Episode 160: Creating Disease-Resistant Vines without Fungicides with Steven Thompson

Hi, friends, this is John. Welcome back to the Regenerative Agriculture podcast. Today I'm here with Stephen Thompson and you know, this conversation about how we improve soil health, plant health, and ultimately have an impact on public health and our overall ecosystem is a conversation that so many people are pushing forward and are making progress and contributing to the momentum in their own lives and the people in the communities that are around them. So I've been looking forward to having this conversation with Steven. Steven, thank you for being here. I'd love to tell us a bit about your context and your story, the scope of your operation and what it is that you're working on.

Thank you, John. It's a real pleasure and honor to be here. AEA has done so much for me and my evolutionary thinking and practice of farming. So it's a real, a real treat. The, the context for, for my relationship with Regenerative Ag and being here today is where I'm a diverse farming operation focused mainly on wine, grape production and fresh cherry orchards in north central Oregon. A little town called Mosier here in the Columbia. Gorgeous. It's a beautiful place to live and work. We have four really beautiful, vibrant seasons and. And we started this endeavor. My business partner Chris Fade and I, we started back in 2010 and began what, what is now Analemma Wines. And we've. Yeah, we, we've just been working hard here transitioning a conventional cherry farm, what was a conventional cherry farm when we purchased it, into a more diversified operation. And we've been focused on regenerative ag since inception and kind of reached a milestone in 2017 when we were certified through Demeter, the organization of Demeter for biodynamic certification. And yeah, we just really enjoy creating a farm here with a lot of individuality and personality and welcoming guests and visitors ever since then.

And you're correct, you do live in a beautiful area and you also live in quite being in Mosier, you live in pretty close proximity to several of our AEA team members, which I'm sure is a lot of fun.

Exactly. Yeah, I've developed a nice relationship with Jim Dunlop and Kevin Tully. Yeah, they've been here to the farm and been instrumental in my deepening my learning about through SAP analysis and they helped me with the Foliar spray program and I could. I think it's worthy to note that I was first introduced to AEA when you came out to visit Mike omeg like probably 10 years ago maybe, and to his cherry orchard. And I attended that worship.

Is that the time we had a Field day there with Lynn Long.

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting because, you know, I've often been intrigued by what happened or what didn't happen following that event here. We had an individual, an organization who was considered a leading cherry grower in the region and the support of Lin Long, who was highly regarded in the space, both describing the remarkable successes that we observed there, and yet there were very few people interested in pursuing that. It's quite an interesting. Or at least it wasn't obvious right then. In the short term, it was a really interesting dynamic.

Yeah. Well, as we both know, agriculture is very traditional, and tradition has a lot of inertia and it takes a while to see change come. I think it's coming more rapidly now, but just the farming population in general is more apt to stay with the tried and true. And this is what I'm doing. And, and I also think it could be related to just the cherry industry and how that works. And there's less. Well, I can't. I can't speak totally because I'm not fully a participant in it, but I appreciate. What I do appreciate here on our farm is that we're vertically integrated and have agency over our crop and the sales of it. And when that agency is taken away, it's a little bit harder.

Yeah, it certainly changes the incentives, that's for sure. So as. As you've been on this, as you've been on this journey, what. How has your operation evolved? You started in 2010. What, what are you doing differently today than what you started doing 15 years ago? And how. How have you seen things transition and evolve over time?

Well, we. When we first purchased the property, it was. Well, It's. It's a 52 acre parcel and it was 100% planted to cherry trees, older trees. At the time, they were about 40, a little over 40 years old, the majority of them. So they had already seen their prime, so to speak. And so we began to transition those orchards to vineyards, since that was our intention from the beginning. And that took quite a bit of work and time. So taking out the orchard and leaving the ground fallow for a couple years and planting cover crop and then installing vineyards and of course, you know, coming into a new property. There's a lot of learnings just with soil types and understanding what you're working with. We're here at about 600ft elevation, and that is in the area of the Missoula flood deposits, so we have a lot of cobbles and sands. So we're kind of getting to know those soils at the time. And we, we didn't transition all of the orchard immediately, so it was done over a period of 10 years, so we were doing three to five acre blocks at a time. And so during that period, we were also farming quite a bit of cherries. And that was new for us. And while we did practice organic viticulture since inception, we needed to bridge the cherry farming with synthetics and proper foliar to control SWD and some other pests, because there's kind of zero tolerance in the cherry industry for western cherry, fruit fly and such. So that, that was a big learning for me and, and interesting how you. I was, you know, had to learn something that deep down my values were a little bit different, but yet I had to, I had to move forward, you know. Yeah. And there was a lot of learning there. And we, we spent a lot of time diversifying the property since then, so adding a lot of hedgerows, flowering areas, isolating areas to remain as they were. You know, just regular forest and native grasses.

