Finding Brave 132: Key Ways To Build Psychological Safety as a Leader, with Timothy Clark

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Finding Brave this week. How are you? I believe you're getting this around July and we are not recording in July. We're recording a bit in the middle of the COVID situation pandemic. I pray that when you hear this, life has changed for the better and there's a lot of positive going on. But we are here to find the positive in wherever we are. And I am so, so excited to bring you Dr. Timothy Clark today. And we're going to be talking all about how leaders and managers can build psychological safety in their cultures and in the way they communicate and behave. And it's an important, ever so important topic. But even more so, Tim, today, wouldn't you say?

I would say so, yeah. The more the ambiguity, the more the uncertainty. Right. The more the turbulence in the environment, the more psychological safety becomes important.

So true. So true. So folks, let's jump right in and understand and I hope you're hearing this in a number of ways in terms of how you are dealing with the people that you're working with. Your colleagues, your staff, your teams, but also what you're looking for. You know, let's make this really human. You're a person too, even if you're leading thousands. So I'm hoping that speaks to you in both ways. All right, let me tell you about Tim. Dr. Timothy Clark is the founder and CEO of Leader Factor, a leadership consulting and training organization that works with executive teams around the world. An Oxford trained. We were just talking about that. What a blessing. Social scientist and sought after international authority on organizational change, Dr. Clark is the author of five books on leadership, including his newest release that came out in March, I think. Right. The four Stages of Psychological Defining the Path to Inclusion and Innovation. All right, let's dig in. Can you first, even, Tim, define. What do you mean about psycho. How do you define psychological safety? What is it?

That's a good place to start. Let's, let's, let's do a basic definition. Psychological safety means that it's not expensive to be yourself.

It's not expensive to be yourself.

What do I mean by that? It's not socially, emotionally, politically, economically expensive to be yourself in a social unit, in a social setting, in a social context. If, if we perceive we've. And we've all been there, if we perceive that it is expensive in one of those ways, then what do we do? We're not ourselves. So we change our behavior. We change our behavior and then we're not able to perform at our best and we're not Able to engage at our best. And so you can see the ramifications of this. The ramifications are profound. Every organization. So let's just start there. That's a very basic definition. Now we can, what we can talk more about is the anatomy of this concept and how it works and how it progresses. But that's the basic definition. If someone pushes the fear button, then what that does in all humans, it triggers what we call the self censoring instinct. And we all have one. So if someone triggers that, activates that self censoring instinct, then we. What do we do? We retreat. We recoil. We manage personal risk. We're in a loss prevention, self preservation mode of behavior and life. Who wants to live that way? Nobody wants to live that way.

Can I highlight what you're saying a little bit? It's funny, lately I get a little teary eyed with my guests and I think it's because it hits home so much for me. So can I dimensionalize and see if I'm on the right page here about what you're talking about? I had an 18 year corporate career and I would say, Tim, probably 80% of the time I was doing what you're talking about. There was a cost to me being me. And I learned the cost in a naive way. I started in the working world, being me, and felt punished, felt isolated, felt like an imposter. So when you call it the expense, I think another word for that is the cost of being me. That right. And you know, my book is coming out in July, actually the most powerful. You and I talk all about what women experience. And I'm interested if you see a difference in what you're talking about. But for the women I've worked with and met, there's a huge cost to being a woman in the workplace. Do you see psychological safety differently for men and women? Have you looked at that at all?

Yes, well, it depends on the organization. Right. But gender based differences are very evident in many, many organizations. And this is a vestige, this is a legacy from the past where that has been true in many organizations. And so we're now seeing really an ethical and a moral force at work now in organizations that is more powerful than anything I've ever seen to remove that. Because what we really have, Kathy, is a legacy since the Industrial Revolution of accepting unacceptable behavior in organizations. So often we have normalized bullying behavior, harassing behavior, public shaming behavior. What are we doing? And so what's interesting now is you got millennials that are pouring into the workforce. You got Gen Z right behind them and they're coming into organizations and they're looking around and they're saying, hang on a second, what are you guys doing? What is it that you're tolerating? A timeout? I'm not doing that.

I know, thank goodness.

So especially your top talent. You will bleed out your top talent if you're doing this and they're going to say adios very quickly. They're not putting up with that.

