Episode 95: Regenerative Innovation on a Large-Scale Dairy With Austin Allred

Hi friends, this is John and this is the Regenerative Agriculture podcast where we talk about agronomic science and cultural management practices and all the fun pieces that are needed for us to really regenerate plant health and soil health and ultimately of course, human health. On this episode, I'm really excited to be having a conversation with Austin Allred. Austin has several stories that I've found really intriguing. When I first met him at a conference some time ago. Austin, thank you for being here. Thank you for being willing to share and, and I'm not going to even attempt to introduce your background and some of the fascinating things that you've done. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the context of your farming operation and what your journey has been like for the last couple of decades.

Thanks John. I'm excited to be here. I've used a lot of your past visitors as inspiration for a lot of the stuff we're doing in our regenerative endeavors. But a little background. We are in the Columbia Basin of Washington State, which is sitting right in the middle of the state. It's one of the really fertile areas and we have what we call the Columbia Basin Project, which is Grand Coulee Dam and an irrigation system that really supports our high desert. We get 8 inches of rain, rain, total, total rainfall a year. So we're nothing without that project. But we are very robust and incredible agriculture area, diversified agriculture area with that excess of water. So my, my parents started farming Geesh, 50, 50 years ago in this area. My grandparents actually started before that and they were the first generation here. That's when the project came in. So based on a GI bill, if you're a veteran, you could come in, get put in a drawing and get your land. So they both got some land about 20 miles away from where my parents started. And my dad started first and foremost as a potato farmer. And then as apples have flooded this region in the early 2000s, late 90s, and so he started putting apples in the corner of his irrigation pivots just to kind of keep the soil active and be able to irrigate so it didn't blow away. And then as I graduated school, so about 15 years ago was when we really, I mean not that before we didn't, but 15 years ago is when we really decided like we need to become self sufficient, we need to reduce our dependency on the synthetic fertilizers and the stuff that we don't really have a stable pulse on. And that's when we decided we needed ruminants we needed cattle. And so that started the Royal Dairy Farm, and I started that piece. My brother does the potatoes. I got another brother doing the apples. And we all work together to try to symbiotically flow through. And that's really what we'll be talking about a lot today is those regenerative practices that we've tried to put together between this diverse farm in order to do it sustainably and independently of a lot of the synthetics that we want to have a better pulse on.

This is such an interesting perspective because I can't think of a single other operation that I know of, and I know of many who have high value fruit or vegetable crops and a dairy like those are. Two are commonly considered somewhat mutually exclusive. And many times when I have conversations with growers about the value that livestock could bring to their operation, it's the common refrain is that, well, it's too difficult to lift from a labor perspective, from all types of. From a management perspective. There are too many other priorities that get center stage, and livestock are just not a fit. What has that been like for your operation? How was the lift and what was needed to bring livestock into the operation and turn them into a success?

Yeah, I mean, that's the beauty of a big family. And my dad had a lot of kids, and so we are. We all pretty much have our lane. So it was a huge lift for me. But they kind of just kept doing business as usual as I started the dairy farm. And now we do a ton of beef and high density grazing for our beef cattle. And so it was very difficult for me. But as. As I've developed that, then we've developed together.

Austin, can you give us a bit of a sense of the scale that you're operating on?

Yeah. So the potato portion, which I say the potato portion, but in reality it's majority grass, alfalfa, a little bit of corn for the cattle, because the rotation is like potatoes once every five years. So the potato portion is about 15,000 acres of irrigated ground. And so of that, every year, there's 3,500 acres of potatoes. The rest of it is rotating crops for the cattle. We milk about 10,000 cows, and we have about 8,000 now beef on dairy crosses that were rotating in those pasture grounds.

So when you consider making the shift in incorporating the livestock into the operation 15 years ago, how. How successful were you in removing the need for fertilizers, and how did that influence the whole rest of your operation? How did the rest of your operation evolve as a result of that decision.

10, 15 years ago was our real intentional shift to trying to be more regenerative and trying to be more independent. And it has made a huge impact on our focus to where today our focus really is we take care of soil, we take care of cattle, we take care of worms, and naturally we get high quality produce, high quality fruit and high quality proteins. And that's all evolved in the last 10 years. And we really do try to keep that as our mindset. Our byproducts are what we're selling. Our focus is healthy natural animals and soil. And so as we, as we went towards that and the, the obvious, the manure and the, the massive flexibility that we have because of all these ruminants that we're feeding on our cover crops in our cocktail, you know, strategies when we're making cover crops is just wide open because again, the vast majority of our growing is growing for our, our protein production. It's growing to feed healthy cattle. So it's just, it's done so much for our advancement in these regenerative practices. So to answer your question directly, John, like our phosphorus and potassium, we're able to grow independent with our phosphorus and potassium. We, the ruminants in our systems, really, we've closed the loop on the pnk. We can't say that we've done that for nitrogen yet. We're still in the process and we have some things we can talk about that we're trying to do in order to increase our overall nutrient balance on this operation. In the, in the end category, when.

