256: How Bringing Your Heart and Spirit Forward Transforms Lives with Robb Holman

The look on his face of what I'm about to describe to you. He said, rob, I don't have adequate words to describe what I'm seeing on the ultrasound screen. As I'm checking you out, all I can tell you is what you walked in with today. A clear mass in your abdomen you no longer have. Kathy, I said, ho, ho, hold on. I have pain and you're telling me I don't have anything.

Hello, everyone. This is Kathy Caprino, and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created this show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week, I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of Finding Brave and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful, and meaningful life, business, and career. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. I think this is reaching you. In early May. Oh, my gosh. I love spring and I love summer so much. And I love the fact that I can bring you and talk to our amazing guest today, Rob Holman. Rob, I'm so excited. We've had to postpone due to some of my challenges. I'm so excited to be with you. Thank you for making the time, Kathy.

Listen, you and I, whether we have an informal or formal time together, I'm gonna take what I can get with Cathy time and. And no, I've been thoroughly just enjoying our conversation that's been ongoing and I'm looking forward to seeing what pops here today.

I love it. Thank you, my dear. Thank you. Rob knows that I love to have these conversations as if my guest is over for dinner or a drink or a coffee. And I'm really asking what I want to understand. It's like a master's class in life, this podcast. So thank you for letting me go there. And we are talking about how bringing your heart and spirit forward transforms lives and transforms your leadership. And yes, we're talking about spirituality and leadership. Not often put together those terms. And we'll talk about why, but let me tell you all about Rob. Rob Holman. I'm gonna need my glasses. Rob Holman is known as an eternal optimist who's passionate about serving leaders through encouragement, inspiration, and authenticity. He is a sought after global keynote speaker and author of three transformational leadership books, Lead the Way all in and Move the Needle. I love all three of those. In 2023, Rob was named as one of the world's top three 30 leadership speakers. Yikes. And inducted into the Power list Of the top 200 biggest voices in leadership. Congratulations. His inside out leadership philosophy has been featured in publications such as Inc. Forbes and Fast Company. And a fun fact about you. I should always ask a guest for a fun fact. Rob used to be a professional basketball player. I've never seen you stand up, but how tall are you robbing?

Okay, it depends who you ask, Kathy, because I'm six four and a half. And you know, back in the day, college, and I did play seven years of professional basketball, you would always add an inch. I don't know why this happens, but.

You add an inch, you just say you lie, let's face it.

Yeah, you basically. And they just kind of, you find yourself in this place. And I said I was 6 5, so I'm 64 and a half. So depending on who I'm around and what the topic of conversation is about, I'm either going to say I'm 65 or 6 4. I round up around, down.

But if you're with me at 5:3, you're going to say, you know, I'm, I'm kind of close to six feet. You're not going to intimidate me with your right.

Not at all.

Well, that is amazing. All right folks, where I want to begin. And you know, I love to share how I learn of my guests. Sometimes it's through an amazing PR firm that's telling me about their best selling book. But this is really important. I want to share that. Rob reached out on LinkedIn and I looked back today and it was 2018 and you reached out in the kindest way, as you always do. It was a little bit of a touch base and we were laughing earlier. You know, sometimes I'm in the throes of I can't talk to anybody, I'm too busy writing. It's been good grief. So I said something and then you reached back. It was January of 20th. Was it January 2022 or even 2020? And again you were so kind and nothing pushy and nothing. But this time I had the presence of mind to say, you know, let's was, let's connect. And we, it was off to the races. We had such a ball. So what that says to me, I'm always looking for lessons. You know, a lot of people say LinkedIn, I hate it. Why do I have to do it? Should I only do it when I'm Looking for a job? No, no to all of that. It's the big cocktail party in the sky where you can meet with people from around the world who knock your socks off and inspire you. So why wouldn't you do it? So. So if you can, I hope lesson number one here is take the time when people reach out. Not everybody, but when it really makes you go. That sounds interesting. Definitely. Get on Zoom. And that's why we're here today. All right, Rob, let us start with. This is a story you told me when we first talked. And, you know, it's so remarkable, and I know it shaped you in so many ways. Your miracle story, we call it. Would you start with that? Because I gives us the. Gives us the context of why you are who you are and do what you do. Would you?

Yeah, I appreciate that. And. And it really does. You know, I think if nothing else, those that are listening to this story, hopefully they can find themselves in the midst of it. You know, for me, Kathy, I go back to when I was about ready to head into my senior year of university. So this is going back a few years now, being age 47. So this is 1997.

Wow.

And, you know, everyone kept on saying as it was the summer and I was approaching going back, right, because we typically head back in university in August time frame, mid August or so, and this is around July, mid summer. And family members and friends said, rob, you're ready to embark in the best year of your life. It's your senior year. So I was excited. There was anticipation building in my heart, my mind. I was a basketball player. I was going to be co captain of the basketball team, business student, and I'm 21.

I mean, come on, it all should be good, right? It sure.

It should have been.

So they say.

