227: Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving with Amy E. Herman

I show them a work of art, something they've never seen before. Tell me what you see and I pull it together in a way that they can take back to their work with them.

Hello, everyone. This is Kathy Caprino, and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created this show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week, I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of Finding Brave and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful, and meaningful life, business and career. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. Kathy Caprino here today, and this is coming to you in mid May. So I do hope we're a little before that right now, but I hope your May is going wonderfully and the weather is nice right now. It is not so nice, but we're getting there. Spring I am so excited for our guest today, Amy Herman, who your work is so unique and how you have taken two very different disciplines and your passion for those and married them up to be of such great service. Amy, I can't wait to dive in and I have so many questions. Thank you for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.

Oh, fun. And here you are just off a plane from training FBI agents, right? Oh, my goodness.

Thank you for being here.

All right, people, let me tell you what this is about. Let me tell you about Amy. We are talking about how to Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving. Even that title is so, so clever and insightful. I can tell you're a New York Times bestselling author. So. Amy E. Herman is the president and founder of the Art of Perception and the author of Fixed how to Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving. She is a recovering lawyer, which I'm going to have to ask what, I'm guessing what that means, but I'll have to ask. Recovering Lauren, art lawyer and art historian who combine the practical aspects of each of those disciplines, legal analysis and visual analysis, to create her company, the Art of perception, over 20 years ago. She has trained individuals in all branches of the military. I'm interested in how that kind of came about. The FBI, the New York Police Department, officials at NATO and Fortune 500 companies to look at works of art to to be better observers, communicators and problem Solvers. And you have two books and another one coming out, just so you all know, Visual Intelligence, which was a New York Times bestseller. The latest book, fixed that. We talked about how to perfect the fine art of problem solving. That came out in late 2021. And your upcoming book, Smart, a young adult book, use your eyes to boost your brain, Simon Schuster. All right, I've got questions, Amy, you ready for them?

I am. I certainly am.

All right, first, I want to tell you all I send to my guests this prep sheet, and they provide some wonderful information. And you had three interesting key bullets that I want to start with that you really wanted listeners to take away. The first one, grab me. Number one, you can learn to be the person on whom nothing is lost. You know, as a former therapist and then former corporate VP and now in coaching, I want to be the person on whom nothing is lost. You know, trying to read everything we can, energy, facial expressions, all of it. But I can't wait to hear what you mean by that. The second is learning to analyze works of art can improve observation, perception, communication skills and facilitate better problem solving. And I'm guessing there's some skeptics to that, people who've never seen art. I'm wondering what you do with them, what you're going to tell us. And then finally, don't let perfection be the enemy of good. All right, let's. Oh, there we go. Let's start. Tell us first, how does learning to look at works of art help with all of these things, with problem solving? Break it down for us, Amy, will you?

I certainly will. I certainly will. Thank you for that lovely introduction. I do like to think that because I'm a recovering lawyer and I have the training as a lawyer, I was a corporate litigator for five years. But I also know the power of art. And I had my own aha moment studying art undergraduate in my undergraduate studies. And I knew that it moved me and I loved it. But I also recognize that the whole world is not moved by art the same way that I am.

But.

But knowing what we don't wanna do is as important as knowing what we do wanna do. And I knew that I did not wanna practice law for the rest of my life, and I couldn't waste the training. So I said, let's find a way to incorporate my love of looking at art and the power of art with legal analysis to help people do their jobs more effectively. And I know people think looking at art and being a homicide investigator, how could they possibly intersect? But I created a company where they intersect. The bottom line is I take people to the exit ramp of their comfort zone and I say, you know what? You may not look at art, you may not even like art, but I'm going to open your eyes when you didn't even know they were closed. I'm going to show you how to look at works of art, not if you like it or you don't like it. I'm going to ask you to tell me what you see. And in the process of doing that, you're going to realize that at work, when you're always connecting point A to point B, and we never deviate from that. And when we look at works of art, we think about new ways to see and new ways to communicate and new ways to solve our problems. And it's not about increasing your love of art. I'm not teaching you Monet versus Manet. I'm teaching you how to look. I'm teaching you how to see, and most importantly, how to communicate what it is that you see. And I've been doing this for so many years with Navy SEALs and officials from NATO and homicide investigators, and for some reason, I still don't know why it seems to be working.

