? So a lot of this research is also applicable to any other kind of relationship that you have.

Yeah.

Um, so you can go, you can sit with that, you can acknowledge and validate all of those feelings, and then you can say, you know, you bring in this describing piece, right? How do I want to convey this feeling in a skillful way that is true to myself and also is, um, phrased in a way that's most likely to be accepted and understood by my partner or whoever without causing defensiveness, right?

Yeah.

Because that's really the goal here, is to be able to have a conversation where everybody is able to stay present, um, and they're able to hear what's being said. And so we can come at something, you know, really harshly, and you might have every reason to Right? You might be perfectly valid in your anger, right? That doesn't make it helpful. And so part of mindfulness is about choosing what's effective and what's helpful, even if, you know, something else is perfectly valid, right? So then valid— you can take validity out of the equation.

Yeah, but I guess you could still validate yourself in that space.

Exactly.

You could still say, actually, I am very angry about Exactly. And I mean, you could probably even express that to the person if you feel like it's an appropriate thing for you to. I'm actually feeling very angry, but rather than expressing that anger in an emotion, maybe describing, like you said, that I'm actually quite angry about this.

Right. Rather than saying like, you're a piece of trash, you can just say, hey, it made me feel really angry when this happened.

Yeah. Yeah.

But it's actually funny that you mentioned that. So in the research that I was doing, I actually found some research that suggests that, um, hiding or like kind of withholding an emotion is more harmful to your relationship than simply admitting that you're having a difficult feeling. Okay. So, you know, often people will say like, oh no, I'm not angry at you, when you know that they are. That's actually more harmful to your relationship than simply saying, you know what, I am really angry about what's happened.

Yeah, I can imagine, because like you said, not only are you withholding that within yourself, but you're not being honest About how you feel to the other person. So they don't really know how you're feeling. But like you said, they probably can guess to a certain degree.

Yeah, exactly. I know how you're feeling, but since you're not willing to admit it or have a conversation with me, now there's no hope for resolution because you're not even willing to admit that you're feeling it. So how are we supposed to address it? Because then you're probably not willing to accept any kind of apology that I might offer. And repair attempts are so important in relationships because we do— we hurt people's feelings. We say things that we don't mean in, you know, moments of mindlessness, right? Opposite of mindfulness, you know. And so it's important to be able to offer those repair attempts and then for your partner or whoever to be able to accept them. But if we just hide our feelings, if we aren't willing to acknowledge our feelings, any hope for resolution or repair quickly gets lost, and that's very harmful to a relationship.

Yeah. And I guess like the other one you mentioned was non-judgment, and it's quite hard, isn't it, to To not enter some kind of, uh, discussion if you are angry, upset, without coming in with some kind of predisposed sort of judgment of, of the other person that you're going to be talking to, why they've done what they've done, and all sorts of manner of things. Right.

Or you were wrong, or this was better, or, you know, um, what kind of judgments do we make about people? If you had just listened to me, I told you so, right? All of those are judgment statements where people can quickly feel criticized. But it's really easy to do, you know, because that's the way that our brain works. Our brain says either this is right or this is wrong, this is good or this is bad. Um, but then once people are feeling criticized or they're feeling unsafe in a conversation, I mean, you know, it's a lot more difficult to want to be vulnerable.

Mm-hmm.

If I'm not feeling safe, I'm not going to be vulnerable.

Most people are at an end to something already. If you're expecting some kind of pushback or disagreement or something, you generally find just putting yourself in a headspace to act out with that in mind, aren't you? Rather than what you're saying with your study is to be more mindful about how you approach these situations.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Have the internal awareness for your own state of being. And that's why I say kind of go off to be with yourself first before you try to approach it with somebody, just because that's a lot to try to process if you're also having a conversation with someone. So it's best to kind of separate that out, take some time for yourself, notice your feelings, kind of sort through some of those layers, right?

Yeah.

So we have the first layer, which might just be like anger or, you know, harsh criticism. And we can say like, okay, you know, a boundary was violated, or I'm feeling unsafe in some way. So you can go to that second layer. Am I feeling hurt? Am I feeling scared? And then you can go to a deeper layer, which is like, okay, what is the need here? Am I needing affection? Am I needing reassurance? Am I needing sleep or food? Right? And so then you can start to say, like, okay, here's the need. And that's where we communicate from, right? Our need. Because nobody's a mind reader.

Yeah.

If you can say, I'm feeling angry, I need X, then your partner can say, oh yes, thank you for telling me, and then does X. Ideally, not all partners are so wonderful, but like, this would be the ideal situation.

I guess there needs to be some, there's some extra mindfulness when you express this in a mindful way and it isn't received in a mindful way. And like you said, in a mindless way, if, and then you can't, you know, You said you can be as mindful as you like if, and you can put this across with the best of intention, um, and get yourself in this centered space as much as possible, knowing what you're in this to do. You could still get that fight back, couldn't you, from somebody else?

You can.

And there's actually been research done on how this works with couples. And so I read a research study that showed, and they did it based on gender lines, and I don't think gender lines are necessarily super important, but that's a conversation for a different day. But the research study found that female mindfulness predicted lower levels of interactional reactivity and domination in male partners. And so even though we think, yes, no relationship is a one-sided street, right? It's 2 people being involved. However, having a grounded party and a center party Helps things not to escalate. And so if I'm able to stay calm and have a conversation, you are also more likely to be able to be calm and have a conversation. It's not a guarantee, but the research does suggest that it's fairly effective.

And I would imagine that would be true because all the research and everything I've ever done is a kind of masculine-feminine energy, and generally the male is the masculine. You know, it's not always going to be the case, but men don't like to be approached with criticism or harshness. Or being told what to do or anything like that. They want, they want a more of a feminine energy to come towards them to, to have these kind of spaces, right? Whereas if you come to someone in masculine energy, whether it is a male or a female, with more of a critical judgment, judgmental approach, they're very unlikely to take that very well, and you are going to end up escalating the situation. So I can see where that research would come in that on a gender scale, especially that a male would respond more emotionally or more defensively, even more aggressively if you come at them without the intention of being more open to a discussion. And it's like that phrase, isn't it? It's not what you said, it's the way you said it type thing.

Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

The one thing that I love too about mindfulness is that the Sanskrit word that was originally translated to mindfulness is also sometimes translated as just being in remembrance. And so I think part of mindfulness that becomes really important in situations like this is to have the remembrance that we are being intentional and making a change, and the other person might not be in that space. They might not have the tools or be ready. We don't know necessarily what's going on inside of them.

Yeah.

And so having that remembrance that we can come, we can bring mindfulness to someone, we can try to resolve something, and they might not respond. And that's okay for now, right? It's not okay if that happens every time for years and they're being, you know, abusive and critical and things. So, you know, this isn't like a blanket forgiveness for people to treat you however they want. However, it's important to not get discouraged the first time and know that it's a practice for you and it's also a practice for them because changing dynamics in a relationship takes a lot of hard work, takes a lot of consistency. It's not just a one-time thing.

No, definitely. Yeah. And then you could actually quite surprise someone, can't you, Jo, if you—

Yeah.

You're used to that dynamic approaching each other in one certain way and then all of a sudden you think, actually, I need to do this a different way because it never really gets us anywhere.

Mm-hmm.

Be like, what's going on? You know, this isn't what I'm used to. This is very— and that could put them on guard in itself, couldn't it?

