Finding Brave 117: How Good Leaders Fall: The Role Of Arrogance In Leadership Failure, John Havlik

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. I'm on a roll here. This is my second today. And every one of them is kind of blowing my socks off. I know that sounds like a braggarty thing to say, but it is in this conversation with John Coach John Havlik. Captain John Havlik is no different. I am so thrilled after a lot of technical difficulty that, that we can do this together, John. I cannot wait. And we are talking about a lot of things. We're talking about leadership. We're talking about what kills good leadership, which is. We're going to cut to the chase here. Arrogance, hubris, inability to connect. We're going to talk about all of it. And John really knows this firsthand. So let me tell you a little about John right now. Captain John Coach Havlick, as he's known, U.S. navy SEAL, retired, led special operations teams around the world during his 31 year naval career, including the Naval Special Warfare Development group. Yikes. The SEALs most elite operational unit.

Wow.

What experience. Captain Havlik was a nationally ranked swimmer. And I just learned something about how swimming got you into the Navy. Incredible. And is a member of the West Virginia University Sports hall of Fame and Mountaineer Legend Society. You are a well rounded individual, John. Thank you for being here.

Oh, it's great to be here, Kathy. Thanks for having me on.

Oh, such a pleasure. So I want to tell everybody we did a Forbes interview together on the one common personality trait that crushes leadership, success and value and reputation. And every word was music to my ears because in my corporate life, I saw this over and over and over again. And gosh, you know. And it went a little viral, John, you know, when people read something that says to them, thank goodness someone is talking about what I see every day, but yet no one's talking about it at work. No one's doing anything about it at work. It's. It's like a bomb for the soul, for people. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, it's a tough one.

It's so tough. So I would love to start with. And your book, your book is called the Leadership Reclaiming Humility in an Age of Arrogance with the wonderful Bill treasurer, who I adore. Can you. There's so much to talk about. But can we start with why you and Bill wrote this book, what you were seeing? And then I really want to dive in into your naval career experience and all of it.

Yeah. The quick story was Bill and I were teammates at West Virginia University. He was a diver, I was a swimmer. And you Know, we struck up a friendship, and then I went off and he finished his degree, and he went off and did his thing. And about 35 years later, we reunited at a swimming and diving reunion a few years back. And, you know, I researched Bill, and I knew that he was doing his leadership seminars with Courage, Giant Leap Consulting. And so we had breakfast one day, and I said, you should bring me in and let me tell my sea stories, because it just seemed like the thing to do, you know, let's bring a seal on. So. So he said, yeah, we'll try it. So over the last five years now, you know, Bill has been great, opened up for the opportunities for me to talk to his seminars and workshops and tell my stories about the seals. And so when we would prep for these workshops, we talk almost every week, and we often. I talk about an article that we would see in the paper or hear on the news about some leader that was relieved or replaced because they did something bad or unprofessional and. Or, you know, I guess, stupid. So. And, you know, and it was kind of something that, you know, better as a leader, just common sense that you shouldn't have done. And so we would talk about this over and over and over. And then Bill just one day said, hey, thinking of writing a fifth book. Why don't. Would you like to co author? And I was like, absolutely. So once we kind of whittled it down to what we wanted to write about, we had a bunch of different things we want to talk about, you know, 10 traits that make leaders go bad. And we were just talking one day, and I said, you know, it all kind of seems to come out of hubris, you know, is the root of everything, and everything branches off all the bad character traits kind of branch off that. And he's like, okay, well, it helped help to reduce the writing when we just focused on hubris. And so that was kind of the nature of the beast. And we thought it was very relevant and a timely area to go into.

Very timely.

We're surrounded by it.

Oh, do you. I have questions. Do you define hubris as the same as arrogance? Are they the same in your mind?

