Finding Brave 159: The Introvert’s Edge to Networking, with Matthew Pollard

Hello everybody. Kathy Caprino here. Welcome to Finding Brave. Oh my gosh, you are going to have such an amazing time listening to my amazing guest, Matthew Pollard. We just talked for, I don't know, probably an hour and my head's exploding with ideas and knowledge I should have had before I did some things. Matthew is just amazing. So we are talking about the introverts edge to networking and you're just in for it. And you know what, all of what Matthew shares is wonderful. It's kind of like my work where I'm focused on women but it's perfectly relevant for men. What you share, Matthew, is perfectly relevant for anyone extrovert, introvert and anyone ambivert and anyone in between who you want to shine your light in a bigger way. You want to have more success, you want to connect with people who make a difference like you do for me. So I can't wait to dig into this content. Matthew, thank you for being here in the middle of your book launch and moving and thank you for taking the time.

Look, it's my absolute pleasure. I mean, you and I both know, we both do what we're passionate about doing every day. It's a pleasure. We have lots of things going on but it's a pleasure. And you know, you're right. It's actually really interesting when I see especially professional coaches that even are extroverted and have been out selling other people's products and services in the past. The first time that they actually have to sell themselves. It doesn't matter if they're the most extroverted person on the planet. All of a sudden they become quite reserved because how do you not take that rejection personally? And they all of a sudden they struggle to articulate the value of what they do and all of a sudden they're all arms and elbows just like an introvert that's trying to figure out how to talk to anyone in an event. So.

Right.

Interesting to see how, how much you know in the coaching world the ability to be able to articulate what you do is so vitally important to success.

And I think I've never said these words before but literally, you know, in my book the most powerful you power gap number two is communicating from fear, not strength. And that's 77% of the women said yes. But I think that every woman becomes an introvert when she's talking about herself and her I think so. Hang on folks. Let me tell you all about Matthew. We've known each other how long now? Three years, four years?

Gosh, I think I think four years now. Yeah, four years. David Vox introduced the two of us. Gosh, back that long ago.

Wow. That's a long time ago. All right, everyone, this is Matthew. Called the real deal by Forbes. That means a lot. Matthew is the best selling author of the Introvert's Edge, Amazon's eighth most sold book of the week and Book Authority's number two best introvert book of all time. That is quite a high honor. Now adding this new book to your series. You have a series of the introvert books, right? The Introverts Edge to networking. Matthew's on a mission to confront the stigma that introverts can't be successful at. Business, sales, networking, speaking, or any other so called, you know, extroverted arena, which is the world of business, isn't it? And shares the tactics and strategies that have worked for him, his clients and his students overcoming imagined barriers to success as an introvert. And you're also the founder of Rapid Growth Coach, which I just can't believe how much you, you pour out in the world. That is of help, Matthew.

Wow.

And you know, we're below, we're going to have all the links to where you can find all about Matthew. But let, let us dig in. First of all, tell, tell me why your first book? Why do you think that was such a runaway success and why did you write it? The first book? And that was only two years ago, right?

It was two years ago in, well, actually what, 23 months ago now. So it, it's, it's flown by. I honestly, I think it was successful because I mean, there are 2,000, maybe 5,000 books for extroverted people to learn how to sell. And yet there's this misconduct conception that introverts. I don't want to learn how to sell. I mean, when I, the first thing, by the way, I didn't want to write that book first. I wanted somebody else to write the book. So I kept telling everybody, every, every person that I knew in the sales field, I kept saying, somebody's got to write a book on introverted sales. And everyone went, no one's going to buy a book on introverted selling. No one's going to buy it.

Why the heck not?

It blew me away. And what it was, I think is, and you know, Jeb Blunt actually talks about this in the forward he wrote for my new book, said there are a lot of us like, Jeb Blunt is introverted. Zig Ziglar was introverted. But the thing is that it was almost like a thing you shouldn't Say, right? Because everybody up until. And I love the fact that I can say this now, until recently, people were almost embarrassed or ashamed to say that they were introverted. Now I'm glad to see that this is starting to shift and people are actually proud introverts now, which I love. Now, the secondary issue is that because of this belief that you either have the gift of gab or you don't. I think that people's belief was that people wouldn't go. Like, the introverts wouldn't go to the bookshelf to find a book on introverted selling. But in my head it was like, I mean, there's nothing more heroic than a person that goes into business for themselves because they have enough belief in themselves and their skill sets to make something happen. But because they don't know how to sell, they end up in this constant battle to set themselves apart, find interested prospects, make the sale. They feel like people only care about one thing, price, which is definitely not true. But introverts, a lot of times will end up with businesses, and because of that, they run to that sales bookcase and there's nothing in there that's written for them. So I just decided that there needed to be something for us. And, I mean, you have my backstory on our last interview. But in short, I went from having no business being in sales, losing my job just before Christmas and finding my way into commission, only sales, because that was the only job I could get. And literally 93 doors of rejection, being sworn at getting told to get a real job in my first day before making my first sale. And then I taught myself how to sell watching YouTube videos. So what was interesting is, you know.

How old were you then, Matthew? How old were you?