So they say. And so I started to observe something that was not so good, and that was a tumor in my abdomen. That in that July, just a month and a half before I went back to the college campus, I found. And it was growing with every day, and it was extremely, extremely painful.

You could feel it. You could.

Oh, I could feel it. It was. So I told my mom, certainly very close with my mom, and she urged me to see the doctor right away. And I'm like a cool 21 year old young man. And I said, kathy, no, no, mom, it'll go away. Everything will be fine. It didn't. And then now, as weeks progressed, the tumor was getting larger, the pain was even getting stronger, more significant. And so now I find myself on the college Campus. I did not see the doctor until I stepped foot on the college campus and got a basketball physical, which was not a foreign thing for me. Typically, as soon as I step foot on the college campus, the coach urges us to get a college basketball physical. And I did that. And so were you nervous?

Were you nervous?

Goodness, I was nervous beyond belief.

So you knew something was wrong. You just were. Denial. In denial?

Yeah, I was in denial. I didn't want the doctor to tell me what I thought I was, may have. So I go in to see him and doctors are supposed to play it pretty cool because this is their profession. Then the doctor did, but I saw the look of urgency on his face and he says, you need to see a doctor. You need to see, get test done right away and see some specialists. And I walk out of that doctor's appointment. Kathy it was arguably the loneliest walk of my entire life. About a half mile across campus to my college apartment. And the best way I can describe it, I was thinking the worst. What, do I have cancer at 21 years old and I'm going to die prematurely or something? I didn't even, I was like numb to the world. I didn't even have like feelings really. That walk was very lonely. It was very numbing. Long story short, I get CAT, CAT scans, MRIs, ultrasounds by multiple doctors, multiple times, mind you.

Right then, right after a few weeks.

I mean, shortly after, with a matter of like a few days, I was getting my first test done. And then they, these doctors would study the test, they didn't know what it was. So I would get other tests, I would get retested.

It didn't look like a normal tumor.

No, very abnormal.

I see.

So six weeks came and went. Yes, I said six weeks, not six days. Six weeks came and went. They still didn't know what it was, so they didn't know what to do about it. Now, I come from a family that believes in prayer and the power of prayer. And this is a little bit about my spiritual journey as well. So I grew up in like a Christian home and, and so my family is praying for healing, but quite frankly, during these six week period of time, they're praying for a diagnosis so they.

Can do, we can do something, something.

So whether this goes away miraculously through the power of healing or just practical means, we just want to know what it is so we can go about it in practical ways. So I was a wreck spiritually, emotionally and physically throughout the period of the six weeks until what I'm about to share with you, Kathy, I go into seeing ultrasound specialists that I had not previously seen any of my other doctor's.

Appointments, the hospital somewhere. I'm so curious.

Yeah, kind of a world.

Very reputable, you know. Yeah.

Philadelphia area. And yeah, Dr. Was. I don't know how I got a chance to see him. Had a chance to see him. He proceeds to, you know, prod and push and everything. But now he's also checking out the ultrasound screen and his utter amazement. I still can't even put into words that I can clearly articulate the look on his face of what I'm about to describe to you. He said, rob, I don't have adequate words to describe what I'm seeing on the ultrasound screen. As I'm checking you out, all I can tell you is what you walked in with today. A clear mass in your abdomen. You no longer.

How?

I said, kathy, I said, oh, hold on. I have pain and you're telling me I don't have anything. He said, rob, let's intently look at the screen together. And I'm gonna try to take you through this as I'm learning, you know.

So he's looking at your past records and then he's doing an ultrasound and they're not matching. Oh, my God. When was the last ultrasound?

Oh, it was, it was probably just a week prior. I mean, I was getting tests done all the time. So literally, when he begins to, you know, tell me this the first time and then tell me a second time further checking me out, it's like my mind was trying to play catch up with what was happening in my heart. And in that moment, I started to come alive in the depth of my being in a way I'd never come alive again. Now my mind was saying, I still have pain. What's going on? This is a false diagnosis, all these different things. But he's clearly saying, you don't have anything. You don't have anything. You better believe I walk out of this doctor's appointment where a modern day miracle took place, asking a whole different set of questions I had never asked before in my life. Who am I? Why am I here? Has everything to do with purpose. Purpose for me as a 21 year old young man before I encountered what I encountered, this miracle experience was, let's be real. It was winning the next basketball game. It was hanging out with my friends and going drinking, it was going to a baseball game. That was purposeful living. But Kathy, coming out of this unusual and miraculous set of circumstances, it was almost like blindness that I had in My eyes was now lifted and I could see myself and others and life much more clearly. It was wild.

And did the pain finally subside? I'm interested in this great follow up question.

