Episode 113: The Economics and Ethos of Market Gardening with Jean-Martin Fortier

Hi friends, this is John. Welcome back to the Regenerative Agriculture podcast where we have all kinds of fun conversations related to growing healthy food and regenerating our soil and growing healthy food for people. I've really been looking forward to this discussion. I have with me today Jean Martin Fortier, who is a name that I'm sure many of you will recognize and be very familiar with because of his pioneering work in the market gardening space in Quebec. And he has many people who pay close attention to the innovations that are coming from their farming operations and are inspired by his work. So, Jean Martin, thank you for being here and for being willing to share all of your wisdom. You've shared information with so many people around the world that I know has inspired a lot of people. For our listeners who are not familiar with your story, can you tell us a little bit about your background and your journey, the scope of the work that you're doing today?

Yeah, sure can. And if it's easy, you can call me JM John. A lot of folks call me that. It just goes by that. And I'm, I'm, I resonate with it. But my story, I started farming, I was in my early 20s, I'm now 46. And so it's been more than 20 years of farming and I've, you know, I've been farming all these years with my wife. We farm La Girlinette, which is our home farm. People know this farm mostly because of my book, the Market Gardener. It's, you know, pretty well known book, it's translated now in 10 languages and it's been popular ever since. I've really published it in, in the early, it was like 20, 2012 when it came out in English. But before that I had been farming my two acre farm, acre and a half micro farm for 12 years with my wife. And I would say we were farming it really successfully, making a good living, you know, feeding more than 300 families through our CSA, through our farmers market. And some of the highlights of our farm is that besides being small, we, we don't have a tractor. We were relying and still are today, mostly on hand tools, really following in the work of Elliot Coleman and just putting new pieces into the puzzle of how to optimize production, how to make some of the workflows more efficient on the farm, how to grow in greenhouses and in the end just grow more produce but on not a bigger piece of land and getting a good bottom line because of that. And that was all really well discussed in my book and that's really, how you know, people know me in the farming space.

Thank you. You know, I'm intrigued by some of the conversations that I hear today. We have many, we have many farmers who own large pieces of land. And there's this common sentiment expressed that there isn't room for the next generation on the farm to join the farm because there isn't enough economic opportunity. And this is a mindset that I seek to understand intellectually, but I don't understand it in my heart. I was raised by parents who were very innovative, very pioneering. We were constantly trying new things, open to new ideas. And the idea of being stuck in a certain system is something that I have a hard time imagining. And I've had conversations with young farmers. There's this one story of a dairy farmer who was milking 3,000 cows and was having a difficult time making ends meet. And his wife became very frustrated with the lack of future for their dairy. And so she went off on her own, did their own thing on the side. She had a 40 cow organic certified dairy. And in the second year, she was making significantly more profit than her husband was with the 3000 cow dairy. And I have dozens of stories like that where young people will go off and they'll work on an acre or two or three, and they are soon more profitable and doing more things that cannot be imagined by people who are kind of trapped by the system that they're in. And so my question for you is, for people who perhaps lack the context of market gardening, what does the opportunity look like? What is a vision of what is possible?

Yeah, that's a really good setup with that story of the farm, the cow farm, because in market gardening you can make $100,000 per acre, $150,000 of sales per acres. And so if you're at 1.5 or if you're at 2 acres, you can range up to 300,000 of vegetable produced on those 2 acres. And the economics of market gardening is that for this to be possible, there's definitely a lot to say about the, the farming system. The way the crop is laid out, it's very optimized. We use what's called the bio intensive methods of production, where, you know, the crops are really closely seeded or transplanted so that they occupy maximum space, foot yield. But we also do a lot of succession planting. So one crop is harvested, you know, the same day it's transplanted into another crop, that one will be harvested, it's direct seeded into another crop. And so we're double, triple, going up to Five crops per year per bed in these closely densely seeded or transplanted crops. And so that's how we, we maximize space and time. And one of the key factors for this is to not have a tractor, the tractor for it to cultivate the fields and just takes a lot of space to turn at the end of a head, the hedgerow, just like all of that takes space. And so the market Gardener is like 2 acre or less, he's non mechanized or he has a walk behind tractor, two wheel tractor, that's what we use. We don't plow disc hill shaped soil. We use permanent bed systems. And once the beds are made, we shallowly cultivate them and then we plant into that. But to come back to the initial point, it's not only that you can make 150k for acres, is that the bottom line can be up to 40 to 50% profit margin on that. So someone like on my farm where we make 200, 300 per, you know, 300k per year and that's, you know, almost 120 in net sales and net profit at the end. It's a lot. And because we've kept the initial startup cost to a minimum, we were not fully mechanized, we don't have a big payroll and we're direct selling everything, which is really the key here. We're direct selling everything, premium price. And yeah, that's really the economics of market gardening.