I was 18. Yeah. Which I know, I know. Sometimes I'm starting to get gray hair, though, now. I think last time I was like, you look 22. Exactly. Yes. I'm in my late 30s, which I hate to say now. Right. It was. It was funny. Like, I used to, you know, get offended when people said, I look young. Now I'm actually quite happy you.

And the older you get, the happier you'll be about that. I know that.

That's exactly it. But, you know, it was interesting. So I started. I started explaining to people when I came to the U.S. what I call the three steps to rapid Growth, Differentiation, Niche marketing and Sales systemization. And people just kept coming up afterwards and saying, I had no idea as an introvert that I could sell because I'd share my journey with sales and How I learned to succeed and how I went from terrified to sell to ending up, you know, a decade later being responsible for five multimillion dollar success stories. And people would just come up and say, matt, I had no idea this was possible. So eventually I was working with a ghostwriter as a client that I took from really making 27,000 a year to nearly 300,000 the following year. I mean, the guy made 120,000 in four months. And he said, matt, you've got to put this into a book. And I have, you know, I have reading issues, spelling issues. I had a reading speed of a sixth grader in late high school, and because of these lenses, miraculously, I could learn to read. But it's always been hard for me.

That was dyslexia, Matt. I don't remember.

I got misdiagnosed as dyslexia for, gosh, nearly 10 years. Actually, no, I was 16 when I got diagnosed. So, yeah, 16 years. And then literally the difference is, you know, I put on this pair of colored lenses and the words look normal to me, and I can learn to start to decode words I couldn't learn like everyone else. I wasn't up to their speed, but I could start the process of learning and. But, you know, luckily, I mean, writing the first book was literally, I would get sent 5,000 words, and then I would listen to that on text to speech, and I would listen to it with a robot voice. And then I'd write like 3,000 words of comments. And then he'd then rework it, send it, and then, you know, we do each chapter that way, and then I get 50,000 words and I have to listen to all of them in robot voice. And then I would do 30,000 words of notes. And that just went on and on, but, you know, ecstatic to see how many lives it's changed. I get comments all the time about the fact that people didn't know that they could sell and now they feel like they've got a system and people's businesses are surviving now, succeeding, you know, thriving because of the book. So I was just. I'm really glad that I was able to deliver it to the world.

Oh, gosh. So inspiring. Hi. All right, so let's talk about the networking piece. You know, I almost wish we had another word now for networking. I mean, look at what you and I do. We. Judy Robinette is a mentor of ours and a dear friend, and she also has connected us. We have so many friends in common. I see the people who've reviewed Your books. Ivan Meisner, you know, he's been on the show and oh, before I forget this, I wanted to ask you this. Susan Cain is featured in my book. Do you think I do that? She had an important role in, in bringing introversion out in the world and destigmatizing it. Do you think that that's true?

Oh no, I think she made the whole industry possible. So she's actually, by the way, she is agreed to publicize and get my, the word out about my book, which I'm ecstatic with. And again that comes down to great networking, you know and. But what I will tell you is I don't think without Susan Cain's work my book would have been socially acceptable. I mean it was a big thing to say, introverts can outsell extroverts. And I expected to get slammed think because of Susan Cain's book and the fact that there are just so many introverted leaders out in the world that it didn't. I was blown away. I was ecstatic to see it was accepted. But Susan, her work I think opened the door. But what followed upset me which was all these poor you, you're an introvert. Let me show you how to survive. And my book was more forget about survival. You've got a natural edge. Let me show you how to leverage your natural strengths with a system that's designed for you. And what I've been incredibly ecst. Because I don't want this. I mean this is not my mission. I mean the reason I, you know, I founded National Introverts Week is because I want people to rally behind the fact that we're not second class citizens. Our path to success is just different. And when we embrace that and a system that is going to leverage our natural strengths, then we can outperform in all of these so called extroverted arenas. I mean they're all introverted ones in my mind. But I think that what was interesting is, you know, Susan did talk about this in her book. She talked about, you know, be proud to be an introvert. But she did mention in a book, I mean she was a negotiator. I mean, you know, that was her, that was her background and she talked about that. But people ignored that and heard that if you want to be a writer, be a proud writer. If you want to be a coder, be a proud coder. Right? Your jobs are just as important. But you know, sales was something she didn't talk about. That wasn't something that you should do. Or introverts couldn't do. But what happened was it then opened up to all these books of the fact that, you know, you can survive as an introvert. You just, you know, you just have to learn these coping mechanisms. And I think what I've been really excited to see, and I'm seeing it everywhere now, of all these introverts, there are hundreds of introvert coaches now, which I'm ecstatic to see. But many of them are now talking about how it's an advantage. And I think that transition is a relatively recent one. But you're right. I mean, you have to get people to accept who they are before you can tell them to be excited about who they are. So without Susan, it wouldn't have happened.

I feel like there are so many parallels between what you're saying and being a woman. Like, you know, years ago, it was like, you can do okay if you're a woman. Here's how. Yeah, but it's not what you're talking about, which is. No, no, no. We are embracing what we bring. We are embracing the feminine in leadership, in communication. It's not. Oh, poor thing. You're. You know, you're at a disadvantage. It. Don't you feel there's a parallel?