What does your operation look like today? What. How many cherries do you have left? How much is vineyard? What is, what do your headrooms and flowering areas look like?

Yeah. Yep. We're down to about five acres of cherries. So 10%.

That seems like a sunset.

Yeah, no, that. That's plenty to. To handle. And we're up to about 20 acres of vineyard, and the rest is designated right now under pasture. So we have some cows, got a big veggie garden, and the hedgerows, the flowering areas are interspersed throughout the property. For example, we have a steep facing hillside which is all planted to a vineyard, but we have every eight rows of grapes, we have a huge row of lavender planted down. So there's about eight rows of lavender across three acres. That's just strikingly beautiful in the summertime when you have the beautiful chartreuse green new growth of the grapes and the golden grass and the purple lavender right along the roadside. So the whole community gets to benefit from. From that agricultural art, you know, we like to call it. So what was the, what was the.

Inspiration for the lavender? What benefits have you observed?

Three. Three things, primarily. One, aesthetics, for sure. Two, bringing in the beneficial, pollinating insects. Those rows of lavender are just engulfed in, you know, bumblebees and amazing diversity of bees. And all the pollinators come in. And then, as you might be aware in the gorge here, we have pretty persistent summer winds. And those winds can blow the lavender oils across the grape clusters and grapes themselves. And the Sense of kind of indirectly and directly contributing to the flavors and aromatics of the wine.

That's intriguing. Yeah. You're what, the number one kite surfing spot in the world or something like that?

Exactly. Yeah. And in the context of viticulture, it's helpful to reduce pest pressures and diseases and thicken the skins.

Yeah. So do you have any. Does, does the lavender aroma like what is showing up in the wine? Is it detectable?

We. We haven't done anything more than just sensorial analysis. And you know, I'd say no, there's not a definitive lavender essence in there. But, you know, in the context of wine, there. There really is no best wine out there. You know, a winemaker strives to create a wine that is non duplicatable, you know, a sense of place from a certain property and so to that, in essence. Yes, you know, it's in there. It's. It's distinctly analemma, distinctly mosure hills.

Intriguing. All right. We got caught up in the lavender piece a little bit. You, you were starting to talk about some of the other flowering. Yeah, flowering plants and things.

Yeah. Well, back to the colors and agricultural art. We, we planted a lot of forsythia, which just gives a beautiful, you know, hue of yellow and early springtime coming out of winter. Really love that. Obviously the cherry trees are beautifully flowering in early April and then just a lot of natives along the. Just the borders of the blocks and the fence lines. Again, to, to attract as many insects and pollinating insects to create a healthy microbiome of the farm. And we were here to foster life and bring life in. And that's a big way to do it.

So let's talk a bit about agricultural art because there was this, this era in history and I'm sure there's a lot of local and cultural variation and nuance Recently, I'll say recently, it's half a dozen years ago, I took some friends from a European country to visit an Amish community that has a. It's not the community that I live in, but an Amish community that has a very strong agrarian culture and history. And these, the homesteads are surrounded by flowers and gardens and everything is proverbial neat as a pin. And I still remember, I still remember this comment that one of my friends made. He said, this is the epitome of civilization. This is the ultimate. This is the ultimate of civilization. And that, that gave me a lot to think about that. In agriculture and in farming, many of us, we perceive a lot of beauty. We perceive beautiful sunsets and Beautiful fields that are in flower or fields of ripened grain, the joy of a newborn animal. There are many aspects that we get to really appreciate, and sometimes you have these beautiful verdant landscapes that photographers like to take photos of. And there's. There is a lot of beauty in agriculture, but the majority of it, I would suggest, is not by intention. It's not by design. It's just, it's happenstance. It's. It results inadvertently of the other things that we are doing in agriculture. And there's a number of contributing factors and reasons for why that is. But there is also a sense that the kind of the highest form or the highest evolution, the pinnacle of civilization, is art, not just pure productivity.

Yeah.

And so anyway, I'm rambling, but I'd love to get your. I'd love to get your perspective on what inspired you to deliberately create agricultural art. And. Yeah. What is your, what is your thinking?

Oh, there's so much there. What a, what a, what a beautiful topic. Right. To create agricultural art is representing one's intention, you know, and I, if I may, you know, I think a huge purpose of humanity could be to reflect the beauty of the world. And agriculturalists are in a wonderful position to do so because I like to say, and I borrowed this from Ian McGillicrest, great author and philosopher, and he, he said that beauty is measured in aliveness. And I think that's a wonderful statement and very true. You can see beautiful people that are just alive and vibrant.

Exactly.

And loving to live. And we know nature is, of course, it's alive and it's beautiful. And when you work in service of life, it's, it's easier to see that beauty. And so that, that, that's what's inspiring to me about it. And it's such a privilege to work in this industry, to do so.

