Podcast Short #4: Plant Sap Analysis Management

Hi friends. Welcome back to the Regenerative Agriculture podcast. Today's short episode is on SAP analysis and SAP analysis collection and how you do that efficiently and how you do it. Well, I've been at a number of conferences and field days over the last couple of weeks where the prevailing conversation is around how difficult it is to do SAP analysis because unlike tissue analysis, the intention of course is to get fresh leaf samples that haven't dehydrated to the lab. And so that means timeliness is important and how you ship them is important. And so today I wanted to have a conversation with Ethan Darling, who is one of our consultants from our team in the Pacific Northwest. And Ethan has led our team over the last half a dozen years to do SAP analysis very, very well. So, Ethan, thanks for being here. Tell us a little bit about the context, if you would like, perhaps how you came to join the AEA team, how long you've been here and what, what your, the early stages of your SAP analysis frustrations look like and how you've overcome them.

Thanks, John, and thanks for having me on. A little bit about me, I have a little bit of a non traditional background in ag. I started in 2016 working at my local extension office in North Platte, Nebraska. From there I did a lot of work in an agroecology lab studying western bean cutworm. And in that I got to see how monoculturing systems worked and, you know, some of the pros and cons of it. And from working in that, I was able to get a job in Yakima Valley, Washington, which led me to my, my SAP experience, my initial SAP dilemma, if you will. I was working for a 1500 acre hot farm, working with my R D director at the time to do SAP analysis. And the way I did it is a little bit different than how we work with Nova Crop Control. I was getting the SAP, processing the SAP, entering the SAP and analyzing the SAP. I, I would do roughly right.

You were, you were doing, you were.

Doing all of that SAP work right there on the farm. You were not sending it to a lab.

Yes, yep. I was pretty blessed to be able to have a facility with a little lab that had all the tools I needed to facilitate that whole process. So I was typically doing 50 blocks a week over the course of the summertime. So when I did the math, like in a season I would do 700 samples and of that 700 samples, you know, that's an old and a new leaf. So that's 1400 leaf leaf sample bags. And what I would do 1400 unique samples.

Now those, those 50 blocks that you.

Were running, were those the same 50 blocks every week, the same 50 fields every week, or are those unique?

Nope, those would all be that. It would be on a consistent weekly basis, different varieties, different areas, different soils. So yeah, that, that. From that, I would take those bags and I would use like a hydraulic press or a hash press, if you will, with a puck. And I would get the SAP and I'd put them into little petri type dishes. So I would do. Or tubes, I guess I would say. So for each bag, I would do three tubes of the SAP. Okay. And so, so that way you had three for a standard deviation, so you could have an idea of, you know, how accurate it was. And from that I would use 6 lacui meters and one for tractometer, so to do bricks. And so by the end of the season, in one season, I would do roughly 29,000 data points that I would enter.

That sounds fun. If you're, if, if you're the type of person for which that is fun.

Well, it makes you realize you got to figure out how to do things effectively. And so that's just what I did. It was long hours and it was, it was interesting to get to see the crop develop over the season and get to see the results being utilized in the field. And I, that's where I learned how, you know, I think there's some validity to SAP analysis. And that's along that same time frame is when I met with some AEA reps and learned about what you guys did. And then that's how I got on from there to work out here in the pnw.

Ethan, you can't call us you guys anymore.

Oh, yeah, that, that's fair. That's fair.

Us.

Us as a team and the team in the pnw. When I started, there was three of us. And you know, initially we were doing I, that I was trained on and the ways that our team was doing SAP. And as our branch grew, it evolved more and more into doing more and more samples. So there was a need from my operations perspective to figure out how to effectively, you know, manage the SAP. And so depending upon the crop, whether you are a row crop or you're an orchard crop, you know, determining the number of, you know, samples that you're going to take in a season, whether it's bi weekly or monthly, and with that, determining, you know, if there's anything in particular besides just doing that rotation, if there's anything that comes up in the season, you know, if there's a weaker section in a block, potentially doing some kind of different SAP sampling procedure with that. So from that is how I started to coordinate myself with growers, working with their schedules, managing those timelines typically surrounded around, you know, critical points of influence and understanding the timing that we're going to need to get the samples done. And so yeah, once we have an intake of all that information, that's when I first, I was just doing it by myself. And as we grew and grew and grew and went from, you know, pulling samples for a couple of larger acreages to, you know, doing more widespread across, you know, the Idaho, Oregon, Washington area. And that's when we grew the team and I started to hire on more techs and train them in the way in which we do it. And I think it really helped to get over that hurdle. You know, when you have somebody to help you out doing this app analysis and showing you whether it's, you know, helping manage that by being on farm with that service or just having a guiding hand to walk through the process of getting SAP.

