279: Dramatically Boost Your Interviewing Success Critical Dos and Donts with Anna Papalia

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Call on April 3rd. Thanks so much. Here we go. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. You are seeing this in middle mid March. Hallelujah. I gotta tell you this has been a long winter and it's sunny here and beautiful and I am so excited to talk to my amazing inspiring guest today, Anna Papalia. Anna, thank you for taking time to be with me. I know things are very busy.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very, I'm looking forward to it.

I cannot wait to dig in and people we are talking about. Oh I don't even have the correct title here, but basically we are talking about interviewing and how to debunk the old myths and essential do's and don'ts. This is, this is information everybody who has a career needs to know. You know, I just published, I have a LinkedIn newsletter and it was about what the, the traits of people who get raises and higher compensation and boy does this dove tell. Well and one of the issues is you need to be interviewing a lot and you need to be interviewing regularly and not just, you know, stay in a job eight years. But your, your material is so spot on and so important. So thank you again everybody. I'm going to tell you about Anna and then we're going to dive into her amazing new book and you're going to tell us what we don't understand properly about interviewing.

Yeah, love to.

Here we go. Let me get off my glasses. And the Papalia is the author of here's the new amazing book Interviewology the New Science of Interviewing. And she's a career influencer with now almost 2 million followers on social media, which I'm so envious of. And boy do I love your material. I, I see you mostly on Instagram and Tick Tock and boy is it fantastic. But it's Everywhere, on Facebook, etc. LinkedIn too. She has consulted with Fortune 100 companies, taught at Temple University's Fox School of Business and coached over 10,000 clients to interview better packed with wisdom. And I can attest to this. Interviewology offers clarity and a dynamically scientific, dynamic, scientifically validated approach that challenges everything you thought about interviewing, providing unique insights into the process and as we said, data debunking the most common myths and explaining how you can perform better in these interviews, whether you're applying for a job or the flip, looking for a great candidate.

There we go.

All right, let us, let us dive in. You know, you, we discussed in advance some of these questions, but I, I do want to know, first of all.

How did you get to be such.

An expert in this? Why this topic, in all of your career work with people? Tell me, tell us.

Sure. So I went to the University of Pennsylvania for psychology and I was pretty convinced that I was going to become a psychiatrist or psychologist. And I had my first internship in a behavioral health clinic. And on the first or second day I realized I hate this and this is not for me. And I realized pretty immediately that I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to, to help people become the best versions of themselves. And I thought originally that was through a therapeutic setting or behavioral health. And I, I just had this tug to do this in the corporate world and I knew a little bit of HR and I thought maybe that was it. I found my first HR generalist position as my second internship and I was really terrible at it. I was the world's worst HR generalist because you have to have this attention to detail and it's all know being very specific with things. And I, I, I was terrible. And randomly the corporate recruiter put a pile of resumes on my desk. She was really overwhelmed, had tons of positions she was recruiting for and said would you mind helping me with this? And I was like, yeah, wait, they're going to pay me to talk to people on the phone? Like, yeah, I would. I'm yes. This is amazing. And I was, it was love at first sight. And I knew immediately that I was really good at it. It was an intersection of my study in psychology and then this corporate world piece. And I was always so fascinated with work and it was just, it just took off. And I learned how to recruit there in that role. And then I went on to do some contingent recruiting which is where you really hustle. It's 100% commission. And I learned from two burnt out accountants that had left the big four and started their own recruiting firm. And they taught me everything. They me how to cold call. They taught me what candid, what good the good candidates did, what the bad candidates did, what resumes. Look all, all of this stuff. And then from there I went into a director. Well, I was a corporate recruiter. I got recruited to go in house ultimately. I then was promoted several times, became their director of talent acquisition. All of that to say that's how I fell in love with recruiting from my background in psychology. And I left my corporate role in 2011 because I just had this calling that I had a little bit of judgment fatigue. I loved my job, loved it so much. I had phenomenal boss, phenomenal executives, truly wonderful place. I left because I just got this calling in this tug, like I want to teach people how to do this. And this is really weird. Like nobody does this right? And I remember I quit my job. I told the president that I said I, I want to start my a business teaching people how to interview. Like I didn't have a business plan, I didn't have anything right. And he, he said you, you got moxie. That was literally like all I had. I didn't have a business plan. Whatever. Fast forward. A couple months later, the dean of Temple, Temple University's risk management department called, said you used to hire all of my students for your intern program that you created. Why don't you come in and teach them how to interview?

