Walking the Path of Wholeness Through Physical Pain | Interview with John Prada

Today I will be talking with John Prada, who is a fellow coach in transformational work, primarily wholeness work and core transformation, which are powerful processes for deep change and working through all kinds of issues. Well, today John and I will be talking specifically about physical pain. John is a man who's gone through an enormous amount of physical pain over the years, including PTSD and all kinds of emotional pain as well. So he has been guided with teachers and techniques and mentors and these modalities to experience pain and relating to that pain in a completely different way. So John will speak with— you'll see this beautiful humility and honesty about how these practices, including core transformation and wholeness work helped him access a deeper wholeness and how he continues to walk this path with openness and reverence today. Please stay tuned until the end. We touch on something very, very important, which is that spiritual practice and inner work is not supposed to be about fixing something within ourselves. It can rather be a form of inner hygiene and nourishment for our mental health and emotional health, which then goes into all realms of life to really benefit us in many ways. And also a point that we meant to touch on and forgot to is that including reactions and inner judgments to problems that we have are primarily the first thing that we step towards or reapproach in this personal change, because when we have Something that's saying I shouldn't be this way, or I'm really screwed up, or I'm broken. This is the first layer of tension that's holding us in this kind of calcified suffering. So beginning with the reactions, including all the reactions, is extremely important. And I think John does touch on that today with pain. So let's just go right into it. Let's dive in. And I'm glad you're here. So hello again, and welcome to the Wholeness Wisdom Podcast. Today I'm joined by John Prada, who is a transformational coach and practitioner of Wholeness Work and Core Transformation, along with physical strength training. Am I right on that?

Yeah.

Trainer too. Okay, awesome. So Wholeness Work is a gentle yet powerful method for transformation, and I haven't explicitly described it on this podcast yet, but I I think today we will give a kind of a picture of what its possibilities are, specifically around working with physical pain, because we all experience pain, and sometimes it's helpful to figure out what we can do with physical pain to work through that. Wholeness work is based on the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, and in this conversation today, we're going to explore How wholeness can help us shift out of chronic stress and physical pain by guiding us into more of a direct experience of ourselves. So on John's website, which is very much worth checking out, he shares his personal story of healing, and today we'll talk about how subtle and internal movements can open up the door to relief and more presence. So thank you for joining me, John.

Thank you for having me.

I have a question just to kind of start things off today. I wrote a few down. So what first drew you to inner work, spiritual transformation? I know you share about your sobriety many, many years ago, coming to recovery and searching for healing. So I'm wondering if— what role did that personal journey that you've shared play in leading you to core transformation work and wholeness work?

So I think, first of all, I just want to acknowledge that everything that I'm sharing, uh, I've learned from other really wise, amazing people like Connie Ray Andreas and my uncle and mentor Stephen Josephs. And they've put a lot of time and energy and shared their wisdom with me, and I'm eternally grateful for it. Um, and also from people like you who are also wonderful wounded healers. And, um, it's just really, uh, great to be on this path with you and being able to share this. And my intention for sharing this is so that it's useful and helpful to others. And, uh, I would say, to answer your question, necessity, really. And, um, I, for as long as I can remember, have Uh, struggled with, uh, depression, anxiety, overthinking. Um, and, uh, it's taken me a long time. Uh, I've had a very long and slow recovery, I would say. Um, but I've always been a seeker. I've always had like a curiosity. And I feel like I've always had like a knowing or inherent to me of an awareness of being that wasn't just me. And, and I would say that when I did use drugs and alcohol, I used Um, to completely annihilate myself.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, that was always the goal, was to stop all of the noise and traffic in my head and to not be. And, um, so, and, and also, uh, trying to address pain.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, you know, Connie Ray, uh, somewhere in her literature talks about how people who are addicted berate themselves. And I know for me, I also had a lot of strongly internalized shame, which I've learned also from my trauma coach who I work with, uh, uh, Andrew Bryce. Uh, as his definition of shame is, um, it's like a mystery. It's like having— feeling like there's something inherently wrong with you that's a mystery to you. And for me, I feel like that's, that's caused me— that's motivated me to want to fix things. Uh, even if I don't know what I'm fixing. And, you know, I, I've been in recovery now. I'm sober for over 30 years. I got sober very young. Um, I was looking for a solution to pain and suffering, and drugs and alcohol were Pretty successful early on, but led to really intense mental health issues. I ended up in a drug-induced psychosis when I was in early sobriety and then relapsed and ended up in another psychosis and had a very long, slow recovery.

