223: What To Do If You Really Want a Diverse and Inclusive Workplace, with Fields Jackson Jr.

Hello.

Kathy here.

Before today's show begins, I'd love to share some news. In these past weeks, you've heard me talk about my book, the Most Powerful you, and the video companion course that we created. Well, now I'm so excited that we are launching a live version of this course, complete with eight weekly online coaching calls with me starting May 12th. This live version allows me to work together with a group of women from around the world to directly expand your leadership strength, community, communication skills, networking abilities, negotiating your executive presence, and help you overcome the imposter syndrome that impacts 75% of executive women today. If you're facing anything that you feel is in the way of your highest, most rewarding career potential, then this is the place for you. Please do check it out at mostpowerfulyou.com livecourse and sign up by May 4th to save $500 and get some really great bonuses. Thank you so much. I hope to see you there.

If you're talking to the same people, Kathy and I tell folks this, you are going to get the same answer. So if you've got the same people in the room, I guarantee you, you're going to get the same answer.

Hello, everyone.

This is Kathy Caprino, and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created this show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week, I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of Finding Brave and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful, and meaningful life, business and career.

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. So glad you're here. So grateful that you're here and you tune in, many of you every week. I hope the show doesn't disappoint, and I hope you feel it's a wide variety of coverage of things we need to understand today to make our lives better, our cultures better, our organizations better. I know I'm learning every day. And today is just that example of how to speak with someone who understands a topic that's so important and understands it in a different way than we do. And today's guest is Fields Jackson Jr thank you so much, Fields, for being here. I'm so excited.

Absolutely. My pleasure. Absolutely.

And you're crashingly busy preparing for a new career fair.

Yes. To get people that want to get diverse hires hired so, yeah, absolutely.

So you are busy and I'm taking your time. So we're going to make this good. I want to tell you all. We are talking about what it really takes to build a diverse, equitable and inclusive work, culture and organization. So we are going to get real. We were just talking, Fields and I, about. There's so many books, so many articles, but I feel that what's missing is the real straight talk about what is actually required to build a diverse organization and culture and why there's resistance to it, why there's some lack of understanding of what has to happen. We're going to get into it.

We're going to give you straight talk.

Right, Right. All right. But I want to tell you all about Fields people so you can look up his amazing work and follow it. Fields Jackson Jr. Is currently the founder and CEO and chief cheerleader of Racing Towards Diversity magazine. He's also adjunct professor teaching Principles of Business at Shaw University and also teaching at South Carolina State and Southern University. And he is the former executive director.

Of the HBCU Business Dean Roundtable. How fascinating.

Fields was recognized by Diversity Best Practices as one of the top diversity thought leaders on Twitter and has also been identified by Analytica, my pronouncing that correctly, based in London, England, as number 13 of the top 100 global influencers focusing.

On gender equality and diversity.

Ah, so great. All right, let us dig in. I got. You know, it's like you're over for dinner. I'm going to ask you questions that maybe other people don't ask, I hope.

Absolutely.

All right, first of all, just define it. When dei, we hear the term diversity, equity, inclusion, what is it really? What is it in practice? Not the nice philosophical academic, but what is it really?

It really is including everybody, just having a fair level playing field for everyone, regardless of race, gender, creed, you know, just. So it's ideas, it's people. And again, where does the best ideas come from? Where did the best thoughts come from? They come from all different types of people. So again, if you open that up and you just use it as a business case, not that it's a dating service or something like that, why would you deprive yourself of great ideas? Why would you deprive yourself of. Of a new market? Why would you deprive yourself of new foods? Why would you. So again, it sort of just opened it up. So when you start to start to segregate those things and say, well, only these folks have good ideas, okay, that in my mind, limits what you're trying to do. If you're just, if you're looking to start a separate society, then it's probably ideal that, you know, we're just going to have, you know, it's this type of folks that we're going to have.

So we've had that. We know what that looks like.

People tried it. They really, they tried it.

They're still trying it, frankly.

Well, they're still trying it, but, you know, again, they tried it. You know, Hitler tried it. It didn't work. So again, so if you, if that's your, if that's your goal, then, you know, lean into it. Tell everybody that you're, this is what you're doing. Don't, you know, mix words of this is what we're trying to do. And now people can make a choice. Now, if I know that that's what you're doing, it helps me because if that's what you want to do, and I want no part of that, right, I'm not going to be in the same zip code when you're around. But if, if you're, if you're looking to do things and say, hey, you know, we want to build, we want to build the fat. We know the best cars. Well, the best cars meet a lot of different, you know, criteria. So you need to get a lot of people around to help you build those things. So again, it's, to me, it's just, it's not a dating service. It's not a, you know, hey, we're not going out, get married or anything like that. But again, you know, if we're going to, you know, attract the best minds, you know, we want the best people thinking about this. We want to, you know, we've got a global pandemic. So I want the best possible thoughts coming around that you got to open it up as opposed to closing it.

So that's, I love it.

Now, that's diversity as far as I'm concerned.

I love it. Now, let me ask this, and we've talked about this, you know, off the podcast, a lot of people say, I can get with what you just said. I understand the value of diversity. Where it all goes wrong is the inclusion part. So you said, you know, it's people feeling included. I would say from, and my perspective is working with thousands of mid to high level professional women who often don't feel included in all of those deep ways that only people who've been left out understand what it feels like. Sometimes you're not even. You go, what's going on here? Something's a little weird. How come I'm the only woman at the table, but not one person called on me to. We have to do more than being called on. But when I would have an idea, someone else, a guy would take it and run with it.

Wait a minute.

What's happening? Often a lack of inclusiveness. Inclusion is puzzling, and we're not sure what it is, but can you talk about. Okay, I understand I need diversity, but my view is what's missing most is that the diverse people in the organization don't really feel included. Can you talk about that?

