277: How We Can Survive and Thrive In an Age of Conflict with William Ury

We often act in ways that go exactly contrary to what will actually get us what we want. And the reason is, is that as an anthropologist, I know this. You know, we human beings, we're reaction machines. And as the saying goes, when angry, you will make the best speech you will ever regret.

Oh, that's good. Hello everyone, this is Kathy Caprino and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created this show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to up speak up and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of Finding Brave and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful and meaningful life, business and career. Hey folks, do you feel you're just not confident and self assured enough right now or that you lack executive presence and communication strength? You are not alone. Hundreds of professional women I've worked with have shared the exact same problem and have also admitted they just don't believe fully in their own capabilities. I would love to help you with this. Join me March 1st in my new free webinar that addresses these problems head on. I'll be teaching key strategies, solutions and action steps that come from my own 40 years of high level work, as well as serving as a senior Forbes contributor and a podcast host and as an entrepreneur and a career and leadership coach for women around the world. I'll also be sharing amazing tips from top experts who teach us how to rise and thrive in work we love. Join me on March 1st. There is nothing to lose and a whole lot of strength to gain. Register@kathy caprino.com confidence and presence 2024 and I hope to see you there. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. This week has been something else. This I believe is coming to you in late February and we're not there yet. We are in the middle of January, but it's been quite a year so far with amazing people to talk to like my guest today, William Yuri. Thank you. William calling from Colorado. Thank you for join joining me. I'm so excited to talk to you and learn.

It's a huge pleasure, Kathy.

Thank you. Thank you. All right people, I hope your new year is off to a beautiful start and I also hope that what we are talking about today is going to hit home for you and hopefully touch a good nerve and get you thinking and perhaps get you rethinking about our key topic, which is how. Well, let's, let's call it the right thing. Your new book, Possible how we survive and thrive in an age of conflict. You know, in reading over your material, looking over your book, William, you say a few things that really pique my interest and, and make me confused. Which is a good thing because in therapy and my work as a coach, it's all conflict is everywhere and in our world it seems to be growing in every way. And you say some things that I think people will find a very different way to look at it. So without further ado, we're going to dig in. But let me tell you a little bit about William. William is the author of as we said possible how we survive and thrive in an age of conflict and the co author to, of Getting to Yes, the world's all time best selling book on negotiation with more than 15 million copies sold. Bravo to you. Wow. And co founder of Harvard's program on negotiation which I would so love to take. William has devoted his life to helping people, organizations and nations transform conflicts around the world. Having served served as a negotiator in many of the toughest disputes of our times, consulted for the White House, the State department, the Pentagon as well as dozens of Fortune 500 companies. He has served as a negotiation. Why can't I say it? Negotiation advisor and mediator in conflicts raging rage. Sorry people, this is very, very serious content and I'm butchering it. Mediator in conflicts ranging from Kentucky wildcat coal mine strikes to family feuds, from U. S. Partisan battles to wars in the Middle East, Colombia, Korea and Ukraine. William is an acclaimed speaker and has two popular TEDx talks with millions of views. And you live in Colorado and you love to hike the mountains where you don't have a lot of conflict to deal with when you're hiking, I'm sure. All right, now we know who you are. William, how did you get into this work of negotiation? Were you fascinated at an early age? I'm fascinated with how you did this.

Yeah, I've often thought of that question too. Kathy asked myself. And I think as a child I was fascinated. At the age of six, my family spent a year in Europe and it wasn't that long after World War II and you can kind of see the ruins of buildings in France, Germany and places like that and London even. And there was World War II, there'd been World War I, all the cemeteries and there was, even in the school I went to, there was a nuclear bomb shelter. So there was an expectation of World War iii. And, and as a child, I couldn't quite get my head around it, like, there must be a better way for us to deal with our differences than all this bloodshed. And then, you know, on a very micro level, in my family, I know, you know, there was ordinary kind of bickering at the. At the dinner table between my parents, which I found painful. And so I thought, you know, conflicts everywhere, just like you were saying. And, and so that became my kind of guiding question was how, as human beings, can we learn to deal with our differences constructively rather than destructively? How do we live together? And that's why I went into anthropology, because I thought anthropology might give me a kind of a lens into understanding human beings and how we got the way we are. And then that's. And I wanted to apply it very practically. And that's how I sort of came into the field of negotiation of. As a methodology for dealing with conflicts openly and creatively and collaboratively rather than destructively.

