Finding Brave 122: Transform Your Ability To Succeed Through the Proximity Principle, Ken Coleman

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Finding Brave. I'm Kathy Caprino. Hope you're having an awesome, awesome, awesome week full of bravery. And I am beyond excited. I got some chills to have Ken Coleman on the show today. Ken, thank you. You've just come off 100 hours of radio. Not quite, but close. So I really, I can't thank you enough for taking time to be here.

Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm privileged. I'm honored and super excited about our conversation.

I can't wait. And we are talking about how the proximity principle helps you succeed. And you know, I'm pouring over your stuff and loving it. We're in the same field in a lot of ways. And I remember hearing you say, this is not about like this instant how do we succeed? It's about opportunity, how to open opportunities. And so I can't wait to dig in. But people, let me tell you about Ken. Impressive stuff. Ken is the number one national best selling author and nationally syndicated radio host. Don't you have a whole radio thing going on of the Ken Coleman Show? Pulling from your own personal struggles, missed opportunities, and missed career successes, Coleman helps people discover what they were born to do, which is what people want. Right. And provides practical steps to make their dream job a reality. The Ken Coleman show is a caller driven career show. I haven't done that yet. I would love to. And helps listeners who are stuck in a job they hate or searching for something more out of their career. And we're talking about your second book, the proximity principle, the proven strategy that will lead to the career you love. All right, let us dig in. Ken, first of all, what is the proximity principle? And you know, I love to talk. You know, I became a therapist after my corporate life. I love to dig into why this matters to you. Why? I'm guessing whatever we write about, it's often lessons we didn't know in time. So can you tell me where this came from and what it is and what we have to understand?

Sure, Kathy. So the proximity principle says in order to do what you want to do, you've got to be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening. So if you think about that statement, it's pretty simple. The formula is the right people plus the right places equals opportunity. That's how you get where you want to go. We're talking, of course, about work. So in the work context, you can fill in the blank. In order to do what you want to do blank, you got to be around people that are doing it. These Are practitioners people that are winning in that field or in that specific role? And you got to be in places where it's happening. Why is this the case? Because this is where the opportunity happens. You know the old colloquialism, well, he was in the right place at the right time, or she was in the right place at the right time. It just kind of all cosmically happened. No, it didn't, because here's what I know. If you're not in the right place, the right time can happen. So they don't just kind of just cosmically meet. The universe doesn't just do you a favor. It's just a bunch of garbage. And it's going to lead you to a life of frustration because you're sitting around waiting for something to find you. And every successful person that I know, man or woman, doesn't matter the field, they didn't sit around and wait for opportunity to tap them on the shoulder. They continually showed up and put themselves in the right place or around the right people, and then opportunity showed up there. So timing happens when we are in the right place. It's like a train station. If I want to go catch a train, Kathy, I go to the train station, right? So I get there, and I know that the train is eventually going to show up. And that's what I've tried to do here and with this little principle is demystify the climb up your Mount Everest, if Mount Everest is the analogy. And I love to use that as your dream job. Work that you absolutely love, work that you're really good at, that creates results that matter to you. And so that is what it is. Now, why do I share this and why am I so passionate about it? This is a situation where I was the kid who always was ambitious. I was just born that way. I really believe ambition is a gift. It has an ugly side to it. I believe that in its rawest form, it is a wonderful, beautiful thing. The desire to do something great and to make a difference. And we all have that same desire. But for me, I was always very, very driven. So the reason that I share this message and I do what I do, is sure, I've learned some things along the way, but ultimately, I want to give this gift away, this gift of clarity. And that's what this is, this little principle. If you use it and make it a habit in your life, you're never, ever going to struggle to find opportunity. In fact, opportunity will come knock on your door, and you will continually progress and advance by understanding this powerful Little principle. So I wanted to share it with people because it's what I used to. To start in a whole new field of broadcasting without a degree, still don't have it. And at 31 and get there at 43 now, you know, it took that.