Thank you. Thank you, universe. So can you, let's look at it two different ways. If you are someone for whom there's a huge expense to be themselves, how do you see it showing up? What happens? I'm guessing they go underground, they don't contribute, they feel alienated, they may rebel. What other things are you seeing? What are the implications of a staff that can't be themselves? That there's no safety.

Right. So we see patterns. So number one pattern, your most talented people, they're gone.

They leave. They quit.

They're gone. Yeah, they'll leave the organization. They won't put up with it because they have a great desire to go make a difference. They know they're capable and so they're, they're the first ones off the, off the boat. Your mediocre performers do some interesting things. So it's a combination where they'll, some will put their heads down and just put up with it. A lot of people do that, Right. Others will stay and rather than be passive and paralyzed, they'll get a little subversive, right. So they'll fight against what they're experiencing because they don't like it. And so they're going to try to do what they can in a subversive way. Your low performers, unfortunately, they're the ones that are going to put their heads down and they're going to accept this, this as, and they're going to normalize it. Let me give you an example. So I was called into a mid sized organization not long ago and I interviewed the entire executive staff, about 10 people and they had, they had an incredibly toxic culture because of the CEO. He was abusive and he was outwardly consistently abusive. And I literally in my interview said, what? Why are you putting up with this? And they said, well, it's just the way it is. So we've kind of gotten used to it. We've kind of gotten used to being, you know, we've learned how to manage it.

I need to ask you, can I ask you a question?

Yeah.

I keep, you know, listening to what you're Saying and laying it out on the landscape of what I see, I think, would you agree that it's not just low performers that tolerate it, it's people who are afraid, people who feel they have no choice. So they may be brilliant, but like for women, for instance, not to beat that, you know, drum too, too hard. But I see that incredibly brilliant, talented women stay and accept it because they have internalized the idea that they don't have the power to fight it. So let me just ask, in that situation, I'm guessing was the whole leadership team male? Probably. Or a good portion of them, doesn't matter. But I'm just wondering 2/3. So when they said, well, we've got to put up with it if you peel the onion, isn't it because they feel like if they stood up to this bully and I bet you he was a narcissist. Narcissism is everywhere here in the. But they felt like they would be punished if they did anything. Isn't that why most people don't do anything?

Sure. So there's fear of retribution.

Right.

But there's also those who have a stake in the system and they don't want to jeopardize their own personal stake, their own upward mobility potential.

Oh dear.

So the structure of incentives has pulled them in.

In other words, they're kind of prostituting themselves for the money.

So that happens. And so then they perpetuate those prevailing norms in the organization because they're now part of it. They've been co. Opted.

Do they know, do they know what they're doing?

Sure, they know what they're doing, but it does, it's a gradual, it's a slippery slope. Right. And then they become part of that and they don't stand up, they condone it. Right. So, and a leader, by virtue of your position, male or female, you're never a neutral actor. You can't be neutral. So you're, you're either going to lead the way or you're going to get in the way. You got to make a choice, but you're not going to be neutral. And so even if you're being passive, you've made a choice. Right. And so you're passivity, your lack of action is really, that is an expression of support for the status quo. Unfortunately it is. And so a lot of people do that.

I could talk to you for hours. That is power gap number five of the seven damaging power gaps. My book is about acquiescing instead of saying stop to what is wrong, to mistreatment and you know, I feel that for many, they feel they don't have the power to say stop, but I'm so interested in this situation you're talking about. What did you do? Did you take on this, the CEO, what and how'd it go? And then I have a follow up question about in order for us not to create a culture like that, we have to be self aware. And in a minute I want to ask you what percentage of the people that you deal with or have ever met are self aware? But anyway, question one, what did you do with this person, this leader?

So we had a very candid conversation and I basically called him out on it and he did not invite me back. But see, what we're talking about, Kathy, is really the first, it's the first stage of psychological safety, which we call inclusion safety. Inclusion safety means that you feel included. It means that you are accepted, you feel a sense of belonging. Now, as I explain in the book, inclusion safety is a human right. If you're human and you're harmless, you're entitled to it. You don't earn it, you're owed.

It's a given right, being human, period.