Oh, my gosh. All right, I need to understand this a little more. Can I. So I studied a little art history. You know, as you know what even that means. You know what the architecture forms and you know, how we portrayed faces and bodies and etc. Tell me what you. If. If I were walking through a museum. Well, here, let me start with this. Do you think that this works really well? Because. And I'm making an assumption here. Slap me if it's wrong. But Navy SEALs or homicide investigators, perhaps, for many of them, they've never had art training. So what you're doing with them is scary and unknown. Is that part of why it's so effective?

I think that's a big part of why it is effective. But also I'm calling on a skill that all of us have. We all see something. So when I take a group into an art museum and I say, look at this painting. Tell me what you see. No one can cross their arms and say nothing or, I don't know. Nobody can say that. And there are no judgments. I start everyone at ground zero because, yes, my assumption is that the group that I'm working with has no knowledge of art history. And the truth is, you don't need any of it. You don't need any of it. And I'll give you this wonderful example that I love this example. There's a painting. I worked at the Frick Collection in New York City for 12 years. I was the head of education at the Frick collection for 12 years.

After being a lawyer.

After being a lawyer.

Yes, my goodness.

I left a huge part of my heart at the Frick Collection. And I had two police officers in front of a painting at the Frick Collection. And it was a painting by El Greco of Jesus chasing the money changers out of the temple. And I said to a police officer, look at this painting for 10 seconds, maybe 15. Tell me what you see and if you were in the scene, what would you do? And the police officer points to the Christ figure, not knowing it was the Christ fixed figure, and said, I'd collar him. He's causing all the trouble. Arrest that man. So he was able to put his own work into a painting from the 17th century. Not worrying about the fact that it's Christ, not worrying about the fact that it's El Greco. And he said, if I were there and this is what I would do. And it made me see that this painting was so powerful, it brought this police officer in. He didn't need to know anything about it. He told me what he saw and he told me what he would do. And I said, who would you talk to as a witness? And he pointed to a woman and he said, and I get rid of them and I go into that corner. And he just made the painting into a crime scene. And it made me realize that we bring what we do in our jobs to everything that we see. And so I make sure that I pick works of art that people will gravitate to. That there's a lot to discuss. And sometimes I don't even mention the artist's name. But I leave them with a sense of empowerment that yes, they can talk about what they see and that what they see matters.

So you know what I'm feeling the deep urge to do, but maybe you don't want to. I am having the urge for you to hold up a picture of a painting and that you say to me, what do I see? And I'll tell you one thing I see, and then you can tell me how that helps me problem solve. Can we do it?

It's a very interesting idea. I can do it. In fact, what I can do is, can I share my screen with you and I can show you a work of art. Would that work?

Should we do that?

Can we do that?

Let's see. Yeah, if you make. Hang on. Yeah, we'll make you the host.

Perfect. So, okay, once you make me the host, I think you can click on the little dots next to my name.

That's right.

Now I'm the host. Okay, you ready?

And you can share now. Right.

Do this. Okay. Now hold on. I'm going to pull up a work of art and you're going to tell me what you see. Great. And.

And the whole point is. I understand. Exactly. The policeman put himself. He saw so much from his lens of experience.

That's right.

Now I want you to take me to. Here's what I see. Now, how can that help me problem solve?

All right. I'm going to show you how fast.

Ah. Okay.

Now I'm going to show you a work of art.

Okay.

This one. Okay. Here it is. I'm going to show you this work of art.

Okay.

Now I'm going to test your visual description skills for everyone who's listening. And I want drive. This work of art. Describe it. Just describe what you're seeing. Don't worry about any art terms. Tell me what you see here.

I'm seeing.

Here's a spoiler alert. Kathleen. It's the COVID of my book. Okay. Oh, okay. On the COVID of my book. And so there's a reason I'm showing it to you. Go ahead.

Oh, I can't wait to hear what. So I'm seeing. Now I can. Can I. Should I share it conceptually or literally? What am I seeing?

Literally?

I see a beautiful silhouette, the side of a face.

Is it a woman's face? Man.

A woman's face.

Okay.

And I'm. You know, this might be a bias, but it seems to me an African American woman, black.

Okay.

I'm seeing these shapes that could come together and be her hair. It also could be her mind and her brain as. As pieces that come together.

What are the pieces? What are they? What do they look like?