Still had pain. As I left, I first started sharing this miracle story with my parents, brother, sister, those closest to me, family and friends. With every person I shared what had happened. The pain gradually left my body more and more with every person I shared this testimony with. And after sharing my story, quite frankly, with probably a third of the college campus, when I got back, I'm being a little, I mean, within a matter of 24 hours, the pain left my body in its entirety and it's never been back since. So that showed me a couple things. One, I think we all have some crossroads we go through in life. Some are extreme, some are subtle. And what do we do with the information we're given? That's number one. And the second thing is when we have a story and we're willing to share it, the power that comes with us expressing our story is unbelievable. Not just the what it does for us, the one sharing the story, but the recipients of that story. So there's a two way exchange there that can bring further healing to ourselves and other people as well.

I had so many questions. What a story. Modern medical miracle. Where do I want to take my questions? We talked about this earlier, but I'd love to hear what you think when you say telling of the story changes the teller and the receiver. You know, I was just thinking this morning, there are no, there are no accidents, right? It's, it's all serendipity and wonderful. But I was thinking, you know, right now I'm going through a bit of a vulnerable time, moving, blah, blah, blah. I find that one of my problems, challenges, foibles, I don't want to say flaws, is that I like to be the strong one, where everything's going well. I don't like it when I'm sniffling in the corner or feeling I don't like it. The problem is that's a facade. No one is always strong, no one is always happy. If, if you are, you're either in denial or you, you are blocked off from your emotions or you're faking. So can you tell me if you feel it's important for the listeners the telling of the story both before and after? What is the biggest learning that we do need to share our vulnerabilities and our fears. Tell us what we need to learn vis a vis leadership and being who we're meant to Be in the world, which I think is the point.

I believe that we either think that we need to be joyful, happy, or we need to be sad and angry. I encourage people to live in and with both that when we absorb joy and we resort, we also absorb grief. Both. There's a place, I'll give you an example that pops my mind right away when we're at memorial service. And the efficient, the pastor and efficient, they lead us through that service, right? An effective efficient is going to say, hey, this is a celebration of one's life. There's gonna be a time, and rightly so, to grieve, to be sad, the heartache. We need to feel that. We need to absorb that because we're human. That's what makes us human. At the same time, there's gonna be times of sharing of story, of those that are sharing the story and those that are receiving the story. A time where we laugh, there's joy. Now that's in a memorial service. That's when our heart's aching. And so if we can learn how to absorb it in the most difficult, trying time of our life, the passing of a loved one, and we can absorb it at the memorial service, absorb.

The positive, the happy, the joy, as well as.

As well as both. Because again, I think in our culture, Kathy, we fit. We feel like we have to be one or the other. Why can't we be both? And I think the more that we learn how to be both, how to absorb and then live in and out of this place, absorbing both, we're true to ourselves. There's an authenticity and a transparency that naturally comes out. Not trying to be someone who we're not, but being true to who we are, truly designed to be.

It's so beautiful, Rob.

So. And I'm learning. And listen, I want to be vulnerable with you. This is something I tend to weigh heavier on, the joyful happy. You know, I. I've been called at times, on occasion by family members and friends. Rob's this bouncing happy face, you know, he just bounces all over the place, regardless of what life throws. But I am learning the more that I live, as important as that is, and that is who I am, to spend a little bit more time also dealing with and absorbing reality and in a sense, being inspired by it, the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. And I came across this article that I'm reminded of, and I forget who wrote it right now, so I don't take any credit for it, but I love the title and it said, inspired by your Reality learning. I think it was medical doctors from Harvard. There was one in particular inspired by your reality and all the medical research that backs it up that, you know, those that are more present, those that are more self aware and aware of others and circumstances are those that truly are in touch with what they're going through, the good, the bad and the challenging things. And they absorb in such a way that they're inspired and that inspiration kind of catapults them into a place with others they never have otherwise.

Oh my gosh, Rob, my head's exploding. You know something I read this very day I want to ask you about, I think it touches on that. I get emails every day from Mike Dooley, who his company is tut.com Spiritual Notes from the universe. So, you know, God's notes. And they're funny. I laugh out loud. I'm laying in bed reading every day. And every day the quote is either for me or someone I know, a client, a friend. But this one said, I'm going to butcher it. Something like, you're a spiritual, a spiritual person to know that you're responsible for your happiness. You're a spiritual giant when you know you're responsible for your unhappiness. And I was like, what? Wait a minute, hang on. What is that? What's that mean? But I again, I'm going through things where I'm kind of obsessing about, is the move going to be right, is the light going to be right for zoom? I'm making myself nuts. And I realized that was for me. It's not that, you know, as a former therapist, it is not that we just brush off what we're worried about. No. But we are responsible for our unhappiness as well as our happiness. It's a choice.

It is, it is.

And people hate that.

I know. And we underestimate the power of choice. And really, we underestimate the power of the human will in the midst of choice.

Oh, tell us more about that.

I will do something or I will not do something. And. And when we realize the power that we have in choice, when, when we feel a certain way, when we wake up on the wrong side of bed in the morning. Let's get practical. We all have those days where for whatever reason, I guess we just didn't get enough sleep. We're having some.

It's cloudy and rainy and I'm like, not again.

