Episode 129: A Multi-Generational Journey in Regenerative Agriculture with Jay and Chris Brandt

Hi, friends, this is John. Welcome to the Regenerative Agriculture podcast. You know, sometimes there are people who have been the pioneers in a space for decades and they've paved the pathway and smoothed the roadway for the rest of us to follow. And frequently in a new space, in a new industry, those pioneers are never given the credit and the appreciation that it is really due until decades later. And today I'm delighted to have conversation with a father and son pair who were a part of creating that pioneering pathway and creating that foundation for the rest of us to follow in what we're today commonly is being called regenerative agriculture, but it's really biological ecological agriculture. And my guests for today are Jay Brandt and Chris Brandt from here in Ohio, who many of you may recognize the name and the legacy of Dave Brandt and the incredible work that he did for us all in this space. So, Jay and Chris, thank you very much for being here and for being willing to have a conversation to talk about your history and the things that you're excited about today. So I'd love to if you could tell us a bit about the pathway and the journey that you've been on and also the legacy, the early days of what it looked like to be going down this, this pathway of improving soil health. What has that been like?

Well, certainly, John, and thank you for having us here on your show. We greatly appreciate this opportunity to share our story and look forward to that. Of course, you know the story of my father, David, starting back in the 70s, working on no till and adopting that practice and you know, mainly due just because of the need for time to get work done, having a young family and several acres of farm to work on, as well as a cow calf operation and fair to finish swine operation. So we had a lot going on at the time and to conserve time, this new idea of no till seemed to work well for getting all those things done in a timely manner. So he was very fortunate at the time to have some good advisors on that that helped him identify the proper equipment and allow him that chance to develop those skills and understanding the equipment and things. So he, he had a small network of other folks in the Ohio area that were doing that, that he was able to interact with. And I think that's a theme that you're probably going to hear as we continue this growth is this ability to have a network of peers that are on a similar path. Right. So that you have that support structure in place. And that continued to be an important aspect of what he did as he started to work in areas of advocacy on that. He was often invited, because of that early adopter experience, to relate in farm field days or conferences how he was using these techniques in the operation. Whether it was equipment setup or crop rotation planning. It became more and more focused on the COVID crops aspect of it. The use of hairy vetch or winter peas or crimson clover. Initially as a single species, right? Because that was typically how you started out with looking at one one thing. And it took a really long time because, you know, the single species and the ease of management of a single species was really the focus. There was some growth in that. As his influence expanded and got more into the Great Plains region, where you had more of adoption on the grazing aspect and the multi species concept for forages. And so he was able to look at that and how to incorporate that. The development of the tillage radish was one of those things where that, in combination with winter peas, was kind of like our entry level drug into the multi species cover crop, Right. So we went to 15 row spacing on soybeans. And that allowed, with the precision type meter on the white planter to do alternate rows of peas and radish and probably rated the most photographed white planter ever to exist on that through the work with extension and things of that nature. So it was really that entryway. And then as he then started to work into some more speaking engagements in the early 2000s and expanded his exposure with Ray Archuleta and Gabe Brown and had that network then of those folks that were early adopters and advocates on that side, and challenged him to go beyond the peas and radish and things of that nature, that we started to look at multi species cover crops and the fortunate to have some SARE funding to look specifically at different things that really developed a lot of the framework, along with the alignment with actually the Ohio State University providing a lot of testing and support on the work that we were doing that got us to where we are today.

When you think back to the history of that gradual progression, first adopting no till then single species cover crops, and then interplanting with COVID crops and multi species and so forth, Are there any inflection points where when you started making certain changes or doing things differently, there was a. A rapid jump in improvement and maybe kind of the reverse of that, of that question is, had you noticed at different points that with the practices you were using up to that point, that you had reached a threshold where things seem to kind of plateau?

I would say that we did in the peas and radish situation. It obviously made a very nice seed bed for corn in that rotation after small grains. But we did again because of we have some persistent weed pressure with some perennial or annual, the annual broadleaf weeds specifically. And because we didn't have a lot of residue cover obviously we had some suppression of weeds. But we were able struggling on some different aspects. And that seems to change seasonally. We rotate through whether it's waterhemp or Mars tail or something like that kind of seasonally. It's not been a persistent one or the other. But that and what really gave a change in performance we looked at a couple things where we did like a all legume blend and that really seemed to although it provided a lot of fertility for corn, it caused a lot of surface compaction.