And the reason is some people can't get this straight in their heads. So I explain the principle in the book. Worth precedes worthiness. Worth is about your inherent worth, right? It's not about your performance, it's not about your attributes. It doesn't matter what demographic or psychographic attributes you have, you're entitled to inclusion based on your membership in the human species, period. End Tim Then we can talk about worthiness, but that's a different conversation. I feel like worth down first. And then we understand that in any social collective we have an, we have an obligation to invite each other into our societies. That's our obligation.

Can I bring up a word that. I can't wait to see how you'll respond, but I'm about to tomorrow give a. A webinar that people have asked me to do on spirituality and small business growth. And it's not a religious concept, in my view, it's what you're talking about. It's to me, what you're sharing is a spiritual view. Do you, do you see it that way? And maybe you don't use that language or never would. Do you see it as well?

I do, yeah, I do. But regardless of your religious or your metaphysical tradition, it doesn't matter what it is, right? I think we can all agree that we have inherent worth and so that worth is the basis for inclusion safety. Now, the other thing that I talk about in the book that's very, very important to understand is that we've been running our societies for centuries, if not millennia, based on what we call theories of superiority. In other words, I'm better than you on some basis. Those are all faults. But we. The myth of superiority. We justify superiority based on race, gender, education, income, culture, religion. It goes on and on and on. It's all rubbish. It's all false. So we got to clear the decks of all of that nonsense. Recognize that the inherent worth requires, as a moral imperative, inclusion, safety. That's our foundation of psychological safety. Now, isn't it interesting, Kathy, that in many organizations, a lot of people, they don't even feel that. No, we're struggling with that. That's why we have all these people that are in diversity and inclusion.

Well, I've got. Tim, I gotta ask you something. You and I, I think, are 100% on the same page. And that. How did you put it? Worth is inherent and worth is equal across every human being. I think that if you got. If you were to ask that question in a poll and people thought their answers were going to be viewed, they would say they agree with you. But I think if you actually get to the heart of what people think, I don't think. I think 90% might not agree. Okay, what do you think?

I can agree. I can agree in terms of worthiness, Right? Worthiness. Terms of performance in certain areas. But worth, no. So what I would say to all those people is you need to disabuse yourselves of the theories of superiority that you are embracing, because what are they? There is some justification that you have in your head about why you have elevated yourself above others. It's all false.

I mean, look at. Look at the implication of what you're talking about. Even in our political system today. Sure, there's such a divide. And it's not just a divide by principle, it's a divide by superiority. I mean, Rene Brown has said something like, we're in the bunker of our own ideology and we are hating the people in the other bunker. It's hatred, its superiority. Where do we even begin? This is probably not so much the focus of your book, but how do we start there, Tim? How do we. I mean, you're talking about being incredibly aware. You're talking about looking at all your biases, which are most, in most degrees, unconscious. How do you help? So take that experience where you've come into an organization and you see this problem, and you talk to the CEO and he or she is not going to kick you out.

Right?

He or she wants to learn, but actually says, I don't know if I agree with you. There are some people who have a different worth and frankly, if I'm honest, I feel superior to blah, blah, blah. They're probably never going to tell you that. But what do you do then?

So what I do is I usually help them understand that human beings are dripping with bias. So we get that. And then what we try to do is deconstruct the bias. So where is your bias coming from? Some is visible, some is hidden. Right? But you need to go on a journey and have a very penetrating, unsparing self inventory. That's what you've got to do because you've got to deconstruct your own biases, right?

That's rough, that's hard. I love it.

You have to do that because what you'll find is that the justifications, the rationale that you're giving yourself, the theories of the soothing stories that you're telling yourself are absolutely ridiculous. That's really what it is. But you got to get, you got to go, you got to do a root cause analysis that goes all the way down to understand where are these assumptions, where are these beliefs coming from? And do you realize how silly it is?

Your and my work is so similar, but so different in, I don't know, in focus. But when someone comes to me for career help, I have to say, part of the first assessment is I need to hear about your childhood. What'd you learn? What were the key messages? And if they're struggling in their career almost 100% of the time, there was some emotional misunderstood manipulation, there was maybe some narcissism, there was perfectionistic over functioning. But it often comes from the beginning of time when we're formed. Do you find that when they share with you their biases, biases, it's often from what they learned as a child or.