And it's funny because I actually like to warn people, and I'll tell my clients this too when they're like practicing a new thing, that I'll say like, you know, it's perfectly okay to go to your partner or go to whoever and say, hey, hey, you know, I talked about this with my therapist or whatever. Like, I'm going to try to respond this way. I would really love your help in supporting this. You know, because I have a lot of people who come to me that they have conflict, and then, you know, they try to walk away to, like, get some breathing space, but their partner, like, follows them and is like, no, we need to talk about this.

Yeah.

And so in situations like that, it can be really helpful to warn them ahead of time. It's like, hey, this is what we— I've noticed it's not helping me. I would like to try something different. I'm going to try to walk away, and I need you to give me some space, and we'll come back to it once I've calmed down. And then when you're in the conflict, They may start to follow you again because they're not remembering the conversation, right? They're acting out of habit. But you can say, hey, remember that conversation that we had, right? Instead of trying to have that conversation for the first time during an escalated conflict.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because like you said, it's not— you're unlikely to say it in a measured way as well. Right. But funny you should say that. I was having a conversation with somebody the other day and they were saying, About walking away. And when someone walks away from their abandonment and rejection, stuff is all triggered.

Yes.

So if you're going to give— even if you're giving them a warning, it might not necessarily be that they're able to sit in that space. Would you say then that, um, there needs to be a, a, a, a conversation about how this space is going to be given? Because if, like, if, if I am walking away from you and one of your triggers is rejection or abandonment, And start to chase me. It's going to be difficult if that need is really powerful in you to let me go, even though I'm saying, look, I need some space. You're not going to give me that space.

Yeah.

So I would say that definitely needs to be a conversation, and it is going to be difficult. And so the person with the abandonment or the rejection sensitivities needs to work on some self-soothing.

Mm-hmm.

Essentially, because space is important to be able to process. In fact, there's a lot, there's a lot of couples research out there. If you're familiar with the Gottmans, um, one important skill set is called physiological soothing, which means like once my stress response is escalated, all bets are off. Like no helpful processing happens. I need to go get my body back into a state of calm, and then we can resume the conversation.

Yeah.

So that's really, really important. And so if you're a person who experiences that kind of anxiety, you also need to do that physiological soothing, right? And so there are different ways you can do it. One person said it was really helpful. Their partner actually recorded something for them to listen to when they were feeling that way.

Right.

And the recording said things like, I just, I need some time to calm my body so that I don't say anything hurtful to you. I'm doing this because I love you. I'll be back in 5 or 10 minutes. This doesn't mean the relationship's over. We're still fine. You know, all of those things that a person needs to hear in order to feel reassured. So then when they walked away, this person could play that tape and it was their partner's voice saying these things and it helped to calm them enough that they wouldn't get worked up into a panic attack.

No, that's a really good idea because sometimes just saying, look, don't worry, I am going to be back. Isn't going to be enough to alleviate the anxiety that someone could find themselves in or put themselves in if you did decide to take some space.

Now, I'm also a big fan of scaffolding, which means you do something that might not be ideal long term, but you do it for now because that is what works for you and what you need. So I would say that would be a first step, is having your partner or whoever create a recording. But eventually you will want to get to a place where you can do that for yourself. Because it's important to be empowered and to have full confidence that you are able to manage all of your feelings and all of your emotional needs. It's great to have people there, right? It feels really good when somebody wants to soothe us, but it's important to know that we can do that for ourselves. So what you can do then is create also your own set of soothing practices. You could create your own recording with your own voice that's also telling you these things.

Yeah.

But I do think that you will want to get to a place where you don't rely on other people to soothe you.

Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. I had a client recently who just used to hug themselves.

Yeah.

You know, again, because again, that's, I said to them, so if you were a kid, you know, because generally this lack of self-soothing comes from not being soothed as a child. Um, if you were a kid and you needed soothing as a child, or you saw yourself distressed as a child, what would you need? And they said, oh, you know, I think I just need someone to give me a big hug. So, well, next time just give yourself a big hug. And that's what they did. So they gave themselves a big hug and that was enough for them to feel soothed enough to, like you said, to bring that distress down and, and that anxiety down and be able to manage their own emotions in that space.

Yeah, that's beautiful. Oh, there's so much good research on skin-to-skin contact and, you know, brain chemicals that get released during hugs and all of that. So I love it.

I love it.

The other thing about non-judging too that I wanted to bring up is that it's not just non-judging for your partner, it's non-judging for yourself. That you are accepting of all thoughts and feelings that you may have, and you don't judge your own thoughts and feelings as unacceptable or wrong or invalid. That everything that you're feeling, everything that you're experiencing is valid, right? And deserves a place and space in your life, even if we're not going to act on whatever behavior impulse comes along with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's really important to understand, isn't it? That even though, and sometimes, like, I know I've done this myself as well, like the reaction or the space that you're in is, is quite unnecessary, but don't judge yourself for that unnecessary emotion. It's about trying to understand, because if you then start telling yourself off and invalidating yourself, you're very likely to feel worse and heighten your emotional state or shut yourself down completely. So you just don't address things anyway.

Yeah, I tell people sometimes, and they get shocked, but I say, I don't believe in overreacting. I do believe that sometimes a current reaction is based on more than the current situation.

Mm-hmm.

But when you dig underneath, just like what you were saying, there's always something behind it, right? We don't just feel things for no reason. Like, that's not how our brain and our body work. Sometimes we, we learn unhelpful lessons, or we learn unhelpful ways of reacting and responding to things. Yeah, but there's always something behind it. And that's why I say every emotion is valid and we peel back layers, right? So for the rest of your life, you may be peeling back layers of why does this bother me so much, you know, and it probably is a lifetime of things.

No, yeah, almost, almost certainly there's, for the deeper triggers, there's, like you said, there's layer upon layer of why that exists. And hopefully, like you said, if you approach your your person that you want to have this conversation with in the right way, they are more open to helping some kind of resolution in that space. Because that clearly is, if they could then engage in maybe a conversation about why you feel the way that you do as well. Because they might not understand, they might go, okay, I don't understand why you feel the way you do, why you're angry. I don't really get it because I don't understand what I've done. That would trigger some, this level of kind of emotion in you, then if they are able to sort of say, okay, could you tell me more about why you feel the way that you feel? Then maybe we could do something about that in the future.

Right.

And even that question of like, why do you feel the way that you do can come from 2 really different places. From one place, it can come from a place of really empathetic understanding and curiosity and a wanting to understand. And from the other, from another place, Um, I could see it also coming from a place of somebody wanting to invalidate it, right? So they try to share and you say, well, that's not a good enough reason. It's not helpful. And that's very judgmental.

Hugely judgmental. Yeah. And again, I think that's all about the tonality and stuff, isn't it?

Yes.

It's about, it's about gently saying again, because I think, um, I can't remember what it was. I think it was one of my trainings that I did is you never ask your clients why. And I was like, well, no, you do, because I think question, but again, it's, it's asking it in a, I think the, the words are in an empathetic way is the way you, where you put it. It's saying, I'm interested. I'm curious.

Right.

I need, I want to understand this with you. Not, I want you to tell me so I can invalidate you.

Right. But people make this assumption of criticism. And so if somebody asks them why, you know, there's this Defensiveness sometimes that comes with it.

Yeah.

And so it's about creating a space where you can trust the intention of caring and curiosity instead of having this assumption that you're going to criticize me if I just try to explain myself. And that's really difficult. But I think about it a lot in conflict of changing the mindset from me versus you to me and you together as a team facing a problem.

