217: Bridge the Gap Breakthrough Communication Tools to Transform Work Relationships

Hi everyone. Kathy here.

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There are a lot of gaps to be bridged and the only way that starts is by getting yourself into a dynamic personally where you understand that you're part of the fabric. Be responsible for how you show up. That's where it starts.

So when we walk into places where people are fighting so hard, but they're not showing up correctly in the fight, what's at stake for them? What's at stake for them? What are they not sharing here that I don't know? Because I can tell you that when you know somebody's personal story, their lived backgrounds, you cannot deny them their humanity.

Hello everyone, this is Kathy Caprino and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created this show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week, I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of Finding Brave and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful and meaningful life, business and career. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. How are you this week? How's it going? I'm hoping that things I think you're get, you're going to see this in early March. And wow, I can't wait to see what early March brings. You know, every month is, it's a whole new thing for us in, in these past few years. But I hope you're all well and happy and healthy. And I am beyond excited to have our wonderful two guests, two, two for one, here talking about something that's so vitally important. And what I find is so interesting is we're not really taught this information, which is how to bridge the gap, breakthrough communication tools to transform relationships. And we're talking about work relationships and personal and family relationships and as well. But I just am thrilled to have Jennifer Edwards and Katie Cleary here. Thank you so much. And I know you're in the middle of a book launch and you're crashingly busy there in California, but thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing. And can we just start there? First of all, I've got a million questions. How to keep this to 30 seconds? I can't. 30 seconds, 30 minutes. I can't. But your book and your work, and I'm going to read your bio so everyone can know the amazing work you're doing. But I would just love before I read the bio, can you tell us what made you. This is your first book and your first book together. What a blessing. What made you say this is the book we have to write of all the things you're doing. Can you.

Yeah, absolutely. So Jennifer and I met about four years ago in 2018, and the nation was going through a lot of political turmoil. Right. And we've seen that through the pandemic and stuff. And so when we met, I was going to write a book. She was going to write a book. We met in a women's leadership circle and it was like two puzzle pieces coming together. So Jennifer is passionate about neuroscience and how it shows how you show up in your body and perform under pressure. And I'm really passionate about your mind and your story and your limbic system and how you create your world knowing how to maneuver through your story.

You what?

Say that again. So I'm really passionate about how you maneuver through your story so that you can author your own life. So when we were both doing coaching and so when you intersect those two things together, you're really reaching that whole person. The mind, the brain, your body, your spirit. It's about how you show up to do great things. And, and it was under this backdrop of people kind of in cancel culture polarization. So how do we bridge that gap? How do we show up better to have great conversations so we can collaborate?

What a. What an important gift. And there are so many statistics and pieces of information you share, and one of them really struck me that only a very small percentage of, well, you're going to correct me of how people perceive you and your ability to reach someone and is actually the words you say. Isn't that true, Kathy?

I'm so glad you brought that up because long before words leave our mouth, you are there. You walk into a room and there is energy. You come into energy and you bring energy. So one of the most important things that we talk a lot about is how conscious and present are we to how we show up in any given moment. I was joking, but I had a tendency to come in hot, sometimes not manage my time as well as I should.

Hot, meaning like rest. Like, let's get going here.

Yeah. Correct. Or maybe cut my time too short. And one of the things we're aware of is that that's not good for energy. That's not good for presence. So how do we intend to show up?

Oh, I love it. Sometimes I get so excited I cut people off. And of course it's a terrible thing to do, but I feel like I already know what they're about to say. That's just the worst. Let them say it. And if you can't, take a breath and be patient and let it be said, we all need this work. But before we dig in deeper, let me tell you people about the work that you both are doing. Jennifer Edwards and Katie McCleary are communication coaches and co authors of the new book Bridge the Gap. Jennifer is a leadership Advisor working with Fortune 500 companies and boards, optimizing performance and collaboration. Her clients are global companies from Microsoft to WeWork. She's a partner at Winning Streak Ventures, an early stage VC fund investing in disruptive technology companies. Amazing. Katie is an entrepreneur and storyteller, as you mentioned, who trains leaders, creatives, and humanitarians. That stopped me in my tracks to launch big ideas by leveraging their social and cultural capital. She is the founder of 916 Inc. A nonprofit that transforms vulnerable youth into confident authors. What inspiring work you both are doing. She hosts the Drive podcast on NPR's Cap Radio. NPR. What a gift with the American Leadership Forum, MB in Sacramento. Sometimes I read my guest bios and I say, what am I doing with my life over here anyway? It's so, so inspiring. All right, so now Let us dig in here. You talk a lot about in your writing, in your work, the role of curiosity in relationships. Can you dig in here and tell us what does it mean? And you actually come up with four different types of curiosity. Tell us, tell us more.

