Finding Brave 165: How to Truly Heal From Extreme Stress and Trauma, with Mark Goulston

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. How are you? This is coming to you, I believe, February 25th. So we're already into winter here. I hope you're having a wonderful, wonderful winter and a really wonderful 2021. And to that point, I am so thrilled and truly honored to have our guest today, Dr. Mark Gordon Goulston. You're in for a treat, people. And I have a feeling because I happen to know that what Mark lives and breathes and his new book around how do we not just cope really, but thrive and heal after trauma? I mean, I really feel that so many of you that I hear from in all sorts of arenas are experiencing trauma. But the vast majority of people who aren't trained in this world don't know that term, term, don't understand what that means. They think it has to be we've gone to war or seen a murder for us to be traumatized. So we are going to talk about how do we truly heal? And Mark is the man to do it. So thank you again for taking the time. I'm so appreciative.

You know, one of the nice things about people saying nice things about you, it gives you something to live up to.

Kath, I don't think you have any problem with that, my dear, but I agree with you. It's like, like, oh, I better live up to that expectation. I know you will not disappoint people. Let me tell you about Dr. Goulston. Dr. Mark Goulston is a renowned psychiatrist, former UCLA professor, former FBI and police hostage negotiation trainer. How fascinating. And the best selling author or co author of eight books. It's just incredible. With his just released book, why Cope when youn Can Heal Heal how healthcare heroes of COVID 19 can recover from PTSD. He introduces an approach called Surgical Empathy which we're going to learn all about. That he used for 25 years with suicidal patients and none of them died by suicide. Oh, Mark. He is also the host of my Wake Up Call wonderful podcast that I was so honored to be on, which came out in July. Our episode, I hope you'll check that out. We'll link to it below. And you have a weekly LinkedIn live show, no strings attached. Do not miss these shows, people. All right, Marc, let's dig in here. Holy cow. First of all, you know, you sent a wonderful prep sheet, which my guests often do. And there are three bullets that I want to share that we're going to be talking about. What is the difference between stress and trauma? You know, people know I'M a former therapist, but I can't wait to hear your definition of these and how we can tell. Is this just a stressful time or is this trauma that I'm facing? What happens to a person's mind as they continue to function through trauma and what is surgical empathy and how does that help? All right, let us dig in. We're going to go talk about your book because it's so important, but can we start with that? Can you tell us what trauma is and what it looks like in the brain and how we function around it? Can you do that for us?

Well, the difference between stress and trauma is we're all under stress. But when you're under stress, you can still focus on your goals. You can still move forward, sometimes with difficulty, but you can still keep your eye on where you're going. Stress gets bigger and bigger and bigger and crosses over into distress, distress you can't live with or you can't make it through. The goal then becomes, how do I relieve the distress? And when you think of veterans, when you think of healthcare workers, when you think of first responders who are duty bound, duty bound to protect all of us, how do they keep stress from becoming trauma? Trauma has two components. Trauma can be the outside thing that just happened to you that just knocked you flat and off your feet. But it also has to do with your inner reserve. Sometimes when the present that you're living into, walking into, overwhelms you. If you can reach inside and there's a there, there, meaning you've internalized things from your childhood, from coaches and mentors where you feel solid, where you feel you can take the hit and deal with it, then what happens is it's really not traumatic because you're able to deal with it. But if when you reach inside and you can't move forward, there's no there. There's if. What you've internalized growing up was instead of the loving mentor, coach, teacher, mentor coach that we needed from our parents and our teachers, instead of internalizing that that resulted in determination, if instead you were criticized or you were neglected or you were coddled. When you reach inside, you don't come up with a sense that you can make it through it. So then it takes much less to traumatize you. I mean, you and I have run into some people who have had so much internal trauma from their childhood that they're so thin skinned, just even a you've got food in your teeth will traumatize them, you know, because it's crazy.

That you Say that I said to somebody who's, I'm really close with, you have a little lipstick on your teeth. You would think I had told them they were, you know, a terrible person. You're right. You are right. And I want to amplify this. Mark is talking, you know, about that big picture of people on the front lines who are duty bound to help. I want to also talk about, you know, I have clients and course members that they tell me I need more self confidence. And I will say, tell me what that looks like. What do you mean? And what will emerge is just what you're talking about. I have a boss who's mean, but I am sensing, I take it worse than other people. And that was me. In my corporate life, I'd be in a meeting, you know, the boss would say something a little harsh, I'd look at everyone else. Nobody cared when he did it to them. But I'm like licking my wound for days afterward. So I want people to understand, you know, you are what your childhood taught you to be, unless you healed it or unlearned it. So you're so right about that.

That's not about trauma, but it's one of my favorite stories about what an internalized solidness can do for you. And it. So you speak with leaders, and leaders will get this story. In 1997, Tiger woods was playing in the Masters, right? And he was this phenomenon. And in the front nine, he shot 40. So anybody who plays golf knows 40 isn't a good front nine score. So he felt like the wheels were coming off. So that was. He felt traumatized. And he went to his father, Earl woods, who was there through his career, coached him, believed in him. And Tiger said, essentially, I don't know what to do. And Earl said, you've been here a hundred times before, just do what you need to do. And he shot 18 under par.

