245: How to Eliminate Gender Bias in Employment Practices with Jean Back

Unconscious bias that starts at the hiring stage and the performance review stage that can ultimately affect the layoff process because it can affect that person's progression as an employee that then when you're looking at the decision of who you're going to lay off, maybe they haven't had the same opportunities as other employees.

Hello everyone, this is Kathy Caprino and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created this show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week, I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of Finding Brave and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful and meaningful life, business and career. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. Kathy Caprino Here I am. So you hear this every time. I know, but I mean it every time. Excited to have our guest Jean back here with us because Jean is an expert in an area that we all need to understand more of. And I think we, in our regular kind of normal life and going through our jobs and our roles, I think we don't understand this information as much as we absolutely need to, Jean. So thank you for taking the time to be for being with us. I'm so, so grateful and I know everyone's going to be enthralled by what you have to say. Thank you.

Oh, you're welcome. I'm so happy to be here.

Oh, great. All right, folks, we are talking about how to eliminate gender bias in employment practices. I mean really, this is a year long course we need to have with you, but we'll, we'll, we'll take 40 minutes. So thank you. So I want you to understand a little of Jean's bio and what she's bringing here, which is so much experience and understanding and insight. Jean is an employment attorney with Schwabi, Williamson and Wyatt. Gene brings more than 25 years of experience helping employers solve problems to complic scenarios with broad expertise in litigation, mediation and settlement settlement of employment and business torque claims. Jean is skilled in training managers and employees in employment compliance and is experienced in all areas of state and federal employment, wage and hour discrimination and leave laws. So here we go. Let's just, let's just dive in. Something that really jumped off the page for me, Jean. We all my podcast guests fill out a prep form and in it it says come up with some three takeaways you want listeners to understand. And I just want to read what these are to, to everyone because this is what we're going to be covering. Number one, we all have some form of unconscious bias, but recognizing it is key and I would say even addressing it is key as well. Number two, cultivating a bias free culture takes work and starts at the top. And number three, continuing continually improving your DEI practices is essential. And you do that by reading, listening and learning. So important. So let's start at the top here. What does gender bias look like in the layoff and or hiring process? Jean, what do we need to know right now?

Well, first of all, you need to know that there's kind of two different kinds of bias. There's overt bias, right. Which doesn't hopefully happen that much, but you know, could. And that's where somebody just overtly has a preference for one gender over another. Maybe they feel like only one gender can perform this job well, or they feel like, you know, they have a gender bias in favor of males. It's usually that way, unfortunately. And against females because they feel like, oh, females have children, they bear children, they're going to have to take time off to have children or they're normally the caregivers in a family. So they're going to take all of this time off. And I don't want to have somebody in this position that's going to be off all the time. So that's the kind of overt bias that you might see.

Or even physically weaker, right? Physically. You mentioned that. Yeah, our Forbes interview. Yeah.