Oh wow.

Yeah. And in like a couple months I was then doing exactly what I wanted to do. Coaching and teaching people how to interview. So six days a week during the school year I was teaching three three hour interview skill workshops a week. Mock interviews, resume reviews, you name it. It was like getting a PhD in interviewing.

Wow.

And I did that for quite some time. And fast forward to sort of modern day. About four or five years ago I was asked to do a disrupt HR talk. And I told the story of getting into the University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League school in my college interview because I interviewed so well. And putting that together I realized, huh, maybe this is why I care about interviewing so much.

Because you did it so well and it opened doors you.

Well, not because I did it so well, but just because I know that an interview can change your life and that it anyone's life. And so that's the. The first chapter of my book is titled an interview can change your life for that reason because it changed mine. And I truly believe in the magic and power of it. Having been a hiring manager and a director on one side of the table and now for 10 years being a coach on this side, I believe so strongly in how powerful this moment is. I've dedicated my whole career to it. Now 20 years.

I just want to breathe in that story. You know, first of all, there's so much. We could just talk for 30 minutes about what you just said. But I think that's why I resonate so strongly with you. Did you know that I had a corporate career but then became a marriage and family therapist?

No.

And I have to tell you quickly, the three years of the Masters was the most enlivening, earth shattering training ever. A rape, incest, pedophilia, suicidal drug addiction. I mean I learned to sit with the most difficult things of human experience.

But it wasn't the right direction for me.

And so similarly I said what can I do with this? And then found coaching and then a certain niche of coaching helping mid to high level professional women. But I know that for instance self awareness in your work, we're going to talk about it. I mean there are so many therapeutic and behavioral principles and psychological principles that make our work different because it's deep, it's a deep thing. It isn't just look at a script about what to say. That's why when we Read so much on LinkedIn and everywhere else, other websites about how to do it. If you don't help someone to shift who they really feel they are and how they see themselves and how they communicate, it isn't going to go well. Would you agree with that?

Yeah. I say all the time that an interview specifically is a set of questions about you, and the more you know yourself, the better you'll do. And I think our job as coaches is to help people better align those two things. How do you see yourself? How do you get the world to see you? And that's my entire mission. That's. I wrote a scientifically valid interview style assessment. My whole goal in my entire platform, my book, the profile, everything that I offer is in hopes of getting people to better understand who they are so they can live in congruence and line up those things. You know, how you feel inside of yourself. Is that also what you're projecting? How many times have we left a meeting or an interview or a date or any situation with anyone and you think to yourself, I hope I came across the way I intended.

I hope, and I don't think I did, you know, right.

Or I hope I sounded good, or, you know, we all have this negativity bias and we think we're, you know, whatever. And that's, that's my, that's my job. That's what I do. That's what I hope that how I help people is to. And then therefore empower people and inspire people to, to feel better about who they are. And they, I never want anyone to feel like they have to pretend to be something they're not to get the job or to do this thing. I want, encourage people to be more authentic in this process. That's what the whole thesis of my book and my, my whole platform is all about.

I love it. And to be honest, I have a bias towards the depth of what you, what you offer. And if folks, not to be overly promotional, but if you need help, if it doesn't go deep, forget it. Buy the next book. You know, watch Anna's stuff. Wow. Thank you for sharing. I didn't know we had that parallel. I love that you got out of what you didn't like early. I waited a little too long. A lot too long. 22, 20 years too long. All right, so now tell us the heart of interviewology. What you know, if, if People only have 5 minutes to hear this, what is it you really want us to understand? And I know it's. It's deep and it's Based on your research, tell us, what's the biggest theme of it?

Sure. Well, it really started with my hypothesis, and I think it continues with people's intern biases, which is we all believe that everyone interviews like we do. We all inherently think that the way I do it is the way we should all do it, and the way I do it is the right way. Whether you failed at it or you're not great at, you still think your way is the right way.

You mean the way you show up and do an interview to get a job or the other way? The way I ask questions is how everyone asks questions.