Well, it's, you know, you could still. You could still work at a high level and not be included. So you feel like you're an outsider, but you've been in places where, you know what. And it could be, you know, you enjoy cooking and whatever that is. So when do you feel you're at your best? When you're doing your best work? I don't think if I feel excluded and I may do work and you see me there, but are you getting the best of me? Probably not. If I, If I, If I wake up in the middle of night and I dread coming to this place, okay, I can still probably perform. And, you know, sometimes you burn yourself out because I'm performing at a high level. But, you know, your, Your whole being is saying, this ain't. This doesn't write.

You work with so many. You work with leaders to help.

Yes.

Build more diversity, equity, inclusion. What are the ways. So we have people listening who manage people who are leaders. I want everyone listening, including me, to understand what are the ways we tell people, not just in words, but in every other way. What are the ways you're seeing that people come to you and go, I don't think I'm being included. Like, what are the ways that shows up? Yes. I mentioned in a meeting, how come my ideas, they just lay flat. But, but the guys in the room, their ideas are brilliant. You know, I'm not bashing men here.

No, no, no.

With every underrepresented group at, you know, but what other ways do people not feel included?

Well, you know, being a, you know, inclusive leader, you can be a, you know, you can be a leader. There's bad leaders. I mean, there's people that are bullies and they're terrible leaders. But sometimes the organization that, that way of doing business is promoted. So you're telling everybody that the way to get to the top is to bully and berate. And so again, you know, you can, you can probably feel that when you walk into the building, you know, there's this hostility and the tough guy, you know, so, again, if that's the way, and I'm not that type of person, well, you're probably not going to hear a peep out of me now. The sad thing is, what if I'm the smartest person in the room? And, you know, sometimes people, you're not gonna. You're not gonna get any of my. My feedback. So, like, being a good coach, being a good mom, being a good dad, you know, it's. It's a skill set. And there's people that are better at it than others. There's people that, you know what, As a. As a. Some of my greatest leaders, some of the people that helped me the most, a lot of, you know, some of it was negative because I said, okay. I saw how badly that person treated that. That person who raised their hand, and I said, wow, if I ever get in a position. So it was like neg. I said, if I ever get a position, man, I don't want to do that. That was.

Yeah, you know, you learn by example what not to do.

Oh, you were so bad. Leadership, actually. So that just crushed Harry, you know, and the guy went up and jumped off a building. So. So now I said, man, I want to do that. So you also see the other side of that, where you've been in those situations where, you know, I've had leaders where, you know, I would do anything for them. You know, they would. You know, they just. They treated you, you know, white, black, you know, they just treated you. They come in, they had a. You know, doesn't have to smile on their face all the time, but they came in and you just. Your whole spirit just picked up. And he said, hey. So the guy would say, hey, you know what, guys? I need to go out. We need to move the building. And I know you can't move the building, but I'm out there with everybody. We're trying to push the building because this guy said it.

He said, I gotta do it. I'm doing it, and we gotta do it.

And there's other people that said, hey, we gotta work overtime. And I'm going, you know, I'm counting the seconds to get out of this place. And everybody's, you know, you know, you've been around on the planet. Everybody's been away. You know, I can't stand the. This place. It's. I'm breaking out. So all kind of stuff's happening to me, right? And somebody asked me to do something and guess what? I'm not doing anything extra here for.

You or for this place or this place.

So, you know, five o' clock and I'm, I'm exploding out the door. I'm not running, I'm. It's like an explosion and I'm out the door. So what's the difference? What you know, you see, there's a difference where, you know, this one guy says, hey, feels I need you to work another hour. Gladly. You didn't have to ask. So that comes down to leadership. I see those people, you know, they, they usually, you know, have happy teams. The teams do really well. The teams are diverse. Everybody seems to get along. They, hey, you know, I want to have, have you come over my house. It's, it's like a, it's like a family. And I've got places where, guess what? You asked me, you know, I'm not going anywhere near this place.

So can I dimensionalize that for a minute? When I think of those kinds of situations where I'll do anything for my boss or it's like a family, I.

Would say these are the elements that are needed.

Tell me if I'm getting it right. First of all, there's trust. Yes, that you are not gonna crush me. You're gonna listen. You may not agree, but you're gonna treat me with respect. You're gonna recognize that I'm trying to contribute. So there's trust. There is also when you see, you know, it's very difficult. You might love your boss, but when you see the senior leaders, like I remember one president of a company I work for said to my boss in a high level meeting, this boss said something, and the president said, well, duh, duh, yeah. To my senior vice president, boss. I mean, so sometimes you like your manager, but the leadership, the way people act, demeaning, narcissistic. They're only looking at maybe the color of your skin or gender as who's got anything valuable to say. There's also how you handle challenge. Like with diversity comes, I don't want to say conflict, difference. So if you're standing there running a meeting and you say you have a diverse culture and it's inclusive, yet people that challenge you, you crush them or humiliate them or shame them. You don't have a diverse, inclusive culture. Here's a question, and if I say it wrong and offensively, you're gonna let me know. But I remember when we had a chat a while ago, so I'm a white woman and my swim lane is helping Women. And I will be honest, when Black Lives Matter really came into the forefront, a lot of people were asking me, okay, you talk about women's issues. Now I want the lay the filter of people of color. What are women of color facing? And while I understand the data, you know, women, for instance, make. I don't even know what it is today. 75, 75 cents to the dollar of white men, black women, you know, it's. It's less, much less. I said, and I realize this is a mistake and I got to address it. But I view women as a collective who are dealing with issues, and I'm facing it that way. Whereas it would be better for me to understand specific underrepresented groups and their issues as well. But here's what I'm saying. You mentioned stuff that you have gone through as a black man and what you see with. In HBCUs with, you know, black students that I want white people to hear. Would you mind sharing what you. Even. What you have experienced, you know, in employment when you were in your younger years and also what you see even today about discrimination against the black students you are working with. Would you mind talking about that?