So the analogy of people, I mean, we have this word vibrancy to, to express the, the degree of aliveness, if you will, the, the exuberance that some people carry and bring to life and bring to the conversations. And a friend said something to me, gave me a lot to think about recently. He said, john, you don't understand what it's like when you're not in the room. When you come into the room, a group of people who are having a conversation, they, the, the conversations change because of your presence in the room, and you don't recognize it because you're never not in the room. You don't know what that's like. But all of us have that influence on the people around us, some people have more suppressive effect and others have an uplifting effect, but that's just on the people around us. When you take that to an agricultural landscape and you consider the landscape and the ecosystem your canvas, if you will, how do you bring vibrancy and exuberance to that canvas?

This is such great. And I would concur with the friend that mentioned that to you, because I can even hear that sense of aliveness in all the podcasts that you do. You have a fondness and an earnestness and sincerity towards regenerative ag that is palpable, you know, in, in your con. In those conversations and dialogues. And your, Your question was how. Sorry, how to.

Well, how the, the analog is. We recognize that people have vibrancy.

Oh, yeah.

How do we as stewards, how do we deliberately, intentionally purposefully create vibrancy in the ecosystem?

Yeah, excellent. I, I do that personally through astute observation and a collaboration with. I think that the natural rhythms that want to occur and that are occurring, so recognizing the, the growth potential and in whatever it is you're growing and trying to accentuate that, I, I believe I can recognize certain natural rhythms and orders that different plants have. And, and mainly if I could just speak to the vinifera, you know, vinifera grape, that in particular is intimately connected with the sun cycle. Hence you get a lot of vegetation growth in the spring and then in the best case scenario, flowering at the time of summer solstice, the longest day of the year, and then a contraction into ripening. And so when you can locate the vineyards that, where that vinifera can, can go along with that cycle, the best. It best expresses itself. So, and it's at most at home, and then therefore the most beautiful, perhaps just in the sense of allowing it to express itself to the fullest. Joel Salatin always used to say, you know, kind of the pigness of the pig or the cowness of the cow, you, you leave the horns on the cow because that's the way the cow is and that, that's. That's beauty. Allowing the chickens or animals to, to roam and be as they are. That's beautiful. So I think it's a collaboration with the natural elements and bodies that are there and allowing them to fully express themselves.

Well, there is that, but there is also another element, and I'm just totally ripping off the top of my head right now. I've not thought about this, but there is an element of, On one hand, I want to say color, and on the other hand, there Is a. A lack of sameness, a lack of uniformity. A perfectly uniform field of any given crop has. There can be a. There's a certain sense of beauty in a field of ripened grain, for example. But if we attempted to. To put together a jigsaw puzzle that is just a photo of a field of grain versus rows of grapes that have lavender interspersed with them, there is a very different sense of pleasingness to the eye and the aesthetic. There's a very different sense of art there. It's not really that one is better than the other, but there is a difference in. I would suggest what I'm. Maybe what I'm trying to express is that I think there is an association between vibrancy and exuberance of life with a diversity of color, diversity of different colors of greens, diversity of different colors of flowers. It's when you have a high degree of uniformity that it's not that it's not artistic, but it's artistic, perhaps in a less vibrant way.

Well, our eyesight is a powerful sense, for sure. And so I think you're correct in the sense that when we have a multiplicity of colors, it's very striking. I mean, that's why the sunset is magical. And sunrises. And we know you mentioned earlier, agriculturalists are. They spend long hours outside, so they get to see a lot of sunrises and sunsets and just the infinite array of colors. Even in the fall, when the leaves change, you get foliar expressions of infinite shades of the rainbow. Well, not quite the full rainbow, but you know what I mean? And. Yeah, so I. I agree with you. Yeah. Color is a big part of that.

I have this. I have this interesting experiment that I'm working on right now. I wanted a space to plant some nut trees and. And various fruit trees in close proximity to our home. And we have more pasture than is necessary to support the animals that are here. So I renovated, I don't know, one and a half or two acres of pasture. And I knew that if it was just planted in trees, then having. Having nice landscaping and having nice aesthetics is very important to my wife, and it's important to me as well. But it. This wasn't a space I didn't want to just to be addicted to constantly mowing it, and I have the need to constantly mow it to keep it nice. And we're in a. We're a very lush growing environment. 45 inches of rainfall a year. Things just grow here.

Yeah.

You do nothing. You will. You will have a jungle. And so I planted it just two weeks ago, a little bit better than a week ago, with 50 different species of perennial flowers. Just everything together in one combination, drilled it into the entire mix. It's all types of perennial flowers, and we shall see. We've had good rains, we have good conditions. We'll see what comes up. But it's everything from herbal species like chives and thyme and oregano to echinacea and Shasta daisies, and it's everything that I could come up with all combined into one. So it'll be interesting to see what that, how that looks over the next couple of years.