You say you've balanced out or you're, you're cycling all of the P and K that you need in your operation, are you bringing in any feed? Is there any, is there any P and K coming? Are there any nutrients coming in as feedback?

Correct. So one of the biggest advantages we have in order to do this at a scale is we bring in most of the coal, potatoes from the whole region and we have two different canneries. So sweet corn, carrots, peppers, even a little bit of onions. So we bring in all this byproduct into the system, into our ecosystem, which is going to start with the ruminant. So we bring in all these nutrients from neighboring farms in the form of byproducts, the stuff that humans don't want. And that is what allows us to kind of reach our nutrient balance. It's a beautiful cycle.

That is interesting. So are you bringing in these by products in as livestock feed for some of the things you mentioned? I could imagine that being a possibility. But you mentioned onions as well and that raised a question mark in my mind.

We have heifers, pregnant heifers. So yes, almost, I would say 90% of what we bring in is going to start in our kitchen and be livestock feed. And then we have a very robust composting system which will take the other 10%. And all these are rough numbers. The other 10% of these byproducts that won't quite make grade. And then we have, as I'm sure we'll talk about the biggest worm farm in the world too, which is going to take any of the waste that that's not solid and the worms will turn that into something first.

Yeah, let's talk about the worms. I mean we've already opened a couple of rabbit holes that I want to go down. But you mentioned in a sentence a bit ago that you manage livestock, you manage soil health and you're managing earthworms. And you singled out worms. And so I knew this had to lead somewhere. How are you managing earthworms? How are you farming earthworms?

So if anybody handles livestock in a large scale, they know solid manure is welcome. It's easy to handle. We compost 100% of our solid manure and we have a robust composting system with. But it's great it, economically it works even if you have to take that manure like in our situation. Well, some of it's going 10 miles away to some of our farmers out fields. So it works. Liquid manure is a pain in the ass. And yes, it's got fertilizer in it, but you can't do it economically as far as stank and GHG emissions. It's where the majority comes from. So our liquid manure has always been a hassle. It's a hassle for any large scale cattle operator. And so we put in about eight acres of long skinny. They look like swimming pools, but that's just the shape of them with drains in the bottom and the bottom foot and a half is rock and the top three and a half feet is wood chips, which comes from our orchards because retired apple trees are harder to chip. They don't go to, they don't go make paper, they get burned. And so we're able to make a market for those. So you got rock and wood chips, which is really copying God's creation. And we put the dirty water on top. It flows through the wood chips which, sorry, which is full of the worms, which is inoculated with over 50 million worms. And so the dirty water settles through the layers of organic matter, the layer of mineral, and we collect that water off the bottom. And now that water is clean enough for us to reuse in our systems or, or for us to irrigate with simply easily. And then we're left with worms that are now upcycling those wood chips, plus that water into solids, which is what we want, but into microbial rich solids. You know, worms will take one microbial and turn it into seven. So it's a whole beautiful system that started with we need clean water because it doesn't work. We need solids. So they do that. But in the process of doing that, they give us 5x microbials on our farm.

Wow. All right, so let's talk about this and what is needed, what you have learned about this system and what is needed for it to be a success. How did you turn the system over? I've got so many questions, I scared to know where to begin. Let's start by asking the question, what does the wastewater that comes out of the system look like? Or is there water that comes out of the system?

Yeah. So we're putting 300,000 plus gallons of water a day. So call it green water is what's going in on top. And it's, it's coffee, it's nasty, it's shit water. It's the water that, you know, everyone hates. And then as it takes about four hours as it settles through, we call it tea water off the bottom, which in our regenerative world, it's not exactly accurate, but it's called tea water because of the color. It has no solids. The total suspended solids is almost completely eliminated. It's got a little bit, but it's taken a 90% decrease in the TSS. It's taken an 80% decrease in the nitrogen as it goes through, 70% decrease in the phosphorus and a 60% decrease in the potassium as this water flows through. And so it still has a tea color at the bottom because of the tannings of the wood. It goes through our drip system for our orchard, but it's a tea water that has a little bit of microbial in it. It has a little bit of phosphorus, a little bit of potassium, just a tiny bit of nitrogen, and we use it just like irrigation water.

That was going to be. My question is, where do you use that for? You're using that to irrigate the apple trees through a drip irrigation system?

Yeah, a portion of it. Some of it will go through our circles and then most of it actually we're just reusing back through our flush barns and we reuse it to clean all of our systems. The only potable water we use on our livestock operation is what the FDA requires us to use in the parlor and then also what the cows drink.

What does the application process look like for transferring the slurry water from the wash down to the top of the wood chips? Is it sprinkled on through a sprinkler system? What does that application look like?

Yeah, so it used to be PVC pipes sitting on top of this, these beds. As of two weeks ago, we just installed a linear pivot. So, you know, does that visualize. So it's a, it's an over top sprinkler system on wheels that travels through. It's. It's been infinitely better and better because.

You get better distribution.

Correct.

What does the cycle look like for turning over the beds? How, how frequently do you remove the dry material? Do you leave any behind as an inoculant for the next batch? What does that process look like?