Well, no, I think, you know, you know, I been around quite a long time. I think there's. To me, there's been a change. Well, at least there was a. There was a. To me, there's been. Because I'm. I'm optimistic. I know there's a lot of chatter out there, but the thing that changed in my life was George Floyd.

Yeah.

And again, the tragic way he died was. Was an eye opener to a lot of folks. Not me.

Not you.

No, that, you know, I've heard.

This is.

This is from my grandfathers, you know, from. Since I've been a little guy. This has happened to black people.

I see what you mean.

This has happened. What changed was that, you know, the.

World, the rest of the world saw.

It at the sea for eight minutes. A young girl who was brave because that policeman was leaning in on her, that held that camera, didn't turn it away for eight minutes. And you got to see man's inhumanity to man in its rawest form. That's what changed.

Now, do you see people's minds having been changed now?

Not everybody. Not Everybody. I've had CEOs, I had, you know, then I had a CEO call me after that, and he was in tears. He had friends. He was a white CEO. He was in. He said, fields. He said, you know, again, you see that? And he said, fields, I can't believe that happened. And he was, you know, just as a friend, he was kind of sharing, he said. I said, well. I said, how'd it make you. He said, it was terrible. I said, you know, and he was just. He was going on, and he was in tears. And I said, well, you know what? I hate that to happen to you, but again, that's been in my world.

You know, this has been your reality.

This is my morality. It feels. That can't be. I go, no, that's the way it is. That's the way it is. So he said, you know, now I get you had black and brown employees. And he said, what do I do? I said, well, did you say anything to your employees? He goes, no, I don't think I can. I'm not a black guy. I said, no, you're not a black guy. He said, well, you know. I said. I said, well, you got. You know, was it. And I said, no, this is what you got to do. Decide what you saw. Was it right or was it wrong? He said, it was wrong. I said, you got to say that the silence is there's no more silence. Because, again, you know, I guarantee. And I've said this on other programs, I said, your black and brown employees, right, when they came to work, because everybody was traumatized. The whole world was traumatized in one way or another. So when they came back from work, the first thing their family asked me said, hey, how was work today? Because again, it was like one of those moments. How was work today? Oh, man, it was. Everybody was like, you know, so did your boss say anything? No. Now, in my world, the default mechanism is that you are okay with that because I wasn't. Okay. I said, well, you didn't say anything.

Right?

Right. So silence is. There's no more. There's no more. Because when you go silent, I'm thinking you're my default, is that you are okay with that. And the thing is, if. If you weren't okay with that, then just say, hey, I'm not saying you got to get out. And again, do not get out and start talking about how many black friends you have. Do not get out and start quoting the Bible. But just say, hey, you know what? I saw something the other day. I. You know, I was not aware that that was happening. But you know what? That was wrong. And now, again, what I'd like to do is now going forward, let's see if we can get some employee resource groups. We need to talk about this and see how at least in our little Small part of the world. We can make this better. Now, that does one or two things. Now, when your employees go home, did your boss say anything? Yes. Oh, my God. Right. Oh my God. Now, the thing is, and you know this, there's 800 bosses that didn't say a word. Still didn't say a word. Right.

So again, I'm dying to ask this.

If I'm working for you, right? You may not, you may not have those, those feelings. But if I'm thinking that, okay, I'm working for a guy that thought that was okay. You had politicians that say that was okay. It was just a, you know, it was just a police activity. So there's all kind of stuff going on out here. So now where do I stand with, with this person? So again, to me, it ended the silence. It almost. You had to say, okay, was this right or was it wrong? And then if it was, if it was wrong, what do you intend to do about it? Right? And if it was, if it was right, if it was okay, I mean, now you come out and say it. So now I, you know, and this is, you see, the mass resignation people are now, because either they were treated badly or things are happening. You're starting to see these people that are voting with their feet. You know, I'm not going to work for somebody that treats women that way or whatever the situation. So I know it's a long question.

Question because we're going to get to how do we build a, how do we do this? A diverse, inclusive culture. I think that there's a group inside of that group that doesn't say anything. And they don't say anything because they're scared of saying the wrong thing.

I think, what's, it's right or wrong, there's nothing wrong. So you either say, I don't want you to elaborate and stand into. So was it right or was it wrong? Yes, it's binary. Right or wrong.

Now let me ask you something, because you work with leaders. Has anyone ever said, I believe it was wrong, but if I stand up and say was wrong, people will leave. Do you ever have anybody worried about that? And what do you tell them? What do you tell them?

It's, it's, it's, it's your belief. Now, what are your core beliefs?

Right. Right.

So if you, there's people that told me, you know, feels, I thought he had it coming. Wow, okay, I disagree. I'm not going to argue with you. But you know what? If you know, and I'd say, you know what I Wish I hope that wasn't your son under somebody's knee. Well, you know, so again, you know, that's, that's, that's your opinion. But now, now I'm making a choice, right? Because now if you're telling me, you know, I think that was okay and feels I want you to come help me run my diversity program, I'm going.

To tell you, no, let me ask this. I'm getting deep. I hope these are okay questions.

Oh, these are all great questions.

I mean, this is what no one will ask because so they don't know what the hell to do.

You have to ask.

