Finding Brave 158: Why We Must Reinvent Masculinity at Work, and How To Start, with Ed Frauenheim

Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. Kathy Caprino here. Wow. You know this, I think this is coming to you. January 14th. So we're over the holidays now. We're in the, you know, new New year, new you. I hope your January is going well and I wish I could see, have a little, what do you call it, crystal ball to see what our country is, is like in January after having gone through, you know, all of us have gone through an incredible time with COVID with the elections that were hard for probably almost everybody in some way. So I hope your January starting out fantastically and I am so excited and honored to have our guest, Ed Frauenheim. Today in the middle of amazing things you're doing, Ed, you took the time to be here and I'm so, so very grateful and we.

It's my pleasure, Kathy. Thank you.

Thank you. And we're talking about something that I'm so rabidly interested in mainly because transparently speaking, you know, my world is women at work. And here I'm talking to someone who's focused probably as much if not more on men at work and masculinity and what we're talking about today, how we must reinvent masculinity at work and how we do it. And I think this is absolutely the flip side of the book the most powerful youl and all the work around what women are going through. It's not a one sided coin. If there's change on this side, there's gotta be change on that side or it needs to. Wholeness is where we're going, I think in general. But I want to tell you about Ed because what, what a background he has and then we're going to get into why do we have to reinvent masculinity. So Ed Frauenheim is a writer and speaker who is focused on the workplace, teacher, technology and culture matters. For more than 25 years his writing has been featured in Fortune Inc. USA Today, I even shared that, which was an incredible, incredible piece. He is co authored four books. Good grief. The latest is Reinventing the Liberating Power of Compassion and Connection, co written by Dr. Ed Adams, a past president of the American Psychological Association's division devoted to treatment the treatment of men and boys. Wow. In the book, the two Eds tell the story of how we are evolving from a cramped, unhealthy, outdated masculinity to one that frees us all to build a better, more inclusive future. Thank you again, Ed. I can't, I can't wait. But I want to do this? You know, I have a Finding Brave prep sheet that my guests fill out and sometimes they write something that I want to literally, verbatim share as a kickoff. And that's okay with you, Ed, right?

Yes.

Here it is, the brief description of what we're talking about. Ed has written. In the flatter, faster, fairness, focused world that's taking shape today, we need a new model for how men show up and lead in organizations. The traditional confined masculinity steers men to be rigid, cold and isolated in a work world now calling for flexibility, warmth and connection. A liberating masculinity is emerging and can be seen in some of today's leading business executives and sports leaders. It's a male ethos that enables men to break out of the emotional straitjacket many of us grew up with, to reckon with privilege and power we have long benefited from and to succeed in new and inclusive ways. I get a little choked up when I read this. I wonder why. You can tell me, Ed. You can be my therapist. I think maybe whenever we're talking about what rigid gender stereotypes do to people, it is being in a rigid straitjacket that you can't break out of. So let's start there. Ed, you know how. Why are we calling now for a reinvention of masculinity? What have you seen? Why is it so important now?

Thanks, Kathy. I think it's because this older way, this more conventional, what we call confined way of being a man, it no longer works and it's proving to be unhealthy and dangerous even in the workplace and then beyond in society. And you highlighted the three Fs we talk about in terms of kind of naming what's going on in, in the business community and in the broader world, things are faster now. So you can't rely on those top down chains of command where information comes in from the bottom and it gets steered up to the top and some guy usually makes a decision, sends that message back down. That is too slow for the rapid pace of work. You need people throughout your organization sensing and responding to signals in the marketplace and opportunities and threats. With respect to the flatter piece that it's Many organizations are flattening their hierarchies, making more distributed power arrangements so that you can have ad hoc teams that tackle a topic. You are giving people that are lower down in the traditional hierarchy the authority to choose how to proceed or to innovate new products or services. Again, that doesn't speak to a barking boss approach to leadership. Where you're kind of just about commanding and controlling. It's more about persuading and listening and collaborating. And then this Fairness Focus piece really speaks to the MeToo movement, to the Black Lives Matter movement, where it's not okay to be kind of blind to our privileges as guys, especially white guys, straight guys, and in the ways we've kind of really limited the potential of women and people of color historically, we have got to show up as aware of our privilege, as allies to others. And we know that that's not just good morally, but it's good for business. More and more research showing that you get the best results when you have that diverse and inclusive culture.