That's time. That didn't happen in three seconds.

No. And it could have happened faster, by the way, if I had learned some of the things that I'm now sharing with the reader. So there is the story.

Can I. This is bugging me over here. Can I dimensionalize this a minute and use kind of some real life, really break it down? Ken. So you're in career coaching. I'm in career coaching. I want to give this example. When I first started writing my first book ten years ago, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. And you know, I've been an ambitious person, achievement oriented person. But I've made a mistake. And I think it's. I wasn't listening to the proximity. I didn't understand it. I really thought, I know everything there is to know about a broken career because I had one. But I was like 2, 2ft out of it. And I went to an editorial consultant. She said, look, you're a fine writer. That's not the problem. But this isn't your big idea. You need to do research. And I was like, what do you mean? And back then, you know, it was like, go to the library with index cards. I was crushed. But what I realized, I used to do market research. It occurred to me, wait a minute, I can talk to 100 women around the country who've overcome professional crisis, get their thoughts. But there was this gap between what I understood I needed and what I thought I could do. Are you following me? I really thought I had all the answers. And it was only in speaking to 100 women around the country who I didn't know, who had done something inspiring, did that book emerge. So would you say that's part of the proximity principle?

Oh, well, there's no question. I mean, so you know the backstory behind what I did when I gave you that kind of quick timeline of 31 to 43, even in the last five years at Ramsey Solutions, I just handed over the Entrez Leadership program, which is one of the top leadership podcasts in the country. And I hosted that for Dave Ramsey before I launched the Ken Coleman Show. And before that I hosted the Catalyst Leadership podcast, which was a big faith based leadership podcast. So to give you an idea, just in the last five years at Ramsey Solutions, I've interviewed 368 leaders in a five year period. That's a tremendous amount of conversations with the best and brightest. Then before that, I probably done double that over an eight to nine year period for Catalyst. So I'm somewhere in the thousand plus range of deep dive conversations with leaders and high achievers from the coaching world to the military world to political field. So I've been sitting knee to knee and we're talking about conversations that were anywhere from 30 to 60 to 90 minutes. So the amount of minutes I have logged, getting a master class, if you will, from the greatest achievers, plus my own experience. So, you know, I had a seven year journey.

So what you're saying is you didn't come out of the chute going, I can be a career leadership expert with the classes I took in the books I read.

No, in fact, to be honest with you, I don't like the word expert.

What do you like better?

Guide. I'm a guide because an expert, you know, is, it's just a, it's a cheap word. Experts are a dime a dozen right now. Who says you're the expert?

And how about influencer? I mean, well, you know, I've got.

An audience, you know, you are one.

But I wouldn't want to hear you say you are one. You know, like, well, put it in their tagline.

I'm like, that's right, that's right.

That's a thing that happens, not a thing that you, I don't know.

Well, you, you, you know, it's like somebody saying they're a leader and they look around, nobody's following. So, you know, I mean, are people coming to you? Are people coming to you? Are they receiving something that is making them better after they leave you? And again, to me, that's a guide showing you the way. So, so to answer your question, I had, I had a lot of research, tons of research. You talk about talking to 100 women. You know, I've talked to thousands of high achievers about what they did to become successful. And then of course, I had my own journey to draw from. And so this little principle came to me one day on the way into the office. It wasn't something I tried to come up with. In fact, I was preparing mentally at a stoplight for the first interview I was going to do that day, this is about two years ago, and young guy was interviewing for his, for his podcast. And I say, yes, every podcast request, everyone. And so I'm looking at a stoplight, I go, oh, I got an interview soon as I get in the office. And the last question on this young guy's list of questions he sent to me ahead of time was, if you could boil down your success in broadcasting, starting from scratch in your 30s, to where you are now, what would be that one thing? And at first I was like, this is a bad question. As a question asker. This is not a good question. That's impossible. It's not just one thing. Then I got over myself and I was like, all right, if I was going to give one thing, what would it be? Well, the light turns green, and I kid you not, the two miles between that light and the next light I hit. I began to think back on my journey. And I started just kind of in my mind, I was thinking, well, I was just really, really diligent. And then I got good at it, about putting myself around the right people in the right places. And I went, oh, that's good. I used to work for John Maxwell, by the way.