That's, that's impressive for sure. We, we incorporate a lot of flowering or diverse flowering in our cover crops, so we, we drill in or see every other row throughout the vineyards. And this spring, I mean, we have about 25 inches of annual rainfall here, but this spring, the rye was seven feet tall, you know, and we let it grow until about June 1, just before kind of the reproductive stage, and then incorporated it in. And I, when I look down the rows of vineyard, wow, that, that row is alive. And then the, the, the adjacent row where we didn't see anything, it just looked dead to me, you know, and so the color and was very impactful. And, you know, something else that came to mind while you were talking about this and, and just creation of agricultural art. It's, I, I think I like to say farming is an expression of one's philosophy. You know, how you see the world is going to generate the type of practices that you're gonna employ. And do you see the soil as a living community of microbial activity that needs support and nurturing and fed through photosynthesis? And then you're going to treat it differently than just a medium to extract from. And so I think philosophy has a strong part to play in how a farmer goes about creating that beauty.

Well, this has been a fun conversation, Steven. I think with the hundred plus episodes that we've done, I'm not even sure what the count is at this point. This is the first time we've talked about art on the podcast, so this is a great conversation.

Well, I'm glad to bring that in because we don't want to overlook or underestimate the value of the intangible that cannot be seen.

Well, I think increasingly, when we really tune in and connect with the ecosystem that we are managing, we soon begin realizing that the intangible is perhaps not so intangible. It manifests in a multitude of different ways of the way the ecosystem expresses itself the way plants behave differently and express themselves differently. And it's just if, you know, even. I'd say even 15 years ago, the idea that plant biodiversity, that having diverse plant species in an ecosystem would lead to reduced disease pressure or reduced insect pressure was somewhat of a joke. It was somewhat of a laughable idea that many people in the agriculture space more or less made fun of and made a mockery out of. And today the science is very clear. There's no question marks left that absolutely, when you have species diversity and insect diversity, you without question have greater resistance to diseases and insects and you have less pressure in those areas.

So.

Those, those intangible things, I think are beginning to be more better understood, that they in fact have more merit than they might have at first glance. From a mechanistic worldview.

I couldn't agree more. And that this year is a strong case in point for that. We have a vibrant canopy of, of grapes and a beautiful yield, very, very high yield and very clean fruit. And it's been a high mildew pressure year. And our foliar program is based around balancing the macros and micros and biologicals, including biologicals there. And just in conversation with just some peers and other industry members are. Our spray program is fairly, I'd say, light, you know, just in terms of most everyone's spraying, I guess, kind of a heavier, kind of defensive, you know, suppression type program, where we are much more lighter and both in quantities and impact of, of what we're spraying. And. And it's really made a difference over the past seven or eight years now of being consistent and incorporating again the COVID crops and opening the soils and just focused on our microbial program and soil inoculation in the fall and springs. It's made a tremendous difference this year. It has been relatively dry in this area and our canopy is very vibrant and as big as I've ever seen it.

Let's talk a little bit about your cover crops and cover crop incorporation and the things you've been doing with microbial inoculants and so forth. When you say you're incorporating cover crops, are you actually filling those and incorporating those into the soil? What, what does your cover crop strategy or approach been?

Well, we, we generally seed in the fall, and so we might run just a light disking or harrowing to open up the soil just after. This is usually like mid October when we might get a little bit of rain just to soften the top a couple inches. And then we can pass with the tractor and that's post harvest and so then we'll seed. Depending upon the year, we might get a little bit of growth in the fall, but then it's really set to come out strong in the spring and, and then we would. Right now we're incorporating it by flail mulching. So I am, I did try to pursue a roller crimper this year and do that, but with just varying complexities and limitations. I didn't get there. But the mulching has worked really well. And when you, there was a lot of biomass in that and so it's maintained, I think, retain the moisture in the soil a lot longer end of the season.

So is the, is the mulch enough to cover the soil between the rows? Are you putting that into the, into.

The vine row between. It's on the drive row. So right now we're mowing underneath the vines under the vine row. So we're just keeping about, you know, a couple, two or three inches of grass, just a little bit of living root right underneath. But we're mowing it so the grasses don't come up into the canopy and disturb the fruiting zone. But we have that biomass after we mulched it equated to maybe 2 inches plus of debris on top, which shaded things quite a bit that two inches.

So that was when it was immediately fresh or once it had dried down.

I think it probably dried down to less than an inch. But in the beginning, yeah, it was, it was two plus inches for sure.

Yeah. Well, going through a flail mower and having an inch of residue left once it's dried down is, it's quite an accomplishment. What, what was the, you had a fairly significant amount of biomass there. What were the major, what were the major species or what are the species mix look like?

