Podcast Short #10: Breaking Away from Traditional Agronomy with Jeff Kleypas

Hi friends. Welcome to the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast. We have all kinds of fun conversations here and you're about to hear a real gem. I'm here with Jeff Clapas, who is a part of the AEA team. Jeff, about two years ago on a webinar, a guest asked me the question, what is my perspective or opinion on the fact that so few AEA consultants have a professional background or have, have formal education in agronomy? And my response was, I think that's one of our biggest strengths because I've actually observed a lot of challenges from, from people who have to unlearn all the things that they've learned in mainstream agronomy with this very different approach, this biological centric approach to agriculture. But that hasn't been the case for you. You have made the transition and you bring a lot of innovative perspectives to the work that we're doing at aea. What inspired you to make that shift? What's your story and your background that got you going in this direction?

Yeah, Joe, that's an excellent question. You know, I've definitely went the traditional route through college. Getting a Bachelor's of agronomy at Texas Tech was going to get my master's as well, but my advisor decided he was going to retire and I wasn't really looking at the time to get outside of the cotton industry. So I decided just to go ahead and make the jump into industry. At that time, I'd already been in college for five years getting my Ag Ed certification as well, just as something to kind of fall back on in case the ag industry did take a turn. And also just enjoyed my years in FFA when I was in high school. But you know, I did the certified Crop Advisor certificate to all the right things that, you know, an agronomist in the conventional ag world is supposed to do. And, and you know, I don't regret any of that for sure. Definitely still learn from that side of the industry. But I think one of the things that really got me looking differently or kind of initial experience that said, hey, we need to do something different was when I was working as a field agronomy scout at a local vegetable company and we were asked to walk into a field to make observations where they had just sprayed fungicide. And this is like a three day re entry fungicide. And here we are all walking in, in this field. You know, we know that we're not supposed to be there, but here's every single person not even thinking twice of going in there. And you know, you look back at those things and realize how many pesticides are getting sprayed on the food we eat. And it really makes you start thinking, or should we really be doing this? And I was fortunate enough to, after that job, to actually be self employed, working with some of the quote, unquote snake oils, which we now call the biological industry, and saw the successes that we were seeing in various crops as far as yield increases, quality increases. You know, even back then when we didn't know what we were necessarily doing, you could see cattle foraging on pastures that half the field had been sprayed and they would sleep in the conventional treated side of the field and they would feed on the biological side of the field. And you know, fast forward to where we are now and all the work that you've done and in the education that I've gotten along the way in the last 20 years. And here we are.

I had similar experiences. This is, I think many people listening to the podcast know my story, but. Or elements of my story, but I still clearly remember spraying Roundup and other herbicides on weeds between rows of vegetables, barefoot, with a backpack sprayer. And yeah, that was the quality of the information that we had available at the time and obviously a very different space today. But you know, Jeff, when you think about one of the observations that I've made is that many mainstream agronomists who, who want to, who are curious about a biological form of agronomy, it's very hard to shift, particularly when it comes to nitrogen management. Like they can have all of the data in front of them that the SAP analysis data and so analysis data that shows them that their crop has enough nitrogen and yet it can be very difficult to make a recommendation to reduce nitrogen applications in spite of all the data telling them they don't need it. And I really sympathize with that. When you are so deeply entrenched and there's change is painful, change is difficult. And so you've made a significant transition. I'm sure that didn't come without some painful pinpricks or some motivations for change. What were the pieces that motivated you to go in a different direction?

