Social Impacts of Regenerative Agriculture with Gabe Brown

Hi friends, I'm John Kemp. Hosting this podcast. I am passionate about developing regenerative agriculture systems that improve soil health, produce crops that are completely resistant to diseases and insects, and produce fruit of such an exceptional quality that we can have a legitimate conversation about growing food as medicine. I've discovered that there are many people with incredible knowledge and information about soil and plant systems and how to develop regenerative agriculture systems. However, much of this knowledge and this information is scattered. It's found all over the place, some of it has been published in peer reviewed publications, but there are many incredible stories and a lot of knowledge that has not been published and that hasn't been shared with many people. I started Advancing eco Agriculture in 2006 to bring this knowledge together in a more coherent fashion and incorporate it into products and growing systems that growers can easily put into practice. It's my personal mission to have these regenerative agricultural systems become adopted globally and become the mainstream, the status quo against which all other growing systems are compared. To help achieve this goal, I want to share the knowledge that we have learned in the last decade and make it available to everyone while we have developed products at AEA that embody the principles of regenerative agriculture systems and make them easier for growers to apply this knowledge and these principles can be applied anywhere and when they are applied properly, they will always increase farm profitability and resilience to climate stress. If you have any questions, suggestions, comments or ideas, topics that you would like for me to discuss, Please connect on LinkedIn or on Twitter where my username is visionbuilder7 or you can also email me at john kempf.com I would very much like to hear from you and to hear your feedback. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and thank you very much for listening. Enjoy the show.

Greetings friends and welcome to the Regenerative Agriculture Podcast. On this podcast we explore the science and practical application of regenerative agriculture ecosystem, how to regenerate soil health, crop health and quality and increase farm profitability. Our goal is to give you clear, easy to understand and actionable information that you can implement on your operations. In this episode, I'm very honored and very excited to welcome Gabe Brown to our show. Gabe, thank you very much for joining us.

My pleasure. Good to be here John.

So Gabe, you have a fascinating story about the work that you have done on your farm, the successes that you've had, and some of the changes that you've been able to make over the years. What are some of your most memorable Moments that led you to where you are today.

Well, I guess it all started back. I was born and raised in town. I wasn't from a farm or ranch, but an interest at a young age and happened to marry a gal whose parents had a farm and very conventional heavy tillage and use of synthetics, etc. But worked into that and was able to purchase it in 1991. But because I was not born and raised on a farm, I didn't have any of these preconceived notions. So I was open to new ideas. And I had a 1991. My wife and I purchased part of the operation from her parents in 1993. I had a good friend of mine in northern part of North Dakota who was no till. And he convinced me and it didn't take a lot of convincing because it just made sense to me in our rather semi arid environment. We were trying to save moisture. He said, Gabe, you need to go no till in order to save time and moisture. And that just made sense. But he also said, I'm going to give you a little advice. If you do it, he said, sell all your tillage equipment, then you're never tempted to go back. And I actually did that. I had to sell my tillage equipment equipment in order to be able to afford the no till drill we purchased. And so that started me down this path. But the biggest change in our life came about the years 1995 through 98. We lost two crops in a row to hail, then one to drought. And then the fourth year in a row we lost a crop to hail again. And I tell people those four years of natural disasters were absolute hell to go through. But they were absolutely the best thing that could have happened to me of the fact that financially bank wasn't going to loan us any more money. I had to learn how am I going to make a living off this land without the use of all of these synthetic inputs. And so those couple of factors were the biggest driving force in our move towards regenerative agriculture.

What were the key pieces that you changed during and after that four year period that were substantially different from the way that you've been farming before?

Right? Well, when you think about the first year, 1995, we lost 100% of our crop to hail. It occurred the day before I was going to start combining our spring wheat crop. Spring wheat was our major cash crop at the time. Well, we, we all of a sudden laid all this biomass down on the soil surface. So we got all this armor protecting the soil. Then 1996 come along, same thing. Lost 100% of the crop to hail again. Again, laying down tremendous biomass. And we're leaving all that, that soil intact. We're not that that soil ecosystem. Well, because that hailstorm was so devastating, we didn't even have enough feed for the livestock. So I had to go in and seed like sorghum, Sudan grass and cow peas. And I was intelligent enough to know the value of seeding legumes with grasses and those simple things we can do to benefit production and increase biomass. So I did that. Well, it got to the point where, where we were virtually with no money, couldn't afford to even put up hay. So we turned livestock into those acres and grazed. So this series of natural disasters was actually the best thing that could have happened from a soil ecosystem, soil funk standpoint, because we were lowering synthetic inputs which, which obviously led to not as much carbon being burned through because the overuse of particularly nitrogen fertilizer, then we weren't applying phosphorus fertilizers. So that led to up in mycorrhizal fungi along of course, with no soil disturbance. So all these little things that nature was forcing us to do was actually advance the soil function. So it was a period of events. And I tell people very honestly, I had no idea what a cover crop was back then. I had no idea about soil health, soil function, but just due to circumstances, we were going down that path.