Well, this is the other thing that I found in my, my research and my book is written to both job seekers and hiring managers. Your interview style, the way you show up in interviews is same as a job seeker or a hiring manager. And the interesting thing I found is that you, we all think that our way is the right way. So let me back up a little bit. When I was teaching, I was teaching for about six years, thousands of college students, I wrestled with this idea, why do some of them get this and the others aren't? You know? And I asked myself a critical question. What if we don't all do this the same way? What if I could write a personality assessment to discover someone's interview style so I can help people better meet them where they are? Figure that out first, because the problem I had was all of this advice out there tells people you've seen it a million times on LinkedIn or wherever. This CEO has the right question to ask. Right? Everyone has this silver bullet. And I really rejected all of that. I bought every interview prep book out there to, to do research and, and they always fall in these categories of memorize these perfect answers and you'll get the job. Just pretend to be something that you're not, or they're very specialized. And I thought we're missing the entire thing here. So in discovering this, I wrote this personality assessment. I, I studied it for years. I collected research, and I discovered that we interview in one of four unique ways. You interview as either a charmer, challenger, examiner, or harmonizer. And with this discovery, my hypothesis going in was I'm really great at interviews. I'm a natural. I got into my Ivy League school in my interview, and I spent 15 years in the corporate world. And I, I was always in the position of power. I, I know I had that attitude of all those articles. I know what you need to do.

To get a job.

So I assumed that I was going to discover Interview styles. And I was going to discover the style, and it was going to be mine, of course, naturally, because I'm amazing. And what I discovered is something that couldn't have been better. Number one, that I was dead wrong, which is really important. That's really good.

Not only is it good research, we're usually dead wrong, let's face it.

Yeah, it's really humbling, which is great. But also it broke open something in me that changed so simultaneously as I was collecting this research. I was having children, so I had my first son. And then when I was writing the personality assessment, I was pregnant with my second child, my daughter. And in the same way that having children breaks you open and makes you realize that, you know, there's. There's, you know, more people out there and other people look at things differently, and you have to open yourself up and be very vulnerable when you have children, I was really poised in this moment in my career to realize I was wrong. And the reason why some of my students wasn't getting the way I was teaching it was because they didn't do it like me. And I was also wrong because. And this is the best part. This is. This is. This. I will ruin my. The end of the book for you is that everyone. I collected all this data, and I then collected all this data of all my students that had gotten internships or jobs after graduation. And there wasn't one interview style that had cornered the market. There wasn't. Okay, all the charmers got all the offers. Everyone pretend to be charmers. No. The most amazing thing I found was that there was a normal distribution and all four interview styles have the capacity to nail the interview. And that our job offers were all over the board. And I was beyond surprised. I thought it was going to be something different, but also simultaneously incredibly inspired and motivated. And that's what motivates me in my messaging, when I build my platform, when I make videos on social media. It's. Just because someone does something differently doesn't mean that it's wrong. And we have to unpack interview performance with ability or their likelihood of being successful at a job, because we know that how someone performs in an interview is not a good indicator of future performance. What I wanted to do was unpack and give us a language. I had been in hundreds of debriefs with hiring managers who would say something like, you know, I mean, he was all right, but like, you know, I didn't really like him. What? Interviewing. The most important business decisions are made in interviews, and we don't have a language to talk about this. What I would rather someone say in a debrief is, you know, listen, I'm a harmonizer in interviews. I really prioritize getting along and getting along. And that candidate came in guns blazing, asking a ton of tough questions before we built rapport. And that rubs me the wrong way, but I can see that they'd be great at this job. That's a more productive conversation. And I felt like giving us a language to our approaches and interviews was more productive than telling people, I've got the right answer. Just memorize these answers and you'll get the job. It's not about that. What I discovered is charmers do it one certain way, challengers do it another way, examiners do it one way, and harmonizers do it another way. And that's the bigger conversation we need to be having. How do we all do it differently and how important it is that we all have each other. We need. We. Every team needs a charmer, challenger, examiner, and harmonizer.

All right, I got questions. I got so many questions.

Sorry, that was more than five minutes. Wow. Get me started.