So on average, let's say 18 months. So we put clean wood chips in, we inoculate it with the worms. It filters millions and millions of gallons over 18 months. We will then take a long arm excavator, which is why they're set up in long skinny swimming pool type beds. And we will clean out those wood chips. We'll clean out almost all of them, but the worms are really cool. They're going to put their castings up, they're going to go down. So at the end of the day, if we're harvesting at a year or two years, it doesn't make all that much difference. As long as we just take out the wood chips which have been processed, that has more worm castings in it. And as soon as we get to the point where the wood chips are still pretty unprocessed, we just won't go any deeper.

That's interesting. So you're actually finding that the wood chips are processing faster, closer to the surface than they are further down.

Yeah, and to be fair, we've always harvested all the wood chips. The idea is, and we've seen some spaces where we didn't need to, but generally speaking, at some point when you're getting in there, we've just pretty much harvested all the wood chips and we've only done this twice. Like we've only had the system for three years.

So now you have a. For the wood chips, when you remove this material, this mulch material, what proportion of the wood chips are still recognizable as wood chips. Or I guess my question is how thoroughly has this been composted? How thoroughly has it been turned into rich, black, friable material that no longer resembles wood chips at all?

Yeah. So what we do with it, we take this substrate, which is what we call it sticky wet, right out of these beds and we'll put them in big in windrows. We don't want them to heat up, but usually at this point there's not enough activity in there for them to heat up. There's a little bit of heat that takes place sometimes we try to mitigate that because we don't want to kill all the bacteria. But at the end of the day we'll put them in these big windrows, we will dry them out for a few months and then when we screen them, we're probably left with about 25% overs and 75% unders, which the unders is a beautiful. Most of that's going to be worm castings. It's a beautiful product. Overs is, you know, wood chippy and. Yeah.

And you can probably reuse that for the cycle again.

Correct.

How are you using the, the worm castings and the final result of that, I mean it seems to me that that would be a fairly high value material. Not just from a nutrient content perspective, but most especially from a microbial activity perspective.

100%. Yeah. From like a macro npnk, it's pretty similar to compost, maybe a little bit better, but, but from a micro microbial it's awesome. And we right now we use it just pretty raw. We put it out on our fields and mostly in our orchards. Locally. Well, I say locally internally in the last three months and moving forward for the next seven months we have some massive plans to go next level in this because to be straight, we wanted clean water and that's what we accomplished for the last three, four years. We realized in that process. Oh shit, this is awesome. We have, we have worms and microbials and this, this is exactly what we need. And so we just started harvesting it raw, putting it in our orchard and we've seen great results. Totally anecdotal, there's not a science bone in my body. But we've, since then we get together, we've got people hired and we're now taking it to where just last week we sold some to reclamation project where they're mining. We sold some to the department of Ecology to where they're, they're starting to use it. So we're starting into a whole new world. Of what we're going to do with these worm castings. We've started mixing the worm castings with the worms into our compost, into our raw manure compost to make a vermicompost. And so all of that is brand new. It's what we'll be talking about in, you know, in detail in six months.

This idea is not a new idea, as I'm sure you know. I was just looking behind me and couldn't spot the book. But there's a fascinating little book called Earthworms the Farmer's Friends. If I have the right book in mind. It's written like in about 1940 or so, and they talk about using earthworms to compost large volumes of dairy manure. It's interesting how we have newer technology and new, new, innovative ways of doing this. So what advice would you have? What things have you learned from going through this process? And what advice would you have for other people who want to implement similar systems?

Well, worms are amazing. Worms are robust. And this system is really, really good. Because one of the things I underestimated from the beginning with worms is they like wet. They like to live in wet. So we have, you know, we're constantly making them wet. We. We have made them too wet and we have killed a lot of worms because we put. Our green water has been even too, too thick. We've kind of what we've done is you put water in there because before the green water gets to the worms, it's gone through some slope screens. And we found when our slope screens were not working effectively, we actually would create a crust on top of the wood chips or with the wood chips, which would go anaerobic. This system would go anaerobic. So that was a big learning curve. You can't do that. You have to. You have to water them more than you kind of estimate, I would guess, which is good for us. But was something that surprised me because if there's days where we're shut down for cleaning our slope screen or whatever it might be, you actually get too dry on your beds and it's not good for the worm health. Worm castings are just out of this world. I am amazed with the results that we see when we start incorporating this microbial activity worm casting into our soils. And the effects that it has is again, in six months, we'll be able to talk in detail about it. For now, I've been doing it for two years. I'm just like, oh, amazing. That's so cool. But that's about the extent of what I can say.

Well, I think you share that with many farmers. And let's not remember there's. It's so easy for individuals of a scientific bent or individuals who want to discredit something to just say, oh, well, that's just anecdotal evidence. But let's not forget the two words of that phrase are anecdotal and evidence. It might be anecdotal, but it is still evidence.

Yeah.