So I was like, oh, my God, I just interviewed him.

Oh, yeah, John.

He's an amazing man.

Yeah. So John thinks in principles, right? And so I was immersed in that world for years. So I was like, oh, that's good. The right people plus the right places, that equals opportunity. That's good. And then I go, oh, man, that's that. I think that's. What is that? What's the word that really describes what I just said? Oh, it's proximity. And then five minutes later, I get the proximity principle, and I pulled my phone out, I still have the audio recording, and I hit the play button. I went, the proximity principle says, in order to do what you want to do, got to be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening. And I'm not kidding you, because I have a daily radio show, I could test all these ideas out. And so I started talking about it when it was relevant to callers, and the listening audience grabbed onto it. And only because they grabbed onto it did I realize it was a good teaching tool. And the rest is history.

And thank goodness for this young fellow who asked that question that you're, you know, immediately, that's not a good one. Oh, I guess it was a good one. All right, now let's use this as an example. Career coaching. Somebody wants to start out and be a consultant and a coach, and they maybe had another career. So, you know, one thing I think of when you talk about proximity, yes, you do talk about the zip code, but the world is large and we have access to people all over the world. So can you tell us, let's say you wanted to be a renowned career coach. Who do you. How do you think you approach getting in proximation with people that can change you? How or.

Well, that. That's actually pretty simple to your point. You know, we talk about the producer and the professional in the book. And so those are the two examples to answer your question. So the producer would be a actually successful career coach in your area. So that's 30 minutes or 90 minutes, whatever. But you got to find somebody who's actually winning as a career coach. And just a quick asterisk here because this is part of. I would give this advice before I answer to your question. You better understand that being a career coach is an entrepreneurial venture. There is no firm of career coaches where you're going to go impress them like a law firm. And you get in the building and they got all the business coming your way and you're making a really nice salary. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Understand that being a successful career coach is going to take time because it requires you coach one person and they keep coming back for sessions and then they tell somebody else. This is a brick by brick by brick by brick entrepreneurial venture. I would point that out. All right, so now we got to go to the producer. Why? Because the producer represents somebody who's winning in the field. They've done what I just described. They had the guts to start, they had the intestinal fortitude to stay long enough to where this became a full time business. And so they're not just good at the coaching part, they're actually good business people because this is a business. And so you've got to understand what all is involved. So I want you having lunch with them or coffee with them and you're asking them everything. I mean, just picture this. If you were going to do a college or high school term paper on what is a career coach? What does it take to succeed as a career coach and what are all the facets in running the career coach business? What would you ask? And that's your agenda for coffee or lunch? Let's not make this too difficult, right? Because here's what we want to do. This is the process of what I call clarify and verify. So in getting all of those things, I just said, what does it take? What are the qualifications? Who. Who is the best at giving that certification to be a career coach? What are the best certification programs out there? What's the most reputable? What are the sleaze balls, you know, all this kind of stuff. What does the business look like? How'd you market? How'd you get started? What was, you know, all the stuff that I just gave you in that term paper. You can figure the questions to ask, but once you get all those answers, now we've gotten clear, so I've clarified what all is involved. What does the day look like? What do they love most? What do they like the least? All right, now once I've got that information, I'm able to verify do I really want to do this right? And so that's what I would tell you to do. And that's the idea of the law of the zip code, which is once you have that information, then everything you need to get started is already around you. So you would begin starting it on the side. It's not a full time business. I would not leave your current job because you're probably going to starve. Your first year is your worst year. It's just going to be. And then I would jump to the professional. So the professional would be you listening to your podcast, listening to the Ken Coleman show. Why don't you listen to how I coach callers and when you listen to how I take real callers and I have no prep ahead of time. This is all real time. So listen to how I handle it. Listen to my methodology. Do you agree with it? Do you disagree with it? You know, there's four clarifying questions. When you listen and engage, you read books, listen to podcasts, or watch or listen to shows of career coaches. These are people that are at the top of their field. They're winning. Then you're asking what's right, what's wrong, what's missing, what's confused. Those are great clarifying questions. So you begin to come up with your own way of doing it. You're not going to plagiarize you or plagiarize me, but you can steal like an artist. And all artists are inspired by others. So I'm trying to be quick with that advice, but that's what I would tell you.

