Podcast Short #8: Sap Analysis Insights and Strategies with Rachelle Moss

Hi, friends, this is John. Welcome to the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast. We're here today with another one of our short episodes and I wanted to follow up the conversation we had a couple of weeks ago with Ethan Darling to talk about the next stage of the SAP analysis process and what it looks like inside aea. So I'm here today with Rachelle Moss who is going to give us some insights into the process that she uses and the process that our team uses to evaluate SAP analysis reports that come back, particularly when you're getting dozens of them in a single day, and how we make recommendations from that and how that fits into the overall farm system plan and the overall agronomic system. So, Rochelle, thank you for being here today. Thank you for being willing to share all of your experiences when you get as we often have growers who are collecting samples. This is obviously a process that happens every couple of weeks, but it's very common to get this onslaught of where you're waiting for SAP analysis results to come in and then one day you'll get 50 or 100 of them all at one shot or maybe more. How do you manage that? What does that process look like for you?

Yes, it's definitely like a surprise Christmas. It's sometimes not on the same day as you know, so so many gifts can come in very sporadically and usually all at once. So typically what that looks like is you get, you know, an abundance of these and they get put into graphs and sent out to the growers. We have account managers that are managing that process very well for us. And I know we're working on some automation to get that sent out to our growers. But that's typically the first step in what's being sent out is a lot of times growers are getting a calendar invite. My, me personally, I send out calendar invites as soon as I get SAP analysis in. So my growers can check a time in my calendar and their calendar and, and then we can set that up. Some of my high end growers are have a weekly call with me so that SAP analysis that comes in generally, unless they need the results prior to that weekly call, that that might just be all formatted and ready to go for that call that week.

What does the, when you describe growers getting formatted SAP analysis results, what does formatting mean? What, what is, how are those formatted results different from what they would get from the lab directly?

Great question. So we have our own graphs that have optimums and I, I believe in our growers really love that we have the optimums are in a dark blue and then there's kind of a secondary optimum levels in there. So that we can tell very quickly by just visualizing on a, and a bar chart where, where those levels of each nutrient are supposed to be. And for their crop, whereas Nova Crop Control, their bar graphs come back and they are all just their, their format matting is just in a dark green and light green and doesn't have the optimums very clearly specified. We can also put on those graphs up to four different fields to look at at a time. We have the option to do graphing over time, which is also another really great way to look at things over the season's time. And then we also have the option to put these in a grid format, which is probably right now my favorite. Especially for those grid growers that have an abundance of SAP analysis that are coming in, you can very quickly look just at a glance and see whether, you know, manganese might be overall on 20 fields low. And you're able to just look at that at a quick glance and see trends without fumbling through, you know, 20 different pieces of paper and trying to figure that out.

So the, the reports that are being formatted and are being sent to the grower, you said you can have as many as four different reports on a single page. So I'm assuming this is the PDF reports, the single pages that growers are used to seeing. So you can have four of those on a single page instead of one that are all. And you can clearly see the contrast and the similarities between those. But then the grid formatting. Is the grid formatting something that gets shared with growers or is that a tool that you use to make very rapid assessments of what's going on in and over overall across an entire operation?

Almost always it's something that, if, if I'm utilizing that most of the time I'm sharing that with my growers. It's usually in a. We have a document that is used, a spreadsheet that's used here at a. That we do a lot of SAP recommendations, we record foliar applications and then we also look at that grid format. That's what I utilize for growers that are doing an abundance of SAP over, you know, different crops, different fields. And it can be very, it can be a lot of information. And so this is something we can look at really quickly. And the grower has access to that Google sheet and we're able to look, look at it at any time. Or they can also update it. If they're doing an application or maybe they're were short on something for a recommendation for a foliar fertigation and they're able to update that for me so that the next time we're looking at the SAP analysis, it, you're, you're not having to go through all of the questions of what was applied and what wasn't applied. And, and it's all just right there and easy to just kind of jump in this app and just get going.

You know, Rachelle, what I, what I found interesting about the process that you use is that when you said you, you share this formatted report with the grower and then what happens next? What happens next was not that you made a set of recommendations, but that you actually set up a phone call or had a scheduled meeting with the grower. Why, why do, why follow that pathway instead of just immediately producing a set of written recommendations? Or maybe a related or parallel question is what is it that happens in the meeting? What are, what's the type of information exchange that you're hoping for?