And so in, in that spirit and in that context, I'd really like to tell us a little bit about what have you been observing. What, what improvements have you noticed in your soil and your crop performance and perhaps also in your livestock performance since you have been begun incorporating both the compost and the vermicompost?

Yeah, so we, our first kind of experiment with the, I'm going to call it the worm substrate, because in this, in this example, we didn't screen it. So it had the wood chips and then it had, you know, what, 40% worm castings, and then it had still the manure and then, which, you know, it had the whole substrate just straight harvested out of the beds. And we put it on a struggling block of apples, a block that never really had a good start. Always was the ugly block that we avoided looking at if we had people in the car with us. And, and we put it in that block and then that's. That's what we did. We put it, you know, we put about 3 ton to the acre and we applied it because I think it was important in my mind and, you know, I'm constantly changing. But we wanted to apply it in the windrow so at the root zone, because we wanted that ecosystem to that worm to kind of stay intact for the application. We didn't just want to spread it kind of like a compost spreader.

So you did it right along the trunk line.

That's right. So the applicator was, you know, it was a side shooter, kind of like a. And it just put a nice little windrow right along the trunk line.

Yep.

And that orchard has. Has turned a corner. That orchard now is not the ugly block that orchard makes. You know, it looks like the other blocks around it at this point, which doesn't say a lot, but it says a ton because of where it started.

How old were these trees when you applied it?

Nine years. Nine years old? Yeah. So that's one experiment. We've done another experiment with brand new tree, like a new planting. And that orchard, that block is great. They've taken off and within two years, we almost considered picking. Whereas before, you know, three years is when you pick, sometimes four. But in two years we just. It's just, it's just, again, anecdotal evidence. And again, six months from now, hey, we'll have more to talk about. We got a PhD on our team. Now, who's going to help us do this?

But.

But it's just. It's really, really amazing. And then we can talk about the alfalfa and the tea water and, and where we put this stuff. It's just our greatest fields are the fields that are tied into our. That are closest to the dairy, that are closest to this worm bed, that are tied into our pipeline for this tea water.

So let's talk about the alfalfa fields in the tea water. I think one of the immediate first questions, we want to talk about the results, but also, what else are they getting in addition to the tea water? Are they also getting compost applications? Are they also getting, like, what else is a part of that success?

Yeah. So every single one of our acres is going to get 5 tons of compost every single year. That's our base. And that's. When I say compost, I'm talking compost from our feedlot or from our dairy that we are turning seven times. We certify organic, and it's just kind of a. That's our baseline, our fundamental, our foundation of our soil. 5 acres or 5 ton per acre every single year. And then beyond that, we've played honestly with the worm castings. We usually save those for the orchard because that's the high dollar you can't hardly afford. Even if you get 25% more yield in your potatoes, it doesn't hardly pay for the worm castings to get there. So usually we stick to compost and then that tea water comes through the irrigation pivots. Does that answer your question, John?

Yeah. Let's talk a bit about the performance. What have you seen in the alfalfa fields? And it may be hard to disassociate the compost applications from the tea water, although I guess the tea is more recent. So what shifts have you observed in crop performance with the alfalfa?

Yeah, there's 200 acres that comes to mind right next to the worm beds that get the most tea water just by way of proximity. And all of our fields have had compost, so that's pretty baselined. But this field by far gets the most tea water. And it is a. It is a field that we historically have not put potatoes in because it just wasn't good enough dirt. But for the last two years it's been an alfalfa field. The alfalfa is coming out now. The alfalfa has been in there for four years. And for the last two years we've just been hitting it pretty hard with tea water through the irrigation system. It's not been like a application because it's pretty well clean water. I mean, it's just part of our irrigation system, but it gets a lot. That alfalfa was our highest yielding this year. Last year we saw the year before that. The previous two years before that it was our lowest yielding. Again, the soil is bad. It had a pretty bad stand. We just kind of hit the temperatures wrong. And so it was just kind of a limping along alfalfa field. In the last two years since our applications, it ended as our highest yielding alfalfa field. And we got about 4,000 acres to compare against that of alfalfa. So it went from near worst young to the best as it got older, which says a lot.

Which is the opposite of the usual trend.

That's right. And furthermore, this next year we're putting potatoes in there in that dirt. We'll see how it goes. But it's. We just have confidence in that dirt now, whereas before, you know, potato farmers, they're gonna have a lot of confidence in dirt before they invest in all the money that goes into planting potatoes.

These are fascinating stories, but I want to go back to some of the pieces that we started that you started hinting at at the beginning. What are you. I guess I'll begin by asking a very open ended question is what are some of the remarkable stories or experiences that stand out in your memory as you've been on this transition journey?