Absolutely. So you know, we're born curious. We're social creatures, right? We're toddlers. We want to feel and touch and learn and explore about our world. And out the gate we're hardwired to be curious. But the research shows that as we get older, we become curious in different ways based off our boredom. And that's sort of where those other sort of curiosity profiles come from. But the most important part of curiosity is our perceptual curiosity. How do we perceive things to be based off our own lived experiences and our biology? And so one of the things that we really promote in our book is that it's all about how you show up, especially in those relationships, relationships that there is struggle, right? Whether people are struggling to understand like or respect one another, that's about perceptual curiosity. So how can we increase it? How can we show up curious as an explorer to hear what we don't know, to suspend what we think we know in order to really understand that others point of view from their lived experiences and how they show up? Because that's how you cross that gap.

It's so beautiful. You know what comes to my mind and often this happens in the podcast. I'm listening with half my brain and immediately I have a million questions. In the other I'm like, slow down, let me hear you first. But you know what comes up for me? Tell me. And I know you talk about this in your book. I think that what has happened and you touched on it is. And I'd love to hear the neuroscience behind it. The older we get, I think the belief systems that we have been given, often we're not even aware that we created. We didn't create them. They were given to us culturally in our families. Right? But they become so ingrained that if something you speak or say rubs up against my belief, I think what we're seeing is we are not curious about what you have to say. It's brought us into a fear place. And you talk all about the amygdala, Amy, but before we go there, can you share? And I think this takes greater self awareness. I always say you are not your thoughts, but your thoughts will control you if you don't recognize you are not your thoughts. So it takes self awareness. It takes commitment. This is not easy stuff. And unfortunately, we didn't learn it as children. Nobody learned it. Why didn't we learn this? But this is a lot of speaking to ask you when you're hearing things that perturb your fears, like, oh, no, she's on the other side of the whatever. What do we do? What do we do to mitigate, calm that fear mind so we can even want to be curious?

That is the best question because it's exactly where we are in the world. How do we get curious about people who have such different preferences, perspectives? And how do we get curious when our body gets tight, reactive, frightened, maybe feeling vulnerable or shame? All those things. Kathy, the one thing that we know that all of our work demonstrates is that you can operationalize curiosity as a tool to calm your body down by asking this question. When my body gets tight and I feel it, I feel it deep inside, I have to say to myself, hey, Jennifer, what is there to get curious about right now that you don't know? Hey, Jennifer, you're feeling threatened, but it's really not a life or death situation. How do you actually get curious about what you don't know? You don't know right here? And that question interrupts the brain's automatic wiring to get it back to a place of curiosity where you can learn something new. And it's powerful.

All right, I've got a real life example I'd love you to walk us through. Okay. Please. Absolutely. So we were talking earlier about what a blessing it is when you're in this sphere of being an author or coach and around you are very supportive, uplifting people. It's such a blessing, right? But every once in a while, we'll get something coming at us. And I bet you have dug into this because in corporate life, we see a lot of it. You know, as a former therapist, I saw a lot of narcissistic personality disorder. And when you are on the receiving end of narcissism, the way you operate doesn't norm. It's not going to work. It's not going to work. I mean, especially if the person is extreme, an extreme narcissist. So one thing I want to share is recently I got a message from someone and clearly I had perturbed their system in a way that was unbeknownst to me. You know, I was just saying what I normally say about things, and what I got back was so vitriolic that what happens to me, and it happens much less now. And I think it's because I've done a lot of work, but it happens. And sometimes there were red flags with the individual that I didn't listen to. Anyway, the point is, what happens to me is I literally start to shake. My hands start to shake. So what I want to ask you is I've done enough work that after five minutes of shaking, which is fear and anger, I will say, I don't say that, but I'm going to start saying it. I'll say, what do you think is happening with this individual that would have generated that kind of fury and hostility? And I know what it is. I know what it is. So. But when you're afraid, is curiosity what we need, or is it also let me find one sliver of compassion for what must be something that's going on with this person that would make them respond? Tell me. Tell me what you think.