All right, now I got a question for you. I talk about, you know, we say a lot of the same things, but you have incredibly wonderful language. I did this where I left my corporate job and said, f it all, I'm done with all this crap. And then I became a marriage and family therapist and I did what you're talking about, but I missed one step. I got clear on what it takes by unfortunately only interviewing five top therapists who never had to take one cent of insurance, who had bestselling books. And so I scoot away going, woo hoo, I can do it. Number two, I never shadowed them and understand, understood the living reality of working with rape, incest, pedophilia, suicidality. Yeah, I was a therapist for three years and woke up and said I can't continue. So there's a lot of nuance in what you say. And I know you, you know, this is nothing new. But what I want people to understand is when you really want something, sometimes you have rose colored glasses in terms of I gotta be the best Ken Coleman I can be. But they don't really process what the living reality will be. Can you tolerate risk? Can you not make money for a year? Can you sell? Because every entrepreneurial endeavor is a selling.

Can you deal with sucking for a while until you get good at it?

Can you go from being a VP in corporate to you don't know anything and be terrible?

Absolutely.

Part of this is get really real, get tough with yourself. Right. Would you agree with all of that?

Yeah, you're absolutely, absolutely spot on. And that's why I talk about sitting with people and really understanding, like peeling the onion all the way. Here's what I know when I talk to people in person, at live events or on the air and I say, are you willing to do what it takes? And they'll go, absolutely. Right. But then you go, are you willing to wait as long as it takes? And all of a sudden it's like, yeah, yeah, well wait a second because that's the back half. I'm not interested in somebody saying I'm willing to do what it takes. Well, sure you are, because you're looking at me or you're looking at the unicorn person who's done all the work and you're seeing where they sit now. So you're looking at their position now and you're not looking at their journey to the position, you're just seeing where they are now and status is really sexy. It's like, I want that. I'm in for that. I'm all in. Are you? Because that doesn't happen overnight. And there's a whole lot of stuff that you have to endure in the process. The idea of metamorphosis, right? The transformation that has to take place for you to go from where you are now to where you want to be. See, nobody talks about that. Right? And so, you know, you know, what you have to understand is that there is a struggle that is ahead. And so that's why I Say, are you willing to wait as long as it takes. Because I want the person who goes, yep, Ken, if I know I can get there and I know I'm going to arrive, but it takes seven to nine years, I'll do it. Now that's the person I know that's going to make it. Because they're the ones who go, I know I'm supposed to do it and I'm not going to quit because everybody goes, yeah, I'll do whatever it takes. If it happens pretty quickly, if it doesn't happen pretty quickly, oh boy. I got to wrestle fear and doubt and I'm not sure if I'm up for that.

And I love that you're given years. You know, I've been at this 10 years and there's some, whatever you want to call it, influence, celebrity. That isn't what people want to think. And they want to think, yeah, she might have taken seven years, but I think I can do it faster. They don't really often look at a reality. Would you agree with that?