I think so, yeah. I mean, if you look at the terminology or the definition, it's supreme arrogance or self confidence. And. And I just look at it. I think leaders, you know, athletes, whatever, to be good, you have to be confident in your abilities. But I think hubris takes it to the next level and tends to cloud your judgment where you become more important in the seals, you become more Important than the mission, you know, and so that's my experience with Huberts and what I've seen out of hubristic leaders.

And before we get into your. I've never met a Navy seal, I have to say I just said that. Or a captain of the. It's. And I want to be really transparent, John, I bet you've heard this before. Before I met you in. Well, this is not in person, but it's as close as we can get. I had a projection of what I thought a captain of the Navy seals would be, and you are not that. Do you know what I'm talking about? Have you heard that before?

Yeah, yeah, I've heard it before.

So it's, it's funny to me that I had that projection and you are just much more humble and more understated and, you know, I can imagine the people under you just loved your leadership. But we're going to go there because you were mentioning that at a certain point there was a gap. How you were leading was not really connecting with the people underneath you, the sailors. But we're going to talk about that. But before we do, what do you think contributes? If we look around, we're not going to get political, but if we look around us and the extreme arrogance we see. And to me, you know, I'm a former corporate person and then I became a therapist, so I see everything with a therapeutic lens. But arrogance, extreme arrogance can be so damaging, so demoralizing, so fracturing, so divisive. It can really destroy. It can destroy people, careers, lives, well being. It's not a small thing what we're talking about. And if you look at it from one another dimension, it can be narcissism. Extreme narcissism is, you know, deathly for people. Why do you think that it happens? How do good people suddenly become like this? Or maybe they weren't healthy people. What do you think? Because you've, I'm guessing there's a lot of it in the military. Would you say there is?

Luckily, I'm retired. Yes, yes, there is. And I, I think just like anything, success, promotion, advancement, you get rewarded for your past actions. Although I'm told when I was in the Navy, you get promoted for your potential, you know, and, but interesting, you know, that was what I was told. I was like, okay, but why did you put. Everything you're promoted on is based upon your past performance. And so if you get rewarded and continue to advance or promote it by the way you do business, then it just reinforces the way you do that and nobody checks and calls you out, you know, and so I think, I think hubris just stems from the fact that you become successful and nobody is questioning the way you do it. And I've known a lot of good leaders, you know, that seem to remain humble, but they're still confident and they can still make a decision. You know, for me, the biggest thing about a leader is somebody who can make a decision, you know, and that's what the guys want. When you're not a SEAL officer, they want to know that you can make a decision and take care of them. And so that was something I learned up. But I just used to just see guys or leaders who got carried away and as they got higher and higher, higher, they just, you know, they got to. What did they say? Success sends them astray in some regards.

And do you think sometimes, you know, they talk about narcissism, in fact can actually look like something else? It can look like great confidence, charisma, so it can actually propel you forward. And until it doesn't, until you're. You start to be damaging. So I'm guessing the same thing is true in the military, politics, academia, wherever that it can get you so far. Right. So it might help you make decisions because you can snap, judge, you can fire off commands, but leadership is also, I'm, I'm guessing you push back if you don't agree. It's not just making decisions, but isn't it also uplifting the people, bringing out the best in the people underneath you? Isn't it that too?

Yeah. You know, yes, you want to motivate people. You want them to excel at their jobs. You want to develop leaders because eventually we all go away and then new and new folks come up. So you want to develop people that can carry on and do a great work and are good leaders. So, you know, yes, you want to motivate people. You want to motivate. You want people to want to come to work every day. I would think is the way I kind of looked at it. If you make it miserable and you're not, you know, why show up? It's not just about the paycheck. I don't think it's. You got to have some kind of ownership of the process. And I think good leaders, good leaders know how to incorporate and make people feel like they're part of the process.

So let's talk about that. Can we break it down? You. You were mentioning, and I can see it, you're an introvert. So you talk about. Walk that what's it called? Deck plates.

Walk the deck plates.