You got to ask. All right, so that's a question. Have you heard? So let me just state so people understand. I would have no problem saying that. I mean, I have a small team in my business, I might say. I think we're all probably suffering from what we've seen. If anyone wants to talk about it, I am here. I might do it that way. But this is what I want to ask you. Has anyone said to you, I don't want to go political? Like, one thing this is all done is we realize. How do I put this? That everything. That who we are professionally is inextricably linked with who we are personally. You can't separate it. And we've been. A lot of career coaches say, I don't talk about the personal. What. I mean, how are you getting anything done? I mean, you are a person when you show up to your leadership. But have you ever had recently a leader say, I don't want to get political. I don't want to make that statement. And of course, I don't think this is political. I think this is humanity. But have you had any leaders say, I don't want to do that.

Absolutely. But in not saying anything, you said something, so.

And you made it political.

You made, you made it. What did your boss say? He said nothing.

Okay, we can guess. He or she is either too afraid or guess what?

Now, Now I'm gonna. Now all the assumptions come in. Now I'm gonna. Because you didn't say anything right or wrong. Right. So again, I'm not, I'm not a diversity person. And you could admit I'm not a diversity person. I saw something that was. Shocked me. I didn't know. I'm 90 years old. I've never seen anything like that in my life. However, I've got a thousand employees, and I know if that affected me, it had to affect my employees. So I'd like to. What's the Best way to go, sort of about going, getting to that. Now this is where you start to talk. You're actually talking to your employees. Imagine that. Hey, you know, I'm not going to get into a Kumbaya session here. But you know what, how did that affect you? You know, does anybody raise your hand? Does anybody know anybody that does counseling around this stuff? So again, it shows whether you do it or not, it shows you care. Now you say, hey, you know what? He had it coming. Wow. Okay, now there's going to be a group of folks that maybe they raise their hand. Yeah, he had his comment. Okay, so those folks will follow you. And guess what? The other folks are going, you know what? I don't know if I can. No. Now the decisions start to get made. Now I don't know if I want to work for a place that, you know what? So again, it just happened to be that moment. It just happened that everybody saw it. It was just one of those things that just. It was just. It was one of those marks in time where, you know, you got a chance to sort of say, hey, this is what we're doing. So to me, every. It's not political to say, hey, you know what? I'm coming. You know, I'm spending 80% of my time here. I spend more time here with my family, right? So if I'm going to. And people say, bring your whole self to work. Bring yourself to work. You know, And I, you know what? And the thing is it, whether I say right or wrong, there's no reason for me to pull a knife. And, okay, that's how you think. Okay, this is how I. And then now the other side. You need to hear how I think.

Now let me ask this. Having been a therapist and working with a lot of professionals, many are not skilled in communication. So here's what I would ask.

Go ahead.

If someone came to me and said, now, I don't consult with leaders, I consult with the levels below, I would say, and this is what I do. You know, I run courses. And often a very therapeutic issue, a very deep, problematic issue emerges. I won't do therapy right there. But I know, because I was a former therapist, how to create a safe space for that person who's weeping, for that person who's suffering. I know what to do. And I know also how. How to refer them out to a service, an organization, an erg that has better tools. So one thing I would say, people, is, yes, you want to make a stand, but I would not encourage a debate right there. You're not skilled enough to run it. You're not skilled enough. I would say, if we want to talk about it, I would point them into a direction. So would you say, is this where an employee resource group would be helpful? Is this where. What other places can we skillfully address all of the emotion and anxiety and hatred and fear that many of us have? Where do we.

Everybody's got those things. But again, it depends now if, you know, it could be an employee. It could be. But again, if this, if the person that's expressing this run has a thousand people working for him, you got a problem.

Yeah, you mean if they're expressing. I don't think it was a problem. He.

I don't think. Hey, I don't think it was a problem. You know? You know, you know. So again, all right, so you say, you know now. Hey, you know, and now the next step is to, you know, how your diversity numbers. I don't believe in diversity. So again, now you get into. Okay, no wonder university numbers. So you're not even trying to do this, are you? No. Okay. I appreciate. To me, I appreciate the honesty. Oh, my goodness.

And boy, I want to. I'm writing this down. I want to talk about. Because look at you. We're already at the end of our time. No measurement. I want to get to that. How do we measure? But before that, would you agree with me that very well meaning people are sometimes poor communicators?

Oh, they're terrible.

And sometimes erupt a scenario. But again, their faulty communication.

But you can be. So the thing is, the situation now demands a different leader now.

Yeah.

So the time is also, again, you could been a leader and now all of a sudden, you know what? You are a terrible communicator. And it's been. Now it's been identified. And you know what? And this is what, you know, you've been here 20 years, Hank, and you're my best buddy. But guess what? You know, you're not the, you're not the person for this.

Right.

Right. You know what? Because again, you know, so again, the time now dictates we need to. We need to either start training. Let's get you in some. Some kind of training. Well, I don't want to do it. Well, Hank, I'm telling you, man, you know, this is important.

And you know what?

We got people leaving in droves.

And also it should be part of your mission. Here's what we support. We support equality. We support fairness in every way that that shows up. It should be part of your Bylaws, part of your mission, stated. So Hank or Sally or Sally or. I get it. But, but if you look at what our core mission has become, and it changed last year, but if you're not aligned with that, it's not a fit any longer.

Right. And that, that's just. And again, now you adjust, just like you would adjust if somebody's not hitting their sales numbers, just like you would adjust if somebody's not hitting their budget. You see what I'm saying? So the thing is, everybody gives diversity a pass. No, it's a business. It's business. Right. So if your business is, hey, we want all white male, say it. Put it on your mission statement. There's no confusion, and you're probably going to run into problems with the Justice Department, Right?

Yeah, you're going to get sued.

But again, everybody's clear. Right? So that's what happens when you, when you get, when you get that definitive with it. So the thing is, now, because of the numbers, even though you're not, you're not, you're not, you know, visibly saying this, the numbers are also showing that this is what you think.