Yeah, most definitely. There's something I was looking at the other day. It was some relationship seminar. And I can't remember what they called it. But it was— and I'm not sure if this is relevant or not, it just popped into my head— is if I'm coming at a place where I'm making it about me, I'm coming from a place of shame. And if I'm coming from a place where I make it about you, I'm coming from a place of blame. Um, and it was about how we can come together in a space where we don't make it about either of us.

Right.

And it's about just saying, okay, this is a problem. How do we resolve the problem? Because if I'm coming from a place where I'm accepting all the responsibility, uh, the lady labeled it as a shame space because all I'm doing is self-blaming. But if I'm then coming from it as actually, this is all your responsibility, I'm just coming from a a blaming you space.

That's so interesting. It reminds me of a Buddhist phrase. They were talking about enlightenment. They say, if you are blaming other people, you're not enlightened at all. If you blame yourself, you're halfway there. And if you blame no one, then you have achieved enlightenment.

Okay. I think that's, that's the way, isn't it though?

Is it?

Because most of the time there isn't a need to blame.

It's just not helpful. Like, what does it matter whose fault it is? How does that solve the problem?

Yeah, I guess it depends what it is. But yeah.

True. If you were talking about, um, what caused a situation to happen so that you can avoid it happening again in the future, it's important to identify how it happened. But if you're just trying to say, you deserve to feel bad about this, this is your fault, you're the reason that we're all suffering, that's not really helpful.

No, most definitely no. And again, most of the time it's just gonna put a bigger wedge between you than— and nothing's ever gonna get resolved, you know, because you're either gonna be one of those people that's just gonna come massively defensive and fight back, or you're gonna be someone who's so much lacking in sort of self-worth and self-esteem that you're just gonna absorb all the blame. And again, go back into this shame space, right? If you're a person that likes— not the word likes— if you're a person that tends to shame yourself, Then if someone else knows that, um, they're very likely to use that against you and blame you for everything as well, so that you can just own everything that's wrong in a relationship.

Oh, there's actually a therapy intervention style, and they work on, um, like social effectiveness skills. And one of the skills for self-worth effectiveness is not over-apologizing, because a lot of people will do that.

Hmm.

Um, sometimes it comes out of a trauma response. There's a lot that I could have a whole hour just to talk about that. But I thought it interesting to kind of pop in here is sometimes, uh, our first instinct is to just want to apologize, take the blame so that we can move on. We don't have to have an argument. And that falls under kind of like the submission or avoidance, um, behaviors that I was talking about earlier. And again, it doesn't resolve the conflict. It just makes you feel bad.

Yeah, most definitely, because you're just accepting all the responsibility, aren't you? It's interesting because we could— I've actually done a couple of other podcasts. So there is the one that we talked about, about touch earlier on, about hugging. I've done a podcast about the significance of human touch. Uh, so done one about apologizing, why people won't apologize, people find it difficult to apologize, why people over-apologize. Um, again, when I'm generally being myself and when I'm working with my clients, it's just like, sorry once is enough. Generally, again, depending on the repercussions of what you've done, because sometimes you might need to, some people might need you to apologize more than once if they're really struggling with what you've done. But generally, you can't keep apologizing regardless of the thing that you've done.

Right.

Because, you know, sorry doesn't really go anywhere after a certain amount of time. And you are gonna generally, if you have to keep saying sorry for something, you are gonna Some kind of resentment or defense or is gonna come up within you eventually. Well, you can't— I've said sorry so many times, I can't say it again. But it clearly isn't enough for the person that—

Right.

They're not accepting your apology for whatever reason.

Yeah. Yeah. Because again, it's that actions thing rather than words. I mean, this is all fascinating conversation, isn't it? There's so much to become unpicked. So if you were to I mean, I guess you'd had to write a summary for your research. If you could sort of summarize what your findings were so that people can take away if they are, and again, this doesn't matter what relationship you're in at all, does it? I mean, I was thinking of work relationships even as well.

Yes.

You know, if someone's, something's happened at work and you wanna talk to your boss about something or you need to bring someone in to talk to them about something, is Is, is there are so many ways that this can be used in all types of relationships. How would you maybe summarize the mindfulness approach to conflict?

So I, I have effectively put all of my research into one meme, and it goes, keep calm and be kind to yourself and others.

Okay. So that's, that's really kind of, kind of simple, isn't it?

Yeah, that's really what it boils down to, you know, is find, find ways to help soothe yourself so that you can come from a calm and centered and grounded place and offer yourself kindness, and then let that kindness overflow to whoever you're interacting with.

And I guess there's also the remaining in a mindful space regardless of the response that you get too, right? Because—

Yeah, that's a really difficult practice. Honestly, John, I've been doing that for 10+ years and I'm still working on it. You know, so it's, it's also about not getting, not getting discouraged. You know, you might try and you might get it right 1 out of 10 times. Well, that's better than zero. And the more you practice it, 2 out of 10 times, 3 out of 10 times. You know, and that does make a difference in your relationships and it makes a difference for yourself.

But I guess the kind of the other, the other point to that is if, if it doesn't matter sometimes how mindful you are, the other person isn't going to respond. They're going to react and they're going to react in a different way. And I guess it's then, I guess my next thought process, my next mindfulness step for me would be, okay, I'm going to enter this in a mindful space. I'm going to be kind. I'm going to be nonjudgmental. I'm going to do what I need to do in order to try and create the conditions where this works as well as possible. But I also need to be mindful that this might not make the blindest bit of difference to the person I'm talking to. And I still need to become, I still need to maintain that mindful space for myself.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that comes down to boundaries. I think of boundaries on a spectrum from connected to protected, right? And of course, the middle ground is the healthiest area. And there's a lot of, you know, difference in what that can look like based on relationships, goals, etc. But it comes down to if a person's not safe to be around, they're not safe to be around. And you have to do what you have to do to make sure that you stay protected.

Yeah.

You know, you can't let somebody abuse you and make you feel like a trash person, no matter how mindful you are.

For sure. You can't keep being mindful with them, can you?

Right. You don't want, you're not, you're nobody's, you're nobody's punching bag.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My intention now is to never talk to you again. It doesn't matter what I say, how I say it, what I do or how I do it. It's not going to work for you. Right. So I need to be, uh, I need to be very self-aware and self-protective and, and, and just generally do good for me by not being around this relationship as much as possible.

Yeah, which is sad and difficult. And I would highly recommend working with a professional if you're struggling, you know, with these feelings. There's no need to do it alone.

Definitely not. There are people out there, Kira included, and myself, that will be able to assist you if there are relational difficulties that you're experiencing and you want to change the space for yourself. Kira, we, we need to talk about loads of different things, don't we? Everything that you've brought up today, which We could have another 45-hour episode on talking about. Um, is there anything that we haven't touched on about the research that you wanted to mention before we finish up? And then maybe tell people if they wanted to reach out to you, how they can get in touch.

I think we pretty much covered everything from the research side, but I will say on my website, which is, uh, connectionsmindbody.com. I actually did create a Creating Mindful Connections, like, video course that's broken down into 4 modules that people could go and check out if they were interested. So the modules are communication, physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, and personal wellness. And so you can use this for romantic relationships, friendships, families, whoever. But it's just a little video course with some more practices, education.