Absolutely. So this happens all the time.

Right.

And the key is to disrupt yourself in that moment from wanting to react.

So.

First, the mindset is, I'm here for them. I think that Jennifer and I really speak the tenets of servant leadership. I'm here for them. I'm here for the greater good. I'm also here for the we, not the I. So that's the mindset. You depersonalize it in some way. That way you can gain some distance from it. Right?

Good.

You take responsibility for your part in it. I must have rubbed them the wrong way. There must have been a miscommunication or a breakdown. So that's in your mind. Now let's really talk about your body.

You're shaking.

You're angry. The words are like rushing through your throat to come to your mouth. Right. You got to stop. You have to learn how to be aware that you feel it in your body and you stop. Now, there's a couple things that we teach in the book about all the ways to get yourself clean. So we say, you want to show up clean and curious what clean means. I'm not reactive. I'm not shaking. I've gathered myself to a point where I've offered grace to myself, grace to the other. Some really good tips. Pinch your thumb. You can do it immediately. Try it. Right now I'm doing it.

Calming me down.

When I speak, I hold my hands like this and I pinch my thumb if I'm super nervous. Your brain can do multiple things at once. Right. But it is distracted by the pressure that you're putting there instead of the pressure you're going to feel everywhere else. That's one thing.

It calms me down immediately.

It really does and you don't have to keep doing it. You just naturally think, okay, so you're cleaning yourself in that moment to show up better. Another thing that you can do is go and change your body temperature. Now we all can't go get in an ice bath. Bath or a shower. We don't have time in our workday. You can go and wash your hands. You can go. There's a ton of research about changing your body temperature in order to release anxiety, pressure and stress. It knocks your system out in a different way, creates a reset. Yep.

And in these moments, what we're really looking to do is to reset our biology that's been triggered so that our prefrontal cortex or logic, thought, language, curiosity.

Yeah, curiosity and communication is in your prefrontal cortex. If that's hijacked, done.

Gosh, I love this. I gotta ask you, I. I know you're not prepared for this question, but. So I know you'll riff on it.

Okay.

I was reading a book called Journey of Souls. You know, nothing like what you're talking about here, but that they're. That lives have had. That souls have had many lives. And it was a case study of lots of people who had been hypnotized and regressed and talking about life between lives. And one of them says under hypnosis, the Earth school is the most difficult school. And the hypnotist therapist says, why is that? And this. And I will never forget this readings the person said the population has expanded to the degree that there is so much diversity, yet the human brain has not developed to the level to deal with it. That's powerful. Oh my goodness. I mean, I really see that to be true. Now I'm all for diversity and believe we can't go backwards. We can't wanna be a single cell organism where there's no diversity. But I have to say, as a therapist and a coach, I believe that that is true. And the only way to change that is concentrated work on human and brain development. And human development. What do you all think?

You nailed it.

Come on, I gotta be wrong about some of that.

No, we like to refer to it the fact that we're walking around this earth with a human suit and we can't zip that human suit off. What you just pointed to is the pressure, the polarization, the fast pace. It's only increasing at just such an acceleration that it's hard for our brains to catch up. And especially our empathy side of our brains, our being with other people, our compassion side.

Is it? Oh, go ahead. I'M so interested. No, I don't want to cut you off.

And that's what's going to change the world. Whether it's in the workplace, in the family is. It's our human suit, in our brain, saying to ourselves, hey, care first. Show up for another. Seek to understand and most importantly, be curious. Because everyone is doing the best they can.