And I, I should say that sometimes I will have kind of a set because most of the time before I'm actually having the phone call with a grower, I do have kind of a, maybe a pre, recommendations, preset of recommendations before we're having that phone call. But that phone call is really diving in to see a lot of growers of ours are not, not right next door and we may not have been been able to visit the field in the last, you know, week or so. And we're getting these, this set of analysis back. And it's, the paper doesn't always match up with what you think the plant is going to look like. So it's very important for us to dive in and see what is the grower seeing. Is there any pest disease showing up? You know, are the plants just rapidly growing? Because sometimes we'll see SAP dive down. And that's not always a bad indication. It might be actually a really, really great indication that the plants are really just thriving and, and utilizing nutrients all at the same time. So there's a lot of pieces that you kind of have to conduct a little interview of the plants via the grower each time to, to really look at, at what's happening.

And when you, okay, you just mentioned, you just described that sometimes you have rapid vegetative growth and so that translates to an expectation of reduced SAP concentrations of nutrients. But when, when you have growers describing the presence of diseases, the presence of insect Pressure. How do you, how does that translate into the set of recommendations that you're making?

It changes the focus, you know, the focus of what we're the obviously we can't apply the kitchen sink to budget is always something that's definitely the forefront of our minds and making, you know, profits for the grower. So if there is disease pressure, we're, we're looking at specific nutrients and excesses and imbalances to correct those. And that's our first, you know, first goal to attack and use nutrients as our own sort of pesticide. So that would be the first, the first thing that we attack at that point, you know, and it's always looking at where's the plan, where what, what stage is it at and what's most important right now for us to apply.

So what is the, when you get the SAP analysis results back, what is the scope of recommendations look like that you are making to it to a grower? Are there, are they usually full year applications? Are there other types of recommendations? Like what does the full scope of what the grower gets out of that conversation? What does that look like?

Oh wow. Depends on the day. But it's, it's always, you know, it's always what they are capable of doing. So if we're making a recommendation for an application, it's going to be for foliar, it might be for direct irrigation, it might be for fertigation, it might be for a plant or solution, it might be for a seed inoculant. So it's really depending on what they're kind of where they're at and what we're trying to accomplish, what part of the season they're in, they're transitioning to something else. I was just going over some garlic and onions and tomatoes with someone that hasn't worked with those with us before. And so we're talking about are they seed, are they transplanting, you know, how are they transplanting? Can we do, do things in the greenhouse? How are we going to attack this and where is budget fitting? And then just looking at the timing of applications. So there's scopes of things that we do with our products in house, there's things that they may be getting locally, there's amendments, you know, soil amendments. So if geographically they don't have the sorts of nutrients that just to start off with, you know, we're definitely making recommendations and looking at, at that as part of our recommendations. Cover crops, you know, sometimes we'll, we'll get asked, you know, a lot of things about COVID crops and interplantings and so, and, and if you're going to, you know, if we're, we're going to need to use, you know, different sources of ways to attack pests and disease, you know, sometimes we're looking at how to lessen things. What's the best of the evils? You know, if we want to call those, maybe not evils, but just, you know, the lesser evil of things. We want to use nutrients as best we can, but sometimes we have to reach in our pocket. So, yeah, there's, there's quite a, there's quite an array of different things that we go over in a conversation and sometimes they have nothing to do with, you know, that might be water quality, if things are not really operating well, dive into water, you know, if there's a lot of salts in the area. And, and yeah, all the, all the things.

You know, I find this interesting. One of the things that I've spoken about in presentations, but I don't recall if I've discussed it very much here on the podcast yet is, is how the reports that we get back from SAP analysis are not just useful information to measure this or to manage this year's crop, but they're particularly valuable for future agronomic recommendations. And so as, as you are working with growers, as you're having these conversations, how many of your recommendations include how we might manage things differently in the future by addressing trace minerals in the soil instead of being dependent on a foliar application, for example?