Yes. I mean, that can also be. Which, you know, I mean, I think that like in some positions I want to just throw out firefighting, you know, as an example. I think early on, you know, that was a challenge for women to be able to perform that job. But now, I mean, you do have to be able to prove that you can do the physical things in the job. But many women can, so there's no reason a woman can't do that. The other kind of bias that happens is what you mentioned at the top of the hour. That's unconscious bias and that's a bias that, you know, people don't intend to have. Unconscious bias. We don't want to, we don't know that we have it. Some people, and so they just, it's, it's something that's in the back of their brain. And especially when they're stressed or they're making decisions, you know, on a quick basis, they're this part of their brain takes over, that makes decisions that, you know, that part of the brain, it was very useful at one time, but maybe not anymore. Right. And you don't always your, your, that part of your brain doesn't necessarily make ethical decisions. So that's why you really need to understand, like, if you have unconscious bias, own it, like, recognize it. Everybody has it. So you know what I mean? It's not, you can't, you shouldn't be embarrassed about it because it's not something that you wanted to happen or intended to happen. It's. It's something that occurred by the things that you saw, you heard, you, you know, you observed as you're growing up. And your brain becomes wired to think that those things, you know, those certain biases are what needs to happen. And I'm talking about, for instance, as you're going to school, maybe all teachers are women. You know, when you were young, there weren't very many male teachers in like an elementary school. So you see teachers in certain type or women in certain types of jobs, and then you, you know, that's your bias. Right. And it just comes in. So anyway, there's conscious and unconscious bias. And in the hiring process that comes into play well overtly, but also the unconscious bias kicks in because then it can be the applicant or the job description that's being put out there. So if a job description is put out for a job and it's, it defines a job that is. Needs a lot of strength or needs certain attributes that may be traditionally defined as male attributes, well, then maybe certain applicants that are looking at that job who also have unconscious bias. Right, right. Are saying, I can't perform that job. I'm not even going to apply for it because I can't perform it. They're not letting their conscious brain look at and say, I can perform that job. I can do those things. They're, you know, they're just letting what they've been wired to think. So so that happens. And then from the, the interviewer standpoint, there can also be unconscious bias. And that's why we really strive and advise companies not to just have unstructured interviews. Not, you know, if you're interviewing somebody and you're sitting down and you're talking to them and you're having a nice conversation, you see that they like the same things that you like, they have the same interests that you have, but the next person doesn't have the same interest have. You're going to more, you're going to be more likely to want to work with the person that has the same interests. Right. Whether it's male or female or racially or whatever. Whereas if you have an interview process that's more structured, where you're asking the same questions of every applicant and you have an interview panel that's diverse. Right. Then you can really compare apples to apples instead of having these unconscious biases come in. So in the interview panel, in the job descriptions, it can all, you know, all of that can affect the hiring process.

Can I stop you here and ask a few. That was a lot. That was, you know, that was a lecture at a university right there. I mean, the content. All right. A few things I want to say. When I was a therapist and even in, in doing a lot of research for my Forbes blog, stuff, etc, I want to say one thing and hear your thoughts when you say we all have unconscious bias. So my understanding is that we don't mean that, that we're all walking around trying, trying to be prejudicial. We mean that the way the brain works is to, to formulate these biases that were set up to protect us.

Exactly.

That looks like a tiger.

Yes.

And anything that looks like a tiger is going to kill me. I mean, that's right. The brain is constantly looking for threat, for differences. Right. We still have a rep.

Things that are going to help us.

Right.

Like, you know, back, back in the day, you were attracted to somebody because they were strong or they were, you know, they had certain attributes.

Right.

That as a mate, attracted you to them back. You know what I mean? Back in the, you know.

Well, whenever. Have research that certain female body types actually from millions of years represent being able to bear children.

Sure.

You know, wider hips. So unconsciously people are attracted to certain body types, certain facial types that, that, you know, whatever. Okay. So we're talking about the way the brain works to basically hijack intellectual, analytical thought and go right to this person feels safe. I'm like, this person. Okay, so that's what we're talking about. Yes, but the problem is anything that's unconscious is out of your consciousness. That's why it's called unconscious.

It is, but it doesn't mean you can't work on it.

Right. So when you said the very first thing is when it's unconscious, you need to make it conscious. I have, you know, as a former therapist and a coach, tips for how to do that. But I'd love your legal perspective because they're embedded deeply and we're talking about gender here, but everything we're talking about applies to race and other. Other groups of people. How do you help you advise HR people? How do you strategically help people become aware of their biases? Like, really, if they're deeply embedded and we don't have any idea, what are some strategies you give your clients about? Well, let's just start with what are your biases? Are people able to talk about that?

Well, hopefully they can become able to talk about it. Some people will never recognize it and won't talk about it.

That's right.

But the first thing you have to do is to get really good training in. I'm not an expert on providing unconscious bias training, but I've been through it and going through it, I was able to really recognize, oh, yeah, I, I've seen that happen. You know, I've seen that in myself and I've seen that in other people before. And you recognize, like, what's a microaggression? And, you know, I mean, I'd never heard of those things, honestly, before I took the training. And that's because I didn't live up, I didn't grow up in a world where I was constantly having microaggressions happen to me.

But now can you define microaggressions? We hear the term, but I bet a lot of people don't know what it means.