I love it. I got questions here. Now I'm really interested. Just as we were sharing earlier, you know, when I present the stuff that I think is self evident, I'm always amazed at some of the vitriolic hatred that comes back at me. Like, if I talk about feminism and why people like it or hate it, and if I talk about, at the core of it, it's about equal rights. You know, there are so many people that either think we already have equal rights or women are emasculating men and it's turning into a horrible world. There's, you know, there are certain things we kind of take for granted, that every human being deserves the equal rights with every other human being. Some things are just not accepted that way. I'd love to know when you said, you know, it's clear, it's showing up, this is not working, this outdated view of masculinity. And, you know, you talked about business and leadership. But I also want to hear the piece about personally, if you don't mind, you know, what is going wrong there? And we've talked about this. I interviewed Terry Real, who's a renowned best selling author and couples therapist, and he's an expert on the patriarch. Patriarchy dynamic, patriarchal dynamic. I think it works for no one when, you know, and again, I've said this a lot, but I'll say it again for people. Didn't hear that episode. You know, in a patriarchal world, you split yourself in half. There's the masculine and the feminine. We all know what it means. Rigidly, stereotypically speaking, the masculine is strong, invulnerable, decisive, dominant, makes decisions, you know, female. The feminine is soft, malleable, accommodating, pleasing. So I think, would you agree? You wrote the book on it, but we're not just talking about how to lead in a business. We're talking about how to approach living. Would you agree with that piece?

I definitely do. And you spoke to that personal element to it. You know, a big reason that I co wrote this book is a personal experience with not really fitting that patriarchal man mold very well. You know, I grew up skinny when you're supposed to be strong, muscular guy. I lost my one fist fight in sixth grade. Kathy. When you're supposed to be the dominant shoot, be able to, you know, beat up other people. And then when I got to the work world, you know, at that point, the masculine model is rise to the top of the heap, you know, you know, climb over other people, get to the top of the corporate ladder. And I did not have a conventional career like that. I managed one person for one day. I may have the shortest management record in the. In history.

And so wait, you've managed many projects and many things. I think you're. You're not even seeing your own ability, your management prowess, you know.

Yeah. When you look at it in this newer way, yes. I'm one of my, you know, my, my bosses called me at the Collaboration King, you know, because I love working with people. But in that kind of traditional model, that was the one that I grew up with, you know, that's where all the status was. It didn't work very well for me.

I see, so you had that. All right, so talk to me about in general, what is the pushback that you hear? Because I love to hear what happens in people's minds when they hear you say, it's not working. I think some people are going to go, well, who are you to say it's not working? I'm doing just fine running my business the way I'm running it. What is the pushback? What do you hear about when people say, I don't like this. No, we don't need it.

Yeah. Well, I would say couple things. One, you know, when we published that essay in New York, say today, and just for a bit more context, that was a. We were noting that masculinity was on the ballot, really, in the recent U.S. election, where you had Donald Trump representing this more conventional, confined masculinity, where you're supposed to be what you just described earlier, Kathy, like dominant, aggressive, take, no.

Blip, you know, take.

Yeah, and it's more about always competing and winning is everything. Not much emotion or especially not empathy. And on the other side, Joe Biden represented what we would call of a liberating masculinity, where you're, you know, you can still be, you know, strong and Able to succeed in competition when you need to. But it builds on that to say you can also be in other roles like the caregiver, you know, I mean.

He cried about his son or kissed his son on the forehead when he joined him on stage. This is not stuff you see usually of a male leader.

And that's the, we think the emerging model words. He's opening up the whole realm of emotion. Right. Though I could be empathetic to this kid who stutters, you know, I can be sharing grief with people. This, like, he's, he's. He hasn't walled off his grief. He's gone through it, you know, with, with the loss of his, his first wife and daughter. So. Well, one of the reactions of that piece is like someone in the comments in USA Today's Twitter feed, I think it was like, you got my. He called my co author a wuss. Someone said that.