Yeah. You know, you give in in the Forbes article, and I would love to hear them. You give really specific strategies for how a leader can, you know, I think first of all, identify tendencies towards arrogance and hubris. Hubris, and if you have it, how to counterbalance those, how to really connect with people. But can you just talk about the introversion piece? Because so much now has been. Thank goodness to. For Susan Cain, who's, you know, the expert of the quiet revolution, that our society and our work society, our work cultures are biased and they are against introverts because introversion looks like something else. What are you. You're slow, you can't think fast. You don't want to speak in meetings. And, you know, I wrote an article that kind of went viral too, about. I'm sick of the bias against introverts, but I had one because I'm an extrovert and I didn't. When I was leading in the corporate world, I didn't understand introversion. Can you talk about how you walked the deck plan, how you interacted with the people underneath you, why you realized you had to do it, and how did you do it in a way that made them feel really heard?

How'd you do it? Wasn't easy, I can tell you that. I started my career, I think, you know, when I was swimming. I wasn't the rah rah captain. I learned, led people and inspired people by my performance and practice and in the meets. And, you know, that kind of carried over into when I, you know, coaching brought me out a little bit more because you got to be on the deck plane. You got to motivate people. I mean, I often thought coaching leadership was, you know, making people do things they don't really want to do, but do it well, you know. And nothing is more painful than at least one from a swimmer. When a coach tells you to do a really hard set and you're dead tired. But you have to motivate that individual because a couple months down the road at your conference championships, you want to perform. This is part of the process to getting there. So coaching, I got a little more out of my shell, so to speak, then going through SEAL training was. It got me more out because the instructors are there, they're really hard on the officers, and, you know, they make you. They put you in situations where you have to show your leadership, you know, because they may work for you down the road sometime. And so they want to make sure that they're getting the best out of training. And so, you know, but I just carried on. You know, I just showed every day that I thought if I just was a good performer and I did a good job when I was in charge, that it would carry through. And I think that carried. That kind of could carry me through training. And then when it. But I got to. I will tell you, when I got to the SEAL team, I had a couple senior officers who said I was. I was too laid back, you know, and they wanted me to be the stereotypical special operations guy. In your face. Loud. All this other.

What we see in movies, you know, like, scary. Wouldn't want to be, you know, meet you in a dark alley kind of thing.

I tried. I tried that and I. It just wasn't me.

It's not you.

No, but it was hard. You know, I. I had a hard time. I go back and forth and, you know, in the teams we had, you know, we work hard, we played hard, and so maybe I got a little carried away on that part, but. But the leadership side of the house, I just felt like if I showed up every day, did my job, did the hard jobs and did them well, I'll get promoted in advance, just like they tell you. And.

But I didn't play there. Didn't happen for you, did it?

No, that was my.

What happened? What happened?

I just got a little too cocky.

Hubris.

Didn't listen. I didn't listen to my senior. I didn't get a mentor. I didn't get a sea daddy to kind of where I could bounce ideas and kind of get guidance throughout my career because I thought I knew it all and I was very cocky and it, you know, I burned some bridges and I stepped on some toes and you know, what I mentioned in the article, it's not always, you know, my. I didn't learn politics very well, and I kind of take that back to my swimming days. When you get up on the block and you're racing, you have a known distance, and the person who's fastest and trains the hardest usually wins and gets all the rewards from that. And that's kind of how I approached the seals and leading. But I quickly found out it wasn't the biggest. The strongest, the fastest don't always get promoted. It's often who you knew. And I didn't. I didn't do real well at that. And so it kind of bit me and I got really cocky and I ended up not promoting. And basically because I think I kind of irritated one senior officer and unfortunately, I had to get out of the Navy. And I had to get out of the seals not by choice, but for failure to promote. So I explained that.

Let me interrupt you. I always thought when you said that, that meant you didn't promote others, but in the Navy, it means you get two shots at a certain intervals, and if you're not promoted to the next level, you're involuntarily let go.