No, I 100% agree. So there's a. I'm careful about how I explain because I still think that gender equality, it's come such a long way. There still is such a long way to go. And, I mean, that's the same with racial equality, religious equality. There are so many. I think what's interesting, though, is until those battles were won, I mean, who really cared about introversion? Extroversion. Right. There were some seriously important battles.

Bigger, just, you know.

Exactly.

More crushing. I don't know.

Well, crushing is the right word. I mean, yes, we had, like, half of the population felt disenfranchised from life. I mean, that's. It's kind of important that we fix that problem first. I mean, sure, introverts feel bad about the fact that people don't take it seriously. We perhaps have seen a second class, but we still can survive in the world. Right? We don't have our. We have rights. So there were as important battles to be won before the introverted discussion. I think what's interesting, though, is there's a big difference. I think that the female equality battle was the mention of the glass ceiling. The glass ceiling was placed on females. Right? It was, you can't do this. You can't do this. And sure, there were females that did believe that they couldn't do it. But there were lots of them that were also saying, no, we can give us the opportunity. The difference is that what I've seen is that since we've started to broach those really important battles, it's now opened up. And it's not just introversion, extroversion. There's lots of other examples that these dialogues are now becoming more acceptable. But the difference is, and this is what's interesting is that introverts, we've imposed our own glasses ceiling. Like we have literally said there's this gift of gab wall that we can't cross and we believe it so emphatically that we won't go into sales roles or. And worse, you know, and even I do this sometimes. I'll see this amazing presenter on stage about, oh, gosh, I wish I was like them. I wish I had that natural gift of gab like they do. They're clearly an extrovert. And, you know, Dan Walshmid was a great example. I saw him speak and afterwards I spoke to him. He's an introvert. It's just whenever we see successful people, we project extroversion upon them and it's just not true. More often than not. I mean, you think about our personal friend Ivan Meisner, the founder of bni, he's an introvert as well. They're everywhere and they're all succeeding, except for the ones that believe they can't.

Oh, Matthew. All right, let's do two things here before we move on. You talk about the gift of gab as kind of the hallmark of an extrovert. I think Susan talks about some other ways we know we are. For instance, you know, I did an article in Forbes. I'll link to it. I saw this intense bias against introverts when my son, who's an introvert, was at university and he was telling me the kind of exercises that one of the professors was giving the class and she was. It was clear who was succeeding and who was failing in these exercises. All of them were extrovert exercises, like who's going to raise their hand and lead the way on that question and who's going to think faster and think on the fly. Whereas my son, that's not. He can't do that as well. So can you give us a few other things that will help people kind of self. I don't want to say diagnose. That sounds like an issue. Self identify. What do you think makes an introvert?

So firstly, there's this image that I share on social media from time to time. And it's this professor sitting with his group of students. One's a giraffe, one's a monkey, one's a goldfish. And he's like, today's exercise is, everyone's going to climb that tree. Well, of course, the goldfish probably isn't going to do too well. Now, of course, the goldfish can swim underwater, and I'm pretty sure the monkey wouldn't do so well with that. So everybody has natural strengths and disadvantages. And I think that one thing that is important here is I'm not extrovert bashing here, right? Everybody has their burdens to bear, right? Extroverts, you know, some might say they're not the best listeners.

They talk too much. We don't leave the space for, you know, a mutuality or.

That's the thing is that extroverts know that they can get training. And more importantly, if you're working in an organization, HR will send you to active listening training. You know, they'll show you how to become more empathetic. And, you know, because of that, they can get better at becoming more rounded individuals. The difference is that introverts burdens, they think they can't get past them. And it was really interesting. I did this interview on an extroverted person's podcast, and when we first met, off show, and I won't say who it is, but when I said, she says, you don't look like an extrovert as an introvert. And I laughed and I said, you know, I know that everyone sees introverts as the, you know, the acne, real kid, which I was growing up, by the way, with braces. Maybe I should go and hide under a bridge. But that's not what introverts are. It's that a lot of people have this stigma. And Susan talks about the stigma that introverts have. But the truth is, introversion has nothing to do with looks. It has nothing to do with whether you can be a great leader, a great network, or great salesperson. It purely is. And look, we can get into the technicalities of the way to classify, but it gets too confusing. Am I shy? Am I highly sensitive? Way too confusing. So let's simplify it. If you draw your energy from being with people, you're an extrovert. If you draw your energy by being by yourself, you're an introvert. Now, that doesn't mean you can't do things. I mean, there's a great example, Jim Cathcart, who's one of the. I think he's the most award winning speaker in the world. He's a close personal friend of mine. And when I founded Small Business Festival, which inc. Listed as the number three conference in America for small business, we put on hundreds of free events across the country every year to support small business. Jim wanted to support the events. So he came down for the three day event in Austin, the premium event. And he was in and around the event, he was the closing speaker. But he was involved the whole time. You know, so was I. I was doing interviews, I was, you know, introducing people. But at the end of those three days, he was so wide and charged that he wanted to go and experience the live music capital of the world in Austin. I, on the other hand, wanted to go home, put on a hoodie, watch a Netflix show and talk to no one in a dark room, unfortunately. Well, fortunately he was my guest, so I took him down to Rainey street and I never in my life had to ask a 70 year old if I can please go home at midnight. Jim put me in that position and.