It's a fun question. It's a good question. You know, there's one of the stories that comes to mind first, and it was at the genesis of, I will say, our regenerative transition. Not to say I don't want to be careful because my fathers and grandfathers, I mean the farmer in most all cases is the original environmentalist. I mean soil health. But as we started to be really intentional in the last 10 years about going regenerative and about reducing our dependency on synthetics, that's what I'm referencing. One of the genesis stories to our transition was another field not too far away from the farm. And it was actually before we bought this dairy farm. So it was when this dairy farm, we were, we were working with it, but it wasn't Ours and the, the previous farmer got into a pickle where he had a whole bunch of green water and you know, an inspection coming up or whatever. I don't remember the exact scenario, but long story short, we dumped just a ton of shit water in this field to kind of get him out of, to help him out to work through it. And we, we put a ton in, just plowed it in. Long story short, six years after that, this field was the most outstanding field we had. It was our best unit in all regards. And we really had no idea why. The only reason, the only difference in this field was just that really over application of shit for that one year. And it lasted for about six years. And that was really kind of the genesis story to us saying, you know what, we need to go next level on our manure. This was before we put worms in, but really was again kind of the driver to go in that direction and investing in all these systems because we realized we don't understand the rhizosphere. In fact, we might know more about the deepest part of the ocean than we know about our rhizosphere. And somehow saying something it is. And somehow this ruminant manure and the natural regenerative systems that we have come to know more and more about have a huge impact on that root zone rhizosphere microbial activity. And we want to learn more. So that's kind of the story that comes to mind because it is the genesis of. Right when I moved back from college, like, all right, we're figuring this out.

You know, Austin, I think one of the pieces that find interesting about our conversation, we have the privilege of working with many large scale growers. And so for us this whole idea that regenerative agriculture cannot be large scale seems kind of laughable because we live it every day. But yet there are people who believe that in order to really be good stewards of landscape and to truly be regenerative farmers, it requires such intensive management that it doesn't scale and it's not a fit for large scale operations. Can you just reflect on that in your personal experience? What has it been like for you in making this transition on the scale that you're operating on?

Yeah, I love that comment and that question because it is such a frustrating dialogue in my mind because regenerative ag and the impact it can have is so incredible. It's so amazing, it's so fun. And to limit it to a small farm, which is just limiting that impact, it seems like such a, such a cop out I just, to me it comes down to a couple things that allow you to go scale, that allow you to scale it. Unfortunately, the things correlate very well with large operations. And one of those is ruminants, the baseline of having ruminants at a large scale. And may I even say in a catho situation, in some cases, if you have a very symbiotic relationship with a cafo and that again, kind of acts as your foundation or your basis for this manure and for the growing crops, you know, the COVID crops that you are able to really blow the lid off because the cattle don't care. You know, they love all grass and. And if you want to start this strategy over here for, with a six way cocktail, by all means go for it. Yes, the cattle, they'll turn it into something regardless of what you think at the end. So ruminants have allowed us to really, to really do this at scale. Now the balance to soil and ruminants has to be right. That's where, you know, to your point, John, and to the maybe the argument there has to be a balance to ruminants and soil. The other kind of topic I go to in my mind when you ask that question is local, a localized system. So it does need to be a localized system, of course. And I think that's kind of the argument that people are making is a large scale farm isn't localized, but I think that's the piece that we need to work on and that's kind of this overarching. We have to be able to grow a lot of these, these pieces local and keep everything in kind of a localized system and close that loop in order to do this at scale. That's just where my mind goes when you ask that question, because I think, I think that is the important part. But if we can, if we can figure those out, if we can figure out how to do it local, then there's no reason why we can't do it at a scale.

Yeah. And you know, there's an argument to be made for having more decentralized and regionalized production, as in, you're in the Columbia River Basin, you're the heart of apple production country for all of North America in that local geography. And there is an argument to be made that it would be wiser from a climate sensitivity perspective to perhaps not have all the majority of the apple production so geographically concentrated. But we live in a world where the reality is we have come to this situation as a result of economic and market forces. And if we want to Have a different situation and want to have different. Have regionalized and decentralized production, then there are going to need to be counterbalances to those market forces or different types of market forces that come into play. And some of those are for different crops. But what I really appreciate about the example that you just shared in the work that you're doing is that you are really closing the loop for the waste products of the various processing facilities. And the processing that happens like that is so important because without that, my understanding is that a great deal of that waste product ends up going into landfills or being plowed back into the soil. It's just. It's not. Or burned. It's just not utilized.

Yep. No, I agree. And again, that, that goes with like, again, the scaled operation. And even if you will, the cafo, which allows us to do that, which allows us to really gobble up so much of this garbage, which is not at all garbage. It's cattle food, it's plant food. It just. It depends how you process it. It's worm food. But that has been one of our main. I appreciate that, John, a lot because that's been our main focus. And we, we have really looked at our waste products, starting with the first was the food we can feed the cows, our apples, our potatoes. And it's a massive part of our program. We bring those in. We're able to bring nutrients in from outside sources in order to put those through the great recycler, AKA the ruminant, and then reuse that in the soil. So it's a huge part of our program. And then we've jumped into the wood chips, which being in the apple region, and I agree with you, I wish they wouldn't plant as many apples here. My family's culprit to some of it, but very small portion of it. Keep, Keep the, Keep the land diverse. We need some Woodstock. We need some real crop. We need some. You know, it's got to be all balanced. But at the end of the day, we still, as of last year, Washington state burned 75% of the retired apple trees because there was no place to put it. You can't even hardly blame the farmer. Hey, farmer, pay $400 more per acre to harvest this, this orchard and then have a pile of wood chips in the corner that will sit there indefinitely and attract mice and disease. And so we now are taking all the wood chips for Washington State and building a market for those that includes our next level. In six months, we'll be talking about biochar because that's where a portion of those apple trees are going to go to. And now cardboard, another waste product, compostables. Because we have thousands of ruminants and thousands of ton of raw manure that has the right NC to N ratio for composting, we are able to make a lot of garbage disappear.