So awesome. So do go check that out if you're interested. I might even have a look at that myself. Because, you know, the work that you do, the knowledge that you've got is, is amazing. So thank you so much for taking the time to do the research in the first place and, and then putting it out in the world, which is going to help people to be able to hopefully improve how they communicate In their relationships.

That's the hope.

It's all about connecting with self and others because I truly believe that is what makes life worth living. We are here to connect.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. We are a connected species and it's a fundamental need to have a level of connection in order to feel, to be fulfilled and feel whole and happy.

Yeah.

I could go on about a ton of research about loneliness and the problems with loneliness, but I won't because I know we're running out of time. Let's come back.

Let's do a part 3 for sure, because again, that's a very interesting topic in itself. Um, the amount of people I speak to that are in relationships because they don't want to be lonely.

Yeah.

The things that the loneliness brings up for people.

Yeah.

So it can be a really, really tough space.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, um, Kira, thank you for your time.

Um, thank you, John. Thank you for having me.

We'll book in, and I think that— I think loneliness will be a great topic to talk about. Oh, and it's, uh, my delight to welcome back, uh, for the 3rd time to The Relationship Guy podcast. I'm thinking of changing the name to The Kira and John Show. Kira Markoff.

Thank you. It's good to be back, John. I appreciate it.

So the, the, in the last, at the end of the last episode we, that we spoke, we talked about loneliness and, and you kindly agreed to come back on and, and, and have a topic of conversation again around this time of the year, being that we're recording this just before Christmas, going into the festive season, loneliness can be one of the, one of the big issues, can't it, around about this time of the year? So I think it's really an important topic to discuss. Um, but before we do that, please just remind people who you are.

So my name is Dr. Kira Markoff. I have a PhD in psychology. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I work as a mental health therapist, and I'm also a trained yoga teacher. So I have expertise in mindfulness, yoga, also romantic relationships. That was the focus of my dissertation, which you and I talked about, um, during parts 1 and 2. So now we're here to talk about loneliness, which I'm super excited about. You want me to just jump off, John, or do you have a question?

No, no, I don't at all. It was something that you brought up and something that is close to your own kind of heart and thoughts as well. So please do. Just let's talk. Yeah.

So I'll start off with my personal anecdote on loneliness. So I have, for the last little bit more than a year, have been working 100% from home, doing all remote telehealth work. So I talk to people on the computer all day long, literally from the time I start to the time I end. I'm a therapist. That's what I do. I talk to people for a living.

Yeah.

And the last few months, I've just been noticing that I was having feelings similar to loneliness, just feeling disconnected, feeling isolated, feeling like my social needs weren't being met. And it really led me to dig into What do we need? And of course, the difference— there are going to be differences person to person based on what our social needs are. But essentially, as humans, what do we need in order to get our social needs met so that we don't experience the distress and all of the negative consequences that come with loneliness?

Okay.

So all of the social needs that we have, I think it really comes down to what is loneliness. And I think it's important to have a conversation first about loneliness versus just being alone.

Yeah, we touched on this before the show, didn't we? Because, um, I've been in situations like when I've been in groups of people or something, and I would say that I felt alone, but actually, do I feel alone or do I feel lonely? It's something that kind of you've highlighted for me about how I actually feel.

And some of it is semantics, but I personally feel that part of what psychology does is give us words for things that we already know exist. Like, I already know how I'm feeling, but sometimes psychology gives us the words to be more specific about it and to communicate it more clearly with others and to understand it within ourselves. But you know what you're feeling and the discomfort, and you know that hollowness or emptiness that you feel, or that longing for connection. You know that feeling even if you can't put words to it. And I think that's really important. And so when we talk about loneliness, it's exactly that. Loneliness is a craving or a desire for connection. And you can be physically alone, or you can be in a group of people and feel that disconnection.

Yeah.

Especially, um, just kind of as a side note, when people talk about trauma, trauma is, um, kind of defined as a disease of disconnection. And so people who have experienced trauma will be especially prone to experiencing loneliness because of that internal sense of disconnection, or nobody, nobody really sees me, nobody knows me, nobody understands me. As people, um, we have this need to feel seen, truly seen, to feel appreciated, and, you know, to feel like we matter and somebody cares about us. Like, those are the longings and the connection, or the, the cravings that we have for connection.

Mm-hmm.

And so loneliness, if we want to target loneliness, especially around the holidays, it's important to ask that, that Question for self-reflection. Am I alone? Do I need to put myself around people more where I have the opportunities for connection? Or am I around people in a sufficient measure and there's an internal barrier that's keeping me from feeling like I'm able to truly connect with these people?

Yeah. Yeah. And in your, your kind of personal— so I was just thinking about my personal circumstance where I feel alone. I think it's because I've probably switched off somewhere on the inside, which is subconsciously, deliberately disconnecting in order to provide a space, maybe for some kind of safety, perhaps. But it's— there's a disconnect there which then makes me feel lonely. In your instance, you're saying that— so with your work, how is that manifesting for you?

I'm going to answer this in 2 parts because I want to highlight something that you said because I loved it very much. You said that either subconsciously or deliberately, we, we switch off that connection out of a feeling that I need to protect myself. And that's really important. And I really think that goes along well with the conversation on loneliness and trauma, is that feeling connected can feel very vulnerable. And so if I'm feeling like I need to protect myself, I'm going to shut off those, those connection valves, if you will. So I think that was a really important thing that you just kind of intuitively hit on. Which I think was awesome. But in my own work, for me, it is 100%. I am not around other human beings, and I crave that. I need that being in the physical presence of people. And it's very different than virtual. And people talk about social media all the time, and people will spend ungodly amounts of time on social media.

Let's grow.

Let's grow. Yeah.

And it's just one of my colleagues said that she had one of her clients pull up their— your phone will automatically track how much time you spend on certain apps. This girl, teenage girl, 17 hours in a single day on TikTok.

Jingle bells.

So not only is this an adult problem, but it's also a teenage problem. And even adolescents, sometimes children. I actually did some research a while back on social media, and what it is, is you get a facade of connection. So your brain will do that quick release. You'll get a quick shot of dopamine, which is that, you know, in your brain's reward chemical in response to, quote unquote, connecting with somebody on social media.

Right.

But it's like eating cotton candy. It's really great for 5 seconds and then it's gone, you know? And then you get— sometimes you'll be on social media an hour, 2 hours, whatever, even just 30 minutes, right? And then get off and you feel— I don't know if you've ever experienced it, but almost a hollowness in your belly that's like, I feel like I was just eating social connection, right? I feel like I was just taking it in, but now there's nothing there. I feel empty still. It was not satisfying or fulfilling in any way.

Yeah.

And I think that's the danger that we face in modern society, is people feel like we're able to connect. It's so easy. I can talk to people anytime, anywhere through social media.

Yeah.

But is it really satisfying the social needs that we have?

No, no, I must say I am not a scroller. I, and for my business, that's a very bad thing because—

No, I'm right there with you.

The algorithm states that I need to spend time on my social media interacting with other people. Otherwise, they show my stuff to nobody.

Yeah.

But it's just not for me. I'm not that kind of person that's just gonna sit there and I must say TikTok, I have lost myself in TikTok for maybe an hour, but maybe not longer than that. But actually, because there's some very interesting videos and stuff, rather than looking at it as a way of connecting with people, it's an informative side, I think. And I like short, brief videos too because of the way my brain works and taking on information. So yeah, but I don't use it for socially connecting, but I can completely see how people do and how they can see it as a way of, of like believing that they're having connections. Right. But like you said, completely hollow in the actual feelings that you get from it.