Well, I mean, I'm not. I don't know if I'm going to be able to give a great definition of it, but a microaggression is something that happens every day in certain racially to people of, you know, in various ethnic and racial groups and also women. And it's where somebody says something like a microaggression might be. You know, I think that we saw a video on the training where this woman, Asian woman, and a Caucasian man were jogging and the. They stopped and we're talking to each other and the Caucasian man says, where are your people from? United States. You know what I mean? Like, I grew up here. I was born here. I mean, that's a microaggression. And, and there's other, you know, millions of others, millions of examples of microaggressions. But in terms of helping people understand unconscious bias, I think the first thing is invest in good training. And then the second thing is once you have good training, be open minded. You know, try to be open minded and really evaluate how you think and, you know, catch yourself when you're making decisions. You can, if you work at it, and then really own, like, say, okay, I grew up and these were the things I was taught when I grew up. And so I can see how those things sort of are kind of filtering into how I think. Right. And, and so once you own it, then when you're making decisions, you can think ahead. So you're not in that stressful mode where all of a sudden your unconscious brain is, is taking over the conscious brain because you need to make a decision really quickly. Right. If you think ahead, you can, you can use your conscious brain to make the decisions and then question yourself. You know, when you're making decision, is this decision, am I using my conscious brain to make this decision or is this decision, you know, being influenced by my unconscious brain?

You know, I, I have to say, while you're talking, I, I'm thinking for a second about, I had dinner with a dear friend, Aideen Bur, who is dedicated to advancing the rights of indigenous people under, you know, and atrocity prevention, important work. And we were talking about all the ways, let's say Native Americans are discriminated against. And why I bring it up is our conversation should showed me so many layers of. And, and I revere Native Americans and indigenous people generally. And yet here we are with a motif of, you know, the warrior, my mascot in my high school, my kids high school Wilton warriors. And what that was, you know, a chieftain in a headdress. And, and how all of these are discriminatory. And why I bring it up is, as you pointed out, when we're talking about being biased, we don't mean that you approach life to be hurtful to other people.

Of course not.

It means how we're raised has programmed us.

Right.

And if you don't question that programming. And part of that I would add to what you're saying is asking people, asking people who are in that group, you know, asking a woman, how does it feel when I say this?

Except for there are some people that feel like they don't need to teach you. You know, I've heard that, you know, I don't need to. I don't, I don't need.

It's your problem. Fix it.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, no, that's the, that's the thing. And so I think, but I think you have to recognize and respect that too. It's not a, may be a valid thing.

And so it's not their job, certainly.

Exactly. It's not my job to teach you this. You need to go out and learn this yourself. There's lots of good books, lots of good articles, you know, but you need to make this a priority. I, as a, as a woman, as A person of color. I'm not color, but obviously that's. If I were, you know, that, you know, I don't. It's not my job to go out there and teach Caucasian people.

I so get it. I still get it. However, if the opportunity comes to me, I'm gonna do it because I live this. I and I. In other words, if someone said to me, kathy, I know you were sexually harassed, what did, what did that do? What did that feel like? I want to teach you because what you hear from me is going to be different from what a book says.

Sure.

So I hope that I understand. I do. Again, I don't want to have unconscious bias about this.

Yeah.

But if you have a chance to teach, I hope you will. That's what I would say to people.

Okay, Absolutely.

You know, embrace that. That's a gift. Okay, so I did want to say, because we talked about it in our Forbes interview, can you give some of the words that are used in job descriptions that unconsciously say, you know, more, indicate more men are going to apply to that kind of job? You gave some words.

I did some words like ambitious, you know, strong. You know, I mean, anything that, that maybe used to be sort of a male dominated word, whereas female words tend to be caregiving. So there's softer words.

Connection, communication, collaboration.

Yeah.

So does the research show that women themselves will not respond as favorably to that job description? If it's.

Yeah, it weeds women out, you know.

And so really, when we have those terms that are patriarchally.

Yeah.

You know, patriarchal society represent masculinity.

If, if you're, if you, if the woman has unconscious bias herself, which, which you do, you know, then it, then it could. And I mean, I, I don't want to hijack the, the conversation, but a really good thing to look at with respect to unconscious bias is the doll test. And I'm sure you heard of the doll test.

Tell us.

Well, it's not gender, it's racial. But back in the 50s. And I, I apologize because I don't know the names of the two that. Husband and wife. But doc, you know, doctors, African American, kind of. I think they were doctors. I don't know what their educational level was, but it was high. And they did this study in school. In school. And I, when I looked at. You can Google it. You can actually see the doll test.