I think it really speaks to that Seeking for annihilation, to not be, to what most of us go through as people when the noise, the internal noise, all these voices and parts of what they want and what they don't want and what I need to be and what I'm not, all that conditioning happening in what seems to be such a small space, like to just be without that for a moment sounds like bliss. So it, it's easy for me now, and coming from recovery too, to see that those patterns of drinking and drugging and seeking, all these behaviors, it's the same as any attempt to get out of ourselves, to get away from it, to just have some peace.

Yeah, and I feel like it's really common for most. I mean, for— it's like most people have about 70,000 thoughts a day.

Yeah.

And they're not usually all positive and cheerful.

Right.

And, uh, you know, for me, like, I had a lot of perfectionism, a lot of hypervigilance, and I was conditioned to be that way from really horrible verbal abuse and psychological abuse, like, and given the expectation to be perfect or to be excellent or exceptional. And then at the same time told I was stupid or an idiot and not being shown how to do things, but being expected to automatically know how to do things.

That lack of modeling, and then also those really heavy burdens of what we need to be doing and how we're not doing it. Like coming from trauma, it can make that seeking for annihilation the only thing. That we can do.

It definitely— it accelerated that for me. And so I got so— I'm— and so as a result, I ended up getting sober really young. And so as much as painful as that may have been, it was also like a huge gift.

Of course. So we're so glad that you're here.

You know, like that I was able to— that I was able to Um, move through that, and, um—

Can I ask you a question about this?

Yeah.

Because you mentioned getting to a different state, wanting to get to a different state, a different state, to change the state that you were in.

Um, yeah.

You mentioned on your website that wholeness was a kind of catapult that put you into a new plane of consciousness. So how can you describe for us how that, what that changed for you when you began using Wholeness for Self inner work?

I feel like I do say that on my website and it's certainly true, but it was, it, to say it was a catapult makes it sound almost like that it was a very fast, powerful, like, okay. So then, and it was actually a lot more gradual for me. And initially I started off with wholeness work. And then I realized, or Stephen, my uncle, realized that I really had a lot of, uh, trauma work that I needed to do. And so for me, I actually had to go do Core Transformation first.

Excellent.

And then I was able, after working on myself with Core Transformation and, um, and being guided, and I, I was eventually able to get to a place where Wholeness work was like now accessible for me.

That's really how I see it. It works, actually. I'm so happy.

It wasn't— yeah, like there's a, there's a great— like I was— the way that I think about it is like Core Transformation, for me, it was almost like I had guardrails and that I was descending down into the unconscious and there was enough story, meaning, and content For me to be able to, with each piece, understand what was going on and what was wanted and where I was trying to get to. And I still needed that. I needed to be able to understand the beliefs that I had in place and, and, and what I was really trying to achieve. I And then also that I, you know, being sober and in 12-step recovery for a very long time, um, I had this belief that I adopted from a sponsor that was like, I had the kind of mind that would kill me if it didn't need me for transportation. It didn't want me dead, it just wanted me to suffer and be miserable so I would drink. And I really believed that.

That's a scary belief to walk around with.

It is. And to have like this fear that there's a part of me that actively wants me to suffer feels like there's a parasite or, or that it's part of me. And, and then all of the negative aspects that are associated with that, like selfishness, self-pity, self-centeredness, and the lens at which You know, we look at ourselves—

Very negative.

Is very negative and also fear-based. And, and then when you have this strong internalized shame and you're trying to fix something, but you don't really know what it is, it can lead, and it did for me, to a very sort of dogmatic kind of obsessive approach to trying to fix it.