I could quickly develop a list of 100 farmers farming a thousand acres who don't make 120,000 in income a year.

Yeah. And then, you know, when I, when I started to advocate for that back in the early, you know, 20 years ago or 15 years ago, you know, people would say I'm crazy or they would say that I'm hiding something or I teach an online course and then they would mix projects and say that's how you make your money. But the reality is that we've been doing this for 20 years and now I teach an online master class where I teach people how to do this. And there's, you know, more than 5,000 growers around the world that are using these methods and that they're getting success also. So it's a proven model, it works. And one of the important topic about this is that, and I've always thought that is it allows young people to get into farming.

That's a key point because the need for capital investment is a fraction, a tiny fraction of what would be required to get into farming, as many people commonly think about farming.

Yeah. And you know, I Don't know if you've heard Joel Salatin say this, but for me it resonates. Very true. But if we want to get new people into farming or if old people want to retire from their farm, we need new people coming in and changing the models and creating systems where it's more accessible, more affordable is a great way to get there.

As you've worked with 5,000 farmers to help them get started and that they've gone through your masterclass, what are the investment costs and what is the success rate of the people who get started? How many of them are still going in five years?

Yeah, that's a great question. And to be frank, I haven't measured the success rate of everyone. And it's probably like in any other business. You know, we say one out of five will make it to year five. I'm hopeful that it's more than that because I know a lot of folks that over the years I've been connected to. But, you know, our network with the Market Gardener Institute is pretty big. It's worldwide, it's in 90 countries. But, you know, farming like we do is not different than any other trade. Like, we need to do marketing, we need to do accounting, we need to do the growing. Obviously we need to learn how to grow. And, and that's where I come in and help with my teachings. But it's never easy, so it doesn't solve all the problems. But this way of farming definitely allows to spend less, to get into farming. You can expect to build a clientele, you can expect to develop at a regular kind of growth range. And then a lot of people at year four or five, they decide to either, you know, have side projects or grow their farms, but, you know, they've made it. And so I'm kind of not answering, but it's, it's kind of a, not a, it's not black or white, you know, it's kind of gray.

Yeah. So I have less familiarity with the market gardening domain and those growers than I do with the large scale growers. But I would imagine that there are, there's a certain subset of growers who don't achieve the economic outcomes that you're describing for any number of reasons, and that's the question that I want to ask you is what are the common pitfalls? Because there are growers across the spectrum who I'm sure are producing much less revenue than 150,000 per acre. And what are the pitfalls that prevent them from being successful?

Well, okay, I'll answer that one of the very defining thing from one farm to the other is the price for the vegetables. So if you're selling in upstate New York and you're going into New York City, it's a very different conversation than if you're in a small town in Pennsylvania where, you know, it's like the prices won't be the same. So the price for the items is very important. So that's, that's something to say. Somebody can work just as hard on one farm and make, you know, a third less because the price list isn't the same. But once that's kind of said and done, some of the most common mistakes that I've seen, there's a lot of mistakes, first of all, and, and it's not because they're people are wrongly intentioned. It's just some, sometimes they just, they don't know better because what, what has happened is like market gardening is growing 40 to different crops simultaneously that you're direct selling every week to two or three markets. So people need to be highly structured and organized. And it's not easy to grow all these vegetables at once. But the pitfall, number one, is always growing too much land. And one of the reasons why people go there is because they have the land and they want to mechanize and they want to have a tractor or two or three. And then that just brings them into a system where you're cultivating five acres and you're not growing more vegetables than what I would be on one acre. But, you know, let's say you're putting an insect net over your vegetables. Putting an insect net over five acres is not the same as one acre. It's a lot more work, you need a lot more people. But in the end, you're covering the same amount of ground. And it's kind of like an example here, but it's the same for irrigation, it's the same for putting tunnels. It's the same for spreading out the farm and just, you know, factoring in the moving around on the farm, all the downtime that that creates. So there's a lot to say about just kind of keeping it tight and optimizing. And the second pitfall that I see often is that people, they improvise, they want to figure it out on their own. They're not following in the footsteps of people that have been doing it for a very long time. And they're not mimicking exactly what these folks are doing there. And I was guilty of that when I started. I was lucky because I found Elliot Coleman Pretty fast now in my path. But people, they go, and then they experiment, and then they try this and that. They go on YouTube, they pick and choose from different systems, from different growers, and in the end, they're just not. They're just not growing crops successfully across the board all the time. And so that's another. That's another thing. And then marketing, obviously, there's a lot to say about that.