Aren't we called baby emotional? You know, whatevers.

Yeah. And so I think that there is. That shows to me the power of that confinement that we can't imagine another way where we're not even saying it's wrong to be, you know, fit, you know, to be someone who stands on principle to be able to succeed in a competitive contest. But it's not everything, you know. And so when we put things, you know, there's more, you know, and what my co author Ed has found in his psychological practices, so many guys by the time they get in their 50s and 60s, just feel empty. They don't have a relationship with their wife very well or with their kids. They don't have meaning in their jobs. They've just kind of followed this provider protector path, stoic. And, you know, that's really inspired me to, you know, work on this book as well. To say there's a lot more out there.

I love this. You know, I think every woman listening to this is going to laugh when and nod her head, but I have an example of this I am so floored by. And I don't mean to, you know, cement a rigid stereotype, but every man in my life, including my son or any man I ever know, they'll go out and see a friend who they haven't seen in a year and they come back. So how's Mark? He's good. What's his job? I don't know. Where's he living? I don't know, you know. How's his girlfriend? Don't know. How do you not know? What the heck did you talk about?

Maybe what.

And, you know, every Woman is going to laugh. But do you think that's part of it? That men, boys are also not encouraged to ask a probing question? I mean this sounds. Yeah, I don't know.

I think. Yeah, there, there, there is. That is again the, this, we would call it like a cage of this philosophy that you can't have a emotionally rich conversation and relationship because then you start getting into this dangerous territory of seeming feminine, like you, like you said at the start, the start, or homosexual, which is even more taboo like that you could become across as gay if you're like really caring about your friend. And you know, but I think that it's changing. You know, I have a lot of several really rich friendships that I've developed and I'm really grateful that they have pushed me to become more emotionally vulnerable and deep over time. But even some of the guys I don't know is quite as well, but that I've reconnected with from my high school and junior high, you know, they're, they're going in these directions too, you know, even though I haven't been in great touch with them. But I think there is and you see it in the culture, you know, shows that like the Schitt's Creek, you know, and the kind of emotional depth that like a Johnny Rose is developing or shows, you know, Roland and Johnny and friendship and you know, David and Patrick. So these are all inside baseball terms from the show. But it's, there's movement I think in this direction where guys are going to have deeper relationships. And it's starting in the schools, Kathy, with kids learning socio emotional learning techniques. So my son and his friends are much more clear with each other and open than I think I was back at his age at 17.

I was talking to my son who's 23 about this because we live together now because of COVID And I was a former therapist. As you know, I talk a lot about narcissism, which is everywhere really. And he now goes, yeah, boy, guy's a narcissist or that woman is a narcissist. And we, you know, we're not trying to just label everyone, but I was talking to him and my daughter about why are younger people now seemingly much more in touch with psychological and emotional issues and well being and meditation than my generation. You know, I'm 60. There was nothing, nothing about your emotional well being, about what you felt. Where would we get access to that? And my mom and dad were traditional Greek and Italian. And in fact I think when I did grow up, when I cried over something that really freaked them out. And I learned. I mean, I really think I was like the son that my father didn't have. So I just want to say, first of all, thank goodness for these younger generations that in many ways have much more access to what it is to be a whole person and to question this stuff. Right. Would you agree, Ed?

