Relationship Breakdowns And Narcissists - with Elizabeth Goddard

Hello, I'd like to say a big welcome to my guest Elizabeth Goddard, the author of Finding Lily: The A to Z of Emotional Abuse and the soon-to-be-released Three Things Not to Do When Divorcing a Narcissist. Elizabeth is also an emotional, emotional abuse therapist. And she is the founder of The Divorce Sanctuary. Not only that, but she is a speaker, which is actually where we met 5 years ago on our speaker training and have been following each other ever since. Elizabeth, welcome to The Relationship Guy podcast.

Thank you so much, John. Thank you.

Lovely to have you here. I've just done a brief introduction. If you want to tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself, that'd be great.

I work with mainly women, helping them get to a point where they're emotionally divorced from the relationship. I do work with men, but it's majority of my clients are women. And it's finding out where the abuse originally started and taking healing right the way back to that original wound. I think it's, to me, I describe it like a verruca. If you've come out of a relationship, unless you go in and really deeply heal, And find out where it's much like the varicella virus. It sits and it lays dormant and it waits until somebody else comes along and it flares up again. It triggers it again.

Okay. Yeah. It's interesting what you just said there. It waits until someone else comes along.

Yeah. Yeah.

You've done a lot of work in this field, but you know, quite clearly you have a lot of experience. I believe you've been sort of working with people for over 20 years now.

Yeah, I originally got involved in the natural, you know, that area after the birth of my daughter. And doctors didn't want to know, she just cried constantly. And so went down all sorts of routes with her, from cranial osteopathy to homeopathy. And it sort of got me on that journey of— I then went into Reiki and massage and I went down that route. And then about 10 years ago, I decided I retrained. It might be even longer than that now. And I retrained as a spiritual life coach, but even that didn't— wasn't where I am now. You know, I was working with people, you know, coaching clients. And I also was training as a Reiki master teacher. And then it was the collapse of my marriage that, you know, took me down this route. And actually it wasn't that long before I met you. So when we met, you know, at that point I was hovering in and out of trying to understand what was going on. So yeah, from that, yeah, 5 years ago. Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

Yeah, I've noticed that your message over the 5 years that I've been following you and stuff has, has changed, and the depth that you've come to with this background in this narcissistic Toxic, unhealthy relationship. Yeah. Would you be okay to sort of just tell us a little bit about how that affected you and the importance of those kinds of relationships to you?

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't the first one that I'd had, but it was the one that I decided, this is it. I'm never doing this again. And I also, I've actually said to him, I don't want anyone else to experience this. I don't want anyone else to go through what I'm going through. I had no idea at the time. Where that, that statement was going to take me. Um, I was thinking I could help people stop getting into these relationships, and I couldn't. It was helping them heal a lot quicker, understanding how to get out of these spirals that are horrific. Um, they just take you out of nowhere. Your mind just spirals out of control, and you've got this cognitive dissonance of holding these 2 conflicting Thoughts of one, the person that was wearing the mask that you thought they were, that they portrayed for such a long time, and this other person that they're playing or they played at the end of the relationship. And you—it's trying to get to that, to marry them up, to calm them down so that you can rationalize that this is who they were. They were so generous; they were so nice; they were. But actually, they weren't. It was abusive and you know controlling and. Um, this, these are actually trauma bonds. They were bonding you by trauma. And it's so, and that is such a painful and conflicting place to sit. And it's about trying, helping people get out of that as well. So on my YouTube channel, I've got quite a few meditations that I intersperse so that people can breathe through it or ground. And loneliness is another one. Yeah.

It's huge coming out of these relationships.

You know, you turn around and there's nobody around, nobody Nobody gets it. Nobody understands what you're going through.

Yeah. Yeah, no, it's interesting. I've gone the kind of opposite way to you, whereas I was working with people that were in toxic and unhealthy relationship spaces. And then I made that decision. I thought, actually, wouldn't it not be better if I could just help people not to get into this space in the first place? And now I've gone into that field is just to say, actually, it'd be much— it wouldn't be much better if you could understand how you got there in the first place. We'll come back to that point that you made when you introduced yourself, understanding how you got to that space in the first place and how you can stop yourself from doing it again. And you mentioned that, and like I said when you introduced yourself, about that, that energy about getting yourself into that space. Can you tell me a bit more about it?

