Episode 169: Nourishing Body and Land with Hilda Gore

Hi, friends, this is John. Welcome back to the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast. Today, I'm here with a person whose work I have greatly admired. And it is something that's very important to all of us because in the words of Masanoba Fukuoko, he wrote that the ultimate purpose of agriculture is not just the production of food and fiber, but the cultivation of human beings, the cultivation of souls and peoples and the health of their bodies and all the things that that embod. And my guest for today is Hilda Labrador Gore, who Hilda, I have so greatly admired the. The energy, your energy, the vivaciousness, the enthusiasm that you bring just in your life in general and that you bring on the podcast that you. That you host, the Wise Traditions Podcast. And you know, as as many of the listeners here on the podcast are, we're all. Many of us are farmers. We come from an agricultural background in various domains. And as a part of this journey, a part of the journey that I was on, we start learning about a healthier. We develop a desire for a healthier form of agriculture. And kind of in parallel on that journey is this desire for improved health of our own bodies and our families. I mean, those things are so intricately intertwined. And yet I'm. I find it intriguing that in many cases, because of personal motivations or whatever the case might be, we have many farmers who are actually more progressive, they're making more progress and further advances in regenerating the health of their farms and their soils than they are in their own personal health. And so I'd like to just have a conversation with you about what are. What are the significant movers, what are the obvious things that all of us can do that can really move the needle significantly for all of us in the countryside? But why don't you begin by telling us a bit about your context, your story, the scope of the work that you're involved with.

Absolutely. So, John, thank you so much for having me on. I was thinking, what's a city girl like me doing on a podcast like this? Because I Live in Washington, D.C. actually, to my dismay. But that's another story for another time. I'll just say that farmers are some of my favorite people I enjoy so much. Friends like Will Harris and Sally Fallon Morel and Joel Salatin, and just I could name countless others who are doing exactly as you described. They are working with the land for the betterment of the land and the animals and the people that will be nourished from what they're doing. But I found that it's true that what you're saying is a lot of people that work the land, put themselves last, and consequently end up with all kinds of conditions which they wouldn't be happy to see happen to any of the livestock on their farm. Exactly. Why are they putting up with it and how did they get there? Well, I'll get to that question, but I'll just back up to give people a little bit of information on who I am. So I am a person who's just so grateful to be on this planet because I was born with a birth defect and I almost didn't make it. And I'm not saying that in hyperbolic terms. It's true. My mom and my dad found out when I was just a few months old that I had a hole in my heart between the lower two ventricles. It was a ventricular septal defect. And that meant that blood was flowing in direction it shouldn't flow. And the doctors were monitoring me and my parents were monitoring me, and they were like, how long is this going to be this way? And how long can this baby live with this condition? Well, when I was nine years old, they did open heart surgery to repair the hole. And I knew in that moment, John, I was like, okay, I don't want to cross the doors of a hospital if I can ever help it again. Because I had been monitored for so many years, catheterizations and all kinds of procedures, pre surgery, post surgery, X rays, all the things that I was like, I don't want to go back there. So I'm going to do my best to stay as healthy and strong for as long as possible. And then as I got older, I realized, oh, I want that mission, that mission to continue not just for me, but for others. And what's so beautiful, in the midst of all of my childhood experiences, I also came to Faith and realized God spared me in the womb because it could have been so much worse. I could have been born with other issues that were much more harder to repair. And then secondly, he fixed the emotional and spiritual hole in my heart. So I just. I'm so grateful. But all of this has given me eyes to see that health is multifaceted, which is one reason I actually go by holistic Hilda, because I realize it's not just physical, it's emotional, it's spiritual, it's psychological, it's all the things. And I have lots of things I can share that I think may help any farmer or any listener right now to move the needle. And I'm not A doctor, which is probably a good thing. Actually, I'm just a certified health coach, but I have been hosting the Wise traditions podcast for 10 years now. And so I've gotten the privilege of learning from experts, and then I've taken it upon myself to travel the world to learn from indigenous people groups that are still holding onto their health traditions. Because my biggest hint and tip, if people get nothing else out of this conversation, is this. It's that for good health today, we need to look. We need to look to the past. And so I hope that is something to get the ball rolling in our conversation today.

Well, I'd like to respond to a comment that you made about farmers accepting health outcomes in themselves and their own families that they wouldn't be satisfied with in their own livestock or in the crops that they're producing. And it reminds me of, I have a quote from Gary Zimmer, who comes from a dairy nutrition background, and he. I've heard him repeatedly make the quote that the cows that they develop dairy rations for are fed significantly better than the majority of the American population, and I'm sure probably the majority of the world population.

Wow. I'm not surprised. Yeah, the care with which we give our. The animals in charge to our care, you know, it's just the attention. And then we'll be like, oh, yeah, my elbows bothering me, but I got to press on, you know, when we just push through without listening. So this will be one of the first things I'll share with you. I have what I call six ancestral secrets. So I'll start with the. The last one, which probably should be the first anyway, and it's spirit. So basically, I think we need to stop and listen in. The Bible says, be still and know that I am God. It's a habit that we've lost in our modern day and age with 24, 7 accessibility now and. And kind of a feeling that we're on call and on demand and often entertained by trivial things that don't really matter or important things that are happening on the other side of the world that weigh us down. The people I have visited, John, in places like Ethiopia and Mongolia, they're not getting news from across the world. They don't know what's happened to a political figure or if there's been a. A tidal wave somewhere. Their most present and their most pressing concerns have to do with their immediate surroundings and their family and their community. And so I think in some ways, the way we start our day sets the tone. So if people immediately grab their phone or even I'll say, grab the newspaper and are taking in all of the bad stuff. It will weigh you down emotionally and spiritually. So I think we need to be still and start our day on our own terms. For me, this means I get outside first thing, I take a daily walk, and I include prayer in it, and I get plenty of sunshine. So I'm kind of stacking my hacks. But the main thing is I'm. I'm. Yes, I'm moving, but I'm internally stopping to be open to what God might have for me in my day and to be starting my day on my own terms. Like, I can't begin to tell you how many ways we're pulled. And I'm sure you know, this, you know, the allure of what's going on in other parts of the planet and what cute little dance somebody's doing on TikTok is big. So we need to kind of put a bookend to our day that nurtures and nourishes the spirit.

I want to come back to the other six or the other five of the ancestral secrets, but let's talk a bit more about the spiritual component, because one of the things that I'm so intrigued by is that we have. The majority of farmers in North America profess to be Christians, and they profess a desire to be good stewards of the landscape and to be good stewards of God's creation. And yet we have this mainstream contemporary model of agriculture that arguably is none of those things very well. It has this destructive effect on the creation that we are to be stewarding. And so there is this. There is this deep internal dissonance that is, I think, in many cases, not even recognized by most people. I'd love to just get your perspective on how. How did that come to be? And what is. What are the. What are the foundational spiritual misalignments that you see that allow that reality to exist?

