287: Navigating Neurodiversity Key Organizational Steps for Embracing Autism with Dr Maureen Dunne

So neurodiversity. I think one of the most important things to understand about it is that it's a strength based concept and perspective that this paradigm rather than a deficit focused perspective and it's an umbrella term, it describes all the different and unique ways that people's brain works.

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Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. This is coming to you in mid July. We're not quite there yet but oh, it's been hot where I am. I'm in Connecticut. I hope you're all doing well and I'm so excited, levitating frankly to have our amazing guest, Dr. Maureen Dunn here with us. Maureen, thank you for joining. I know you're crashingly busy with your your children and everything you've got going on for summer and the launch of your book. I'm so honored and grateful that you could join us today. Thank you so much.

Thank you for inviting me. I'm excited to Be here.

Can't wait to dig into this topic. And I was telling Maureen that I have this funny reaction sometimes, as you all know who've listened, I cry on the show because it touches me in a way that I'm sometimes surprised about. And today is no different. This is such an important topic. We are talking about navigating neurodiversity, key organizational steps for embracing autism, adhd, dyslexia and other neurological differences. And this is such an important topic that I think. And you're going to tell us. You're going to correct me if I say anything that's incorrect. Please. Because I know you're part of this community as well, but I think it's still so misunderstood, so misdiagnosed. And you're going to tell us exactly why that is. And I. Because I work with so many people in corporate life, I think we're mishandling it in so many ways, from the C suite on down to HR to hiring. So we. Let me tell you about Maureen because it's so darn inspiring. Maureen Dunn is a cognitive scientist, neurodiversity expert, global keynote speaker, board director and business leader with over two decades of experience helping organization build thriving cultures. She has served as a senior advisor to some of the world's top corporate brands, Fortune 500 companies, universities, venture capital funds, and government officials. Oh, my gosh. Including the Lego Foundation.

Yeah.

Cornell University, members of Congress and more. And she recently co created the executive education program for business leaders. Wow. On future ready leadership at Harvard Kennedy School. Holy crow. There's an incredible bio I want you to read in the show notes, people. But this really, I don't know, brought tears to my eyes. The first community college graduate to be named a Rhodes Scholar. What an honor. She is also an elected official helping to build the talent pipeline with community colleges, representing over 12 million students at the national level. And you received a BA and MA from the University of Chicago. And you know, I don't even know what MSC stands for, obviously. Master's, Master's of Science, Masters of Science. There we go.

From the.

How do I not know that? Oh, I think because in the US it's Ms. And for this is London. There we go. From the London School of lse. Oh, my gosh. I went for a year to the University of London. Oh, my gosh. Lucky you. And doctorate from University of Harvard. And you have three children, actually.

Oxford. The doctorates that I. Yeah. That was while I was on the Rhodes Scholarship.

I see.

Oh, my gosh. It's just too Incredible. Now let us, let's dive in here to the most important questions because I only have you for 30 minutes, which is going to be hard, but can you please define neurodiversity for us in a way that we can take action about. Understand it. Can you? Because I don't think we get it quite yet.

Tell us.

Sure. Yeah. So neurodiversity, I think one of the most important things to understand about it is that it's a strength based concept and perspective that this paradigm, rather than a deficit focused perspective, and it's an umbrella term, it describes all the different and unique ways that people's brain works and someone identifies as being neurodivergent or neurodistinct or neurospicy. There's lots of different terms that people in the community use. Means that that person has a brain that works different from what we would call the neuronormative majority. So that, that's, you know, sort of high level. Sure. You'll.

Yeah, I'm going to dig in and questions.

Yeah.

And please, I, I so want to understand this. So if I phrase things in a way that's offensive or wrong, I want you to correct me right here. Don't be shy.

I appreciate that.

Will you please. So can you tell us why, you know, we're not wanting a pejorative look at the situation, but that's what we're getting, I think, in many organizations. What are we getting wrong? Why, why is it so hard for us to embrace neurodiversity? What, what are we not understanding as human beings and leaders?

