267: Why Consent Is a Must for Connection and Respect in Life and Work

No can mean a lot of different things. But often when we lean into our emotional response, it feels like rejection. Even when it isn't.

Feels like the door slammed forever.

Yes. And then we go into despair and isolation and all sorts of other things.

Hello, everyone. This is Kathy Caprino, and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created this show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week, I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of Finding Brave and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful and meaningful life, business and career. Foreign welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. I'm all discombobulated today. I'm just going to tell you that. So if I'm, if I'm frumpering around, you'll. You'll have patience with me. We are recording this in September, early September, and you're seeing this. Excuse me. October 5th, I believe, and I hope your fall is going beautifully. And I am just like every episode, just so thrilled and excited to have our guest today who has so much to teach us. And I feel such a unique, important lens based on who you are, based on the work you do. And I think we're all going to learn a lot. And I know that I already have in talking to our amazing guest, Dr. Eric Fitz Medrude. Thank you, Eric, for being here. I'm so grateful to you.

Thank you so much for having me.

Listen to your beautiful, melodious voice, too. Oh, it's a joy. All right, people, we are talking about why consent is a must for connection and respect in life and work. And I'm going to give you Eric's incredible bio and you know, how his lens is informed. And then we're going to talk about what consent is. And we're talking about it in terms of relationships, but broader than that, we're talking about leadership. We're talking about how we relate to others generally. I do want to say right before we pressed record, I was sharing with Eric that two things. This might sound like a long time ago, but recently I saw the Barbie movie and I wanted to love it and I wanted to post about it in, in raving, you know, glorious terms. And I didn't love it. I was, I was disappointed in a few things. And I just want to share that because I think it's in line with what we're talking about. Sometimes I don't want to come down hard on something. I want to be positive. But this time I was disappointed. And you can read. We'll link to it below. Why. But I did a LinkedIn post about it, and that was fascinating. And I said to people, please be respectful in your comments. I know you won't agree. Many of you won't. Please be respectful. And everybody but one person was. But I bring it up because, number one, it's, it's a human challenge to share things you know, people are gonna not. Not understand or like. Secondly, when you get respectful dialogue, that your mind explodes reading it. It's such a gift. And thirdly, you know, I was sharing, too, that Eric is. Has a lot of stuff going on on YouTube. And I watched a few things this morning to prime the pump. And Eric talked about Labor Day. And, and I want, I don't want to butcher it, but what I heard was Labor Day is very relevant for men. And then you said kind of as an aside, and it's relevant for women, but you're talking about how it relates to, to men. And I'm bringing this up because I had a reaction that, wait a minute, women are. I think I wanted to look up the stat. We're 50% of the pop workforce now. And I felt left out, even though you were really not leaving us out. And it made me very excited about our talk today, Eric, about how men probably feel left out in a lot of what is happening today. Well, that's a long, that's a long dialogue here. I can't wait to hear. But let me tell people about who you are, Eric.

Okay.

Want to say something about that before I give people your bio?

Sure. I mean, I think the big thing that I hope that listeners hear when I'm speaking about men and men's issues is that it makes sense that there's a lot of vulnerability about men talking amongst each other, because there's a lot of historical situations where when men are speaking to each other, it means we are leaving other people out and we're conspiring together to oppress other people. And so it makes sense.

That's what it has meant.

You mean that's what it has meant. Exactly. And so I think it's so reasonable and understandable that maybe you had that reaction when you watched my video because a part of you is wary about men speaking to each other and trying to lift each other up, that that means we're going back into the old Strategies of leaving other people out and pushing other people down, which would have.

Really been an unconscious thing because I don't think I was consciously feeling that. I was consciously feeling like Labor Day is. Is a women's issue. And it's so hard for us, too, right?