I do want to share. And then we're going to move on to networking. It's a spectrum. So I'm. I can be an extreme extrovert myself, but after I've had that kind of stimulation, I need my, myself. The extreme extrovert need time. So it is a spectrum, people. But, but here's what I want to understand from you. Can you. And we didn't talk about this before, so if I'm putting you on the spot, let me know. I think networking is difficult for a lot of people for a lot of reasons. For instance, I found that if you don't like your work, or let's say I'm working with Justin Brady to look at how many entrepreneurs are faking and misleading people about how successful they are. You know, when you are struggling, when you're not bringing in enough money, when you hate your work, when you're in a toxic culture, it's really hard to network because you hate it. And so I teach people how to find the sliver of thing that they're proud of and excited. But what I'd love to know from you, if you can do this, can you tell us three or four things that make networking harder for introverts besides the obvious of, you know, we all think about networking as being in a big room and handing out business cards. Well, no one should be doing that ever again. You know, that's not how you network. But can you, can you tell us what do you think introverts struggle Most with. In terms of networking?

Yeah, sure. I think the biggest thing is how they define networking. As you said, we need originally, we need a new word for it. And the reason for that is, you know, I think that the way networking has kind of evolved is interesting. So, you know, there used to be these little community town before we all lived in big cities. There used to be these little communities and everyone really cared about authenticity and that was super important. And then opened up the world of door to door sales and traveling salespeople and people would go into a neighborhood, sell to everybody and then leave, which is where everybody became, oh, it's better to be extroverted. Then we moved into these big cities and people started to network and what happened is they networked the way door to door sales happened. Right. You'd be that you'd present this false reality, you'd have these big personalities and who cares? You're probably never going to run into, I mean, if you're in New York City, what's the chance you're going to run into the same person again, Right? So that focal point really leads to one of two types of networkers. The people that are very comfortable trading it, like door to door sales, which is what I really call transactional networking. Do you want to buy something from me? Do you want to buy something from me? What about you? What about you? It's horrible. And you see people dart from person to person in a room, you know, and it just feels wrong. Now for most introverts, we don't want to do it that way. And most, a lot of extroverts don't want to do it that way either. But what that then leads to is what I call aimless networking, which is where we kind of don't really talk about what we do. We have this false personality, but we have these very shallow conversations where we barely get to know people. And then when somebody asks us what we do, we either say, let's say I'm a business coach and somebody goes, oh, I need coaching. How much do you cost? And now we're talking about price, how uncomfortable right away. Or they say, oh, I had coaching before, it didn't really work out for me. And now we've got to say, oh no, we're different. I've got magic Rudy slippers. It just doesn't work right. So it then becomes this convince and control. So what happens is people even retract further and they try to avoid talking about what they do altogether. So then they walk out after having these really shallow Conversations with people and they're like, oh, networking didn't really work for me. Well, the truth is, it does work. You're just doing it wrong. So in my book I talk about what I call strategic networking, which is you need to understand how you handle an entire networking event. Now, for the introverts that are listening, that doesn't mean you lose your job or realize you haven't got enough clients. Book a networking event in and then try and distance yourself from thinking about it until you have to go, try and talk yourself out of going and then in the car, drive there and then go to the event and hope for the best. You guaranteed to fail, right? What you need to realize in today's digitally connected world, firstly, if you don't know who your niche is, then you may be going to the right, you might be going to the wrong networking event. Secondly, in today's world, we can go on and say if it's a meetup group, even if it's a virtual meetup group or a live meetup group, we can literally go online, look at the people's profiles that have registered to go connect with them on LinkedIn beforehand and check, you know, and then have a dialogue with them. You can make sure that you end up going to a networking room where you've got a whole bunch of pre planned conversations right now. I mean, that blows me away that people don't do this. Like as an introvert, I don't want to go in and end up finding myself talking to a person wants to transactionally pitch me on, you know, home insurance just because I walked up to the first person I could see because I was too scared to look around. So because of that, I like to go in and feel like I'm going to a whole series of planned meetings. It makes such a difference. But then thirdly, one of the things I find is people struggle to articulate the value of what they do. And this is so vitally important. And they generally don't find a way to connect it with their passion, which makes them feel incongruent, inauthentic the whole way through. So what's interesting is, you know, firstly, you know, I find that it's so easy to connect passion with what they do, even if it's a job they don't particularly like. And the reason for that is that why they go out and they struggle to articulate the value of what they do is because they've been focusing or trading in their passions for the practical for so long, but they got into doing what they do for a reason. You know, I had this client, Nick Jensen, he was a life insurance salesperson. And funnily enough, because we just said the last thing you want to do is walk into a life insurance salesperson. Let's use that as an example. But literally what he came to me and he said, matt, I'm an introvert. And as soon as I say to someone that I'm a life insurance person, they want, you can see the eyes scream and they want to run away. So they'll politely listen to me for two and a half minutes and then, you know, they'll find a way to go to the bathroom, the bar, get away from me. And I mean, it's worse online, right? If you think you've got three minutes of politely listening to, you know, face to face, you got half a second online before they click your tab or close it or unfriend you or unconnect from you. So he said, how do I talk about it in a way that doesn't feel so uncomfortable? And I said, well, let's talk about why you actually got into insurance in the first place. I said, why? Why? And he said, well, I'm just, I just really feel like people need a lot of help with, you know, and I don't want people to, you know, to not have insurance. I said, let's go deeper than that. I mean, what about that person that struggles by like $50,000 a year, right, that, you know, if they don't have insurance and something goes wrong, I have no money versus the person that's making $250,000 a year. Which one of those would best suit you to work with? Like, who would you feel more passionate about? His answer, obviously the 250 person. Because they can buy more, right? They can afford more. Well, that's not really what we're going for.