And I love how. Yeah, that's what you think. Put that on paper and see how that looks in on LinkedIn.

Correct.

If you don't get your. I don't mean to be snarky. Pull it back.

No, no, no, don't.

Self awareness. All right. I don't really. You say that. People tell you, I don't believe in diversity. Like my world, I don't know what the hell language they're talking. But if someone said that to me, I'd, as a therapist background, I'd say, okay, you're entitled to your opinion, but put that on paper and put that on LinkedIn and see how well that goes for you.

I've walked into rooms and you've, you've heard this. You know, I. Well, how come you don't have any women on your board? I can't find anybody. I just said, you know what? And I said, you know, please don't say that you can't find anybody because half the planet is women. Half the planet. So again, you know, I can't find any. So there's women running congressmen, there's women running, you know, universities. You can't find anybody. And I said, you know, you know.

You know, you're not looking.

You're not even looking. So, you know, have you bounces, you know, have you bounced this off your wife? Do you have a dog? You know what I'm saying so again.

And then you come at them like that, and how do they get mad?

So, you know, so your wife has no friends. What are you talking about? Hey, you know what? You can't find women. I mean, that is. Ooh, that's a. That's a statement where, you know, you're saying half the planet can't mentally meet the challenges that you're. You're proposing here. That's not good. And especially if you're selling a women's line of clothes. Not a good look, bro. Not a good look. So usually, you know, depending on how that meeting goes, I'm probably not getting it asked back, but that's fine because again, you don't want to do this, so why waste our time here? You don't want to do it. You don't want to do it. So now you're making these definitive statements. I can't find women I don't want to be anywhere near when the photo op comes out. I don't want to be anywhere near you if that's what you think.

Haven't you. And if you can share this, if you can, I totally understand. But in. In your racing toward Diversity magazine, have there been some people that have said, how come you're not featuring me?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. All the time. And I tell them, I said, hey, you know what? We have a top 25 that we've. We track about. About 600 companies. We got about top 25 in terms.

Of diversity measurement, which we're.

Diversity measure. There's companies that we believe are doing a tremendous job in recruiting, recruiting, retaining diversity.

They got a advancement.

And the thing is, and we have no financial tie with them. They don't sponsor. They're not anything. And we've got some companies that, you know, again, they sponsor us and we do events with them. And so. And so we got about six or seven companies that actually are in that top 25 that, you know, we get some type of, I won't say pay to play, but, you know, we believe in what they're doing, right? We've had other ones that, guess what? You know, they, they, they don't even know who we are. But based on the metrics that we track, the board of directors, you look at their. If you look at their C suite, right? You look at the programs, you look at their social media, it's sort of transparent to us that, you know, who sort of believes in this. You go to their Facebook page, and everybody on the Facebook page that looks like me is not saying they're quitting or they hate the place. So you sort of get a feel for, you know, what's out there in the environment. So there's companies out there that are, you know what, Kathy? You don't hear about crazy stuff in the news, I'm telling you. You just don't hear. Then there's companies that every week there's something, there's something crazy coming out of the CEO's mouth or so again, we tend to stay away from those, those folks, you know, they're very, some of them are very good at photo ops and checking boxes and all in all the surface kind of things. Right. But yet still, when you ask them about diversity, there's this, this hostility, you know, hey, man, you know, so, you know, so, so part of that, we tend to try to stick around those companies where, you know, they don't have a problem, you know, single, there's, there's, there's women that, you know, you talk to the women in and they go, man, I love working here, man. They give me time. So again, you talk to the people that are actually, forget about the bosses. You walk in here and say, man, you know what? This is one of the best places I ever heard, ever worked for. And then you go, and you go to places where there's black or Hispanic people and they go, man, you know what this is? This is the greatest place I've worked for. And then you go to other places where, guess what? You hit the door and there's so much hostility. You feel it. I mean, it's just, I don't know, I don't feel, I'm a psychic or anything, but you feel these dominoes. This is a restaurant and I don't want to eat here. I tell my wife, check. You know, everybody's like, you know, snapping at you like, you know, hey, I like to order. Hey, waiter, I like to order. What? Hey. Oh, hey, I'm good. Check.

Just the water, please.

Check. Hey, you know what? If you're treating me this way and you're the waiter, I don't know what they're doing back there. But guess what? When my friends come to town, I'm not telling them to come see you. I'm going to tell them to go over here when I hit the door, whatever I look like. Hey, Mr. Jackson, how are you? How's Mrs. Jackson? You know, there's a way to treat people, and there's people like, guess what? I'm going to treat you any way I feel like treating you. And what happens now, Kathy? People Are voting with their feet. People say this mass resignation. Yeah, you were treating people bad. And you know what? They woke up one day and go, you know what? I'm not doing this anymore.

Why would I stay here?

Why would I stay here? But what happens is there's companies where all of a sudden there's an uptick in their hiring. Why is that? Because there are people saying, hey, you know what, you make a little bit less money over here, but you know, they treat you, they treat you nice, they don't treat you bad. They acknowledge you in the morning, you know, you know, if you've got an idea, you know, and even, even if you, even if you can't speak, they'll. Fields is so smart. We're gonna, we'll learn something. Like, we'll learn because this guy is, you know, so there's companies out there and this is what's great about America. You don't, you don't have. It's like Russia. You have to work here. No, you can work anywhere you want. And people are doing that. And I think those companies that have diversity inclusion and they're that type of company, have better products, they got better services. It's great to work there. And the ones that are, guess what, the guy is, you know, everybody has to be, you know, white. White, you know, national. Okay, then put that sign up front, let everybody know and you'll feel better. I'll feel better.