Oh, I love that.

The moment they're in with the skills they can access.

So help me understand this. Is it an evolutionary thing that diverse? I was watching the show. Pbs. Neanderthal. Oh, my gosh. And that the Neanderthals were not what we thought they were. They were more advanced, in fact. But is it an evolutionary thing that diversity meant. I gotta kill you. Or you know, that anything that was different from what I saw in my pod, or whatever we call it was a mortal threat. Is that what it was evolutionarily?

Yeah. I actually know quite a bit about this. So we are hunters and gatherers. That's what we are. We live in small pods as we were born, and we were meant to migrate and travel so that we can hunt and gather to support our little tiny family enclave. We were actually never built biologically to live in systems and societies that are really large. The more that we congregate within cities and those environments, and then you have a plethora of diversity and a plethora of preference. Right there becomes a deepening of systems and a deepening of beliefs. Now, if those belief systems are not derivative of your family origin, your little tribe of hunter gatherers. Now, we can't decide on a common shared goal. We can't decide on the common story, we can't decide on the common rules. Right? And then we've added industrialization, digitalization, capitalism, all different forms of being. Right on top of it that we're no longer operating within our own little units where we all know what the rules are, we all know how to be with each other. And so that's why breakdowns are happening. That's why collaboration is increasingly difficult in this world. Even though we have all the tools and knowledge at our disposal to do it, we're still emotional creatures. And if we don't emotionally know how to belong to the rules and the order and there's many choices in front of us. We fail, we fail.

You're the right people ask these questions. All right, I have more. But if I'm missing anything about the book that you absolutely need us to understand, loop me back. But got another question again, I'm coming at this in different Ways than maybe you would be being asked, you know, when you're in front of Microsoft.

We like riffing.

Oh, good.

Oh, good.

Some people are like, why didn't you dialogue? Yeah, well, we didn't. You didn't need to prepare us. We'll riff with you all day long.

Riff with me. All right.

We live in a measurement based society. That's the other thing I want to add to all of this. We live in a measurement based society and our language has been tailored around that.

Why?

How much?

When.

Yeah, right. Our language tools are not allowing us to feed our emotional needs.

Well, that's when it's.

We learned in. I was a marriage and family therapist, which is a special genre of. I mean, not special. A particular genre of therapy. Our teachers would say, don't use why. Don't say why to someone. Why? Because you get so defensive when someone said, why'd you just do that? Immediately you are defending yourself. Would you agree with that? Is that a word you suggest not to ask?

Kathy, There's a whole section in our book that we call against why. Oh, I love it.

So curiosity is not about asking questions.

No, it's.

And that's what everybody thinks. What it is.

I stopped in my tracks about that and I want you to explain that. But before we go there, I need to ask this. I feel like when I read your material, what we're talking about is being a spiritual individual. And I do not mean religious. I have chucked my organized raised Greek Orthodox. It didn't work for me. As a 10 year old, I thought, what is this? It's not making sense. So two things I want to ask you about. I feel that to come from a place of I care about you, I care about we. These are spiritual principles that most of us are never taught. I mean, we might have been taught in an organized religious form, but maybe not secondly tied into that. I think what you are asking of us is that we choose our beliefs, that we're not simply accepting what has been programmed as our beliefs. But most people that I work with, so, you know, mid to high level professional women, they don't even know consciously what they believe. They don't know what they believe. So can you talk about either or both of those there? Is there a spiritual element maybe? You don't call it that.

No, we do. Why don't I take the spiritual and why don't you take the words?

That sounds great.

Okay.

Yeah.

We are spiritual beings. And the most important thing we must remember as individuals is that we are woven together. In a tapestry across this world. We have an obligation as spiritual beings to support each other, to look out for each other, to promote each other, to help each other find each other's callings. I use those words in the spiritual realm, but they work in the work world as well as we are in organizations. We need each other. We need each other to do great work. We need each other to do important, meaningful, contributive behaviors on teams. We need each other in communities. We need each other as peacemakers. The most important thing we want to bring out of this book is there are a lot of gaps to be bridged.