Holy cow. I love it. I'm going to list out my questions. Go with the ones I have things to say. Sure. You know, again, when I have people on here who I don't know, but I admire their work, it always kills me how there are parallel. So I just want to say this. I came up with what I call the six dominant action styles. From what I've seen over 10 years of how people take action and why they choose a goal to pursue and how they pursue it, I just want to say it's striver, seeker, pacer, researcher, challenger, and advocator. And it's exactly like what you're talking about that you must know your style, because otherwise, you don't get what you're doing, and you don't get why you're unhappy or happy or connect with someone. But also, you need to know your style because you need to leverage it instead of going, what's going on here? Anyway? It's crazy how similar. But here's what I want to ask. If I am interviewing someone, and I guess I think I would say, what would I say? And I. I bet you get this question like I do. With the six action styles, I think we can straddle certain styles. I don't think we're all 100% one thing. You tell me if I'm wrong, but I'm probably a harmonizer and an examiner. I like to build Rapport. I like to help people feel comfortable, but I'm going to damn well examine what the heck you're telling me, and I'm going to dig in. I'm not going to challenge necessarily, but in the interview. But I'm going to say, huh, let me understand this. Here's my question. It strikes me that the reason all of these styles work is because you're interviewing all of these styles. You're interviewing people with all of these styles. So for instance, if I'm a harmonizer and examiner and I'm looking for five people on my staff, yes, I want different styles. But if you and I can't even have a conversation, that feels good to me, I don't think I want you on my team. You can be different in how you approach a problem, how you analyze data, but if I feel like, yikes, it's all about you being right, you feel like a narcissist to me, I'm not going to hire you. Is that one of the reasons why all four of these styles will work beautifully? Because there's all four of those styles and who's interviewing you?

Well, I actually think the majority of hiring managers hire their mini mes, right? I think the majority of people hire people who they're comfortable with because, you know, seeing somebody who's different and going, yeah, I want that on my team is. Is an evolved way of being and looking at things. We unfortunately like me so many years ago. So I'm a charmer in interviews. I'm highly extroverted. So I'll give you a little quick rundown, please. Charmers want to be liked in interviews. They want to make a connection. They like building relationships. Challengers want to be respected and heard. They feel constrained by integrity. They'll ask tough questions. They don't mind. They look at an interview like a cross examination. They really want to figure something out. They're highly skeptical of those charmers. Then we have examiners. Examiners look at interviews like a test that they are either going to pass or fail. They want to be seen as qualified. Charmers want to be liked. Examiners want to get it right. And then lastly, we have harmonizers. Harmonizers look at an interview like a tryout for a team that they want to join. They're always thinking about the collective, the. The we, the us. They very seldom talk about themselves, themselves or what they offer because they think of themselves in. In terms of a team, like the tryout for a team.

That's not me. Okay?

And so harmonizers are the opposite of challengers. You know, challengers put a stake in the ground. This is who I am, this is what I offer.

And so that's a challenger. Like, let me come in and tell you who I am. If I'm a fit with this, great. If not, I mean, not in that way, but that's a challenger. Okay.

Yeah. And challengers ask a lot of tough questions, whether they're job seekers or hiring managers. They want to figure something out. They're skeptical. Examiners are almost as skeptical, but they are more. I want to be seen as qualified. Now, to answer your previous question, there are four primary interview styles, but each has a variation. So you could be a charmer with harmonizer tendencies. You could be a charmer with challenger tendencies. You're one of 12 variation. I think that the majority of us hire and like people who are like ourselves. The way I confessed I did so many years ago, I was like, oh, well, you know, the best people that interview are going to be charmers like me. But that's not the case.

No. And doesn't it depend on the role?

Your interview style doesn't change depending on your role or, I mean, who I.

Want in the role. I might need someone who challenges like mad the one who. Or whatever word you term, but the person who digs in. Wait a minute, Kathy, I don't understand. Can you explain that? And how does that. That's going to be perfect for a particular role of mine, would it not?

You would hope. You would hope. That's another. That's an evolved trait of a. Of a good and successful hiring manager, that they think deeply about their job description and know what will be required. But the thing is, we all know we get swayed in interviews by certain things. We get swayed by beauty. We get swayed by similar experiences. The halo effect. We get swayed by a lot of things and we forget, oh, well, wait, I need a harmonizer in this role. But yeah, that charmer is really sexy in that interview. So I'm going to hire that person. We get swayed by a lot of this stuff. So, you know, that's one component of my book and my platform is like, what is the structural and technical things you do in the interviews? But like from a philosophical way of looking at this first, understanding what your style is so you can understand your biases. So as a charmer, I'm biased to other charmers. Right. My polar opposite is an examiner. What work do I have to do and how do I have to understand myself to know what those biases and barriers are? Right. So I can make better, more open minded decisions and be more curious rather than just thinking, oh, that that person was really quiet in the interview and they didn't really tell me anything about themselves and I didn't, couldn't make a connection with them. Next. That's an examiner. For me, that's how I would feel when I'm interviewing an examiner and unpacking performance, interview performance from like my opinion or how I feel and then thinking, well, is it required for the role? Is that's kind of like an evolved way of doing it. Right. It's, it's, it's the master class in.