And I. I find it so interesting what our childhoods lead us to do and be. And now that I've interviewed a lot of people and. And the same is true of me. So much of what we experience in a painful way in childhood or the thing that puzzles us, that makes us say, what's going on here? I don't get it. And no one can actually give us the answer we're really looking for because it's probably not there yet until you do the work. It's just fascinating to me. Walt, we're grateful that you are doing the work. Now tell. Tell us why you have getting to yes. You. You've been a co author of other books, have you not?

Yeah. And.

Yeah.

Yeah. Getting past the next book was getting past. No. Negotiating with difficult people. And then there was the power of a positive no, because I realized I had to do justice to the word no, which is a really important word for standing up for ourselves. And, And. And a host of other book. My last book, actually, before this, before possible, was Getting DS with yourself and other worthy opponents.

Oh, I love it. Because we are often. I did not read that book. Shame on me. But we are often in the way of getting to yes, aren't we? Personally, deeply, spiritually, we're in the way somehow, aren't we?

That may be. Kathy, My biggest realization since co authoring getting to yes is that the single biggest obstacle to me getting what I want and what I need, what I desire in life isn't actually the difficult person on the other Side of the table, as difficult as they may be. It's right here. It's myself.

Oh, gosh, tell us more, tell us more.

It's the person I look at in the mirror every day because, you know, negotiation is goal oriented behavior trying to get to a certain objective. But what I've noticed in myself and in others is we often act in ways that go exactly contrary to what will actually get us what we want. And the reason is, is that as an anthropologist, I know this. You know, we human beings, we're reaction machines. And you know, as the saying goes, when angry, you will make the best speech you will ever regret.

Oh, that's good.

And, and that happens, you know, whether or not we, you know, we fall into what I would call the kind of the 3A trap. And all of us have a certain propensity, but it's like some of us have propensity to avoid, you know, to avoid conflict. I kind of grew up, I was a little bit avoidant of conflict. And others accommodate, you know, they just give in and others yet attack, you know, and sometimes we, often we do all three. You know, we'll, we'll avoid for a while, then we'll accommodate, then we get frustrated and then we lose it on the attack. We snap and we just go around in a circle like a, like a mouse in a maze. And, and for me, the choice that I kind of try to lay out impossible is why not do the opposite of avoiding, which is to actually paradoxically embrace the conflict, meet it and transform it. In other words, we, we're not going to be able to get rid of all the conflict because conflict is around, it's natural. As you were saying, it could even be healthy and productive. How do we transform it? How do we change the form from destructive, vicious fighting that destroys relationships, resources, even lives into constructive, honest, vulnerable, transparent communication, creative collaboration, and really try to get to the bottom of it in a way that can help us grow and help our relationships grow.

At that. That's a lifelong master class, is it not? Because. What? No. I have so many questions. Reign them in. Kathy, what I thought you might be saying and this, this gets into one of your comments, is you actually posit that we need more conflict, not less. But, but I. Not. But I think that the way we define the word conflict, the connotation and the denotation, it's conflict. It's, it's the way I write about power that I'm helping women embrace and men. Positive power, positive influence. But the word power to women often Means harsh, critical, abusive. So it's how we're defining it. But I want to ask you this because this is what really strikes me. You said we have to get to. Yes, ourselves. And then you. You describe that. What if we embraced conflict? But then that's about the how, isn't it? It's it like, let's say you and I really disagree over something politically, whatever the how of it, the how we're going to engage with each other is going to make or break if there's any resolution or any agreement or any wish to agree. Right, but is there ever a situation where, even before the way the people or the countries go about engaging in it, they themselves do actually not want a resolution to the conflict? Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Absolutely. I mean, that's more often the case than one would think, and particularly nowadays. I mean, we live in a time when conflict is intensifying, it's increasing. It's polarizing us as a country, it's polarizing us as a. As a world. It's. It's often poisoning even our relationships. It's toxic sometimes, and it paralyzes us from doing what we need to do to solve the problems around us and around the world.