I agree. And listen, I'm all for you trying to beat my record. You know, it took me seven years to get the national radio show on Sirius XM and then another year and a half to go national syndication. It took me nine and a half years to get a best selling book. My first book didn't sell hardly at all. So I want people to understand that if you can beat my timeline, fantastic. But I'm not interested in your timeline. I'm interested in my timeline. That means I want you to be interested in your timeline, not my timeline. So don't compare your journey to my journey. You know, none of us know what the timing is. And so what I would say is that if you're not willing to endure pain, then I would not pursue it. So the, if you do some word study, I'm a word nerd. I think words really, really matter. And I'm a word junkie.

I see that.

And so if you go do research, you all can go do it, but go do the research on the root words. The Germans have a word and the Greeks had a word for passion. And they're both very, you know, they're different languages. But the root word, word of passion means basically to struggle. And so if you hear this idea of what am I passionate about? Well, the idea of the word passion means to struggle. And what that means is that you are willing to endure pain, if you will, to then get what it is that you're going after. So it's not La la la la la la. Like the Smurfs, my favorite cartoon growing up. It's not that way at all. The path, full of struggle, and it is full of pain. And so if you are willing to endure pain, okay, whether that be impatience with time, financial struggle, having to let go of certain relationships who aren't coming with you or who are holding you back, that's all part of the deal. And if you're willing to endure that. Now, that's your.

Now we're talking.

Now I'm like, okay, you're going to make it. And I'll tell you this. You've probably heard this. It's a classic old story. It's all over the Internet. The old man who walks up on the cocoon. Have you heard this story?

No.

It's so great. I feel like I got to share this with your audience, because I think there's some people right now who are really, really struggling. And you're going, I don't know if it's worth it. This old man is walking down a country road, and he catches some movement in his peripheral vision. He looks over, and he sees cocoon. Just the slightest wobble at the end of the cocoon, and he gets a little closer, and he sees the little butterfly legs, right, have poked out the bottom of the cocoon. And he's fascinated by this because he could tell that this butterfly is trying to get out of the cocoon. And so he's looking a little closer, and he sees the legs stop for a while, and he wonders if something wrong. And then the legs start to kick slowly, again and again. The struggle continues. He begins to feel bad for the butterfly, so he reaches down and he gently opens up the cocoon, and the butterfly falls out, but it's not strong enough yet to fly and dies just seconds later. An old man, in his desire to help has actually weakened and killed the butterfly. And so understand that what's happening in that cocoon is that butterfly in its struggle to break out of the cocoon and is building strength. It needs to fly and flourish. And absent of the struggle, you'll never have the strength to fly and flourish. And understand this, too. The Greeks, the word metamorphosis, that's that the Greek word means transformation. And in our transformation, it is the struggle that allows us to transform. I just got to give that to you. So if you're asking right now, is the struggle worth it, I'd say absolutely. Because there is no strength.

There is no what?

Absent of the struggle, there is no strength. Absent of the struggle. How is it that you think you are going to sustain and maintain if you have never had to struggle? You won't have any strength when life throws its curves and its twists and turns at you. So my point here is embrace the struggle. And certainly if you're in the career coaching business and you got to sit across from somebody, how in the world are you going to have anything worthwhile to pour out to them if you've never struggled? I love it.

I love it. And also, as you grow to this ideal image you think you want, there are things you don't have, like boundaries, like the ability to say no, like the ability to recognize someone who's trying to use you and take advantage of you because you need these things. And they don't come because you want them. They come from the struggle. I love it.

That's right.

I got a question for you, and it's a little away from your proximity principle. You said you work with John and John Maxwell, and he's a principal person. One thing that you're amazing at is like, you're at a stoplight and something comes to you where you can break down a massive amount of information and advice and come up with a statement, a phrase, a principle. I feel like the top influencers in our world are able to do something like that. Nancy Duarte, who I just interviewed, took, you know, the best presentations in the world and, you know, looked at the data of those, and people that really move people forward know how to break things down. Do you have a suggestion for people who aren't good at that?

That's a really, really interesting question. You're absolutely right. And what you're describing is the ability to take the complex and simplify it.

And come up with a word about simplicity.