Totally. And I think you pose a kind of a question of why is this happening? Or I'd love to throw an idea out there along those lines. I think part of what's happening is it's greater care in how they're handling relationships on the playground. Say, where we used to have that, you know, bullies are going to rule on the playground. There's a might makes, right? That. And maybe, you know, later on, kind of whoever's the jocks kind of can call the shots. Whereas, you know, when my son and daughter were, you know, they were. They went to public high school, public elementary school, and it was, we're not going to let bullying go on unaddressed. You know, we're going to have conflict resolution. We're going to figure stuff out. So, you know, that. That gets kind of nipped in the bud a little bit, and people realize that, you know, bullying and that's sort of like I'm gonna have to follow this patriarchal order and be, you know, a lieutenant and, you know, you know, push the crap out of the people below me. It's not the. It's not okay. And so I think that's part of the answer. I think part of the answer is, you know, greater and greater acceptance of mental health as real. And the issues around there, like, you know, the work you've done in your profession, Kathy, where it's not nearly the stigma it was little by little. And the COVID situation is in some ways a gift along those lines, where so many organizations, especially the ones best workplaces that I work with, that great place to work, where their leaders are acknowledging mental health challenges in their own families, they're talking about all the additional resources around meditation and counseling that may be needed because people are stressed out in ways that they never have been. So I think that there's a lot of factors, but I'm hopeful about where we're going to just bring up a point, too.

I always want to look for silver linings. That's just who I am. And while Covid has given us a lot of loss, I think when I see my friends who are married and had traditional, kind of more traditional marital relationships, the husband used to leave a Monday morning. He was a management consultant. Comes home at Friday. Not in the fabric of the kids lives except weekends. And the wife did everything. I'm seeing what they're learning from each other. They're learning, wow, that ain't easy, what you've got going on. And you know, the husband is seeing what the wife is dealing with with three kids, four kids, two kids. And there's a. The deal is I don't think you develop empathy for something you don't see. I mean, we can, we can imagine. But I think when you really see it, you know, a lot of people, for instance, who don't even believe in Black Lives Matter, don't think they're systemic oppression. Well, have they spoken to a black person? No, they're in an insular. I think that what we've got here is we're all seeing each other's realities and realizing, wow, that's, that's a problem. What you're. What you've been having to do. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think that's a great point and I think it's true for me and my relationship with my, my wonderful wife who's done a lot more of the domestic chores. And while I've been here, I'm like, oh my God, there's more dishes. Where do those come from? You know, we have to cook again. We have to feed these two teenagers again.

Right.

Non stop.

You're starting to see what, what it is for her and she's starting to see more maybe what it is for you. I love it. Okay, so the pushback. The pushback hasn't been as vitriolic in your. To your world as it is for me. I think nobody's going. Shut up, you dumb. Nobody is.

Thankfully not. I mean, I haven't seen that exactly yet. I'm sure it may happen. I know that there are pioneers in this world work around a better masculinity that. That have been more involved in these kind of battles, especially in social media and. Yeah, and that can be.

You're not on Twitter, are you?

Probably I am, but not super aggressively or you don't have a million followers. But I hope that. What I hope is. Tell me if you think this is true. Like there's a way. There's a lot, you know, there's a coalition of the willing. You know, there's a lot of people that are kind of, I think, hungry for what you've said in your book that we need to really look at these power gaps and find ways to have A more equitable organization. And I think that's true for guys and for women. And so I'm hopeful to kind of find those folks that are curious and they might have been quote, unquote, woke if they were born 20 years later, you know?

Yes. I want to say one thing, then I want to get to your five Cs, which I'm thinking are about how we reinvent masculinity. I want to say one reason I've moved to working almost exclusively with women is the men won't do the inner work. They won't do it. And at first I thought, what the hell's going on here? Excuse my French. Is it laziness? No, it's that I feel. Tell me what you think. They. They don't know how to access the internal. They don't know how to do it, and it's too scary. Would you.

I think that's right. Yeah. And it's also because we were told not to go there. You know, I think it's told because.

You'D be made fun of or you're going to be a wuss or weak or. It was that.

It starts with the boys don't cry, you know, motto.

So there's programming that this is wrong to go there. Is that right?

Yeah, yeah. You're going to be like a girl, you know, if you are going to be emotionally vulnerable. And I think so. It's. It's. It. So it does end up with the system you described or the situation described, where people can't access it, guys can't access their interiority, their emotional landscape. So you pretty much have anger or. Okay, like there's.

Or nothing.

Or numb or nothing. Yeah.

Or there's numb. Like what? You know, I know you're crying. I know you're upset. What is it? Can't do it. I feel badly for that. All right, tell us what to do. Where do we begin? What are the five C's at? Help us out here in our 30 minute podcast. Solving.