Oh, boy.

The only way that starts is by getting yourself into a dynamic personally where you understand that, yeah, you're part of the fabric. Be responsible for how you show up. That's where it starts.

Can I ask a follow up? And then I want to hear your thoughts. What happens when. And I'm not going to get political, but I will say this. You know, I'm an American. I love being born here, but I don't view myself as. As an American. I view myself as a person of the world. Yeah, it just, it wasn't in my doing to be born here and I could have been born anywhere else. What happens when you meet people that don't agree with what you just said? No, it's not really about us helping everyone else. I mean, whether you look at it politically, societally, in your work, I mean, we all know people at work who don't want to give someone else credit, who don't want to uplift them as they rise. What do you do? What do you suggest when you're coaching a team that has individuals like that, that listen to this and go, what is this nonsense?

Right.

What do you do with that?

You get curious. I hate to say it, but it's true.

What are you curious for about? What are you trying to understand? Just them.

Everyone deep down inside is fighting for some value that they have and they hold tightly to. And if I have a chance, when someone is in what we call resistance to my way of thinking or the approach we're bringing to the team, the most important thing I can do is sit with that individual and say, okay, interesting. Tell me about what you're thinking. Tell me where your perspective is. Tell me what you could see being different. And in that conversation, I guarantee I'll find more of a way to have the and as opposed to the but. Because one of the things Katie and I love to say is but is kind of a poisonous word.

I've tried to eradicate it and boy, does it slip in. Hey, that was really great, your presentation. But no, you just negated the whole darn thing.

Yeah. Because words build worlds. And Katie, would you share that part?

Yeah. And the belief part. Words, belief, the whole thing.

Wow.

What a masterclass.

So I meet a lot of people that I struggle with. Right. Because I have a particular way that I want our world to be and to grow. And I have such hope and enthusiasm and optimism for it, but that's actually not where I come from. So I come from the other side. I come from the side that you're talking about, Kathy.

You mean your tribe, your family, your. Yep, yep.

And so that's a. That's a whole other story.

Yeah.

But I will say that in all my work with vulnerable youth and working with their families and trauma and parents who are just really crappy parents, nobody wants to not experience joy. Everybody is trying to be happy. My job then is to understand how did this person come to be? What is the pain of this person? It's what Jennifer said. What are they fighting for? What is that deep core belief in America? It's about freedom, freedom of expression and being able to maneuver through our different class layers to achieve that American dream, whatever that American dream is for you. When we walk into places where people are fighting so hard but they're not showing up correctly in the fight, it's what's at stake for them. What's at stake for them? What are they not sharing here that I don't know? Because I can tell you that when you know somebody's personal story, their lived backgrounds, you cannot deny them their humanity. And they are bonded to you in a different way, in a safety way. And they will begin to coach and come out of their shell. And out of a scarcity mindset, they have learned that it is them against the world. And culture has reinforced that. Family has reinforced that. That's why knowing people, like deeply knowing the people you work with and surround yourself with is important. What is their story? Because I can tell you when you begin to be transparent about that, you bring light and awareness to them. Because often they're not conscious of how they're showing up. Right. Do you meet anybody who says, I want to show up and destroy the world? Today, there's very, very few people like that. So I'll stop.

You know what that reminds me of? It's so beautiful. And it reminds me I have to go back and do something. In the first years of my training as a therapist, I was an Intern for a year in a lower economic area. And there was rape, incest, pedophilia, suicidality, drug addiction, attempted murder.

Yeah.

But I remember one of the hardest things was a man who beat his daughter was mandated. And here I am, an intern at 41 years old. What do I do? And he felt justified. Justified to beat her up. I remember saying to my supervisor, what am I doing here? What am I? Give me some framework. You know, what am I? In no world do I live in that I think that this is where. What do I do? And you know what she said? You have to find a way to love this individual. You have to find something. Yes. To love. And you mustn't judge, because your job is to help this person, and this person will not be helped if there's hate and judgment and ridicule. And that you are keeping yourself separate was the most incredible lesson of my entire life. And I, you know, I think I was able at that time to do what you're saying. What would make him think he needed to beat her up? And he made it clear she didn't respect me and she doesn't listen to my words.