That is exactly what's going on. So the key to solving complexity is always simplicity. I don't care what business that you're in. You know, the analogy I like to use here is if you've ever been like me and you've had to restring that obnoxious string in your weed eater, you know, and it gets all tangled and you're like, are you kidding me? Well, there's no complex solve for that. It's sitting down on my butt in the driveway and beginning the tedious process of untangling, following one string here and here and here, then we get an untangle. And so that's what that is. And I think that that's a gift. I think you're born with that natural, raw talent, and then you can hone it, you know, so if you've got the gift of discernment is certainly one of those gifts that allows you to do that. The ability to communicate clearly so that people go, okay. It felt really complex because I was dealing with all these factors, and you went in and found the one factor that everything else is built on. And I'm over here worried about all this. And you just told me that really what I'm dealing with is doubt. Because when I was in the eighth grade, I had a situation in school and the teacher I admired just totally devastated me accidentally. And you're like, oh my gosh, can you read my mail? Right. So the idea here is it's like that comes with practice. And I do think you have to have the strength. So, you know, it's a really, really good question. I do think you can develop the skill of simplifying, but I think if you don't have the natural ability, I think you're going to be limited because I do think that is. I would call that an actually natural talent strength that can be sharpened into a skill.

Can I say this and see what you think?

What do you think on that? I don't know. I think because there's some people that are gifted in that area and some people that aren't, they think that way.

Right. Can I offer this and see what you think? I'm using career coaching because we both do it, but I think this applies. I think if you want to really help people with ideas that move them forward, you have to split your brain in half. So when you're, for instance, coaching someone, you have to not only be present for them, but watch what you attend to. So if I coach someone and you coach someone, you're going to pick up, because I'm a therapist, because I'm a this, because of that, I'm going to pick up a different train. And what's going to be on my radar is different. I look for power gaps. I don't look for strengths. I'm looking for where you're broken down. Because when I help you close that, you soar. You might look at something completely different. So look at what you attend to and begin to focus on. Why am I looking at that? What does that give me? What kind of information? And then teach that your teachable point of view. Would you think that that would be helpful?

Yeah, I think that's good. But I think what you asked me is slightly different. I think now that I've had a chance to listen to what you said, I would offer this. I'm still going to hold to the fact that I think you're limited in your ability to be a simplifier with the way that you think, But I think you can practice. So here's what I would say. I have found that in whether I'm doing interviews with leading thinkers for an audience or I'm engaging in questions for my audience on my radio show, that the skill can be developed to a certain point by simply always trying to go a little bit deeper. So you're ultimately trying to get to the why. Why are you experiencing doubt? Well, because of this. Well, how did it make you feel? So if you can keep going deeper and deeper. So the key to simplifying complexity is to go to the lowest common denominator. Right? You got to get as deep as you can. And I think if you can learn that process. I do think. Now, I love this question because I've never been asked that before. I stumped you.

You didn't think I would.

I stumped you. This is good. So as I'm wrestling with it, I do now believe that you can get better at simplifying and being a thinker that way, who simplifies things. But I will tell you this. It is directly related to your ability to listen. And to your point, you got to be listening for things. So when somebody gives you something as a career guide or coach or whatever, you better be really darn good at listening. Not just with your ears, but your eyes. You've got to watch how somebody reacts to a piercing question. Because I can hear things on the phone. I can hear it over the phone now, but I've gotten to a point where I'm sure.

Yeah.

I mean, I've done thousands of phone calls, okay? So I'm at a point now where I can hear somebody smile, and so can you, you know, but when you're in. When you're face to face with somebody, you better listen with your eyes and you better listen with your ears, because you can see how a question hits somebody and how do they react to it.

So I will say, Ken, would you agree with this? You're listening, and there's a space there. You're not just trying to be your expert, cool radio self. If you can't listen with your soul, you can't really help.