I think more than anything, it was a need to look in a different direction. The area of the country that I'm in, we're growing concrete instead of crops. So in order for me to stay in the ag industry, I knew I was going to have to look at job positions that weren't just local, something that was going to take me more into a regional type position and was fortunate enough to join an Irrigation company and kind of took a little bit of a break from agronomy for about four years, but got to really see a lot, a lot of experiences in the entire central US Working basically from the Rocky Mountains to the Mississippi river, from South Texas all the way to the Canadian border. So, you know, really got to venture out and see some different things starting to happen. And you, when I was working at that particular company is when I actually became introduced to James Johnson. And I was actually on the farm a couple of days after his first major AEA delivery when he didn't know if it was going to work for him or not. And you got to see his whole transition firsthand and seeing someone that was definitely on the conventional side come to where he is today. I mean, he invited me into a meeting with, with one of his local reps and they were telling him all of these different, conventional things that he needed to be doing. And he's just telling them no because he's already was an AEA believer at the time. Things were working for him. And that last time that I called on him before working at aea, he basically was preaching to me all the reasons that a person should be doing everything that, you know, we're doing at aea. And I mean, it's easy to see, see that passion and, and transition over, maybe not transition over at that, that particular time, but get curious enough to start listening to the, the podcast and, you know, just thinking, starting to think differently and things just were clicking in my mind at the same time. And, you know, I remember driving that 13 hour drive home from his farm and listening to the podcast and going, I've got to look and see what jobs are available at aea. And I guess it was probably about a year later and was fortunate enough to join the team and almost two years later, here we are today.

Jeff, one of the things that you mentioned in your journey is not just seeing the experiences with James, but also seeing the other side of the coin. Things that were not going so well in production agriculture, things that were not going so well with personal health. What were some of those triggers?

We've got a family history of farming in West Texas and you know, I saw some family friends starting to get sick and pass away. Even people here locally that I worked with in the industry. Same kind of thing with cancers and whatnot. And it's easy for us from the conventional side to be skeptical of everything we hear in the mainstream media on how bad conventional ag is, but when you take an unbiased look at it, and start peeling back the layers and you know, throwing out the extremes from both end. It's hard not to see a connection at the end of the day. And I hear this from conventional growers more and more now as well. And this country definitely has a chronic health issue. And you know, depending on who you talk to, there's definitely different reasons that people point to on some of that. But even here in the last year, reading books like what your food ate, that book in particular really connected with me just because of some of the things being described from a health aspect of inflammation and obesity and whatnot. And just listening to, you know, with actual research how what the cow eats impacts how the fat and omega acid content and everything is related to what we actually ingest. And then I'm looking at here, you know, I'm in getting to that age where you start having to go to the doctor a little more frequently and listening what they're saying with the blood test and everything just, it easily comes together at the end of the day. And you know, it's a shame that, that we have to look for these special pieces of the industry to find the food that is truly healthy for us. But at the same time, you know, when I look at the customer base that I'm working with, they're coming from that conventional side. They may still be very ingrained in that conventional side as well. But you know, they're looking for those alternative markets and pieces where the farm can become healthier, more sustainable. And once we build that whole piece together, you know, I think we're going to see a radically transformed agriculture industry here in the United States if we allow ourselves to get to that point.

You know, you mentioned historically farmers, not just yeah, but people in agriculture generally having a more conservative perspective and perhaps tending to be dismissive of the challenges that are represented by pesticides. And I'm reminded one of my favorite quotes from Charlie Munger is you have no business having an opinion or you do not have a qualified opinion until you can articulate the opposing perspective better than the opposition. In other words, you don't have any business having an opinion about something until you understand both sides of the coin very deeply and very intimately. And what really caused me to develop what I would call a qualified opinion around pesticides was started early on where Arden Anderson gave one day out of a three day long course he spent describing the mechanisms, the modes of action of a broad range of different pesticides. He went through them one by one, described how they work, in what their mode of action is in an agricultural ecosystem and then what that specific impact has in the human body. And he is both an agronomist and has a degree in biophysics and is a medical doctor as well. A do specifically, I think with a lot of other credentials as well. And to have him describe that, that clearly really caught my attention. So I started digging into and trying to understand, all right, what really are the influences of pesticides in the human body. And you know, I read over a dozen books on the topic. There's one in particular, Robert Bosch, I think wrote the Pesticide Conspiracy. That might not be the one that is a good book, but that's not the one that is in mind right now. I forget the exact title, but where they went through some detail describing the specific mechanisms, the modes of actions of various pesticides and how they influence the human body. And when you get done reading that, you can no longer hold the opinion that these things are relatively benign. That opinion is no longer optional. You clearly understand there is no other possibility than that these things are very detrimental to the human body in parts per billion and parts per trillion concentrations. It doesn't take much. Our endocrine system is so sensitive to disturbances that a few parts per billion of a molecule or a toxin can completely disrupt our complete endocrine profile.