I was hoping that wasn't the answer.

No, not the answer I wanted. Right. When we tried to connect it with passion, I said, okay, let's separate this for a second. What about the person that studied hard at high school, got into the right university, you know, maybe, you know, got amazing marks at Harvard and got that C level executive job and now they earn 250,000 versus the person that goes in and maybe didn't do so well in school, but started their own business straight out of school and they got to start their own business. They're now employing other people and now they're making 250,000. Which one of those would you prefer to help? And he Said, well, obviously the small business owner. I said, why? And he said, well, I just feel like they deserve it more. I'm like, okay, explain that. And he said, well, I had a grandfather that started his own farm and he employed all of these people, but he never really prioritized his own retirement, his own insurance. And he got sick in later life and he had to sell the farm to handle to deal with his health. He said, the last 10 years of my grandfather's life, I just watched him sit on a couch in a tiny apartment watching tv. He just died. He was a shell of himself. He said, I just never want anyone else to have to deal with that. I said, okay, great. What if we did this? What if instead of calling yourself an insurance salesperson, why don't we call yourself the Hustle Lifeguard? And then when people ask you about what that means, because, I mean, the way our brains are programmed, like we want to put you in a box and disqualify you, but if we can't put you in a box, we have to ask, what exactly is that? And then I want you to respond with your passion and mission for serving the hustlers of this world. And then go into a story about your grandfather or one of the clients that you've worked with where because of what you did, you were able to make sure that they didn't end up in lives that they can't stand. And all of a sudden, he was book solid with small business owners that saw him as the only logical choice. The funny thing is that people could see his passion that didn't even own small businesses and said, look, I'm not in small business, but can I work with you? Because I don't trust insurance salespeople, so I'd prefer to work with you. Now his business is booming. Instead of working for an insurance company, he now has his own insurance agency. His business has exploded, all because we connected with why he got into selling insurance in the first place, as opposed to the practical of, I need to go in and talk about insurance.

I have so much to highlight of that. Can I. You know, when I talk about how we show ourselves on LinkedIn, I'm just going to start with one little thing. That headline under your name should not be your title. It should be exactly what you're talking about. And look, if you want to think of it as a formula, think of it as a formula. It's what you're doing for whom and what are the outcomes that matter to you. So I might say I'm a Finding brave coach, speaker, trainer dedicated to the advancement of women in business or helping women thrive at the highest level. And the other thing I want to highlight, Matthew, is and I think speakers who are listening, people who want to be speakers. Any talk I give, and it's been hundreds, I start with why I'm standing here in front of you. And it's because I had an 18 year corporate career that was fraught with crisis and I'll share those crises. And so that's why I do this work. And I think that that's what you're helping people identify that we, we have. And you know, for some people, they don't like their work and there isn't a good reason why they're doing it. They did it for money. Well then you, if you can't even come up with a reason why, why this connect, then you're in the wrong field. But most people, something that aligns with the feeling of doing good in the world, which is so great, so amazing. Let me ask something else here you talked about on our previous podcast interview. Something that I loved about how you created a system for yourself to go from 93 slam doors to wait a minute, I got to know how to make a difference in day minute one. But one thing I want to talk about with you, and I bet you have a different word for it, is curiosity. What I try to teach people who don't have the gift of gab, but even those who do, like, let's say I might have a gift of gab. When I go to a room of people I don't know, the very first thing I do is I'm really interested. What do you do? What do you do for a living? What brought you here? Who do you know? It's curiosity and it's not curiosity for let me wait till I can insert myself. It's true curiosity. Like what this podcast is for me, I have no idea where we're going to go. I'm just listening so intently. Can you talk about, I'm guessing curiosity is a strategy, right?