It's too much.

It's too. Ian, I love your straightforwardness. I want to ask one other question so people understand and then are you okay for five more minutes?

Oh, absolutely. This is, I love talking to you.

Thank you. When we last talked, you talked about being, I want to get it right, executive director of the HBCU Business Dean Roundtable. And you mentioned something really instrumental that happened with career fairs, with hiring that you. Maybe not single handedly, but something huge that happened that was positive. Do you know what I'm referring to?

Yeah.

Can you talk about that so people can understand what this looks like in practice? How we move the needle in our own organizations and not just talk the talk. Do you know what I'm talking about?

How we moved. And again, I'm no longer the executive director. I did a four year stint and it was one of the, you know, I did not go to an hbcu, but I became immersed in what an experience was unbelievable. So the way it started was some of the companies I work with, we're looking for, I think interns or something. And we were talking about something Else. And they said, well, you know, Mr. Jackson, while we're on the subject, you know, we're having a tough time finding diverse candidates for this internship. And I said, okay. So I'm thinking maybe it's rocket science or, you know, patent attorney or something with, like, so narrow, you know, real narrowness. I said, what is. It was a sales and sales job. And I said, you've got to be kidding me. I said, no, we're having a tough time. So I jokingly, and this was about six years ago, my youngest, Austin, was in college. And I joke. And again, I just, you know, you know, I tend to spin things the other. I said, well, if you only need 100, you only need 99 now, because Austin's mama, my wife, will pack a lunch and Austin will be there tomorrow. Well, they laughed.

He was a senior then. He was a senior.

He was a sophomore. It was a sophomore. It was an internship. It was a great, you know, internship. You know, a lot of kids can't find these internships, right? Hey, I call Austin, I said, I got your job, right? So I said, you know, so if you only need 100, you only need 99, because Austin will be there tomorrow, so where do you need him, right? You know, his mom will pack a lunch. He'll be there. And I said, well, send it over to me, because I'm. I'm running into all these kids that are telling me they can't find these things. So I'll find you the kids, right? So I sent it off to a couple schools, and two days later, the company called me back, said, Mr. Jackson, how did you do this? I said, do what? I said, we got over 200 resumes the next day.

And you sent them to HBCUs, to a couple deans.

I just. I didn't send them to a couple deans.

They sent them dean.

Those couple people, couple deans. And, you know, each dean, they got about 20 kids. Hey, get. You know, get in the bus. So they said, well, how did you do this? And I was like, how come you can't. You got the big search firm, you got hit, you know, so how come you can't.

They were recruiting at these universities.

Well, the thing is, if you're. If you're. If you're talking to a narrow. If you're talking to the same people, Kathy and I tell folks this. This is why diversity. You are going to get the same answer. So if you've got the same people in the room, I guarantee you, you're going to get the same Answer.

I mean, they didn't think to recruit at career fairs, they would say.

They told me they couldn't find anybody, just like they can't find women.

So they weren't really trying, were they?

Well, I won't say they weren't really trying, but again, you got. You. You get somebody else. I came in with a new idea. That's all it was, Right. So I. So I said, well, and I didn't want to.

Different connections than that.

Different connections. A whole nother. So this fish you're fishing in, this pond, there's all these other little ponds over here, and the fish are big. Because nobody fishes in the pond doesn't mean it's a bad fish. So I said, I said, well, you got any more jobs? He said, yeah. I said, we'll send them over. So I start sending out these jobs to all the HBCUs that nobody ever would go to. So you go down to Tuscalooga, Tugaloo, Mississippi, and drive four hours west. Nobody's going, but guess what? There's some great kids there. So that's how I started to really connect with the HBCUs, because I'm sending out these great jobs. And I called. So it was working so successful for me that I was finding pipeline talent for this company. So again, it wasn't rocket science. I said, well, let me call a couple other companies I'm working with. I said, hey, you know, are you having a tough time? They said, Mr. Jackson, off the record, we're struggling. I said, hey, send those jobs over to me. So I'm just. And I'm just doing this. I'm just sending these jobs out now. It's helping me because I'm providing value to the companies I'm working with, right? You don't hear them on tv. You don't. You don't hear them on tv. You don't have the CEO on TV talking about, I can't find it. So again, not. Not, you know, Mr. Jackson sending us over a busload of kids. So what happened is, again, people, you tend to go to what's familiar, right?

But can I just amplify? That's what diversity does. When I hear you speak about that idea, it's so darn obvious. But no, not to. Not to someone who hasn't lived in your shoes. That's what diversity is.

But that's what diversity is.

And so when people say, one person raises their hand. How about this? Have you ever thought of a Hispanic language problem product?

Right.

No. You know, that's what diversity Is it isn't brain science to you, but it's brain science to this darn leadership team.

I think it's leadership. It's having. It's having the. Having the strength to say, hey, look, you know what?

I can't help.

I need help. We can't figure this out. I can't, you know, I got this great opportunity, which is a great opportunity, and I can't find kids for this thing right now. I could put my head in the sand and go, well, you know what? I tried. And you know what? These kids don't know what?

They don't want it.

They don't want it. They don't know even know. So now the thing is, the brave part is that, hey, Mr. Jackson comes in as opposed to that and go, nah, those kids. So no, look at these kids. So again, that's diversity. I call it leadership. I call it leadership. You're going the wrong way.

So you're not thinking. You're hiding what your challenges are. You're pretending you don't have challenges. You're not opening up to different ways of thinking.

Correct.

It's really so simple.

But a different way of thinking is if I've got a room full of women. Yeah, I need a different way of thinking. So how do I bring a male in here that you'll get ripped to shreds. So that's part of that whole process where he says, you know what? You know, and again, you know, Hank sitting over in the corner because, you know, so Hank's sitting there and you go, hey, you know what?