I operate a little two acre market farm here at my house. I mean, we still use pesticides around the house and things just because we live in an area that doesn't freeze. So that creates some of some challenges that a lot of people don't have to deal with. But I was certified naturally grown for several years and then decided that basically during COVID when we weren't selling any vegetables, just to try to clear up the weed situation. So I use glyphosate. One application of glyphosate completely changed the dynamic of the soil structure. And I immediately on the next crop had insect pressure just from one application of glyphosate. And that just. That absolutely amazed me that, you know, something like that. I mean, we understand the chelation aspect of glyphosate and the antimicrobial piece and at the very base level of that chemistry. But, you know, seeing that firsthand and knowing how much of it goes out in the world right now, just. It floored me. That's about the best way I can describe that. So, you know, we're putting all the rest of these ingredients out there. What, what is that doing to the ecosystem? And I mean, I think what you just said with this book, it's One I'm going to have to look up now and take a look at. But, you know, what problems have we created that we don't realize and are too stubborn really to address?

It reminds me of a story of a long time. I forget the details, but the rough general story is that Hershey's started shifting the formula or the recipe for their M&Ms. And started shifting the chocolate formula. And in each iteration, every time they changed the formula, they compared the flavor to the most recent formula. And there might have been very slight shifts, but they were so slight that they determined they weren't significant. And so they continued refining, continued refining, and they were, I'm sure, I would expect they were probably making it less and less expensive. And all of a sudden, M and M sales dropped dramatically and they went back and revisited it. And then they compared the most recent formula after a number of changes, the most recent recipe with the original recipe. And there were dramatic flavor differences. But by only comparing to the most recent recipe, there was this gradual drift that they weren't able to perceive. And I think the same thing is true in agriculture. Many of us don't really know what healthy soils and healthy plants look like anymore, because over the course of history, as time has gone by, we never got to see the original. We've not seen the original. We've just seen things drift gradually over time. So your glyphosate example, you did that with one application. But what about those growers for which glyphosate application has been a standard application for 30 years? Like, who remembers what things behaved like 40 years ago versus today? There's been a continual drift, and we are not comparing the current recipe for agriculture and agronomy with what it looked like 40 years ago or 200 years ago.

I think that's an excellent point. I'm actually working with a landowner on some native prairies right now, and he brought up the point that he doesn't even know what those prairies look like back when they were. The bison were roaming the ground because there's been so much history of over grazing and in other management decisions made out there over the years. But, you know, I think one thing that's important to mention, John, is that, you know, in the work that, that I'd get to do on a daily basis, I get to work with growers that are at all different points in their journey. Some are 100% conventional, some are 100% organic. And it's fun to be able to work with those growers, identify their issues, and you know, at the end of the day, there's not a single grower out there, whether they're conventional, organic, that's trying to do harm intentionally to the ecosystem. It's just a matter of what we've grown up in, what we've been trained to do. And, you know, more and more growers are coming to us because they recognize that something does need to change, even if they can't necessarily put their finger on it at the time. But to see how, you know, mineral nutrition and biological management can work to a huge success in both a conventional system and, and in an organic system is exciting to witness firsthand and be a part of in the successful journey of these farms. It's really the something that's become a passion of mine, not just as a member of aea, but as an agronomist in general.

You get to work with a lot of growers who are in the early days of their. They're curious, they. They're recognizing that they can't continue what they've been doing in the past. They want to shift. What does that experience look like for you as an agronomist and as a coach?