I see circles, half circle, triangles. Kind of building. Building blocks.

Building blocks, Good.

But I see bunch of building blocks.

And a woman's silhouette.

Right. That's what I see.

Terrific. Okay, so I'm going to tell you that this is a work of art by an artist named Kumi Yamashita. And the reason I love this work of art, you did a great job describing it. It is what appears to be randomly placed building blocks, triangles, squares. They look like bridges and logs, and they seem to be chaotically arranged. And all of a sudden, on the beautiful. On the left side, you said there's a beautiful silhouette of what appears to be an African American woman. Just the Profile of her face. Now, what this work of art is, is the artist using what I call visual intelligence. She thought about the blocks in this picture not just as blocks. Triangles, circles, and squares. She thought about what kind of shadows they would cast collectively. What she did is she put them on the wall, and she put a single light next to them, and the shadows together make that silhouette. You see that?

I see it.

What she did is she did what I call visual intelligence, seeing what other people don't. She thought about the blocks not just as blocks, but as things that cast shadows together and. And make a beautiful silhouette. And so what I do is this is a perfect illustration of what happened to me during the pandemic. I was in lockdown, like everyone else was, and every morning I'd wake up, my life was these blocks, these randomly arranged blocks. And every day, I had to pull it together. I had to open my eyes and say, okay, what day is it? And for my clients, my stakeholders, my relationships, my families, I had to pull those blocks together every day to make a beautiful silhouette. And so this is illustrative of what I do with my clients. I show them a work of art, something they've never seen before. Tell me what you see, and I pull it together in a way that they can take back to their work with them, and it can help them do their job more effectively. Understanding that what we see, it has many, many different ways of looking at it.

So help me understand this, would you, in how you teach problem solving vis a vis this, Would you ask me or the people you're working with to think of a problem and then connect it for me a little more about problem solving, if you would? Absolutely. Should I think of a particular problem I have, and then what would you do with them then?

Well, the way the book is broken down, the book is broken down into three sections. It follows the artist's process as a template. Here I can stop sharing that.

Yeah, great.

Follows the artist process as a template for solving problems. So the reason I wrote the book is because somebody in the publishing industry came to me and said, why are all these people coming to you, Amy? You know, I know you're showing them how to look at works of art, but why are they coming to you? And I said, let me think about that for a day. And I came back and I said, the real. The reason all these groups, shock and trauma nurses and the military and social workers and police officers, it's because everyone has a problem to solve, and I wanted to help them solve their problems. So I Break the book down into the process. How does an artist create a work of art? Three sections, Prep, draft and exhibit. How do you prepare the problem? You define the problem. You give yourself parameters, you give yourself deadlines, you do drafts of the problem, you talk to other people, you investigate solutions. And finally, you exhibit the work of art. You bring your solution to the foreign. And so I take the reader through the whole journey and we follow the course of one big painting. How we go from inspiration to exhibition and how we can use that model to solve our own problems. And in the chapters of the book, I work with the NBA, I work with the FBI, I work with Navy SEALs. I take all of their problems, show them works of art as the template, and help them to craft better solutions.

So I am. So I want to take your course. Can you give us an example of a problem that was solved in a different way because of that? You know, thank you. That would be helpful to me.

The problem initiated with nurses. Now when we think about nurses, we think about compassionate, empathetic caregivers in a hospital. But many people don't know that nurses have an issue. It's a dark secret. It's called lateral violence. And with lateral violence, it is specific to the nursing profession. And it means that senior nurses often eat their young. Young nurses come in and they have digital training and they have sophisticated electronic training. And senior nurses know a good infection by smell when they walk into a room and they come to heads. And the older nurses bully the young nurses. And it's called lateral violence. It's a lateral violence. It's a real problem. And when I train nurses, which I do all the time, the nursing officer will say, do you have any experience working in lateral violence? And I said, yes, I do. And what I do is I show the young nurses and the senior nurses portraits, photographic portraits of people. There's a wonderful series of photographs of four sisters taken over 20 years. And I remind them that yes, we are nurses, but before we are nurses, we are all people. Young nurses are afraid of the senior nurses and believe it or not, the senior nurses are afraid of the young nurses. They're afraid they're going to be obsolete. And by showing them works of art, art together and separately, I bring them together on common ground. There's nothing threatening about looking at works of art together. I've had tears in my classes because tears come out and I bring works of art. How can we solve the problem of bringing nurses together and getting rid of lateral violence? Because it's not patient centered care. We need to get past the idea of lateral violence and microaggression in the hospital setting. And so nurses bring me in, and we look at art together. And it's about dispelling fear and opening the channels of communication. That's how we solve problems.