There's a lot of layers, I think there. I wish we had, I think, I feel like we could talk for 10 hours, right?

You'll come back 10 times.

Yeah, I could do that. But you know, I. There, there's so many, there's so many things unpacked there. I mean, there's, there's some simple things like just how the standardized interview processes work at most organizations, you know, in many cases even inadvertently excludes neurodivergent talent. There's just, just ways in which we're, we're used to operating right where, I mean, I, I can't tell you how many times I've, you know, even talked to friends that are CEOs. And you know, I, I'm trying to influence them, right. So I'm like, hey, tell me how, how do you make your, you know, decisions, right? Like if you're gonna advance talent or hire someone to begin with, and I can't tell you how many times I've. I've heard things like, well, you know, there's the beer test, right? You know, like, is this someone I want to have a beer with? Okay, well, right. So. And, you know, there's so many roles that are going unfilled, right? There's in, in. In many domains, we need problem solvers, we need skills. But so the way in which we're used to interviewing, I think, you know, is. Is we're not interviewing for the kind of skills and the talent that's needed to fill certain jobs. Like, there's this focus on things that usually have nothing to do with the job. So that's one issue. But I think also there are some deeper issues that are harder to fix in, you know, overnight or even with simple training. And it's. It's just deeply ingrained biases in our collective culture. And, you know, being a cognitive scientist. Right. So that's part of my. In my book, I have a chapter called Tricks Minds Play, that's the title of it. And it tries to at least make people more aware of the different kinds of unconscious biases that just, it's just how our brains. Our brains are wired to take mental shortcuts, right? And this, this, you know, being more aware of that and where we can be making decisions that aren't great decisions because we're sort of on autopilot, I think, is, you know, at a deeper level is. Is helpful and being aware of, you know, like the familiarity bias, for instance, where just without even realizing it, a lot of people just have an instinctive reaction to when they hear autism, for instance. And.

Because what do they think? Maureen, if you. And you are.

What comes to mind are these, these. These images from, like, certain movies that are super unrepresentative of. Of the rich diversity in the community, like Rain man or, you know, it's always the. The tech genius or, you know, mostly boys. So I. There's. There's just the rich diversity and complexity and personalities and amazing people that are autistic, for instance, get reduced, you know.

To a stereotype that is.

It's just instinctive, like, you know, assuming, okay, this is someone who's probably has. Is not going to be a people person, which is not always. There's. There's extroverted autistic people. So, like, just, you know, I just think it's easy to, like, typecast and characterize. And, And I think what helps, you know, that's going to take some time. But, you know, I talk a lot of this. My. In My book is that if we can normalize these conversations. Like, like, right. What you're trying to do here with me now.

Right.

Um, I've just even seen it. It's been incredible over the last few months. Even just like there's a lot of people in top leadership positions that are neurodivergent and feel like they can't disclose because you know, it'll, it'll hurt their professional career. But the more like it's normalized and we can talk. Hey, why do we all have to be the same? Like there's advantages to us working together and you know, you know, including people that, that, that have different ways of seeing the world and thinking there's. And so the more like just these conversations, I think get normalized in our culture, the more we'll start seeing the broad representation even in leadership. And then, you know, and then I can think that helps, that helps change how people when they're on auto. The brains are on autopilot of like, okay, wow, wait, this other person who. So there's, you know, there's different types of even autistic people and, and it's a really wide range of interesting people. And oh wait, there's that, you know, senior VP at, you know, this technology company or this marketing expert that is also auto. It starts to. Your mind starts to I think, realize like reality. You know, you were examples that, that allow, you know, the brine to process more Egyptic reality when you're making those decisions because you're just not familiar and you're you little familiarity and very small number of examples. That's what you automatically, without thinking about it really, you know, assume that what autism looks like or ADHD looks like or dyslexia.

Holy crap. I want to ask you, tell me again, tell me if what I'm saying is, oh gosh, Kathy, you missed the mark. But as you were discussing it, you know, I am, I'm 64 years old. So when I was in the corporate world, senior women were not really common. I feel like what you're describing is what I went through in some ways being a woman forging a senior level role. There were stereotypes about women. Women are emotional, women don't make good decisions. Women are less good with money. Women want to stay home with the children.