Right.

Because we have so much soil activity in that with the nitrogen production of the legumes, we saw that that caused a lot of very hard soils the next year. And so that's where we had that aha moment that we have to have some cereals in there or some other broad leaves to really help keep the soil aggregation in much better shape. So it's really the function just like you see in a continuous soybean application. Right. The legumes can be pretty hard on the soil on that. So we have to balance that with some grasses and keep that in place. We really felt that going to the multi species getting into the three, five and nine way blends really provided a more stable soil bed from that. But there's other challenges that we picked up in that in regards to the consistency of the stand and the variation in expression across the field.

So let's talk a little bit about that. What have been some of the challenges of the multi species blends? What are some of the difficulties that you've been encountering?

What do you think Chris, on that?

So the the biggest thing and not necessarily just for us, but when you start selling these cover crop blends to other people and you start finding out oh, this particular plant is hard to kill. Where we have a customer, his field is now completely taken over by rapeseed that will not die to glyphosate. So you're not using a certain variety of a grass and now you can't kill with a roller crimper. The blend itself is usually less the problem. And we find problems that are secondary to that when you start introducing more variables to it is what we've seen.

The two examples that you provided Chris, are both examples of terminating cover crops. So has difficulties in getting termination where plants respond similarly to similar termination practices or applications, has that been the primary source of complication with the multi species or have there been others as well?

I would say that's the primary issue because if you're looking at termination for like for example roller crimping, it's a very growth stage dependent event. And if you don't have the proper maturity on every different species at the same time, you wind up with a situation where you may now have to come back with the roller crimper when your crop has already emerged and you risk doing damage to your now emerged crop. So while we like to use only the roller crimper for termination, you often run into circumstances where you're now forced to use a herbicide when you may not want to.

Jay, you've, you've described the kind of the history of your farm and how your operation has developed a little bit. What does the operation look like at this moment? What, what is. What is currently happening? Sure.

So again we're traditional grain farm for the most part, corn, soybeans and small grains. We try to based on acreage habit somewhat even, but again, you know, field size and farm location kind of depend on that. But we do have the three crop rotation. We are transitioning into some more non GMO crop and heirloom grains because we have the on farm flour milling operation. So there's some blend of products there. We don't have a good market for non GMO soybeans. We do tend to use traded soybeans as a kind of a cleanup crop in our rotation for that. But again between corn and soy we'll have a rye. Typically after the soybeans we go to the small grains and then after small grain harvest we put in the large multi species cover crop to rotate into and support the corn crop. We like, like Chris mentioned to use the roller crimper as much as possible, if not for the full termination means as a means to provide a very good layer of mulch. And like Steve Groff says a little bit, the herbicide can go a long way on some managing that, especially as we mentioned when you have that variability in crop maturity. And again, hairy vetch is one of our favorite legumes in front of corn and it can even with the proper timing be problematic with the roller crimper as far as termination. So as we're, we want to get away from as much herbicide and synthetic inputs as possible. But again it's, it's a for profit operation here so you gotta pay attention.

To those details, when you have these, these cover crop complications with termination and so forth, what have you found that works well? Well, there's two questions. What have you found that works well? And in addition to the two that you mentioned, what are some things that haven't worked so well?

So when we're talking rescuing a failed.

Termination, for those of you who can't see, Jay is really laughing right now.

So when you're talking about a failed termination, for us, that usually comes down to herbicide. And the two kings of that are paraquat and glyphosate. As much as I dislike that fact, they will do the job. We have tried other methods. So this spring, we actually had a problem with both of our sprayers at the same time. So we had about 70 acres of COVID crops that we were unable to terminate with the sprayers in a timely manner. So we actually pulled our brush hog across the field to kill it. What we found is that when you use a brush hog, if you have a thick stand of mature plants, it is actually a very effective method of termination. But the moment you go below what would effectively be like a seed level planting of wheat, barley, so you go below 90 to 100 pounds of drilled plants per acre, the effectiveness quickly becomes close to zero.