Yeah, I think it all comes back to relationship. And what I mean by that is it's not. It's to be descriptive. I think a farmer, when they're doing their best job, they are working in collaboration, not prescriptive, not like, here's what I've got for you today. You know, a good farmer will go out in the morning, a cattle rancher, for example, and he'll assess the herd. He'll spend more time listening than speaking. And that's not just because that's the farmer's way. They're usually not very verbose. It's actually because they Know that to be good stewards, they need to pay attention to what's happening. And so that's why, going back to what I was saying about the elbow earlier, if you have something going on in your body, it's your body whispering to you. It's saying, pay attention here. And also, if you feel edgy, irritable, you know, kind of grumbling in the relationships in your household, your spirit is telling you something's wrong. And so I think we need to listen attentively not just to the land that we're stewarding, but to our own relationship, to ourselves, to the people around us, and, of course, to God. I think it's beautiful what the farmer is endeavoring to do, especially those in this regenerative agricultural space. It couldn't be more responsible, I would say, and appropriate. But what if we translated some of the attention that we're giving externally to the internal? And so, for me, again, and I probably learned this from different saints, you know, I've read some of the works of St. Augustine and others in St. Ignatius. But what if we bookended our day and we started it differently? And I mean, by that, yes, spend time in prayer. Spend time in the Word. Get your grounding. And I think even people who aren't Christians, you know, suggest that we need kind of a. A bliss station. I think that's how Joseph Campbell puts it. You know, like, we need a place where we can have an anchor, because otherwise, you know, your mood will be shifting with the wind and. Yes. And with your livestock's behavior or whatever's going on. It's like, we don't want to be puppets on a string. So when we have an anchor, and for me, it is in my Christian faith, then we can weather everything that comes our way. And then at the end of the day, when we put our head on the pillow, we can offer gratitude. I think St. Ignatius talks about doing the examine, and I usually fall asleep before I get very far in that. But he says, you know, look at what was good in your day. Look like. Look at where you fell short, you know, and just kind of offer it all up. But I do like to, yeah, start my day and end it with gratitude at the very least, because how can we say that we're doing God's work if we're not even in touch with him?

I think you so beautifully described many things you said that I'd like to respond to, but it's very. There's this very clear theme and this very clear pattern by the farmers who are and the growers who are deeply embracing this, this stewardship ideal of being still and listening to their livestock, being still and listening to their plants, listening to the field and just getting this, this, this spiritual or this conscience or this intuitive grasp of potential challenges that are non obvious. It's not visual observation, it just, it comes to them of what is happening and what's going on. And I quite like the way that you articulated of projecting that internally and using that same type of cognition, if you will, for our internal state and for the state of our families as well.

And to answer your question, John, about where did we go wrong? Like why did we end up in this kind of big ag model where it's industrialized farming, where you just put a bunch of insides on your, on your fields, you know, pesticides and herbicides and all the things and fungicides and, and you've kind of lost touch with what's happening out there. Where did that come from? I can't. I think it came from our, our desire to find shortcuts in life, really. And always looking for what's convenient. But what's prudent and appropriate and caring isn't always what's convenient. It's much more hard work, in other words, to be a regenerative agriculturalist, I think, and to raise livestock in a way that lets the cattle and the chickens and the goats express their innate essence and being on free pasture and all the things that. It takes a lot more work to work the animals like that than to keep them all penned up and fattening them up with GMO corn and soy because, you know, that'll get them to market faster and generate a profit. If we're really about what's best for the animals and best for the land, we're not going to do that, but it's going to be more work. And as, as a person of faith, I believe that that is worth it because I want to honor God with everything I do.

I'm very glad we began with this part of the conversation. I do think you need to move the spiritual aspect from the sixth item on the list to your first item on the list, because that's where it fit in this conversation.

Yes.

Yeah. Tell us a bit more about the other. Some of the other aspects, some of the other priorities.

I will, but I want to linger here for just a second and tell you, when I went to Australia, I met an Aboriginal woman who told me, you know, in our culture we have the custom of dadiri, which is deep listening. And that's Where I started realizing, oh, this is something that's seen around the world, you know, and it's important because this woman, actually, John, was going to be a Vidal Sassoon hairdresser. And now this woman of the Inengay tribe has custodianship over land where her ancestors once dwelled. And she showed me. It was beautiful. I saw ancient etchings in cave walls and, you know, all kinds of clues from the people that had lived there before that she has the privilege of overseeing. And she wouldn't have been in that direction if she hadn't stopped and listened. So I just thought that was so beautiful. That really moved me. And. And I have so many stories I can tell you, but I will go back to some of the other ones. Okay. All right, I'll tell you one more quick one. When I went to Ecuador in 2021, I got to be with some Quechua or Quechua people. And I remember when we were together, they said, you know, last year, a lot of members of our community got sick. And it was in. During the time of COVID And they said, what we did was, the women said, we gathered about 20 medicinal plants and herbs, and we took them to every household that was affected. And they said, no one was hospitalized and no one died. And I was amazed. And I thought. My first thought was, can I see the list of the medicinal plants and herbs so I can share it with my friends? But then I realized, John, oh, my goodness. It wasn't necessarily just that these things were so efficacious in protecting the immune system. It's that they were given in the context of love and support and community, like, it was the way in which they were given. Which is one reason I want to say, for anyone who's like, oh, man, I'd love it if we could eat out once in a while. Why are we always eating at home? Whatever meager rations we have or whatever. Let me just tell you, your family is often preparing your food with love. And that vitamin L, I like to call it, makes a big difference when you go out to that restaurant. Sure, it's pleasant, plated beautifully, but you have no idea what happened, you know, behind the closed doors of the kitchen, Wouldn't it be better to have oversight over the quality, but also the investment of energy that's put into the food made at home? Like, people overlook that all the time. I'm sad to say that in some public schools now, for example, they ask the families, don't send any homemade treats in because we don't know what ingredients were put in there and there might be someone that has an allergy. And so it's reduced to whatever you buy at the grocery store with who knows how many preservatives and things. Oh, well. So this leads me to my next secret. I think I will just go ahead and say sustenance. It's sustenance. All the secrets start with the letter S, by the way, to help jog the memory. So we've got spirit and sustenance. Notice it's not just food. It's what sustains you. It's what nourishes you deeply. I invite people to become qualitarians, meaning look for the best value for your budget. Like, look for the food that's going to nourish you deeply. Okay, the potato chips or the ramen noodles are on sale at the little, you know, Piggly Wiggly down the street, if those still exist. But the thing is, you're getting nothing. That's just a mess of concocted in a lab to please the palate, but not really nourish your body. And for anyone who thinks they're weak willed, by the way, I just a little side note, there are some people who are like, oh gosh, I eat too many chips or I ate too many cookies. I don't know what I was doing. Your body was looking for nourishment. The reason you kept going is because the body's like, this hasn't filled me yet, it hasn't satisfied me yet. On a deep level, what you need is food that nourishes. And I like to. This is what I've learned from the Weston A. Price Foundation. I like to look for food that is especially rich in the fat soluble vitamins. Those are A, E, D and K. And these primarily come from animal products. So that means if not the meat itself, especially organ meats that are very high nutritionally, but also things like eggs and fish roe and you know, the cheese, the byproducts, the raw milk, the things that are still from the animal because these have these important and pivotal fat soluble vitamins. So yeah, become a qualitarian. That's what I like to say.