Right.

So I've got to go with that. And, you know, he did shift. You know, he didn't become a person that would never hit again. But I know what you're saying is true. I know what you're saying. Work works, but it requires so much.

Growth individually, and it requires time. And let's be honest, if we apply this to the world of work, do we have that much time at work? Do we? Are we given opportunities to really know people? How are we showing up at work? Right. So one of the beautiful things in our book is we talk about the finger trap. You know, those really fun little cylindrical finger traps, fingers in, and then you try to pull your fingers out and they get stuck.

Right? Yeah.

When you're in a relationship where you're struggling, you're in the finger trap with that other person. The only way to get out of the finger trap is one of you has to move closer. You have to choose to understand and know this person. And you do have to choose to love them. Jennifer and I work in prisons. We work in Folsom Prison. We work and we help them rewrite their stories. And the redemption, the depth, the horror. Right. It doesn't excuse the crimes, but it's a new day, and we're all humans. And you begin meeting people's emotional needs. You get them out of the finger trap, and they will shift fast because.

All of Us want to shift. All of us have that spark inside of us that wants to show up better than we are. We're just looking for a door to walk through.

You know, let me ask you this, that there's a challenge here. I'm not sure everybody I meet wants to be better, but I do think they want to get out of the pain they're in.

Yeah, I would agree.

And often when it's not going well, there's a lot of pain. Would you agree?

I would agree. And I would say that some people are very comfortable in their pain and are committed to it.

Can we talk about that? You break it down about the three modes. I was like, wow, which one am I? And sadly, I'm the rescuer. Right. These three modes will you. And I forget how you label what category the three modes are.

Well, it's a well known tool in the world of both psychology and mental health, and it's called the trauma triangle.

That's it.

What it really talks to is that as children, when we're raised in our own family dynamics, in our social circles, we're taught unconsciously to play one of three roles as a way to make meaning of our life, as a way to have an identity. One of the three roles is. The three roles are you either play the role of a victim, a persecutor, or a rescuer.

A persecutor, yeah.

And what's interesting is we're unconscious that we're playing these roles, but they start playing out in our dynamics with all the relationships we have. And we usually have one that we lean toward more naturally. So, for example, I tend to lean when I am unconscious and unaware, more toward persecutor and rescuer. Katie.

I am always leaning towards victim and rescuer, but I do this weird thing. I actually shut down and stop communicating with others. And then I'm in my own drama triangle where I'm just rescuing myself and then I'm a victim and then I rescue myself and then I persecute myself and then I rescue myself and then I'm a victim.

That sounds terribly familiar.

And I love that Dr. Stephen Carpman, who designed and brought this. Yeah, brought this out. Helps us normalize it helps us understand that, like, okay, this is just a paradigm we're stuck in.

It's so damaging, isn't it?

Oh, and people pull you into a drama triangle.

We call it advance, and you're allowing it and you're looking for it. I remember I moved in with a wonderful friend, and then she went. She realized she had Alcoholism and alcoholism in her family. And she came home one day and said we were living together. She said, I'm going to have to distance myself from you. I said, what do you mean? And she said, I recognize from what I learned, ACOA Adult children of alcoholics. She went to. She said, I realized that you are drawn to people that need help and you are keeping me in that. Or it's working to keep me in that mode. And I receive so hurt and so offended. But I gotta say, I'm like, wow, there's something there. And, And I tell. Tell me if you agree. But these patterns are so limiting, so damaging. They. They are so constraining. Right. Why should we get out of these little dances that. Not little. I don't mean to diminish them. Why should we.

Oh, I love it. We're powerless in that dynamic.

Get that.