Exactly. And I mean, just imagine that you spend, if you are a person who is on social media, you feel like you connect with people on social media and then you go through something difficult in your life. Are you going to reach out to to that network to talk about an issue that you're having or get any kind of support or comfort from that. And that, that is a difficulty too. And, you know, even if you do, are you generally just broadcasting it, or are you having that connection with one person where they can say, I see you, I hear you, I'm listening to you?

Yeah.

You know, in the same kind of way as just somebody popping up one of those caring reactions on Facebook.

Yeah, yeah. I think there's 2 reasons for doing it, aren't there, generally? And I would suggest that one of them is I just want some engagement with some— from someone. I'm just putting this out there because I want people to know and to see it and maybe feel heard or something in some way. Or I don't know how to necessarily reach out to someone on a one-to-one basis. I'm hoping that someone reaches out to me to ask if I'm If I'm okay. But like you said, you're not really reaching out to those close to you that you maybe have a connection with because you would just call them or text them or, or something anyway, wouldn't you, David? I mean, it'd be much more of a personal communication.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so social media can be really difficult and it can create what I would consider like an unnecessary sense of loneliness. You know, when we spend more time having these cotton candy interactions than actually nurturing and cultivating fulfilling connections with people, you know, in real life. And that's not to say that long distance relationships cannot be satisfying and fulfilling. There's, you know, if you are having those one-to-one interactions, you are having actual in-depth conversations with people, you can have.

Mm-hmm.

fulfilling internet friendships. It's still different than sitting one-to-one in a room, and I personally believe that. I will always believe that. And maybe that's just my personal nervous system needs that to feel fulfilled. Yours might not. That's different than just kind of broadcasting to whoever happens to be listening, and there's no genuine relationship there. So there are kind of tiers. I don't want anyone out there to think that I'm bashing internet friends in their entirety, because that's not what I mean.

Right.

Um, but there There is a need to be more mindful or aware of what am I putting out and in what way, and are my needs being met? Am I feeling fulfilled? Am I feeling connected? Um, and if not, again, is it because there is not availability of people to connect with? Is it that, that external actual aloneness?

Yeah.

Or are there people available for connection and there's something inside of me that's just not allowing me to feel that? Uh, there was a poet, his name was Rumi, from India a very long time ago, and he said, um, your job is not to go and seek out love. Your job is to seek out and remove any barriers to love that exist within you.

Okay. Yeah, that's a really interesting thing to say because it's so true, isn't it? Again, if we go out seeking externally, Um, where does the internal stuff— again, like you said, there's that it needs to come from within.

And you work with a lot of couples, John. How often do you hear couples saying they feel alone in their relationship?

Yeah, yeah. And it's a regular thing because there's the lack of connection that's there.

So let's say a couple comes to you and says, you know, my partner sits right next to me, but I just feel, I feel so lonely. I feel alone in the relationship. What would you tell them?

Well, again, I think it's coming back to actually what is going on within you that, that's disconnected within you as far as this relationship is concerned. And then what's missing from the relationship that means you may have disconnected or they have this, you don't feel that connection with them any longer. If in some cases that connection was ever there in the first place, because we know that perhaps we've all entered into relationships which haven't been right for was from the start. Um, but yeah, I think there is really an internalization there again, because, because given my personal example of how I know that I can, I can withdraw, um, yeah, from certain circumstances when, when, when I don't feel safe or secure. Um, or is it something that's broken down between the two of, two people in the relationship or something that switched off in somebody else that So that exploration is always going to be, okay, what's really going on here is why do you feel disconnected in this way?

I like that. So then it's almost again asking that reflection question of, do I need to do the internal work? Or, you know, is there an action where I need to go out and seek, you know, that external fulfillment, which is just to be around people so that I'm available to receive the connection, you know, I'm available to engage in it. And sometimes it really is like, you just need to go out and be around people, like call up your friend, go for a cup of coffee, or just even— I used to, for a while before I met my husband, I lived alone. And I would— you're gonna laugh at me— I would go to a local park, and I would sit by the pond, and I would read a book. And just, just being in the vicinity of people, you know, there were people walking around the pond, there were, you know, families in the park.

Mm-hmm.

Just being around people helped to fill that social need for me.

And you can laugh at me in return because I used to do exactly the same thing.

Oh, good.

Coffee shops, things like that. Or libraries, when libraries were a place before I had computers and stuff and I was studying or something like that, rather than sit at home by myself and study, I'd go and sit in the library and study. Or I said, just go, I just go and grab myself a coffee and just sit there by myself and watch people, sometimes read, whatever it would be, but just to create that space because I'm very much a people person in short bursts. I like, you know, I like to be, like you said, I like my hit of being around people.

Yeah.

I also really like my own space. But it's just being mindful that actually sometimes your own space isn't the healthiest thing for you to keep kind of hiding away in. Uh, and, and then when you, especially kind of what we've been through with the pandemic and stuff as well, right? There's been a huge amount of disengagement from social interaction and how uncomfortable it was for some people that I was talking to to get back into. I mean, I jumped in feet first as soon as I could.

Um, yeah.

Get back out into the world to reconnect. Um, but there were some people that found it really difficult and were quite, actually, I went out with someone for lunch and they were like, I don't know if I really want to be here because this is the first time I've been surrounded by more than sort of 3 or 4 people in the last 18 months. So there was a massive disconnect, I think, that went on there too.

Yeah, for sure. But you also, you bring up a good point of it's always a balance and every person, that balance point is going to be on a different place of the spectrum from never being around people, being physically alone all the time to constantly being surrounded by a group of people. Neither extreme is healthy. Humans are social creatures. We need to be in a social group to some extent in order to be healthy, to thrive, to live our best life. And, you know, we can talk in a minute about statistics of loneliness.

Yeah.

But then the other side is also not healthy, to need to be around people all the time. There are a lot of people who, when they're by themselves, they immediately feel mental distress. And just not being able to sit with yourself, be comfortable with yourself, to enjoy any kind of stillness or solitude. So both are important to be able to enjoy alone time, enjoy solitude, and then also to have meaningful connections with people. And like you said, sometimes that might just be in short bursts and then your social battery is drained and you go to be by yourself. That's where you get terms like introvert and extrovert, right? Where do you get your energy? Is it from being alone or is it from being around people?

Yeah. Yeah. And then the balance between the two. It's interesting. I had, I had a client recently who was very much that person. They couldn't be by themselves. They said that even if they got in the car for 5 minutes to go to the shop, they'd have to ring a friend. They couldn't be in their own space for very long because the thoughts that they were trying to run away from are the ones that they were finding it difficult to, to process in that alone time. Um, was too much for them to cope And to that person, I would recommend therapy.

Um, and not as a joke, like seriously, because there's, there's things there that need to be processed for sure. Um, I was recently working with a client who said a similar thing. He just always was either listening to something or had people around because his thoughts were just so unbearable. And we started out with doing, um, 3 to 5 minute guided meditations because your brain is being told what to think, and you have things that are pleasant to focus on. And so it was an accessible kind of entry level into being with myself, being in silence, just me and, you know, the stillness. And so that's kind of where we started, and he's progressing well. I'm proud.