Yeah, that sounds very—

And it involved a lot of willpower and a lot of striving, and it never got me anywhere just because it was always looking at the horizon and it was never able to really just be present. And so when I, when I was introduced to Core Transformation, I was suddenly able to understand that these parts of me that were generating behaviors and thoughts and feelings were actually wanting something really positive for me. And that was a, that was a, that was a huge game changer. And it took some time. It took some time to trusting that and even having all of my parts that were witnessing it trust it and, and being able to, to actually have some hope or belief that, that, that could be true for me when for a lifetime I'd been walking around feeling like there was something inherently wrong with me in it. Or I remember in early sobriety going to a meeting where they shared the Lord's Prayer and hearing, um, and deliver us from evil, and I was like, oh, I don't belong here. Like I'm in, like, that's me.

I'd like to just pause you here. Yeah, to introduce, um, very, very briefly what we mean when we say Core Transformation, because I haven't gone into depth before with this, and it is a sister method developed by the same woman we mentioned earlier, Connie Rae Andreas, who developed the Atlas Work years later. And Core Transformation A pillar of Core Transformation is that every single part of us, every feeling, behavior, or thought that expresses through us is there for a positive reason. It was formed for some reason that is trying to serve us, even if it looks like something very destructive, like drinking, drugging, yelling. acting out, whatever the behavior is that we don't like, we call it a Part, and we work on the premise that it is serving us. It is acting this way in an attempt to get something that will actually help us, a positive purpose. So that's what John was speaking to when he said that kind of gave some hope and a whole new paradigm that it's possible these Parts are not evil, are not wrong, selfish, self-centered. Maybe they look that way on the outside, but what they really are at their core is wanting something for us. So it's a very useful method, and John and I both were trained in this method together. That's actually how we met.

Yeah.

So we offer this to people now, and beginning— it's really nice to hear you share, John, that this was really a pivot point For you to find that?

It was, it was, it was huge. Then it launched me into, like, I did the Foundation and then I immediately went into Advanced and then, and then springboarded right into the coaching certification back to back. And I mean, I, I was just full tilt boogie into it.

And, um, what did life look like for you once things started to change? You, you mentioned it was a gradual change. But were there obvious shifts that you noticed?

I think other people noticed.

Wow.

Other people noticed shifts. I, it's very, you know, it's, it's interesting. I don't think that I'm not very good at like, uh, seeing the progress that I make.

That's fine.

No, I, I, I mean, I think, uh, I think other people recognize it and it's very funny about Core. So sometimes when working on Core Transformation, it's such a powerful tool. That, like, I could be working, I could work on something, and then it's no longer a problem, it's no longer an issue, and I forget that I even had the problem.

That's how it works for me often.

And then I'm like, and then other people are like, oh yeah, I noticed that you don't, you don't get upset like you used to, or you don't, you don't like You're not as easily frustrated, or, um, yeah, you used to, used to be a lot more like— I, I remember I'm also an actor, and I— the— my acting teacher was also like just such an amazing mentor, and I learned so much spiritually from studying with Lynn Hanman. And the people who studied with him are all very close, and we have little get-togethers. And, uh, I was at a get-together and I hadn't seen some people in a long time. And someone who knew me sort of peripherally, um, commented and was like, ooh, you seem different. And I was like, how? Because I was sharing about my experience with them and he was like, you, you seem— and, and I was sharing about it because he said You seem different. You're not as tightly wound. You're not as bound up.

You're—

you seem a lot happier. You seem a lot like— and, you know, as actors, you're trained to really listen and really, you know, take other people in. So it stood out to him.

That's excellent.

And Uh, yeah.

So other people really were the, the mirror for you.

Other, other people are often like, you know, my mom noticed, my girlfriend noticed. Um, and I also was, I, I was working on myself a lot. I was actively, um, I would, I, you know, I would say I had the gift of desperation. Yes.

You know, necessity really brings a lot of us, I think.

I really like— I need— I was in serious trouble. I— it was like right during the pandemic that I, I was going into all of this. Yeah, I had been working, hadn't been working, um, and had been very isolated and trapped in pain and suffering. And I think that there were a lot of things Um, that no longer were suiting me, but I didn't know how to have relief from them.

And you found this?