Some, some rye, a little bit of vetch, peas, three different types of clovers, some perennial grasses, and phacelia was in there as well.

Okay, so that's residue that probably melts down pretty rapidly because of the nitrogen component from, from those legumes. And you probably get a very strong CO2 burst, a lot of CO2 release for the benefit of the crop as well. Once you flail them all down, it could be.

I, I, I still have a lot to learn with agriculture and the practices and being able to really see the effect, you know, precisely when we're doing things and as we're doing them. But I trust that everything's happening as it should.

You mentioned, you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that you had, you needed to Learn about the soils and that you have a lot of sand and gravel and rocky soils that you're, that you're dealing with. How, how has soil changed over the 15 years that you've been there?

Yeah, definitely. The soil structure is more conducive to increase in the water holding capacity. It's more crumbly. When, when we started, we generally had to irrigate the vineyards for the first three to five years and now they're all dry farmed. The. Let's see, what else can I measure? Yeah, just the, the soil structure itself is. There's more organic matter. It's darker in color and richer. The underfoot, it feels much more light and spongy, especially in the fall and during the winter when we're pruning. It's really, really nice to stand and be out there. Feels really great. And again, back to that kind of intangible and, and the color. You know, we get a lot of feedback. We. The, the property is divided by, in half by a main road that, that goes. So we have about a half mile of frontage property along that road. And everyone who drives by is like, wow, this place is just vibrant. You know, they, they've been able to see the difference and the color of the green and just the, the feel of it as you go up and down the road. So I think that that contributes and. No, that's what I'm seeing.

Yep. How you, you've been on this, on this transition, if you will, of transitioning over from cherries to the vines and you have vines at different stages of growth. How have you seen as, as you've developed this ecosystem, how have you seen vine health and pest susceptibility change over time?

Yeah, yeah. Much less powdery mildew presence. So that's our main pest and disease. We, in the spring, we used to see more uranium mites and we see much less. There was also a presence of leaf hoppers in the beginning. That's no longer there. And, and so that, that's kind of on the pest side of things, but on the vegetation and yield, what we've seen is a deeper color of green. So, and I'm, I'm very interested in trying to measure the photosynthetic ability on it. And, and Jim's helping me with that a little bit. So I look forward to doing that, to actually trying to quantify what's happening. But the color of green is so much more vibrant and healthy. It's not dim, it's very dark and the leaves are bigger and, and they are more, they face the sun a little bit more, so they're not droopy, but they have a certain kind of levity or, you know, what I'm trying to say, just kind of a verticality to them. And then most particular, in the world of vines and making wine, you're looking for less variability amongst the clusters and, and how they're grown. And so what I'm seeing right now is we're getting nearly a hundred percent primary buds pushing on all the, on all the buds. And so that provides me with, yeah, less variability, more uniformity in size and structure of the cluster. And so our yields are up because of that. And that, that's been consistent. I've really seen that happening over the past five or six years.

And I am curious with all the different plants that you have in the ecosystem. We spoke a little bit about the lavender earlier, the possible contributions of the lavender. But how have you observed fermentation patterns during the winemaking process? And the quality of winemaking is, you know, that's. Winemakers have, as Greg Pineroll describes, you run a bioassay on every crop during the fermentation process. And so you get to actually see what the relative quality is of the product that you're producing.

Yeah, that's great. Thanks for bringing up Craig, Greg. Yeah, I, I got to meet him and enjoy a lot of great conversation with him down at Pisces Ranch last year. So I really admire the work he's doing down in Temecula and he's on to a lot. And your, your question's a great one. The, the. In, I'd say 99% of the wineries purchase commercial yeast from a store and inoculate their fruit to have consistent fermentations and produce a certain profile. But we, we rely on our native yeasts and that is a huge point of differentiation and very important to provide that sense of personality and individuality of the wine when it's fermented from the yeast, from your, the biome of your farm. And we have beautiful clean fermentations. Really getting to dryness is important. And so generally you accumulate a certain amount of sugars in the grapevines and then you have a potential alcohol for the wine itself. And if your yeasts aren't healthy, they, they die off during that fermentation and you're left with residual sugar, which in a lot of wines is not preferable. And so getting the dryness is really important. And we do that quite well. And the, the aromatics of, of the fruit and the fermentation, the resulting wine is very important and you can easily have off flavors or off aromas. But I'm really happy to say that across the 12 different varietals we grow, we have not only heightened level of varietal typicity, meaning they taste like them, like themselves, like the varietal itself. The characteristics that are noted from around the world, they. They carry those characteristics in addition to a consistent quality that is found here at Analemma and in Moser. So they have both. And that is. I'm really glad you mentioned that. It's a huge important part of what we do and why we do what we do. It's been said that, you know, wineries or winemakers can, or wine growers more particularly can be farming for yeasts. And, and that's, that's the importance of our spray program. Yeah, yeah.