How necessary is it to be close to a large population center? What is a regional geographic proximity that is required to be successful with this model?

Yeah, I would say that it is. Market gardening was developed around Paris in the 1800s, and, you know, there was tens of thousands of microfarms that were feeding a city of 3 million. And that, you know, that the story of that is that these micro farms, they would bring the vegetables to the, the. The markets in Paris and they would bring back the manure from the staples, and that's how they would clear the manure, a big part of it. And so they would. They would use a lot of manure, and they would grow up to eight crops per year per bed. In a climate that's kind of the same as in, you know, just Pennsylvania, to say it's like, it's pretty much the same climate, but it was close to a city. And so you would sell everything to people that was. And I think that's still true today. If you're more than two hours from a hub, it becomes really tricky because in the countryside, in rural areas, people have their gardens and people aren't that excited about fresh vegetables. They are, but not as much as people in the city that are kind of lacking for, you know, they're nutrient deficient. So they're kind of looking for ways to feed themselves on freshness. And so I think the city aspect of it is quite important, actually.

When, as you've worked with hundreds or now thousands of farmers, you know, often we look back on our life's journey and the work that we're doing. And in retrospect, there are often a few defining moments, instances that really stand out in our memory that really produced a shift in our work. What were some of those moments for you? What are some of the highlights that really stand out in your memory?

There's three that I can really look back upon. First one is when I got introduced to farming. I was really new to it. My parents didn't grow up on a farm. My parents weren't hippies. You know, we weren't going to farmers market. You know, I. Heck, organic farming Wasn't even a word in my vocabulary. So when I started farming, it was. I was in New Mexico, around Santa Fe, a really progressive town. And the farming community there was amazing. It's like a lot of small farms, big farmers market, and a lot of hype around, eating in season, eating locally. And that was my first kind of contact with farming was like, it was happening. It was cool. And, you know, I would do the cash box at the farmer's market for the farmer, and I could see that he was making a lot of. A lot of money in one morning. And I was like, he's making money too. So he was super positive for me. And we stayed there for almost two years, and we made so many friends and visited so many farms. And so my first impression in farming was a very positive one, and I think it's been with me ever since. And when we came back to where we live now and we've. We've been farming for 20 years, just that buzz and that hopefulness wasn't there. It wasn't present. But we had seen it, so we brought it. And now where we live is one of the most exciting place, at least in Quebec, I would say in the Northeast, there's like so many farms, organic farms, farmers markets, farm to tables. It's like, it's. It's happening. So that's. That would be number one. But, you know, right around the corner where my book came out, I started to be invited. So I toured a lot. I went across the U.S. i did a. I did a U.S. tour. I went into 30 different states to show my model, explain, give tips. These are. These were like, you know, these were a. This was a big mission for me. And after two years of doing this, my mentor, Elliot Coleman, introduced me to another project here in Quebec, and he asked me to take over something that he had started. And so I started another farm, you know, 80 acres where I now train young market gardeners. And that farm is a holistic farm. It has animals, it has, you know, beef, it has cattle, it has chickens, it has culinary lab. It's a big, big farm funded by a very wealthy businessman. But I run and operate a school there. And so that's also something that changed in my last, you know, I would say 20 years.

Given the. The experience that you have with the tour and with running the school, the exposure that you have internationally. We all have our own unique perspectives. And I think what is true of many pioneers in this space is that they develop a perspective that is perhaps very different from the mainstream. So what perspectives have you developed or how are your points of view on agriculture very different from the way other people think about farming and food production?