See you later. Yeah. Yeah.

How devastating.

Yeah, it was hard. It was hard. And after 13 years and having done some good stuff, having been at Dev group and all the other things, you know, I thought I was right. I was doing everything that was required, but unfortunately, I didn't, you know, and it. And so it came back. And so it was a hard, hard, humbling lesson for me to come from the very top and then, you know, go to the very bottom.

And what we. What we didn't. What I didn't ask you is how did you get back in? What did you do?

Well, I made it a point to. I stayed in the reserves, and I, you know, stayed in touch with people and everything. But I also found when I was off one day, I was checking my official record that one of my fitness reports, an annual performance report, had been changed without my knowledge. And it was a handwritten change, and I had no. I had never been notified of it, and it was not what I had a copy of and signed. But somehow this got on my official record. And so when. I can't talk about maybe promotion systems in two minutes, but when your performance reports aren't looking positive.

Physical performance reports.

Physical, not so much. It's just your leadership, you know what.

So something had been changed that you.

Weren'T aware somebody had made a negative. Yeah, somebody had made a negative comment or negative change that, when you look back on it, probably affected my ability to promote. And so I got promoted in the reserves, finally. Then I went to the Board of Corrections for Naval Records, and I petitioned them for removal of this fitness report because it was not the report that I had signed or approved. And they agreed with me and so cleared my record, was able to kind of get back on active duty. But it was. It was about two years it took to do that. So that's how I got back on active duty.

Can I ask you this? And when you say fitness, you mean fitness to lead, you don't mean physical fitness, right? Yeah.

No, no. They. Yes, it's your fitness to lead your performance.

We need. We need. I need a. What is it called? A dictionary of terms. John. Don't know what the heck you're talking about. All right. Yes.

Trying to stay away from the military acronym.

Got you. Would you say that it was hubris and arrogance that was in part contributing to what happened to you?

That's why it was my own hubris, because for two reasons. As I mentioned, I didn't have a mentor and I tried to do it alone. I tried to manage my career alone, which is not very smart. Yeah. And so. And then the other thing was, you know, everybody tells you to check your records and prep them before you go up for a promotion, you know, and I thought I did and probably just gave it a cursory review. But it wasn't until I was out and really going through my career and my records that I found this change. And so I blame that. You know, those two things are. I got, you know, I was asked to leave the Navy basically because of those two things, you know, and that's my own hubris because I thought, like I said, I thought I knew it all and I didn't. I got burned. So.

You know what I love about one of the many things I love about your story? When we think of arrogance, we have a certain, most of us, a certain picture of what it looks like just looking at you and hearing you. I can't imagine you being an arrogant person. But what you're sharing is there are shades of it. There are shades of what hubris is. In some, it's bombastic screaming. In some, it's, I got this. I don't need a mentor. That's for, you know, babies or I don't even need to check on these reviews. I got it. I know that I'm doing well. Arrogance comes in a lot of forms. Like, can I share one quick one?

Sure.

Written something like 700 posts for Forbes. I'm a writer that pus coach and all that. So when it was time to really write this next book that I'm writing, which is out in July, you know, there's a little arrogance there that nobody's really going to tell me how to write a good book. Well, that's ridiculous. Writing a book is not the same as writing a 1500 word post. Books are different. Books have different arcs of stories. So, you know, editors and my agent would push back and I'd be like, I got this. Well, you know, I didn't. And thankfully, I snapped out of it and listened to great editing. Great edit. Great writers need great editors. So what I want to share with people is check your own arrogance. It may not look like what you think it, it's supposed to look like or it does look. Does this, does this resonate with you?

Yeah, you know, like, you know, one of the points I say in the book is as I advanced, when I got back in the Navy and I started advancing back up, you know, into increased leadership positions, the one good thing that the Navy has is the leadership triad, and that's the commanding officer, executive officer, and then the senior enlisted. And you know, those three work together real hard. And they also check each other, you know, and check each other's back. And everything is about making sure you're doing the right things for the command. And so that, you know, when I say have a check, I learned that the hard way that I didn't have a check until I got back in the Navy the second time.