When, when we speak about, when you speak about sustenance and being satiated, one of the pieces that has, that I've found so intriguing in both animal products and vegetable products. Perhaps my, my very first experience with this was early on in my family's transition. I was still a teenager. We, we started caring about quality and we did the, we did the very simple and seeming quite elementary shift of changing canning peaches with sugar to canning peaches with maple syrup. And all of a sudden, that relatively innocuous shift, I mean, it's still a sugar source. You wouldn't think of it as being that significant. As a rapidly growing teenage boy, instead of wanting to down half a dozen peach halves, I was satisfied with two or three.

Interesting. Oh, my gosh, that's so interesting. So if I can insert here, this is exactly what Dr. Price found as well when he visited indigenous people all around the world. Again, this is where the Weston A. Price foundation got its name. When Dr. Price about in the 1930s, went around the world, he found that the healthiest people were those who were eating local, organic, seasonal, and traditional foods. To your point, John, maple syrup and honey, for example, are traditional sweeteners, and they're wonderful. But refined sugar, what we've kind of distilled down from sugar cane or what have you, is more addictive, and it leads to glucose spikes, and it literally ages you from the inside out. So when people are having joint pain, you know, they. I don't know what they're blaming, but they should really look to sugar as a main culprit. And at the time when Dr. Price noted all these things, I don't think people realized, or they were starting to realize, something's wrong in the U.S. we're all sick. And why are these people in other countries so healthy? Dr. Price got the. The National Geographic magazine, and he couldn't help but contrast the appearance, at least of these indigenous people. He said, they have these broad smiles and they have this good posture, and they look optimistic and fertile. And in the meantime, in his clinic in Ohio, he's like, man, we're really struggling over here. Even the children have a million cavities and crowded teeth. What's going on? And he found there was indeed a link between how they were nourished and how their health outcomes looked. So the people who are eating what I like to call the lost diet now, local, organic, seasonal, and traditional foods, foods were well and the same tribes members, sometimes relatives, that departed from those traditional ways of eating and started including more flour, refined sugar, and bad oils, they started to see a decline in their immediate health. And then their children would suffer consequences as well. They'd be born with more narrow faces, more crowding of the teeth, already compromised health before they even started. But the good news is this. He also found that when people returned to those traditional foods, the healthy fats like we're describing and the single ingredient foods, foods that our Grandparents would recognize as food things turned around again. So there was one family in particular that he mentioned in his book that the husband and wife had started eating all the displacing foods of modern Commerce, is what Dr. Price called them. So their health started to deteriorate. Their kids were born with strange deformations and things that wasn't good. And then they were like, okay, we're going to go back. And then the next subsequent children were, well, so I'm not saying it's going to happen as easily for us because we face a lot more toxicity than the people of Dr. Price's Day and multinationality that when we. Exactly. But when we nourish ourselves, well, we're giving our bodies and our children's bodies a fighting chance.

Yeah. My goodness. Again, Hilda, you've about three things that I want to respond to, but I think the, you know, there are. There's this foundational research. The, the. The two researchers whose work I wish were universally known and studied and taught would be Weston Price and Pottinger. Like, if. If people understood the implications of the research those two individuals did, we would.

Live in a very different world, 100%. And for those who don't know about the work of Pottinger. Yeah. He. You might know about it more than me. Than me, John, you. You go for it, and I'll. I'll add in a couple things.

Well, I would love to. I mean, people hear my voice all the time. I'd love to hear your perspective. But I think that study, what has, what. What made such a significant impression on me and also Eric Serolini's work more recently is the multigenerational effect of what happened to the parent generation, the second and third and fourth. Like, it's the spiritual concept of the sins of the fathers being visited on the third and the fourth generation.

100%. That's exactly right. I'm getting chills as you're describing it. It's true. So I think his most famous study was with cats. And the cats that were eating their healthy, traditional diet were, you know, well, and the next generation would have their beautiful little coats and teeth and claws and all the things cats need and so forth. They were fine. But those who were fed a substandard diet, probably less rich in fat and protein. Not only were the cats eating that diet suffering, but their offspring suffered. And then within, I think, the third or fourth generation, they were no longer fertile. And if this doesn't describe our day and age, I don't know what does.

Well, what is interesting and what I think should be interesting for all of us and this, this podcast, many of our listeners are growers and, and farmers. So the, the, the cats that were fed one of the poor quality diets was simply evaporated milk. So you start with milk, which is high quality, and then you turn it into a processed food of evaporated milk. And one of the things that I found so intriguing is that in, in the, these cats had access to the outdoors, to a sandy beach. Weeds then grew in from the manure that the, the cats left behind and the cast that were fed a healthy diet, greasy, vibrant, lush stand of weeds. The cats that were fed evaporated milk produced these thin, scrawny, stunted weeds. Even the weeds didn't want to grow. Well, and you think about what, how that is a reflection of our diet today and also to some degree of how our animals are fed and the impact that that will have on the resulting fertilizer.

Incredible. Incredible. And it's interesting, you said, you know, the weeds didn't want, even they didn't want to grow. But the thing is, they weren't given the building blocks. And so speaking of that, I do want to say One thing that Dr. Price noted everywhere he went around the world is that couples of the childbearing years were given what were considered the most nutrient rich and sacred foods, even sacred foods that they, the people knew would help ensure that their children could have children. And so couples in Kenya, for example, would get married in the spring when they knew that the pasture was the most lush, meaning that the cows would give the best high quality butter and so forth. And even in Ecuador, I think he said in his book that he noted, because he took copious notes, that people that lived in the highlands in Peru would come down to the coast to get eggs, fish eggs. And when he asked them, hey, why are you going to all this trouble? Because they would harvest them, they would dry them, they would take them back up to the mountains. And they said, because we want to have babies. And so they knew they would take in the best building blocks. And, and now a lot of young women are just, you know, popping prenatals and kind of hoping for the best. And I was in that boat too. But now I'm happy to say I've learned so much that I'm especially encouraging young women to get those, those proper building blocks in the body. What you want to do is build up your nutritional stores. Now, not once you find out you've conceived because you want to have the best environment for baby yeah, And I'm happy to say too, that I've started working with some supplement companies who have whole food supplements. You know, Birthright is the name, which is a perfect name for this one group that I work with because they help fill in the gaps for women who can't get a hold of fish roe or don't like oysters or what have you. It's like, let's give the body what it needs to build those healthy babies. I love it so much. So this is where I want to say I'm not snubbing modernity. Like, there are some times where we need it. Right. Like, I think it's good to go to an allopathic doctor if you have an emergency, but if you can do your best to stay out of the hospital, you know, that's again, my end goal. And not just that, actually, I want everyone to thrive and not just survive. And that's why I've joined hands with the Weston A. Price Foundation. I've joined hands with so many allies like you. Like, let's help all of us because it can be a win, win, win, win, win. Right. Like Alan Savory says, holistic management, something that's good for my animals and my land is going to be good for me, good for the community and so on.