What is that? What would you say in one sentence that we need to do to solve the problem?

Well, what we need to do, I'm just saying anything. Whether it's the. Whether it's creating a vibrant democracy, whether it's creating a vibrant society, whether it's feeding people, whether it's hunger, whether it's climate, any issue you take in the world. The thing is, if I was a Martian anthropologist, you know, looking down, and I would say, wow, this species, they have a paradise down there on the planet, and they have amazing, abundant resources and technology and intelligence, and they can communicate with each other. And their only problems really are problems that they themselves create. So if they themselves create it, they can uncreate it. Right? And that's why that's the message of possible, is that this is not like an asteroid about to hit us. This is something that we can actually do something about with leadership, with the kind of courageous, brave leadership that you talk about in your podcast. That's what's needed right now and applied to conflict.

So we're going to walk through the pathways that you've articulated in your book. But before we do that, two things. You're an anthropologist, so I think you can answer this better than most. I'm 63 years old, proud of it. But it feels like in my life, the US has become more polarized, more toxic, more hateful. Less empathy, less talking, more screaming, more hatred. From an anthropologist standpoint, is that actually accurate? Or. I mean, I often read other people saying nonsense. We've been conflict ridden like this for millennia. It, is it more conflict ridden? You know, from the way we measure that right now.

You know, it's, it's hard to measure, but I would certainly agree with you. I can't remember a time in my lifetime when, you know, maybe you'd have to go back to the 60s, but, but the, when light, when conflict is as present and pervasive and imperiling. Everything that we hold dear, from our families to our workplaces, to our communities to, to our world. And, and part of it is sure, is perception is the fact that now with the new media with which you communicate, their algorithms actually which want engagement, excess feed you conflict. They want more conflict. They make profit from conflict. So, so you get a sense that there's more conflict than there probably is. At the same time, it's, you know, my field is often, you know, I've, my passion is working on trying to prevent wars. And there, there's more. If I look around the world, I work on Ukraine, the Middle East, Korea, I mean, all at once, I don't think I've seen an international geopolitical situation or politically in our country when there's been more kind of toxic polarization at the same time. What's interesting, because you're asking me as a kind of, as a social scientist to think about this. The interesting thing is still, even given all of that, the majority, the great majority of Americans, there's a term for them, it's called the exhausted majority. Because what you're hearing is from the extremes on both ends of the political spectrum. The great majority of Americans still believe, still believe that Americans have more in common than we have indifferent. And the majority of Americans still believe in the importance of reaching out to their neighbor or who might have a different opinion. So there's still that potential there. It's obscured by all the fights in the media, but there's still that potential. And that's, that's what the new kind of courageous leadership that we're going to need to help us get out of this mess can draw on that, that, that, that I think that common sense and common decency in human beings in this country and elsewhere listen to you for hours.

There's so much to learn. All right, we're going to dig in here about. I think we've Talked about why it seems so destructive and I'm so fascinated. Like when you're working with countries to avoid war, you're working with their leadership. Their leaders. Right. What a, what an honor. And what a. What's the biggest thing? Let's just go macro and then dive in. When countries are fighting there, are they fighting about the same things? Humans are fighting humans, they are human people. Citizens are fighting about what I want, what I value, what's important to me, what we think is. Oh, there we are. I cut out.

Can you for just one second? Okay, I can hear you just fine.

Going back to do. Countries fight about pretty much the same categories of things that citizens fight about.