Right?

Because.

And there's still, you know, and we've made progress, but it's, it's not perfect. Right, but, but is it similar that in some ways I think, I think it is because I mean, and then, you know, there's the extra complexity. Obviously there's a lot of neurodivergent women then that, that are, you know, are people that belong to multiple underrepresented categories. You know, but I think it is in the sense that, you know, there's these sort of ways just the social clubs, right. And, and how decisions get made and neurodivergent people, women have historically been excluded from those con conversations and other underrepresented groups. And I think neurodivergent, I'm probably one of the, the few. You know, there's not too many neuropenly neurodivergent people that are at any leadership tables. Right. And so it's, I think that, yeah, I think most of us don't feel particularly welcome, you know, in that capacity. I have a friend in the UK that constantly says, reminds me of, okay, neurodivergent leaders. We're not generally asked to be at the leadership table, but we pull up our own chair.

I love it.

This is my friend Shirley in London. Yeah, she's in Manchester.

You really are groundbreaking because it strikes me that you lead with I am neurodivergent and this is why you need to hire me and this is why you need to read my book. And you know, you're, you're, Is that true that you're.

In my case. It's, it's, it's, it's a, I mean I, this is my. In. In addition to all of that, this is my focus of expertise that I've pursued for decades. I've been, I've been doing this for way, way before like there was even really much public awareness at all. So it's been interesting for me to see, to be part of that for so long and be at a friend last week say to me, wow, I did. I just found out about you and you know, you've been waving the flag out there for 20 plus years. You know, but it's, it's, I think it's been interesting to see that like how things have shifted in society. Like there is a lot of, there's starting to be a lot of public awareness. So it's like things have change in a positive direction quite a bit, but at the same time it's, we're so far off with actually what I call authentic neuro inclusion and you know, so, so, but this is not just, it's not just lived experience. I mean I, I, my, my doctorate at, at Oxford, my research at University of Chicago. I've been focusing on this since I was 17 years years old. In. In whether, you know, the research, the advocacy, you know, was. It was all part of the mission. I. I guess. And I'm dying now. The world's finally ready to, maybe I'm hoping is finally ready to have more of these conversations where it could. There could really be a big impact.

Oh, I'm so excited. All right. I'm dying to know. You know, I was a former therapist, and I love talking about how we're formed. So I just have one tiny question, but then I have 500 others. Can I just ask you, honestly, did your childhood and what you experienced. You mentioned that you took my dominant action style quiz. Thank you for doing that. And you are the advocator. And I said to you, if you didn't come out that out of the five, I forget how many there are action styles, I would chuck the whole quiz because you are that. But can I ask you just on a personal note, did you experience difficulties in childhood that made you want to be a pioneer in this field?

Yeah, I mean, I. My childhood, you know, was complicated, I think, because I. I didn't know the full extent of my neurodivergency until when I started to become a. More of a Tanger. So through. Through my. Through childhood, though, I knew I was hyper lexic and I was reading, you know, fluently. By three, I'd come home every summer with giant stacks of books, and I'd go visit my grandparents, and they would kind of scold me, you know. Yeah, I was. I mean, but I was doing it. I realized later when I started studying cognitive science like that how, like, ways in which I was processing information was different than the neuronormative majority. And, you know, and I could just, yeah, read very fast process, like sort of pattern, abstract, certain, you know, certain things. So I would. I could get through material very, very fast in that way.

And your grandparents scolded you? Go out and play with.