And as plants are able to recover from that mowing and they just grow back.

Yes.

Yeah. So thanks, Chris. That's an awesome response. But I didn't. I must not have formulated my question clearly because that wasn't quite the question I meant to ask. The question that I meant to ask was, in terms of COVID crop combinations, what are, what are cover crop combinations of different species that you have found to combine well, that work well together.

So cereal, rye and hairy vetch in front of corn is the best that we have. And it's going to be a very long time, I think, before we find a new combination that we like. In terms of soybeans, we've always said that cereal, rye just alone does really well. But we will pair that with some kind of radish. Well, or brassica in general. So whether that's radish, turnips. Yeah, rapeseed. Those are the two big combinations that we like. And then you add on to that for whatever small details you need.

Yeah. And we like crimson clover and winter peas as part of a mix in front of corn as well. Crimson clover has become a little problematic for us because of the wet springs. That seems to lead to some problems in the seed bed for us on that. So we're trying to Understand that a little bit better. But we have a lot of customers that do have great success with crimson clover on that. They've had actually several that are able to use the roll crimper for termination of the crimson clover as a monocrop that's been pretty successful in an organic type situation. So for us with the multi species, the crimson clover has given us some, some problems with corn in regards to some disease in the furrow on that just because of the weather conditions we think and a little bit with some planter modifications may have helped that. So we've had some issues with closing the seed trench because of the, the root mass that's in the ground. So we think that some planter modifications to make sure that the, the seed trench with corn, you know, gets closed properly and we don't have air pockets. That's an important aspect.

Yeah, I was about to ask you because the disease, I was about to ask you what the considerations were for crimson clover. What are the specific pathogens or diseases that you're observing to be a problem, to be problematic.

So what we're seeing in our area at least is that in the spring you have usually a pretty dry early April and then late April through the first half of May tends to become very wet. And during that time is generally when we're terminating the crimson clover and planting corn. And that water leads usually to some kind of mold. And the crimson clover also does carry some other diseases. I don't remember the names of them, but generally speaking, what it's resulted in is a reduction in stand count. And when the clover is not fully terminated, I would say that crimson clover is one of the worst offenders in terms of robbing moisture from the crop you just planted. So we'll have a reduction in stand along with it hurts the incoming crop because it's stealing water at an early vulnerable stage.

Got it. So for your local climate and your local context, it is really a, it's partially also a climate and timing perspective that the clover is causing issues where it may not for other may not in other operations. Chris, a bit ago you mentioned the, the foundational cover crops that you were using. Rye and veg, rye and brassicas, etc. And then you mentioned that you will add different add ons and you've mentioned peas and crimson clover as being add ons. What are some of the more valuable add ons that you find that people can get the greatest benefit from?

So if you have areas in your field that generally lay wet and they'll have standing water For a few days. Belansa clover is a cover crop that can sit underwater for three to four days before dying off to being waterlogged, even fully submerged. So if you have dead spots in your field, Balansa clover is a very good place to start in terms of remediating that and getting a root in the ground that'll stay there even after a wet spell. Sunflowers, we've found, are very good for several reasons. So the first one is that sunflowers have a very impressive taproot. They pull up zinc, which is important for the early growth of plants. And finally, we actually had a problem with other farmers in the area getting rent contracts off of us because they would go to the landlord and say, look at this green weedy mess. The branc leaving in your field will pay you more money and turn it brown. But then once we started putting sunflowers into the mix, all of a sudden people say, well, sunflowers aren't a weed, so it's not a weedy mess and it looks pretty. And all of a sudden we stopped losing rental contracts. So sunflowers, while they're not, I would say, a staple. Well, for. For us, they've basically become a staple because we get to keep our rented land.

That's an awesome psychological trick.

I love it.

Yes. So other ones would include flax and oats. They're very good at building mycorrhizal fungi. And as far as row crop applications, those would be the biggest ones. Now, there's others in grazing, but I don't know any of the details on that because we don't generally do animals on the farm. My dad might know.