You know, there are major differences. I don't mean to say it's exact same thing, but from my point of view as an anthropologist, yes, the, the, they're fighting about, you know, security, they're fighting about economic well being, you know, the basic human drivers. They're, they're fighting out of fear, they're fighting out of, you know, contest for power or status or recognition and you know, and all of those things. The macro reflects the micro and the micro reflects the macro. For me, it's, I mean the wonderful thing that I've loved about my, my, my work over the years is, you know, I, I work in the micro and even when you go in working with leaders, you're working in the micro. They're, you know, this, their psychology, their personal psychology, you know, so often it's this, I find the same dynamics, whether it's in a family or an organization, in a nation, in the world, because we're all human beings and we all, you know, no matter how different we might seem, we all have the basic same human needs, you know, and that in that lies promise too. If we can get down to that level and realize, you know, what, you know, I mean, just take, you know, the Middle east, which right now is like this. Focus. No, both sides, all sides. What do they want? They want safety, they want dignity, they want to be able. And, and, and if we're going to get through a conflict like that, it's going to find a way to live side by side, giving people human beings, satisfying their basic human needs.

You make it sound very simple. I would love to be in a negotiation where you come in and help. It's probably simple but not easy. Right?

That's, that's it. This, this, I mean the paradox is it's simple, but this can be some of the hardest work you can ask human beings to do. I mean, as we know in our own situations, you know, to, to listen to people with whom you disagree or when there's been trauma, you know, people, you know, where you. You've been, you know, as there is, then it's. You really, it takes, it's not easy to listen, it's not easy to sit down. It's not easy to work through these things. But when you do, as I've seen time and again in different parts of the world and in different parts of this country, there is a. There's a feeling of breakthrough, of, of. I mean, it's almost a spiritual, like, wow. There's a. It's funny how adversaries, when they break through, they. It's, it's electric, it's. And actually in a very strange way, it's playful and it can even be. There's a lot of laughter, oddly enough.

Release, release, release and release, psychic release. I also, you know, not to get woo woo. I think it's a spiritual endeavor. Meaning. I don't mean religious. I mean, if we think we're more than this, this.

Yeah.

And there's something more at play, like our spirits wishing for collaboration when our ego and our reptilian brain won't let it happen. I don't doubt that there's laughing and crying and a big release. Oh my gosh. Okay, now let's get down to what do we do, William, what do we do? What are your pathways? Where do we begin? Here, when we're having. And is it helpful for people to bring in mind the biggest conflict they're having with someone right now?

It is very helpful. So think about some, bring to mind some conflict. It could be, you know, with a child or a partner or colleague or co worker, or could be in the community. Whatever, whatever, whatever skill you want. And think about, wow, okay, it seems hard. You can think of all the obstacles in the way, you know, you know, there's distrust, there's suspicion, there's, um, there's fear, there's anger, you know, you name it. There, there's baggage from the past. There might even be trauma. You know, it's just, you know, it's, it's, it's. It seems almost you know, it doesn't seem easy at all. It might even seem intractable or even impossible. Like I could never, you know, and, and this is, this is where I've really spent my life being curious about. Because my motto is meet animosity with curiosity. And really. So I've seen this with my own eyes, whether it's in, you know, Whether it was in South Africa during the race wars between blacks and whites, or, you know, in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants, the sectarian wars, or more recently in Colombia, where, you know, hundreds of thousands had died, millions of victims, in a kind of war between kind of rich and poor. It was around social justice and things. And I've seen humans at their worst. But I've also seen humans at their best in these things. And I've watched how in seemingly impossible situations, people have risen to the challenge. And what I've tried to do, impossible is lay out what I see us doing, which is actually awakening our own human potential. It's right here. It's not some magic, and it's not even a magical person like myself showing up. It's within us all the time. Question is, how can we unlock that potential? And there are basically three kinds of potential that we can unlock, that if we can unlock all three, then we have a chance to transform these seemingly impossible situations into creative, productive conversations that can lead to transformed relationships.

All right, let us have them. What are these three?