Oh, sure, I mean, yeah, we studied, we went deep into socialization at Oxford and that's where you have, that's where you pick up a lot of it, right? So there's so much unlearning that has to be done. And that's why hubris, arrogance, narcissism, those are all occupational hazards. If you are a manager or a leader, all that's going to do is get in your way. So you need a very healthy dose of humility to see things clearly. Because if you persist in that, then at some point it's going to become a Very dangerous liability because you're going to become willfully blind.

Wow.

And if you keep moving in that direction, then you will be susceptible to very big lapses in judgment as you're making decisions.

How wonderful.

So that's what happens to leaders.

So tell us more. Now there are. Have you talked about the four stages of psychological safety? Tell us more about that.

So we talked a little bit about stage one. Right, right. Inclusion safety. That's your foundation and that's your moral imperative. Then we move to stage two, which is learner safety. Learner safety means that you feel free and able to engage in all aspects of the learning process. Asking questions, giving and receiving feedback, experimenting, even making mistakes without fear that you'll be marginalized or embarrassed or punished in some way. Now, you can see that it's one thing to be included. You got to go to a little higher level to engage in the learning process, because we all bring inhibition and fear and anxiety to the learning process. So I need an environment that will protect me in that learning process because my level of personal exposure, vulnerability have gone to a little higher level now.

Right.

So that's learner safety.

Yeah. What's next?

Then we go to contributor safety. Stage three, contributor safety says, I'm going to take everything that I've learned, all my skills, experience, knowledge, ability, and I'm going to contribute to make a difference. That's what I want to do. I want to make a difference. So I'm going to use all of that. So what do I need? I need encouragement, I need guidance, and I need some autonomy to be able to do that. So you can see now learner safety. Now I go to the next level. That's contributor safety. So again, my level of personal risk, exposure, vulnerability has gone to a little higher level. So I need the combination of. So, by the way. So psychological safety is this combination of respect and permission coming together. So it needs to go to a higher level, contributor safety.

What's the final one? What are we doing here?

Combination is stage four, Challenger safety. Challenger safety means that you feel safe to challenge the status quo. This is the highest possible level of psychological safety required in organizations. Because after all, if you're gonna challenge the status quo, your level of personal exposure is now at the highest point.

I love this.

So you need protection. So the social exchange at Challenger safety is I need. So, Kathy, if you're my boss, I need air cover from you in exchange for candor. So I need cover for candor. That's the social exchange. If I don't get the air cover from you, that Challenger safety, that permission to innovate to disrupt the status quo. If I don't get that, I'm not going to do it. It's too risky. Right. But what you can see is that Challenger Safety is what is required for innovation because innovation by its very nature is disruptive of the status quo. So if you've got people that can't be themselves, if you've got people that are immobilized, paralyzed, retreating, curled up, how can you innovate with that? If you want to create an incubator of innovation on a team or in an organization, you need Challenger Safety because innovation requires constructive dissent. It requires creative abrasion, it requires ideas colliding. That's how we innovate, that's how we solve problems. That's how we solve, you know, that's how we come up with solutions. So culture is the single biggest obstacle to innovation. There's nothing that's even close. And so psychological safety is the heart of the culture. It's your bellwether, it's your critical indicator that tells us how healthy the culture is.

I got questions, Tim. All right. You know, again the little tears in the eyes because when you were talking about all these levels, I was thinking back in my 18 year corporate career, did I have these levels as an employee? And everything sounded okay until Challenger level. And I was a challenger. And today even I talk about, you ever sit, you have some level of power in an organization, you're sitting in a meeting and everyone's talking BS, like, all right, folks, we need 50% increase in revenue, but expenses, no, they can't increase. We can't give you more ad budget, you know, and you're sitting there going, that ain't gonna happen. And so I would be the kind of person that would raise my hand and say, listen, I hear the goal, let me understand here. And the challenge that I would do would be perceived as, she's not a team player, she's not on board. And there was a time briefly that I had a boss who was a narcissist, but I didn't know what narcissism was. And I went to the president and the head of HR and I said, I got to tell you what's happening. And they said, we support you, we see what you're talking about, but you have to go and have a conversation with him. We have to have that on record. So I really viewed that I was getting the COVID for being a challenger. I went and had that conversation. Well, it went disastrously. As your guy who was a narcissist, kicked out. It was a disaster. And then that president was fired and this fellow replaced him. So what also happens is you feel betrayed when you are promised cover and you don't get it. It's, it's devastating. It's, it's so devastating.