Yeah, that's a really nice question. I'm very radical in my perspective on farming. For me, eating local foods is very. In the community of that. It's a very cultural act. I believe strongly in words like terroir, and I believe that a culture is very alive because of how it eats and how people relate through food. And so for me, vibrant communities with lots of small farms, lots of different produce, and lots of artisanal qualities to the food that we eat represents the way of life for me. Like, I would go as far as to say that's pretty much the only thing that really matters for me. And where I live, where it's very much defined by its farming attributes, the food that we eat, all these artisans and all these farmers that are there. And for me, that's. That's the focal point. And then the other thing that I've seen from my travels is that this kind of, like, center of food and farming is the same everywhere. Like, if I go to South America, that's what I'll find. If I go to Europe, that's what I'll find. If I go to Croatia, that's what I'll find. If I go to Kansas, California or Florida, the food aspect of the people that are in that mindset, not, not the conventional people, not, not. I'm not talking about Walgreens and Whole Foods even, but the local food scene, people are wired pretty much the same way.

You know, you're just. The way that you articulated that caused me to reflect a little bit. You know, in. In the American Midwest, if you're outside of a large city and you're in the rural areas across the Midwest, then many of those areas are called justifiably a good food desert. Like, if you don't. If you don't want to eat fast food or highly processed food, then in many cases the restaurant choices are very limited, the grocery choices are very limited, and it really is a good food desert. And when I think about that, then of course we have the same space occupied by this commodity production system that isn't, you could argue, isn't truly growing food, or at least not food that is directly consumed. And the way you articulated that, I've often. My historical thought pattern has been that, well, it's because we have this commodity food production and there are limited economics flowing to these rural communities, and because there are poor economics, then we have poor food Choices. But the way you describe that makes me wonder if it's the opposite. Is it because we've lost our cultural heritage and connection to good food that allows us to develop the mindset of feeling free to produce commodity crops? And in the case of many farmers that are growing corn, beans, and small grains, many of them may not even have a garden to grow their own food. So is it the lack of connection, cultural connection to food and valuing that, that has led to the agricultural production system? How do you see those intersect?

I like where this is going because this is interesting, and I'm not sure that there's a, you know, there's a. There's a right or wrong here, but the fact that these big farms aren't, you know, they're consolidated in many ways. And perhaps if we would rewind 50 years back or 40 years back, it'd be interesting to see how the social fabric was different. I think the farms were probably smaller. I think the towns were probably more happening because people needed things. And, you know, you didn't have Amazon to, you know, fly anything over that you needed. But I'm pretty sure that most people were also gardening. And so these elements of a community are very important, in my opinion, like having discussions around food, eating local foods. You know, the most advanced places, the most hipster like places, whatever, wherever it's. It's really interesting to live. People have a strong connection with the local food scene because there's something there. It's culture, you know, So I don't. I don't have the answer, but it's definitely an interesting question to ask.

Well, we all recognize, even in the Midwest, there are parts like, particularly a bit further south. You think about Texas barbecue culture, and not just Texas, but we have. There is a historical food culture that is associated with place throughout these various regions. But today it is becoming increasingly hidden or increasingly buried or not publicly accessible. I'm not sure quite how to articulate what it is that I'm trying to get at, but it's. It's disappearing underneath this cloud of fast commodity food.

I'd like to spend more time in the Midwest, but from what I'm understanding, In the next 20 years, it's going to be the next place where all the young kids go, because.

Why do you think that? I'm curious. Please explain.

You know, places. California, Too expensive. The tech industry has taken over everything. And it's like, if people want to afford to have land and grow and. And small towns, it's going to be in places where it's cheaper to live. And I, I just know I've met so many young farmers that are migrating to the Midwest and want to start farms there. I'm not talking when in the belt where the big fields are, but around these little pockets of towns. And I can imagine that it could be where it's at in the next 20 years.

So you've preempted one of the questions that I wanted to ask, and I'm still going to ask it because you might have a different perspective or answer. And that is where do you see unrealized potential or unrealized opportunity? What do you see that many other people might be missing?

Yeah, I think people need to think about new young people into farming as community development. Local economies like young farms, young farmers, new farms, they're a big part in the economic business of towns and small communities. And so how can we attract more young people in these places? And if you ask that question and you're like, okay, we realize that having more young people settling in our parts is important, then it's even possible for communities, for local government, small towns to find ways to provide land or provide whatever is necessary for young people to not have the barrier, the entry barrier, which is the cost of entry, like acquiring all the equipment you need, acquiring land if you need to buy it, so expensive. So figuring out ways to promote that. And then there's a lot of places where these reflections are happening. People are thinking about this and trying to come up with innovative way to attract new young people into farming in their area. And I think that's a very smart way to build community and local economy.