Okay, the first one, the first potential is it's an inside job. You know, the thing I've learned is, yeah, as we were saying before, we are our own. I'm my own worst enemy. So, because human beings are reaction machines. And so the first thing is to do the exact opposite of reacting, which is to pause, just even for a microsecond, breathe, and go to what I. I use the metaphor of go to the balcony. It's almost like what's happening in front of you that you're involved in. Take your conflict. You know, you're there, someone else is there. You're all on characters, on the stage. Part of you goes to a mental and emotional even, perhaps even a spiritual balcony, some place of calm and perspective where you can keep your eyes on the prize. What is it that is most important here in the family situation? What is the most. With a child, what's the most important thing to you in that moment? And then you can sort of zoom into that, you know, and really figure out what's most important to you, what's most important to them, maybe, and then zoom out and see the bigger picture, like from the balcony and say, now, through this labyrinth, how am I going to find a way through this relationship here? That ability to step back and go to the balcony is a human superpower. We all have it. We all have our favorite ways of doing it, and we just need to hone it and develop it. You know, it might be to Just in the moment, pause, breathe. Or it might be. Take a break. It might be. Have a conversation with a good friend. It might be. I love to go for walks in nature. I find that's really calming, inspiring, you know, the views and. But whatever is. What's your favorite way of going to the balcony? Let me ask you.

I love it. It is walking in nature. And I read that the reason we feel better in many ways is when you're at the ocean, it's so vast and we're so small, and we're reminded of that. Right. Or when I'm with trees or by the water, my energy shifts. It's almost automatic. And it gives, I think, perspective. Are you also, when you talk about the balcony, I think of it in my mind as almost like we're watching our life on a video, that we're detached. Is that. Is detachment part of it? That get out of the maelstrom of it?

Exactly. Gets a little bit of, you know, psychologists call it perspective taking. You know, it's kind of just get a little bit out of your situation and watch yourself as if you're an actor in that play now. It doesn't mean suppressing your emotions. When you get detached like that, you can actually understand yourself better. You can actually listen to yourself. And this is the funny thing is, you know, because the next step is the bridge of which, of course, the ability to listen to others, like you do as a therapist, for example. But the reason why I find it so hard for people, for people to listen to others in difficult situations is they haven't listened to themselves first. They haven't understood and paid attention to their own emotions and thoughts. And that's what you can do on the balcony with that detachment. You can actually observe yourself, you know, Let me give you an example.

Yes, please.

You were talking about, you know, you know, working with presidents. Well, some years ago, I was working in the country of Venezuela, and there were a million people on the streets demanding the immediate resignation of the president, Hugo Chavez. There were a million people on the streets supporting him. There was violence, there was fear of civil violence, maybe even a civil war, intense polarization in the country. And I met with him. President Carter had asked me to meet with him, and I met with him. And one time I met with him, it was at midnight, and he had his entire cabinet arrayed behind him. And he said, so, Yuri. He called me Yuri. He said, yuri, what do you think of the situation here? And I said, well, Mr. President, I've been talking to a few of your Ministers here, and I've been talking to leaders of the opposition and I believe actually they're making a little bit of progress. Well, that's not the word he wanted to hear. He said, what progress are full. You third parties know nothing. You can't see the dirty tricks those traitors on the other side are up to. And he proceeded to lean very closely into my face and shouted me. I could actually, you know, almost. I could he feel his breath, you know, his hot breath for approximately 30 minutes. And, you know, and I at that moment was like, oh, wow, okay, I've been working here for a year. All that works down the drain. I'm embarrassed in front of the whole cabinet, you know, going through all that. What am I going to say in response to defend myself?

Then what?

Then I caught myself for a moment. You know, I was, I, A friend of mine said, you know, when you're in a tough situation, pitch the palm of your hand. I said, why? And he said, because that will give you a momentary pain, it'll keep you alert. So I did that and I just like, oh, okay. And I noticed from the balcony all my feelings that gave me that little bit of detachment. So I didn't need to react in that moment. And I could ask myself instead, is it really going to advance things if I get into an argument with the president of Venezuela? And so I decided to bite my tongue and just listen to him and.

Okay, then what happened?

Well, this is what's interesting is because I was listening, I noticed, you know, this is a guy who could give seven hour speeches. I wasn't giving him anything to react to. I was just kind of looking attentively like, you're looking at me right now.

You diffused it. Basically. He, he balloon went right with curiosity.

I was like, you know, I was, I was nodding my head and you know, like, tell me more. Because I'd been able to influence myself from the balcony, then I was able to start to build a bridge, a connection with him.