So wait, let me understand. So is it in the act of looking at art together, not necessarily analyzing the art and sharing what they think about it? It's just being together. I got it wrong. It's both. It's both.

No, you have it right. But the art that I have chosen. I'll give you an example. The art I choose to show nurses, a group of portraits by an artist named Nicholas Nixon. He took a picture of his wife and her three sisters every year from 1976 to 2017. It's a beautiful group of portraits. And when I show them those specific portraits to the nurses, they realize that not only are their patients more than just a set of symptoms and sickness, they. They are whole people. And I say to them, your patients are whole people. And then I turn the lens on them, and I say, you are whole people as well, with fears and insecurities and accomplishments. And we open the discussion based on what they see in the photographs. And then they turn the lens on themselves, and they realize. And it doesn't solve the problem in one session, but my sessions open the door to communication in a way that these professionals have not communicated before. And so I work with work those works of art, very specific to a particular group. So, yes, it is about looking at art together, but it's the art that I've chosen for specific discussions to happen in that room.

And is it also the fact that you're showing photographs or portraits of people as they've aged through life that is key? Is that a conscious thing or that they see like, I'm 28, she's 60. She scares the bajeebis out of me. Do they understand what the nail on the head.

Because when they say a picture is worth a thousand words, all you have to do is look at 10 of these photographs up on the screen, and you realize, that's me. That's me when I was 25. And that's me when I'm 55. And you see the whole range of light. I get chills when I tell you this, because these photographs are so affecting and they resonate with nurses, not only professionally. They see their patients as whole people. They see themselves as whole people. And so what I try to do is take that model and every group that I work with, they tell me what their issues are. They say, look, we're trying to accomplish this, we're trying to solve this. We have this. And I pick works of art, and I have a really intense session with them. And my goal for every single session is that people not only to become the person on whom nothing is lost, because I want these nurses to go out newly empowered to think nothing's going to be lost on me, but I also want them to change one aspect of how they do their jobs. And that is my goal.

What is that aspect?

I don't know what that. For each person, it's different. And at the end, we debrief and I say, what do you take? What do you take? And it is phenomenal how each person takes something different from whether it's homicide investigators or shock and trauma nurses or librarians or NATO officials around the world, everybody takes something.

So tell me more about. I don't think I've ever been so fascinated. Well, that might. What?

Yes.

I'm not going to say that's an exaggeration, but one reason is I don't know anything about what you do. Usually my guests, I do. So I'm just going to fire questions.

Please do.

When you say nothing is lost, what does that mean to you?

I stole a quote from Henry James. I have to give.

Henry James sounded very familiar.

Yes, it's a Henry James quote. And you think about what those words mean. Try to be the person on whom nothing is lost. When we live our lives, we do the same thing every day, but no two days are ever the same. What happens is we become used to going from point A to point B, point A, and then back from point B to point A. And what I ask my participants to do is every single day, I want you to notice something you didn't notice the day before, whether it's in the grocery store or on the street or in the elevator in your building. I want you to make note of one thing. And whether you write it down or put it on your phone, make note. Because you are training your brain. You're engaging in neuroplasticity, so your brain will then automatically start to notice more. And I don't mean this, just professionally notice things. Your children, your friends. And it helps you engage in the world in a more meaningful way. And yes, you can become the person on whom nothing is lost, because you're looking in a hundred different directions in a meaningful way. And I believe that looking at art gives us the tools to be able to do it. It's new, it's Fresh. And the bottom line is, everybody sees something.

It's so fantastic. I was asking everyone, I'm a singer, as I've mentioned on the side, and I said to Amy before, do you think this applies to music and other forms of art? And the answer was yes, but you're even making me think. I mentioned that the other day, I was driving home at night and I heard a song I'd never heard before, Edward Elgar's Lux Aeterna. And it was so moving, and I cried. I couldn't drive. I pulled over, but they didn't announce what the song was. So I came home and I found it. But it's occurring to me. I did something that sounds similar to this process. I watched the first YouTube performance of it that I could find. But there's 50. And I watched. I didn't watch 50. I watched 15 or 10. And I began to notice something different in each one of those.