Something that you said about the Ecuador experience and how they went down, there's a very key phrase, we want our babies to be able to have babies. And this I was so intrigued by the. By Eric Serlini's work on the third and fourth generation consequences of the initial parent generation of mice being fed a diet that contained a trace measured amounts of glyphosate. And I don't think I've started in, in presentations when I'm describing this concept to people making it, to make it very real, to describe how if you are sitting beside a lady, you are sitting beside five generations of women. And so, yeah, I'd love to get you.

Oh my gosh, I love that so much. That's right. You know, one thing I, I think of a lot is people consider in their lifetime, most people think about what are my children going to inherit? Like, I want to invest in generational wealth. I want to have it so that my kids and my kids, kids will be set for life. I think it's more important to invest in generational health. Generational health. And I'll begin with this.

Health is the ultimate wealth.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think there's some African proverb along those lines. Yeah, absolutely. Health is the first wealth. Like if you don't have that. That's why people say, if you don't have your health, you don't have anything, which my pastor corrected me on, but that's another story. He's like, hilda, even a person sick in bed can pray. And he's absolutely right. But wouldn't it be good if they could pray and then do, like, do not just pray for a neighbor, but go and visit them? I'm sure they would say so. I really am convinced, and I'm not trying to preach now, John, but, you know, I think Satan wants us sick and sidelined, and I just am tired of it. I'm tired of it. I think people are living only in that kind of surviving level, and I'm tired of it. So that's why I do want to emphasize, like, how do we invest in generational health? Well, it really does start with your. Starting with yourself, because that's the only person you have control over. Teenagers, they can buy some candy, hide it in the cabinet. You know, your husband, who knows what he's doing when he goes off to work. And I don't mean that in a weird way, but what I'm trying to get at is start with you. And here's why. Because more is caught than taught. Here's an example in my own household. So, like I said, I've been doing this podcast for the Wesley Price foundation for, like, 10 years now. I'm a health coach certified by the Institute of Integrative Nutrition. I'm not trying to give all my bonafides, but there are a bunch, okay? My husband wouldn't. He just wouldn't listen to me. End of a long day at work, he would come home. Gosh, I hope he doesn't listen to this podcast. But anyway, he knows the story, too, though. He would come home, he would watch tv, you know, he gained all this weight, he was struggling, blah, blah, blah. And of course, here I am. Here I am, you know, doing all the things. I don't just talk about them, I do them. So I'm getting my morning sun. I'm, you know, walking. I'm. Motion is lotion. I'm eating nourishing foods. Of course, I was feeding him the foods. But the point is, eventually, you know, he heard a podcast. He's like, oh, they said sitting is the new smoking. And I'm like, hello. I've been saying that for so long. Why are you listening to Gary Breca? You know? But anyway, then I realized that it's okay, because now, you know, he is on the Same page as me. And it's really because he took his health in his own hands. I could have nagged him. I could have told him a million times, listen to the show. Listen to the show. He had to make that decision for himself. So whether it's a mom listening right now or a man listening, it doesn't matter who you are. Take your health into your own hands, and generational health starts with you. What choices are you making? Because. And you might say, okay, he heard Gary Brca. And that's what shifted. I think it was actually the osmosis effect. Like, people around me are kind of drawn to the choices I'm making. And the same goes if I was smoking, people around me might start smoking because we impact each other, right? What do they say? You're the sum of the five people you hang around the most. So you're going to have a ripple effect even if you don't say a word. So I say, you know, start at home, invest in generational health, because it really matters. Again, whether you're a man or a woman.

I think it's surprising how much we influence the people around us and how much the people around us influence us. We may not tend to think of it very often, but I have perhaps a bit of an outlier perspective on this because I come from a very different culture than the mainstream, and I just returned home from a conference, and we had a large number of side conversation, and some of the side conversations were around the current political situation, and people are very passionate and very outspoken, and you wouldn't. Well, I found myself just marveling at the number of times people would apologize to me for swearing. To the point where I asked the people, I said, why are you apologizing to me? I. I didn't say a word. There's. But there is something about my presence that they felt guilty about swearing in my presence and just coming from a different cultural background. And so that's just. That's a very trivial example in some ways. But still, it's interesting the degree to which we influence each other on a subconscious level.

It is interesting. And you don't know how many people say to me, like, how can I get my husband on board? How can I get my husband on board? You know, moms who are trying to live within a budget. And he's like, wait, you're going organic? And I'm like, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen because it happened to me. Well, I mean, actually, I can't guarantee that it's gonna happen. But even if he does not, you only have control over so much. Do you know that Navy SEALs actually are told to be responsible only for their six foot perimeter? And somehow they execute the most amazing missions because they're responsible for themselves and just their immediate vicinity, you know, so, moms, do your best to avoid having, you know, really valueless snacks in the cupboard. You know, make what my friend Corey Dunn calls simple swaps. You know, instead of buying tortilla chips, you can make them. You know, anything you buy, you can make. I didn't know this years ago. I literally thought, can a can of soup. I mean, was how soup came. Like, I didn't. This was a bunch of years ago now. But so anyway, make whatever changes you can make now. So that covers two of my six ancestral secrets. Do you want to hear a few more?

Well, first I want to hear your perspective on sitting beside five generations of women. I think there are many people who may not understand the implications of that. And what is the. What's the biology behind that concept?

Oh, okay. Very good, Very good. Yeah, thanks for bringing us back to that. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful image and very true. So apparently when little baby girl is born, she already has all of the eggs for future generations in her womb, so. And so the possibility, the potential for all the future is right there in this little baby girl in your arms. You know, a day old, it doesn't matter. She has all the eggs she's ever going to have. So that means that her children and her children's children, all that will come from her is right here and now. Oh, my gosh. And this leads me to the other coolest story I have. So I have many others. But anyway, when I was in Ecuador one time, I was talking to these Kichwa men and I said, you know, I love to say, for good health today, look to the past. And they were like, we don't know what you're talking about. And I was like, what do you mean? And they said, I promise you, this is what they said. They said, we don't have that sense of time in our culture. They said, we don't have past. You know, we don't look to our ancestors because back to our ancestors, because we believe that they're with us right here and now. And I was like, I was shocked. And it made sense to me because I think God is over time, you know, and so I thought, well, maybe those who went before us, and the Bible says we're surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. So who knows, but it kind of blew my mind. I think we would live with much more intention to the land, to the animals, but also to the people and maybe to ourselves, if we were aware of how supported and cheered on we are by those who have gone before and who knows, maybe those who are yet to come.