Yeah, so as children we're sponges. If we've grown up in an environment that has been in some form abusive, then we will see that the behaviour in that relationship is normal. We won't see anything in any other way. It's, I wouldn't say it's comfortable, but it doesn't raise the red flags that it does for other people. And it's understanding. So we get to about 7 or 8 years old. And up until that point, we've lived in a theta state. We've lived in a hypnotic state that our brain is taking on everything as normal. This is how everybody behaves. And it might not be, you know, in certain— Certain environments it will be, but in other environments it's certainly unhealthy. And as I said, not everybody obviously goes through it. Some people have got brilliant parents, some people have got good enough parents that get them through. And then you've got the, the other element, whether it was, um, there's substance abuse or there's depression or there's something else going on, you know, a parent is high up on that narcissistic And, and you see that behavior as normal behavior.

Yeah, yeah.

And that is how people— it's not how they get into it, but that's how they put up with this. They get trauma bonded into, um, through the cycle of abuse, which is idealization, devaluation, and discard. And, and the abuser will take you through. So they, they appear and they ask so many questions and they're so interested in you, but really what they're doing is it's like a project manager collecting all the information that they need on this project.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and then they will focus on that, and they wear the mask that they believe that you're looking for, the person you're looking for. And then they introduce a bit of devaluation and a bit of discard, and you're thinking, hang on a minute. And then they'll come back with the idealization, this love bombing that goes on, and you're constantly trying to get to this point where you're back in that love bombing, you're back on the pedestal where they've placed you as this most important person, and they'll tell you things like you're— they're your soulmate and you're always meant to be together and you're the only person that ever understands them. And, and then they treat you in this, uh, in this way of devaluation, and then they whip you back around, and you're just getting trauma bonded and traumatized in this place. But it doesn't feel— if the red flags are there, but it doesn't necessarily feel for everybody unfamiliar, because in some level they might've experienced that, whether it was in their immediate family or maybe at school, or, you know, there is something that they've experienced that sort of fits in. Um, and they then get bonded into it rather than being able to step out and say, oh no, no, no, this is really unhealthy.

Mm-hmm.

You get, you get stuck in there. And that's where it's coming out of the relationship when the final discard, because there's always discards going on, It's the final discard. So it's whether the person has spotted the abuse in the relationship and they've taken themselves out of it, or the abuser has gone through that process of final discard. And that is where you just, you know, there's so much confusion going on. Your brain is trying to process everything that happened and partly waiting for them to come back because they've always come back before. So you get sort of stuck.

Yeah, yeah. I guess that's the thing about what you said in childhood, just to explain that bit about the theta waves. Is your brainwaves as a child, they're much slower, aren't they? So yeah, it's like being under hypnosis earlier. It's much easier for you to absorb information, and that thing goes in very, very deeply at that age. And then what you're saying then is that you learn to relate to your caregivers or whatever's going on in your life as a child. So therefore, when you get older, this form of abuse This bonding that you get to something toxic or unhealthy and abusive is your normal. So therefore, as an adult, when someone else comes into your life as— and you start having adult relationships, they're able to pick up on that level of energy that you're putting out.

Yeah, I think they are. They ask so many questions and they at that point understand what your wounds are.

They understand, you know, what happened to you in childhood.

Obviously they play this big thing that they had this horrific childhood. They are able, and I don't know whether it's a beacon, you know, because people talk. I've got a group and, uh, you know, people say it's like they've read a book. It's like they, there's, they've got different personalities, they have different ways and techniques of doing things. It all goes along the same route. This cycle is very similar. Uh, well, it is the same for everybody. It's just On different levels. They tune into where your wounds are. They understand, you know, and then they use it against you to hurt you. Um, yeah, it's a painful experience, a very painful experience.

And that, that is just to meet the need that they've got in order to kind of, kind of have that relationship for themselves, right?

I mean, I've got so many different theories on this. I mean, I see them as empty and I see them or describe them or have described them as like, vampires sucking the lifeblood out of somebody else, because that's how you feel at the end.

Mm-hmm.