Yeah. So typically, you know, that would bring in maybe some warm season legumes and some warm season grasses just to improve forage quality. Lastly, buckwheat is another crop that we really enjoy to have for its ability to make phosphorus available and as a attractant for, you know, honeybees and other beneficial insects. So we look kind of secondarily at these other benefits, whether they have interfloral nectaries and things that would support our insect populations, because that's what we've seen as we've other things like stop using neonicotinoids and other seed treatments have real bloom in those beneficial insects to the point where we typically don't see degradation of crop based on pestilence. So it's usually other issues in regards to either poor choices in our own management. But insect pestilence has not been a problem for us.

Jay, you mentioned that you have discontinued use of neonicotinoids. And then you said another seed treatments. Are you planting a seed without any seed treatments? Have you experimented with that?

We generally try to do seed corn as naked as possible. Soybeans are much easier to get naked seed because they're generally supplied that way. Typically if we purchase like say our traded beans, we'll get them with just inoculant applied and seed corn. We buy as much untreated seed corn as we can right now.

You know, when we do get seed treatment on our seeds, fungicides, we're not too terribly averse to, especially when you have a wet spring or a cold spring. But we, we will not accept any seed that has insecticide on it. Because what we've found is that the moment you put insecticide on the seed and you have slugs, the slugs, when they start feeding on your seeds will absorb that neonicotinoid or other seed treatment that has insecticide. But they're a mollusk, they're not an insect. So it doesn't kill them. And they then become a carrier for that insecticide. And instead of the insecticide killing a pest form of insect that would feed on the seed, you are now killing your beneficials, whether that's ground beetles, firefly larva or ladybugs that would feed on those slugs.

Wait, hang on. I'm learning something new here. I didn't realize that insects would feed on slugs.

Yes, I think it's primarily the eggs.

Okay.

Looking at not the slugs themselves, but.

Fireflies will actually like. And the ground beetles.

The nymph.

Yeah, the firefly nymph. And ground beetles will predate on slugs.

The firefly nymph is what is called a glow worm. Is that right?

Possibly.

Do I have that straight or am I thinking of something?

Yeah, lightning bugs.

Yeah. That is intriguing. Yeah. You know, I have, I've noticed just over the years we don't see nearly the firefly population that we used to, that I used that I remember 20 years ago. And it's been interesting to observe as I'm driving through the community in the evening, often with a horse and buggy. You get to see different populations in different areas. And it's been interesting to observe that there are several. There's one stretch of road that I drive quite frequently that has been in horse pasture for as long as anyone can remember, probably 30 to 40 years and in a, in a low lying area. And that area has the most abundant firefly population I've ever observed. It's just it's, it's an interesting contrast and I think there's value in driving through the community with a horse and buggy rather than a vehicle because you get, you get to pay attention and to see more of those things throughout the landscape and throughout the ecosystem. We've talked a bit about the history of your operation and what it is that you're doing today. We haven't yet talked about the flour mill. My question is, how do you hope to see your farming operation evolve in the future?

Yeah, I think our hope is between the. Because we do sell some cover crop seeds as well. So that's kind of a third business in the operation. And with the seed cleaning operation, I believe in our discussion is that we would like to see the potential that everything we produce on the farm either gets sold through the seed cleaning and seed sales operation or through the flower milling operation or related industries on that. And Chris can expand a little bit.

Yeah. So when you do value avid products such as milling, you're able to significantly increase the value that you get out of those crops on your farm. So we used to have a place where we could sell food grade soybeans and we don't now. But if we could eventually get to a place where everything we're selling is actual food instead of something that turns into ethanol, that's something that we rather do as opposed to, oh, where we fill up the truck and send it to the elevator.

It's interesting you mentioned soybeans are food grade soybeans because when you, when you said that you want to sell everything through either seed cleaning or through the milling process, the first thought that went through my mind as well. The soybeans just got the ax. Yeah. I know this is somewhat of a hypothetical question, but what is your desired timeline? How rapidly would you desire to see this evolve and what are the, what are the hurdles that you see?