Are you saying that you're using cardboard as a feedstock for your composting operation?

Yes, we are. We're using it just right now. It's from my brother's apple facility and it's pretty small scale. In fact, we use probably 3% of the potential, potential energy that our compost is making naturally because again, the cow gives us the right C to N ratio. So yes, we're doing it on a small scale, but we're blowing it up here in the next few months as we again take the waste products and keep that nutrient in our loop, keep it going.

At the beginning of our conversation, you made mention of improvements that you've observed in fruit qualities, particularly for your apples and potatoes. And one of the things, a decade and a half ago I used to do a lot of dairy nutrition and was pulling lots of forage samples. And you learn pretty quickly that a ton of alfalfa is not a ton of alfalfa. That there can be very dramatic differences in forage quality that result in significant differences in milk production per ton, even greater than what can be accurately reflected on a test. And so I just love to get your perspective on how has quality evolved of the crops that you're growing as you've made these various changes.

I mean, again, the anecdotal evidence is huge in my brain and it's blowing up.

It's still evidence.

Yeah, we just, you see, for example, on the alfalfa. Go on to that. Go into what you know about alfalfa. I mean, when you feed an alfalfa plant synthetic fertilizers, you can grow really high yielding alfalfa. But when you feed the soil all these microbials and all these nutrients that the soil wants and you allow the soil to grow that alfalfa crop, then it's different. And you notice it in how much leaves are on the, I call it the concrete portion, this part of the stem that is not digestible, you have a lot less undigestible stem and you have a lot more leafy greens just because the natural, the natural plant wants to grow like that. But when you manipulate it in a sense where you're just feeding that plant NP&K or whatever it might be, to grow. It just changes the whole dynamic of that plant. And so, yeah, alfalfa just. It's leafier, it's higher protein, it's less undigestible fiber. Apples.

Yeah. With the alfalfa. In my historical experience, when you change the nutrition management, particularly when you start addressing calcium and getting more biological nutrition, there's two significant pieces that happen. One is you really change the leaf to stem ratio, as you pointed out. And the second is that the stem that is there becomes a lot more digestible, to the point that you just made about having more digestible fibers. It's no longer this hard, woody stem that is really difficult to digest.

Yep, I agree. That's been our observations over and over again.

So I interrupted you. You were about to begin speaking to the apples.

Well, apples, same story. It's just as we. We've actually. We've actually had to, in some cases, throttle back. You know, we've had the experience where we put too much compost and our tree becomes too robust and the apples have less of a signet, you know, less of a ratio to that tree. So that's where the worm castings have allowed us to really be more effective, is because a little less compost, but coupled with some worm castings, have just built a healthy tree and have helped the balance within that root zone grow just what we want to grow. And that is lots of apples and a healthy tree.

In effect, you're able to add more vigorous biology without adding excess of nitrogen or excess of nutrients, Correct?

Yep. More microbial activity to ignite again, to wake up that soil to do with that in the tree is going to do naturally if you just let it happen without overdoing it. And sometimes that happens with our nitrogen application or our compost application.

Yeah. What about the potatoes?

Potatoes, potatoes. If. If I'm being really honest, when I talk regenerative farming and we give a lot of tours, there's a lot of interest of regenerative agate scale. We do a lot of this. Potatoes really are our least regenerative part of our system.

I know what contrarians say, and I know from a contrarian perspective, how can you possibly grow potatoes and aggressively till the soil several times per year and expect that to be regenerative? That's the contrarian perspective, which I don't necessarily agree with, for the record, but.

There'S some basis to it. Right. When you're growing, this is my opinion, when you're growing a crop for a human, it's going by default to put more pressure on that soil, because for our digestive system to be able to get nutrients out of it, it has had to work differently than the grass and the corn that's being grown for a ruminant to digest. And so with our potatoes, we do, and that's why we have a five or six year rotation with them, because it takes us about that long to build that soil back up to get it to where we want it to be. No tillage during that time. And then we come in and we kind of take the year, we take it in the chops. Not to say there's not a benefit there, because in my. And you could speak to this better than me, but in my opinion, regenerative ag, if you had just one minute to talk about it, you couldn't talk about the different pillars and you would talk about diversity and the diversity, the benefits of diversity and the benefits of that relationship with the root zone and the soil and microbials. So potato and growing potatoes like that, it is, it isn't an added diversity to our rotation to our programs, and there's benefits to that. But at the end of the day, we are, we're going through there and we are. I mean, we're having to till it just by the fact that you're digging up, you know, 30 tons of potatoes from underneath the dirt. There's no way to do that without tilling the dirt. But I will say it is after that potato year, starting again, starting again, but getting those grasses into it, that's usually the year that we're able to see our grasses take off. They love coming after potatoes. And I just think that's because of the activity, that's because of the diversity there. And of course, we're going to throw in compost. You know, that compost never stopped. I mean, we're still doing it as regenerative as we can. That's the compost. And we're going to, we're going to do extra compost for potatoes and then you plant the grass and it really does fit in a nice rotation.