Not again. Oh, my goodness. When we wake up, the temptation for all of us. Do I just kind of wallowing all this all day and Just, you know, like. Or do I do something about it? Do I go out for a long walk and. Or if it's raining, for instance, you know, do I. Do I call a faithful friend that I know has the gift of encouragement because I need a little pick me up. Are we take. Are we making the choices to perhaps play a role in turning around a set of circumstances at the same time feeling them, you know, because I love what you said. You have such an extensive background with, you know, you're a cheerleader people, your therapy background, of course, you know, of. It is so easy to just bypass how we really feel. I did it for years.

Yeah.

In the name of gratitude, you just bypass how you really feel.

Right. So I'm learning and it is a balance. Like sometimes I'll look and it's gray and awful and I'm. Like, I said, I'm going back to bed. That's okay. I am not by any means saying always be happy. I am saying, know that everything is a choice and we can choose to nurture ourselves and go back to bed because the day is exhausting and you're tired and it's enough and you need sleep and you need to look at your phone. Maybe. I love it. Now let me transition to something that, you know. You. You. Your two bullet points were amazing. I'm looking. When we tap into the spiritual aspect of who we are, it inspires us to do great things. And we all have a story that the world needs to hear before we launch into those. Can you and I talk about when we say spirituality in leadership and all bells start going off? I mean, you. You're a top leadership speaker and organizations hire you. And maybe you don't say the word spirituality because it gets people very nervous. They think we're talking about God or Christ or Buddha or whatever. Religiosity. Can you tell me what you think spirituality and leadership is how you define it when you're speaking to organ, to me, and when you're speaking to organizations.

Think, Kathy, of those moments, those times and seasons where in the depths of who you are, you don't have adequate words to describe how you feel. Some may call deep calls to deep. Some may call it your heart of hearts. There's different terms for it, but I really find in the deepest place of who we are, that's the spiritual place.

Can it also be the knowingness that you have that you have no business knowing? Like, absolutely. I know this is going badly. I know this person is hurting. I know. But you really don't. It's not coming through your senses. It's coming through a knowingness.

Is it that knowing this, that into intuition, right. The intuitive nature of each one of us. And some could be listening. And like Rob, I'm not terribly intuitive person. This is kind of a foreign concept for me. I think people are a little bit more intuitive than they may even realize. And I think we can point to certain aspects and times in our life where whether it was conscious or unconscious at the time, right. That we really. There was a deep conviction of the heart, something deep within us that started to well up and we kind of went with our gut. We. A feeling that over overtook us, for lack of a better term. And it just compelled us to act, to be kind to someone, to do something that a manual or a book, you know, could never even scratch the surface to really telling it. But we just felt in that time we needed to do this. I don't know why exactly, I'd have all the answers, but I felt compelled to do it. That's a very spiritual place. Right. And so for me, I want to know how I can tap into this deep place more often. I want to nurture it, I want to care for it. It's like being a good steward of certain things. Certain. You know, we oftentimes will talk about being a good steward of exterior things. You know, I want to be a good steward of my finances. I want to be in leadership. I want to be a good steward of my team members, those entrusted my care. All those are good things. All those are good things. However, when we learn to be a good steward of the depth of who we are, our very being, as a natural byproduct of that, we begin to be a better steward of everything. Of everything, really.

Of everything.

That's it.

You. I love it, Rob. It's so beautiful. You and I have talked. I always say, I don't really think you can lead anything if you can't lead your life, your own self. But let me ask you this. Sometimes I try to explain it in my courses and a few of all the concepts that I teach, this one is the one that's most difficult. I'll say it changes your life to tap into your highest self.

Yeah.

And people will go, I don't know what that is. What is that? And I'll try to explain. And I want to see if you think this gets at the heart of it. I'll start with, well, I think you probably know what your lowest self looks like. You know, when a green toad comes out of your Mouth, for instance, and you say something mean, and you're like, I just said that. You know it. You feel wrong. Typically like, oh, shoot that. Or if you say something to yourself about yourself and then you actually feel sick or bad because you said, that's so stupid, or you're such a loser. That's your lowest self. And often that comes from ego. Ego fear, ego defensiveness. The highest self has a different feeling. It's tapping into something. And it can be anything you want, angels, your intuition, whatever the heck, another part of you. But I think we know it when we are being that, because there's an expansiveness, there's a gentleness, there's a. I don't mean we're all going to be wusses. I mean, you can say tough things with compassion, but I think there's a feeling, there's an energy to the highest self and the lowest self. Does that get added a little bit, too?

Oh, right out of Kathy. You know, I got to know Michael Gerber. Michael Gerber wrote the E. Myth Revisit.

I love it. That book so much.

It's awesome. Me too. And Michael calls it transcend yourself to transform yourself.

Oh, he teaches that?

Yeah. I didn't know that that's what he's doing in this season of his life. It's phenomenal. And I think it really speaks to say it again, transcend yourself to transform yourself.

I just love it.