No, thanks. We. We came up with this 5C model. Actually, we've kind of added one since we started. We're on the hundred by next year. And so the five Cs are curiosity, courage, compassion, connection. We added this contemplation one and then commitment. And so should I run through them briefly?

Please tell us if you have one practical strategy. People are going to take off their earbuds after listening and they can go do something that would be helpful.

Yeah. The curiosity one is about kind of recovering the curiosity we had as boys. You know, if I'm thinking about for men, but it's true for women too. Like we, we all come with curiosity as human beings, right. Why is the sky blue? How come that airplane is flying and yet it kind of gets smushed out of us by the time we're teenagers because, or early young men because you got to be the smartest guy in the room and to ask a question is to acknowledge vulnerability. Yeah, you might be dumb and yet that's not flying in today's world. Like Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella says we have to go from being know it alls to learn it alls because that's how fast things are going. Right. So if you aren't willing to ask questions, you're going to be the, the dumbest guy in the room pretty quickly.

Can I just say this? That research shows that when women ask questions in meetings, men think they don't know. They don't know anything. So you're, you know, so that's so right on, you know, that if you ask a question, you look like you don't know. Well, that's absurd.

And that is, yeah, there's still going to be probably that penalty for a while. But I think things are shifting, you know, and I, again, I've been lucky to be able to work with and study and interview some of the most effective leaders at these best workplaces. The ones where employees, you know, on our great Place to Work survey say they're the highest, have the highest levels of trust, camaraderie and pride. So I'm seeing these leaders like Cisco's Chuck Robbins, he's the CEO there and he was asking questions about race before this year. You know, he read White Fragility and he's asking how can we get better as an organization around racial equity. And so it's, it's having that and that's. So that's, you just ask these questions. Right. And it's, it's the courage piece ties directly to that. Right. Because are you willing to show up as seemingly not the smartest guy in the room or you know, challenging some of these, our assumptions that we earned everything we have, that we are, we might be privileged. And so that goes right against that sense that we are self made men, independent, you know, so if you start asking about privilege and how maybe you were born on third base, you know, and you didn't earn everything you got so far, that takes courage to say, okay, maybe, you know, there's an interdependence here and I have to kind of Take stock of that.

Can I say something here? You know, when I think of my book, the Most Powerful you. What I saw in working with women is we need more bravery to admit what isn't working and take accountability to change it. But that's not enough. We need power, internal and external power, to be our own change agents and advocates for change. That's exactly what you're talking about men and I'm always talking about women, but men need to be. And bravery and power is what men are typically known for. You know, right now we're asking a different kind of bravery. Admit what you don't know and take accountability for it and then have the power to shift it. That's what we're asking. Same thing that you're talking about here, right?

Yeah, I agree. It's. It's kind of building on bravery that we men already have. This is why we see this not as an either or, but like a building. So the confined masculinity has all been about bravery of your physical self and your financial self. I will go into a burning building to save someone. I will take a big risk with my investments. But now we want you to go into the emotional realm. We want to ask you then also to look at self awareness of the ways society has given you help already so their new territory and then especially to exercise your power like you're saying. So you know, if you jump to this next one of compassion, once you see that maybe you have been part of a system that hasn't treated people well, you have to act on it. You've got to feel with them and feel for them and alleviate that suffering and that injustice that's underway.

Can you tell? Do you have any insight into why so many people, if you say black lives matter, they say no, white lives matter too. They won't go there. Of course white lives matter. We're saying the problem is systemic racism. Why do so many people just take that issue or any other issue? Why do they resist that there's a problem because they don't want to feel culpable?

Yes, I think that's right. You know, if I look at it from the masculinity lens, one theory I would have is that we are supposed to be independent along with those other traits we talked about before, the aggressiveness, the strength, we are supposed to be able to make it on our own, the rugged individualism. And if you start saying that we haven't had an equal set of opportunities and we've actually had brutal injustice around race issues, then I think Our sense of ourselves as, like, I don't want.