That's very beautiful. Thank you. And just the. Where I thought you were going with this is the multi generational effects that we are also the product of. You know, when you have this baby girl that is born with all of the eggs, that her children and her grandchildren will come from you, a different. One way of thinking about that is to say that all of the epigenetic patterns have already been set. And here in our Amish community, you know, the Amish tend to be quite traditional and slow to change in. In some ways, very rapid to change in other ways. In. In this particular community that I grew up in, during, as you know, during the 60s and 70s, doctors recommended smoking, or perhaps it was earlier than that. I forget the exact timeline, but as time has gone on, we've recognized the challenges of smoking. But in the meantime, smoking became deeply embedded within the culture as a cultural tradition. And so as the new information about the health hazards of smoking were revealed, there was a certain element of the community that developed fairly strong feelings in opposition to smoking, that in the context of keeping our body pure, keeping our temple pure for the Holy Spirit, that this is not an activity that we should engage in. And people would say things like, well, my grandfather smoked and drank and lived until he was 90 and he was perfectly healthy. And the. What they, they failed to realize is that our grandparents are. They're not a reflection of just alone of the environment that they grew up in. This. This previous generation that had this tremendous health resilience. They're not just a reflection of the environment they grew up in, they're a reflection of their grandmother's environment. So their epigenetic patterns that gave them the resilience to live vibrantly and happily and healthily until 90, even though they smoked the last 50 years of their life, that's not the environment that our epigenetic patterns were set in.

Yes. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for bringing that up. That's such a good point. Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of our ancestors had more resilience, more strength, more energy. I don't remember. I mean, of course we weren't around back then, but you don't read much about people historically being depressed or anxious or overwhelmed. That's even become a verb now. You know, or I mean a noun. People now are just like overwhelmed. It's a thing, you know, I'm like, where is this coming from? But we face a lot more toxins now. We, we can't manage what they managed. I don't believe so. We are standing on the shoulders of giants. But we also need to be aware of exactly what you said, that for example, when people seem to smoke or drink to impunity, they had a stronger health foundation than we do today. We're a lot more shaky in part because of some things that I think maybe your community isn't even exposed to. I think vaccines are a big issue because here's this little perfect baby coming into the world and we think it's deficient in some way and that it needs to be injected with many different. Whether viruses, if you think those are a thing, or you know, with adjuvants to help, you know, make them resist disease. It just, it, it kind of defies common sense. And so I think that's kind of debilitated us. Has it protected us perhaps from some things? Yeah, maybe people aren't getting the measles as much or this or that, but the long term health outcomes are very troubling.

There's also the question of who do you trust to be the authority? Who do you place your confidence in? Do you place your confidence in a higher authority and your own observations and experience? And what degree of trust do you place in authority figures? And the COVID example is an interesting one. Like our community, one of the benefits of the Amish community, sometimes I think it's not. Not a benefit so much, but I'm in a community here with 160 church districts. I'm not sure exactly how many people that translates to, but several hundred per church district at a minimum. And you're practically, you're one at most two degrees of separation away from everyone else. Like everyone knows everyone else by reputation or by story, if not in person. And so in a community that's that closely connected, but still a reasonable population size, we, the entire community knows exactly who died, what the funerals were, what the causes were. And so during the COVID era, we looked at. I'm a bit fuzzy now on the exact time period, but I want to say it was like an 18 month period. There were 83 deaths in the community and someone went to the trouble of documenting every death. And there were two out of the 83 that were called Covid. One had significant comorbidities and the other one was known to not be Covid, even though it was called that on the death certificate. And so the, the entire community. Well, to let me go back to my one thought on, on authority figures, like early on, in the early days, the community, there were a lot of unknowns. There were things we didn't know. How significant is this really going to be? We did still continue church services, but we were very cautious. We maintained social distancing. We did all of these things that lasted for about a month. I think the, the second time there was this, this two week lockdown and social distancing. And then there was a second one. And when the third announcement was made, they were going to extend it. It was game over. And what was interesting is that the, the Amish community is a significant economic, significant enough economic force in. Businesses. In spite of governmental pressure from both the federal government and the state government. The only business that succeeded in enforcing masking inside their doors was the bank. Grocery stores. Multiple stories of, of people doing their grocery store shopping, having a full grocery cart, walking up to the checkout counter. And they would refuse to check them out because they were not wearing a ma. They would walk, they would abandon the entire grocery store, entire grocery cart that broke the backs of the retail stores in hours. The, the NOMA, the must be masked policy. Less than 24 hours in every business in the community. And guess what? Our health outcomes, not just of the Amish community, but of the English community surrounding them was better than the community at large. Wow.

And it also goes to show, like what did someone tell me recently? Did you know that the word mandate still implies in its actual definition that you choose to do it? In other words, it doesn't mean it's a law handed down from God. It is something that still requires consent on some level. So why so many people submitted to those mandates? If we as individuals had all resisted those of us who especially felt strongly about it, we could have turned the tide where we live too.

It took a surprisingly small number. And I mentioned the bank. Like people had a requirement to deal with the bank. But what happened is there was such strong opposition to being masked indoors for a whole number of social reasons. You did not have to wear a mask to use the outdoor teller window. And so there would this be, this, this one significant bank. They had like eight indoor windows and they, on a Friday afternoon, a Saturday, they would all be jammed and there would be a long line. And now they have two teller windows that are exterior and you have a line of men that is 500 yards long waiting to use the bank Because. And they refuse to go into the doors wearing a mask.

Wow. Oh my gosh, that makes me exaggerate.

100 yards is not an exaggeration.