It can each of these types, if it's important to me that my teammates are really cohesive, that they work beautifully together, they collaborate, they're great communicators. Can all of these styles be equally fantastic at that? If you get the right person? I mean, within these styles there's, there's a personality as well. I mean someone who's had a lot of trauma and been hurt and abused and sexually harassed comes at a job differently. I mean, we're not all the same. But can, you know, if I'm looking at collaboration, cohesiveness, great communication skills, can all of these styles do that?

Yes, absolutely. And it's understanding that it presents differently in interviews and I hope that's how people use this tool. Right. Charmers show that they're qualified by telling a story and maybe even a joke or paying a compliment. An examiner would never do that. An examiner goes into an interview wanting to be seen as qualified and they're going to talk about their work experience and they're not going to open up, but they're equally qualified to be successful at the job. It's just how they do it. You know, you could decide to paint your, your room. Any color, any paint is going to cover the walls. It's a style choice right at that point. So it's about understanding the nuances and also understanding that we get less out of our departments and teams and companies when it's a homogeneous group of people. If you have 10 charmers on your team, they're going to get along well famously. Right. They're going to all love each other, but there's going to be some shortcomings because we're not all great at everything. So we need diversity for so many reasons.

So I have, I know what your answer is going to be, but I want, I think, but I want people to hear it. I've heard people tell me that they were hired because they know the boss wanted someone who would be fun to go out for drinks with. I don't mean that alcoholically, but you know, I want someone who personality hire. That's it. Well, you know, we cringe at that because I do, I understand it, but it means you're surrounding yourself with people who are just like you, who like the same sports teams, who vote the same way, who tell us point blank why that is not a good idea, will you please?

Well, it's group think if you want to. I mean, I think most people hire that way. I, I've been consulting hiring managers, large companies, CEOs, small businesses, large businesses, thousands of people. And I think most people hire from a place of trying to find people that they're comfortable with because they think it's easier to manage someone who's like them. They can, you know, leverage their friendship or it's easier they, they want to get along with people and they miss the entire point of it. Right. There's great research that says that if you're in a homogeneous group of people, meaning same age, same race, same gender, our human brains tell us that we're going to share all kinds of things about ourselves because we're really comfortable with these people, because they're just like us. But actually the research doesn't bear that out. The research tells us that when you're in a group that's like you, a homogeneous group of people, you overemphasize the things you have in common. So not a great thing to do if you need someone to push back or you're trying to be creative or innovative, you need differing viewpoints. So the same research goes on to prove out that if you add a young person or a person of color or a different gender to that very group, people all share things that are unique because they, they feel as though they can because they don't have to overemphasize the qualities that they have in common. So that's how you break group think. That's also how you come up with creative and innovative solutions. So if your goal in your company or department is to just keep things of the status quo and never rock the boat and don't do anything creative or innovative and don't ever solve any problems, sure, go ahead and hire 10 more of you. I always tell hiring managers, we don't need another you, we have you. I need, we need other people for all these reasons. That is the hardest thing to get over though, in the hiring process for hiring managers. It's because it's a hard psychological heuristic thing to break because we think, oh, well, I'm good at my job, I'm successful, so I'm going to hire someone like me, just like I did all those years ago. I'm going to find the right people that are successful. They're going to interview like me. I'm going to find the style. No, we all have the capacity.

This is so darn important. And I want to say this, and I'd love your thoughts.

To do what.

You'Re suggesting requires self mastery, emotional growth, leadership, vision, strength, courage. I'm sorry to say it, unless you've done a lot of work on yourself, this is not who you're going to be. I'm sorry, I'm being blunt. I don't mean, I don't mean what you're sharing isn't great. I mean everything I put out there as well. I'm asking you to be a different person. I'm asking you for a breakthrough. Be a different person before this call than how you are after this call. I'm not messing around because it isn't easy. Especially for instance, conflict. How you deal with conflict. If you're on my team and I don't agree with you, or you're my boss and I don't agree with you, if the way you handle conflict is different from the way I do, we're going to have challenges unless we commit to working through our differences. Tell me what you think about all that.

Yeah, I think it would be great if it was really easy and it was like those articles said that it was like, oh, here's the silver bullet, you know, I would be a billionaire if I had the answer. And as I wrote my 13 chapter book and collected thousands of hours of research, I realized actually this gets more complicated the more you think about it.

I like that you say that there's.