Good. Yes. Yeah. Like you said, it's about being able to be okay, learning how to be okay in that space, and Again, in the case of my client was, okay, what are the thoughts that you're trying to run away from? What are they? What are you trying to avoid? And how, what meaning are you giving those thoughts, which mean they're difficult for you to, to sit with? And how are we now going to process those in a way that you're going to manage them better so that you don't have to worry about being with them when you're by yourself? And hopefully, and then eventually, that they then come back in a way that causes you that kind of worry and distress that they might You might be thinking they're going to cause you in the first place. Because sometimes they don't, right? Sometimes you're just worried about thinking about things because you feel that they're going to cause you a certain amount of distress. And then you actually really think about it and go, oh, okay, that wasn't so bad after all.

Yeah, it's almost like when people are worried about having a panic attack, the anxiety about having a panic attack causes the panic attack.

Yeah, most definitely.

Which is unfortunate.

Yeah. So with that, like you said, so there are varying kind of different ways that we can feel Lonely.

Yes. Yep. So we've kind of talked about really 3 different types or styles of loneliness. One is I physically don't have people around to be able to connect with.

Right.

And we talked about some good ways to cope with that is put yourself in social situations, either, you know, to be able to interact with people directly, calling a friend to hang out with, going to spend time with family, whoever you have around. Maybe this is not one we talked about, but this is one that came to my head. joining some kind of class. Maybe it's a fitness class or an, you know, an art class, cooking class, right? Going to actually be around people. Libraries have free programming that you can also attend. Sometimes local churches or religious groups will have free programming that you can attend just as a way to put yourself in the vicinity of other people. We also talked about going and sitting at a park or sitting in a coffee shop where you're not necessarily having direct interactions if you don't want to have conversation with people, but you're at least around other people. people to remind yourself, I'm not alone in this world, to feel connected to the other human beings that are also sharing this space and sharing this time with us. Sometimes that can just be enough to satisfy the social need that you're having. It doesn't necessarily need to be, you know, an interaction. It can just be a reminder that I'm not alone on this earth.

Yeah, I think that's probably something that resonates with me about going to the gym in the mornings. I go to the gym almost every morning at the moment, and I think it it satiates that need to be around people, even though I might have my music on. I do say hello to people and fist bump a few people and whatever it might be. So that there is a certain amount of social interaction. Occasionally, I'll stop—

Yeah.

Conversations with people too. But like you said, it's that I've had my fill, like my dopamine hit or my fill up of social interactions of being around people's energy today. day. Yeah, might not necessarily mean I need to do that for the rest of the day.

Exactly. Yeah, I remember when I used to practice regularly at a yoga studio, at the end of the class, we had the cue of look around at the people that you've shared this space and time with. And it was really uncomfortable, right, to like look around at random strangers and like make eye contact because like, that's not, you know, like that's not something that we do. Especially because sometimes yoga can feel very vulnerable. So it was uncomfortable for a lot of people. But it was also very meaningful to look at the other people who had, who had shown up, who were also kind of there on their mat with their practice, you know, that you were in community with these people. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, it can be very powerful.

Yeah.

So if you're a person who's feeling that external aloneness, those are some really easy ways To get kind of that hit of connection, like you said, you know, just reminding yourself you're not alone on this planet. Now, if you were a person who is already around people and you have that internal barrier, let's talk about some things maybe that we can do to work on that. John, you care to kick that off? Or do you want to hear from me? I teed you up.

Yeah, that's, that's the, that's the kind of, okay, that's, that's what I do type thing. Yeah. So again, it's that disconnect within me is generally why have I gone into myself. And I need to disengage from the disengagement, really. So I would then personally make an effort to reach out to try and establish some kind of connection with somebody, even if it was just something like, how's your day? What's been going on? And mostly I would make it about them. I would, because I'm a very questiony type person because of the job I do anyway.

It's also a lot safer to ask about you than to share about me.

Definitely. Because if I'm not in a great space, I'm probably not going to want to express myself too much or engage too much about me. So I would generally for myself, if I felt that way, I would reach out to other people. And again, it's a distraction type thing too, right, is to engage in something which isn't about you. Is to find out about somebody else and to find out how they are and what's going on for them. And you can put some of your energy into the interest of somebody else and being part of their experience rather than having to worry about your own experiences. So I personally, that's probably something that I would do if I felt like I was kind of becoming too insular and struggling going to the next part of that, which is just not being okay by being by myself, but actually maybe choosing to be by myself too much.

You know, you actually hit on a therapy principle that I don't even know if you know exists. It's called opposite action. Have you ever heard of it?

No.

No. Okay, well, I was going to explain it for the listeners anyways. I was just curious if you knew what you were doing. So in a therapeutic style called dialectical behavior therapy, that there's a lot of research and evidence behind it, very effective treatment for a lot of different kinds of mental health issues. There's this principle called opposite action. Which is essentially that when we are experiencing an emotion, or let's say maybe an anxiety episode or depressive episode, the behaviors that we want to do are usually the things that are going to cause us to continue to feel more and more distressed. For example, when I'm feeling depressed, I want to go lay in my bed by myself, listen to sad music in the dark, and that's just going to make me feel more depressed. And so the idea of opposite action, I mean, it's really kind of self-explanatory, is you do the opposite of what you want to do.

Yeah.

So when you're feeling sad or when you're feeling like you want to hide or disconnect from people, you make the conscious decision to do the opposite of what you are wanting to do because you know that it is helpful for you. So when I'm wanting to disconnect and, you know, disengage from everyone, I make that conscious effort to reach out and to establish a connection with somebody in a way that feels safe with me.

Right.

And that's what you hit on too, is all of it was based around what is accessible and what feels safe and okay for me. So I'm going to specifically call somebody that I feel safe talking with. I'm going to ask them questions instead of needing to share about my own life. Right. And then as I maybe warm up, if I warm up, I might feel more comfortable, you know, sharing more, talking more. But it's all about reconnecting with self first. So I reconnected with myself. I said, man, I'm really feeling you know, disconnected, like I want to disengage, I'm going to make the conscious choice to do an opposite action. So I've checked in with myself, I've reconnected with myself. What do I need in this moment? I fulfilled that need in a way that's safe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting as well. I just thought of all the people that I probably would call that I know will only talk about themselves as well.

So I think that's a really cool You're a safe person to call because I know you're just going to talk and you're not going to ask me anything.

Exactly.

And then after about 20 minutes, I'm going to get so fed up with you talking about yourself, I'm going to think, yep, I want to be by myself again now. And then I go, I've got me hip and I'm off.

Or maybe you've gotten enough of their social energy. You kind of took it in enough that you maybe are able to call someone else where you could have an actual conversation.

Warm-up act type thing.

Yep. Your battery's now on 15%, so you can go and, you know, actually have the energy to connect with somebody in a real way instead of just like passively taking in their social energy.

Yeah, that's a really good idea. I'm maybe a bit more like what you were saying earlier on about face-to-face type energy too, right? So I would reach out and say, okay, I need to spend some time with somebody. Even if it's just going around and sitting and having a cup of tea or a coffee.

Yeah.

It's just to go, okay, I need to get out of here and have some proper, you know, someone I care about, someone that I want to have a conversation with, someone I want to be in the energy of. That's going to make me feel a bit more lively and a bit better and reconnected. So that's something else I would definitely do is if I could, if I couldn't find, if it was in, if a conversation on the phone would be enough, then Yes, but if it was again, even then, and you still wouldn't necessarily need to deep dive into how you're feeling and what's going on for you and why you're not in a good space. It's just being around someone that, you know, maybe can hold you in a certain space and not expect too much of you and, and can treat you tentatively and be in a, be in a kind of positive space with you and help draw you in and draw you out of where you've been.