Have a check that can be an editor if you're a writer, that can be your boss, that can be a peer, that can be a mentor or sponsor at work who says, listen, I had to give you a little feedback, you know, if you don't mind. And it hurts. It ain't easy.

No, it's, it's, it's, it's not easy because you think you know it all, but, you know, like I said, it was usually my senior enlisted advisor who would close the door and goes, hey, boss, we need to talk. You know.

And your senior enlisted person was underneath you then?

Yeah, yeah, but he was, they would say enlisted advisor. He was a senior ranking enlisted member at the command and he worked right for me, so he had full attitude to come in when he wanted, close the door.

You know, we all need that at work. Why don't we have that? Is that something you talk about in your book?

Yeah, I think people are afraid to have somebody that calls them out, especially for doing well and you're successful. Why do I need you around?

You know, But I think most of us don't have someone who's junior to us doing that.

No, but you can find somebody who is a colleague or someone close to that that can. If you trust them, there goes. It's a trust factor that they have your back.

I'm saying we need someone junior to us who's on the receiving end of our leadership. Not a. I mean, yes, we need a peer and yes, we need someone higher level. But, but talk about to this point, walking the deck, deck plates that you found out there was a real disconnect from what you thought was getting through. And what can you tell us about that?

Yeah, it was my first real big Leadership job is a special boat unit down at Panama. And I was the number two guy. I was the executive officer. So I executed. I ran the command according to the command, the commanding officers, policies and guidelines. So I just basically ran the command. And I was hearing, I was passing word through my middle managers, my department heads, and it wasn't getting down to the sailors on the deck plate where the work is being done. And then I was hearing through the other way up the chain of command that leadership at this command didn't know what was going on. And so just one day I said, how can I do this a little bit better? And so I forced myself to. Every. Every Friday in the military, we have this thing called a field day, where you clean the command workspaces before you go on liberty for that weekend. And it's usually the XO's job to walk around, check for cleanliness, and let everybody go. And so I would. Took that opportunity to check for cleanliness, but I also took an opportunity to meet the sailors. That worked for me. And what it was, you know, I'll say right up front, it was very awkward, very uncomfortable in the beginning for everybody concerned. For me, it was pretty quiet to go out and start opening myself up to my sailors and then for the sailors to recognize, because usually when the XO comes into the workspace, it's not good, you know.

Yeah, it's like, oh, God, here's bad news. Or I gotta pretend things are good, or all of it. Right. Here's.

Yeah, here's the bad cop. What's up? What would we do wrong? So, you know, I walked in there and it. It was very uncomfortable, but I made a point to, you know, go shake their hands and ask them their names. And I would start asking them questions about what's going on in their department, what we're doing around the command. It took time. It took several months, and I had to do it. But I made it a commitment to do it every Friday when I was in town. And it took two to three hours to do out of my busy day. But I felt it was very important. And over time, the folks looked at it, became more comfortable with me coming down there, knew that I was coming, and it gave them a great opportunity to directly talk to leadership. Instead of going through the middle managers or me talking down to them and them talking up to me, it was just so I. One on one, I would just walk. And half the time I didn't even check on cleanliness. I just went and talked to the people to see how they're doing. And because overseas it's hard with families, you don't always hear the problems they're having or, you know, so was, you know, know I would learn about their families, ask them how things were going. It was, I was learning stuff that it wasn't getting up to me.

How long did it take for them to trust you and be truthful with you? Months.

It took months. Three to four solid months. Yes.

What broke that? What, what, what do you think made the change that they could finally tell you something? I'm going through a hard time.

Well, I think they started seeing me kind of do some things that they.

Had highlighted, you know, for the betterment they suggested.