You know, if you haven't got out and they've gone— you've gone through that final discard, it's like they've sucked literally everything out of you. I describe it in so many different areas. So emotionally and mentally, they've sucked the life, you know, lifeblood out of you. Physically, um, spiritually. So that's all your beliefs, everything that you believed Growing up, or they've taken everything and they've twisted it, and now you don't know. And usually financially as well, that's usually a really big one.

Yeah, yeah, that was interesting. I worked with a lady a little while ago, um, and she was with this guy for 7 years, and he never worked a day that they were together. Um, and she paid for him to go— well, she paid for him basically to do everything. She even paid for him to go on holiday with his friends. And she never went on holiday with him at all. Again, you could just say he's— he got into her mind. Like you said, he played that game at the start. He was asking a lot of questions. He was figuring out her fragility and her needs. And then he played her for a long time. And actually, he was the one that then left her at the end when he— when there was nothing else for him to take.

Exactly. There's nothing else for them financially or in any other area. So, and then somebody else new, either it's because you've, you've been sucked dry of everything and you can't give them the attention that they, they crave. So you've got nothing left, you've got nothing for you, you've got, definitely got nothing for them. So they usually are tempted by someone who's either got more money or can provide better attention or, um, you know, all sorts of different things, and off they trot. So yeah, but they do, if they spot, it's like they can sniff, like sniffer dogs, they can sniff out if you're starting to repair some of the damage and they're back in, they sneak back in with an email, text message, you know, the hoovering comes out, you know, just to see what's going on. It might be that they're a little bit bored or, you know, the relationship isn't as fulfilling as they thought it was going to be, but although not as committed at that point, The other person isn't committing. They've got spare time, so they come in and just sort of play with you and your emotions. So I remember on the course that we did on the Saturday, I'd had no contact for I don't know how long it had been, maybe a week or or so, and I was feeling really good. And then arrived at the venue on the Saturday morning, and I quickly flicked through, and I saw an email, and it was like, "Have you hacked into my Facebook? Have you been trying to get?" And it just wiped me completely. You know, I was in. good space? And it's like, no, I haven't, you know, I just wouldn't do that, um, or I couldn't do that because I had tried at certain points when things weren't adding up. I just wanted to look what I wasn't seeing on Facebook, and it, you know, realized that I was being blocked off certain things that were happening.

Right.

So, um, yeah, they're very, they're very clever, very manipulative, um, and they play with people, and it's a great game for them, you know. That's what they want. They just want to see how powerful they are.

And the kind of that stuff, you— and I think it's interesting you talk about this stuff comes— so when we're attracted to abusive relationships, or whatever level of abuse that might be, it generally comes from the, the experiences that we have when we, when we're growing up, maybe a bit of trauma later on in life. But they're also coming from a trauma, aren't they? They're coming from their own trauma.

Yeah.

I think that's an important thing for us to recognize. Damaged within themselves. And yeah, damage seems to gel quite well as a couple, doesn't it?

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's like a mirroring of, you know, because usually you've got, um, either like an empath stroke codependent personality versus the narcissistic, um, sociopathic, psychopathic. And we're all on that spectrum, all of us.

We're all on that spectrum.

Um, majority of us are very low at the bottom. It's, you know, it's only a small percentage that are right around the top. And even then, I think the, the figures that are quoted, I think it's like 1% of the pers— uh, of the population. Those figures date back to something like the 1950s when it was looked at. And the other thing I ask people to think about is actually These people can't take responsibility, so they won't go and get a diagnosis. They wouldn't go and get help. It's all your fault. But yeah, you've got the matching, or they match. They say they've got a similar wound. They're definitely wounded, and you're definitely wounded. That they say they've got, and they understand, and this is why you're supposed to be together, and you're soulmates. And when you buy into that, you know, this person actually sees me and acknowledges me. And it might be the first time you've been seen on that level ever. They have, they're supposed to be matching wounds. I'm not quite sure how, but they are.

I would say, yeah, I think matching is an unhealthy way of putting it.

Clarity, maybe, you know, connection there, isn't there?

Definitely. Both, you're feeding off of each other's energy and there is a subconscious attraction to each other.