More nuance, like, and I, I really bristle at all of the marketing that's like, you just do this one thing and you figure it out. It's a really good full circle conversation here. It goes back to the beginning. What we were talking about is self awareness. And therefore you will never reach self mastery until you understand who you are. At the beginning, I wanted to create a profile and something that allowed people, they read it and they go, oh my gosh, this is exactly me in an interview. How did you do this? I, I didn't know other people did this. I feel so validated right now. You know, as a coach, the only way you're going to get someone to make that Transformation is to first understand who they are, to meet them where they are, to help them build that self mastery, that understanding, that self knowledge and then they get to mastery and.

To know that they're not wrong. Not to make them wrong.

Yeah, it's not. And that is something that came from wisdom and years and years of coaching. For me, I was, I had a chip on my shoulder when I was younger and I did. I, I definitely thought this was the way to do it, right and wrong. And through all of this I realized it isn't right or wrong, it's styles. Right. Just like your, your matrix that you created. Right. It's, it's, it's not. When I was younger I'd be like, oh, that, that person's wrong. No, they're just doing it differently. And that comes from my own self awareness of knowing what I prefer, my biases, my preferences, and then knowing that other people have preferences that are opposite of mine and it doesn't make them right or wrong. And then from there we can all evolve together. There's no, there's no right or wrong answer to this. It's, it's complicated and it's difficult.

I so love it. I will, I will say, you know, people are going to hear you and then they might see my LinkedIn newsletter today on the five traits of people that tend to make more money and tend to get advancement. And I do need to just say this. These traits don't necessarily guarantee, oh, tomorrow I'm going to demonstrate this trait and I'm going to make another 30,000. It means people who have, who tend to be more positive rather than negative in the way they speak, in the way they present issues or people that see the future vision of themselves and don't just look at here and now tend to develop their skills in a forward way. Do you understand what I mean? So, but, but by no means do I ever want to say this is the magic bullet. It's, it's a way of giving people more food for thought about who are they, how does it, how is this working for them? Because sometimes how we are doesn't end up working for us too well.

Oh, most of the times, I mean, let's be honest, there's so many times when we're getting in our own way and you crave a mirror or a coach or someone to help you and say, you know, you missed the mark there a little bit. But I get what you're doing. In my book, at the end of every chapter I write about how each interview style has strengths. And what I call overused strengths, I don't call them weaknesses. I think weaknesses are just your overused strength. You just overdo something. Right. As a charmer, I really rely on being liked and making a connection, but that can go too far. I can be seen as a chameleon, say whatever they want to hear. Or you can be seen as someone who's an empty suit. She's friendly but like did she get anything done in her job? Right. So if you do it too much, it becomes an overused strength which you can call a weakness.

I love it. I love it. Boy, do you give us food for thought. Now we only have a few more minutes, Anna, can you give us just a few more? Well, you haven't given these yet. Not more do's and don'ts as much as you can. I mean what I love is you're because of your all your experience in training, a new behavioral science view.

It's all nuanced.

There's very little that's, you know, just a hundred percent this way. But I'm, I'm guessing there are a few things that don't do this in the interview. Just don't. Are there in your view?

Yeah, I would say there's two golden rules that I tell everyone. My book is written to both job seekers and hiring managers, so I'll give one for each. For job seekers, no matter what your interview style, you will always, always be benefited by facilitating your self knowledge and practicing and thinking deeply about these questions ahead of the interview. I have had, I've met with thousands of clients and sometimes some people tell me I don't want to practice beforehand. I don't want to sound too scripted. I'm just going to tell you right now that as an excuse you're telling yourself not to do the hard work. You know, like the best basketball players aren't like, I don't need to practice today. No, everyone gets better the more you practice. Truly and I have seen thousands of clients. Everyone gets better the more you do it. And if you're failing and getting rejected and not doing well in interviews, keep going because that all informs it. It truly is. The more you do it, the better you get. An interview is a set of questions about you. The more you do it, the better you get.

Love it.