That reminds me of a personal experience I had over the summer. My husband was away on work and he was gone for It was like, you know, 2 weeks. And I'm a very social person. I work 100% from home. So when he's not home, I'm literally alone.

Yeah.

So I just remember, you know, I was alone for 4 or 5 days straight and I was like, man, I can't do this much longer. So I called up my mom who lives an hour and a half away and I was like, can I come over tonight? So I made the trip, 3-hour round trip, just to spend some, you know, physical time with people because I was like, man, I need this for my well-being.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely worth the 3-hour trip. Yeah.

And I think it's important to acknowledge that sometimes people don't have close connections in a physical proximity, which is unfortunate. That's not ideal because like we've said, it's at least for our nervous systems, so much more fulfilling to be in the physical presence of a person. But we do have wonderful technology. I know I spent some time earlier talking about the dangers or the consequences of social media, but if you're not in physical proximity with somebody, Being able to do a video chat with somebody, sometimes it's not ideal. It's not the best option, but it might be good enough to get you through a difficult time.

Yeah.

And so I do think it's important to acknowledge sometimes we can't do the best or the most ideal thing, but we can do something that's good enough.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I agree that Zoom, you can tell by that amount of how How their shares went through the roof during COVID right? It was, it was very much FaceTime, WhatsApp, video. Everything else was just a, you know, in some instances it was just a godsend that you had that ability just to see someone. Hello, you know, and spend that time talking to them on a video. But like you said, it's not quite, I mean, for some people it might, it might be just everything they need. Um, like you said, for us, perhaps not, not quite. Um, but, um, I mean, I was so thankful that, you know, when I was working through, through COVID, I was still able to work with clients and I was, you know, keeping it all as safe as possible, still able to see people face to face because of being in the profession that I was. I went back into doing therapy at the time. Um, coaching wasn't something that people were really looking for through COVID. But they were still looking for therapy. So I went back into doing some therapy work. And I was— it was such— it was for me, it was like a lifesaver, because I'm still able to leave the house. I was still able to go to work as normal. I was still able to have some kind of meaningful in-depth conversations with people and experience that connection. And I think I would have been completely stuffed if I hadn't been able to do that.

Yeah. Yep. And I think about it, um, I think about social connection in terms of food, you know, and I use a lot of the same kind of terminology, like, you know, what's nourishing for you, what's fulfilling, what's satisfying that you would think of when you talk about eating. And so for me, um, it's like if I'm starving, half a sandwich isn't gonna fill me up, but it's, it's going to be good enough for now. And that's kind of how I think about video chatting. It's like if I'm starving for something, I'll eat half a sandwich. I'm still gonna want more. But I'll feel a little better.

Yeah, it would tide me over for now.

Right, exactly. Yeah. But I wanted to talk about, too, the importance and the consequences of feeling lonely and having that distress. I do have some statistics that I wanted to share, John, if that's okay.

Yeah, of course. Please do.

Sure. So I found some good statistics on a website called campaigntoendloneliness.org. So if you're interested and want to learn more, feel free to check that out. I'll just read a couple that I thought were particularly significant. One here, it says loneliness can increase the risk of early mortality, which is early death, by 26%.

Wow.

26%. It puts people at a greater risk for poor mental health, specifically depression. Research estimates that 60% of people experiencing chronic loneliness— that's Loneliness over a longer period of time. Um, there is 60% of people experiencing chronic loneliness experience mental distress, which is compared to only 15% of people who are not chronically lonely.

Right. Wow.

So that's a difference of 45% just based on chronic loneliness. And then the last one I'll share, um, that I thought was interesting, and, um, It's estimated that loneliness costs UK employers £2.5 billion per year due to the impact on employee sickness, caring activity, productivity, and voluntary staff turnover. Wow.

Wow. I mean, that's huge, isn't it?

It's huge. And so I know we've spent some time talking about different kinds of loneliness and, you know, how to get your needs met if they're not met. But I also just wanted to share some of those statistics to say, Don't take this lightly. Yeah, you know, loneliness can really impact your well-being, your relationships, your ability to live a life that feels fulfilling and meaningful to you. So if this speaks to you, you know, I would say use this as your message to do something.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. If there's something, you know, if it's— if this is going on for you, um, and especially like I said, at this time of year, it can feel so close, can't it, than normal because of— it is supposed to be the time where we meet up and have a jolly old time with friends, family, and everything else. And some people just won't be able to do that. But like you said, I mean, the mortality statistics.

Yep.

I mean, that shows the long-term damage to your health and not getting that I always talk about human beings as a— we are a connected species and we—

Yeah.

We can't— I mean, there are people that go and disappear into caves, I guess, and become hermits and whatever. But generally, as a species, we need to be connected to feel safe, to feel happy, to feel good, to be fulfilled. And I think I've referred to the study maybe in our episodes previously, the Yale Grant Glueck study, which has now been going for about 80 years, and it's a study into happiness, which says the key factor to happiness and fulfillment in someone's life is the quality of their relationships. You know, so to be able to have quality, at least one quality relationship in your life, gonna make a huge difference. But, you know, I mean, even that, I mean, the finances thing and work and that, I mean, it's a huge figure. But I think the actual mortality rate was just astounding because it just goes to show what long-term detrimental impacts being in that space can have.

Yeah. Yep, absolutely. Yeah. When I read them, I was just astonished.

And that website was, and that's a UK-based organization.

Yeah, it's, uh, campaigntoendloneliness.org.

Okay, cool. And if they—

and I know you were talking about— oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Have they got some kind of helpline and stuff that people can reach out to? Did— do you know?

You know, they probably do.

I will have—

yeah, loneliness. Uh, let's see. Oh, that's a conference.

That's not what I was looking for.

I'm sure that they do.

Cool. If not, we'll try and find something and put in the show notes anyway.

Yeah. I was gonna say, I'm— nothing is like jumping out immediately, but I will try to track something down for you, John, that you can put with the podcast.

Excellent. Thank you very much, Kerry. Um, wow. Okay. So on, you know, so we've talked about what people can do about loneliness. What would you say are the other causes of loneliness? So we talked about this internal space that people find themselves in. Maybe actually, you know, I'm just thinking that their choice of relationships, like that, that kind of unsafe space that relationships can bring up for people if you've had trauma, if you've had a lot of difficult relational spaces, that you might revert or refrain from engaging with people and, you know, find, like you said, a safer space alone. What else might be going on for for people that makes them, make them feel lonely or retreat back into a space?

A big one that's coming up for me right now, and I'll kind of share personally, is grief. So especially during this holiday time, you know, it is a time for spending time with people, for connecting, for having parties. But I think it's also a time when we, when it really hits us, the people that we've lost, because we really, we want to be able to be with them during this time. And we can't. So it's one of those times that one of those grief waves really hits people. And sometimes that can be like almost a barrier to connecting with the people who are still around us. And I'm feeling that personally. And if you're not an animal person, you just ignore this. But I lost my dog about 2 months ago, as you know, John.

Yeah.