Yeah. And the, also the abused, because they claim they're the victim. They claim they're the victim, real victim in all of this. will have probably been in a pleasing relationship where they are used to running around and protecting themselves. You know, they might be used to walking on eggshells with a parent or caregiver. So there's that element there as well. Where I think we have to be really careful in these particular relationships is, yes, they are wounded, and not get caught up in the fact that you feel sorry for them, because that's If you've been in that relationship, that's really what you— how you got sucked in is trying to help them, trying to heal them. They are attractive. Empaths, the natural healer, is very attracted to these people, um, because they believe that they can help them, um, and not from an ego place at all. It's— they really see that wounded inner child and they, and they want to heal, you know, want to help them. Them. So, but it's just knowing that, that point that yes, they are, but that's their responsibility to go and get and heal themselves. It isn't anybody else's responsibility because acknowledging that they are damaged doesn't excuse the behavior. I've been caught so many times with this myself. I know that this happened and I know, and trying to, you know, I do understand why it happened. It doesn't excuse Excuse what, what the, the behavior.

That's a massively important point to make, isn't it? That we know that, again, if we are in an unhealthy or toxic kind of relationship, we know there's two tango here. We know that there's, there's, like you said, wounds on both sides. But it's really important that we don't try to repair the wounds of somebody else that's not prepared to take on that responsibility to repair themselves and are just using you in order to Fill their hole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To fill them up.

And, and it's like, it's like a void. It's— I don't think it's ever, ever going to be filled up. I think I saw a couple of brilliant, um, things, and I like, uh, I don't know, it wasn't a post, but it might be like a memo or something like that. And one of them was, um, I'm done— I can't remember now what it was. It was like, I'm— I've done fostering men. You know, and it was like, I've done healing them for them to then walk on into other relationships.

So I'm not necessarily sure that was an emotionally abusive relationship.

I'm done fostering men now. I'm really looking for someone who's done the work on themselves, which I thought was absolutely brilliant.

Definitely. That kind of made me giggle because that's what I used to call myself. I used to say— actually used to say— this is one of my relationship beliefs that I had, that My role was to make people feel better, to make women feel better about themselves. And then they would move on, which is generally what would happen. I would go out and date people that would have a lot of emotional issues. Yeah. When they were in a confident self, you know, built up their work, which I was providing for them. Yeah. They would then go off with somebody else.

Yeah. And I think that sums it up. I think that's the fostering, isn't it? She said, I'm done fostering men now, something like along those lines. And I thought, oh, that's absolutely brilliant. I'm looking for a man, you know, not a, not a man-child. So.

And I think that's the thing, isn't it, with, with especially the thing about narcissists. It's a word that's thrown around very, very sparingly, very, very popular at the moment to throw it around, isn't it? And it doesn't describe A lot of people. I think it's a, it's a buzzword, isn't it, at the moment? I think.

Yeah. And also, when you use the word narcissist, people see that grandiose, like, look at me, and, you know, and, and there are worse out there than that, you know. The ones that—

There's so many different types, aren't there?

Yeah. And the ones that you don't know are, um, you know, you think because they're quiet, but they can actually be more deadly than the, you know, the grandiose ones, because the grandiose ones are so obvious You know, of who they are. It's the really quiet ones. And then you've also got the ones that sort of balance between, you know, sort of flip between the two. You know, they're in certain situations, they're, hey, look at me, and then they're there, then they play the innocent child, or they're damaged, or whatever. They're quite dangerous as well. So—

I think everybody that's got a lot of narcissistic traits is a very dangerous relationship to be in. I actually read an article a few weeks ago about the COVID narcissist. I think that's what they call the silent ones. Yeah, there are so many things for us to be aware of as far as— and, you know, they might not necessarily be a narcissist, they're just on that nasty— like you said, there's a level that we're all on as far as where we've come from and how we, how we are within relationships. But it's those extreme kind of levels that we need.

Yeah, I describe it as, again, going back to the child thing, you know, as a child you have to have that narcissistic trait because you have to, it has to be all about you. That's your survival. And where we get to about, I think it's about 5 or 6. So, and even I should think 3 and 4 is quite a crucial age as well. We start to detach from the people around us. So we start to break away from those. We realize that there's a difference between me and one of my parents. I can see that there's a split. Whereas I I think, um, with narcissistic parents, they do not have that. They do not see, um, the— they, they do not see the, the break, that you are a separate person. So you are fuel. I mean, this is it, isn't it? It's you are fuel. You, uh, represent something to everybody. So it might be that you're really good at sport or academically or something. So they use you as a, as a trophy child, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Or you might, you might have another one that's really pretty or attractive or whatever. And that's another form of supply for them. So, um, yeah, and it's not understanding that how, how we're all individual people, we're all different and we have different needs. So, um, it's a really interesting— it's that having that break, um, you know, understanding that you're a different person to your immediate family, if that makes sense.