Well, they were, you know, my grandparents were from. They were immigrants from northern Italy from. From Florence area. And so I spent a lot. They. They're just such lovely people. I. I love them so much. Yeah, they. They were a little less scholarly, I guess, than my parents, in a way, and so they sort of thought it was a little weird, you know. Yeah, this is too intense, you know. Why. Why are you obsessed with reading and just, you know, go out and play with, you know, the other kids, this. This kind of thing. But, you know, and then I was really interested into music, so I was competing as a pianist, like, from a very young Age, too. So I was like. I just had a really weird, like, in so many ways, I just had a abnormal childhood. So I knew. I knew I was different, but for a while, like, you know, my. In elementary school, you know, I was being told I was. It was just because I was gifted and I kind of, you know, you. You kind of know, you're. It's more than that, but it became real. It just became more and more obvious once I started to get, you know, be closer to the teenage years. And then, you know, the. Just my skill sets became much more uneven. So high school was where I really struggled a lot and became much more aware of, like, just that. Yeah. Like, I just had a lot of intense interests that weren't the same as my peers and. And was, you know, sensitive to a lot of auditory noise, like in the, you know, cafeteria, and just. Just a lot of. So that's where I, you know. Yeah. Where it really started to become. Become more clear. And that's part of what became part. Ended up becoming part of my community college journey. I ended up graduating high school early and, you know, enrolling in. In community college. And then from there I transferred. Yeah. University of Chicago. And it's.

Look at me. Here I go crying on my own podcast another time. Why am I crying? Because you've done what. And please take this the right way. What so many people I'm inspired by have done. They've turned their mess into a message. I'm not saying your life was a mess. I'm saying the way that the world interacts with us makes it feel messy sometimes. But our mess is a gift. Usually when we're different, when we see the world different, when. When we stand out, when we're not like other people. If we can only see that, there are gifts to that and. And God darn it, does the world need those gifts?

Look at.

Look at. Yeah. And, you know, my. My mom. So I don't know if I don't want to start crying, so probably shouldn't go into too much. Everybody. But she. She was. I was so close to her. She was such a big part of, you know, like, even when I was in high school, like, I had a high school counselor accuse me. Accuse me of having an eating disorder, which I didn't have, because she'd see me escape. Try to escape the L and things like that. And I think, you know, but then my mom would pick me up sometimes and to give me a break and take me out to lunch and. And stuff. But what. What was, you know, what was really hard for me then was that, I mean, she had. Was diagnosed with breast cancer, terminal breast cancer, you know, as a teenager. And so she. She was a fighter. She fought through it longer than. Than any doctors even expected. But, you know, I did lose her fairly young. So it was. It was that then kind of was a. You know, I know the focus of your podcast is like, Finding Brave, and I feel like. I feel like I had to, like, find inside myself, like, all the encouragement and. And things that she, like the role she used to play in my life. Like, it's so hard to lose a mom. You know, actually, you're a hero.

She was a hero for you.

Well, when you're. When you're still forming your identity too, and, you know, you're still. And if you're neurodivergent, it's more complicated. But. But I think then, you know, like, going through that process made me a braver person. Like, it made me, you know, it was really, really, really hard, but it. It made me find these internal resources to take bolder action and do things later that. That I felt were the right things to do and. And which, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think it just. It's because I had to kind of like, you know, I didn't have these people that I could go to to say, oh, am I doing the right thing? You know, what had to be that person.

I had to internalize and.

And kind of get. Get stronger inside, have. Have a stronger sense of who I was as a person and what made me me. I. So I went through this long process, like, especially in my 20s, where, you know, I feel like I. At some point, I almost felt like I was living life backwards. I know it sounds weird, but, like, where. Where, you know, you do that deeper. I did a lot of this deeper work.

Wow.

That early anticipated doing. Yeah. Much later in. In life and story.

How old were you when she passed?

I had just turned 24, but she had been. She was. Was 6 since I was like, 16. So it was sort of like, you know, a long. Yeah. Wow. Process.

Yeah. I'm sorry you went through it. All right. Now I have one other question then. I want to get into what we have to teach for organizations and leaders and. And really give them the understanding, because I think we talk just like a lot of other issues. We talk around it, but we don't tell the hard truth. Like, in a minute we'll get to, you know, your friends saying, yeah, the beer, the beer. You know, I think that People hear us saying, you can't just hire people that look and feel and sound like you. There's reasons you cannot do that for the health of your organization.

But people.