I've recently observed several scenarios where large scale landowners, large scale farmers, partnered with young people who wanted to get into farming. And rather than just leasing them the land, they actually, they partnered with them, they contributed land or product, perhaps water or other resources to help them get started and in essence became an investor in a fledgling farm through their contributions. Rather than what has been fascinating, I can think of half a dozen of these scenarios right off the top of my head of people that I personally know. And in every single instance, these large scale farmers who made these contributions ended up being financially rewarded significantly. Like they made more money on these small 2, 3, 5 acre land plots that they allocated to young people wanting to get started than they did growing their commodity crops. It's like this, there's actually a good argument to be made for doing that not once or twice or a few times on a farm, but you could actually be financially rewarded to do that. Dozens or hundreds of times on a farm. Assuming, of course, that the marketplace existed for that scale.

Yeah, it's interesting to look at it that way. It's land use. You know, it's. It's definitely easier to, if I can say that, to just kind of farm one or two crop on, you know, a thousand acres. But, you know, it's probably not the most profitable way to optimize the land. And we're, obviously, we're talking about keeping it into farmland and that. And I think that's really important, but, you know, having different models stacking on enterprises on the farm, getting people out onto farms, direct selling, you know, the local food movement, creating food hubs. Re engaging people of all colors, generations type to local foods. But that's, I think, is. Is the work that needs to be done. And frankly, it's. I see it as, you know, the civil movement of. Of the next 20 years. It's reconnecting people with land and food and. And culture. And I see it happening everywhere I go where, where there's a lot of small farms. And the local food movement is vibrant. These communities are exciting. And I don't know if it's vice versa, but, you know, they. They come together.

Vice versa in what way?

Well, is it because, you know, things are happening that people are starting farms, or is it because people are starting farms that things are happening? Like, I don't really know which comes first. Probably a mix of both.

Yeah, there's momentum that is established and it builds on itself and it grows just like a plant or anything else.

Yeah, because if you think about it, the bottom line is that people eat three times a day. And so there's always a market for selling food. The question is, you know, are people in that community ready to, you know, purchase local food? Are they willing to pay perhaps a bit more or go. Go out of their way? Or are they, you know, educated enough about not eating, you know, that the fresh food, like, if. If that's not in their diet, and it should be, because honestly, if. If not, it's a problem. But local meats, local eggs, local, you know, local game, local chicken, local vegetables, local chefs. It's just. That's just life.

I'd like to go back to speak a bit more perhaps about the. The practical applications and the execution. Obviously, you have the school, you have online classes where I would. That I would highly recommend our listeners, if they're interested, to check them out. We'll include some links in the show notes for all those. Of course, one of my areas of personal interest is thinking deeply and holistically about plant nutrition and attrition, management for disease susceptibility, insect susceptibility. Where we've made such tremendous progress on the commercial agricultural side, how is that being adopted in the market gardening space? Is nutrition management for disease and insect control considered as a viable tool? How is that space developing?

Yeah, well, two ways. You know, when I started organically, I don't think that many people were using insect nets. I was one of the first one to really adopt them, and I've showed so many people how to use them. But insect nets as physical barriers to a lot of the problems that we have with certain pests, I would say is, is not a. Is not an answer. Doesn't solve the problem, but it does in a way because it allows you to grow, you know, clean crops without insect damage. But paying attention to soil ecology is really where it's at. Most of the market gardeners, they're really in line with the no till or minimal tillage movement that's out there. A lot of them are paying attention to soil profile, soil ecology, not disturbing the layers, obviously, putting a lot of nice compost is always something that you'll hear. But, you know, paying attention to your soil structure and using tools that are not disturbing the soil ecology. No plows, no rotor tilling. Most, that's what I teach. And most of the farms that I know in my circle, you know, they use different methods to, to grow instead of just kind of plowing and disking and tilling. And so I would say that these are the two places. I don't know much, many growers that are measuring the density or the nutrient density in their crops. In my surroundings, there's not a market for that.

The market is for flavor and aroma, which is an analog to nutritional integrity. How do you see the future of market gardening evolving? There has been tremendous progress in the last decade, some of which you've contributed to. Great deal of what you've contributed to in terms of the tools that are available, the technologies that are available. How do you see that evolving over the coming decade or more?