It is. It is. And I think one of the things that I'm trying to do in some of my conversations within and among men is to remember we haven't only been putting women down. We haven't only been eliminating, you know, the visibility of other. Other genders entirely, but also we've been putting each other down. Also, we've been putting constrictions around each other, like saying, well, we're just tough it out. We don't need labor rights. We don't need labor movements. We should just tough it out and just business as usual. And the more money we can get, the better. And that's why I'm trying to soften that message to us that we need this. Many of us need it, and it's good and healthy that we need it so that we can undo that message we've been giving and receiving from each other.

Oh, Eric. See? Told you everyone, your head's going to explode. Thank you for sharing that. Wow. All right, let me tell you about Eric. Dr. Eric Fitz Medrude is a therapist specializing in relationship and sexual issues in San Francisco Bay Area. Her former assistant professor at Sophia University. He's published in academic books, presented at multiple conferences, trained therapists, and taught many graduate courses in psychology. Eric has a PhD in clinical psychology from the Institute for no of Transpersonal Psychology. And he wrote the book the Better Man, A Guide to Consent, Stronger Relationships and Hotter Sex by synthesizing what he's learned from his clinical practice about helping men improve their relationships. Wow. Can't we talk for four hours instead of a half hour, Eric? Now I want to. I seem like I'm doing all the talking here, but I do want to read. You know, when I am about to have a guest on, they fill out a prep form and what you wrote, Eric, in terms of what you'd really like to share in the show is to me, so powerful. I'd like to read it. And then I've got to ask a million questions of you.

That sounds great.

You wrote the power of the me Too hashtag and cultural reckoning is not just to hold predators in power accountable. The broad lesson is that consent matters in all aspects of our lives. When we realize that we this is important, that we can't assume we know what other people want or need unless we ask and that they won't know our offers and needs unless we tell them. We instantly improve the effectiveness of our communication and that lets us build win win relationships instead of using dominance that creates win lose scenarios. So can we start with oh, I lost you. Hang on. Can we start with what you think consent is in every possible way we.

Can look at it.

What is it?

Consent is the process of using our communication skills to deliver the love that's in our heart, to deliver the positive intentions for connection that's in our heart, and also to telegraph what our needs are so that people are empowered to give us what we need. And so it's the oil between the gears. It's the process that smooths human communication. It allows us to not just mean well or intend well, think we know, but then miss, because other people are different from us.

So, you know, I didn't ask you this question in the form, but having been a therapist myself and in 18 years of corporate life where I didn't stand up for myself or ask for anything I needed, I mean, I would do it in a way that would sound like a shout because I was too scared. You know, I didn't do it in a way. I think back then I didn't know how to really state it because it was so scary. Yeah.

I would also really validate that. When we don't have the practice and experience of having our voice heard, when we don't have the experience of speaking up, then it often takes a huge amount of internal pressure before it finally comes out. And when it comes out, it comes out as a shout. That's a normal developmental process.

Isn't that an interesting way to put it? I've never thought of it that way. What I felt was I have to get so angry that I can do it, but it's at a boiling point that blows it. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

It's very much what I'm talking about. Anger is the energy to reassert justice, to reassert boundaries when we don't know how, when we haven't yet, when something is pushed in on us. And so anger is often that last thing that kind of pops the bubble. Right. Everything that you've been holding in. And I think that's beautiful because at least now it's getting out. Once we get practiced at letting it out, then we can become more skillful in expressing our anger. Then also we can even become more skillful at being proactive about asking for our needs. Met so that maybe in the future anger doesn't have to become the pin that pops the bubble.

How beautiful. So again, I didn't prep you on this, but I would love to know off the top of your head, what, what do you think holds us back from doing exactly what you're talking about? Asking or asking, you know, getting consent. And what runs through my mind is tell me if this is way off. If I think about a few people I would like to get consent from, I think that what might be holding me back is if I'm going to share what is disturbing me about what's going on or what I don't like about our relationship. And it could be my tennis buddy, you know, it's. It doesn't have to be intimate relationships or even, let's say, my, my team. What I think I'm concerned about is that it's going to come across as a put down or. Or what. Not positive that. That it's going to have to open the door. That consent is going to have to open the door for me to say things that I wish were locked in a box. Does that make sense? Is that what.

Yeah.

Struggle with?