We'll do it. We'll link to the show.

They went into schools and they took three dolls. You know, a darker doll, a lighter, you know, more maybe caramel colored doll. And a white doll. And they asked these children just questions like, which doll is bad? And these children would point to the doll with the darker skin. And I mean, so this was the doll test. And the idea was in these children had dark skin that were pointing to the dolls with the dark skin. And. And so it shows that. That this unconscious bias is. Happens at a very early age. And it was. It's just so sad, but it's very informative. And then they redid it again, just, I want to say, like, 15 years ago or even just 10 years ago. And the. This next group, of course, the first group was in the 50s. The next group was in, say, the early 2000s. And. And it was, you know, white people, kids of color, all sorts of different kids. And it's just amazing to hear the comments, you know, and what the kids say about whether the dolls. And. And in the later ones, some of the kids are like, I can't. I don't know why you're asking this. And one. One really scrappy little girl said, you know, and she was. She was a person of color. She's like, not. None of these dolls are bad. You know, and I like it. It was awesome. And then they did a focus group with the parents, and that was another, you know, the parents of the children who were making comments, and they were like, oh, my God, where did that come from? Like, a. A comment that a certain doll was bad because of the color of the doll's skin. Like, the parent would say, well, where did that come from? So it's just really interesting, and I would encourage any listeners who are interested in unconscious bias to go back and look at that study. It's not gender, it's race. I do. Wow.

And. And you know what you're bringing up very quickly? This is important, I think. When I was in elementary school, we had researchers, college researchers come and do a similar test, but it was showing pictures of different teenage girls. And the question, different column, different, you know, races. And the question was, who would you rather be have as your babysitter?

Yeah.

There was a black woman and white woman. And I want to tell you what happened. I said, I'm. I'm like 10.

Yeah.

I said, I. I don't understand. I don't. I don't see anything to judge that. I. I don't know how to answer your question.

Yeah.

And they pushed, and I said, I, I. It doesn't matter to me based on these images. And they pushed. And you know what the feeling was that I got? You should answer that you don't want the black person? Well, yeah, the researchers influenced it. So I said that I went home and told my mother and she was angry. So what I want to tell you is bias is baked in. And we know from science, researchers of any kind have bias, and that impacts scientific research. And I think that's why some people are skeptical. But, wow, this is how we get to the heart of it, right? Thank you for sharing. Now, can you talk about laying off and firing and what we all need to be aware of in that process, how to eliminate gender bias there?

Well, first of all, one thing that I kind of am speaking, I'm speaking to HR folks about these days is that really unconscious bias that starts at the hiring stage and the performance review stage, and that can ultimately affect the layoff process because from the start, it can affect that person's progression as an employee. That then when you're looking at the decision of who you're going to lay off, maybe they haven't had the same opportunities as other employees.

The entire trajectory is colored and shaped.

But that's one thing. And there's things that HR professionals can do to fix that in their organization. And there are some really good articles. The Harvard Law Review or Business Journal has some great articles on this. And I would highly encourage you to like, if you're interested in reading about this stuff, go, go there and, and look at, at the list of articles that they have and you'll, you'll see a lot of things that will help you.

We'll link to whatever we can find. Thank you.

Yeah, but the, in terms of the layoff process, if it's done well, then you shouldn't experience, you know, you really shouldn't experience bias and layoff process. But to do it well, you have to understand, you know, the process. And you have to start kind of at the very beginning with looking at your organization and deciding what does it look like now and what do I want it to look like? So what am. What's my goal here in this layoff? That's the very first thing. And is the layoff. Usually they're done for economic reasons. Right. You know, I need to cut this much, you know, and then, you know, in looking at it, you say, you know, well, what, is there something someplace I can cut back that is going to help me to do this? And so first you figure out, like, what. What is the decisional unit that is being affected or what is the job category that's being affected? For example, I have administrative assistants and they have, you know, a 2 to 1 ratio. In other words, they help two people, but they could really be helping three to four people. So I could cut back my administrative assistance and save money there. So you have to kind of figure out like, okay, what jobs are going to be cut and then you have to essentially assemble your team that's going to be handling the reduction in force. And that's one of the most important things that you do. Because the team needs to be a diverse group of people. It should be men, it should be women, it should be people of color, it should be, you know, people who have disabilities. As diverse as you can make it. Now, some corporations don't have diversity and.