Angry women. I'm going to be quiet.

But the thing is now how do we change. Change this, right? So again, you see this, your leader, you see this happening, and so everybody's going, well, you know what, we keep rehashing the same things. You know, the numbers aren't getting better, gang. So I guess what, hey, Hank, what do you think? And Hank goes, well, you know, I don't mean to change anything, but why don't we go here now again, you try it doesn't work. Doesn't mean you kill Hank. But what if you. Again, it's a new way of doing it now, what if it worked? That's diversity. So you want to get the. To me, you want the best minds thinking about something. So if the best. If we want to attack, if we're not getting Hispanic folks, me sitting here without a Hispanic person in the room is insane to me.

It's insane. I want to add one fight that I love it. I'm Going to add one more thing and see if you agree. And then we got to figure out where we can learn more, where people can go to get. But I mentioned it in another podcast, but it's too good not to say it again. When I was doing market research for a published book publishing company, I hired a market research moderator, focus group moderator, Ann Dobbs. She led every focus group saying this thing. Every one of you, ten of you, has been carefully selected because you represent our community, our audience, our buyers. We would be missing out if we didn't hear from you. So every idea has value. Now, here are the ground rules. Fred may not agree with Sue. We don't say, I don't agree. That's not the. This is not the place for that. What we say is, I would like to build on what sue said, and you share your idea. And, you know, I was, whatever, 30, and I watched she set the ground rules, and we had hundreds and hundreds of focus groups in different countries. Everyone toed the line, and when they didn't, she would let them have it in a, you know, a professional way. Frank, remember, we're not tearing down ideas because every idea here has value. Now, what do you want to say? It's. When you do that, you said it very clearly. And if you. Frank, you don't like it, you know, off you go. You're not in our focus group.

What do you think that person should be a CEO? That person should be a board member. That person. So again, that type of person, male, female, that type of person now has the ability to lead that type of group. See what I'm saying?

I do.

So that now when somebody says, I can't find a board member, that's. That's her. So the thing is part of what the CEO, and I call it a talent scout. How do you find talent? What is t. What does it look like? How do you find talent? How do you find. You know, so again, there's people out there that can identify. So I think the greatest skill is talent. And the people that can identify that talent. And the talent could. And one of the best examples. Remember. What's his name? What's his name?

He.

What's his name? He was. He was in a wheelchair. What was his.

Oh, not Stephen Hawking. No, that's Stephen Hawkins.

Stephen Hawking.

Hawking. Yeah.

Brilliant.

What a mind. Ah.

Now, if you look at him. Right, Right. Oh, what does he get? The thing is, people were listening to his whispers. The guy was just. Every word. Every word. They listened to his whispers. But again, now if I got a hang up around him, who loses? So part of that, the skill. Especially with the larger corporations, you can have a small one. It's just, you know, you and your family, you get a larger corporation. How do I identify talent? How do I identify people that can, you know, we move to move organization forward and doesn't. It's not about agreeing. Move it forward. Right. They're doing it in an ethical way. They're achieving their results. They are able to shift and get the best out of their groups. And again, in my lifetime, I've seen it. I've seen it. I can smell it. I can smell what the room smells like when that happens. I can feel what it feels like when that happens.

You're the diversity whisperer.

It is. But again, it's like an animal. What is diversity or not? I've been to places where nobody wants to be here.

Yeah.

Now I can't say that's diversity. You know, say. But there's nobody, nobody wants to be here. And everybody's afraid. I don't operate. No, most people do not. I don't. If I'm in, if I'm in a school, you're not going to get my best grades if I'm afraid. But if I'm, if I'm able to do my full self and whatever that is, I can come in. And again, at the end of the day, we go off because I'm not going on a date or anything. I'm not getting. So we go off and guess what? You respect my opinion. I respect your opinion. I've seen that where people just. The results are unbelievable. And I believe that's diversity. I believe that's the business case for diversity.

Now where do people learn about you? Where do they get your magazine? You have a LinkedIn newsletter. You have so much. Where do they go?

They go to racing tour diversity. We got an online publication. We put out a daily newspaper. It's free. We, we talk with thought leaders that, around the world that kind of share their best practices. I like to think of it as like the Harvard Business Review for diversity. So we've got thought leaders all over the world, from supplier diversity to, you know, different, different ways of looking at religion and science. So again, all that kind of comes together. And so if you, if you're looking to start, I would start with that. Who's doing, who's doing it the best? Who's winning? Okay. That doesn't mean you got to set your bar here. But again, who's not getting sued every day? Let's start with that as a model. That doesn't mean you're going to get there. But again, you sort of need to know, and that's why the measurement. How do you know when you're winning? The only way I know if I'm winning is if I can measure this. And even, even if my diversity. And again, it's like, you know, you want to go to the doctor, doctor's going to take your blood pressure. It just doesn't, you know, feel you and go, okay. No, it takes your blood pressure, okay, either it's good or bad. Now we've got a baseline. So once we have the baseline, okay, we got zero diversity. Okay, now this is something you want to do. How do we, how do we become. Unless I get crazy, how do we become 2% in a year? 2%. That means out of every hundred people, two, two need to be diverse. Now if your organization is fighting the.

Two, you have a bigger problem than metrics.

You got, you got a problem.

And, you know, I would love you to send me an article on how we measure diversity, because it's not just number of women, number of people of color. It isn't just that. I think is, is just that it's pretty. Just that it's pretty.

It's, it's numbers. So again, unlike any other department.

You.

Got, you got a sales quote, okay? You got a budget quarter, right?

I know what money. I know the number. I know the sales, you know, feels.