There's a huge vulnerability in giving or getting consent. When, when we're offering and asking for what we want, it means we're revealing something about ourselves. If you haven't been getting what you wanted at work, for example, and then you ask for it really openly and the answer is no, in some ways that feels even worse than just it didn't happen. Now they actually know what you want, they know what you need, and they still aren't delivering it. And in your assess look at the resources or where you look at what's possible, you might think, why not? And that pain of asking for what you want and then not getting it, not feeling valued, feeling left out, not feeling reciprocated, when you're offering so much loyalty, labor, expertise, it's painful to experience that gap.

And then you're going to have to do something about it.

Yeah.

You're not going to just work. You know how. Okay. I asked for the raise and the promotion. Okay. They said no. Well, well, now it's out there for the world to see and. And I'm going to feel embarrassed of myself if I don't now do something, right?

Perhaps. But you're also empowered now. Okay, you got the no. Right. One of the pieces of data that I'm aware of is that for women to continue climbing the corporate ladder, they often need to hit the glass ceiling. And then Change companies so that they can continue moving upward. Well, if you ask for that promotion, you ask for that reason, you get the no. Okay, now, you know, it's time.

100%. I have a number of clients right now. The questions they're asking me are revealing that they're desperate to make what they have work. And from my view, it will never work. So stop going to that. Well, start looking now for another job. Stop being desperate. And I. We all know what this feels like. We stay in things too long, in relationships, in jobs, jobs in businesses, because we. We have worked so hard for them.

I also think that we have this tendency out of the very good parts of our nature to be loyal. And sometimes we mistake loyalty, which is a beautiful virtue in us, for companies. But companies aren't people that give loyalty back.

They aren't. Or they are.

They are not. Right. A company isn't a human person. So we develop this internal relationship because that's how relate. We relate as if things are people, but a corporation isn't a person.

Eric, this is so, so helpful. My goodness. So let's start too, to talk about. You wrote your book primarily for men in relationships, right?

I did.

Do you mind? And we'll talk a little bit about. I guess we'll make this an explicit podcast. Bink. And then we'll go to the leadership realm. But just so that the men listening can really look deep and understand what is the biggest problem around with men and consent in their intimate relationships or their personal relationships.

So I think there are a number. I think the thing that I focus on the most is when we do use explicit consent processes, we initiate, we get to know. Okay. But we can't regulate our emotions in response to that process.

You mean if we. Sometimes men will do it or women. Women, whatever. Because you corrected me, I have to say this. I had assumed that it's more men, many more men getting the know about sexual activity than women. And you corrected me. You challenged me.

I work with high desire women very often and low desire men fairly often. It's not nearly as uncommon as you would think and especially I would expect if you have a lot of listeners who are women who are in business and high drive and ambitious, many of them also might experience themselves as the.

High desire partner in their relationship and understand this.

Yeah.

And normalize it.

Absolutely.

But back to your point. Did you mean that the men you're working with, they can utter the consent statement, but then when the no comes, that that's the problem? Yeah.

This is where a lot of what came out of in my book came from is that I found that a lot of men I was working with didn't just need scripts or maps for how to get consent in a convers. What they really needed was the emotional training, the ground for understanding how to handle what comes out in a consent conversation. If a partner says no, that's one thing. We often experience that as rejection. If a partner says I want something you haven't been giving me, men often experience that as criticism instead of an invitation of I desire you and I want you more. Managing those emotions is a foundational principle underneath the scaffolding of consent conversations. And also very beautifully, consent conversations can go so far beyond preventing sexual assault. They can move towards the greatest pleasure you've ever experienced. Can your partner ask for what they really want and what really curls their toes? Can you ask for what really knocks your socks off? That's where we go with consent conversations. Aspirational.

So what do you think? The three biggest. And again, I didn't prime you for this or prepare you, but this is your life's work, what do you think the three hardest things are? For anyone who asks for something and gets the no is it. Mostly we simply feel unheard, unappreciated, embarrassed. What is it that is so hard to make the ask and get the no back?