And it goes along exactly with what you said, very eloquently. And. And so I think so much has to do sometimes when we. We can lose ourselves in the trenches when we're down here and we're living life and you. But yet when we step back, you know, like Michael would teach in business, you gotta. You. You can't. You gotta remove yourself from the nitty gritty of business. And you got to work on your business in order to work in it more efficiently and effectively.

There's the doer, the manager, and the visionary. You can't just be the doer.

Can't just be the doer. So I think to your point, though, I think when you transcend yourself, I think it's getting in those zones, you know, we speak of, like, elite athletes or athletes in general. They'll have times where they're in flow. They'll have times where they're in a zone. And, you know, we were just watching. My family's a big basketball family. We were watching women's. Come on. We love it. No, the women's national basketball champion. And so my middle child, Kayla she's 12 years old. She aspires to make it in the WNBA someday. And the. The reason why I bring it up is. I mean, there's these phenomenal athletes and one in particular, and. And she. She's just one of the best players in the country, Caitlin Clark, and she plays for Iowa, and she's in a zone a lot.

You can see it on the court.

See? See it? She's two or three steps ahead of everyone else on the court. She knows where she wants to get the ball and why she wants to get the ball. And when she gets to that spot, she's already shot it and made it in her own mind. And sure enough, she makes it far more than she misses it. And the reason why I bring that up is what you highlight is so key that there's a place to live, not perfectly live and lead out of a place of being in the flow, not based on as much of what we do, but based on who we are. So when we come to terms in this very deep, spiritual place of how uniquely wired and made we are, that there is, in fact, no need to compare. Now, listen, we're all human. We all have our moments in times where we do compare. It's called imposter syndrome. We've heard the term. We've heard it.

I'm doing a webinar on it. You already have. You're missing it by the time you get this, but, yeah, a whole thing. Here we go. 75% of executive women have it. Anyway, go ahead.

So. So we all deal with it. I think it's. It's learning to. Learning to let go of the ego. Learning to embrace who you were truly designed to be. So a lot of my heart, a lot of my message has to do with embracing your unique identity. So much comes down to that. So much. I.

Let me ask. Let me ask. Right in here. Oh, my gosh. I'm not going to get you out on time. People listen to this, and they don't know who they're meant to be. They don't know what that means. Part of it is, you know, I always say, we are what our childhood taught us to be. Some childhoods are terrible. Some childhoods are rough. No. Shut up. No, you aren't supposed to be that. You're supposed to be quiet and demure and not a leader. Kathy. No, nobody ever said that to me directly, but can you. Let's get to the practical. Robin, in the next 10 minutes, if someone says, I don't know who I'm meant to be, It's. It's a foreign idea. I'm guessing you start where I start, which is, what are your unique. What. What are the things that really make you different? But you wouldn't believe how many women, and I think men, too, have no idea what that is. Tell us what to do when they say, I don't know. I have no.

5 questions, 5 practical questions to ask regardless of your season of life, regardless of your age, regardless. Because I find that even the older that I live, the more I have to revisit these things. Right. It's almost discovering or rediscovering who we truly are so we can live a life filled with purpose. So someone could be listening right now, and they're in a season of their life, and they're asking. And perhaps leaders asking legacy questions like, I. I really hope that this happens. I want to leave this behind upon the earth, so when I'm no longer here, it can make such a great impact, influence, etc. So whether you're just starting out or you are a seasoned. I call them seasoned saints. Seasoned leaders that have been around for years, tons of experience, tons of competence. It doesn't matter. We all need to revisit these five questions.

The first is, wait, before you say them, can I just add this? Not only do we need to revisit them, we're different people with different developmental stages. What I wanted at 20 and 30 was not what I wanted at 40 and 50, and it is not what I want at 62. So you have to revisit because look what you. From the day you were told you don't have a tumor, or before that, look how you changed.

Yeah.

In a matter of eight weeks. So please think about this regularly every year of your life. Okay, Rob, go ahead.

So good. So good. All right, number one, what are. You know. So I'm going to speak on behalf of each person listening. What are my personal core values? So we're not talking about the business organizational values. We're talking about our personal core values. In other words, what are the top personal things that you value? They're kind of deep convictions of the heart. It's the things that you stand firm and you stand by, that you're making decisions out of this very deep, authentic place, day in and day out, that may not even fully realize it. I'll give you an example. For me, one of my personal core values is commitment. It's commitment. Like, I can make an argument everyone should be as committed as I am. But I may define it differently. My definition of Commitment is you're either you're in or you're out. There's no life in between. So what are, you know, what are my top personal core values? Second question. What are my top three strengths or natural talents?

This is where people struggle.

This is it.

Women. I don't know. I don't know what I'm good at.

Back, ever since you were a little boy, a little girl, when you're a child, the things that came a bit more naturally to you that when you were playing an instrument, perhaps, or you were in a classroom situation, you just saturated the information. You absorbed it in such a way where you became it. And everyone, everyone looked at you for all the answers. It was a sport that you maybe played and it just came so naturally. And so you were just. You worked at it. And see, strength areas are natural talents. There's typically an abundance of fruit that comes from them that benefits other people.