You've mentioned a couple of different pieces that you worked on that you incorporated, perhaps not by intention, rather by default, that improves soil health. No till cover crops, livestock. A question that I've been asked on a number of conversations recently is many people are beginning to recognize the value and the importance of COVID crops, but there's still a lot of hesitation around incorporating livestock into agriculture ecosystems. So the question that I would have for you is, in your estimation, how important do you believe it is to incorporate livestock to the overall ecosystem?

Well, that comes back to. Let's step back and take a look at how these particular. These fairy soils were formed. You know, they were formed over eons of times, large of time, with large herds of bison, elk being moved across the landscape by predators, trampling, grazing, and then defecating and urinating. And we had, you know, this natural nutrient cycling occurred and then the animals would move on long periods of rest and recovery, which allowed for maximum amount of carbon to be pumped into the soil. And you know, soil health revolves around carbon cycle. And so that's how our prairie soils were formed. Well, look what we've done in our monoculture type mindset, we've removed the diversity and we've removed the animals from the landscape and now we're simply not pumping as much carbon into the soil. Now, can we advance soil health without livestock? Absolutely. I tell people I have several quarters of land that we're just not able to graze livestock on, surrounded by housing developments and no water. And it's just not worth the hassle to incorporate livestock onto those acres. We've still significantly advanced the soil health on those acres. However, we will never have those soils to the point where we that have the soils that we're able to graze livestock on. And the, the main thing, there's many benefits of having livestock on, on cropland, but the one thing I think producers are really missing out on is the Prof. Of doing so. I ran some numbers after 2016 and we added $220 net return per acre on the acres, cropland acres we were able to graze livestock on. And that's significant. You know, with margins where they are in commodity agriculture today, you know, what producer wouldn't want $220 more per acre? Now, I'm not saying all producers will want to go through the things we're doing with livestock, but in saying that, they're missing a major, you know, I tell people, if you have the ability, you know, cover crops are an absolute no brainer from a soil health standpoint. But if you can integrate livestock, that's a way to convert those cover crops into dollars. And I tell producers, even if you don't want to do it, there's many young people in the communities around the country who would love the opportunity and chance to run some livestock and enter agriculture that way. Why not benefit your resource, help a young person and integrate some livestock under your crop plan.

That's a great idea for incorporating the next generation. And also when you talk about the economics and the profitability, an additional $220 net per acre, isn't that a larger net than most growers are getting from producing corn?

Well, yes. On our operation, we sell very few commodities. We're doing value added direct to consumers simply because of the dollar return we can generate by doing so. But I just shake my head at commodity ag culture today and I asked the question. I have no desire to produce commodities and I really don't understand why people do. There's just no money in it unless there's a major drought somewhere or some external force. We, we tie our hands, so to speak, when we produce commodity. And I'm just Obviously, by talking to me, you'll get to understand I am, I am not a proponent of the current production model. I think it leaves too many decisions in other than our own. I tell people we are profitable every year on our operation because we set our own price. We take that out of somebody else's hands, put it in our own. So when, when you're able to do that, that just really adds to your bottom line and increases profitability significantly.

When I think about the implications of what you are describing, there is this entire industrial ecosystem that has evolved to handle commodity crops. When you think of all of the combines and equipment, equipment, manufacturing, logistics, grain elevators and feedlots that have all evolved to accommodate this commodity cropping mindset, what you're essentially describing is displacing has the potential, in my understanding to displace practically all of that, or at least the great majority of it, by bringing livestock back onto the land to graze crops and cover crops directly on the soil. And that that has some substantial ramifications, obviously not only for long term soil health on a macro level, but also for the agriculture industry as it exists today.