They don't even have it in their base, you know, to pull it out to.

I can't have a diverse team. But if you can have a diverse team, you want to do that, you want that team to be trained on unconscious bias because you want them to understand where their unconscious bias is coming in to affect the people that are being chosen and, you know, bias and unconscious bias, quite frankly. And then you, you want to basically, as the, the first thing you want to do is choose the objective non discriminatory factors that are going, you're going to look at, to choose who you're laying off. That can be, if it's a family owned business, we're going to keep family members. Okay, well that's not discriminatory and it's objective. And why wouldn't you, right? If, you know, we want to keep people working here who have been here a long time, we want to reward, you know, loyalty and longevity. Okay, well that's not discriminatory either necessarily. We want, we, we want good performers and not bad performers. That's where the unconscious bias in the process can play. You know, can kind of have a factor, but generally that's considered a non discriminatory objective factor. Instead of when you put together these, you know, or you, you say, well, we're gonna, we're gonna lay off, we're gonna get rid of. Or you're gonna say temporary and part time people, we're gonna get rid of them. That's how we can save money. So anyway, you, you just get this list together and then you figure out, you know, where is the, where are the cuts gonna happen? Are we gonna cut from the organization as a whole? Are we going to just look at this one division over here? Are we going to look at this one product line? Did we just create a product? It's not doing well. So we're going to get rid of the product. In all likelihood, if you did that, the people that you hired recently to perform that product probably aren't. You're not going to need them anymore. Right. So you might. And that's not discriminatory. You're getting rid of the whole group. Not, you know, you're not going to choose male or female or people of color or not people of color, disabled or not disabled or people over 40 or not people over 40. So anyway, that's generally the process that you go through and there's more steps to it.

But questions, questions as you're talking. All I can think of now is there's bias everywhere along every decision point you just described. So for instance, we're going to keep the people that have been here the longest, well, maybe they're the people that look just like and act just like the owners. And there's bias all through that, right?

There could be, yeah.

Why I get a little rankled is people you've heard me say, and I've written about it in my book, I was laid off after 9 11among about a hundred people. But here's my question and I did go to a lawyer and it went very well for me. That's what I'll say to you. But one, one thing that I strongly believed, and this is not why it went well for me, there were other factors, but I was one of the highest paid vice presidents, as were all the other vice presidents that were laid off. That feels discriminatory to me. But I have to ask you, from your perspective, and I know you're not my lawyer and it was 20 years ago and who knows what the heck was going on. But if, if, if someone's looking, you're, you own a company and it's 500 people and there are these top five people that have been there two years that are making more than because you know, they were brought in at a high salary, is it discriminatory to say, yeah, we're going to cut, they're great, but they're making too much.

I don't necessarily necessarily think that's discriminatory, to be honest with you, because what's discriminatory is looking at similarly situated people, two people who maybe are in the same job category, earning the same amount and then laying one off because they're male, they're female, they're over 40, they're because of a protected characteristic, that's discriminatory. But if, if you're just laying somebody off because they earn more and you're now that can the way that discrimination can play into that is that, that the fact that that person is earning more may suggest they've been working for many, many years to get to that level.

Is older.

Exactly. So that can lead into age discrimination. But really it's a matter of looking at similarly situated people and, and determining whether they were treated the same or differently. And if they were treated differently, then why, you know, why were they treated differently is because one person performed better than the other. Is it because, you know, is it, or is it because of a, of a factor that you're not supposed to be considering? Right. Like. So I don't, Yeah. I don't necessarily find just terminating somebody because they're the highest wage earner in and of itself as discriminatory.

I see. Fascinating. What else do we need to understand? You know, you say any organization today needs to continually improve their dei, diversity, equity, inclusion practices. If you. I know, I'm aware of our time here. If you could say the one gap that you see most that is not being addressed, the one thing that, you know, I always find as a coach, if I keep saying the same thing over and over, if the same problem keeps coming to me, then I know we have a huge gap that, that we have to address for women, for whatever. Is there one particular thing that you keep saying, I can't believe I have to. There's yet another client that is doing this. Is there one big thing.