I'm excited. I've seen it grow so much like it's you, you know, I think you're very kind to put these words on my work. I don't know if I. If that's really true. I've been part of the movement, but I've seen so many farms mushroom around everywhere, not just North America, but, you know, Europe and South America now. And to be honest, like, it's true that they won't all make it, but that's life. You know, it's like in anything else. But I'm encouraged by that. And I'm also encouraged by the fact that it's still an uphill battle. And now as I'm, you know, growing in age, if I can say that, you know, I'm, I'm more interested in understanding the food system, understanding the politics. I don't know if you know this, but you know, the organic standard in the U. S recently, two, three years ago allowed hydroponics to be certified organic. So these are subjects that for me are very important. And so mixing of being more politicized and just, just having better farming practices, better gear, and then with the Internet, now with, you know, online courses and all of that, it's, it's way easier than it was to, to learn how to be a good grower. You know, you can flatten that bell curve of, of learning, you know.

You know, when I think about your answer, it's a very common life trajectory that as we become older, we become statesmen, if you will, or senior statesmen, particularly later on in life. And I think it's important, it's important for us to engage in the political process because I'm reminded of this quote, I think it's originally attributed to Einstein but originated somewhere else. I'll paraphrase it a bit. The only thing required for bad people to be in charge is for good people to stand by and do nothing and for people with good intentions. So I think it's important for us to be engaged, to speak up. And I've been really encouraged by the amount of impact that a few voices can have in the right space. Perhaps not in all spaces, but collectively we could really make a significant impact. Coming back to the question that I had asked though, I'd like to ask that same question, but perhaps from a slightly different perspective, from the perspective of technology and innovations for market gardening. I grew up on a 25 acre fruit and vegetable farm that we ran with horses. And so it was plastic culture, cultivation, et cetera, larger scale production than what you are describing. But even in that space, in the two decades that I was involved there, there was such a rapid development of scale appropriate technology. We did not work as hard when we had 15 acres of vegetables as we did when we had three because we had the tools that were the right fit. And I see what I think looks like a similar development in the market garden space where we have so many tools and technologies available today that weren't available at decade ago. First of all, is that accurate? How have you seen it develop and how do you expect to see it continue to develop in the future?

Yeah, I really like where this is going. Appropriate technology for me is such, it's is the game changer actually. Having the right tools can really change the speed of an operation. And then the overall, not just the bottom line, but the overall, like you said, like the amount of work. If you can find tools that lessen the work, then it's, it's not just sometimes to do more, but it's perhaps to have time to do something else. Spend more time with your kids, you know, do other affairs, activities. But so, so I've been myself personally always on the lookout for these new tools that are coming out. New, new technologies. Software now is coming into play. Like I'm involved in a crop planning software. It's called Heirloom. People can look it up. But it's, it's really, really interesting how, you know, with just better planning and just clearer tools to help you plan and organize how your farm is laid out, you know, the impact that it has on your overall efficiency. And then there's the, the tools per se. I don't know if your listeners are familiar with something that's called a paper pot transplanter. They can look at that, but that's probably not. It's, you know, it's really clever the way this works. It's very simple. It's appropriate technology. It's analog. But man does that transplant fast. These are, these are transplants that are connected to a chain link of paper that is just unfolded while when you pull that, that planter and then just kind of. It plants super fast. And so for me, that's one clear example of how appropriate technology comes into play and solves, you know, a big problem because we're not mechanized. So it's not about getting that expensive transplanter. It's, that's. That won't happen. We need to look at tools that are inexpensive, that are clever and that save you time.

And this is now quasi mechanization. I mean, it is a mechanized tool that is human powered that dramatically speeds up processes. Today we live in a world where we now have cordless tools with battery packs that can do a long list of possible jobs. My siblings and I still joke. I grew up in an Amish community, of course, and we still joke that we also grow up in the era of power tools or of hand tools because we had the brace and the bit to drill a hole instead of instead of a cordless drill. And we actually, we used to use the brace and the bit to drill holes for maple sugaring instead of a cordless drill. You know, it was, yes, it is work, but it connects you to nature. Not not having gasoline engines, not having tractors, not having power. Even the cordless drill is not the same as having the brace and the bit and being in the woods and everything is perfectly silent. You hear the birds, you hear the wildlife. It's a remarkable experience.

I agree, I agree. And there's room for that because in the end, why are we doing this? We're doing this because, yes, we want to have a business that generates an income for our family, but it's also a way of life, you know, will be in the end. If these are like 6, 40, 50, 60 hours a week working, that's your life. And so, you know, I'm very found of Amish culture because I just think that it's. It's so intelligent to think about how do we want to live our life? And let's just plan around that instead of the other way around, you know?