I, I almost feel like, especially for the first year and for those growers that are new to us, that the SAP analysis in the first year is almost always being made. It's more important to be utilized for the next year's applications and what we're going to plan on for the next year, because everything that foliars are really great at doing things in season, but they're really more so of a, you know, quick, quick band aids and quick ways to get the plant moving things and, and in season type things. Whereas, you know, if we're, we're addressing boron all season long and really just pouring on, we probably need to put some soluble out, you know, in spring, you know, and make sure the timing of such is, is, you know, utilized well or, you know, calcium is an issue. If we have excessive sodium, we may be using, you know, high rates of gypsum to, to kind of counteract that. So there's a lot of different things that we may see in the SAP this year that we weren't moving as well as we thought we were. And we're having a conversation, you know, as we go or maybe at the end of the season and how we might best attack that and, and sometimes we just come in too late. So we're, we're talking with growers mid season and we weren't able to talk about putting some spring amendments down or the soil primer down and inoculating with biology and, and a lot of times it's, yeah, let's, let's maybe not put an abundance of this or that out in the fall because you're really not getting your dollars worth and maybe we can put that in a planter solution and get the best, you know, best dollar.

So when, when you think about the relationships that you have with growers over multiple seasons, you said a bit ago that often with first year growers and with SAP analysis, you're thinking more about second year applications of how to manage boron and gypsum and other trace mineral applications during the off season. From a soil application perspective, how do the recommendations that you're making evolve over a several year period? Do you find that in the second year, third year, as you address some of these issues that the, from a soil perspective, the, the types of foliar applications and so forth shift and change as well? What does that look like?

Yes, they definitely shift and change. And you, you can always see when, you know, biologically we're getting activity because you'll see a lot of the micronutrients start to flourish without putting these continual applications of foliar. So and, and I always mention that in the first, you know, first year when we're working with someone, you may see, may see like, wow, we're really not getting some, you know, as big of movement and we, and fixing it just right away. But really the magic really starts happening in that second and third year. We start seeing things start leveling out. And if we're putting on post harvest applications, that is to, to me that's, that's the most fun if you get to start with someone and they're starting with a post harvest application where you can really, you know, do a lot of influencing on the bud development and things for the next year. And that really drives things down and not having to move things. You know, I'm in a fourth, fifth, fifth season with a blueberry grower and it was so funny this year. We're always tweaking things and fine tuning in these. He's like every year the berries are, you know, larger and better and this Year we're looking at last year's stuff and just kind of tweaking, tweaking our program. And the first SAP we come back when we're usually, you know, still kind of tweaking a little bit, and I said, you know what? It's crazy, but I really don't think I'd change one thing. And he goes, I agree. I think, I think we're good. So it was just, you know, we got to a point where, like, you know, you're always trying to just fine tune. And I thought, well, we fine tune so much. We just don't have to do anything. We just work on.

Yeah.

So that, that's really just, you know, just so great. It's, it's fun. That's. It's. It's good. It's always fun stuff. When you get into that as, as.

You'Ve worked with growers for multiple seasons, actually, I'd love for, for context, can. Can you tell us a little bit about the scope of the different crops that you work with? What are all the different types of plants that you're working with and crops you're. And also the question behind that is, what is it that you find? What do the growers really value about the conversations? If you have standing weekly calls with them or if you're having a meeting with them immediately after SAP analysis results come through, what is the feedback that you get from the growers about what they really like to experience in those conversations?

Yeah, I love when people ask me what I, you know, well, what kind of crops do you work with? That's, that's just, you know, friends, family, random people that don't understand what regenerative agriculture is, you know, that are living in downtown St. Louis and haven't been outside pavement. So there's, you know, that, that, that aspect I work with, I've had the pleasure of working with a. And abundance of different things. So I've worked with the Southwest team and had the. Had orchards and vineyards and, you know, I've worked with cotton and peanuts and onions and garlic and lots of veggie growers in, you know, the north central region. So that brings its own abundance of things. So anything from carrots to celery roots, cabbage, and, you know, squash, you just. I could go through and just name everything, you know, of course, beans and wheat and soy.

The short version is 50 plus different crops. @.

Least. There's a lot. Yeah, it's probably easier for me to name what I don't work with. I named all of them, but it's always a lot of fun to work with something new, too. I, I get a kick out of that. And your second question was, what.

Do. What do the. What do the growers. What feedback do the growers have for, you know, what is it that they particularly value about the conversations you have with them and particularly as the relationship.