For hiring managers, it's a different, it's a different piece of advice. But the same idea as practice is incredibly important for hiring managers. But the thing that hiring managers get wrong almost universally is they talk way too much in interviews. 80% of the time. And I always tell them you should be talking 20% of the time. You are providing a platform because you want the candidate to open up you. According to the eeoc, an interview is a test. You're testing them. So ask them tough questions. Watch them squirm. I know it's uncomfortable for some people, but that's the best way to have productive interviews. If you are a hiring manager and you don't interview well, I almost guarantee it's that you haven't done your practice, you haven't thought deeply about great questions to ask, you haven't done your research and prepared. And number two, you're talking the entire interview. Most hiring managers do that. Hey, thanks for coming in. Let me tell you about the job. Let me tell you about me. Let me tell you about the company. And they talk and talk and talk and talk. And then they look at the candidate and say, so why do you want to work here? And if the candidate has more than two brain cells, they just regurgitate back to you everything that you just said. And they're like, cool, you're hired. You're great. You just sat there and you nodded and smiled. Love you. You're easy to talk to. I like you. That's how people get hired. And then hiring managers go to HR six months later and they're like, I don't understand. This person can't do the job. Like, did you interview annoying to me.

And stop being such a narcissist. It isn't about you, it's about them and how they fit in. What you think is important. So why are you talking 80% of the time that's annoying.

Well, I think, you know, some point. Most of the time I have experience that most hire managers do have their heart in the right place. And it comes from a place of like, I just need to, like, put. I need to make sure they understand what the company is. I need to make sure they understand what the role is. And I get that, but that you do. At the end of the interview, you have to ask them questions first. You have to test them first.

God, and your work is so great. I want to ask you one more thing. Then I'm going to let you go. I love Your Instagram and TikTok work and your videos. And there was one I caught recently about the one thing not to say or how not to answer the question, why do you want to work here? Or will you just. I thought it was brilliant. Will you just tell us? Don't do this, people.

Yeah, I Think I know the one you're talking about. So this is just a small, small recasting, but I think it's very interesting when a hiring manager looks at you in an interview and says, why do you want to work here? People get a little caught up in this and they think, oh, well, I, I want to work here, you know, because I, I need the, the benefits or I have three kids and I need a good salary, or I, or I read on your company's website and I saw your mission and I really like that. No, no, put yourself in the hiring manager shoes. Why do you want to work here? Is what can you do for me? What can you do for this company? What are you bringing to me? I'm sitting over here thinking, I'm about to stroke a check for $80,000 to hire you at the salary. I want to know what I'm getting for that money. I know what I can do for you. The other thing is people do in the interview prep process is they spend a lot of time researching the company, reading the company's website, and they don't think about. The key thing, which is an interview, is a set of questions about you. You should be spending all of your interview prep thinking about interview questions they're going to ask you, not regurgitating back to them their company's third quarter numbers. I know my third quarter numbers. I don't need to hear you tell me that in an interview. I'm going to ask you, what are your strengths and weaknesses? Why do you want to work here? Where do you see yourself in five years? Why should I hire you? That should not be the first time you're thinking about the answers to these questions. When you're in an intimidating boardroom with a CEO asking you that question. If you spent all your time researching the company, you're gonna be, oh, I know. Where do I see myself in five years? So it's really backwards the way job seekers go about this process. They talk about what the company can do for them, and they regurgitate back to them the company's website. It's the opposite of that. You should be spending all of your interview prep thinking about, how do I position myself, how do I answer? Tell me about yourself a little bit of your past, present, future. I give formulas in all the videos that I do on how to answer these questions and insight into if you're a charmer, how are you going to answer this? If you're a challenger, how are you going to answer this? And I hope to, to empower People to be the. The most authentic versions of themselves. I very rarely say, like, this is exactly how you answer it, because as we've talked about, there's no. And there's so many industries, and I speak to millions of people. It's not like I can cover exactly the right way to answer this for every industry. It's more about inspiring people and empowering people to find the best versions of themselves. That's why I do what I do. Oh, I love it.

All right, I have a little test question, and this is going to be the end. I want you to tell me what style it seems like I am in this. If I were coming to interview with you and you needed another, a career coach and a leadership coach who's a writer, speaker, trainer, and you listen to me about what I do, and you told me about the role, and then you said, why would you want to work for my company? I know for a fact that it wouldn't be 100% what I can do for you. It would also be. And this is where I am in my career. And my mission is to. To support blip, blip, blip. And not only am I going to bring everything I've ever done to help that, but it marries up what matters to me, what style. In other words, I'm not just going to give you what I'm doing for you, because that's not the full picture. I could interview 20 other places and do that same job. Maybe I'm going to actually tell you why it matters to me that I'm going to do it. Is that a particular style?

Let me ask you a question.

Yeah.

In this interview process, what we're imagining here, if I'm diagnosing your interview style, do you want to be liked? Do you want to be yourself? Do you want to get it right, or do you want to adapt? Which one of those four terms do you most.

Say it again. It's a test. Say it again. Those four terms.