Yeah, I think there are. First, learning and understanding what no meant. Did no mean no never? Did no mean not ever with you? Did no mean not right now? Did no mean not the way you asked me? Did no mean yes? But later? No can mean a lot of different things. But often when we come, we lean into our emotional response. It feels like rejection even when it isn't.

Feels like the door slammed forever.

Yes, yes. And then we go into despair and, and isolation and all sorts of other things.

So is it true, you know, as a former marriage and family therapist and we're. I was looking at the system, you can't just be talking to the man or the woman, the individual, because it's also how the response comes, right? I mean, if the no sounds like no, are you kidding me? Well, how is this person going to interpret maybe that sounds like no forever? You don't love me anymore, you're not attracted to me. Don't we have to teach the other person how to make the no.

So yes and right. A no like that came out of consent, out of context. So if you have been the high desire partner in your relationship and you've been asking and asking and asking and asking, and if your ask Comes out of context. If your ask comes despite the fact that your partner told you that they're incredibly stressed, super tired, are totally unavailable, and then you're asking, of course you're going to get a no, that is no. And what I don't want to do is lean into telling a person to police their authentic responses. And so a no that reasserts a boundary. When a boundary has been set and not respected, that comes with intensity and power is good. We're back to that pin that pops the bubble. Right.

But then what should the response be to the person from the person who gets that door slammed?

So curiosity about what that no means is that first piece. The second piece is okay. Outside of that moment of inquiry, where are we? Where are the yeses to be found here? What is available? What do you need? What do you look for? What helps you get to a yes? And where can I influence that in a way that isn't manipulative or coercive, but that actually gives you the life, the connection, the relationship that you need so that a yes naturally blooms out of our relationship?

I'm thinking, you know, in, in my initial marriage and family therapy training, we learned about meta messages. So for. So for instance, if I say to my husband, the garbage is overflowing, what am I really saying? I'm saying take it out. And I'm also, There's a power message. I'm not taking it out. You take it out. Right. So there's so much. What strikes me in what you're saying is everybody, before they have an intimate relationship or a long term should take a course of yours, read your book. Because most of us don't understand any of what you just said. If we get a no, we, we're so, we're licking our wounds. We're so hurt, we're so vulnerable that we are not thinking. Okay, wait a minute. Let me just regroup here. There have been a lot of yeses. We just had a wonderful walk in Central park and we felt so close. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and have a nervous breakdown. But.

Right, right.

But most of us, I don't think we're at the level of, of evolved thinking and feeling to do what, what you're asking.

I think that's true. That's why I'm doing the work I'm doing.

In every possible manner on YouTube. In your book. Oh, Lord. All right, so your, your first step is to get curious. Is there a second step there that we all should know?

Well, the, the first step was to understand what the no means. The second step was to get curious about where the yeses are. And the, the third I would say is to stay empowered with what's in your control. It isn't the other person. So what is in your control? When we already had this conversation a little bit today, right? If, if your company is saying no, no promotion, no raise, what is in your control? Well, you can find another company to move to. If you're in a relationship, of course there's the exit door, but also where can you create social connections that fill your bucket? Also where can you find self pleasure and connection and joy in your body? I'm not just talking about sexually, but non sexually too. That makes you feel in touch with the presence and joy of life that isn't dependent on your partner saying yes. Only when we are living a multi dimensional thriving life, the desperation to get this one particular domain from this one particular person shifts. It becomes something we want to offer instead of something we're trying to get.

Oh, it's profound really. It's, it to me it's about, you know, I just have to share. I'm single now, amicably divorced. It's amazing what people, the world society views about. You're not with another person. Right. You know, and they may not say it but they judge it. Yet I have to say I personally witness every single day miserable marriages. Yeah, miserable. Like these people are not happy, they're not millions of them, but a lot, especially as we get older and we just settle in and what are we going to do? You know, they think to themselves at 60, leaves this, but they're miserable, they're not in love. It isn't loving, it isn't gratifying. Why am I bringing that up? I think part of this is so much societal training that we have about what a relationship should be. What do you think about that?