And you think about farming for yeasts in conjunction with fungicide applications and for powdery mildew, and you wonder how those. Those align. And the answer is they don't.

Exactly.

You know, this just kind of as a framing and an analog for. Because we have many listeners who aren't particularly wine growers, but it's not uncommon to apply inoculants to enhance fermentation for ensiled forages, for example, for corn silage or baleage or something like that. And when you ask the question like when, where, in which situations are the, are these inoculants valuable or useful? Where do they add anything of value? And the answers, the answer is when you have either very challenging conditions or if I think a more accurate answer is when you have forage that has less than 12 brix. Because generally when you have plants that have high brix values, uh, that is there, not only do they have a higher sugar content, but they also are associated with this much more robust microbiome. And fermentation is strong and clean and it just works.

Right.

And it's when you have poorer quality plants that have lower brix readings that don't have the associated microbiome. That's when fermentation struggles and you end with poor quality fermentation on forages. And this is an analog of what you are describing. Obviously brix levels are very different. We're talking about fermenting a fruit and not installing forages. But there's still an analog here that the reason most people, I would suggest the reason most winemakers are using purchased yeasts is because they can't get consistency otherwise from poor quality grapes.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And you know I can, I can credit yourself and, and the AEA principles in general with kind of converting my or evolving my mindset and approach. Because when I went to school to learn to make wine and grow grapes, it's often said, oh, you know, the best wines are made from grapes that have to suffer, and, you know, the more suffering and the rockiest soils are going to make the best wines. And so I had this mindset of, oh, I have to restrict everything. I have to just keep them on the edge of existence, basically, to, to. To have this great wine. But I, I quickly learned that especially in terms of irrigation, if I, if I withheld irrigation in the attempts to make them suffer or struggle, the wines were more bitter.

Oh, heresy, Stephen. That's heresy.

And, and, and so when I learned of the, the Plant health pyramid, and I said, this is, this is more logical to me, you know, when, when the, the vine, plant, tree or whatever it is that's growing has everything it needs, but not in excess, it's going to be the strongest, most vibrant in vitalized crop and yield. And that's exactly what I'm seeing. And, you know, we've now developed into a point where we can dry farm. And so irrigation variable is out of the picture. There's. There's not that. And, and when you have a more vibrant vine, the roots are very deep and can withstand the vagrancies of the vintage much better. And so they're more drought resistant and tolerant and able to gain a much broader access to the nutrients that they need.

Yeah, and there's variation from various rootstocks as well, that capacity, but.

Exactly. Yeah.

So, Stephen, as you've, as you've been on this, this pathway of, of painting a farm in, in your own image, if you will, what have you observed that surprised you or that was unexpected?

Well, I, I'd like to. At this point, I, I think I'd like to introduce the. The full scope of our farm because we receive a lot of visitors, a lot of guests. You know, nearly 4,000 visitors a year come and are able to. Yeah, to, to come and, and see our property and immerse themselves in it and to see their response and to see how much they love the wines and appreciate the wines. That has. What's been most compelling and surprising to me. So that, that's my answer to your question is out of know, all these 15 years of hard work, and my, Myself and the team, we planted all these vines. Some of these varietals have never been planted in the US before, or certainly this area. And so, to be honest, I had no idea what they would taste like. You know, that's a huge gamble. And so for, for the wines to show as well as they do and be as liked as well as they are is an affirmation of the way we farm. And that's, that's probably the most exciting and compelling and equally surprising thing that I, I've seen since the beginning. And it's, it's so special and just reaffirms how important the way you farm make Makes a difference, makes all the difference.

How. We haven't really gotten into the agronomy aspects very much, but when you're describing these unique varietals and the way that they're expressing themselves, you mentioned that you're now dry farming. You're no longer irrigating. How much of a role did fertigation play and foliar applications play? And how do you expect to see that evolve in the future as you develop much more robust root systems as the vines mature?

Well, I, I, I think this, the fertigation, so the, the soil inoculation has been probably a big catalyst in the rapid development of the soils and increasing the m. Microbial content. So that, that is one element that I am continuing with and I think is very important. Another one is a cultural practice that involves minimal tillage, but I think has been instrumental in pushing us more rapidly towards dry farming. And that is the last tractor pass in the fall. So a little bit before Thanksgiving, let's say, you know, mid November, we'll, we'll put on a couple of deep rippers behind the tractor, right behind the tractor tire, and lower the shanks, you know, 18 inches or 2ft into the soil and drive up and down the vineyard rows. And this is again, this is the last pass we do just before winter. And it's opening up a deep but narrow swath of soil. So it's, it's not totally destroying our soil structure. And there's a lot to explain here, but, you know, in, when we prune the grapevines in February, that's ahead of the growing season of the summer. But when we prune the roots in the fall, that's ahead of their growing season in the winter. So in the summer, all the activity is above the ground, and in the winter, the activity is below the ground. And by cutting off the, the top, say, 18 inches, the surficial roots, they will grow deeper, quicker, and the, the, where the ripper passes, it allows all the winter rains to immediately go down deep in, into the Soil, you know, that 18 inch depth. So we're bringing air and water immediately down there. And on the back of the ripper, we have barrels with microbial inoculant that will run a tube behind the ripper and then drip in life as we go. And we call it ripping and dripping.