To admit I had a leg up, no way. I did this myself, really.

And it's complicated because a lot of, you know, that doesn't take away from all the work people have done to get where they've gotten. But it's also, it's acknowledging that complexity that, okay, that's all true and it hasn't been fair, you know, so. But I think it's a very challenging thing, especially when we've got people that are riling up all the divisiveness and saying, you know, that's un American and we are, you know, how dare anyone call us, you know, a racist country. It makes it hard to sort of like open yourself into the questioning period, you know, and be curious about what is really going on and how do. How do I take responsibility, as you put it, as well.

Oh, so important. What else, what else do we need here?

Connection is that next connection, you know, speaks to that idea. If we go back to the work setting, Kathy, like, you know, you can't just dictate things to people anymore. It's really about. Because that never really worked that well anyways. And now if you're going to be all about matrix ad hoc teams that are working across functions, that's where the innovation happens. When we get diverse ideas in the room and diverse kinds of people from different backgrounds, you've got to be able to relate to people and not be this sort of standoff, unemotional person. If you're a leader, you have to create psychological safety, which means typically being vulnerable yourself and building a bond, a real relationship. So soft skills are now success skills. And those are about connection.

And, you know, I want to say I have a merch. What am I saying? A virtual team of four, and they're contractors and I love them all. You know, here I am 60 and I managed a lot of things in my life and a lot of people, all of this work has uncorked in me. And maybe people will relate. When you're moving fast and you're trying to get a lot done, I'm just going to be honest and transparent. Building this kind of connection takes more time. It takes time. You have to stop the project management and you have to ask, oh, they have Covid. You have to ask them and be there for them and take over their work when they can't do it. And you. It takes time. And I think people that are driven, I call them strivers in my dominant action style. Striver seeker, pacer researcher, challenger Advocator strivers are all about getting it done. And that's typically masculine.

Yeah.

And so we are saying, yeah, this is a difference. This will be different. It'll be slower, it'll be more emotional when you really connect. What do you think?

Yes. And it will be faster in the long run. If you slow. You got to slow down to go faster often, which is one of these paradoxes of today. But you're exactly right. Yeah. One of the other combined masculine impulses is achievement and get it done strivers, as you put it. And if we don't weave in some of these other, what you could call feminine characteristics, but we would just call them full human set of features. Yeah. Then you can be receptive. And that actually ties also to this idea of the contemplation seat, you know, if I build on that. Because we need to pause, you know, and be still and to access our feelings, to like, settle our brain. So we make wise decisions, especially in encounter, intuitively in moments of great change. So I think that what you're saying is very right. And it's one of these new habits that thankfully is, you know, with yoga, with, you know, the interest in mindful apps, it's happening more and more and more and more guys are sort of experimenting with it and they're seeing great results. I know one. One fellow I've met recently was the coach of the sports psychologist of the Washington Mystics female basketball team championship two years ago. And he got their players, including their star player, to start meditating all the time, 10 minutes a day. And that brought the star players game to the next level and they won the championship with his help. So when we realize the power of pausing to not just be about getting there, but being mindful of the journey, not just the destination, good things happen.

I would even add, you know, I'll be transparent. You and I had an email exchange last night that, you know, I could have been hurt by, let's say, you know, thank goodness for therapy training. And you haven't gone to therapy and been a therapist. But what I now do is pause and contemplate. Am I going to get defensive? Am I going to get hurt? Is the inner narcissist in me? I have a little bit of it going to come flying out. It's all in the contemplation where, you know, I always say greater awareness equals greater choice. If you don't have awareness, there's no choice. You understand what I mean?

Yeah. I love that line.

We did that.

Yeah. And I appreciate you hearing me out. And we did have a kind of a lovely but kind of, you know, not perfect, you know, difficult exchange if you.

But a brave exchange on both our parts. I think.