You know, it's. I would say there's. With the. As far as working with the, the grower themselves, there's really no one story that really fits any of them. You know, I think that's largely due to the fact that, you know, there's so many variances out there. You know, to some degree we try to, at least I try to go in with kind of a standard approach that we've seen success with, but a lot of times that'll end up getting scratched or something that's much more specific to the individual farm. You know, I think the, the biggest thing, both from a grower standpoint and from a consultant coaching standpoint, is never thinking, you know, it all and always having that open mind and the ability to learn new pieces of the puzzle. Because, I mean, you look at, at all of the things that are going on just in the biological world and we're still learning. I mean, rhizophagy was something that I never heard about in college, and now here we are discussing it, and it's still kind of taboo to a lot of people and, and might get run out of the room if you mentioned that plants are basically eating microbes to the wrong crowd. But, you know, all of this, these emerging technologies and better understanding of the biological system, that's going to happen until the day I decide to retire and, you know, the next Generation will have to continue that endeavor. And I mean, who knows, maybe since we do have a rocket scientist in R and D, maybe we will be growing something on the moon one day.

So Jeff, we live in a world right now where the economics of production agriculture are very challenging and they seem to be coming more challenging or there's a possibility for them to be more challenging in this coming year than they've been in the last couple of years. How do we address that? How do you address that in the growers that you work with?

I think the biggest thing is promote life over death. Put something out there in the field that is actually going to benefit you, not just, just this year, but years to come. You know, I look back to my days doing a lot of vegetable consulting work where, you know, we're spraying once or twice a week for as a preventative measure with a pesticide. Were we killing any or doing anything that was actually helping that plant or were we just basically wasting money and killing whatever was out there? And you know, that's a question I still ask myself some days versus a program where we're building the health of that plant, we're building the health of the soil, something that's not just going to be beneficial for this growing season, but for the following growing season. And I think a perfect example was me being conservative this year with some of my growers in the Midwest where we didn't necessarily do a late season foliar just because we weren't 100% confident in the economics behind it. But now here we are seeing that we're getting some tar spot and other diseases where we didn't spray on those fields with a nutritional application? Well, what would have happened if we would have gone ahead and moved forward with that, that application? Would we have given that plant that much more energy and food to continue to push on the yield? Or you know, did we make the right decision and it would have been a break even application. And you know, the same can be said for fungicide as far as break even, but that fungicide is not going to give that extra nutritional energy to the plant. So you know, I think the upside is definitely with a nutritional application in that specific situation. Just as an example, Jeff, what advice.

Do you have for agronomists and other consultants who want to shift and begin pursuing this biological regenerative agriculture approach with their growers?

I think there's two pieces. One, as I said before, be open minded. Because if you're not open minded, you're never going to get the right information But I think the second thing is really do your research. Don't listen to just one person. You know, there's some commonality as far as the roads being taken to some degree, because I think the biggest problem, or maybe problem is the wrong word. But the biggest issue we probably have right now in this space is there's so many people trying to come to market with a new product, and you've got a lot of overlap and especially in the language that's being used. And, you know, we talk about greenwashing, and I know there was a major company that just got sued for greenwashing in the industry, and I think that's a real concern. It's not just something that's being talked about. And you've got to make sure you're using the right products and getting the right information.

Very good, Jeff. Thank you for being here, for sharing your wisdom and for all of you listening in, wanting to connect with Jeff. He's been a great addition to our team here at aea. Please reach out to our team at aea. We'd be happy to connect you with Jeff or with others of our consulting team. Thank you for all the work you do.

The team at AEA and I are dedicated to bringing this show to you because we believe that knowledge and information is the foundation of successful regenerative systems. At aea, we believe that growing better quality food and making more money from your crops is possible. And since 2006, we've worked with leading professional growers to help them do just that. At aea, we don't guess.

We test.

We analyze, and we provide recommendations based on scientific data, knowledge and experience. We've developed products that are uniquely positioned to help growers make more money with regenerative agriculture. If you are a professional grower who believes in testing instead of guessing, someone who believes in a better, more regenerative way to grow, visit advancingecoag.com and contact us to see if AEA is right for you. Thank you for listening and we look forward to working with you.