Well, it's also an introvert advantage. I mean we love, we love to be the one not talking. Firstly and secondly, we love to empathize and truly listen. Active listening is one of our core skills. So the thing that most people struggle with, especially introverts when they think of networking is they believe that they need to be more extra extroverted to succeed. And actually what they need to do is be more themselves to succeed. But sure, they need to understand some basic strategies on how to Introduce themselves, how to start a dialogue. You know, there, there are certain things that we do need a system for, but then after that our natural strengths, you know, work amazingly well. You know, I interviewed Ivan Meisner on my podcast the Introvert's Edge and it was interesting. He did a study with all of the BNI members and you know, this, I mean, across the country, across the world. And the number one skill set, the top 10 skill sets were all introverted qualities. Listening, you know, being interested, asking questions, you know, those sorts of things. The bottom qualities that people didn't like were self promotion, talking about themselves. You know, funnily enough, social media savviness was on that list as well. But you know, because they'd, oh, let's take a photo, let's post it. Which introverts probably don't like doing. But what's interesting is that when you go to a networking event, if you go in and start saying I, I, I, I, I, everyone's going to be immediately turned off. So what I talk about is building the law of retroposity bank, right? So people are always worried, oh, I've got nothing to give the person that I'm speaking to. I've got nothing to give the person I'm speaking to. Sometimes they've had a pair a bad day and you being empathetic to their situation is enough. Sometimes they've had a great day and you just being excited about what they've achieved is enough. Sometimes, especially for a lot of the coaches listening, sometimes now they don't want a coaching session, but a couple of ideas and some inspiration around what they can achieve is enough. So one of the things that I always suggest is the number one thing you should do when you start meeting and talking to someone is ask them what they do and get them talking. And then when they say something about what they do, ask them, you know, ask them a question and then get excited for them and empathize with them and ask follow on questions. At some point in that conversation the person will go, oh my gosh, Kathy, I can't believe I've been talking about myself for the last 15 minutes. I can't believe I haven't asked you what you do. And you then get the opportunity to then tell them what you do. And if you say something like I'm the rapid growth guy or I'm the authority architect, I'm the hustle lifeguard, I'm the mission mason, they're going to go, it's like their brain's going to malfunction. Because they can't put you in a box. And then they'll say, what exactly is that? And then you get to explain on their invitation. And because you politely listened to them and you gave them so much value, there's no way they'll interrupt you. There's no way they won't listen to you explain. And if you're truly passionate about what you do, they'll also feel that because, and this is really interesting, I think that people can go their entire lives not being passionate about what they do and a lot of months at a time without being around someone that's truly passionate about what they do. So sometimes, when after you've invested in them, even if you. And you should always practice what you're going to say and prepare before you go. I mean, you know, some of your favorite actors, when you watch them on TV shows and movies, I promise you, they're reading from the script. They just spent time learning it. That's why they sound so authentic and natural, and they're learning how to be someone else. You just got to learn to be a better version of you. Right? The best version of yourself. But then I promise you, they're going to listen. And that might be the first time they've heard. You know, when I used to go out and cold call, sometimes I would have somebody at the end say, matt, I never really listened to any cold callers. I never really listened to any salespeople. But you've been like sunshine in my day because I could feel your energy and your excitement. And you're the first person that was actually smiling that I've spoken to in, like, two days. Like, you've got to understand, when you're out networking, a lot of those people don't want to be there either. Right. But if they feel your passion, your genuine career, they feel inauthentic and incongruent because they were you before you learned how to do it the right way. And because of that, what is going to happen? They're going to go, wow, I wish I could care so much like you do. Well, the answer is they could, but they'd have to do the legwork. And if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, every time I go in, I just define myself by my functional skill. People put me in a commodity box, and then I end up defending what I do. Well, that's why you don't enjoy networking. If you leave it off until the last minute, and then you don't plan, you don't know who you're going to speak to. You're going to the wrong networking event. Our mutual friend Judy Robinette, who wrote the forward for my first book, she says, you know, you might just be in the wrong room. Make sure you're in the right room. In her networking book. And a lot of people I find, like, if you're a PR agent, your ideal clients are not going to be at the PR agent meetup group. Think about which rooms to go to and make sure that your ideal marketplace is there. Because then when you share a story, they're going to be like, oh, my gosh, I've got that exact same problem. I need what you have. And then here's the key. Do not sell to them at that point.

Pitch them.

It happens all the time. People like, I do it with role playing with some of my clients from time to time. And I'll say, okay, let's do the networking play and let's play it out. And then they'll get through it and they'll nail the script because they've been practicing for days to get it right. And then I'll say, oh, that's terrific. I want that. You know, what's the process of working with you? And they're like, oh, so the process of working with me, they get straight into the pitch, and then I'll turn around and go, oh, John, great to see you. I. It haven't seen. Seen you in forever. And I'll show. I'll act like somebody's just walked up in a networking event, and then they're like, oh, I get it now, right? If I pitch, I can get. They can get distracted, we can get interrupted. But also, people are going to remember that you pitched the best thing in the world to say. And, you know, I talk about, you know, I actually, this is great. What do you.

Should you say, I'm at the edge of my seat. What do you say?

You just say, you know, it was interesting. I did this at a mentor event, actually, and. And I had a group that I was talking to, and they're like, matt, we want to work with you. Like, how much does it cost to work with you? Right? And I said, look, I said, cathy, look, I appreciate that you want to work with me, and I really am ecstatic about the fact that you feel like this might be something that fits with you. But I'm sure you were here to obviously meet people and not talk about what specific services that perhaps I might be able to offer. But also, I don't know enough about you to make sure that I'm ideal fit right now. So what I would love to do, if it's possible, is why don't we set up a coffee for tomorrow or maybe a zoom meeting for tomorrow where I can get to understand exactly what you're going through a little bit more so I can make sure I am the right fit. Plus there might be some direct pointers that I can give you, which means you may not actually need to work for me, work with me, but if I am the right fit, then we can talk about what that might look like. Would that be okay with you? And the response is yes. What was interesting in this scenario is that him and his partner were in the car on the way home from the event. When we spoke the next day, you know, they became coaching clients of mine and when I told them the price, they looked at each other and said yes, because they said, we decided that if it was this price or less, we were going to go through with it. But if it was any, if it was more, we weren't able to afford it. And what was interesting is the price tag that they, if I had have dropped it on them in the meeting, they wouldn't have had that conversation. They would have had to go away and think about it. They probably would have gone, oh, well, maybe he doesn't really have any clients because he jumped on me like a cobra the moment we said we were interested. Instead they went, wow, he didn't really care about signing me up, he didn't care about selling to me. And he pushed back on us and said, let's catch up so I can understand. And that credibility that that gives you, no one likes to buy from someone that's desperate. If you push back, they'll appreciate it. And it's not like you're being rude, you're just saying this is not what you came here for. It's also not what I came here for. And I also know that I don't know enough right now. And I want to make sure I serve you the most. And because of that, we need to meet up separately. And you know, unfortunately, when I do this at networking events, sometimes it takes, I mean, there are, sometimes it takes people three months to get a phone call with me, but I still prefer to do it that way because then I know exactly that the client that I'm speaking to is the right fit for me. Otherwise you end up with a client and there's nothing worse. But I, I can create a rapid growth business out of anything. But I promise you, there is nothing worse than A rapid growth business with customers you do not enjoy working with. So it's worth the extra conversation.