Yeah, well, there are many imperfections within the Amish culture, that is for sure. But I think I, yeah, I've really come to appreciate the, the fan and the community orientation of that culture. But, you know, one of the things, when I think about a lack of mechanization, one of the things that is really fostered by market gardening is you have a much closer connection to the land and to the landscape. Like, there is something about working with your feet in the soil that cannot be replicated by driving a tractor. It just cannot. There is a level of stewardship that occurs or that is facilitated. I shouldn't say that occurs, but that is facilitated by this close connection to the land that I think it's very common, particularly in the organic and the agricultural community, for people to repeat the phrase. I forget if it's credited to Albert Howard or perhaps Masanaba Fuko. They say the most valuable fertilizer is the farmer's footsteps.

And there is this.

Idea that the farmer's footsteps can be facilitated by simply doing crop scouting. If you're scouting a hundred acre wheat field, just getting out of your truck and walking through the field. And that is true, that is important. But it's not the same as actually working in the field for hours at a time with your feet on the ground, all of a sudden, if you permit yourself, if you're in the right space, heart and mind space, you open yourself to all this additional information. That can come in. You can call it intuition or whatever you will, but all of a sudden your awareness is expanded. I don't know how else to describe.

It, I don't know how to say this, but you've really touched on the reason why I'm still interested in teaching this to others. Like, yes, strategies, yes. Methodology, yes. Tools, yes, this is that. But in the end, the reason why market gardening is, is great is because I've had a beautiful life at it. My wife also. And you're right, like, you know, opening your door in the morning and then walking your two acres. Like, I see the birds, I see the insects, I see also if there's a problem on the crop, I see it because I'm walking in that. It's like a 10 minute walk and 15 minute walk, 20 minute walk. And you have this acumen, this ecological acumen, where you're farming with your feet on the ground, your hands are in the ground, you're not listening to the hum of an engine, you're listening to the birds, you're seeing what's going on. And that's how you, I think you develop that botanical sensitivity that's really important to become a good grower. But nothing beats what you describe. It's like this is a lifestyle that is worth the efforts that goes into mastering the craft of being a good organic vegetable grower, in my opinion.

Yeah, One of the. My hobbies is beekeeping and I so enjoy beekeeping because it also puts you into that space very quickly, or at least it does for me. And if you want to be a really good beekeeper and really understand what nutrition sources they have at different times of the year, understanding where pollen is coming from, where nectar is coming from, it connects you to the landscape in a way that almost nothing else does. And that's another manifestation of this same idea. So I have a question I'd like to ask. I ask it occasionally, not always, but what is a topic or something that you would like to speak about more often but you perhaps don't as frequently as you would desire because you perceive that people are not ready to hear it.

If I think it would be what you just said, the spiritual aspect of farming, God's will at play, my own personal connection with not just the land, but with how I feel, because I'm doing this. And one of the thing that became very clear to me early on in my career, if you want to, is that I've always thought that in order for people to have a good life on small farms, they need to know their stuff. And so I've been teaching this. I've been, I've been teaching and my motivation was to help people with their game plan, with their understanding tools and techniques so that they can become better growers. But in the end, the only reason why I advocate that is because I, I'm hopeful that other people can have as good as a life as we have farming that small piece of land. And I feel sometimes not if I would be just talking about that. Like the fact that I'm listening to the birds, the fact that I've created a landscape for myself, you know, we, the farm wasn't there before we got there, so we built it all. It's not that I feel like an imposter, but I'm like, I don't want to sell a pipe dream either, you know, because that would be easy and other people do that too. So. But, but in the end, what's in my heart is like just my love for farm and my farm and my community, you know?

Yeah. I think the reality is that we, we need both, jm. We need both. I think, yes, there has to be the, the understanding and the recognition of the practical realities, but also, also to inspire people through difficult times. We need inspiration. We need a clear image in our mind that inspires us, a vision to work towards an ideal to strive for. And it is these conversations that are, in my personal experience, they don't often happen in groups. They happen in one on one conversations or in smaller group conversations rather than in larger groups. And I think it's, it's an important. There is a need in our time for us to have this conversation to inspire people, to give them a vision of what is possible in larger groups and to, to spread it out and for more people to be aware. Because there are many, there are many who desire to be in agriculture but don't see a clear pathway. And you are one of the few voices who, who can give them a clear pathway to get started. So thank you.