Progresses? Yeah, I think the. The biggest thing is just they. They learn a lot from our. Our experiences. You know, we have a team that shares, you know, so it's not just me that's sharing things with a grower. If we. I'll use cotton, for example. We have a lot of cotton growers, and there's a lot of us that work with cotton, and we share our experiences with one another on the team. And then we also share data and we share, you know, we had a really amazing cotton meeting of the minds, you know, with you, John. And so there's things like that that happen and we dive in and I think they get that knowledge from us, you know, just via each phone call that we do. You know, we. A lot of times, you know, the very first SAP analysis we run through, I feel like people are like, oh, my gosh, you know, like, I'm never going to learn all of this. And then by, you know, we. We pick and choose where we're at in a SAP analysis and what stage we are in the plant's growth. And you try not to overwhelm someone and tell them every single thing you're seeing. So it's just really the main things that we're trying to work on right then and just teaching them why, the whys of what we're doing. And I think that that's the biggest thing is, you know, maybe if they're learning from each phone call, they're able to, you know, absorb that information. And I, I think that's the biggest thing that, that I've heard from growers is just learning alongside.

Us. And when the. In the case of the blueberry grower who you've now been working with, this is your fifth season, does that. How does the relationship evolve over time? Do you now need to have fewer conversations with him? Is. Is he largely. Is he in a space where he's able to manage largely on his own after he's learned so much from working with you, what does, what does that look like? And what do growers prefer to do over.

Time? Yeah, everybody is so different. He's in, in particular, has always been very strongly independent, and we've always done kind of our initial planning off Season. So we do that with a lot of our growers. We're planning for the next season and talking about what to change and talking about what the applications and our budget and what we're going to be doing for amendments. All those things. Right. And then throughout the season, we, we talk through each SAP analysis that comes in and then the applications and changing those. But really in between there, you know, the, the line's always open, so he will ask questions in between if he's seeing something or he had. He had a particular area of strawberries that just got kind of flooded out. They had an abundance of rain. So we were talking through some, some ways we could kind of give them a short, quick burst of energy. So there's always questions that pop up. But I would say it does lessen over time because you just get in a rhythm of things. We have specific timings on the applications, and when we get this app in, it just kind of keeps rolling very efficiently. Once you start working with us, I think the first, it's. It's always a challenge the first year, trying to figure out how. Because it's a change, you know. Right. Anything that's a change is always a little bit.

Challenging. What do you find that you enjoy the most about this process of constant touch points and the SAP analysis touch points with the.

Grower? I would say, you know, my, my favorite thing is always the relationship with the grower and just being a part of their organization and watching, you know, you're changing, you're changing the quality of, of their, their crops. You know, so if they're growing fruit, you're changing the quality of their fruit. And I have another berry grower. I love berries. Um, I love all, all things, but I do have a sweet spot for berries. I had another berry grower that shared a picture with me this season, and when I first started with him, he had no, no berries. So he was like, can I just. Can you, like, just help me get some. Some harvest so that, you know, I can operate. And so the very. The next year, he actually had a very small amount of berries. And he was so excited. You know, I actually have something to harvest. And then this year, he said, he said, so he was. Had so many berries, he's actually having to figure out how to, you know, get his operation up and going so that, you know, people are coming to pick them so that him and his wife aren't doing it. And they really do this on the side. And so that was just, you know, the picture of the, the amount of berries that he has this year was just like, oh, my gosh, you know, someone that didn't have anything to pick and comes to you. And so that's. It's just rewarding to be able to help growers, you know, meet. Meet their goals and. And just be a part of their.

Organization. Wonderful. Well, Rochelle, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for all the work that you do with, with the growers and for the wonderful relationships that you develop. And I really, we really appreciate you on the team, and I know that many of our growers do as well. So thank you for being here and thank you for being willing to share your.

Experience. Thank you for having me, John. It was my.

Pleasure. The team at AEA and I are dedicated to bringing this show to you because we believe that knowledge and information is the foundation of successful regenerative systems. At aea, we believe that growing better quality food and making more money from your crops is possible. And since 2006, we've worked with leading professional growers to help them do just that. At aea, we don't guess. We test. We analyze, and we provide recommendations based on scientific data, knowledge, and experience. We've developed products that are uniquely positioned to help growers make more money with regenerative agriculture. If you are a professional grower who believes in testing instead of guessing, someone who believes in a better, more regenerative way to grow, visit advancingecoag.com and contact us to see if AEA is right for you. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to working with.