People are limited. I'm really getting the feeling the human brain. Holy cow. Didn't really develop the way we needed it to. But before we go there, where we're really going to talk about why this is essential. This isn't just a nice to have. I read that in your notes. 1 out of 5 people are estimated to be neurodivergent. Can you answer a question that I know, I hear and people don't want to talk about? Seems that there is much more neurodiversity now, is that incorrect? And it's just we didn't recognize it for the past hundred years or have things contributed to the neurodivergent mind and behavior?

Yeah, I think it's an interesting conversation. There's always been neurodivergent people. So I think most of what we're seeing now is that there were large portions of society that a lot of people that just weren't being identified early. And there's a lot of reasons for that. I know a lot of women are particularly, you know, it's not uncommon to be diagnosed much later in life because girls present differently than boys for especially things like autism and adhd, and we're still learning a lot about these gender differences there. But I think, look, neurodiversity has always been there. I think it's just. There's more public awareness. And I think, you know, if you go back 20, 30 years, I just think that there was. There were a lot of kids that were maybe identified as, like, the quirky kids in the classroom or the bad kids in the classroom, but they weren't being identified as needing specific support. We were. Yeah, right. It's.

Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt, but like your counselor saying she's got an eating disorder. I interviewed Peter Shankman. Do you know Peter, you know, adhd, Neurodivergent. And now he, you know, is consulting with organizations. You two would love talking. But he mentioned that the dopamine that he needed in his brain led him. I mean, he could read at a very early age. He was bored in school, so he was the clown, the class clown to give him the dopamine. If I'm understanding correctly, Rush, he needed. Well, right, right. Teachers were like, yeah, he's really. Yeah, he's a disturbance and he's a problem. Nobody understood well.

And even now, there's just, it's, there are a lot of great teachers out there that aren't really being given the tools or the resources of training to understand this. Right. And they, and they're, you know, understaffed or it's, it's not, it's not easy to personalize approaches right. When you have a class. So, so there's, I think a lot we could do to support, to better support teachers from earlier on. So I do like to say, like, even though my book is more focused on employment and pathways to employment and the workforce, these conversations need to start earlier in the schools.

Yeah, that's so right. All right, now let's dig in. You wrote this book, it's come, it's your life's work. What do we need to understand? Let's start with the things you see in all of your advising and board work and working with members of Congress. What are we not doing and how do we actually take steps to do it right here? Listen to the podcast people and take these steps. Give us what we need to do.

Yeah, and you, and you brought up, you know too about like, well, what is, what are, what is the, the mind, like we talked a little bit earlier about like there needs to be this sort of mind shift in understanding that the diversity is the strength that is an asset to an organization. And you know, if we can get to a point where people genuinely understand that and value that, then there's a lot of strategies in my book of what, you know, there's, there's a framework of a pyramid of neuro inclusion and what I call the three Cs, which is codification plus conduct drives culture. So we we kick into that. But I think high level. There's a concept I bring up in the book called neurodiversification. And, and why that's more important than culture fit. Because going back to like the beer test, you know, we're, we're, we're just, I think it's just how things have always been done and we, we end up, you know, as humans being vulnerable to always like falling into this pattern of okay, what's, what do we know? What's the familiar things that kind of fall outside that range. You know, we're not really sure how to, how to judge it or, or what to think about it. And so making a conscious effort of better understanding that especially in the future economic climate we have in front of us that for companies to not only survive but to thrive, in my opinion, cognitive and experiential diversity is going to be the Difference maker. And I call that you want to neurodiversify your human resources portfolio. Because if you have a group or if all your employees or board members or senior leadership are too similar in their cognitive that their experiential tendencies, their cultural backgrounds, gender, if there's too much similarity, there's inevitably going to be blind spots and there's going to be missed opportunities, there's going to be a misunderstanding of risks. You want that diversity, you know, at the strategy tables, at the leadership tables, at all levels of your, of your organization. I think that that's super important. And, and a week and a half ago I was in London, I was a keynote at London Tech Week. And I started out because you asked me about the, when we talked about the hyperlexia in the beginning of this, you probably appreciate it. So I started out my keynote about Lewis Carroll's book the the in the Looking Glass because talks about the Red Queen's race and the idea there was, was that you know, Alice in the Red Queen that you know Alice, she's like running faster and faster and faster and she eventually is like, well, you know, however fast I keep running, I don't seem to be getting somewhere else. I should start paraphrasing, you know, right. Like it, yeah, we should be getting somewhere else. And the Queen's like, well basically you have to keep running faster and faster just to not get behind. And I use that as a way to introduce where the world is going with. There's so much conversation about AI and you know, of course, yes, organizations need to integrate, you know, AI if they're going to stay competitive. But there will come a point where that's everybody, everybody has access to that. And that's not going to be, that's you're just going to need that as an organization and not fall behind. But what's going to be the driver of superior and functional importance is, is your people and you know, the cognitive and experiential diversity and people that could bring different things to the table. And, and we need everybody's contribution. So that's sort of the big picture I bring, is that we really need everybody's contributions and, and you know, I have a question. Solve those problems. Yeah.