So what, Ethan, what does your, what does your process look like as a team? Today you have a team of SAP technicians helping you and supporting you. What does, what does a typical week in the life of a SAP collection technician look like?

Well, to start it off, it's early. It's very, very early. You know, there's some mornings where these guys are getting up 2:33 in the morning to get on site, you know, right as the sun comes up. And you know, we'll typically, we'll get an intake from the growers and message back and forth like, oh, what's your spray schedule look like? What do we, you know, what's going on? When can we come in a week prior and then setting up that schedule for the next week and work, getting that all teed up for them. Yeah, early, early mornings, getting on site, pulling Sat from about 5:15 to 9 in the morning. Our field tech.

So you have about a four, you have about a four hour window every day that you're targeting.

Yeah. And so at first, you know, we could, we could get, you know, maybe a dozen blocks, 15 blocks. But the way we've, I've been able to train these guys on and execute these rotations now we're able to get roughly 20 to 25 in a day and depending that's per person, that's per team. So typically they're in teams of two or three. Sometimes, you know, if it's a relatively large acreage like, for example, you know, let's say we have to do 40 to 50 blocks in a day at a particular acreage. We'd have two guys in a truck and then one person on a quad. So you'd have a team of three. So one person's on the quad going and pulling SAP in different areas, while the other two work together. Typically the lead field tech is on that quad on his own, managing that. And so then by the end of the day, what would have taken us two days, typically, we can now get down to one, which really helps to expedite the process of getting that SAP, getting that data, and then making an informed decision on, you know, what we need to be applying.

So what are the, what are the tricks that you've learned to utilize for peak efficiency? Like how do you go about pulling? How did you shift from 15 samples in four hours to 20 to 25 samples in four hours?

We would, the, what I had done in the past is typically we would target specific areas in a block like we would in the, in the past. We would do, oh, we're gonna always go in this northeast section or the southwest section of the block. Now it's to the point we are flagging, dropping pins down on blocks. So it is very straightforward. When we look on our mapping system, we know the route we're going to go. We, we know roughly how long the particular crops going to take. You know, an apple can take, you know, anywhere from five to seven minutes. Blueberries, depending upon the size of the crop, can take a little bit longer. And so, yeah, just being able to coordinate logistically at these acreages and knowing the routes and knowing the best ways to get around the ranch in a, in an effective way, you know, not ping ponging back and forth across the acreage was critical. And training these guys on and having the same people doing the same rotation, not only was it consistent for the collection, but I feel like it's more consistent with the data too. You know, you have the same person picking the same way every time, and I think that helps to keep static out of the data over the course of the season.

So how many, what is the, what's the scope of your overall SAP collection efforts look like? You mentioned a team can do 20 to 25 samples in a morning. How many samples are you typically collecting in a year across the three state area that you mentioned?

So this year we are doing on a bi weekly and monthly basis roughly 300 blocks. And in the past, I think it's been about that maybe a Little bit more, maybe a little bit less. It's definitely grown since I first started. And what, what's been interesting has been trying to figure out the best ways of going about expanding our region and expanding the, the scale of where we're going. You know, typically our guys are going anywhere from driving anywhere from an hour and a half to upwards of three hours to get to places. So figuring out how to. To coordinate with growers in a particular region to get that all done for the, for the sake of our logistic purposes. So that way we're consistent, able to perform, you know, well throughout the course of the season. And having that, having that all uniform throughout the season, trying to get guys to collaborate. And it's another good way to have folks know, like, hey, you know, like, there's other people in your region that's pulling SAP. So I think that's important from a community perspective.

So once you wrap up SAP collection in a given day, roughly 9am what happens after that? How do you care for the samples and how do you get them to the lab efficiently and effectively? And then in addition, you're working not just with growers where you're actually doing this, the sample collection, but you're also facilitating other samples getting to the lab as well, right?

Yep, that is correct. Depending upon where it's at in the region, we are, we are streamlining shipping for those further locations. So typically, when we set up SAP and those initial consultant meetings, you know, we'll determine if it's something we're able to pull, and if not, when we get the SAP set up, we send them a package that includes insulated liners, boxes, ice packs, and all the information you need to pull that particular crop. Like, typically, you know, we'll send an SOP out of, like, what type of growth we're trying to pull in terms of when we're done on site, you know, we're keeping this stuff in a cooler the entire time. From once it's picked in the field to once we get to lab, it's been, you know, on ice, getting it to our facility, you know, we'll stick it in the, in the fridge and keep it there if other things arise. But typically, yeah, we're just keeping it on ice all the way throughout, from the moment it gets out of the field to when we ship to our shipping hubs to get it to the Netherlands. And typically when we ship it, it'll, you know, we're picking priority mailing systems that allow us to get it to Europe within two to three days and then it's sampled by Nova crop and typically results can get there within five days. Like if we pull the sample and sent it out on a Monday, you should get results on a Friday.