For dei? Well, I, okay, there are a couple of things and some of these are I, I basically have started training on these things because it's new. It's, it's a new phenomenon and it's coming, it's, it's starting to, it. And then that is that our, our young people coming out of high school, coming out of college, really look at gender differently than, than their parents, than, you know, other generations. Yeah. And, and I think it's really a hard thing for some people to accept maybe because of their religious background or because, you know what I mean, like it could.

So we're talking transgender or more fluid gender, binary or non conforming.

Exactly. So that's one thing that I think is going to continue to people, people are going to have to address it because it is a, it is a, a way, a different way of looking at gender that young people have, that older people don't have. As those young people come into the workforce, people are going to have to address it. It is going to be addressed. So that's one thing. Another thing is pay equity. Okay. So, you know, that's another area that. And these many states are beginning to address pay equity by enacting pay equity laws. State of Oregon, state of Washington, State of California, and I'm sure there's others, lots of other states. Those are mainly the states I, you know, function in.

And meaning that now we have to disclose now it has to be more open some of these laws, Correct?

Right. Well, different. Different states have different laws. Washington just enacted a law that said you have to actually post what the salary range is going to be for that job. Right. And the reason for that is if you don't do that and enables people to come in, negotiate for the, for the salary that they're get. And studies have shown that men are better advocates for themselves, and so they're more willing to negotiate for a higher rate at the beginning, which means they are always going to be paid more all the way through the process. Right, right. And so a pay equity analysis is an analysis that an organization does where they look at all of their job descriptions, they look at the, you know, similarly comparable work, work of a comparable character. You know, what is, what's the pay rate for that work and who's doing it? And are we paying people who are doing work of a comparable character the same amount of money? And if we're not, why not like it? And then you look at. Is the difference. Are there people who are performing work of a comparable character, who are men, who are women, who are racially.

Can we see categories emerge that.

Then you need to fix it. You need to bring the bottom. Not fix it by bringing the top people down, but fix it by bringing the bottom people up. So that's, you know, that's another area that I would say is an area that I think will. If companies do this, it is going to have a profound impact on their organization and make it feel just a more equal place to work.

Wonderful. All right. I'd love to ask you one more question. It's tough. I didn't prepare you, but let's just talk. I think you'll have amazing answers going back to the gender issue or any other issue that speaks to people's deep values, whether they're religious, political. I have a question.

All right.

I mean, I have younger kids, 28 and 25. They have taught me so much. And, and I completely see that their whole world around gender is so much more fluid, so much more open. And I'm a boomer, you know, and, and I want to. And yet I am coming up on my own. You know, I have to work on Myself a lot. But the goal is to be as compassionate and understanding and fluid and flexible as possible as well.

Or at least if you don't understand it, at least accepting their version of it.

Right, that's. So that's my, that's my question. Jean, let me ask. So you're a 60 year old per 58 year old person and you are hiring and you have a religious belief that you know, gender is gender and you're born with it. What is your advice as a legal advisor to a set of HR people that are your clients who say, look, I don't believe in this. What, what do you say? How do you.

Well, I'm not sure that somebody that, I mean, you can find an advisor that probably has similar, you know, similar thoughts that you do and will work to support those way of thinking. And there's, you know, the Supreme Court, you know, not too long ago saw a case like that dealing with a bakery, you know, and a gay couple went in the bakery and wanted the bakers to bake a cake for them and they said, no, we're not going to do that because we don't.

We want believe in that. I remember it. Big, big.

So, you know, I mean, it really depends. And obviously that bakery found attorneys to represent them in that case. Right. So.

So, you know, but let's say it's a huge organization. Google, Microsoft, Apple, IBM, where it's not a small, privately owned five person thing, it's a large organization. Pfizer. I mean, I'm just making up.

Yeah, yeah.

What then what. I'm really fascinated how, what advice would I give them if the HR person says, look, I know we're supposed to go in this direction, but personally I'm struggling, Struggling.

Oh, I would, I would say, well personally you can be sued and you can't. And so. Okay, you know, I mean you, that isn't your job to put your personal opinion about something, you know, here. What your job is to do is to think about the organization and the people in the organization and do your best to, you know, get that organization to where it needs to be. And any of those large companies are going, you know, they're looking at trying to be as diverse, you know, as diverse as they can. They want DEI efforts. That is good. That is, they need to, in order.