And I, I found it through my uncle starting to coach me and meet with me weekly, and, and then introducing me to all of this work, and then sort of guiding me and mentoring me through the process of Learning this, and then he also taught me a lot about Taoist meditation and Tibetan Buddhism and all sorts of like spirituality.

And sounds like right when you needed it, right when I needed it.

Yeah, and Tai Chi and Bagua and Qi Gong. And and so I was I'm incredibly grateful for. uh, having that support right when I need it, and also when I was ready for it, like when I could actually receive it. Um, so Core Transformation was the thing that got me to a place where— and so wholeness work for me— and, and I had an experience like, uh, where I tried to share wholeness work with a friend who had a lot of dissociation. And, uh, for them, it was, it was too much. It was like they weren't, they weren't able to do that. It was— and, and part of that is that it is more ethereal or, or more open, or there's a lot less structure.

It takes a readiness. And I think, uh, and a willingness to suspend disbelief for some that I've seen, because it is very counter to traditional therapy. It's more meditative.

It is even going from, going from core transformation where there's like, there's still some story, there's still some content, there's still some— and if you have beliefs and experiences and stories that you've been telling yourself about yourself, And needing to know and needing to understand why, or, or, uh, you know, issues with control or authority and, uh, feeling like that there's a shoulding on yourself or there's a right way to do things, or—

These parts, they're very, very inky, very chatty. They want— they want to take that time.

And so getting to— and so even with wholeness, it was like, I would say that it was It was like a, a wading in. It was like, uh, um, it wasn't like instant either. It was like a wading into wholeness and, uh, being able to, uh, sort of be in the shallow end for a little while. And, and I would say even in the beginning of my process of wholeness, um, I had a lot of meta parts that were that we're actively, um, trying to control the process, or, um, or—

I'm doing it right.

Am I doing it right? And wanting, wanting to be exceptional at it and wanting to have, like, you know, really good outcomes or really good, you know, like, uh, uh, you know, wanting to have, like, the extra special Uh, experience. And, and I remember in the beginning, uh, it being very visual, and at some point it changed and it become— it became much more kinesthetic for me.

That's so interesting. That's how it worked for me too. And there was some wondering at one point, oh no, am I now no longer doing it right?

That's exactly what happened to me. I was—

Okay, hands off, this is doing itself. I'm really not engineering how this happens.

And I'm really grateful also that I did all of the levels and eventually got to the point where you, later on in the process, you start actually working with your sensory systems and start working with like your different perceptions. And we all have different aptitudes or ways that we process information. And I think I've always been really visual. But I'm also kinesthetic. And I think that something happened where it just sort of— and it's continually shifting and changing. But I had exactly the same experience where it was like, oh no, I've lost it. It's no longer as rich. And, um, but there was a— with all of the visual was symbolism and meaning and story and—

Right. It's like that's how wholeness does content almost, right? With the visuals. And then when that—

There's metaphor. There's, there, there's, yeah, like, and all of that. And, and I learned through that, that there's a part of me that really likes to know. There's a part of me that really needs to know or, or wants to know why, or Mm-hmm. And then I would say through, um, uh, there's this really amazing, um, uh, piece of writing called the 6 Vajra Verses that my uncle shared with me, uh, that I often go back to and think about. I'll have to sh— I'll have to find it and, and Yeah, we'll link it in the notes. And, and, and, and share it with you. Um, but it really talks about that needing to know, and then also, um, things that my uncle has said over the years, like the Tao that can be known is not the Tao, or You know, the mystery. It's a mystery.

Wholeness really invites us to be in that space where we don't—

where you don't need to, and we don't need to.

And when we feel like we need to, we can check out that part of us that really feels like we need to.

And I think it's an— it— what I think you hit the nail right on the head. It's like an invitation to be in awareness and to aware— to be aware of yourself beyond, you know, egoic self, but as this field of energy that is expansive, and that there are values to that, that the— that it is compassionate, it's kind, it's non-judgmental, it's— and being able to identify as that. But it took— oh, it took some time to be able to have my parts be like, oh, I am that, or maybe I am that, or maybe that is a greater part of me than I realize. And then, um, and some of these things like, you know, these obscurations, these phenomena that are arising within thought form and emotional states. And, you know, they— um, Connie Ray talks about, um, when you're integrating, you're not getting rid of anything, right?