You recognize yourself as an individual.

Exactly.

Yeah.

As a separate, like you said, an entity from— and like you said, if you've got a narcissistic parent, your narcissistic parent won't allow you to make that break, will they?

No, that's, you know, and you know, it's, it's these— we understand at certain ages we can see the difference. You know, I think it's around about 14 that we can look at our environment and we can, you know, that we have been brought up in. And this is the condition between 0 to 7, 8 years old. and see the difference between, oh, you know, my friend Lucy down the road doesn't— their family don't do what we do.

Mm-hmm.

And you then start to identify. And it's that whether you're allowed to be mature, whether you're allowed to venture out on your own and, you know, emotionally mature, or whether you're held within this relationship with your parents. So yeah, it's a very interesting dynamic. So we all are on the scale. And as I said, as a baby, That is what we, we learn. We, we need to, as a survival coping mechanism. So we have to, you know, we, and then, but we, yes, as I said, we, we then start to understand our, you know, how other, that we are separate from other people if we're allowed to.

Yeah. So what is, um, as the work that you do now, is there something as a sort of a, I know this is a very sweeping piece of advice that you could offer, Because everybody is so individually attached to these relationships and have their own issues from their background that, um, attract them towards these type of people and allow these kind of people into their lives. But is there something you could think of that would be a good bit of, uh, advice for somebody that finds themselves in these types of situations that they could implement immediately to help them in these situations?

Right, so if you're immediately in a relationship, though it's quite new and you haven't been completely trauma bonded into, into that, um, I would not give anyone more than one chance. You know, it was something I really struggled with for a long time, and I wouldn't— I would say no if somebody oversteps one of your really— if you— about the whole point of with narcissistic relationships is they love Crushing boundaries. They love to see how far they can push you, and if they overstep it once, if they overstep it two, I used to give people three chances. I've told you, okay, maybe you didn't get it. Maybe I wasn't fully explaining it to you. Maybe you didn't understand that. Third time, and I say, right, look, I'm you know this isn't quite. But with my last relationship, my marriage that broke down, I fell for the victim story, and actually I recognized some of the wounds that I'd grown up with. And I think that's where it was very difficult for me. But I would say, if you see a red flag, if something doesn't feel right, then you say no, and I'm— that's it. Or if they beg you, one more chance if you cannot say no, and then you do it. Because once you start breaking your boundaries, once you start saying, well, this doesn't feel right, or, you know, I don't agree with that sort of you know, that behavior, you forget, you know, that they'll push it a little way. No, well, it wasn't really. And they're very good— well, some of them are very good at using other people's behavior. So they'll find people around you and say, well, look, this person's doing it. And they're very good at justifying their behavior.

Yeah.

That would be if you're in a relationship, you know, it's— and it's quite new and you can get out relatively quickly and unscathed. Um, most people don't understand until they've come out the abuse that took place. It's very, very hard, or you might dip in and out. You know it's not right. And one of my favorite analogies is the slot machine. And when you're in that relationship, you've invested so much.

Right.

You've invested so much time and energy, and you've given up so much. And it's like, you, you, the next pull's gonna be the, you know, the, the jackpot win. You're promised so much. And, and, and it never happens. It's never going to be there, but people hang on. And it's knowing when to quit. It's also a bit like having a car that gets economically to the point where I've spent quite a lot of money getting this repaired. I keep it for another year, or shall I sell it now and get something new? And it's making that decision, like that money pit decision. And it's But it is very hard. It won't be until people are out of the relationship, or very closely out of the relationship, that they might start to notice and, and sort of think, oh God, you know, you know, they— and start to look what it is that is wrong. Mm-hmm. And, you know, a lot of people in the group, the group that I run, come in and say, you know, I've started to realize, I've started to see, I'm in a 30-year, 22-year, 27-year Your relationship.

What advice do you give to the people that have been in these relationships for that amount of time?