Absolutely. I mean we come in with all sorts of romantic and sexual myths about what it means to be in a relationship, what the other person will know about me if they love me. As opposed to continuing to recognize, hey, I'm not the same person I was 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago when we got together and neither is my partner. We both need to update our maps about what brings us joy, what brings us pleasure, how we connect, where the space is for this relationship and where we need to fill our bucket in again.

Again.

I'm back to that multi dimensional life in other ways. Right. Where else am I going to get my joy in this life? So that it's not this expectation. You are responsible for my joy, I'm responsible for my joy. And our relationship can be a part of that is a really important shift.

Oh, beautiful. Here's what pops to mind. You know, I realize, you know, in my marriage and in millions of others, there's a contract that you unconsciously are signing.

Yes.

And sometimes the contract changes, but sometimes you don't have the words for that.

Yeah.

Like everything you've assumed about this particular realm in our relationship has changed because I am not the same person.

Yes.

And what about that? Let's talk about that contract.

Right, that contract. So, you know, I want to draw back in something that you mentioned earlier. Right. The meta communication, the things that you're saying when you're not saying out loud.

Right.

I think it's really helpful for couples to get into the idea of, let's say the quiet part out loud. Let's try to name all of the things. Hey, my family model was partner A did these things in the household, and partner B did these things. I do like that. And I expect you to do that. I didn't like that. And I expect everything to be totally different. Different. It's so powerful. If we can just examine those unconscious assumptions, notice the irritation that comes up when they're not met, and then uncover what was unspoken. And yes, the contracts need to be updated probably fairly often. Right. The longer that you go between updating the contracts, the more likely it is that you've grown apart. And so it's really helpful to re examine. Where are we? What's going on in our social life together? How's it going when you go out with your friends and I go out with my friends? Does that still feel connecting? Do we need more couples that we get together with in order for you to feel like we're a team and we socialize together? Is there an element of we need to go on different kinds of dates than we used to? To. Is there an element of we need to be thinking about creating some novelty and excitement in our intimate life because it's been a long time since we updated those maps.

I got questions for you, Eric.

I got. Yeah, let's do it.

Yeah. One thing I want to say in line with that, I was on this fascinating, fascinating podcast, Virgin Beauty, about the stereotypes for women. And it was about the. What I felt about the Barbie movie. But what I did want to say that echoed what you're sharing. You know, I've thought of myself as a feminist for many, many years, and by that I mean I believe in the equality of all. I don't mean that women should run the world. Right. But to your point, the funny story quickly is my ex, again, Arthur, who was a feminist, he was so ahead of the game. But you might not even remember when this happened, but remember when everyone pumped your gas for you, you went to the gas station. It was. And then it became possible you could pump your own gas. I said to Arthur, honey, do you think you could come down to the gas station with me?

Right.

And show me how? And he said, and on the other podcast, I made it sound snarky. He was never snarky about this, but he went, I'm not going to come to the gas station with you. You are a brilliant woman. And I think I was getting my master's at the time. Whatever. 20 years ago, you go to the pump, you park your car, and you read what's there and you figure it out. You'll do it. And I thought to myself, I was angry, and why? Because the script that I had was what my father did, which was a lot of that stuff. He did the car stuff, he did the lawn.

Yeah.

And I re. I realized in that. Well, not in that moment, I was pretty pissed for 20 minutes, but I realized, what kind of feminist can I be if I'm upset that my husband is saying, you got this. You don't need me. So part of this is we have to look at the scripts we are running that are no longer working. What do you think?

I absolutely agree. I think in the heterosexual couples that I work, work with, there's often both members are explicitly feminists. And for the female partners, there's often an emphasis in that feminism of empowering, liberating, and making women equal to men. But there may not be as much or as often an examination of the roles that she is unconsciously expecting of the man or the men in her life. And, you know, I say that very gently because I really try to keep my conversation within and amongst men because I think there's such a risk that we go into telling other people what they need to do for us. And so I hope that the listeners hear that that's an invitation. And it's an invitation that comes out of our own. Own examination of what, for us, is our next step in liberation. It's not just about accepting equality among others. It's also about liberating us, manhood, masculinity, from old patriarchal norms so that we can be authentic and in our relationships, in our lives, fully present with you.