Yeah, yeah. You know, like, hey, maybe I didn't know that, or maybe I can do this a better way or a different way, you know, based upon what they said. But the two parts to that, to the walk around was nine months after I took over, I had a uniform inspection and I wanted to go through. So I had about 200 people in my unit. Yeah. I wanted, and I made it a point that I wanted to walk through the whole ranks and call everybody in my command by their first name, which is highly unusual in the military. It's usually your rank and your last name. But I wanted to make it a point to call, Shake everybody's hand, look them in the eye and call them by their first name when, when everybody was there, you know, so it was 200 plus people and. But it took me nine months to.

Do that, to know their names, to.

Know everybody's individual first names of everybody that worked for me because you don't see these people all the time. And so I did that and I walk around and I think the irony of the story is I, I remembered every first name except one person.

Oh, no.

And that one person a couple months later was actually selected as my sailor of the Year, as my best performer.

What the heck. Yeah.

Yeah.

So here I just, just ironically or. That's wild.

It was, it was ironic and, and it was funny because I always remember going through and check calling everybody. And I was, as I was talking to one person, I was looking out my periphery.

Okay, who's next?

Three people trying to remember. When I got to this guy, I said, God, I don't know this guy's name. And I'm just shaking his hand. We're looking at each other. We started laughing and everybody around us was laughing. And I said, he goes, you don't know my first name, do you, sir? And I go, I don't have a clue. You are.

Oh, wow, the poor guy.

And he had a good comeback. It's like, because I haven't been in trouble and been in your office.

Okay. There's a refrain for you. I love it.

Yeah. But it's very, very ironic that he was my best sailor and the one guy I didn't remember.

I have to ask you this. I've never had a discussion with a military or naval person. The fact that you decided, I want to know these people's names, and that goes against protocol, calling them that. One, I love it. Two, did you have to get, like, permission to do that? Is that. What I love about that is there are rules, and rules are there for the betterment of all, but the hell with it. Sometimes a rule needs to be broken. Did anyone get upset that they heard you do that? Your. Your senior, your boss? Or did you have to get permission to do that? Or you just went, screw it, I'm doing it?

No, I just kind of decided on my own, took some initiatives, I guess, so to speak, and just decided to do it because it was important for me. It made me a better leader because it got me out of my shell. It opened me up to feedback and good and bad, but it also opened me up to things that I didn't know and maybe how we could do business better. And so what I used it for. I used it for information. And I would take it back. Yeah, And I would take it back, and I would go up, talk to my boss afterwards, you know, and we kind of changed things. Changed the culture, changed how we did business. That unit, just by me going down and getting direct feedback from the sailors on the deck plates.

It's very inspiring. It really is. Now, you have one more big tip that you talk about in the book, and I'm keeping you over two more minutes. Mental temperature. What is that? We have to expand it. We have to open it. What is that in your mind?

Well, part of the thing I learned on the walk around was how much I didn't know. And so especially the boat unit, a lot of maintenance things that I wasn't familiar with. I'm a Navy seal. I jump out of airplanes, I shoot guns. You know, what do I know about engine maintenance and trailers and stuff like that? And so I had to learn that. And what I would find every, excuse me, every Friday was, I didn't know. There was a lot I didn't know. But I was a leader who had to make command decisions. And so I, you know, as we say in the book, you're foolish if you think you know it all. And so you gotta. You always gotta keep your mind open your mental aperture, you know, keep the big picture over, because you're gonna. You're gonna. If you think you know it all, that's really kind of. There's a good. There's a good inclination at Huber says, you know, right around the corner, knocking on your door, you know, ready to come, strike you down. So.

And I think another part of this is so many people, men and women, don't want to appear vulnerable, don't want to appear that, you know, if you think, I don't know this and I'm your commanding officer, I'm gonna look like an ass. That may not be arrogance, but it's. It's a faulty way of thinking. Because if you think right, if you think you have to know everything to lead, you don't understand what leadership is.