Yes, you're right. And let's be honest, it's not going to change overnight, it's going to change slowly over time. However, the movement we're seeing, and I spend a lot of my dealing with the human health aspect of production agriculture. And you know, we have a human health crisis in this country. America spends more on health care than any other country in the world. Yet we lead the developed nations in cancer, add, ad, adhd, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, autoimmune diseases, obesity, and the list goes on and on. Well, why is that? Now let's be very honest. I'm not, you know, I'm not in no way blaming at all on farmers and ranch. It's due to our sedentary lifestyle, but, but of it. Farmers and ranchers have to accept part of the blame because the nutrient density of the foods that we're producing is a fraction of what it was 50 to 70 years ago. So how are we going to change this downward trend in human health? It has to start with the soil and it has to start with the movement of nutrients through the ecosystem and inevitably ending up in our bodies. Well, you look at what's causing the downward trend in nutrient density in our foods, a lot of it is related to the health of our soil ecosystem that I profess comes about from our industrialized, commoditized mindset. And so if we're going to truly affect Human health. It has to start at the soil level and the ecosystem level and what farmers and ranchers are doing. Okay. Then it gets back to using the principles of a healthy soil ecosystem. Just what I talked about when we started about how we have to do what's necessary to advance the health of our soils, get more nutrients, plant secondary metabolites that are moving through the, through the plant and then inevitably into the human food chain. Well, we're not going to do that with commodity agriculture. And just this past winter here, I've spent a great deal of time with several large organic companies working on regenerative protocols where they are actually driving change on their producers and their producers are going to be paid accordingly do the regenerative practices they do on their operation. And it all comes about because these large companies know that the next real wave that's coming, so to speak, is the focus on human health. So they're going to make more money if they have higher nutrient dense foods. The only way they can get that is by improving the health of the ecosystem. Soil ecosystem. And so it all comes about in a roundabout way. Getting back to our system is broken with commodity industrialized agriculture. You know, farmers and ranchers get it beat into them all. We got to feed the world. Feed the world. Feed the world. Well, the, the, there was some figures released here in December of 2017 that dated we produced enough food on this world last year to feed 200 and, excuse me, to feed 14 billion people. Well, think about that. You know, we have approximately 7.8 billion people in the world, yet we produced enough food to feed 14 billion. So farmers and ranchers are, you know, they're shooting themselves in the foot if they think they got to increase production to feed the world. There's already enough production out there, you know, so the only way you're going to differentiate yourself from everyone else and to increase the value of what you're producing on your operation is you better be producing nutrient dense food. And then you have to set your own prices and be paid for for it. And that's what we're trying to do on our operation. That's what we're encouraging others to do also.

Gabe, you've brought up a number of absolutely fascinating points. There is this idea even today, the numbers that you just shared surprise me a little bit. There's this perception even today that we're not producing enough even for the current world population. And yet you're describing that. In fact, that's not the case. We're overproducing much more than we need. Which essentially would indicate that we don't really, really have a production problem, we have a distribution problem.

And I find that that is exactly right, John. Those figures, you know, enough to feed 14 billion people was the highest I heard. I did find several places that state we've produced enough last year to feed 10 billion people. In saying that there's over a billion people worldwide that go to bed hungry every night and don't have enough food. And it is exactly as you said, it's a distribution problem, it's not a product problem. You know, the other thing we have to be very honest and look at is a lot of what we produce is not going to human food consumption, you know, and, and a lot of it is going obviously towards things like ethanol and then grain to feed cattle. And I will argue that, you know, I tell people I've, I've slaughtered thousands of beef animals and I have yet to see one with a gizzard. So why are we feeding be animals grain? It just, it does not make sense. Now in saying that I'm going to be very honest and tell you I will eat grain fed beef if grass fed isn't available and it's still a highly nutritious, nutrient dense product. But I will certainly would rather be grass finish beef simply because of the health benefits of it and I prefer the taste of it, quite honest. So we have to, we have to look at all of production agriculture, what we're doing. And you know, our soil health sole partnership did a school in eastern Iowa and, and when we do schools in places like that, it absolutely amazes me the mindset of producers in thinking that the only thing they can produce there is corn and beans. The only thing they can produce corn and beans. There's not the infrastructure, there's not the market. And, and I just really get a, I'm disappointed by that quite honestly because that, that shows you how in production agriculture we have such a narrow and we close our thought process to other ops that we have that maybe would make us more money. And I think part of the problem is the current farm program, you know, let's face it, 95 plus percent and that's probably on the light end of cropping. Decisions are based on revenue insurance and what people can make off revenue insurance guarantee themselves. And I quit being involved in any farm programs a number of years ago because for one thing I don't think the American public should be paying and subsidizing my operation. If I can't make it on my own, I shouldn't be doing it. The other thing is why would I want to tie my hand and be limited to what I can do on my operation? For instance, in 20 here near Bismarck, North Dakota, we've gone through a couple very dry years and when we went into planting last spring I had planned on putting more corn in but because we were so dry I switched my crop cropping decisions accordingly. And due to that fact I was able to harvest crops that made me a decent profit last year even though we only had 5.8 inches of rainfall during the growing season. You know, you tie your hands and limit yourself when you're in this commoditized industrialized mindset and producers need to learn how to adapt and observe and change according to condition.

I've been fascinated by the mindset of growers which you just described and referring to what you experienced in Iowa, it's intriguing to me that in the state of Iowa any crop that is not.