But if you don't recognize them, you're unhappy because you're not leveraging them. You have no idea.

That's right. Yeah.

I hope people will listen to and I'll link to it. Power gap. Number six, Losing sight of your thrilling dream for your life. It's about how to. And. And brave sight. How do I recognize these strengths? Because my God, Rob, women in particular really are. There's almost like a wet blanket, a cloak over their eyes, not allowing them to see it because they don't want to seem like a bragger. It's very sad. All right, that's number two, your natural strengths. Thank you for that. All right, what else?

Number three, what are the greatest passions in your life? Passion areas. A way I like to put it, is a passion is something that has you leaping out of bed in the morning in which to do or to accomplish. It's not hard work. I mean, some might be thinking, oh, this, when I go on vacation here, that has a great passion for me. I mean, think about it.

We.

Even if people hit the snooze button a number of times to wake up, not everyone does, but some people do see a passion area when, let's say, I don't know, you got to get up early to engage in a passion area. You don't even have to use the snooze button. Matter of fact, you don't have to put the alarm on.

Yeah.

Because your body naturally adjusts to get up early. Why? Because you're so excited to do it through that. And so for me, reading a really good book, I get really passionate about that.

Now a fiction Book or non fiction?

You know, typically it's non fiction. It's non fiction. I love to read leadership books and I love to read biographies. I like to read certain things that, like, I feel like. But not everyone's like that. Some people it's fiction. Some people, it makes me come alive. It scratches my intellectual itch.

Right.

The learner or student in me comes alive. I want to start sharing it naturally with other people around me. You'll never guess. You got to read this book. And I become Kathy, like the greatest salespeople person for some of these books. But so that has to do. Question number three has everything to do with our greatest passions.

Can I add to that? Would you mind? Some people don't know what they're passionate about, but I'll say, look at what agitates you, too. What makes you say, I have to do something for this? So maybe it's a group or a population or a cause. So it doesn't always have to be a joyful feeling. It can be like, that's it, I've had it. I have to participate in this. It's what gets you going. And you almost. It grabs you by the collar and doesn't let go. That's what a passion is, in my view.

Yeah, enough's enough. Not on my watch. I gotta do something about this.

And not one more minute can go by. I can't respect myself if I don't do something that's also a passion.

Brilliant. Brilliant. Number four. This is a biggie, and I love to pause. We don't have the time to do it on this, on the show, but I love to pause with people in this one. So I really encourage this question for people to take the necessary time to really think through this and let your heart engage in this very deep place. What are my most significant life milestones that have helped shape me, who I am today? The good, you know, time milestone moment or time that was of tremendous blessing or of major pain. But it's all been used in some interesting way to shape me.

Right.

Who I am today with a story that people are waiting to hear.

Oh, that's so good.

Now this takes. Now what this requires, Kathy. This requires us to have a bit of a time of reflection on this one. And this is not easy. You know, I'll give you two very briefly for me, one was the. When my first child was born, his name's RJ, my oldest, who's 14 now, the moment he was born, I remember my wife was not in the room. She was cleaning up she was doing something, took her outside and for the first time I was in the hospital room with just my boy and me and you know, he was all swaddled up, you know, and swaddling. I know I was looking at him and in the depth of my being I said that's my boy. That is my now another life milestone for me. Beautiful was when I concluded my junior year of high school when my mom took me to a local lake, just her and I and she told me that her and my father were going to get divorced. And as a middle child, happy go lucky. Kind of wore my heart on my sleeve. Still do. I was devastated by hearing those words and I started to sob uncontrollably.

How old were you? Junior.

I was, yeah. It was after my, it was after my junior year of high school. So I would probably what, 17ish or whatever. And I can say now, you know, both of those, one of tremendous blessing and one of very. A lot of pain and discomfort and challenge and trial. But both were used to shape who I am today. I mean I have such a heart today for people that have lost one or both parents to divorce or from death or whatever the case may be. I just do. I do. And I think in part and in large part because the relationship with my dad was not good for a while. It's wonderful now today, but it was, it was not good for a number of years and then seeing the death of my parents relationship and. But I look. And what do I get most life out of today when I can come alongside of someone that is a new father, mother, enjoying the birth of their first child or come alongside of someone who has lost a parent or going through a divorce within their family. And I come just as alive in that but in a different way than I do with someone who has a newborn. So those are just two. But really encourage people to take a closer look there. Yeah.

Can I add something, Rob? Not that you need any adding but.

Oh please.

In the work that I do, people often can't see those milestones for what they are. They don't know how they're. They've shaped those milestones have shaped them. So one thing I'll say is if something looks like the worst crisis you've ever faced, let's say you were devastatingly like I was laid off and it was so brutal and it was really disruptive to my life. And sometimes we can say if in five years I look back and say this was the best thing that happened or in the case of a Divorce. There is something that will come of this that couldn't have come. Something positive. What could that be? And just not knowing, but opening the door that that thing could be positively transformative lets you see that it in some way will be. Does that make sense?