So.

Right. Am I getting it right that you know the concepts that you're talking about here?

Yes. Let me give you a statistic. So we're, we, we have a team survey that measures each of the four levels of psychological safety. So challenger safety. I'll just throw a statistic out there. Only 10% of employees feel that they have challenger safety. That is the statistic right now on.

Average, overall, because you have to be a warrior. You, you're risking everything. You're put, you're on the field. Wow. All right, now I'm getting it. Here, here's what I need help with understanding. So I'm working with thousands of people who are, I call it. It's the battlefield. I mean, they're bloody, wounded soldiers on the battlefield. A lot of the women, very high level women making a lot of money. It feels like a battle in the, in terms of what you're discussing. So here's my question to you. Given what has to change in a culture to be safe, what are the what. Tell us how you go in there and what changes? Let's say we've got leaders and managers listening, shaking their head about, wow, he's talking about the broken culture that I'm in that I'm a part of. What are three things that managers or leaders can do? You know, after they listen to this discussion, what can they do to make a change here? What can the average person do who isn't the CEO?

Okay, so let's begin this way. Number one, this is true of all of us. Whether, regardless of whether we are individual contributors or managers, at some level, the best synonym for leadership in the English language is the word influence. There's not another word that even comes close. How do you influence? Well, the most important way that you influence is through your modeling behavior. So number one, you have to pay attention to your modeling behavior. If you're not walking the talk, then all bets are off. So that's, number one, you have to model the behavior. When that becomes crucial is when people A, challenge you, B, bring you bad news, your emotional response to dissent. And bad news is the most important signal that you can send in an organization or on a team. Everyone is going to be watching you. How do you Handle dissent when people are pushing back. And how do you handle bad news? Your response either gives permission for people to have that. You're either create, you're in the very act. In your response, you are creating or you are destroying psychological safety in the very act. So you have to pay attention to that. You can't say, oh, you know, I'm all for psychological safety, but. And you're, and you're not modeling it, you morons.

You know, why did you let this happen? Right? Yay for psychological safety. Oh my God, I love it. So understand you at every level, every person has a degree of influence, even if it's a small sphere. Own it, understand it, watch yourself, walk it. What else can we do? The average person who isn't the CEO, what else?

Okay, so let me give you one that some of your listeners will have some influence in. Some will not. But I can't help but give this piece of advice. Everybody looks around to see who gets promoted promoted in any organization. So institutionally, the most important mechanism is to incorporate psychological safety as a selection based criterion for promotion. In other words, we will not promote anyone to any management position unless they have a demonstrated track record of being able to create psychological safety. If you don't have that track record, you are ineligible, you are disqualified. Period. End.

I need to ask this, Tim. Gosh, I'm very skeptical. Apparently. I feel like what you're talking about is nirvana. I mean, if every organization on this planet did this, our whole species would elevate. I mean, I mean this with all the truth in my heart. How many organizations that you have worked with do this? Because what comes to mind is they're looking at worthiness. And worth equals how much money you make for this company.

Sure.

How well you bring in clients, how well you turn around businesses. They look at bottom line and they don't tend to factor in safety and human well being in the bottom line. I mean, what number, what percentage of organizations that you work with actually do that? Okay. We're not promoting you if you don't demonstrate. And here's how we measure that.

Right? I can't put a number on it. But let me tell you what I'm finding which is very exciting for many leaders. The moral ethical argument does not get their attention. Right? It doesn't get their attention.

They're like, nice, but move on.

They are elitist in mind and heart. Okay, so they're not going to be persuaded right now. But I'll tell you what is getting their attention. So if the moral ethical force is not. The competitive force is because they are constrained to acknowledge, regardless of whatever they believe, they are constrained to acknowledge that they cannot keep their best people, A, and B, they cannot innovate unless they create a workplace culture that fosters psychological safety. So even if they don't believe it or they are persuaded about it based on moral grounds, they are constrained to acknowledge based on competitive grounds. And so what we're seeing is the beginning of a transformation in the decade of the 2020s, because they cannot survive if they don't pay attention to psychological safety.