Well, I think a lot of leaders that I've seen, you know, they get in that, you know, I'm supposed to know everything, you know, and I. At least from my own opinion, I think Bill would agree. You know, and that's what we try to put in the book, is that I think people appreciate when they see the leader doesn't know everything and they can educate them. And I couldn't agree. It's a great opportunity to learn. And.

And frankly, you don't know everything. So pretending that you do, you're the only one that you're fooling. Everybody underneath you knows you don't. So stop being so foolish. Stop being afraid.

Yeah, absolutely.

Stand up. So there's so many lessons here, John. First of all, your introversion, you. I'm not saying we all need to be extroverts, but we all do need to understand how to connect in a way that makes people feel heard. And you got out of your own way, you did things that were hard in order to connect and kind of change culture. It's so inspiring, so great.

Well, it was a hard lesson learned, but.

Well, you keep learning them, and you opened yourself up to some more vulnerability. You're getting a doctorate, right?

Yeah.

That ain't easy.

No, it's not. I was a little bored, and a unique opportunity presented itself, just like seals and some other things in life. And I was like, hey, why not? Let's go for it. So, yeah, I started a doctoral. Executive doctoral program at the University of Pennsylvania.

And what is it in what.

What's the Chief Learning Officer program? So a lot about talent development, a lot of stuff you already Know, right now. Yeah. And so it's, it's, it's very cold, very humbling. You know, I've been in a classroom in a long time, and it ain't easy, but, you know, it's. It's hard, but it's very cool. It's very rewarding. And, you know, I just catch myself every now and again going, well, you know, I started at West Virginia. Now I'm at an Ivy League school. So who would have I done good?

Oh, man, the story's so, so, so inspiring and so fast.

I got a long way to go. But it's very cool. It's very challenging, it's very daunting, but I'm glad I did.

It sounds like a perfect place for you. So where can people learn more? Where do they get your book? Where do they hear about your workshops? Where do they learn? Where do they go?

You learn about me Twitter at Coach Havlick LinkedIn. John Havlick. I have a website, coach havelik.com last page. You can always, you know, tells my story. And if you want me to tell more stories, there's there, it's a page there for requests for the book. LeadershipKiller.com is the website Bill and I set up. You can go there. You can get the book on Amazon. We just released it on Audible a couple months ago, so the audiobook is out now. And so there's the opportunities to get a hold of me, get a hold book. And then Bill works at Giant Leap Consulting.

How wonderful. So I think the world of you both. When I read your stuff and hear you, it's. It's what needs to be said that isn't being said. And so I, for one, am incredibly grateful. Are you being vulnerable and telling the truth as you see it?

Well, I mean, that's part of leadership, is passing on what you've learned, you know, so I'd like to share stories and, you know, I don't. Good and bad. So thank you for the opportunity today and thanks for the Forbes article. It was great. So fun and, you know, thank you, Kathy.

Come back again, John, Come back.

Absolutely.

Coach, everybody. Are you not inspired? Wow. And I think we've. We've uncovered things here. What, how we can overcome our ways that block connection, how we can look at arrogance and not just what a narcissist looks like. But, I mean, I think one question is, how is my hubris in the way, maybe. And another thing is getting help from underneath your level, your level and higher. I mean, it's everywhere. If you ask people you trust. Can you tell me what you think I'm blocked at? You're going to get a lot of feedback. And, yeah, no, we're not going to catch every ball that's thrown thrown at us. But we need to we need to get out of our own selves, open that mental aperture. So there's so much here, I hope, inspires you do. Check out everything about John and Bill Treasure and the new book and the audio version and let us know. Reach out to us on social. We're everywhere. We'd love to hear from you. And we'd love to hear your challenges, too, wherever you are. We'd love to hear. I hope you have a fantastic week of Finding Brave, and we will see you next time. And thanks again, John.

Thanks, Kathy.