Beautiful. All Right now I want you to challenge me, as I know you will. Like you did so beautifully when we were talking a few weeks ago when you talk about. And I heard it. And again, really, this is so cross gender. It doesn't. It's time that we explode these, you know, these myths. But I'm going to give you what feels to me to be a truth.

Yeah.

I've talked to you and Mark Green and Ed Frownheim and so many men who are working in remaking manhood.

Yes.

So I'm really learning as much as I can. But if I'm a toddler in this, you're gonna slap me silly and tell me. When I hear you saying we need to have these conversations in, let's say, heterosexual relationships, all I can think is how many of my female friends have said, my husband says, why do you want to talk about everything? Our relationship is freaking fine. Why? Why do you want to do this now? I need to finish the sentence. We all know what the patriarchal programming is. And we all know also that there are some neurobiological differences between men and women. There's research, maybe you don't agree, but there's research even that women looking at an infant can. A newborn can read the cues, the emotional cues of the face better than men. I mean, there are some differences, I think. I think empathy is something that's not only taught, but I think there's other reasons why the empathic brain, you know, whatever, we'll go there some other time. But I do think that not only how men are trained to not be vulnerable, not go there, not talk about all of this, this stuff, just stop. I think it's a real thing. I think we're doing it in disservice if we pretend it isn't. What do you think?

I. So I agree that there are probably some very common differences. I don't think that they are generalizable to the whole of any gender. And this is where, again, speaking about heterosexual relationships, one of the things that I often need to attune to the female partner too, is if you want to have a conversation with a man in your life, you probably need to tolerate and endure a lot more silence than you are used to in the dialogues that you have with other women. So asking a single question, not repeating it three different times in three different ways to provide multiple multi dimensional context. So ask the question once and then wait and you might be very surprised. I could give a little vignette about this, about how long it takes. I was in a class Once. And the instructor was talking about gender differences. It was a woman instructor. She was very skillful. I'm not going to remember her name off the top of my head. And all of the women in the class were participating in the conversation. And the instructor said, I noticed we haven't heard from the men.

Men.

And the woman said, well, why not? They can jump in anytime. And the instructor said, exactly what I'm saying. That men often need silence in order to speak and to know that their voice is welcome. In relational conversations, in vulnerable conversations, it's the opposite of what we expect in business situations. Right. Women speak up and volunteer all the time.

Jump in and dominate and mansplain sometimes. Yeah, it's like, thank you. We didn't need that. That.

Right.

You mean in vulnerable relation situations. I need to hear that again. In vulnerable. Where they're scared.

Emotional and relational conversations, we need more silence. So in men's groups, it's very common to begin with silence.

Only. Only by people like you that know this. I think a lot of men's groups are run by people that probably wouldn't even know. That.

Hasn'T been my experience. But I think that I. I know that that is true within the diversity of men's groups that are out there.

You just explained something to me that has been so difficult a memory. When I was in corporate life and I had a boss who I really respected, and I was managing a $30 million P&L and the vice presidents were around the table, There was a difficult thing he asked of me, and I commented back, but I kept commenting, and he said, are you gonna let. Are you gonna stop talking so I can answer you? I was so hurt, Eric. I basically couldn't speak for the rest of the hour because I didn't realize I had been doing that. But what I think I was doing was he was hesitating. So I was adding context and adding context. And it was about an important P L item.

It's a very common feminine way of dialogue.

Let me keep talking because you're not saying anything.

And to iterate and reiterate, provide additional context, additional layers of meaning. It's circular in a way, and it's beautiful, and it functions beautifully as long as the members of that dialogue are familiar with that dialogic form.

Look at this. My head is exploding. Now let me ask this question. I'm dying to know what you would say here. You often start your answer to me here, saying, in heterosexual relationships, I think you say, yeah. Do you see the same patterns in same sex Relationships or often with lesbians.