Okay, the first thing is no contact if you can, no contact whatsoever. And then greet my two— your two best friends, because you will now realize that when you turn around, nobody understands you. Some people are actually grieving themselves because they bought into the relationship. They were, you know, had some form, you know, um, they, they bought into this relationship as well and lived it from the outside. Um, but your 2 very best friends now are grounding and breathing.

Mm-hmm.

And they would be my thing, my, my 2 go-to. That's exactly all you need to do at this point while you calm everything down. A lot of people come out with complex post-traumatic stress disorder, and this, the conflict of the, um, Cognitive dissonance. So breathing and grounding, and it helps you come into your body, and it helps you then rationalize your thought process. And then you can go, okay, yeah, actually they did this and they did that and they did that, whereas you're fighting against another part of your brain that's going, but they were so nice and they looked after me and they—

And while they're— if they're in this relationship rather than they're actually coming away from that, if they're actually in this now, it's really important you're saying that they reflect on the space that they're in and to acknowledge that these signs and acknowledge that these things are going on.

And protect themselves and also look for an escape route. Usually the— on the financial coercion side, um, so coercive control is really big in the UK, um, and it's now a law. It's been the law for 6 years now, but financial coercion is a part of that. And financial coercion is, is forcing somebody, very much like you said, your client, would run out, you know, got to the point where she had nothing left. It's about, uh, how they abuse people and put them in that financial position that they're paying for everything and they literally have nothing to— they might not be able to feed themselves or clothe themselves or, um, you know, or they're responsible in a financial way.

No financial ability to kind of look after themselves in every way, shape, or form.

Or escape. Another one is that they wouldn't be financially able to escape. So it would be about looking at at what they could do to get out of that relationship. And you have to be ready to come out. Um, on average, 7 to 8 times people go back. I mean, that is on average. Somebody will walk out maybe first time, another person might be 15 times they've tried to break free. On average, it's 7 to 8 times, you know, that they'll be dragged in through this hoovering. And it also feels so much safer. It's so bizarre, but feels so much safer in that relationship than it does out of the relationship because your whole world was consumed by them.

Yeah, yeah, there's an environment there where you've just got so familiar with it that anything that feels away— again, because again we talk about trauma bonding. If you want to know a bit more about trauma bonding, go back to my episode Why People Find It Difficult to Walk Away from Relationships, where there's a, there's an explanation of trauma bonding in there if you want to know a bit more about it. But there is that Isn't it? It's that space that they've— again, I don't want to give them all the responsibility for it. It's a space that we create as well. I remember going through this myself, and it was definitely a need within me that allowed me to be in that space in the first place, and why I got so enmeshed in that relationship and those relationships. Um, but it is, is that kind of space that's created, it's So, so safe and secure, and you wouldn't know what to do without it. Yeah, that's a really powerful place that we can get stuck. Yeah, as you were saying, it's really important to take that kind of step back and reflect and look out for everything that you're not comfortable with. Yeah, look out for all these signs that you've discussed today to be able to trust your gut a little bit more, how you feel.

Because that is the one thing that— I mean, there's so many things that they're, you know, they do, but the gut is the one thing that they get you to turn off. And it, it's that gaslighting, they're challenging everything. So you say, oh, this doesn't feel— I remember so many times saying, this doesn't feel right, there's something going on and it doesn't feel right. I'm being told that it wasn't, no, it wasn't, my gut was off, it wasn't, it was, everything was fine and it was me imagining, I've got an over— you know. Or the, um, the one that I heard a lot was, um, that I'd been in a relationship before that had treated me that way, and I was using that as an ex— you know, I was getting confused. And then you start to question, am I right?

Yeah.