We have choices. We forget that we have authorship of what's in front of us. You know, living in blame and shame and all the trauma and drama that those three roles create, they. They render us really powerless beings. Yet there is another way. And the other way is we call it the circle of choice. And it says that, hey, I have an opportunity to see anything that comes at me from a fresh perspective. There's a great quote that says any event that happens plus the response equals an outcome. The events can happen. It's how we look at the responses. It's how we manage our biology and our lived experiences through the responses that gives us an outcome. There are a lot of great examples of how people have thrived through the pandemic and collapsed through the pandemic. But everybody had the pandemic. It's those people who didn't play the triangle game in the pandemic that played the circle of choice that had an outcome that was really just tremendous or.

Different or silver lining. Something that we can be, you know, after the breakdown comes the breakthrough. Sometimes we need a paradigm shift. Right. Yeah. I have one more question. I know I could keep you for two hours. Do you have time for one more question?

Absolutely.

We love chatting.

I would love to hear what you say about this, but you do talk about it in the book, that having a personal board of directors is so helpful. I find that when I am triggered to behave in a way that I know I need to get out of, but I'm struggling to do it myself, or wow, what was that? Can you give me some perspective about what this person did that I'm not seeing? It always helps. Even if I don't agree with the board of, you know, the board, the advisor. But I do believe that outside input intervenes with our chronic triggered behavior. Can you. Do you agree with that? Can you talk about personal board of directors? All of it?

I love what you said.

Somebody hammering. I'm sorry.

Oh, we can't hear it.

Good.

You know, I love the concept that we've been taught. I don't remember who said it, but that you are the sum of the people. You surround yourself.

Yeah.

And I don't want those people to just be haphazard, because when I'm making big decisions or I need advice or wisdom, I want them to be people who are honest, Brutally, beautifully honest. Right. And who say, hey, I care enough about you that I'm willing to do give my time, energy to you. And so we actually recommend you bring four different people together. The first two are what we call a mentor and a role model. And they are really. The mentor is somebody who really is able to understand your gifts and your strengths and walk alongside you and say, hey, let's actually look at this a different perspective. They may have more experience and wisdom than you, and you can glean from that. Mentors are important.

Beautiful.

The next one is a role model, and this is somebody who really inspires you. They're open, they're authentic, and they're able to probably paint a fuller picture than you can see in the current time.

The other two are an encouraging friend. Right. You need to go vent. You need to go process. You need someone to remind you of who you are and where you come from and what you've done before. So different than the mentor and the role model. Right. This is a friend.

Yeah.

And it's not a coach either. Like, sometimes I'm, you know, therapist coach. Sometimes I'm hopping in with just shut up and listen. Shut it, shut it and listen. Yeah.

And then the last one that you do need is you need that coach. You need someone who will hold your feet to the fire and tell you what is up. Right. And this should be actually someone I think that you're a little intimidated by. Choose someone in that board of director that intimidates you.

Love it. Yeah, Love it. Sometimes, you know, I teach some courses, and almost invariably I'll say, so what's your emotion after this first class? And they'll say, I'm so excited, but I'm scared. And I know we're. We're onto it.

Yeah, that's great.

Scared means we're stretching. Scared means you're taking me somewhere here, right?

Yep.

Absolutely. Love it. I love it. Any last words about bridging the gap? Something we didn't touch on, that everybody needs to race to the book to read, you know, that everybody doesn't understand. Can you. Can you do that for me? When you're standing there talking to, you know, these illustrious leaders, managers, and they all think they know how to do this, but they're like, wow, I didn't know. What is it?

If you're the leader, you're the channel. Your energy translates to everything. And. And, you know, in less than one second, it's 0.07 seconds. You make an impression. Your energy does. The minute you enter a room, a.

Conversation, what do they do? What should we do to make that energy beautiful?

I think it starts with, before you get in, loosen your jaw, relax.

That easy?

Yeah, it's pretty easy.

It's pretty easy. Take a big, deep breath. You know, most importantly, listen. Yeah, I was gonna say listen. Listen.

Listen.

They're. Listen and the word silent are the same word or same letters?

Yeah.

Listen and the word silent share the same letters.

Easy. Never thought. Yeah.

You are the channel. How you show up matters.