That's wisdom. It makes complete sense. It's wisdom because you're meeting that individual right where they are.

Right. They don't have it yet. It's misery, it's grief. It's right.

What does that go back to? Our earlier conversation of, like, embracing joy and also embracing the heartache. And what you're doing in the midst of that advice, Kathy, is you're saying, I understand, and I'm with you, with what you're going through. It stinks. This is horrible.

This is not what you signed up for. You think you know it's not what you want.

Yeah. But just opening that doorway, to use your language, opening that doorway just a little bit to where they can receive just a little bit without forcing it too much of perhaps, just perhaps some of the beauty that may come from it. Years down the line, months down the line, years down the line, and planting a seed there. Planting a seed for an open door. And I love that.

Yeah, that's what your tumor did, Rob.

Yeah.

Nobody wants to go through the weeks of thinking you have cancer, but look what. What emerged. My gosh. Yeah, I cut you off. I'm sorry.

Fifth and final question. What is my primary gift that I've been given in life so when I'm no longer here on this earth, it becomes a legacy I leave behind to positively affect future generations? Now, you could say, well, Rob, that has to do with our strengths and passions. Yes. And yes. And yes. All this is fluid. A lot of dotted lines, a lot of. Can you tell? I love embracing the gray. I don't see everything in black and white terms or categories.

I'm sorry. That's part of number three. I don't like it.

But I think this is where legacy steps in. And we do have some listeners, and I touched on it briefly earlier, that there could be some in a certain season of their life of great influence, leadership influence, but they are asking legacy questions. How can I be a bit more intentional and consistent with positively influencing those entrusted in my care today? And that primary gifting, you know, there's a bunch of gifts, but I'll use a couple as an example, if this could help people. Are you a. Have you been given the gift of empathy? You know, some people just have a gift of empathy. I think we all need to grow in empathy. We all need to learn how to be more, you know, compassionate and empathetic and, and really be present with people and have that genuine sense of connection. There are people that are already lived and camped out there. Like it's just kind of who they are. Some are listening like, is that a primary gift of yours? For others it could be just a really pure leadership gift. Like ever since someone was young, it's like man, people just would follow me whatever I did. It wasn't always good, but they would just follow me, you know, is that. And see gifts, whether you have the gift of empathy, leadership, mercy, teaching and we could go down encouragement, all these are tremendous gifts when utilized properly. But see, they're not meant. Yeah, they're not meant for us. Right. We've been given the gift or gifts, but it's selfish if we keep it all to ourselves. We need to become the gift to let the world unwrap us so we're no longer here. It's the gift that does keep on giving that does leave a ripple effect for future generations. I mean, that's the beauty of it. I don't know if you ever saw the movie, Kathy. Fascinating movie. And I don't want to give away the whole, the whole thing. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. It was called, it's called the Book of Eli with Denzel Washington. No, came out back years ago. And I'll wet your appetite and the listeners appetite a little bit for this movie. Denzel carried around this book with, with him and it was the most powerful book in the universe, you know, and it had all the truths and all the principles and all the different things that would change someone's life. And he carried with them all the time one problem. You know, it would attract a lot of people to Denzel who was carrying the book. And it would attract a lot of good people and a lot of bad people. Everyone wanted the book. And at one point in the movie, the book was taken from Denzel and there was a lot of worry and a lot of fright like oh my goodness, it got in the hands of the wrong people. What's going to happen? He doesn't have Eli doesn't have the book anymore. But see, what people didn't realize was Eli became the book. He carried it around with them so much. He'd recited it so much. He shared the stories of in the book so much with others at the camp fire, at the here over there. So much to where he became the book in the same way.

Wow.

Each of us has an opportunity, as we are good stewards of the gifts that we've been given, to become the gift.

Boy, that's beautiful.

So if we're no longer here anymore, in other words, the book has been taken now the book has been given to so many different people because of how you lived your life. And you can multiply your effect. And it's just a beautiful thing to look at the gifts in our life.

There's no doubt about it. Look at it.

Yeah.

You know, if, if I think about what is my legacy I was just looking at when I got a little whatever popular on LinkedIn, a LinkedIn production team came to do a little video to get people to Write on the LinkedIn platform. What I mean, now, what is it, 90 million people do it? But anyway, the last. And they were with me for a whole day. So they took it and dissected everything I said to two minutes. And the last, the last image is me saying, I like to say that if I can help one woman a day bypass what I've been through and thrive, it's a good day. And I sent it to a friend and she goes, I cry every time I watch that one. I don't know why, but I cry watching it. And I think that sometimes our legacy can be turning our mess the mess that we had. I wish I had quoted this, I wish this were my quote. But turning our mess into a message that I could say, stuck in the pain of the mess or I can create after overcoming that, a message for others. And I think that's a little bit what you're talking about. Is it?