Oh my gosh. I want to highlight that, ask you one more question, then I'm aware by time I got to let you go. I was speaking with who was on my podcast, Jamie Masters, who's the eventual millionaire. You know Jamie. And one thing I saw on her own website was there's an application you have to fill out to even speak with her. And I know you probably get inundated like I do, but you know, I have a big following on LinkedIn so I'm hearing from too many people in the world that I could, that I can possibly respond to, although I try. The minute I put this coaching application, when someone says I've heard about you here, I heard, read your Forbes blog. I send them to this application and it gives enough information that I know what the right fit is for them. So for instance, if they are, you know, really hemorrhaging money, I'm not going to try to pitch them my private coaching programs. I'm not because I don't think it's responsible for them to pay that. But here's some resources that are lower cost or free. That coaching application has changed everything for me and it also, when it is, when I can sense that it is the right fit, then we have a conversation and you know, it's just, it's just a wonderful thing. So I think it really is highlighting what you're talking about. Now here's my final question. I wrote a post about, I wrote, I've written 10 times about this because again I have this large following. Matt, I'm so annoyed with how many people pitch me after we connect. And for instance, you know, I have two books out and they may be a self publishing publisher. Do you want to write a book? Well, you didn't friggin even look at my profile, did you? Or somebody just asked me to be part of a group that I'm not a fit for. And honestly, when I'm in a bad mood, what I want to respond is no thanks. And I want you to read this post which is do not pitch people when you've immediately connected with them. What can we do to get through to people that this is worse than a bad approach?

It's offensive, you know, it's interesting. So again, this is coming from, and this is back to what I was talking about. If somebody has to persevere through your pitch or struggle to understand what you do for two to three minutes, then when you bring it online, it's going to be even more atrocious, right? Because you can't just excuse yourself to the bar and there's hundreds of people, thousands of people that can come. I mean, I have the same thing. People, you know, oh, I see you launching a book. Do you want all these services? I'm like, well, if you knew anything about business, you'd understand. If my book's coming out now, then I would have had to organize that six months ago, right? So. And you know, if you were good at business and you did understand publishing, you would have known there was an announcement two years ago that the book deal was signed. So you could have come to me sooner. So a lot of the time, and especially during this Covid environment, people have been forced into online, don't know how to behave in that world. So because of that they're like, oh my gosh. And I feel for them because it's coming from desperation. Oh my gosh, I've got no clients, I need to get a client right now. So. And the fact of the matter is, you know, when I learned how to sell, they said, you know, we just throw mud up against the wall, we see what sticks. Sounds fun until you're the mud, right? But the when you have to go out and sell to 100. If I had to sell to 93 doors to get one deal every time, I could have said, well, that's the best I can do. The problem with online is I can mass produce that hundred times, right? So that's really where the issue is. So you've got these hardcore salespeople that are used to the end. I have to say the world has talked about the hustlers. Like it's a great thing to grind it out and it is a great thing to grind it out and hustle through it when you have a small business. But not until you learn the systems and processes to do it right. Otherwise you're going to be working much harder than you need to. So for the people that are doing those straight pitches, I understand that it's coming from a point of desperation, but you need to understand that what that is is like a long term commitment to feast and famine and always a fight to deal with just on price. So what's interesting and I, you know, people listen stuck in this though because you know, I mean if you've got like for instance, I had a client was copywriting service and she was constantly pitching people for two and a half hours subscriptions and because it's such a commoditized industry. She was only getting piecemeal work. So we called her the mission maven. But she focused on creating great content for social media and reaching out and providing people the fact great access to this content, free stuff to provide them value. But she only focused on health tech industries. So because of that, she only reached out to the people in the health tech space. Now we structured a packaging and pricing to focus only on the health tech space. And she went from making two and a half thousand dollars a month to making 40,000amonth within six months. But it was a focus on the right message to the right niche, the right stories, the right content. If all you're doing is doing connections and blank pitching, the problem with that is you're burning. And the truth is, in today's world, you can continue to churn and burn. However, it's just like the old door to door sales world, right? If you treat it that way. What I'm loving now is it's actually shifting back to like small communities because today everyone knows everyone, everyone's connected, right? You and I have just talked. I mean, Jamie, I've been on her podcast four times.