To be able to, you know, compete, sustain, thrive, grow.

There's people that won't work with them if they don't, you know, I mean, even to get contracts, they need to have DEI efforts. If it's not just for the fact that it's the right thing to do. Right.

But that's a quote we're going to make the beginning of this piece. I would say with no hesitation, it isn't your job to impose your values. If you can't do your job and you can't fulfill the legal requirements of being in HR and hiring without discrimination, you're in, you need to leave.

Right. You're in the wrong job.

You're in the wrong job.

Yeah. I mean it, you know, you can't, you have to. And it's again, it's all part of this process recognizing. Because the world's changing and fast. It's really hard for some people to change these deep seated belief systems. Do you know what I mean? But they don't have what I'm trying to say. You don't have to change what you believe would. You can be, you can remain true to yourself and your beliefs, but allow others to have their beliefs and not, you know, people.

Yeah, well, there's the problem.

Not impose your belief system on another person. And you don't want that person to impose their belief system on you.

Right.

So it's the same, you know, it's the same thing.

And I'd say, whether you agree with that or not, I mean, a lot of people, my values are right and I have the right to impose. I would say just leave your HR role. Do something else where you're not in control. Using your values as a weapon. I'm sorry, that's how I'm going to say it.

But some HR people may be instructed to do that again. Or you know, whether, if we're talking about smaller organizations, you know that, I mean, and if that's how that organization wants to operate, you know what I mean? Like that that's what they're gonna do. You know, I don't, I don't. I would be hard for me to, you know, understand that. But.

And that's where I'm guessing, you get to choose who your clients are that are moving in a beautiful direction where hopefully they'll.

My clients hire me in order to give them advice and they can take my advice or they can leave it. You know, they don't always have to take my advice. But. But most of my clients are. Want to do the right thing. They really do. They want to do the right thing and they want an organization that is fair and unbiased. And so, you know.

Yeah, that's a wonderful way to end this. Thank you, Jean. Where does everybody learn more about you? Where do we, where do we soak up your information, your insights? Where do we go? Where do we send people?

I guess you would go to our website, schwabi.com and they're my, my profiles there and everything that I write is going to be under my profile. But also there are many other really talented lawyers at Schwabi and, and we have a really great diverse practice area where we're separated into industry groups. So you said you had, have, you know, an affinity for a Native American and we have an Indian and Alaska Native corporation group and various groups. I happen to kind of live in the manufacturing and Indian and Alaska Native corporation and technology world. So anyway, it's just been a pleasure talking to you. I hope so, so much. I hope I said things that people will get something out of.

It's 100%. It's so thought provoking and it's such important work you're doing. Thank you for taking the time and thank you for the work you do. So appreciate it. All right, all right everyone. I hope this is, is inspiring. I hope you have questions. I say this every time, but if you don't have questions or if, if this doesn't spur you to think a little differently, we're not doing, I don't feel I'm doing my job here on finding braids. So ask a question wherever you see this. Of course LinkedIn is my big happy place. If you see it and you have a question, don't be afraid, ask. This is all about us stretching and growing to a new level, I think and that that brings up questions. So I hope you find this helpful. Thank you again everyone and we will see you in a few weeks. Thanks.

Bye bye.

Hi folks. Kathy here. I'm so excited to share that starting in February, I'm offering a new eight week live coaching and training course all around the content of my book, the Most Powerful youl. The course teaches both men and women how to recognize and close. What I've seen are the seven most damaging power and confidence gaps that keep us from having a happy and successful career. When you have these gaps, you simply cannot thrive in your work. And there's a lot of pain, conflict and challenge. The course offers eight weekly zoom coaching calls with me, eight video training modules, a step by step process for boosting your career confidence and impact. Fantastic additional resources from over 30 of the nation's top experts, a private online support community for members and more. To learn more and claim your spot, sign up for my newsletter@kathycaprino.com Signup and watch for the updates. People who have taken this training have called it transformational and life changing and I'm confident it will help you too. See you there. Thanks so much for joining us today. And please don't forget to check out findingbrave.org for more programs, resources and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of Finding Brave.