What did you say? To connect with him.

And so I said, this is what happened is I was watching him and just kind of with curiosity. And then at some point, I watched his shoulders sink, his body language. And in a weary tone of voice, he said to me, yuri, what should I do now? That Kathy?

Oh, that makes me cry. Yeah, I mean, that says a lot about him too. Yeah, you know, I mean, a pure dictator narcissist autocrat does not ask that question. Correct.

Right, right.

So.

And he.

He, what should I do?

What should I do?

And so what did you say?

That is the faint sound of a human mind opening. It's. It's an opening. And that's what I listened for in those moments. I'd Looking for, where are these little cracks of opportunity? And so I said, you know, Mr. President, it's December. It's almost Christmas time. I'd been on the streets. I'd saw the haggard faces, the tense faces of everyone on the streets. No one was in a mood to celebrate Christmas with their families. I said, why don't you just give everyone a break, a truce, you know, in Spanish, it's a tregua. You know, just for three weeks. Just let everyone enjoy the holiday with their families. And then in January, we can come back and maybe people will be in a better space to be able to listen to each other. Well, he looked at me for a moment, didn't say anything, and he said, you know what? That's an excellent idea. I'm going to propose that my next speech. And he clapped me on the back.

And that was it. So you did not have to solve the world's problems in that moment.

I didn't.

There is so much about what you shared that you did extraordinarily well. I mean, you don't need me to tell you that. But you were calm. You didn't react the way the reptilian brain acts, defending yourself. I'm going to look foolish. I gotta fix this. You pinched yourself. To give you that breath, you let him speak for as long as he needed to until he exhausted himself and somehow he saw in you someone he could. This is interesting. Someone he could ask advice from. Why did he. Why do you think? Aside from all these things we just dissected, why do you think he felt that?

Well, because I.

He trusted you somehow.

He trusted me because I had not reacted. I'd not taken the bait, you know.

And you had not advised first.

You got it. That's.

You know, women. I don't mean to paint anyone with the same brush, but women often laugh that they'll tell their husband a problem and the husband will often just jump in and fix. And I myself have said, I don't need your fixing. I'm able to fix. I need to talk. Right. Am I making sense? You let him do it.

You know, it's so interesting you should say that, Kathy, because just before that, I'd been down in Brazil, and there I heard a song, and the song had a line in it that just struck me, which was, do not give advice to those who are not open to Receiving it, you know, and, and, and it was like, I wish everyone.

Would hear that 17 times.

And you know, because, you know, it's so interesting because that's so. I, I took that really to heart and I didn't give him advice until he asked for it.

I'm shocked that he got to that place. That's. What a story.

Yeah.

But now I'm going to push back and challenge because we need help. I think what you're talking about is self mastery that you had it, you who do this work.

I'm developing it and I'm still working on it. It's a lifelong practice.

If you said you had all of it that you need, I'd say, oh boy, we got a little narcissism going on. But how do I want to ask this question and I want to hear you have, you know, the bridge and then that's your second. And then there's a third pathway. But this is what I want to say. All of this requires more emotional awareness, more. I don't like the word control in any way, but mastery, mastery of yourself, mastery like in this situation. You're not Venezuelan, so maybe you are a little more detached than if you were meeting with the leaders of our country. Maybe you have strong feelings either way. But we have to in order to address conflict productively. We can't be losing control of ourselves constantly. Would you agree with that statement?

Absolutely.

I mean, well, what do you tell people when they're not able to do that? They're not. Well, you know, they don't have self mastery. What do you do then? Well, you mind me asking?