Good grief. He just needed that, which, which was.

Never equaled until this year. But, but that's what happens when you've internalized someone who's been there with you, believed in you, didn't coddle you, didn't over criticize you and just didn't neglect you. And what happens is you may not even remember that they were there for you and with you and believing in you. But. But you've internalized that as opposed to someone, it's your own fault, or why don't you just bail? Why don't you quit? Or we'll bail you out.

We'll find out. And you're losing once again. You Know what a story? I want to ask you two quick questions, then we need to continue. When people say to me, you know, Kathy, what's the difference in your mind between coaching and therapy? There's a lot of differences. But one way I explain it is, you know, you're coming to me because you're having a hard time with something. So everything isn't hunky dory, clearly. But to me, having been a therapist, the difference is when. And you kind of touched on it. I think when your level of functioning is continually being disrupted and it's not a one off thing, it is not moving forward, your level of functioning in life, then we probably have a therapeutic issue. Would you agree with that assessment?

I agree with that. And I know what's important to you is that you give usable tips to your listeners. People want tactics.

That's it.

So here's something that I think is at the crossroads of coaching and therapy. There was a 60 minute segment that Oprah Winfrey reported on and it was about a child abuse center in Wisconsin. And in 60 minutes overtime, the reporter asked her about it and Oprah Winfrey said it was the most life changing story I've done in my career. That's a lot for Oprah Winfrey to say. And the reporter said, well, what do you mean? And she said, these kids are acting out because they were abused. But the whole approach of the staff is whenever someone's acting out, and you can do this as a coach or a therapist is to say to the other person, what happened to you? That this is how you're acting. And the reporter said that was life changing. So obviously Oprah was admitting that when someone does something wrong that she was, she could slip into shaming. Why'd you do that? What were you thinking? You know, But I think that's beautiful approach anyone, and they're acting up in a way that's not serving them or other people. I think if you lean and say what happened to you, that this is how you're acting, it's both therapeutic, but I think it can be great coaching.

And it's empathic as well. And we learned in therapy every behavior can be understood when you understand the context behind it. Every single behavior. I love it. Let me ask you one more thing and then talk about your book and why you wrote it and your co authors. Amazing. What a story. I do think we need to say to people though, that tell me what you think. We can have an incredible bedrock of confidence and self love, self acceptance. But there are events in our Lives that any human would struggle overcoming. So you know, when I was a new therapist, I did a weekend retreat with first responders of 911 and their spouses. Mark, I bet you feel the same way. I literally fell in love with every one of them. Here they are. I don't think the average person or the typical person, including me, knows what these people go through and what they give up to do this work. I mean, we all have our thoughts about police and, or firemen. I think if you live their life for half a second, you'll see that they're a different breed. Right. So all of these men and women ran to, you know, the devastation while everyone else was running away. And each of them, you know, was extreme, experiencing relationship problems, emotional problems, every kind of problem you would imagine. So there is some, there are some experiences that I don't think any human is just going to bounce back from. Would you agree with that?

Yeah. And can I unpack a little bit of what you're referring to?

Yeah, please.

So inside, why Cope when youn Can Heal? We have this clumsy term, but it was the best. We came up with the 12 phases emotional algorithm. It's a lousy term, algorithm because an algorithm is something like Lego blocks. If you follow these steps, you begin at A and you'll get to B. And in our studies and our research, what we recognize in people who are veterans, especially veterans, and they're better known to us. And we wrote the book because we don't want health care workers to become the 22 veterans who die every day because of PTSD and suicide. So I want you to picture this.

Wait, 22 veterans die a day, Mark, suicide. What?

22 veterans kill themselves every day. Good gosh. No.

We need your algorithm. Tell us. Go.

Imagine this. You're a health care worker or first responder, maybe you see one death a month in the emergency room and you feel sad about that. You've just seen five. One of them being your supervisor. You've been called upon to do a FaceTime with a dying person and their loved one and you're late by 10 minutes. So it didn't happen. Oh, imagine you're seeing this because there's a lot of moral injury. You know, all these things that you're not able to do. Plus people are looking up at you with fear and you need to be honest with them. And sometimes you don't have good news. You know, when a doctor comes in the room or even a nurse, you know, you're wide eyed with fear. And so this is what Happens, the trauma is what you're seeing. And then the next step is what we call the horror. Terra, fragile trifecta.

The what? Horror. What is it?

Horror, terror, Fragile trifecta. What that means is you're horrified by it. It's a horrific scene. You know, when you get back to your apartment or whatever, you start to feel terrified by what you've seen. You start to feel fragile. And the next thing is you have an oversensing, overriding sense that you could panic. But because you're so duty bound and because your peers are so duty bound and you're helping each other out, your fellow healthcare workers, what happens is you get an adrenaline rush from the danger and that enables you to push away the thoughts, push down the feelings, and the adrenaline insulates you. NBA players can play on a broken leg because of the adrenaline.