That's important.

You're— there's— and I think of through the meditation practices that there's a dissolving, right? But it's not so much that you're getting rid of, but really that there's a transformation that's happening where— and I even visualize it almost like it's going from solid or rigid into gas or liquid, or—

And thinking about the word dissolution, if we think of like a drop of ink in a big bowl of water, when that drop is completely dissolved, You almost can't tell anything was added, and usually you can't. It's like the drop has become completely dissolved in the water, so it's just one. It's not drop and solution, it's dissolution, but nothing's lost. The drop wasn't— it gets out.

It's just been integrated. It's been inter— and it's like, and I even think You know, through— I've noticed also in meditation, um, like, like finding, let's say, a location, whether it's wholeness or meditation, it's finding a location that has some, um, stagnation or restriction or apart, or— and then, and then if it's wholeness, then you know, where, where I'm, where is, where, what's generating that, or where am I seeing this from, or—

Yeah, people don't know what wholeness is generally, and we can just generally say, yeah, it's working with location and—

Working with, working with those locations, it's, it's like, it feels almost like even the stuff that is, let's say, dissolving or becoming vapor ends up being the thing that heals it or transforms it, or— and that there's a, there's like a dance that's happening with it, that it's not so like binary, or like the very thing that is liberated ends up being like the poison that, you know, that we're, that we're holding on to. Ends up becoming the medicine that is actually transforming, and that there's a kind of inner alchemy happening. That is what I'm— within all of that work that all has to do with awareness and has to do with, um, being present to sensation.

May I ask you a question about this specifically? Because we— you mentioned the values. that are, that are experienced and true within that being awareness. So coming to being awareness, experiencing oneself that way, that there's compassion, there's kindness. You listed these awesome— I find intelligence, spaciousness, presence. So with doing that work with sensations in the body, I know you've experienced physical pain, like longstanding issues, physically painful, painful experiences. So how has wholeness work contributed to relating to pain in a different way for you? Could you walk us through that experience?

Sure. Yeah. And I've had a really long, as you've said, a very long journey with emotional psychological pain, and then also the physical health issues I had.

And I think that the reason I want to talk about physical pain is because there's so much out there about emotional work. Usually when people get to physical pain, when I'm working with them, they think it's like a different level altogether. Well, we can't do wholeness work with physical pain because this is therapy. And that's not true.

No, I had a really crazy experience. So during this whole time period that I was Um, uh, studying all of this work, I ended up getting ocular shingles.

Oh.

And it was really unbelievably painful. Uh, and I was really lucky in that my girlfriend, when she was younger, had had shingles and was able to immediately recognize, uh, that that was maybe what was going on. Um, I had the beginnings of like a rash around my eye, and I was having what I thought was like a blocked tear duct or something. And it was really painful at first. And then I went and saw an eye doctor, and the eye doctor said, I think that this is ocular shingles, and then immediately called my primary care physician. And got a prescription for, um, uh, what's it called, Valtrex, which is an antiviral, and, um, went on that. So that stopped the, um, it from spreading, but I still at that point had nerve I, I had neuroinflammation and, uh, I wasn't able to sleep. When my hair moved, uh, it felt like my head was on fire.

Gosh.

Uh, when I breathed, even nasally, uh, it was also really painful. Any movement—

Wow.

Uh, was unbelievably painful. And I had experienced pain before. Because I also had chronic Lyme disease and had to go on— I had it my whole life, didn't know I had it, had to go on antibiotics for 4 and a half years, which ended up damaging my liver. And then I've learned since through this process of healing and recovering and working with doctors that I also, um, had some methylation issues, some issues making neurotransmitters, some issues that were also affecting my, um, having a ton of inflammation, having neuroinflammation, having ongoing pain, uh, from stuff that felt like fibromyalgia.

Um, so some may say the kind of pain you've— you were going through couldn't be touched by some kind of therapeutic method. Well, just what I would imagine the general public to assume.