But your point is so good, John. Yes. Sovereignty, autonomy, we are children of God. We have to answer to him first. You know, so it's like, why are we doing something that goes against our, our most. Well, I would say our humanity. I just, I felt like I can't walk down the street with a mask. I just knew it. I just, it didn't matter to me if I was I even. What I mean by this, what I'm trying to communicate is this. I was willing to get sick if, if it was as contagious as they were saying, which I, of course, I don't believe now in any way, shape or form, but I was willing because I thought, I don't want to mask who I am. Like, God has given me this face. When someone has their mouth and nose covered, that's usually for bank robbers and thieves and, and shady people. And no wonder, you know, I would look at people and I thought, are they mad at me? Are they scared? I couldn't tell because all I could see was their eyes. You know, mostly I think they were scared. They were scared I was going to make them sick. But I just, I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. I just knew. And so, yeah, this is a call now when it comes to health, to know that the government and even medical professionals don't always, and this is putting it mildly, but they don't always have your best interest at heart. Sometimes they're just going by the book. There are good hearted people, but they're like, you know what, it says that if you have this issue, you need this surgery, but you shouldn't just take it as your diagnosis from them, as your destiny or their recommendation. Their prescription is definitely what you need to do. There are so many natural ways to heal. And that's what I was saying earlier. Given half a chance, the body will be able to fight disease. And not just that, your body will be able to thrive, but we do need to give it the right building blocks. Starting with, as we said, things of the spirit, right? And then sustenance, the food that we take in. But I also want to say, just to get to point number three here about these secrets, is the sun. The sun is actually providing nourishment. I did not know this for years. I was a health coach and a fitness professional and I hardly spent any time outside. Not because I was Avoiding the outdoors, but at my job, just had me and my kids and I was running around inside anyway. But now I know that the sun offers so much to us. The spectrum of light and the early morning hours, for example, can give you a burst of cortisol. Who needs a cup of coffee when you're getting the early morning sun? And a lot of you farmers know what I'm talking about because you're out before daybreak, so you have that opportunity to get that early morning sun. It is good for your metabolism. It informs your hormonal function. It helps your body know when to release melatonin so you can sleep better at night, you know, so all these things get set into motion in the early morning. You get this information comes into your eyes and it goes to the brain, to a place called the suprachiasmatic nucleus. And then it informs every cell in the body and every clock in every cell what time of day it is. So your body knows immediately when to be alert, when to get things activated. And then in the middle of the day, you get more of the UVA and UVB rays that are great for synthesizing vitamin D, you know. And of course, what does the government tell us? Oh, you might get skin cancer, cover up or don't go outside in the middle of the day. No, what God has given us is good. I'm all about getting that midday sun. And then when you get the sunset sun, there's no UVA or UV in the spectrum, but there are healing wavelengths that can protect you from burn and also in the morning, too. So it's like all part of God's design, but we think we can override it. You know, shortcuts, get a insta tan. Tan in a can, you know, so we can look good. You know, crazy things that hopefully the Amish don't do. But, you know, it's just tough to. There's all these ways that we think we can kind of get the sun's energy but without actually getting the sun and the light we've invented. I'm happy that the Amish are wary of this, too. Just has a very narrow spectrum of light. And that narrow spectrum confuses our body about what time of day it is. Makes us think it's midday instead of midnight. And a lot of people are troubled with their sleep, but also struggling with depression and anxiety because their circadian rhythm is off.

You know, Hilda, you and I could have a conversation for an hour about this topic alone, because I read this fascinating. Fifteen years ago, I read John Ott's work. Yeah, just incredible on the, the influence of, of light on our metabolism. And then I read the history of these solariums. The, the, the, the solar cure of high altitude people being in the Swiss Alps and these being exposed to ultraviolet spectrum. And then there, of course there is the work. There's another fascinating book that I read more recently. Melanin. Is it the master molecule or the magical molecule? I forget exactly. But describing essentially how melanin is to the human body to a degree what chlorophyll is the plant like we actually have, we are photosynthesizers in a certain way. We are collecting, our bodies are actively collecting energy from the sun. And, and then your, your points about. I'll just call it synthetic light. You know, within, within our Amish community here we actually have a very, some very interesting case history across an entire population. Our lighting up until I'm going to give a timeline of let's say roughly a decade ago, 10, 12 years ago, our lighting was almost exclusively from, from gas lanterns and gas lamps, which is full spectrum lighting. And then there were some, some significant episodes of gas lamps exploding. There was one family with seven children that, five children were hospitalized and badly burned. And that was kind of a catalyst for the majority of the community in a fairly rapid time frame, transitioning into battery lights using Milwaukee and Dewalt tool batteries and so forth and using LED lighting and the local. What's the name for an eye doctor?

Optometrist.

Yeah. They saw an immediate dramatic surge in eye problems and vision health challenges across the Amish community. To the point like they saw a 40 surge in business in like a 12 month period. And they said what happened? What changed? Oh, the Amish community started using white and blue spectrum LED lighting as their primary source of lighting.

Oh my goodness. Yes. What a striking example. So what happened next?

Well, what happens next is as, as you know, there are all of these other challenges of now compromised endocrine systems and compromised circadian rhythms and melatonin production like these, these blue lights are having kind of insidious health, chronic health effects that people don't notice because they are so gradual.

No 100% and I think it was a study done by, in Harvard actually that said they even knew that the headlights on cars, a lot of them are LED now and they're exceptionally bright and you can hardly drive by them because they just, they irritate the eyes. And not only the headlights but also a lot of lights in big cities at night are disturbing people's sleep and Health. But the conclusion on that study, if I'm not mistaken, I'll have to go back and look at my friend's book again that he wrote a book called the Hibernation Diet, which is fabulous. But in it he said that the conclusion of the authors was that we're not going to really tell the public much about this because they don't want to change their habits, acting like parents. But again, here. Okay, we need to take our health into our own hands. I'm hoping that community went back to some of the. The gas lanterns and so forth, because it's. All of these modern conveniences are. Are not really doing us any health favors, for sure.

Well, the gas lanterns had their. They have their own challenges from an oxygen depletion perspective and things and so forth. So what we're actually doing in our house, it's an active project, ongoing right at this moment is we're replacing all the leds with going back to incandescents that have large filaments so that we reduce the flicker and make them. We're deliberately selecting not just your typical incandescent, but deliberately selecting full spectrum incandescent bulbs.

Wonderful. Oh my gosh, that makes me so happy. And those are available now. I heard of a company, I think it's called Chromalux Chrome is what we're installing. Yeah, those are amazing. It's as close to the sunlight as you can get. It is at full spectrum because you're right, even incandescent. So sometimes it's like. Yeah, the body knows. It knows the difference. And so I just want to say also to the farmers out there, as you said, they're a big chunk of your listening audience. Did you know that? In essence, along the lines of what you were saying, John, we are light eaters. Not only do our bodies take. Aren't. Not only is our skin like a solar panel, basically, but so is the produce. It's getting the light. And then we eat that, you know, so are the livestock. They're getting the light and we're eating them. Like we are taking in all of the light information from our environment and from what we consume. It's so fascinating. So apparently one third of our mitochondrial energy is from food and two thirds is from the sun. So we can get it secondhand from what we eat, but we definitely should get it firsthand too. And so if there are people whose jobs don't include tending the land or getting outside enough, like I would say, you know, get that early morning spectrum of light I get outside, I'm outside like 30 to 45 minutes every morning. And then I try to take sun breaks throughout the day and to get the sunset light as well. And I'm actually keeping track because a friend of mine started this program called A Thousand Hours Outside to challenge people who are living this modern lifestyle to get out more. It averages to about three hours a day or so. And so I color in little squares on this little coloring sheet every day. And I'm just trying to see like, can I make it to a thousand? Because I think my body will know and appreciate that. Direct contact with the sun. Well, not direct contact, but you know what I mean.