Oh, I love to hear that. I mean AI at first like chat chatgpt, I resisted. Oh, now I'm on it, you know, four times a day. But it doesn't replace everything, right? I mean humans are so crazy. We're like woohoo, here's the next best thing. And everything else is Terrible. No, this is iterative. It makes me nuts. That's another story. But because you're a neuroscient scientist, Maureen, can I ask you something? Isn't there such a thing? This is to normalize so everyone listening. We get that you're comfortable with the familiar. It's. Isn't there a familiar familiarity bias in the brain? And it's evolutionary. It comes from blip millions of years ago that what looked different was a threat.

Was a threat first, for sure. It's just now the now we live in a very different world that's much more complex. And so it's, It's. It just. It gets in the. To the way. In the way now of genuine inclusivity. And so don't.

What I'm saying to you people is you're gonna have it. You're gonna want to be with people that look like you, sound like you, match you. That's a nat. That's what. That's an instinct. We're asking you to gain. I am anyway. Gain awareness of when you're feeling like this person's different. And it makes me uncomfortable. I don't know how to answer them. I don't know how. They're talking very fat. Whatever it is I'm stereotyping, Take a breath.

But it's.

We're asking you to change. We're asking you now and at least.

To start out, to become, rather than your first thing that comes through your mind. Sticking with that. Like, be open. Be curious. Right. Be curious about that person. Let me learn more about them. Let me reserve judgment and, And. And be open to changing. Yeah. Being. Being open to updating beliefs and, you know, by ways of thinking that are. Are no longer serving us. But I think the first. The first step is to be proactive. Be aware of the bias and be proactive in getting to know people from very different backgrounds and spending time with people that are different from you and. And just being curious.

Oh, you make it very simple. I love it.

So let's.

Let's talk about. I think there's probably several levels. The interview process, because you're talking to senior leaders, but this trickles way down to the manager who's hiring, to the HR person who doesn't have this training. So, you know, because I'm a career coach, we're always looking at who gets identified who. Who gets the interview, who moves through the interview, who's selected, who's promoted, who's retained, who's developed. Right. All through those steps, we need new ways to look at Human potential, I think. But we'll talk about that in five minutes.

And to evaluate and assess talent that isn't going to be obvious from a, a social verbal based interview process.

So where do we begin with the interview process to make changes? Maureen, what do we do? What do companies change first?