I feel like, yeah, I like that neuropathic, like intense neuropathic pain, pain that was, and then also I had had experiences of pain that were when I had the Lyme and I was doing this treatment, my body was getting really run down to the point where I had very little adrenaline. I wasn't really making hormones. Uh, and I already have kind of a flat affect from depression, anxiety, from genetic issues. And not being able to make neuro— so there was also emotional pain. And there was a feeling of like identifying with all of the pain as self and identifying with the pain sensations as who I was to the point where I was like obsessively expressing how much pain I was in.

And it seems like a totally normal response. There's generally—

I was caught in this loop.

Yeah.

Of like, I'm in so much pain. I'm in pain. I'm in pain.

I'm in pain. I'm in pain.

I'm in pain. I am in pain. And to the point where like the people who loved me and cared about me, there was nothing that they could do for me. And so it was even really difficult for them to witness.

And to see the pain.

And to see me—

Because we're in pain.

Falling apart and it went on for years. And so I have this, like, very long— and then I have the emotional and psychological pain from trauma that I was self-medicating early on.

I mean, after— How did you approach pain with wholeness work?

So, so what ended up— so because I had this toolbox and because I had this whole experience, and then also because I was armed with some knowledge about my physiology and biochemistry, that meant That I understood that, like, some of the pain that I was experiencing had to do with the fact that my adrenals were burnt out. I didn't have enough adrenaline. Adrenaline dampens your nerves. And so there were feelings that I were feeling that were underneath the surface that probably most people would be feeling if they also didn't have enough adrenaline. And so there was a knowledge. So there were some. Part of me that was like, that, that somehow made it okay that I was, that, that I experienced maybe more pain than some other people because I, because of this lack of what's meant to dampen it.

Right.

So that I was okay there. Yeah, that I was okay. That it was like, even though I was experiencing this pain, it wasn't that there were bugs eating me. alive, or, you know, that I was dying.

So that information helped you?

That information helped me feel like— and yet the pain was excruciating. And, and because I had had this whole past experience of pain, um, and I had survived it, I knew on some level that the pain couldn't really kill me or hurt me or whatever it was that might come from it, ultimately I would probably be okay. And even though— and I think, I think at the time, um, I told Stephen what was going on and he gave me very specific guidelines on how to be with it and address it. And it involved understanding the There's a story, there's belief, there's meaning that's going on when you're experiencing that kind of pain. There's the pain that you've just experienced, or there's the past pain.

Remembered. Yeah. Anticipated.

There's the anticipated pain. There's the pain that hasn't happened yet, but it's, you know, it's coming. And there's like a, a fear and anticipation and a kind of hypervigilance and a looking for it.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's like our reticular activating system. It's like constantly filtering for whatever it is that we're looking for. And so if you're looking for it, you're gonna find it, you're gonna see it, you're— it's gonna show up. Um, and so being able to actually, um, learn To be mindful of those— that there's the constellation of sensations that I'm experiencing as pain physically in my body.

Mm-hmm.

There's the emotional reactions and responses. There's my mind and the thoughts that, that are being generated from it, and that they fit into those categories of past, future, Present, and that if I can get really still and I can just breathe and I can just be in awareness and be as awareness, not as John, but as awareness, being as this field of awareness, and just breathing into these locations and experiencing them as a constellation of sensations. Rather than story, this is happening to me. I am, I am experiencing this.

So personal when it's all—

And then, and then for me, it was then going into wholeness. So, so I have this pain. Where is the location of this pain? Where is it being generated from?

It's like a— it's a tool.

What's the size and shape of it? What are the sensation qualities present there within it? Where am I experiencing all of this? Okay, I'm aware of this. Where am I aware of this from? Where's the location of that? What is the size and shape of that? What are the sensation qualities present there? And just being— and, you know, a big part of it for me also, uh, I was in the bathtub. I went into, like, I needed to have water all around me. I needed to be submerged in, in water and totally comfortable. I was like dumping like Epsom salt, magnesium, and like, it was just like in a warm bath doing this because I couldn't sleep. So it was basically like non-sleep deep rest, and all I was doing was wholeness work for all through the night, all through the day. Um, and it totally got me through it. And it got to the point where the, the pain, it no longer had the power or force that I was experiencing previously because I wasn't identifying as it any longer.