Ripping and dripping. It sounds like I could probably come up with music festival analog for that.

Yeah. So, yeah, go ahead.

Let's.

Let's expand a little bit on root growth during the winter. Because I understand the concept of where you're coming from from a biodynamic perspective, but many people would interpret that. That's to say that you're describing physical root growth during the winter months and then be, just be immediately dismissive of that. But in essence, you are, you are pruning at a stage where you are allowing the plant to redirect its sugar reserves to the roots that it wants to expand once it. The physical growth actually begins.

Correct. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for that clarification. Yep, yep. We're redirecting where the plant's putting its energy into, and that's away from the surficial roots to the deeper roots. At a time when you mentioned the biodynamics and at a time when there is a kind of a downward focus of energy and influence, whereas the spring is more of an upward levity, the fall is more gravity and inward.

How have you experimented with the timing of that? How does that timing coincide with the, with the vine's physiological development? With leaf drop, for example, this would be just.

This is just as senescence happens, so leaf drop happens. And I kind of laughed, smiled to myself a little bit because just last year we were doing it and we were talking about color and beauty, and when we were doing this and driving the tractors up and down, we had to blink and close our eyes a little bit because the, just the low sun angle and the bright yellow lemon lime leaves coming in, it was so hard on the eyes. It was amazing. And it, it's the, the. We called it brio is Spanish for vibrancy and, and brightness and brilliance. And we stood there in the vineyard like, wow, it is so brio. And baracho is, is a Spanish term for, for drunk. And so I came up with the idea, okay, borracho de brio, you know, just like. And, and that really gave the state. That's how I'm sure other people in agriculture have had those experiences. Just when you're overwhelmed by the beauty of what it is you're doing and the opportunity you have. That's a great, great one.

Yeah. But this is actually, I'm so glad you, we went into this conversation. Steven, thank you for bringing this forward. Because. In essence, by timing, the timing of your root pruning, essentially, that's what this is. This is a root pruning at a specific stage. And you are directing the sugars as they move from the leaves into the vine and down to the root system. You are now directing those sugars to go where you desire. Root growth. Such an important concept and applies not just to vines, but to other plants as well.

Yeah, it's excellent. So, yeah, that's the, the cultural factor. And then we spoke about the soil inoculation and then I think the other piece is the foliar applications and just giving the vines what they need in terms of their nutrients, both macros and micros, to, to, to do the job and, and go into the winter season fully nourished and not dehydrated. Because our, our winter temperatures can get down to the single digits here, which is life threatening for the vines and certainly for the buds that are there. And so hydration and, and nutrient content is really important. And I, I learned, I think through your podcast that boron is really important micro to, to have in the vine going into winter.

So yeah, we have a lot of experience with nutrition management to, to greatly improve the freezing resistance with nutrition management. But tell me more about the hydration aspect. Why is hydration so important? Because when I think of, of water within a cell, unless that water is in the, in the fourth phase, exclusion zone phase, then free water inside the cell can form ice crystals when it freezes and cause freeze damage. So I've not thought deeply about water's role or the, the degree of hydration's role in freeze resistance. I'd love to learn more about that.

Well, I would too, you know, to be honest. I invite you to study that and help inform me. But from my understanding of winter freeze in grapevines, if you have a prolonged low temps, it will dehydrate the buds. And, and so it's not a freezing of water that expands and harms them, it's a dehydration that.

Got it.

Harms them. And I know a lot of some, some growers anyway will proactively refill their soil profile with water in the fall to make sure that there's no lack of access to water if the vines need to take it up or in the roots or anything. And as interesting is the proactive measure.

It'S the outdoor Version of freezer burn, in essence.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So you had just started talking about the use of foliar applications. What does your foliar application protocol look like today and how has it changed over the years?