I agree. I agree. You know, if I could squeeze that last C in there, that's kind of. It's committing to doing that, you know, and that's what I'm about now, or trying to be anyways. And I think that's. That's what I see in you, too. Like, you're, you know, this with your podcast and everything else you're doing, but we can't just do this once and feel like we don't want anything. It's a muscle. These are all muscles we're building in this newer way. And often it helps to have partners along the way to help us stay committed, you know, and I see more and more men's groups emerging where guys are holding each other accountable but also supporting each other. So, you know, I think that there's this liberating masculinity is on its way, even though it's still nascent.

Oh, I love it. So let's leave. I'm aware of our time here. Let's leave with two things, two thoughts, if we could, from you. How with the men listening, how do they know it's time to read your book and to do something to change? How will they know?

I would say that they'll be wrestling with challenges right now. How do they fit into this workplace that's now calling for men to be allies, that's now calling for a different way of leading or operating, where you got to be communicating and collaborating? If that's challenging for men, then that's a sign we have some answers potentially for you.

Embrace it. Embrace it. Don't be numb to it. Don't push it away. Say, gosh, this is a challenge. I think I have to be curious and learn. Right?

And also in the personal life, if you're feeling like you're dissatisfied, your relationship with your family members, with your friends, if you're not having friends as guys, there's, you know, again, there's some potential, you know, ways to reframe things that we can offer you.

I love it. And for all the women who are living with, married to, involved with, leading, managing, collaborating with men, what can we do to help?

Thank you. What a great question. I think if you can see this liberation of men as not a zero sum game, we acknowledge women have greater constraints on them than men do. You know, men cause a lot of these problems that women experience. But when we liberate. When we help men become more liberating and freeing themselves and freeing others, everybody wins. Women win as well. So that's. I think one piece is being open to that, that. That shift and this work that men are trying to do. But. And then a second more practical thing is as men show up in different ways in your life, like, maybe they are more vulnerable. Maybe they are walled off. Say that again.

Maybe more walled off. And instead of getting mad about it, Right.

Like, kind of be curious. Thank you, and be kind. It's easy, I think, for women to have bought into these notions, too, that if their guy is not suddenly going to be the devoted provider alone and he's questioning whether he's got meaningful work, you know, instead of just getting anxious and seeing that that means we're not going to have the. The second car or something, you know, like, let's go there with him or at least make space for him to start questioning how he's been as a man.

I will also say, you know, as a feminist, I've. In my own marriage, I saw that what I consciously thought, I believed and wanted. I had unconscious biases, biases against it. So my dad was a man's man, did all the car stuff, the yard stuff, and, you know, when my husband, my ex now, but said, you know, the first time we could pump our own gas, I didn't know how to do it. And I said, will you come with me? He goes, I'm not coming with you. It's really simple. You go to the pump and you read the directions. You're smart. And I was like, what? Why won't he come pump the gas with me? Thank goodness he didn't pump the gas for me. You know what I mean? But what I share is we have unconscious biases that if we brought them to light, we wouldn't agree with, but we were born with them. But you can change what you were born with. I'm going to leave you all with that. Yeah.

Love it. Yeah.

Where do we learn more about you? Where do we get your book? Where do we just soak up everything? You got to teach us, Ed.

Thank you, Kathy. Reinventing masculinity.com is where our book website is, and there's resources there. You can download our Confined Masculinity chapter. I'm also posting stuff on LinkedIn and Twitter and Facebook. And we're. You know, there's a. We've developed a workshop with a partner on this idea of a more successful, inclusive masculine at work. So if anyone's interested in that. Ping me that way through LinkedIn, say so.

Oh, how wonderful. I'm going to spread to everybody I know. Thank you. Thank you, Ed, for sharing. You know, everybody hears from me about the women's issues. It's a whole world here, people. Right. And we have to embrace wholeness in everyone and help that wherever we can. I can't thank you enough for taking the time and joining me, Ed. Thank you.

It was my honor. Thank you so much, Kathy.

All right, people, we want to hear from you and we mean it. Where are you struggling with this? Ed's the expert. Let us know wherever you see this. Send us a comment. And if something bothers you and perturbs you, that we want to hear that too, because that's where we're niggling the system there. We want to hear from you and we hope this is helpful to you. Have a wonderful week and we will see you next time.