We're in process on that right now. Our hurdle is really our ability to invest in our infrastructure to support that right now. So we're a little bit leveraged based on having bought some land and some new equipment. So we're trying to balance that demand with additional investment in improving the area where we're doing milling. It's kind of primitive from that. So we're looking to improve the working conditions in that area, add extra capacity. It seems that we have a very good and growing customer base. And I've got some assistance, actually employ a husband wife team to help with the milling operation and the marketing on that side so that we can kind of focus on the farm operation and the seed cleaning aspect of that because we've engaged other farms in that. So we're not individually on this on our own. Since we have the seed cleaning capacity and we had like minded producers that we work with to clean seed. We built what we call the Central Ohio Grain Hub out of that. So we have a handful of other producers that grow some of the wheat or the corn that we mill. Just so it's kind of a shared responsibility and we are working to improve their cash flow as well in these little niche areas. So we're trying to build our little community on that. And it has adds a good bit of story to that. Right. So we have an informal type cooperative that we're working with, very loose on that. So it takes a lot of trust and cooperation and we're all learning, right. Because we're all coming from commodity grain production into this food quality area. So it's a little bit different to produce food quality grains as opposed to commodity feed materials. So we're, we're helping each other out on that and really reaching out into other areas, you know, other sources where we can get more ideas on how to do that and how to improve, you know, what we're doing and build, build that story and build trust and in our customer base the same way.

I wanted to ask you about your customer base. What has particularly for the flower that you're producing, what has the demand looked like and why are people interested in buying from you? What are the elements of the story that they're particularly attracted to?

So it's fairly small right now. What I would consider small. We're very fortunate to have a large bakery that gives us some flow through on that. And their interest is to have a produce the flour produced locally on that. That's part of their story is locally and that we use a stone mill to mill the flour. So that's particular to their story that they're telling and it fits in well with the customer base. We're looking at more artisan type bread producers, handmade tortilla type producers as well. So it's more of a niche farmers market aspect or independent grocery where they're looking for that local aspect. So our story being local, the loose cooperative of like minded individuals focused on healthy soils makes healthy food, makes healthy people. And so with the, the transparency in far as the identity preserved aspect that we can tell the consumer individually, the farmer and the field that the grain came from and then the techniques that we use for production I believe is what fits well, with the narrative that we have here, when you say you're.

Relatively small or relatively small volume, what does that look like? What is the volume that you're able to support right now and what does the demand side look like? How do you expect to see that evolve?

So yeah, we're milling, I'd say, you know, a couple hundred pounds of flour a week in the different varieties. I think we have, you know, three or four hard red wheats, rye and einkorn. Right. So of those different things, there's, there's different volumes on, on all of those. The hard red wheat's, you know, by far the most popular because it's the most common in that, that's most used in the artisan baking. So most of us are planting in the 5 to 10 acre field range and that supports us. We're getting up into that 15 and 20 acre range based on our projections for where we're going. And then that's why I'm looking at increasing the machine capacity, right. Adding some larger machines or adding some labor force to extend some working hours to hit those volumes there. But right now it's fairly manageable with some small to medium sized machines in that several hundred pounds a week type of flower production.

You know, earlier in our conversation you, you made mention of how common the theme is of having support networks, of having support in a group, of having a handful of peers that may not necessarily be in close geographical proximity, although I think that would be ideal if that were possible. But having a group of people who have shared vision, shared values and can really support each other. What perspectives or what insights do you have to share with growers who may be struggling to find those connections in their own local area? How do you develop that network? How do you develop those connections and relationships?

Some of it is going to trade shows, right? And, and being willing to talk to people on that. So that's a big thing from that. I think we had the opportunity, having the, the business where we were selling cover crops to get introduced to some producers that were like minded and got us introduced into the, the food grade wheats, you know, the hard red wheats and things of that nature. And they say, why don't you think about doing this? And we said, well, maybe we'll think about it, you know, so we were fortunate on that side of it. So a lot of, I think those connections have come from just being at different trade shows and being willing to talk to people on that. Chris is basically a starting out farmer. We didn't raise up on the farm, he kind of came into it as a young adult and so he had explained his experience.