I think, I mean being open to what we would call non traditional interview processing, you know, where it's, it's not this standardized one sit, one size fits all approach, but realizing that there's better ways to assess talent, be more skill focused and be put more effort and thought into the role that you're recruiting for, you know, so there is not this like standardized approach and you know, allowing, I think, I think it's just really helped. Some simple things are incredibly helpful like allowing neurodivergent people to, or allowing it all employees, you know, whether they disclose or not to showcase, you know, their skill sets in other ways, bring in a portfolio of prior work, you know, be, be able to show what they can do for the organization rather than forcing them into this constant presentation mode where they have to act the parts, you know, rather than just saying hey look, look at this is what I can do. Look, I can build, I can build these things. I can, I can code, I can do this amazing design work and showing what one can do because I, I think, I think that's really helpful. And then also there's, there's different platforms out there that are being researched that are more based on like, you know, there's game based assessments out there that, that again are, have, can be more objective of like understanding where someone's skills are, you know, what skills that are relevant, matching those skills to roles. And some of the work I do is also. It's not. It, there's, it's, it's, there's a, a coaching methodology I use where I help but you know, I help candidates and job seekers better understand and students as well better understand what their strengths are so that they also can feel more confident. But also you know, if they're assuming that they, they are interviewing at a neurodivergent friendly place or neurodiversity friendly place that they can, you know, at least have that kind of awareness of their strengths. Right to lead with that and you know, have these conversations with their employers. So I think also just you know, employees can, but I think that it's also important even you know that there's the other side of it of just even if someone gets hired and this is based on this pyramid of neuro inclusion I brought, I brought up is. Is for, for. For everyone. Not just neurodivergent people for everyone to thrive though it does. It's important that there, that the culture, it's not just, you know, policies and, and you know, formative.

You know, I check the box, right?

I know, yeah. It's funny brother, because I had another chapter thinking outside check the boxes and the title. This is a whole chapter but it's. It right where there's a deeper cultural level and appreciation for experiential neurodiversity and cognitive diversity and you know, people that are just have different life experiences and ways of thinking and doing things that they're bringing to the table. And that there's. The culture is one that it's safe for people to be who they are so they can do their best work. And I think that benefits everyone. It's not just the neurodivergent people, but it, it's, it allows people to just be more productive like, and ask for what they need to be more productive. Um, you're.

You're talking about a utopia which is so far away.

Yeah. All right. I know you have to start somewhere, right?

We have to start. I have a few more questions, then I promise I'll let you go. As I said, there are people in my life in a lot of ways, from clients to family members who are neurodivergent. When you talk about neurodiversity friendly companies, a lot of these people and a lot of my clients, they're so far from feeling comfortable to talk about their neurodivergence, they are not going to do it and they know they can't do it. How do so people listening who are saying, yes, this is me and where do I find this world where I can be me? Where do folks who are looking for roles find neurodiversity friendly cultures? How do they find it Them?

Right. Talking to, I think, I think talking to people in the community, people like me and others who work closely with organizations, helping them become neuro inclusive. And that's why, you know, I think my approach, I call it, it's not cosmetic surgery, but it's gene therapy because it's that. Because, because when you get to the point where you have to get to the point where this is normalized, these conversations are normalized. And that's also why I was like, I, you know, am very visible because I can't be out there saying that we need to normalize this and have these conversations and help younger generations and other people, leadership positions If I'm not willing to, to be, to disclose myself. So, so I think, I think it's one of those things where the more people that start to feel comfortable and are in safe environments in their, you know, the more others will do it and, and then others will see that, like those who are in high level positions, especially already or whatever position they're in, if they're still thriving at the organization after disclosure, people notice that.

Right.

That's a signal that that's a great organization to work for if you're a neurodivergent person. And, and so I think, you know, I think we, we look, Claire, we look closely at, well, who, who's public, who's visible, who's disclosing and how did that, how did that impact that person and their career? And, and then, you know, and the more people that are out there just having these conversations and feel comfortable doing it, I think the more then, you know, there'll be that, that change on a, a broader scale where it will become more normalized and more companies will just come on board and, and there'll be that shift.

Are you going to do a podcast, Maureen, about this? Senior leaders who are neurodiverse.

Would be probably a, something that should exist out in the world.

Oh my gosh. Okay. I'm waiting for it. I'll see if I can fit it in here. Yeah, really, after your seventh book and are there, are there ratings like best place to work? Are there current ratings?