Well, you know, there is this common theme in the regenerative agriculture domain where consultants, agronomists and farmers speak about smelling the soil. They like to go out and dig up soil and they like to smell it and looking for that rich, earthy smell that is a reflection of actinomycetes activity and really abundant microbial populations. And, you know, I've smelled lots of soil and there is no soil that has that rich, vibrant, earthy smell, the same as soil following a potato. Crop potatoes are remarkable in their capacity to develop that rich, earthy smell. And so if the assumption is true that there's a correlation between our olfaction, our sense of smell and microbial activity and diversity, then I guess I would just ask it as a question. I don't know the answer. I don't have an opinion about this. But I think it's worth asking the question, what microbial activity do potato crops add to the soil that we could actually benefit from if we really understood it and knew how to harness it and use it effectively?

You know, I'm under qualified to answer that question when you start like even some of the words used for the types of microbials and. But you know, something that has really impacted me when it, when it comes to worms is this, this fungus, the fungi, the part of microbial that's in the fungi. The worms are really populating our fungi and potatoes, they do the same thing. You know, they attract certain fungi in a conventional system that is very detrimental. I mean, you get, you get, you know, that's why, that's why in potatoes the fungicide is, you know, you use a ton of fungicide in a conventional system. So the anecdotal answer there, John, is I think there is just some different fungi. They're being attracted on top of that biology. And we do know that there's a balance. The fungi to biological balance is really, really important. And I think potatoes just offer again, a diversified rotation in our typical, you know, cover crop, grass, alfalfa, corn system.

You know, sometimes when you're having conversations with people, you just get this flash of inspiration or you get this idea that just pops out of the blue at random. And I just had one of those. It's just I'm thinking about the different plant types and what they contribute to soil. And it occurs to me that there are a group of plants which are known to have very positive influences on soil biology. And they are all have very fine roots. Buckwheat, for example, is known to be particularly good at stimulating mycorrhizae and solubilizing phosphorus. It has a very acidic root system. Oats also share that characteristic, and they're both very reducing roots. And what these plants share in common is extremely fine roots. And potatoes have the same. Potatoes have very fine roots. And potatoes also store a lot of their energy below ground in the form of a tuber. So what if there's a possibility that these roots compensate for having limited root biomass by actually sending more root exudates out into the soil? Profile. It's just a random question that popped into my mind and I don't know the answer and I don't expect you to either, but wanted to share that it makes sense.

I think it's brilliant. I think it's exactly why again, I love regenerative ag. It's because it's not defined, it's not totally in a box. Which is what I would argue that USD organic has done is it's put us in this box to say get up to this line and then do everything you can to get to this line. And if you cheat, it doesn't matter as long as you get to this line. And it just, I think it's, it's the wrong, it's the wrong idea. But with regenerative ag, I mean there's all these different concepts that I think make it work and yeah, I love it.

Yeah. So you've, you've developed a very different perspective and a different farming operation there. In the local context. What do you believe to be true about farming and about agriculture that is different from the mainstream view, that is different from the view of others in your community.

So it's all long term. Everything's a long term strategy. And agriculture and our family farm and a lot of family farms, we never sit around the dinner table and talk about our EBITDA and about our sellout strategy. Right. Like, I don't know, just what my buddies talk about when they're in the worlds they're in of Wall Street. It's just, that's not a, that's not a perspective. We have no short term play. In fact, we're going to lose money many years but, but we're living our dream and we're going to have something for our kids if they want to grow up on. And so I think, I think that really fits well with regenerative agriculture because everything we do is long term and everything we do is to make our soil fundamentally healthy for generations to come.

I agree with most of what you said except the losing money part. I don't know how you equate losing money with regeneration. Those seem to be mutually exclusive.

Well, I mean, I only say that this year because the milk prices kick my butt. But we've made money in the system, but sometimes the markets still come to you and just surprise you with something you cannot control.

Yeah. You know, farming at the scale you are one of the, I guess you are organically certified so that somewhat has the effect of decommoditizing you but are removing you from the commodity Supply chains. But one of the challenges that I see sometimes is that farmers make a transition to regenerative agriculture. And their farming operation itself is simply incredible. Their improvements in soil health and the crop performance they've been able to produce are. They're remarkable stories. And they have the data and the evidence to back that up. And yet they still sell into commodity supply chains. And as a result, the financial ability is not there, the financial reward is not there for all the work that they've done historically. How have you thought about that and how have you managed that for your operation?