Or maybe my gut is overreacting. Maybe I do have trust issues. That was it. Trust issues was the thing. I had trust issues. And I— and then I, in the moments of clarity, it's why it's so important to breathe and ground. I could think back to actually, no, This isn't. And when I came out of the relationship, it was like, hang on a minute, this was— this happened at the beginning of the relationship. That's what my gut was telling me. You've been here and it doesn't feel right. The one thing that you can't— because it's so difficult when you're in the relationship, but you can do things like, um, obviously look at your escape route, but you can find places, safe places within your home. So whether it's you go and lock yourself in the toilet and you do some grounding, some grounding and breathing, Right. You can do the Superman— have you done the Amy Cuddy Superman pose, where you literally change the physiology within your body by standing? And you can do this in a toilet cubicle, and, you know, standing in that Superman pose, and it literally changes your physiology. So you can then— and I've wrote— I'm writing about this at the moment, and it's about a situation where I was called bipolar. And what I was doing was I was using that technique and I was calming myself down and I was breathing through it. And because I wasn't reacting in the way that it was expected, I was supposed to be breaking down. And I think I was getting upset, but I was trying to change my energy really quickly and getting into a place. I was called bipolar. And then it was— I mean, this is 6 years ago. Yeah. Um, and I know, like, they were so used to you probably going into that Small.

I mean, it's interesting what you say about the Superman pose. The reason that we talk about these types of things and changing your state is because by opening up your body, it's the complete opposite to generally what we do when we feel like we're being put on, isn't it? We go into this little ball, we curl up. Yeah. Um, whereas when we go into these things like the Superman pose, it opens your body out and it changes your entire physiology, doesn't it?

It is. Yeah, it's the chemistry. We all are a bunch of chemicals, you know. driven by hormones and stress, you know, the situations that we're in, the stress levels. So yeah, you can literally change your physiology just by doing that one thing. So if you're in that situation and you're living, still living with them, you can disappear to the bathroom. We all need to go to the bathroom and just stand there and do that, you know. But yeah, it just reminded me writing about it of this bipolar accusation, and it took me 6 years to Actually, even over the 6 years, I've gone, oh my God, maybe I have got bipolar. You do.

Yeah, it's amazing how you're led to question yourself.

I know.

And then it's like, don't be ridiculous, that's gaslighting. But it was, it was one of those ones that maybe was down a lower down thing that needed healing. But once I acknowledged that, and it was, oh God, of course it's gaslighting. Yeah.

So absolutely amazing. So much, so much stuff. I mean, we could talk for hours on this. And that's why you've written all the books. There's always so much, so much to say. It's been great having you. If you could just tell the listeners how they can get in touch with you if they want to find out a bit more about what you do.

Yeah, so my website is thedivorcesanctuary.com. It's about emotional divorce as well, if you, you know, equally physical and emotional, but it's about emotionally divorcing so that you can get the physical divorce that you you know, you should be able to get on your terms. I do a lot of deep healing with getting right down to the roots. Like I said, with the verruca, it's back to the original wound. You can find all those, you know, I either do a program or you can work with me on an individual basis, one-off therapy. My book, you can buy from the website as well.

Okay.

There's some free resources. I've got a self-care workbook on there and Turn Broken Broken into Your Superpower. And that's working with those 5 elements of finances and emotional and physical and spiritual energies. And I run a Facebook group, which hopefully will be in the link below, because if you don't know, it is called The Divorce Sanctuary. I think the tagline is something like emotionally divorce first. It is for helping women who've been through that relationship. Majority of them in there are going through divorce. I've even got quite a chunk of people are coming in at the moment that have Divorced over the last couple of years or last few months, and they're really struggling. So it's about support. And then there's my YouTube channel, which is the Emotional Abuse Sanctuary, and there's nearly 300 videos on there, and they— various different things about emotional abuse and meditations on there as well, which I think is really important. It's that grounding and breathing.

Mm-hmm.

So, so important.

Yeah, definitely. Doug, amazing resource there. Don't worry about writing this all down. It's going to be in the show notes. So if you want to get in touch with Elizabeth, please do this. There's an abundance of things that she's offering that can help you. If any of the things that we've talked about today resonate, if you find yourself in this situation, please do know that you can do something about it. It's not a helpless situation. And Elizabeth can help you to understand exactly what you can do.

Yeah, and if I just sum that up with my marriage broke down and I had nothing, literally lost the house within months, and my cars broke down, and I was literally— I had absolutely nothing. I had £71, I think, in savings, and I've managed to turn the whole thing around. It's about working inside out.

Yeah.

You can do it. You've just got to be You've got to want to do it.

Right. And on that note, I'm going to leave the show today. Thanks again, Elizabeth, for your time. Thanks for being a marvelous guest, all the information you've given, and for a wonderful conversation.

Thank you. Thank you so much, John.