Right.

I was identifying as this field of awareness and just really being as the as awareness and really this constant constellation of sensations and really understanding, like, from the Taoist perspective that no matter what's arising is all phenomena. They're all just basically manifestations of the ground of all being. They're— it's all just, uh, and, and in some degree I was— I felt like And I don't know if this is true, but there's a part of me that wants to believe that, oh, there must be some reason for this.

Oh, it's so, it's so typical.

It's people, you know, like that. There might— there must be like, maybe I'm burning off something, or—

yeah, you know, it's mythic. People are a people of story. Yeah, but it sounds like the wholeness work Took the ideas that I am not the pain into a direct experience of these constellated sensations.

I had, I had understanding that I had learned and built, and that experience became like a baptism by fire, quite literally. Like, it was like—

You had to.

It was, it was born of the pain. It was the only way through it. Like, the path was the obstacle. Like, It— the only way was through. And, and it lasted, I think, about 4 days.

Whoa.

And, and then through that, coming through, I was exhausted. But I was also— and there was grief. And there, you know, there was Um, and I was scared. I was really scared about what was happening to me. And then I ended up, I think, also getting like a partial retinal, um, detachment. So I was also concerned about like my vision. And, um, but yeah, it was really getting through that experience, really getting through it. I feel like really helped me to understand, like, this is a powerful tool. This isn't— and also, like, as someone in recovery and someone who's had liver damage, I can't— I mean, I can't even take herbs, right? I have to be really careful about what I put into my body because my liver can get frustrated, like, just basically be like, no. And, and start shutting down and not detoxing and getting inflammation and weight gain and not making energy.

Pretty much.

So I can't take aspirin, I can't take Advil, I can't take Tylenol, I can't take any kind of— and then also I don't like to take, uh, any— and anytime I've ever tried to take anything for pain, it never really works for me. It always basically just makes me Like when I've had surgeries in the past, um, uh, I had a parathyroid tumor, uh, removed. And that when you have one of those, it causes your calcium blood levels to go up and you start having all these muscle contractions. That was another situation where it was like, I was like, I don't know what's going on. And it was right sort of immediately after having had Lyme. Where I was like, oh my God, what, what if I don't have Lyme? What if I have something worse? What if I have— and the story, the belief, all of the— that just fed my own neurotic fear of and worry about my health. And, and it was also quite amazing to be able to have a doctor then go like, no, you have a tumor and it's over here and we're going to remove it and you're going to be good. And they did that.

It was like when— that's what happened when it needed to be dealt with, with more allopathic medicine. It could be.

Yeah.

Couldn't be, you turned to this, which was really helpful.

And even when, like, and sometimes it's like, like, you know.

Well, I have one more question for you, John, so I want to wrap it up.

Yeah.

So if we could—

but I, I agree with you. Like, I'm a big fan of allopathic medicine. And I'm all— and I also am— there's no— it's like not either or. Like these—

It's so true.

It's like being able to address— like, for me, this is just good mental hygiene. And it's also— it's being able to understand that I'm a spiritual being having a human experience, and then— and then I need to connect to spirit. And that just like I need to go to the gym and I need to work out and I need to exercise my muscles, I need to exercise the muscle of spirit and consciousness and being present as this field of awareness and being part of this mystery.

I'm so glad you included this because this either-or mentality is common in the culture. Like, I either am adhering to Western medicine or I'm not, and then I'm only doing spiritual path.

Or, or the other fallacy that if there's something happening with your health, then there, there must be some reason, which is just promoting more shame. So then you— oh, you've chosen to— you've chose to have cancer, you chose to— and I don't think that that's— There's no way to know that.

And the—

To tell yourself that is just—

Of this spiritual hygiene or this mental hygiene of using wholeness work is that it's divesting our experience from whatever story is going on.

And not, and not needing to know.

Not needing to know. And it's a practice of returning again and again to recognizing it's safe to not know. It's completely safe to live your life, Happily, presently, in relationships, in work, in careers, in society, and not know.