It's a great question. So most of what we do is not certified organic.

Okay?

All of our compost, a lot of our fruit is, but most of our potatoes, on occasion we go. But most of it's not certified organic. So. So we very much have been in the middle of that world trying to figure out how we, how we benefit from these practices outside of just having better soil, having better crops, reducing our need for synthetic fertilizers. And it started. Most of that conversation goes towards our beef program. So our beef program, we've started direct to consumer at a real large scale. So the Seahawks and the Climate Pledge arena and a lot of these big time customers in Seattle and a lot of customers, they're looking for these programs, but if they're being honest with themselves, they're looking for these programs at a massive scale that can still support the needs that they're used to, the consistency and everything else. So our beef program, our Royal Ranch label, has really, really taken off and it's allowed us to translate that label because again, our biggest emphasis is diversity. When we sell beef, we make sure everyone understands the only reason we can do this regeneratively is because we have the acres and we have the Woodstock and we have the worms that all work symbiotically. And so that's a big part of our story. So it's really worked in nicely to labeling now our fruit with some of these storytelling pieces to the point where now almost all of our products, beef and fruit, our milk's not there yet, but it will be. It has a QR code in that QR code is blockchain. And it has the whole life cycle of that product on that QR code on that blockchain. And it takes you to the site which tells you the animal's birthday, it tells you what it ate, it tells you what USDA Comet Farm says its carbon footprint is based on all of its ins and outs and everything. And it tells you what who Its sire was. It tells you all that data about that animal, which is allowing us to tell the story about regenerative practices, diversity, and how that all works together and try to capture some of that.

I think that's such an important piece. And you're obviously doing that and doing that well and seeing success with that. Given the personal experience you have on your operation and also the conversations you have with other farmers, I'm sure you're perceived as a leader in the farming community locally. What do you believe most limits farmers from achieving the potential that they're really capable of and from taking some of these next steps.

Collaboration.

Aha.

Bingo. I agree with you 100%.

Yeah. I think that's where I'm just really fortunate that my brother and my brother and my dad and my uncle and my cousin, we eat dinner together, we see each other all the time, and it allows us to collaborate. Because what I'm doing, I mean, I can't take credit for all of it. I mean, I'm the cattle side. But the collaboration to the Woodstock, to the real crop, to the grass, to the cattle, to the worms, all of that system is what. Is what makes it work. And so when a farmer has his focus on the monocropping or whatever he might be doing, then it'll never work. They have to have. And it's okay, you can stay focused on whatever you're doing, but you have to have the integration with the cattle farmer and the integration with the Woodstock or whatever it might be. There has to be that integration. So I think that's the biggest barrier to entry and why I'm in a fortunate spot, because they just happen to be my brothers and cousins.

Yeah, I really resonate with your answer because I see collaboration in two ways. One is the very tangible collaboration of synergizing livestock and land and different crop types and different types of resources. But then there's also the collaboration of information. And it's been intriguing to me to observe occasionally farmers have made significant progress on their own pathway and have achieved a fairly high degree of success and then been unwilling to share the pathway to success with others, that they wanted this to be their unfair advantage in the marketplace. And you know what? It's been interesting, having been in this space now for 15 years, it's been interesting to see how many of the people who have had that perspective, who've been unwilling to share, who then did not continue their farming operation in the long term for any number of different reasons. It's just looking at this from a kind of A cosmic perspective. It merely makes you ask the question. There was such a strong self interest there and somehow that self interest got sabotaged.

I'm a God fearing man. One of the scriptures in the Bible that resonates with me more than anything is you find yourself, you lose yourself, you lose yourself, you find, find yourself. And I think that's, to me, that's what you're saying is you will lose yourself if you're not collaborating, if you're not open, if you're not losing yourself just a little bit and trying to help others. And I think that's a powerful force in this world. I think there's a lot of blessings, if you will, that come from somebody who's willing to collaborate and look outward. And when you start looking inward, it just don't work for a lot of reasons.

A different way of saying that is when you are selfish than you can expect the people around you to treat you in the same way. So, Austin, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I've learned lots of things, particularly about worm farming, amongst other things. And my, my hope for you is that other farmers reach out to you and you're able to both expand what you're doing, but also share the information about worm farming to other people as well. So thank you for being here and thank you for sharing.

Thanks for having me, John. It's been fun. I hope you make a trip out to the Columbia Basin, come check it out.

I will at some point for certain.

The team at AEA and I are dedicated to bringing this show to you because we believe that knowledge and information is the foundation of successful regenerative systems. At aea, we believe that growing better quality food and making more money from your crops is possible. And since 2006, we've worked with leading professional growers to help them do just that. At aea, we don't guess, we test. We analyze and we provide recommendations based on scientific data, knowledge and experience. We've developed products that are uniquely positioned to help growers make more money with regenerative agriculture. If you are a professional grower who believes in testing instead of guessing, someone who believes in a better, more regenerative way to grow, visit advancingecoag.com and contact us to see if AEA is right for you. Thank you for listening and we look.

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