Interesting. So there's fairly rapid turnaround from 11. Is that what is the, what's the consistency or the repeatability in which you get that turnaround?

You know, it kind of just depends on the time of the, the time in the week when you send it.

Do holidays throw a wrench into that frequently?

Oh absolutely. Whether it be Liberation Day or Ascension Day or whatever, you know, all the holidays that they have over there, those can jam some things up and depending upon the day of the week that you ship it, you know, like I'd really prefer like if a grower was going to send in a sample, if they could get it to me on a Friday or a Monday, that is ideal for the best shipping time. I think the middle of the week can sometimes jam things up with that, that weekend in between. But for the most part we can, we can get some pretty good turnaround if things are shipped at the, the most ideal times of the week.

And how, what is the level of ease or difficulty for the growers? If when you are in the cases where you are not providing this sample collection services and the growers are collecting the samples themselves and shipping them out, how difficult is it to get those, to get the transportation service providers to show up and to pick up the samples in a timely manner and get them expedited.

So some of the larger acreages, they already have so much traffic coming in and out of their facility. And so those set up times where they already are having, you know, a provider come by every day anyways, not too bad for those guys. A little bit further out from that, yes, you will need to figure out a way to get it to a logistic hub where you're shipping from and plan to plan accordingly around that and making sure you have enough time or you a time in the day to to get that done to be have it sent to a logistics center.

What are some of the, what are some of the common mistakes that you've observed people make? Or maybe a different take on that question is what. Where are the easy opportunities to really improve the sample collection process and the.

Transportation process in terms of the sample collection? It's always wise to have a scale of some kind. The last thing a grower wants to see after going through all this work to acquire this data is you get low OM results. And so just making sure you're collecting enough biomass in the field to, to negate that because, you know, some of these nutrients that we're measuring, you know, they're measured in one part per million, you know, and if you've only, if a sample requires you to have at least 80 grams of biomass and you only have 30, you know, that can, that can be an issue. And in terms of shipping, just making sure you're choosing, you know, at least two day shipping, you know, you don't want something to sit over the weekend and so you just want to make sure you're, you're sending that to our facility in a timely manner. I think is the two big things.

What, what, do you have any final words of advice or are there any important topics that we should have talked about that we've missed talking about?

The big thing is about this is, I would say is if you're curious about SAP, you should definitely try it. And if you're going to try it, you should do it early and often. Kind of like investing, you're investing in your acreage, right? And so the earlier on in the season, the more chance you have to really impact your crop in a positive way. And so I think, you know, if you're going to try it, you know, it's all right to do it mid season, but I think you should really make it a point to, to do it early on. And then once you start getting that data and collecting it over time, you're gonna, you're gonna find that from year to year you're gonna be able to see the trends in your SAP. And that is ultimately going to affect your bottom line with what you're applying, what you should be applying and what you should not be.

So, yeah, I definitely, I definitely echo that, Ethan. I think the, this is just my personal perspective or bias and opinion, if you will. I, I see SAP analysis is partially an agronomic management tool and it's a very important one. And it's also partially a psychological tool that it provides reassurance, particularly if we're making significant nutrient management changes. If we're really starting to manage nitrogen differently, manage potassium differently on some various crops than having that reassurance. And actually having the data that shows us that we are on the right track and that we're not making absolutely stupid management decisions is so valuable. And it's also, I think my personal preference would be I would prefer to see fewer growers collect on fewer representative blocks, but then do it more frequently. You'll learn a lot more from data points every two weeks than you will from three per season.

Right. I agree. You're going to miss where some of those ups and downs are and when those mountains and valleys in your data set. You're definitely missing out if you're not doing it consistently. I've noticed.

Awesome.

Well, Ethan, thank you for all the great work that you do in leading our team and for the thousands of SAP samples that you collect together. And thank you for being here and for sharing your information with everyone else. You're doing awesome work. Thank you much.

The team at AEA and I are dedicated to bringing this show to you because we believe that knowledge and information is the foundation of successful regenerative systems. At aea, we believe that growing better quality food and making more money from your crops is possible. And since 2006, we've worked with leading professional growers to help them do just that. At aea, we don't guess. We test, we analyze and we provide recommendations based on scientific data, knowledge and experience. We've developed products that are uniquely positioned to help growers make more money with regenerative agriculture. If you are a professional grower who believes in testing instead of guessing, someone who believes in a better, more regenerative way to grow, visit advancingecoag.com and contact us to see if AEA is right for you. Thank you for listening and we look forward to working with you.