I work with a fair number of gay men and the dialogue forms are different and the vulnerabilities are different because.

Different from what you just described, different.

From what I've just described in heterosexual relationships. And I don't think it's as much because gay men are fundamentally different than heterosexual men. I think gay men are men, trans men are men. I think the difference is that gay men have done two things differently. One, they've already examined a lot of the cultural assumptions about what it means to be in a relationship, and they can't stamp a heterosexual template onto their relationship because it doesn't apply. There's a conscious awareness this is different. And the second thing is that gay men are in relationships with other men whose dialogue style is more likely to be a little bit similar to each other instead of different from each other. And what are one of the lessons I teach them from my heterosexual couples is stop assuming that you know exactly what your husband is going through. Just because he's also a man like you are. You have to realize he's. He's an alien too.

So it's almost the flip, like, you know, you're in heterosexual relationships. Sometimes we think you're so different and it's so annoying. I don't understand you. But now in same sex or gay.

Relationships, stop assuming you're the same.

Stop saying you're exactly the same as me. Oh, my gosh, what a fascinating world. All right, now, I could keep you for an hour and I know I can't. Can I ask you to take the idea of consent and bring it into a leadership context? Because I know if people were reading the questions I have for you, they're going to say, well, no, sometimes a manager has just to tell you what to do.

Absolutely.

So can you, can you offer the, the response to that?

There are a couple of different lenses for this. First, be clear about what you're offering and what you're asking for an employee when you're offering them the position, making sure that the needs of the position actually line up with what the job description is so that you're getting the right people. I mean, that's good business strategy, but thinking of it as a consent based process shifts the lens a little bit so that you're clear. This is what we're asking of you. Are you prepared for that?

What do you think the lens is? I mean, I would think everyone would know that I'm asking Will, are you suited to this role? Does this role excite you? And you can you do this role? What do you think most managers, leaders are doing?

Well, I think there's a little bit of a risk sometimes when somebody else has vacated the position to take the job description that was there as opposed to how that job evolved over time. So really examining in that process what has this position become before we replace who was here, how were they successful or not successful? Well, what do we need out of this position now and is there an update needed to the description? Other things that I think can happen is making sure that in a team you have a diverse set of skills so that people can work on the tasks, the projects, the things that really excite them and help them excel forward. And I also think really getting clear, what does this person want out of their career? Career? Do they want ambition? Do they want, you know, challenges being thrown at them? Do they want a chance to prove themselves? Or is this a person with no judgment who's here because they need health care and they need a job and they're just trying to fulfill and get by and we can let them succeed at that by not demanding more and also get their intense loyalty because they're going to be a stalwart fixture here and they're going to hold the fort down, down by just allowing them to prioritize their life outside of work. They're going to come in, they're going to be reliable, but we don't have to assume that everybody wants the same thing that we did that got us into a management position.

So good. I'm also one more thing I wanted to ask, you know, in thinking of when I've managed and when I've done it well and led well and when I know I haven't and all the gray area in between and now I have two amazing contractors who I feel are my team. One thing I, I think I do much more now than I ever did is because it is very task oriented now. You know, one of my people, Arib is my tech person and Carrie is my social media manager. I do a lot more explaining, I do do a lot more context providing like right now. Well, when you all hear this, it's after. But I'm promoting two courses at one time which I've, you know, they say choice depresses response. Well, I'm going to fly in the face of that and I'm going to give people a let's hope it worked. But I have to explain to my team, here's how I see these courses are different. Here's what I why I think that approach you just pitched isn't as clear as possible. And I'm asking, does that make sense? Do you have any thoughts, you know, chat. GPT is helping me condense my emails. How do you think it's. It's much more of a give and take than I think I knew to have as a vice president with a team. And maybe it was also because I had a big team and I didn't have a lot of time for a lot of, of I, you know, I felt like a lot of these conversations I didn't have time for. But what do you think about what I'm talking about? Consent based, you know, task management. Yeah.