You got to go from 3 to 5%. That's your, that's your goal. That's how you're going to get that. You know, part of the sales is what drives the corporation. So we don't hit these targets. You know, everybody cut the lights off. So we got to do this right. So that's tracked weekly, is tracked quarterly. So you've got a budget. The budget's a million dollars. If you keep going over your budget, number one, why even have the budget, but you keep going over your budget. So there's numbers for everything else except for diversity. And they go, diversity. Well, no, no, you know what, so what is, what is our. Is diversity important? Yes again, yes or no? If it is, what is your number now? And everybody goes, well, I don't want to disclose. No, no, no, you have to. So what is. Even if it's a bad, even if it's a terrible number, what is the number now?

And I would also, I'll link to it. I interviewed, I believe it was Timothy Clark. I'll confirm on psychological safety so first you got to move the needle on the literal metrics of the diverse group that you have. But then you also have to make sure it's inclusive for them. It's not just I tick the box. There's three black people and four women.

No, no.

But then it's also, how can they thrive there?

How can they thrive? But the thing is. Yeah, the thing is, you have to start.

You got to start. I'm with.

You got to start. So that's the toughest part to start. So what is our diversity numbers now? It's 2%. So again, don't throw anybody under the bus. It's 2%. Okay, what would you like it to be? Well, you know, I don't want to rock the boat or anything. So 2%. Okay, then you. Okay, so 2%'s fine. Hey, live with that. Live with it, right? So the thing is, if I want to go from 2 to 5%, that's going to take me measuring this. Right? So again, we're gonna start. So diversity is a lot. Diversity is a lot of things, right? So if you're at 2%, you're not really good at anything, to tell you the truth. Right? But we're gonna get better, right? So from 2 to 5%. So every. Every hundred people. So who's. How many. How many wrecks do we have for hiring? Okay, we've got these wrecks, okay? So for every hundred people, we need to go from two to five people. And people say, well, that's reverse discrimination. Wait, wait, 95% are just, you know, whoever. They'd be the whitest guys on the planet, you know, the whitest guys on the planet. Five need to be diverse. Now, if I'm hung up arguing with that, I need to find the leaders that are arguing with me that going from 2 to 5 is a problem that's going to wreck the corporation, really. Now, this could be. Now this is where the leadership comes in, because this could be my best buddy. This could be the VP I had. This could be the thing. This is the guy that I thought, you know, was. Everybody loved. And all of a sudden I'm seeing the side of you that's telling me that you're going to fight this. Now, even if you sitting there smiling at me by the end of the quarter, I said, okay, where are we? Well, not only at 2, we went to 1. Because you see this place, you know, it actually went backwards. Now, if it goes backwards, this is the accountability. What happens? Do I promote you? Do I not? So hey feels he's just talking, you know, he ain't no meaning. So now, hey, you know what? Next quarter, they go into the meeting, and guess what? Feels is no longer there. Whoa. I guess he was serious about. Yeah, he's serious about this, right? Well, you know what? And now. Now again, we'll run out the excuse. I can't find anybody. Well, you know what? This bad feels came in and he.

Goes to these places, 100 people.

He goes to these places called hgrus or whatever. He goes to these places and, you know, he seems to find people. So had you talked to him? You know, he's a good guy. Have you talked to him? Nah, you know, I don't. I don't like the way. You know what I'm telling you. Telling you, Jones, next quarter, you need to move this from three to five. And I'm here. I'm gonna help you. If you can't find anybody, we'll bring some folks. You see what I'm saying? We'll bring some folks. Because I. I want you to remain in the corporation, Jones. I do. So I'll help you. So at the end of the year, now what happens? It stayed at 2. Was there. So again, if my. My sales goal was going from two to five, right? And I always tell us, like, I would love to be. I would love to be in the boardroom when you're giving your quarterly numbers and they go, well, how come. How come we didn't hit these sales numbers? Well, you know, I couldn't find the right channels. Before you finish that line of thought.

Feels separation agreement right there, you know.

To pursue personal, you know, feels is gone. This is the only place that you get away with this. And how. How is that? So that's. That's just me. And I think it's. I don't want to say it's simple. It's nothing simple. It's tough, but there's ways that if you're serious about it, okay, we're going to. We're going to get the right folks in the room. And again, you need to know if you're not. I want you to be the right person. But if you're not, I need to find out now.

I'm so grateful for your honest talk.

And your honest view.

Truthfully, you make it very simple.

It's simple. It's not easy.

Because nothing's easy.

Nothing's easy.

Sales are not easy. Hitting my budget's not easy. Nothing's easy.

But if it matters, if it's worthwhile, it's not easy.

If I'm getting into a new market, how do I measure the new market? So it's not easy, but again, I'm going to measure whether or not we need to be in this market or not. Do the same thing with diversity. And a lot of the stuff goes away. I don't say goes away, but it's.

Because it resolves itself because of focus and measurement. You get serious on who's getting it.

Done as opposed to what they look like, who's going to love it.

All right, everyone, first of all, I can't thank you so much for your time.

My pleasure. I can't thank you for this.

Oh, so good. I want to hear from you. My friends. I hope this has perturbed something in you. You know, if we're not, we're not messing things around here for you. If we, if you don't have questions, I'm not doing my job. Fields isn't doing his job. We want questions. We want to hear. Wait, I don't understand. We are diverse individual. We support diversity. So if you have challenges to this, we'd love to hear. Wherever you see this on all the social platforms, we would love to hear from you. And please share this and scoop up everything Fields is doing because it's really making a difference in the world. Thank you again. Thank you, Kathy, and have a wonderful week, everyone. We'll see you next time.

Thanks so much for joining us today. And please don't forget to check out findingbrave.or for more programs, resources and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of finding grave.