When you speak about us getting our mitochondrial energy from the sun, you know, just, you remind and this. The. The quality of light that we are exposed to and the quality of light that is coming through our food. You remind me of us of a story. I think it may. We may actually have discussed it here in the podcast with. With one of my close friends, Bob Jones from Chef's Garden, where they are experimenting with. With various wavelength frequency on various wavelengths of light, but also various light timings for how they're growing very high quality greens. And so they've. They have demonstrated that they can take basil plants who are the exact same variety, exact same genetics, and they can make it taste very sweet or very spicy based on the light spectrum that they can completely change the flavor profile of the plant based on the light spectrum that it's exposed to.

That's so crazy.

Yeah, that is real. But, you know, I have a question for you on your success. Is one of them social?

No, I'm only laughing because that'd be cute. But no, it is actually spirit. I consider community part of that. So like doing things that really nourish your soul, you know, and so that's, that's where community and social comes in.

Okay, this is important. And I wanted to not lose sight of this because I think many people have really puzzled about the Amish community's response to Covid. And I wanted to go back to that conversation before I lost that thread. And that is at the like, early on, the. The community generally took the precautionary principle. We don't. We don't think this is what the authority figures are saying it is, but we don't know. We could be mistaken. This could be. But a lot of people at that point had already been quite sick in late December and early January. And it was something unusual. People had lost their taste. And so there was a general perspective that we'd already experienced Some of it. But then at the four week mark, and certainly there was not universal alignment within the community on this, I mean, after all, we're all people of free choice. But at the four week mark, where there's generally this general prevailing sentiment that this is not a cart, we are signing up to be a part of a large. The kind of, the primary basis for that was that we considered the social fabric, the community, the family relationships to be more important. Even if there was a certain death toll, even if we lost members of the community who were immunocompromised, we were not. That cost was less than the cost of the social fabric. That is the cost we were willing to bear.

Oh, I love it so much. And that's what I was trying to say earlier when I was saying I didn't care if I was going to get something, I remember telling my pastor, actually, or asking him, I said, what if the hallmark of the church at this time, and this was very early in the COVID time, but I said, what if the hallmark was that we would shake hands, that we would hug people? He didn't like this idea, but I, I thought it made sense because Jesus touched the lepers after all. He was probably cognizant of that same thing, how important it is for us to have that connection. I think more people probably died of loneliness and neglect during COVID than from whatever sickness was out there. And, you know, and this takes me back to one of my first encounters with a someone of a different tribe. So I got to go to Kenya in 2015 for the Wes Naprice foundation and I met an elder and a Masai tribe. Ole Sanku. Ole Sanku. And he was like 100 years old, John. He was like so old, he didn't even know how old he was. And I'm only ballparking it because they don't always keep track in these tribes. But anyway, so I grabbed my cell phone, I did have this phone at the time, and I thought, let me just record this conversation because I'm sure it's going to be amazing and maybe when I get back I'll tell Sally she should have a podcast for the Weston Price Foundation. Anyway, the long and the short of it is I asked this man, what did you eat as a child? What did you do when you got sick? You know, what do you think's going on now? And. And he said, what did we eat as a child? Well, whatever we could catch, he said, because they would just. Though they're nomadic people and they have their cattle and Their goats, they also hunt for, you know, they have the cattle and the goats for their meat. I mean, yeah, their meat, but also their milk and their blood. And they would hunt for other animals. And then he said, when I said, what did you do when you got sick? He said, we never got sick. And I was like, I couldn't believe it. He was the first person I encountered, though he was not the last, by the way, to say that we never got sick. He said if we ever felt a shiver coming on, he said we would drink milk from the cow. And he demonstrated drinking it straight from the udder. But then, more to your point, he did say things like, well, you know, now they tell us a sickness is coming and we all have to get shots. He said, but we didn't have shots. And now they tell me my grandchildren have to wear jackets, but we didn't have jackets, you know. So he sensed that what they were being told wasn't necessarily, you know. Right. And it wasn't. Definitely wasn't holding to their traditions. And when I said to him, what has changed the outlook? And he said, education. So talk about outsourcing too. When you outsource your education, you're putting the little minds into the hands of someone that you may not know what their objective is. So something to think about.

Another aspect of not being willing to lose the social fabric, I think is related to our spiritual relationship with death and with transition and the realization or kind of the. On some level, this is certainly an individual understanding, although it can prevail within a community, but the recognition that death is not the end. Death is a transition. And when you fully embrace and believe that, then you develop a different relationship with death and the death of. Of perhaps a certain proportion of community members to maintain the was perceived to be vital social fabric is a cost that appears very different than it might be to someone who appear. Who believes death to be an ending.

Good point. And that takes us back to your question near the top. How has modern agriculture or conventional industrial. How has that model lost its way? In part it's the feeling, I think, and the thought that death is the end and death is wrong. But how can I put this? For anything to live, something has to die. You know, that's the natural order of things. But in our sterilized conventional system, nobody has to touch death anymore or hardly some big processing plant does. Maybe there are five that manage most of the meat in the US I understand. Or three even. It's so crazy. So I'm so removed personally from death as A consumer that I think, oh, death is wrong, death is sad. Maybe I'll even go vegan because death is the worst thing that could happen. No, no, it's not the worst thing that can happen. But because I'm so removed from it, I don't understand it anymore.

Very well said. We're having this wonderful conversation. I know that you have other things that you want to. Pretty far.

Just a few. Just a few. And I. I do. I don't want to keep people on here forever, but I'll share quickly just three other secrets. So we've done sun, sustenance and spirit. The next two I will share are sleep, which I alluded to. When you get the right light information, your body knows when to wind down again. An advantage your community has over most that once the sun goes down where whether I've been in Ethiopia, Mongolia, I've traveled the world. Indigenous people groups don't have artificial inputs for light. So that means their body is getting the right signal to wind down. They might have a fire, you know, but that's about it. And that emits the right spectrum of light. That doesn't keep your cortisol levels jacked. So what I do to honor my sleep, I get up early. Obviously I'm on that getting early up train. But I also at night do my best to get off of sleep screens. You know, for most of us, it's very tempting to unwind watching something, but you know, watch your grandson play jacks, like whatever it is, you know, whittle some wood, read a book, do. There's so many ways that we can be engaged as we start to wind down and our body will be grateful. I think one reason people are very stressed and anxious is because they're on call 24 7. So honor your sleep. Get a good amount. It's really nature's simple detoxing system. It's better than any green smoothie. You don't have to do all these fancy cleanses. In my estimation. You know, people go overboard with kind of hacks and shortcuts to clean out the body. But the body is literally like taking out the trash while you sleep. If you honor that rhythm. And I've seen this around the world too. Also, people sleep together. Talk about community. You know what I've noticed in Ethiopia, I have very vivid memories of seeing the tribal huts and how they would have a very thin fur skin on the ground. So they're grounding, they're together, they're in a darkness. Like there's lots of things we can do to enhance our sleep. So that's another of the secrets. And then the last two. And again, this is not in the normal order, but one is shivers, which might sound funny coming from a Latina. My dad's from Cuba, My mom's from Mexico. I love warm weather. But apparently when you experience the environment, your body has to work a little more. And this won't be a surprise to any farmer or grower out there who knows, they have to put on a little jacket and they're still going to be cold when they're doing their chores in the morning. That's actually really good for you. They say that our mitochondria get kind of a workout. These little engines in our cells that give us energy and make energy get a workout when they have to keep the body warm. But we're always, you know, in most of our modern homes, you know, we heat them to 70 something in the winter and we cool them to 70 something in the summer. And so our bodies never have to work. And so they become. The mitochondria become weak and they. They also can get lesser in number. So when you challenge yourself by maybe going outside with one less layer, you're kind of stimulating the mitochondria so that they can repopulate and be stronger. So this has been much to my surprise, I've learned to embrace the cold as a tool for staying strong and healthy in my toolbox.