And, and not, not yet. I think that there's people working on similar things and I have a process that leads to certification for, for companies, but it's a, it's a long, it's a, it's a long. But I think, I think we're, you know, there, there was, there's a lot of programs out there, bigger companies that do these neurodiversity at work programs, but they started out a lot of them as pilots and they've been very successful overall. But I think now, you know, the approach I'm recommending is let's, let's go beyond that now. We're ready to go beyond that. You know, let's, let's change our organizational culture so everybody can feel like they can belong, can do their best work, be productive. That, you know, there could be strategies for recruitment, but let's get beyond these sort of more separate pathways right to employment that aren't really impacting the culture of that organization on a day to day basis.

Gene therapy like you talk about. Oh, is there anything else that you would feel you would regret not having said here. Anything else that the thousands of people listening need to hear from you?

Sure, I guess with six, you know, I've. We focus so much on people in leadership positions, and every level of an organization, I think is important, plays a role in creating these kind of organizations. But there is something I do bring up a lot, and I brought it up in my book as well, about just more broad leadership, and that it's not about a title or specific position or even a role, that it's, it's, you know, everybody from where they're at has some ability to choose, make decisions that can influence. And, you know, I, I think that whatever, whatever, whatever someone's official role in their organization or even if, you know, you're a sibling or a parent or a community member or an elected official, like, there's, you know, I think the important thing is that from whatever, wherever you are, you don't have to be the CEO. You don't even have to be the manager. You could still play a proactive role in creating a more inclusive world. Talk positively about, you know, neurodivergent people. Look for the strengths. You know, sometimes we focus so much on the deficits, we don't even see the strengths. And then, and then the neurodivergent people don't. They stop seeing the strengths in themselves. And so, you know, talk about, talk about the strengths to tell, tell stories to your friends, to your co workers that really shatter those stereotypes about someone, you know, that's neurodivergent. Because I think these, all these conversations really help chip away those stereotypes and those biases. And that's. It's, it takes. We, you know, it's. There's not gonna be one person that changes the world in this. It's. We need. We need everyone's contributions and, you know, and so that, yeah, I think everybody can play a role.

That is so beautiful. There's nothing more to say. That is just so. And I feel like it goes beyond. Well, there's nothing more to say, but here Kathy keeps talking. It goes beyond neurodiversity. It's. It's. Embracing the human spirit.

Shows up. It's about humanity. And neurodiversity is part of being human.

That's it. Oh, I'm so grateful for what your work. And so inspired. Where do we soak it up? Where do we get your book? Where do we learn more about all of your training and your certification? Where do we send people?

Maury, we could go to my website for The Neurodiversity Edge, which is www.the neurodiversyadge.com. so that talks about the book and my approach, and there's links to. About trainings and keynotes and, and workshops that you can reach out to me in terms of where to get the book. I. It's available wherever books are sold, so Amazon, Barnes and Noble could order it through your, you know, local, local bookstore. As, as, as well. And there's also, I know a lot of busy people like audiobooks, so there is an audiobook version as well that you can get on Amazon or Audible.

Have you done many Talk? TED Talks, TEDx Talks.

I'm hoping one day to do a TED Talk. I've done. I've done a lot. I. I do regular keynote.

I want to see the ted talk get 20 million views. All right. From my mouth to our mouth, to God's ears. Thank you again, Maureen. I find this so deeply, deeply inspiring. Thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you for taking time to join me.

Yeah, no, I, I loved our conversation. I just am inspired by your work, too. And thank you so much for, for inviting me and for caring so much about this topic and wanting to bring it to the world. So thank you too. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. All right, people, please, please, I'm asking you, whoever hears this, share it with 10 people. Look at me choking up. Write a comment. Wherever you see it, forward it, forward it, forward it, forward it to hr, forward it to your leaders. And I listen to what Maureen has done. I think it's so brave. It's the definition of finding brave in every way. Could we all just be a little more brave here and, you know, wherever you can make that impact. I so love what you said. We don't need to have manager or CEO in our title to lead, to influence, to make a positive difference. And this would be an amazing way to do it. Please, wherever you see it, share a. Share a question and we'll do our best to answer it. And I really hope this inspired you as much as it did me. I hope you have a wonderful two Finding Brave weeks and we will see you next time. Thank you so much. Thanks again, Maureen.

Thank you.

Hi, folks.

Kathy here.

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