I love it. So, you know, the simplest term for that is you're building a business case. We're seeing the business case. Business. Show me the numbers. Why am I doing this? It's an engagement. It's productivity. It's, you know, all the measures that we typically assess the success of a business. Right.

So what that looks like, Kathy, is you get a team of very talented people, and they're not performing. And the executive says, hey, what's wrong with your team, Kathy? And we go, we look at the team, and it's filled with talented people, but they can't get along, they can't collaborate, they can't work together. So now you got a big flight risk, you're not getting anything done. The productivity's down, you're not innovating. And so the executive says, we got to fix this. Well, what's the problem? We don't have the psychological safety, so it's a business case. Yes, you're right. But we're still going to the same place, so I'm all for that.

Right? We'll call it whatever the heck we have to call it, as long as it happens. All right? Leva, I could talk to you for hours. Tim, can you do one more thing? Can you offer us all this research that you've done, all this work? What's the most surprising thing that you are now teaching about psychological safety? That, like, you're obviously Oxford trained. You're brilliant, you're analytical. There's a so much depth. What were you surprised about? That we would be shocked about. About how we teach psychological safety or what's in the way or how we can do it.

I didn't prepare one here, and that is that innovation is a social process. And this is something that I learned at an even deeper level. Once in a while, someone will have a lone moment, a light bulb moment. Right. Of lone genius. They'll think of something, right? They'll have a eureka moment. That's the exception. Most innovation is Social. It comes from a social process. It comes from collaboration. So therefore, a deeper discovery for me was the connection between the culture and psychological safety in particular, and the generation of innovation. The connection is undeniable. And so if you really want to incubate innovation, you cannot ignore the culture. You do so at your peril. There's no way you can ignore the culture. And I understood that before, but not at the depth that I understand it today.

I love it. Can you do one more thing for us and then I'm going to let you go?

Sure.

When you talk about innovation, can we dimensionalize that and make it really clear to people what we're talking about? It's not some lofty thing that, you know, it's what every business has to do. But I'd love to hear you talk about, what do you mean by innovation? Tell us.

Thank you. Let me give you for your listeners, a very basic framework. There's Type one, type two, innovation. Type one is what we call incremental and derivative. Incremental means small steps, right. Little improvements. Derivative means that it comes from what we're already doing.

Right. It's a build on what's already happening, what we're doing.

So that's type one, incremental and derivative. Type two is radical and disruptive. So it's the big stuff, and it disrupts the way we're doing things today. Now, here's the Good news. Type one, type two, 99% of innovation is type one, incremental and derivative. But we tend to think it's the big stuff, but that's not true. So when people understand the real nature of innovation, it puts them at ease. It takes the fear out of the process. And they look at themselves and they say, hey, I can do that. I can be a part of that. And so it's reassuring to them.

I don't have to be a disruptor where I'm, you know, here I am, Uber, and I threw the whole business on its head. We can innovate in small, incremental ways that are a build on what's already happening.

And.

And I can do that.

And I don't have to be a genius. I can be part of that.

My gosh. Do you teach? I would come to your leadership class at Oxford. Sign me up. Oh, my gosh. So fascinating and so uplifting. I would spend another hour with you, but I know you have important things to do. Where can people learn more? Where can they get the book? Where can they get all your resources? Where do we send them?

Sure. The book's available at all major booksellers, you know, everywhere. And then feel free to reach out. Our website is leaderfactor.com or you can follow me on LinkedIn or Twitter. Timothy R. Clark, love to hear from you.

Thank you so much. What I really feel like what you're doing is so life changing for so many people. Thank you for this work. Thank you.

Thank you, Kathy. Thank for the opportunity.

Thank you, friend. Come back everybody. We'd love to hear. What did you get from this talk? How is it changing how you're seeing yourself? I mean, I think one key takeaway is we all need to be more self aware in. You used a term, Tim. Unforgiving. No, that wasn't the word. Brutally honest, whatever. Be a warrior in how you look at yourself. And where are the biases? Where is that question of worth of all individuals equally having worth wear. Excuse me, Is that a challenge for you? And let us know what you think. We'd love to hear from you. Hope you have a wonderful brave week and we will see you next time.