And anyone can be a leader in their relationships. I think that's the other really important thing to know about our book, is that we didn't write it for leaders and managers. We wrote it for every single professional. And so there's tons of stories about colleagues that don't get along, people who don't get along with their bosses, people who. They're just everyday, real people. And somebody has to step up in that relationship to say, I'm bringing some transparency, some tools so that we can collaborate and communicate better together. And we give a whole bunch of ways to do that. In the book, we call it wayfinding. So it's not just listening and showing up. What will you say then? How will you create impact? How will you wayfind your way to the future?

How beautiful, what important work you're doing, and you embody it. I can see that. Do you think I can't let you go? One more question.

Okay, good.

You know, I do a lot of interviewing, and people at the end say, what a blast. We had fun. Part of it is smiling. I mean, it's. It's simple. Like, I'm so happy to meet you, and I mean it. But do you. Do you cover, you know, facial expressions and an openness in the eyes? Anything that people can do that they don't realize? Like, if they're just tight and they're not smiling with their eyes or Their face. It's a scary feeling. What do you think?

We have two chapters in the book that talk about that one, about how to disrupt your biology and your tense so that you can relax and pull out that smile and most importantly, engage. And we have another chapter that we just love. It's called Help, I'm under pressure. What do I do and say? But it starts with a part of the book that says, here are some pro tips about how to get your body ready to communicate, how to understand that energy is actually communication.

You can't not communicate. Everything is communication, right? Everything. Oh, people, where do we learn about you? Particularly, where do we go? Where do we get the book today?

Where do we go? So how to bridge the gap.com is our website. We have a bunch of media speaking, all that kind of stuff. And then you can buy your book anywhere that you love, whether that's an independent book store or Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere.

Beautiful, beautiful. And can we connect with you on social media? Do you like that?

Yes.

People be reaching out on LinkedIn and.

Anywhere you're there, find us at LinkedIn Katie McCleary and Jennifer Edwards. And we are engaged and love providing value, but we really love learning from other people. So find us. We'd love to learn from you. Wonderful.

And you know, people, wherever you see this, we always say this, but ask a question. And I'm having a feeling even though in your huge book launch you'll stop and do what you can to answer or offer a tip or resource. I've learned so much and so much is a reminder of things that I've forgotten because I'm, you know, for instance, no longer doing therapy. And that requires such an intense presence, and I mean intense presence with yourself. Thank you. Thank you for the work you're doing. Can't wait to have you back with your next book.

Thank you so much, Kathy.

Thank you for what you're doing in the world.

Thank you, ladies. Thank you. All right, people, I hope you have you feel uplifted and I hope it sparked something, a new learning that may be uncomfortable. Those are the best, I think. Those I hope. And we'd love to hear from you. So thank you for being here. We so appreciate it and have a wonderful week. See you next time. Hello, Kathy here and thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. I hope you loved it. One quick thing I'd love to share before you go is about my new digital training course, the Most Powerful you, which is the companion to my book, the Most Powerful you. Seven Bravery Boosting Paths to Career Bliss I'm so, so thrilled that recently a division of the largest intergovernmental agency in the world sponsored several memberships to the Most Powerful U course for members of their staff. And what a powerful move that is in terms of bringing real world effective training to both men and women to help them thrive in the workforce. Coaching so many people, as I do each year, I see that leadership and career growth training programs today are so often not effective because they simply don't go deep enough to address what really holds us back from thriving, believing in ourselves, understanding our talents and abilities, communicating effectively, asking for what we need and deserve, networking to build a great support community, and making the impact we long to so I'd love to make an ask of you, and that is to briefly take a look at what I'm teaching in the Most Powerful you course and you can find that@mostpowerful you.com and if you feel that the content about the seven damaging power gaps and how to close those for good would be helpful for you and people at your organization, I hope you'll ask your supervisors, HR leaders, and diversity and inclusion managers to sponsor memberships of this course for you and other staff so that you can all thrive at the highest level in your roles and organizations. Thank you so much. And here's to you becoming the most powerful you. Thanks so much for joining us today. And please don't forget to check out findingbrave.org for more programs, resources and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of Finding brave.