How?

Oh, the strings sound different, or this is acapella, or, oh, they're standing this way, or they're in a church. I. And it just felt like my whole mind was a sponge. And I noticed things I've never noticed.

Exactly right.

But wildly. I was listening to the same piece, just different variations of was. I was exhausted. I had to lay down at it.

But you're. You're engaging your brain in something. And I tell people that when you look at works of art, you are engaging your brain in a way that doesn't respond to any other stimuli quite that way. And music does that, and dance does that, and art does it. I have had a work of art stop me dead in my tracks the way this music piece did for you. And my goal is I realize that work of art isn't going to stop other people dead in their tracks, but I want to channel that power and bring it to people to help them to do their work in a more meaningful way. And art engages our brain in that kind of neuroplasticity. And because homicide investigators don't look at art for a living, I get that my Navy seals don't look at art for a living. I am engaging their brain in a way that. That they don't engage it in other ways. And then I hold their hand and connect the dots back to the work that they do. And I say, go out there. Go back out there with a whole new set of eyes. And what do I tell people? I'm going to open your eyes, and you didn't even know they were closed.

It's incredible. I love it. Do they come to your course knowing the problem they want to work on, or is it vaguer than that? Like they don't have to have a specific problem?

I think it's both, Kathy. Sometimes they will come to me and say, I've heard your session really opens people's eyes. We're having this issue of microaggression, or we're merging with another company and communication has really stalled. Sometimes they'll come with a specific problem, and sometimes they'll say, we just need you. We just need a session to be together and look at things differently. And I'm okay either way. And I will tell you this. I did a ted talk in 2018. Like a real TED talk. How many minutes?

12.

12 minutes. It's called a lesson on looking. And I had a guest on the TED stage. There were about 2,000 people in the audience, and it went worldwide. And I'll never forget, they really prep you for a TED Talk. And there I was, ready to go on stage, and the TED person put his hands on my shoulders and he whispered in my ear, go tell the world why your work matters. And he just pushed me on stage. And I thought, oh, my gosh, here's my chance. I have 12 minutes. And I had to summarize it. I had to say why it matters, why looking at art matters, and how it can change how you see your whole world. And so the TED Talk has gotten, I don't know, 850,000 views. It's the kind of thing that I'm thrilled when I can open people's eyes. It never gets old for me to see somebody respond to this.

Oh, beautiful. Of course we're going to link to that. I've got to keep you a few more minutes. You okay with that?

I'm fine.

Here's a question.

Sure.

It'S similar to one that you wrote in your prep form, but here's what I want to ask you. So I'm a coach, and a lot of it feels therapeutic in that we're doing a deep dive, we're not staying up here at all. And every once in a while, I will work with someone who, you know, in the therapeutic term would be very blocked. And usually it's extremely blocked around. You know, people come to me to better their careers and leadership, but they're either desperately afraid to fail, they're doing high level work that they can't stand, that has no meaning, no purpose, but they're so afraid and so confused. And for some people, it's a very delicate process of unblocking Right. But I can see it. You know, I have my own language and coaching the way you would have your own language about art. I'm. I'm interested in, you know, your. Your question here is, how do you deal with skeptics who don't believe that looking at art is going to help them? But have you, or do you commonly see people that are so blocked in the way they think, or maybe even so scared, like, you gave me the exercise, and you made it very easy. How was I going to blow it? What did you see? But I know people get scared to even answer that question. Have you ever seen someone so blocked that it's difficult for them to even do these exercises and think differently?