Well, again, my job is to be the sounding board. And I am of the belief that the person has the answers. I don't think that I have any answers for anybody on my show. In fact, all you gotta do is listen to it, you go, okay, this dude, he's saying exactly what he does. This isn't some romantic idea. I tell people all the time, you have the answers. It's my job to pull them out of you. And so I'm not effective if I'm trying to be super expert guy and be super impressive. I'm effective when I'm using questions as a scalpel and I'm digging deep, and then I repeat back to them what I hear, and then they confirm. So as a great career coach or guide, it is in the listening that the breakthrough happens, not in you talking. That's what I would. That's what I would say.

I know I have three minutes left with you. What's the most important thing of all the career misery you've heard, Ken? If you can break it down to the thing that is missing in the way these people are approaching it or their lives or their mindset. I know this is like an amateur.

This is not going to surprise you, but it is without question. Fear. Yeah, but it shows up in different ways. The fear of failing, the fear of peers, what other people are going to say if we go for something that seems unsafe or unsmart. The fear of rejection, the fear of missing out, you know, or my ship has sailed. Fear would be number one. Doubt would be a close second. Those are two. Two different things. I don't have time to break that down. But fear is, without question, the number one thing that holds my audience back and holds people back is fear. And fear's a liar. And you got to help people understand that fear is lying. So what is fear saying? So I always make callers, when I know that they're afraid, I make them say it in front of a live audience. What are you afraid of? Tell me the thing. Tell me right now. Say it. What are you afraid of? And they say it. And I go, okay, if fear's a liar, then what's the truth? And so when we begin to see how fear is all up here in our head, it's all up here. It starts here, and then it seeps into our heart, and it will absolutely lock us up. And so we've got to change people's mindset. And when we can change the way people think, only then can we change the way they act. And when that new action begins to take hold, then the feeling corresponds with it. And what the feeling does is the heart kind of go, whoo, I've been telling you, right? And so the brain and the heart begin to align. But it is the Mindset and the mental diet and the mental nutrition. That is what helps you overcome the thing that's holding you back. And I would tell you that it is, without question, fear. And I'm fighting fear. That's who I fight every day.

Oh, I love it. I know that you resonate with John because he was a minister, a pastor. You have a ministerial way with you. Like, I get mesmerized just listening. Well, what a gift. What a gift you have.

Well, I think. I think what you're sensing is an overwhelming desire to share a message that is so deep within me, that is for other people. And I just. I just can't give enough of it.

Away inexhaustible for you. I can feel it is.

It is. I feel like I'm giving away belief, and I feel like I'm a belief dispenser, you know? And so I'm very passionate about it because I know it works. I know it's true of everybody.

Would you ever use the word spiritual for what you do?

Oh, yeah. Listen, I'll just tell you right now, I am an unashamed Christian. I don't subscribe to a denomination. I don't subscribe to any kind of theological battle. I wouldn't argue with anybody for two seconds. I know what I believe, and I believe that we were created. I believe that. That you and I are no accident, that God created us. David in Psalms writes, for you knew me in my innermost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb. And David uses the analogy in the ancient scriptures of knitting. And that's what I talk about every day. If you think of knitting, it's. What is it? It's two instruments, and you have two pieces of thread coming together. And I believe that God created us all with talent and passion. Talents. What we look, what we really do well. And passion is what moves us. It's what we love to do, is what we love to engage in. And so, if you want to know, I mean, it is my theology that informs my philosophy, which informs my methodology. So I'm not ashamed of that at all, because I believe that God created us all.

There are not many people that make me not even want to talk, that just make me want to listen, but you're one of them. Ken, I can't. Thank you for being here.

Well, I appreciate you. Thanks for having me. It was good fun.

So fun. All right, folks, if you weren't inspired, I give up. But I know you were, so we'd love to hear from you wherever you see this, please. What is your passion? Are you willing to do it? Are you willing to face the fear and do the work and maybe it takes 10 years. Are you willing? We would love to help you. Let us know and have an incredible brave week and I will see you next time. And thanks again, Ken.