No, not at all. Very. I mean, this is a lifelong study for all of us. Right. And you know, no matter how good we get it, we can fall so the. So and particularly in the difficult situations that we face that we increasingly face. This is why to me, you know, when getting the yes was about building a bridge. But you know, and it's great, it's necessary. It was. But I come to realize, and this is what I, this is what I posit impossible, is that we need more than that. We need the self mastery that you're talking about. In other words, if we want to influence others, which is what getting the yes is about and what negotiation is about, we first need to learn how to influence ourselves. And even that, as you mentioned, is hard to influence ourselves in those situations. And this is why we need the third leg of the, of the stool here, which is we need help. We have to realize that in conflict, we, you know, Especially when things get heated, we tend to reduce everything to me versus you, us versus them, two sides. And what we fail to realize is, in fact, there's always a third side, which is the friends, the neighbors, the relatives, the co workers, the colleagues, the community around us that's affected by the conflict, and that actually is a resource for us. I call that the third side. You know, in other words, there's a third side in every conflict. And because it's hard for us to, to master ourselves in, in thing, we need to engage the third side to create a container, a safe container, like a therapist. The merit. You're a marriage counselor and, you know, kind of, it's like you provide that third side, that container. You may not say a word, but you provide a container within which the partners can then begin slowly to transform their conflict and the community can play that role. And so part of the art is you need to go to the balcony, you need to build the bridge, and you need to engage the third side. You need all three all at once if you're going to have your best chance at taking an impossible situation and making it possible.

There's so much there. Oh, you know, I think about people I know in my life or my career, coaching clients or whomever who will not see a therapist, who will not get outside help, they won't do it. Or they say, I've been to seven and they're all terrible. That's not possible. That all seven are, you know, sure, a few, but it points to. If you will not seek the community aspect of it, what you're going to do is you're setting it up to remain closed. You can't even almost get to the balcony. You're just thinking about your own. I don't need help. I don't need to hear what his view is. Well, you're really cutting yourself off at the knees, right? Am I making sense?

You're making perfect sense. And the, the thing is, if you're in that point of view, you're clearly not on the balcony. And, and, and those, if you can recognize that, oftentimes we recognize it the hard way because we get into a. You know, because you get in these conflicts and you think you're going to win. And guess what? Everybody loses, right? Not just the, not just the two people, but the kids, the family, the surroundings, the company, whoever it is, everybody loses in these things. And so, and that's actually the incentive for the community, those around who say, hey, we're affected by this. This affects us too. And so Those people who are close to you can serve as your balcony. You know, even if you're a professional, I don't know, hostage negotiator, they never negotiate alone. Because in those situations, when someone's life is at stake, your buttons get pressed, you get drawn, you get identified in it. You need to have a partner who serves as your balcony. So ask yourself, who is my balcony in these tough situations? How do I construct it? How do I recruit it so that I can actually navigate my way and have the best chance of success?

This so much, I have to let you go. But I have to ask two things. Who's your third? Who's your community? When you're talking to the president of Venezuela, who is your community?

Well, I wasn't there alone. There was. I had a couple of colleagues I.

See standing right there with you. Standing.

Yeah, well, they were. Yeah, they were nearby. Exactly. You know, I. That's why I don't try to do all this alone and take it all on myself. And in the end, too, I mean, I'll tell you one thing was going into that situation, it's so easy. There's all this kind of everything. It's. You get so, you know, you go, you know, the presidential palace to get in. There's people beating on the car, and there's thousands of people. So there's so much tension. I try to take a little time beforehand by myself to either meditate or sit in a garden and just kind of like, compose myself so I can prepare myself for that. But I also use as a. In the image, the third side being, like, for me, was a child, a Venezuelan child, like, what's their future? That's what this is all about. And I try to kind of visualize and imagine that and saying, that's. That's the. That's the symbol of the whole.

That's so beautiful. Oh, my gosh, I could talk forever. Now, the final question here. Is there any other thing from your book or your work that you think people really are blowing? They're real. Wow. Like, yikes. You're really not getting it, folks. I. That's not you. I mean, you're so. I do want to also ask you. You have such a joyful way about you. And to be honest, before this call, I. I had an assumption that you'd be kind of a stern person. Isn't that funny? But you're joyful. You. If we watch the video, you're smiling the entire time. Does that joy infuse your work? Do you think that. Can you Tell us about that. So maybe we can try to bring that out in us a little more.