There's this really amazing quote that my acting teacher, Wynn Handman, shared with me a long time ago that's really rung in me, which was, I'm never more myself than when I transcend myself.

Oh.

And I think it's C.S. Lewis.

That's beautiful.

And it— and it's— and, and, and When I'm at my best, it's— I'm able to listen. I'm able to be present. I'm not thinking about what I'm going to say.

Yeah.

And something is flowing through me in communion and resonating, resonating with whomever I'm speaking with. And at its best, it's— I'm a clear channel. for that field of awareness. And I'm so much more comfortable when I get to experience myself as that awareness. Like, and I hope that in time, over time, I get to experience more and more and more of that. Um, and that it's like Progress, not perfection. And I also, um, have to remind myself to not be so spiritually, um, uh, centered that I'm of no earthly good.

I really appreciate that about you, John, is that you put what you've learned into practice to help yourself and others. It's not to attain Dissolution. It's not going for that oblivion you mentioned in the beginning.

No, it's, it's, it's, I think, and I've really, like, when I talked to Stephen about enlightenment, a lot of times he talks about it really being, being able to see things as they truly are. Yes. Without, like, your bias or your, without being filtered through your story or your beliefs or your experiences, but really being able to see things illuminated as they are. And, um, that's, that's the goal for me. And coming from someone who's had been in psychosis, right, and believed all sorts of really odd things, um, it's really— that's the goal. That's where I want to be.

So this is Really great because you are a transformational coach. You help people on multiple levels, and you're an actor, so you're a very talented person.

Thank you.

And I'm, I'm wondering, just for the people who are listening, um, right now, what is alive for you? This is the last question. In your practice, like, how do you guide others towards wholeness today? Do you mostly work with core transformation? Do you mostly work with wholeness? Do you do your own thing completely and bring those in when it's appropriate? If people are looking to work with you, what could they expect to find?

So it really, it depends. Like, I meet and greet every specific situation individually, and whatever, whatever it, whatever it, I feel like, whatever tools that I have that I feel like would be a good match for, you know, I also have gotten really into Emotional Freedom Technique and tapping, and I found that It's like really amazing and helpful for state change and for getting calm. And then, uh, mindfulness and, and meditation and just being able to move easily into, um, presence and awareness, or noticing like my mind is actively, uh, doing and I'm choosing to go along with it. And sometimes that's not accessible.

Yeah.

And, and so when it isn't, maybe core transformation is the thing if there's a part that is being generated that is creating that behavior. And usually that's— and I like to try to keep things separate. So if we're doing core transformation, we're doing core transformation. And then if we decide that we need to move into wholeness work, But usually I would say that it, it's entering into the process through doing core transformation first, because that's what my experience has been, and that's what's been really helpful for me. And then it's maybe moving towards wholeness work and also meditation and also all these other tools. And then, um, I've also coached people, uh, on health and wellness as well. And so some of that is just more knowledge and diet and understanding, but I have a very sort of holistic, adaptable approach.

So it fits with everything you've been saying. If you told me anything otherwise, I would be like, hmm. So I'm so happy. Um, I will, um, just lastly ask you, how can people find you if they want to check out?

At my, uh, at my website, PradaTransform.com.

PradaTransform.com. Okay, I'll put that also in the notes so people can see that.

And thank you so much for having me. It's, it's always a delight to talk to you. I, I, um, I, I think you're brilliant, and I, I'm so happy that we get to share this part of our lives and that we're both Um, on this path and healing and recovering and getting to help others. And I'm so grateful to you for putting this together. And I've watched, um, the— I have watched the interview that you did with Shirley, and I found it so inspiring. And I encourage people to watch that as well. Thank you so much, John. I just want to Yeah.

I appreciated our— or I just enjoyed, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. So let's do it again soon. And everyone who's listening, thank you for listening. And if you're curious to explore wholeness work or Core Transformation for yourself, you can check out the links that I put in the video or the show notes. And as always, I think from this conversation, we could naturally gather to take your time, with change. As John said so beautifully, it's a wading in kind of process, and trust your process. And hopefully we'll see you next time. So thanks.

Thank you.