Oh my.

Her and I have a virtual beer every two weeks. No way. So, you know, but this is the thing, right? So, because what happens is if you want to go from here to here, right? And I know there's a lot of audio listeners, if you want to go from struggling to survive to really succeeding, you have to realize, and here's the one thing I want you to understand, there are not one type of people in a networking room. There's not one type of person, you know, in, you know, on an online networking scenario. So anybody that thinks they're networking for prospects, that is a literal lifestyle of feast and famine, horrible. You're actually networking for these two other types of people that are in the room. The first group I would class I classify as what I call momentum partners. These are the people that introduce you to other people that can give you value or clients because they believe and genuinely believe in that you're work. Now, there's no formal agreement of exchange, but you also do the same for them. Like Judy Robinette and I are great momentum partners. Like when we first met, we've introduced each other to thousands of podcasts. Yours have won. Kathy was one of them as well. Like she introduced them. I already know Kathy, but she always did that for me and I always did that for her because she does amazing work and she believes, thank goodness, because she knows everybody, that I do amazing work. And then there's this higher level group which I call the champions of the World. Now, the champions are people like Ivan Meisner. They're the people that give credibility to your work. So, for instance, if I was going to see your profile on LinkedIn, and you know, I didn't have a big network and I didn't have a lot of social capital, right, Cathy, you would either be a momentum partner or a champion for me, depending on what industry I was in. So if I treated you like a prospect anyway, but you've just killed that conversation. So what happens is people go in and they clarify everyone as prospects and then wait for the person like you to say, I could have been something amazing for you. And then, oh, I'm sorry, let's try that instead. Instead, what you've got to realize is that the least value people in the room are the prospects. Because if you meet a momentum partner, they'll introduce you to podcast hosts. If you meet champions, they'll give you work credibility that will lead to thousands of clients as opposed to just one person. So go into any networking room virtually or face to face with a mindset of, I'm looking for momentum partners, I'm looking for champions, and if I have to settle, I'd love a prospect.

Oh, my God, I love it. I love it. Oh, I just can't. I'm so grateful and I've learned so much from you, Matthew. And, you know, we were just chatting people, in case you're interested. We think we might partner in a very fun way in terms of, hopefully we can do that. My amazing career coach certification. Because. Because so many coaches have beautiful things to offer in the world, but they're really struggling with all of this and you have so much to offer. So where do we learn about you? Where do we get the book? Where do we take your course? Tell us. Tell us all of them.

The book came out, what, two days ago now?

Oh, that's right.

So, yeah, I'm really excited about that. You know, it's been great to get so many, you know, testimonials already. Susan Cage shared my work as well, which I'm excited about. So, you know, my publisher hates me when I say this, but for those listening, you don't have to buy my book. You know, you can go to the introvertsedge.com networking and you'll be able to download the first chapter for free. The first chapter will get you over the belief that you can't network and show you why you can be amazingly successful. And then it will outline the process for really learning how to become a successful network worker. And you know, if you go to the introverts edge.com it'll do the same for sales. It'll show you how to overcome your disbelief that you can sell. And then, you know, it'll outline the full seven step sales process. And you know, I always joke if you do nothing more than just grab the seven steps chapter headings out of that, put what you already currently say in, you'll realize some things don't fitness some gaping holes, throw this stuff out that doesn't fit. You shouldn't be saying that to clients. And then fill the holes and you'll double your sales in the next 60 days. So I would suggest download the first chapter. That's a great place to start. And for those people that you know are very on social media all the time, you know, make sure you check me out on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, TikTok now as well, we provide a ton of free content. I mean, I learned how to sell watching YouTube videos so I return the favor every chance I get. There's a ton of free content I put out there and you know, I'd love to, I'd love to provide, you know, any content that people see as valuable because, you know, we've got such a big job to do and there it's been great to see so many other introverted coaches out there. But, you know, the introverted service provider, they're my people so I'm doing my best to support them in every way I can.

I can't thank you enough. And you know what, people, I just need to say this. There's so many people rocking it at a big level, but when you speak to them privately, they don't have that generosity of soul and spirit and it's disappointing. Well, Matthew, you're the opposite of that. You know, we've just talked and talked and talked and I have a feeling we would talk more if we both didn't have things to do. But you know, when you meet someone who is so generous, who would even say, you don't have to buy my book, this is a person to follow and I hope you will. And all the links are going to be below. If you're not inspired here, we're just not doing our job. So we want to hear. I have a feeling Matthew's pretty responsive. So wherever you see this, please send us a question if you don't understand. If something didn't make sense, we'll both answer as best we can and race out and buy Matthew's book today and check out his podcast. It's so great. Matthew, thank you so much. And I'm wishing you a raging success for your book, but I don't even have to wish that because it's going to happen. It's it's a given.

Thank you so much, Kathy. It was a pleasure to be on. Thanks for having me on the show again.

My pleasure. Come back soon with your third book, you know, in two weeks when you write that one. All right, everybody have this is right in the new year. We're wishing you a fantastic new year full of a lot of shifts and transformation and you being you at the highest level. So have a great week, and we'll see you next time. Bye.