It does, Kathy. I mean this is. The paradox is, as I mentioned as a boy, I used to worry about this stuff. But what I find is that when I turn towards it and I engage with the very thing that I fear and I move into it, oddly enough, there's a lightness, there's a joy, there's a, there's even. I believe that in order to enhance our potential to deal with conflict, we need to, we need to tap into the power of play and there's creativity. We need to bring our maximum curiosity, our maximum creativity, our maximum collaboration if we're going to have a chance here. And that's. You know, someone once said to me, if you've got something really hard to do, relax first, take a moment to relax, you know, and that's what we need to do. We need to kind of. It's a paradox. But the more serious the conflict, the more relaxed we need to do if we're going to bring our full potential to, you know, just like you in music, art, anything you bring, you play. That's what brings out the highest human potential. That's what we're being invited to do. That's what the book Possible is about, is about inviting us to apply our own innate human potential to these very tricky, difficult, painful sometimes situations.

The way I'm going to leave that, tell me if I'm right or wrong when we do that. And you know, I sing on the side, I play tennis. These things are life changing for me. I mean they're not just fun little habits. They, you know, singing, lifting your voice with others. Oh, I levitate. But tell me if I'm wrong. I think when we play whatever way you want to, when we laugh, when we relax, we're actually bringing out our innate problem solving ability, our innate greatness. And we're not letting that amygdala, that's the word, isn't it? The, the fear based mind take over, that there really is more greatness and more ability in each of us than we're tapping into. Is that right?

I could not agree more. That's certainly been my experience.

I feel like this is. Have you done a masterclass? You know, the masterclass. Well, I wish I had a connection for you because everybody I know would scoop that up anyway. Where do we find all about you? Where do we get the book? Where do we learn more? William, tell us.

Well, the book will be wherever books.

Are in your local bookstore, Amazon, etcetera.

Amazon, all that stuff. And you know, my website has a little more information if you want to go to it. It's just my name, William urie.com. that's Ury, William Ury.

We'll link to it below.

And, and yeah, I just really want to just leave your listeners with just the message that we can do this. You can do this. It's, you know it and it, it's exactly what you do on this podcast. It's finding the brave in us to engage sometimes joyfully, if possible, with these really difficult conflicts that are arising all around us. And if we can do that, if we can transform those conflicts, we can transform our lives and we can transform our world.

That is so beautiful. And I think I needed to hear this more than even my listeners. Thank you, William. What a gift you are to our world. Thank you for helping Dig dig in here, right? Writing this incredible book and helping us see that we can do this. We can. Don't give up. Go to the balcony right now. Get your community, build the bridge. Thank you again. Thank you. All right, everybody. Oh, it's so fun, people. You know, I say it, but I'm going to say it again. If you don't have a question about this, I give up. I mean, I hope that you listen deeply and you think, now wait a minute. I want to engage in this, but I'm confused. I'm not sure how to do it. I'm failing. And we would love to hear from you. Wherever you see this, please share it, please like it, and please post a question or a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Until then, wow. I'll meet you on the balcony and have a wonderful two weeks and we will see you next time. Thank you again, William. Hi, folks. Kathy here. So are you thinking about launching a new podcast or have you been at it a while? And recognize it's time for more, more or better production help to create the best podcast you can. I totally understand. I've been podcasting for over six years and I know how challenging it can be. That's why I'm really excited to share some key information about the great production team I'm using now called We Edit Podcasts. I've been working with them for well over a year and I've been so happy with the results. They're a full service production agency and their services give me access to a wonderful team of seasoned audio engineers and editors who, who help create a polished professional sound and they work hard to ensure that my particular podcasting approach and style comes through in every episode. They also help me make sure that my guests are reflected in the best possible light through the creation of terrific show notes, which is an important part of the show for me. Their process is easy and streamlined, and their responsiveness and customer service is terrific too. If you're ready for better production help, definitely check them out and take advantage of their free trial episode, allowing you to sample their processing quality to see if it's a great fit for you. I'm confident you'll love them. Just go to the link we edit podcasts.com finding brave. That's my special link for you, and book your free call today. Happy podcasting. Thanks so much for joining us today. And please don't forget to check out finding brave.org for more programs, resources, and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of Finding Brave.