I'm enjoying this conversation. You're really, you're touching my heart so much. Thank you for saying this. Like it's. Yeah, even myself, I get caught up with myself, like. But in the end, like my, for me, my North Star is my wife. She's been 20 years on, on the same farm. Every year she renews with the cycles. She doesn't farm in the winter, she starts in the spring and she'll go all the way till December. And she's been doing it year in, year out, good years, bad years. Great people, not so great people coming to the farm. And she's just, you know, all the craziness that I've lived, all these adventures, all these, you know, she's just been a steady rock and I admire her so much. She's kind of my North Star in all of it.

That is beautiful. It is beautiful. And a privilege to be able to have a relationship like that with a life partner, one that I also enjoy. So I've really enjoyed our conversation. What is it that we haven't yet talked about that we should touch on? What's the question you wish I would have asked?

I don't want to steal your tonguer, but I, I hope you won't mind me saying this, but I'm also starting a podcast. Awesome. Yeah. And I'm inviting people like you that have a lot to share on their wisdom and in their work on promoting small scale farming. So that's something that is new now in my life. It's my second year that I'm not farming full time. Last two last year I wasn't and this year I'm not. And I'm spending time having conversations. I don't, I don't know how to say this, but I'm, I'm in deeply enjoying this.

Well, thank you.

I, I like conversations around this and I guess all these years of me farming full on, I was so drilled to be efficient and effective. Not having really the time to talk, but, but now I do and I, I, I appreciate it.

You know, when you speak of focusing on being efficient and effective and fast, it's so easy for us to embed that mentality deeply into our psyche and, and how we view ourselves and how we approach the world. When I was in my early to mid teens, somewhere in there, most of my family members really enjoyed reading. We read a lot. And at some point in there, the book Cheaper by the Dozen made its rounds to the family. And we had so much fun with that and with the follow up sequel. And one of the elements in the book, Cheaper by the Dozen, was the father of the family, who was apparently quite a character, was an efficiency engineer at large factories. And he brought this into his family as well, constantly trying to avoid wasted motion too. They had a family with a dozen children and it had better not take longer than 90 seconds to take a bath.

So.

We brought that idea and that approach to our vegetable production into the farming enterprise. And I still remember one of the innovations that my brother developed was he completely, completely reshaped our vegetable packing line where all of A sudden, if you, if you picked up a piece of fruit to grade it and sort it by hand, instead of having your, your hand travel four feet now it only had to travel 18 inches and you could use two hands for two different pieces of fruit. Fruit. It was innovations like that that completely changed the level of intensity of our work. But you know what happened then? I'm sure for very good reasons, but what happened is that as we became more efficient, we just grew larger, we scaled up. And with the benefit of hindsight being 20 20, there's a good argument to be made that perhaps we would have been wiser to do less rather than more. My mother used to repeat this saying frequently. She said, if you keep your nose to the grindstone, rough, and you keep it there just long enough of just three things will your world compose you, your work and your worn down nose.

This is a trap that far too.

Many of us fall into. And also it is also a trap because many of us are so driven by commerce and the need for financial success, partially also in the farming community, because many farming enterprises do not enjoy significant financial success because of the way that they're structured or because of patterns and habits, et cetera.

Yeah. I think that in your story, what if those gains in efficiency would have meant more reading time.

Exactly. More play time.

More play time. More. And, and I think that's, that's what I try to teach. But I fall into the trap myself of all that we've mentioned. So it's. I have the feeling that I'm talking with you, a very wise man and it's a very joyful, enlightens my heart to have this conversation with you, John. This is great.

Well, thank you. We all have our gifts to bring and we all have our pieces to contribute. What is your podcast going to be called?

The Market Gardeners Podcast.

The Market Gardeners Podcast. When is it releasing?

It's going to be released April 17th. And you know, people can go to my website, themarketgardener.com they can check it out there. The first few guests, they've really inspired me to think about farming in new ways. And I want to say more about it, but it's. There's a lot of people out there that are doing really amazing work. I'll just say that.

Yes, that's. I certainly find that to be the case with the conversations that I have. It is. We have many people that we can draw inspiration from.

Yeah, I agree.

I have so enjoyed this conversation. I'm delighted to hear that you have as well anytime. Is there anything that we've missed talking about?

No. Anytime. We perhaps should do this again. Perhaps we could have a chance to connect physically at one point. That'd be very nice. But yeah. This is a great podcast and I'm happy that it was invited.

I would love that. I look forward to more conversations in the future.

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