Do you want to be liked?

Yes.

Do you want to. Do you want to be yourself?

Yeah.

You want to be respected and be yourself.

You got it. You can stop there. I've. At 63, I've had enough of twisting myself in a pretzel. Will not do that. Will not work for some organization that doesn't let me be me. So it's. I have a lot to give, and I need to use those talents in a way that I'm going to feel fulfilled and understood and respected.

Rejected. Okay, so I understand that you're steadfast in Your approach. So you're not a charmer or harmonizer, but here's the difference that we need to figure out. So challengers really go in and ask a bunch of tough questions. But I'm getting the vibe from you that you are more of an examiner as well. You could be an examiner with challenger tendencies. Challengers really push back in that way. But I'm getting the vibe from you that you're more of an examiner where you kind of. Of you want to show that you're qualified and you also kind of like hold back and let them show them, show you who they are.

So is examining. I would say yes. I want to tell them everything they need to know to know if I'm a good fit. But I'm also testing them. Yeah, if you're not a good fit for me, I'm out. I don't need to keep doing this.

Yeah, you're a challenger with examiner tendencies. Is challengers want to be respected and heard, and they ask a lot of tough questions. And they also. They also test. Harmonizers don't test in interviews. They don't. They're not going to rock the boat. Charmers don't either. I don't, I don't. I don't want to do that. I just want you to like me. I don't want.

Oh my gosh, look at this. And look at our different styles. And I. I'd want to work for you and with you and we're very different.

Is.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

What's the final word you want to leave listeners with? And I've kept you way too long. What's the final thing you want people to know?

I want people to know that it's okay to be themselves. I want people to know that the, the real power comes from owning who you are. Never pretending to be something that you're not. And the moment you can step into that, no matter what your style, and say, this is me, and really feel as though you own that and you embody that and you. You really understand yourself is actually also the moment you start to shift, you start to compromise, and you come become even better at all of it. And I think that's the full circle moment of really understanding that you have the power all along, but it's contained in self knowledge. If you're running from it, if you're avoiding all the mirrors, if you avoid self awareness and self knowledge, you'll never get there. You know, one of my favorite, favorite quotes is the only way through hell is to keep going. You Know, the only way to get through this is to do it is to really fully embrace who you are. If you're running from it, you'll never get there. If you're trying to pretend to be something you're not, that's not it either. It's stepping into yourself and really understanding who you are, the good, the bad, the warts and all. And, and that's really how I pull my book full circle. I open my book by telling the story of getting into pen in my college interview, and I reflect on it in my final chapter because I was like, wait, why, why, why was that so successful? And one of the reasons is it's kind of like that beginner mind. You go back to, oh, I didn't know enough to. To question myself. That, that, you know, being unabashedly me is, is really where we all need to be, obviously with professional context. And you're going to be professional.

And I think a corollary to this is not every job is one you really want to get. So if you are unabashedly you and you don't get it, I'm looking right at the camera. Don't immediately think you blew it. You probably were not ever meant to be in that role and you would be miserable. Like I have been in corporate life a lot. So I, I just couldn't. Thank you. I can't thank you enough for the work you're doing, Anna. Thank you. And where do we learn everything about you? Where do we scoop up your book and see all your videos? Where do we send people?

Thank you. Thank you. So if you want to take the interview style assessment and get your own profile to discover your interview style, come to the interviewology.com and you can follow me. Anna Papalia on wherever you get your social media. I post the same video everywhere. TikTok, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, you name it. I'm there giving out free interview tips. And you can sign up for our newsletter and get tons of free resources on the site. Yeah, my book's available on Amazon.

Thank you so much.

Wow.

I. I know that I've learned an awful lot when I kind of have to go take a nap, which I feel like I have to.

I've exhausted you.

It's a lot to process and it's so good, people, you know, I say this, I'm going to say it every time. If you don't have questions about this, we're not doing our jobs right. You've written a whole book and it's 15 years. I don't know how long of experience. Please ask a question of Anna or me wherever you see this because it's going everywhere and you know, hopefully it's spurred you to love yourself and explore and examine yourself, but also to think, hey, I'm a little confused. Help me understand. That's what we love to hear. And I hope this will move you forward. I hope that this will help you rock the interviews that you're meant to rock and get the roles that are going to move you forward and make you feel joyful and respected. Thank you again, Anna. Blessings to you. The important work you're doing. Come back again.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you. All right everyone, have a wonderful two weeks and we will see you next time.

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