Those are some of your most vibrant social posts, by the way.

They are. I'm like, how did I holistic held? Of all people, this Latina, like I said, get associated with the cold as the queen of ice. So I do. I get in plunges when I come. Natural bodies of water are beautiful. And just doing what I call my shiver walk, this morning I was out in shorts and a T shirt. It was like 50 some degrees. And that's not too cold, which is fine. It's just cold enough to kind of stimulate some things, you know. And then the only other thing we haven't really mentioned much is strength. So I love that. I think it's really important. What I love about a lot of farming communities and growers is that, you know, moving bays of hail, hails of bay, and, you know, doing different chores are going to kind of be your workout. That's great. I think my friend Mike Dixon calls it God's gym. You know, the farm is God's gym. That's awesome. So others of us have to be more intentional, but we do have to treat our bodies with respect. When I was In Ecuador, I was with a healer and a. She was a midwife actually. And she kept saying to me over and over again as we talked about different experiences she'd had, nuestro cuerpo estagrado. Nuestro cuerpo est Agrado. She was saying, our body is holy. And truly, if we believe that our body is a gift from God, you know, and it's we are fearfully and wonderfully made, then we need to treat it with the respect it deserves. I think most people aren't cognizant of that. That's why they're like, whatever, down the hatch to fill my belly and let's move on. But it's like, no, your body is a beautiful gift from God and it's a temple of the Holy Spirit, so why not treat it as such so that it can last as long and be as strong as possible.

I think it's worth perhaps digging into this strength conversation a little bit more because there certainly are, there's still a great deal of very physical farm work and farm labor, but there is also depending on the crops, the setting and the context, there are many farming operations that you can now run from a seat, the seat of a skid steer, the seat of a tractor, the seat of a combine, the seat of a sprayer, etc, and so there are many farming professions that have become more machine operator than they are engaged in physical exercise. And I, I read two papers in the last year or two. Well, it would be more accurate to say that I read the abstract and the summaries than actually papers themselves. But I was intrigued by the implications and the way they overlapped. I think Gary Bricka might have been speaking about the one of them that the longevity is associated with, particularly with strength in the thighs, strength in the upper legs. And then there was this other paper coming from a completely different perspective. They were also looking at longevity relative to types of exercise. And they said that it was any type of exercise that was related to, I'll just call it a tennis stroke. So playing those types of ball games and moving a ball back and forth. So it was across all categories, pickleball, tennis, ping pong even, it could even be ping pong. That that particular group of exercises extended average life expectancy by 10.1 years. The next closest contender was like 5 or 6 years type of exercise. And when you think about it, they approach it from a different perspective, but they arrive at the same answer because those types of ball games, you get significant upper leg workout, you get a whole body workout for that matter, but significantly upper legs as well.

Oh my gosh, that's so cool. I hadn't thought about that before.

Yeah.

You know, my father is 93 and he has played ping pong for decades. He has played ping pong for decades, no doubt. And he is doing so well. You know, people think old age means I'm going to be, you know, confined to a wheelchair, have to use a walker. That doesn't have to be people's destiny. Motion is definitely lotion. I love this. And so I take it very seriously. I do resistance training also. The other thing my dad does is he, he just hangs from a pull up bar and he'll also do some pull ups and even sometimes when he's feeling motivated, he'll do like a flip. I'm like, you're how old and you're doing these things? It's so inspiring. But apparently your grip strength and your ability to hang on is also associated with longevity. So if it's not a part of someone's daily routine, I would say start small. Start with walking. And I say small. But it's actually obviously an ancient form of exercise that's been done since the beginning of time. And so like just move those legs. And then because I tend to think of our physical fitness level as like language, they always say use it or lose it. Like I used to be a translator and so I would translate Spanish and French documents into English. And now my French is only come see, come. It's only so. So because I, I'm not using it, so I'm losing it. And so the same goes with movement. Like if you want to be strong and agile and the mom on the sliding board, you know, the grandmom that can, can do a little race on the beach, like, then you need to invest in that generational health today by moving.

Well, why would you guess that the, the paper that was on the value the longevity benefits of upper thigh strength were not just increased mobility. The I think you will love this. They said the reason, it gave people a reason to keep going because they were able to maintain their social life, they were able to maintain community, they were mobile, they could move, they could get around. They weren't restricted to wheelchairs and walkers and everything else. And that that increased level of engagement with family and friends and community is what gave them the spirit to keep going and to live a longer, healthier life.

Look how we circle back to the top with spirit. I love that so much. And I will tell you, you know, yeah, I mean, what good is It. I think of that verse in the Bible. It says, you know, what good is it to gain the whole world if you lose your soul? Like, the spirit piece is the most important. All right, John Kemp, I'm going to turn that to number one in my six ancestral secrets. Really, what good is it? Even the Bible says, like, you know better a crumb and that peaceful home. This is a paraphrase, but you know, than to be having a banquet with a contentious person like this spirit of. Of everything you do matters. So we need to reconnect with who we are and whose we are for a healthier, happier and longer life.

Hilda, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I feel like I speak more than I normally do, and I would have wished to we could have so many more additional conversations, and perhaps we will at some point in the future. But I wanted to say thank you. Thank you for all the work that you're doing in the world and thank you for this very wonderful conversation. Where should people go to learn more about you and your work?

Wonderful question. So I make the Wise Traditions podcast so they can always listen every week. It posts on all the different platforms. I'm also holistichilda on Instagram. I've got a holistichilda.com website where I have some resources, and holistichilda on YouTube where I do kind of supplemental interviews and adventures.

Thank you very much.

It's been my pleasure, John. Thanks for having me.

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