So most of our local connections have come through the fact that. Or a business that sells cover crops. So any local farmer that wants cover crop generally comes to us because they know, oh, the brands have what I'm looking for. And then at that point you have your connection made where you can go and talk to them and they can come talk to you. And the more people around you that start using these practices and these products, the more you're local network grows. That's just what we've been able to do simply because we already had this cover crop seed business active. And so that's how we've met most of the people locally near us who are of like mind.

Yeah, I think Mike, when David, you know, got started, there was the young farmers, part of the national young farmers organization that he was very active in, as well as Farm Bureau. So those were two things that kind of helped him meet people.

Right.

And get engaged on that. So I would encourage people to look at that. We have our local organic certification group ofa. Right. The Ohio Ecological Farm association. So we're members of that. And so I would encourage people to, you know, get engaged in those activities, whether you, even if it's to maybe be on the Soil and Water Board or something, or consider that attending those meetings.

Right.

So now you, you expand your circle of influence and you have that opportunity to find local or regional support that way.

You know, one of the things that I find interesting, you mentioned considering being on the Soil and Water Board. And one of the things that I find interesting is that in many parts of the country there are very few people interested in local governance and participating in local government all the way from. It can be county level, it can be township level, it can be organizational like non governmental organizations, the Farm Bureau, Soil and Water Conservation Districts, et cetera. And in some of these roles there is an easy opportunity, relatively easy opportunity to have a significant positive influence on the community. And it is one of these situations where I've observed many occasions where people who were not so much interested in the role from a community benefit perspective, but were interested in the role from a very selfish or perhaps an ego perspective, had very damaging influence, but they remained in those roles simply because nobody else wanted to contribute, nobody else wanted to participate, when there would have been many, many people within the community who would have, who would have been able to do much better and provide a much better community service than the people who were engaged in those roles. And so I think there's just. There's an incredible opportunity. You know, there's this quote. It's often. I'm going to butcher it a little bit, but to the extent that the only thing required for people with poor intentions to lead in something is for people with good intentions to do nothing. And in many parts of the country, we've become very apathetic and we've become very disengaged from local governance because of our general dissatisfaction with what's happening in politics generally. And there's a lot of pieces that contributed to that. So I'd love to get your response and your take on that.

We've seen locally that being on your school board and being a township trustee are some of the most impactful positions that you can have. And based on the different compositions specifically of township trustee boards near us, it significantly impacts what happens in your local area. Because we are currently going through different scenarios with land zoning and other things right now that are going to have an absolute impact on whether or not our operation even exists in the next 10 years. So people really need to become a township trustee, a school board member. You really should be getting involved in these things because they are much more important than you think they are, and.

They'Re not that hard. No.

Yeah. The other thing that we would say is another aspect of community engagement is be involved with our local FFA chapter and the impact that you can have on the students in your organization. Even in our somewhat rural community, there's hardly any students that actually live on a farm anymore. So for them to have an opportunity to participate in those programs, and in our case, where we take our machinery and we allow them either to ride in the tractor or the combine, or even potentially operate it as part of the planting or harvesting scenario, provides a great vision for them to recognize that the food doesn't come from the grocery store counter. Right. That it originates here in the field, and that there's even an opportunity for them to participate in agriculture if they have an interest to do so.

That's a very. A very critical piece, I think, is connecting and engaging with young children, young kids, teenagers. There's so much easy opportunity there. And that actually leads me a question for you, Chris. Obviously, you were exposed to agriculture. I'm sure you were active in the farm on some level as you were growing up, but you have the benefit of a fresh perspective or perhaps a new perspective on the farming enterprise and the farming operation. What were some of the things as you came into the organization and into the Agricultural space generally. What were some of the things that you looked at and started wondering, like, why is agriculture doing these things this way? This makes no sense.

So what I saw was you're at.

The right age range where you could see that really easily.

Yes. So what I saw when I was coming in is something that David would talk about. And it's. Why is it that farmers are so singularly obsessed with the yield monitor? Because what I was starting to look at when I came in is I love to play with spreadsheets. So what wound up happening is I started making spreadsheets so I could see exactly how much money was being spent on a per acre basis. And when you start looking at how those numbers play out in our operation versus a standard operation, when you are so obsessed with yield and you don't care about the inputs that you put into the farm to get to that yield, you start throwing profit down the drain. And when we're looking at today corn Prices are below $4 at the elevators, it doesn't really surprise me that farming is in the state that it's in, since we're now dependent on government payouts to keep corn and soybean prices where they are. And that basically, if the government decided they wanted to stop giving farmers welfare, every farm in the United States would immediately collapse. And it was very strange for me to see just how far people are willing to go to ignore the net profit category. Because a lot of people say that farming is a lifestyle, but once that lifestyle stops earning money, what happens to you?