And as I was setting up the Christmas decorations, and, you know, as we're preparing everything, I just keep thinking like, Man, I really wish that he were still here. You know, I put up, I put up Christmas stockings for my dog. So I have his stocking up, we have his ashes on the mantle, you know, and I just keep seeing that. And I just keep, you know, getting hit with those pangs of like, he's not here this holiday season. And he loves Christmas. And we always used to get him special toys and treats and stuff. So grief really hits hard around this season. And I think that's a big factor.

Do you think like if you weren't, if you weren't Like with your husband and stuff that you would, that, that would make you go into withdrawn space because of the grief?

You know, I have even felt that even having, you know, my, my other dog and my husband around is like, if I can't be with him, I don't want to be with anyone.

Right.

You know, and luckily I'm a therapist and like kind of emotionally regulated enough to be able to say like, Kira, that's not healthy. Like you can feel your grief and still move into connection. But There are some people who, who don't, you know, who get kind of stuck in that feeling.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm just thinking of some people that I've spoken to in the past. I had a client many years ago whose son died when they were on holiday. He was only about 20. And he'd been dead about 15 years. And she just, she'd completely broken away from every other member of the family. She'd so much so that her daughter had gone and lived on the other side of the world, that she kind of felt like she'd pushed her to the other side of the world. But she had actually had no time for any kind of other relationship because of the grief over her son. Yeah.

And I saw this, it was an image one time that I saw that I really loved, but I'll do my best to explain it in words. It was talking about grief and how at first we have a container and the grief fills up the whole container. And then over time, grief stays the same size, but our container grows to then become available for other things as well. You know, but for some people, the container doesn't grow because we just get stuck in that overwhelming grief feeling that we don't have the availability to let in those other people and those other connections, no matter how much we might want to.

Yeah. And can you just repeat what you said about the quote? You know, if you don't want to be, can't be around that, your dog, you don't want to be around anybody.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I just had this feeling of like, if I can't be with him, I don't want to be with anyone.

Yeah. Yep. And I guess that is going to be a very common sort of thought when you are missing somebody, something that much. Yep.

And, you know, we've talked before about the key is to find connections that feel safe for you. And so one thing for people who are struggling with this and kind of looking for, well, how do I get around that? One thing might be to connect with people who are feeling that same grief, or a similar kind of grief, and be able to connect with them over this experience of grief being a barrier to connection.

Yeah, that's an amazing thing to say. When I was working for the NHS, I used to run the grief workshops. It was about bringing people together in that space and being able to share. Because, you know, if you are struggling in that space, it is hard to find somebody that you, that you feel will understand you at least. Yeah, because I can say I understand you till the cows come home, right? You know, whether you believe that I do or not is a completely different thing.

Exactly. And we need that felt sense of being seen and being understood.

Yeah, no, that's a really good idea. So yeah, again, if that's you, if you are struggling in that space, there are, and maybe this, there are, I can't remember the people that used to hold our workshops for us, but there are organisations out there that do bring people together that are in similar circumstances, not just around grief, but I think in other areas of Struggles as well, that you, you can meet up with like-minded or similar situation to people, then, um, it can be really useful to, like you said, engage as much as you possibly can with someone who you believe actually gets where you are.

I'm going to pop this one in here too, because I know we didn't have a lot of time to talk about it. Substance use is another big one that creates a barrier to connection with self and with others. So I know we could do, again, we could do a whole nother talk just on that, but I just wanted to at least mention it, you know, that that is another thing that, you know, impedes connection.

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. I can, I can just think of people off the top of my head. Um, yep. I know, or I've worked with them. And again, especially around alcohol, that you just lose yourself in the bottle type thing, don't you? And it becomes your solace and nothing else. You don't need anything else or seek anything else to, to help you out of that space.

And we get stuck in the shame of it, you know, and shame at its very core says, don't look at me, you know. And so when we're hiding emotionally or physically, there's not much space for connection. We don't want connection. It doesn't feel safe. We don't feel like we deserve it, maybe.

No, no, definitely. Again, that's that self-reflection there. What kind of relationship are you having with yourself, which, which is leading you into this kind of maybe introverted space, which isn't the healthiest thing for you to do? And is there people there? Are there people there? I guess, you know, this is why, you know, finding clubs, establishments, organizations and stuff where you maybe can feel some part of something. It's really important, like you said, because there may be no one around that you feel like you can really turn to.

Yeah, I recently connected with an organization that works with recovery. It was called Recovered Life. They have a newsletter and a podcast. I was recently a guest there when we talked about hidden trauma and the effect on substance use and recovery. So Recovered Life might be a good resource for anyone looking to get connected.

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Um, we have been talking. I can't believe how quickly the time has flown yet again talking to you. Um, is there anything that you haven't said that you wanted to talk about, um, today that we haven't touched on?

Well, as a mindfulness expert, I want to pop this in here. Mindfulness at its core is about connection. Connecting with your body, with this moment, with your inner self, and also being able to connect with the external environment, nature, other people. So mindfulness can also be a really wonderful tool for becoming available for all the different connections.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. When I did my mindfulness training, that was one thing that I really found really unusual and that I wasn't expecting is just being present. in myself made me very present with everything else.

Yep.

You think of mindfulness like going in maybe into you and just being present with you. But actually, if you're doing the right kind of mindfulness type practice, it actually brings the whole environment around you into that present moment, doesn't it? So it can make you feel very connected to lots of things around you and not just Within yourself.

And like we've talked about, I mean, the, the key or the foundation to being able to connect with other people is to be available for connections yourself. And so for a lot of people, mindfulness is how we do that, how we become available for those connections. And this is my area of expertise. So I won't get on a particular soapbox. But we talked about this a little bit. I was gonna say we talked about this because this was what my research was on is mindfulness and romantic partner Absolutely. And so it does. It's that duality of being available for connections within yourself. And then, you know, also then being present for connecting with other people and, you know, being able to do that in a way that meets your needs and feels nourishing and, you know, recognizes it as a need that we have and not just, you know, something unimportant, which baffles me how we can feel like connections are unimportant.

But Again, that's a denial space, isn't it? Because we, I mean, even when I've said I don't need anybody, something inside of me has gone, you idiot.

I believe that comes from a place of protection. Like when we don't feel safe to connect or when we feel like the connections we have are, um, you know, maybe not available or not working in some way, we say instead of sitting with the pain of trying to connect and not being able to connect, we just say, oh, I don't need connections.

Yeah, most definitely. That's always the protective space I've gone into when I felt like, like you said, trust, you know, that people— there's just no one there that I can put my trust in. That's— I feel that's really the type thing.

Trust is a big word, John.

Huge.

But maybe the next episode is about trust.

Next time on the John and Kira Show.

Trust, trust. Yeah, it is one of those big things, isn't it? But like I said, my, as soon as I've said I don't need anyone, my brain goes, yeah, you do. Yeah, you do. You just don't want anyone at the moment because you're not, you're not comfortable with, with where you are. Um, but it's, yeah, it's really interesting stuff. Um, so if people want to reach out to you, Kira, to work with you, find out what you do a bit more, how would they do that?

From my website, connectionsmindbody.com.

Excellent. Thank you. And if you are struggling with loneliness at the moment, please do bear in mind there are things that you can do to help yourself in that space. We've thrown a few ideas around on the show, but please do reach out to any sort of professional organizations and people that can actually put you in touch with the right kind of help. Thank you so much again for your time. Absolute pleasure. Looking forward to part 4. We'll have a topic definitely, and maybe trust will, will be one of those things we talk about. Thanks, Kiran.

Thank you, John. A pleasure connecting as always.