Well, in the very beginning we were more reliant on sulfur, wettable sulfur. And then I would purchase organic kind of single species fungicides, you know, that were available on the market and, and that worked but it, it definitely felt like a losing battle. You know, I was trying to foster life but yet I had to suppress it and I didn't, didn't really feel coherent. And the industry norm is maybe if you're using organics then you have like maybe a 10 day window that you need to re, reapply. Systemics are more 15, even up to 20 days. And so that, that, that's how I began. I've slowly started incorporating a little more mineral oil in the, in the spring when temps are very cold or coolish. And then more of the biologicals to out compete or to offer a competition through, you know, to compete against the powdery mildew. So it's not the only strain out there. And then I've also learned the importance of having sufficient supply of say silica and calcium that can allow the vine to protect itself better, harder cell walls so the fungal hyphae don't enter or just the, the natural fungicide of silica would provide. And so I, I do use AEA foliars for that, but I also brew our own teas of, for silica. For example, we brew teas of equisetum. So horsetail and anyone who has know touched a horsetail plant, they know how coarse and full of silica rich though that is. And so we'll brew a tea and then apply that. There's also chamomile teas and valerian teas that we, that we brew and apply. I would like to work more with those herbs and certain because I think this is an important part of the biodynamic approach is to source material, well for one from your own property if you can, or nearby because the less inputs to the farm, the more coherent you are with that biodynamic approach. Just kind of keeping all the needs for the farm, generate them from within the farm. So we're trying to grow more of our own and experiment more with that. We also use ground quartz. We grind literally a quartz rock into a fine powder like a talc powder. And we'll apply that as a tea to have a drying effect and enhance photosynthesis to combat the powdery mildew. And let's see, where. Where else are we. Oh, well, don't want to overlook the obvious. We do SAP analysis about every two weeks. And so I'll be collecting again on Monday, this next Monday, and sending it in. And that's been really helpful in understanding what's needed.

Here's an important question. You've been using SAP analysis for a while, as I understand it. How have your patterns of nutrient needs or imbalances changed over time? Because I think there is this possible conception that using SAP analysis and using foliar sprays creates a. Or can create a dependency pattern. Whereas my argument is that actually, if you do it properly, it removes you from dependency over time.

Exactly. I would confirm what you just said, that I see less dependency needed. Jim actually mentioned recently, like, hey, you can, you know, your micros are extremely elevated. You know, I think you could probably do without, you know, next year. And. And across the board, our macros and micros are up and they're staying up, so I need less and less. And. Which is. Which is excellent. And I can see the efficacy of what we're spraying, you know, and I'm on the tractor myself doing a lot of the spraying. And so I'm driving through and I say, oh, okay, there's magnesium deficiency in the Garnache. And then in the next rotation, I'll put a quart of Fotomag in and the symptoms vanish.

That's so much fun.

It's so much fun. I'm like, wow, this is. This is magical, you know, and I'm seeing it with my own eye and. And I have agency again. I think that that's why it's just a real pleasure to be here today, because I. I just want to let you know how empowering your work and all the podcasts have been for me. And in listening to other farmer stories and seeing the positive impact that they've, They've realized themselves that I can do it, too, and that I am doing it. And it's just so empowering from a grower's perspective to have these tools and abilities.

Well, thank you. It's. The podcast really comes about as a result of everyone's willingness to share. And so when we. When we share our experiences and the things that we've learned, that knowledge can multiply and we can build on each other's work. What. What important things have we missed talking about?

Well, I don't know. Probably a lot, because there's so much to cover. But, you know, you And I were speaking just before we hit the record button about relationship and how life is relationship. And I think that's very important for every grower to consider and realize and. And be empowered by, as you know, your relationship with what you're growing in your farm and. And the people you're serving and the guests you're interacting with is so important. And it's. Those are very different things to relate to, but how you relate can be coherent throughout all of them.

And.

So how one relates, I think, is. It's more important than what it is you're relating to.

And.

Just the. Yeah. That's made all the difference in our own farm here and hosting guests and allowing them to realize the importance of what we're doing.

I think what you're saying, Stephen, is that you shouldn't relate to the plants and animals and the things that are in your operation as objects.

Exactly, exactly.

And it's. I mean, that seems kind of obvious for us when we're interacting with animals. Of course, we don't treat animals like objects, but yet a lot of us treat plants like objects. Animate objects, perhaps, but still objects. And we don't really. We don't engage with them in the same way or approach them or think about them in the same way that we do other living organisms, because they appear, because we don't take the time to sit down and spend time with them. They appear inanimate when in fact, they are not.

Well said. Really well said. I mean, these vines are sessile, meaning they are rooted in a place, and they have to endure all the temperatures and hardships throughout the whole year, you know, and. And we can find a lot of compassion for that.

And.

So living, you know, living and relating as a verb, not a noun. It's just always in motion. It's always in context, and it's always unfolding. And I think that's really important. Yeah.

Wonderful, Stephen. Well, thank you so much for being here for sharing. This has been a wonderful conversation, and I look forward to having more with you.

I agree. Keep up the good work. Thank you so much, John.

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