It's no longer a sustainable lifestyle.

Yeah, it was very strange to see. That was just the biggest one that I saw.

As you were playing around with spreadsheets and running evaluations, running different scenarios, what were some of the things that stood out to you? You're describing that growers are chasing yield at the expense of profit. What are some of the scenarios that you found to be the most profitable?

So the more diesel fuel you don't use, the more money you save. And it's a very significant amount of money. So on our farm, we will be anywhere from one and a quarter to one and three quarters of a gallon of diesel fuel per acre. Whereas if you run a heavy tillage team and you're doing two, three, four passes, you may be closing in on three to four gallons an acre. That's one expense right there on your farm that you are doubling depending on the well.

Diesel is also an analog for a lot of other things. It's an analog for capex and depreciation and maintenance.

Yes. And I mean, if you look at the price, price of tillage tools nowadays, it is hideous because that is more horsepower in a tractor you have to pay for. And even if you look at a series of tractors and you go from the lowest to the next highest horsepower in the same series of tractors, you're looking at $30,000 just for an engine tune. So the idea that you have to spend more money on your tractors, get a larger frame tractor, and then you have to buy a tillage tool that you then have to pay over $100,000 for, and how many thousands of dollars do you need to spend to rebuild it once it's worn out? I mean, the expenses in these pieces of equipment really destroys the profitability on a farm. It's pretty incredible.

And our primary looking at that would be in a conventional scenario where you're doing tillage with a high speed disc or a vertical tillage tool and still applying herbicide in a traditional manner.

Right.

So that's where we have that balance of, you know, in a traditional sense versus what we would do in a different cropping system.

So I've seen this clip or this quote be circulated around where they're showing two different pieces of equipment, one that is probably 40 or 50 years old, maybe 30 years old, built back in the 70s and 80s in more modern equipment. And the quote is, one of these paid for the farm and the other one takes a farm to pay for it.

Well, even back then it took a farm to pay for the equipment. But the thing is the cost, it is true, in a sense, the costs of tractors has skyrocketed to a ridiculous extent. I am personally someone who is more interested in the. I don't want to say comfort, but it's very important to me to minimize fatigue. So I can see where newer tractors with better transmissions, better seat, better air conditioning systems have a place on a farm. But there is also the fact that a new tractor costs over $500,000, depending.

On what you're getting.

Yep. We live in an interesting world where anyway, farm economics is a rabbit hole that. Yeah, agricultural economics in general is a rabbit hole. That would make for an interesting conversation, but I'm not sure it's particularly, particularly enlightening because most people are entirely too intimately familiar with it already.

Indeed.

And they feel trapped, they feel stuck. And our reason for having this conversation is to provide a. To point to a pathway out of that zone.

Yep.

When you think back over your farming history and how you've observed your operation and other operations evolve. You know, most of us, as we look back on our life, we have these kind of light bulb moments or these memorable moments where something just. We had an experience that really stands out in our memory and we could never see the world quite the same way again after that. What are some of those moments for you? What are some of those memorable moments that have shaped and that have caused you to think differently about how you are farming?

So I never really knew much about farming until about 2017, which is when I came back from university to work on the farm because I just wanted a semester off. But David would often host NRCS training sessions. So as someone who knew nothing about farming, the thing that I found most impactful was the rainfall simulator. Because when you look at the different types of soil that you'll put on a rainfall simulator, and you see this powder, basically for a tillage demonstration pan, and you start putting rain on it, it's like, okay, it's powder. There's nothing to keep the water there. It's just gonna go all the way through. And the entire thing is just gonna be basically water and mud when you're done. And that's what I thought, because if you look at neighbors fields when they're harvesting during rain or something, I mean, it's just mud. But then the demonstration ends and the.