It's a very good question. And here's the good news. What I'm asking people to do, what I do is not rocket science, okay? I'm the first to say that it's so simple in concept that I can dismantle those fears. Because I say to them, I'm not asking anything of you other than to tell me what you're looking at. And I say to them, take the emotion out of it. Don't tell me if you like it or you don't like it. I'm not interested in your knowledge. I'm interested in what you see. And once we lay the foundation that there's not going to be any judgment on what they see, then I can point out what they didn't see, or I can point out that they saw something that I didn't. And I introduced the concept of something that I know all too well. The concept is called failing forward. And that sometimes we can do something wrong, we can make mistakes, and it still propels us forward. There's a beautiful Japanese art form called kintsugi. And what kintsugi is, is when Japanese artists and ceramicists, they make their bowls and their vases, inevitably some of them come out cracked or asymmetrical or imperfect or even outright broken. Instead of throwing that flawed pottery away, they gather the pieces and they fill them in with gold and silver and platinum lacquer. And you know what happens to those objects? They become more precious and more valuable than had they been purged perfect in the first place. And I tell people that even if we fail, let's fail forward. Yes, I made mistakes. Let's honor the struggle. Let's bring it into the solution and say, sure, I make these mistakes, but look how I fix them. And look how beautiful it is. Hence the name of my book, Fixed how to Perfect the Fine art of problem solving. Don't sweep it under the rug and move on. Let's make our mistakes part of our process of learning. Honor that struggle and. And teach other people to look at our mistakes and say, well, perfection is not going to be the enemy of their good. They're going to just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

How fantastic. All right, leave us with one thing that you are. Pretty sure most of us don't know about how we're looking at the problem that we have. Leave us with one strategy, one thing that you've seen after doing all these classes, courses.

Absolutely. At the risk of repeating something that I just said, I'm going to say it again. And. And this goes out to people who work. This goes out to people who stay home, who raise children, who run congress, whoever they are. Sometimes we have to make decisions in life and don't let perfection be the enemy of good times. Good has to be good enough, and it is. Sometimes you need to stop the bleeding and put a band aid on and say, good will have to suffice. And in no way am I advocating not aspiring to perfection, because we all want to be perfect, but there are times in our lives we cannot be perfect, and that is okay. And we have to accept it and say, good is going to be good enough in this case. And now I'm going to put that. I'm going to stop the bleeding. I'm going to put a band aid on now. I'm going to devote my resources to something where I can do even better. But don't be afraid to. To say that good is good enough sometimes. And don't let perfection be the enemy of good. Sometimes we just have to let things go and move on and think about Kintsugi and think about honoring our struggles and honoring our mistakes. And this is how I use the beauty of art to help people see that and bring it into their lives.

So fantastic. Amy, I want to just amplify. I coined a term, perfectionistic over functioning. I have a feeling your. My work would just dovetail so well, but it's doing more than is healthy, appropriate, and necessary and trying to get an A in all of it, which is really the death of joy and the death of peace and the death of progress. So I'm all there with you. Where do we. I'm dying. One more question, then. Yes. Where do we learn about you? But how do other people learn about your courses? How do. How do the Navy seals and the FBI, how do they learn word of.

Mouth or it is all word of mouth. In 20 years of doing this, I've never had to market. Exceedingly fortunate that my course spreads by word of mouth and my books are out there. I am filled with gratitude that I can work with all these different people. Today was crisis managers. Yesterday was the FBI. Tomorrow is corporate volunteers. Friday it's hospice workers. And I am exceedingly grateful that I can bring the opportunity to all these people. And if anybody wants to learn about my work or read more about what I do, they can website, which is artfulperception.com and my TED talk is@ted.com. it's called a lesson on looking. And that's where you can read about what I do and see videos of what I do. There's big video I did at Google. There's a whole presentation at Google. Look at you rocking it.

And I want to say one more thing. Giving you a hug. You could have stayed as a lawyer and what would the world have missed?

Thank you. That's very kind of you to say. But I will tell you this. I wanted to be happy. And I love what I do so much.

I can see it.

Knowing what I didn't want to do was as important as what I do want to do. And I am forever grateful that I have forged this career and I can help other people see, hopefully with more meaning.

How beautiful. Thank you so much. All right, everyone, I hope you're inspired. Check out everything Amy's got. All the links will be below. I think there's also a lesson here that we can take everything that we love and we can meld it into a work of art. As a career, it takes courage. It takes not being a perfectionistic over functioner, but it also takes understanding that what you're gifted at is a gift to the world. And I think you're just a perfect demonstration of that, Amy.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you. Come back again.

Thank you.

Thank you. So fun. All right, everybody, you know that wherever you see this, we want to hear from you. What did you get from it? Questions you have. We'd both love to answer whatever we can. And I hope you found this inspiring like I did. I can't wait to look at some art.

I'm gonna go to moma soon.

All right, everyone, have a wonderful week and we will see you next time. Thanks so much for joining us today. And please don't forget to check out findingbrave. Org for more programs, resources and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of finding brave.