It really is. It is. And I think, man, I just keep on coming back to this of that joy and also the grief. It's so easy to start sharing your life when you've over already overcome it something. Right? And so, so may well five years ago, you'll never guess, you know, or oh my goodness, that tumor, that was a miracle. But I want to share something with you. I think that'll really help you and, and the listeners really appreciate what I currently have gone through. And I wasn't planning on doing this, but I think it'll really, I think people really resonate with this. My son, my oldest, who's 14, who I mentioned before, he had extremely challenging a couple days last week. He was rushed to the emergency room. He has severe allergy to peanuts, walnuts and pecans. And so he was getting tested for an annual test to see how much he's improved in one of those knots, you know, and it so happened that it was pecans. And so it's a very safe environment. There's some, some nurses, some people that know what they're doing and, and they take them through six stages. And he was doing pretty well until the fifth stage.

Like they're injecting him with and then.

Yeah, Yep. Then digesting like, you know, pecan butter and stuff like that. Well, Kathy, this stage came.

Yeah.

And it did not go well at all. His body was acting violently. He had to get two EpiPen shots, a steroid. And so finally they said we need to take him to the er. And my wife's trying to text me. It's craziness. And so I go talk about spiritual for me, I go into a mode of prayer and I also keep a very close connection with my wife during this time of what they need. How's he doing? And he makes it to the hospital and they had to give him an IV to flush things out, take his vitals. Everything's okay. But it was a big scare in our family.

I don't like it. They thought it was supposed to be safe, this testing. Anyway, that's another point.

I know, and, but I share that to say I'm going through stuff right now the same way all of us are going through stuff right now. And I wanted to share that now, thankfully, he did come out on the other end and he's doing just fine now. He's back and he's doing great. But day in and day out, life happens. And making a commitment at the end of the day to embrace who we are by looking at those five key questions. Being thankful for the gift that we truly are in this world and for the people that are currently in our life day in and day out, it's a wonderful place to be. And when we actually become more self reflective and be not just okay, but learn to embrace the quiet times of self reflection, meditation and prayer, then we start to learn slowly but surely how to absorb both joy and grief together. And I've learned as a natural result, it equals presence for me. I'm more and more present as I really embrace both of those things in my life. And so I just, I encourage everyone listening right now. Just take the time that's necessary for you, embracing who you are and what you're about. And you will benefit greatly. And others will be the beneficiaries of that.

And I think that's what great leadership requires really does in the end of the. So great. Rob. Oh my gosh. I could. I kept you for an hour. Tell everyone where, where to soak up all of your incredible materials. Where do we go?

Yeah, I think centralized resource, not uncommon for us in leadership, Kathy, is one little website. Just website is just great. I'm all over social and stuff too, but just go to the website, you'll find everything there. It's just robholeman.com.

Oh, my gosh. Thank you for joining. I, I, I always feel so energy shifted after talking to you. Calmer, happier, a little more in touch with my emotions. You have a gift. You certainly do. You are a gift to our world, Rob.

Oh, I appreciate you. I'm so thankful that God connected us and I look forward to continuing the conversation and thank you for, for what you do. I know you are talking about a ripple effect upon the world, Kathy. Keep doing what you're doing. Because I know so many leaders that continue to be greatly inspired by you and because it's, you know who you are and you're not afraid to not only embrace, but you're not afraid to live in and out of that place. So thank you.

Thank you, my dear. Thank you so much. Ah. All right, people, I want to hear from you. We want to hear from you. Rob is incredibly responsive and we want to help you on your journey. So again, you know, I don't feel I'm doing my podcast hosting job if you don't, if this doesn't spur something and hopefully a question, wait, I didn't understand this, or I don't understand how to make that practical, or here's an example. I listened to Robin. Here's a value I didn't know I had. And now I know why I'm so unhappy in my current role, whatever it is. Can we hear from you? Wherever you see this on social media, I know Rob and I would be so grateful. And if you have any questions, let us help you on your journey. Thank you for being here, my friends. Thank you for being on the Finding Brave path. And Rob, come back again, will you, please? Soon.

You don't have to talk me into a Catholic.

See you tomorrow. Thank you, everybody. Have a wonderful few weeks and we'll see you soon. Bye. Hi, folks. Kathy here. I'm thrilled to share that I'm offering a new session of my eight week coaching and training course, the Most powerful you, starting May 10th. In eight powerhouse weeks together, I'll train all about the content of my book, the Most Powerful you, Helping professional women address. What I've seen are the seven most damaging power and confidence gaps that block women from achieving their most exciting goals and and their happiest and highest potential and success. This includes imposter syndrome that impacts 75% of executive women today. The course offers eight weekly Zoom coaching calls with me, eight video training modules, a step by step process for boosting your career and confidence. Fantastic additional resources from over 30 of the nation's top experts, a private online support community for members, and more. Spots are very limited, so sign up now@mostpowerfulyou.com and when you register as an early bird, you'll save $300 and get eight amazing bonuses. I've delivered aspects of this training to over 50 organizations worldwide and participants have called it transformative and life changing. I'm confident this course will move you forward fast. I hope to see you there. Thanks so much for joining us today. And please don't forget to check out for findingbrave.org for more programs, resources and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of finding brave.