I think you're describing not just assuming that the title of the task is enough to help the person understand what it means because you created that title, you knew what it meant. But do they know what it means and not just asking even the question, does that make sense? But can you tell me what this means to you? Because now you're inviting them to fill it in and then you can check it against your own assessment. The other thing I think you're pointing to in your history, you know, when things move too fast, there can be systemic barriers to the process of getting, giving and maintaining the consent process or consent culture at work. Work and really examining at the least what are the points in our journey. We're going to pause and stay and take stock. How do we unravel that constant high RPM mode and how are we going to get into a quieter listening space with each other to reevaluate how we've done and where we're headed next?

Which, which contributes to trust. Trust and bond forming and openness. And I love how you said if I say to, and I just did to my team an hour ago. Does this make sense? That's a yes or no question answer. That's not as helpful as how did you put it? You know, I'd love your thoughts on how we can make this clearer. How did you say it? Because I'm going to write to them in a minute.

This is the task. What does that mean to, to you?

What does that mean to you?

Yeah, what does that mean to you?

Or, or what do you have questions I could fill in that make this clearer? Because it. Yeah. What do you think?

Sometimes asking if they have questions can feel like a test. Like it's, it's very much like do you get it or do you not get it and I have to do more work for you as opposed to asking an open ended question. Please share with me Me what you are hearing and what you are understanding. Now, the task is please fill in your understanding. Please show me your contextualized understanding versus.

What your questions are. Which shows the lack of their like, one, they're not going to be so forthcoming. And two, it's almost a lazy question that, that I'm giving instead of fill in your understanding of this. Oh my goodness, look at this. I could go on forever. Eric, I, I, I really find what your lens and how you approach consent and communication and leadership and how we need to expand ourselves in our communication and interrelationship with others. It's so important. Thank you. Now, where do people follow you and get your book and learn more and just soak up it all? Where do we send them?

My book, the Better man, is available wherever books are sold. You can find a link to my book on my website, drericfitz.com and you can find me on social media. Drerichfitts.

Thank you so much. I really am so grateful and I cannot wait to continue this conversation. I learned so much. Will you come back again soon?

I'd be very happy to. That would be an honor. Thank you.

Wonderful, my dear. All right, everybody. Well, I was going to say what I always say. If you don't have questions, we're not doing our job. But maybe I'll, I'll say it differently. I'll say we'd love you to fill in your understanding of what you heard, your takeaways, because if 5,000 people hear this, there's going to be 5,000 different interpretations of what they want to take action on or what, what feels vulnerable for them. We would so love to hear from you. And you know that we mean it. I mean it. It. Would you please ask a question wherever you see this, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, we will. And hopefully, Eric, you'll have a little time. We would love to answer your questions and continue the dialogue because there is so much learning to be had.

Yes. And we need to work with each other to build a conversation.

Clearly, we can't be alone in our vacuum thinking we know it all. I mean, we've kind of had that. Thank you, everybody. I so appreciate it. And I am wishing you a wonderful finding brave few weeks and we can't wait to hear from you. See you soon. Bye. Thank you again, Eric.

Thank you.

Hey, folks, Kathy here. Are you ready for a big positive shift in how you're working and what you're capable of achieving in your career? Let's make that happen for you. While you might know me best as a podcast host and writer. A key focus in my work work is helping women achieve greater success in their work. In my career and Leadership Breakthrough one on one coaching program, I help women get what they want most which includes more confidence, impact, advancement, financial reward and fulfillment. And I also help them achieve their most exciting visions for the future. In the past 16 years I've worked with over 20,000 women across six continents and before that I served as a therapist and priority. Before that I was a corporate VP managing multimillion dollar budgets and global initiatives. I leverage all of that experience to help women build a new chapter where they can reach their highest and happiest potential doing work they love. Check out Kathy Caprino.com CareerBreakthrough and I hope you'll register now. I'd love to support you. Thanks so much for joining us today and please join. Forget to check out findingbrave.org for more programs, resources and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of finding brave.