Is that why as long as the.

Danger'S coming in, the adrenaline's going up, you can push away thoughts and feelings and you can think to yourself, I can't make it through the next shift. And you blink your eyes and you've been up 48 hours straight, but you know something's going on inside, you know you're going to have to deal with it at some point. And then what happens with veterans, and hopefully will happen when we get past Covid, is when the danger goes away, the adrenaline, insulation goes away. When the adrenaline insulation goes away, the analogy we use is you see something horrifying, you see something terrifying, you feel the fragility, you don't want to panic. It's like taking a cat that's screaming and locking it in the cellar, and then you lock another one in the cellar, then you lock 10, then you lock 100 and you're putting them away because you need to focus and function. Danger goes away, adrenaline goes away. You get a lot of screaming cats in the cellar. And so one of the fears is if you open the door just a little crack, all those screaming cats, all those repressed feelings, all of those pushed away thoughts are going to come out and eviscerate you. So we've come up with surgical empathy as a way of dealing with one cat at a time.

Oh, tell us strategies. What do we do here?

So surgical empathy. And the approach is, and we're going to be doing this in fire teams with veterans and with healthcare workers, but you can do it in a journal, you can do it with a therapist. And so part of what it is is when you go back to those steps, the emotional algorithm. And by the way, after the danger Goes away if it threatens to eviscerate you. All the symptoms of PTSD are efforts to keep the feelings and thoughts from coming up and ripping you apart.

Oh, dear.

And they intrude on your life. You have psychological numbing. You drink too much. You have social isolation. You have a startle reflex. Because just when you're lowering your guard, a pickup truck next to you backfires and you jump. Because it all wants to come through. That's just the way our minds work. Why would veterans want to kill themselves after they're out of the war? Because everything that they saw, experienced, and did wants to come back up. What you push down wants to come back up. And so what happens is we make a distinction between being disabled, recovered, and healed. So disabled, you spend your life trying to avoid being re traumatized by those feelings. Recovered is, you know, I'm coping. You know, it's better than not coping. But you know, I have nightmares. And it's interesting. And you'll know this from therapy and you'll resonate with it when you talk to someone who's been deeply traumatized. Not just healthcare people, but anyone by rape, violence, even a divorce, bankruptcy.

Yeah.

And you look them in the eye and you say, good for you. You're so strong. You got over it. They'll look back and they'll say, I didn't get over it. What do you mean? I got past it. Not the same. Not the same as I was. What do you mean? I'm tentative. I don't put two feet into anything. I watch where I'm going all the time. I know exhaustion. I don't know peace. I have fun. I don't know. Joy. Coping is better than not coping. But it's not quite being alive. Wow. And so in order to get to being alive, in order to heal, you need to go back and rethink and re feel what you pushed away. And surgical and empathy allows you to do that. And here's an exercise. So here's a tip you can use not just if you're traumatized, you can use it whenever you're facing any obstacle and whenever you're tweaked. And I think you're gonna like this. Hopefully you like it. It's called stress relief. Exercise and journal. And what you do. And if we had more time, we do it with you. And I'd make you cry, but I don't want to do it. It's your show.

When we turn off the camera, what.

I would say is think of a person in your life living or Dead, who was there for you when you weren't. Someone who got you through a dark place, someone who believed in you when you didn't. Could be living, could be dead. And if you don't have someone like that, if you're a teenager, take LeBron James. Get a picture of them. You paste it in the inside cover of this journal. And then the distress relief exercise is you imagine they're talking and walking you through the upset. So here are the prompts. You see the picture of that person. I'm even imagining them, the mentors I've had who have all died. And I'm getting. Including Warren Bennis. I'm crying right now. But the first thing you imagine they're saying is, you can get through this. And they're looking at you in your mind's eye. And then they say, write down the day and time because you're going to keep track of this. And then the next step is they say, what happened? And you write down. You don't make it a big essay. And they say, what'd you think when it happened? Oh, I thought. You know, I thought, my career is over. I'm never going to. I thought, I'm going to get fired. What you feel? I'm scared. If I lose my job, it's not a good job market. I don't know where I'm going to work. Then the next one is the pivot point. What does it make you want to do? That's the impulse that you want someone to talk you out of acting on. What does it make you want to do? I want to get drunk. I want to go off the wagon. I want to scream. I want to throw something. I want to run away. And then you allow them to look into you like I'm looking into you. And they just fill you with love and belief, and they say, take a deep breath. Yeah. What would be a better thing to do? And actually, the better thing to do is talking to you in my mind, helping me talk through it. Why would that be a better thing? Because talking to you, I'm feeling appreciative, I'm feeling grateful. I miss you. And I just got a huge surge of oxytocin. And if you're listening in, oxytocin counteracts high cortisol. High cortisol comes out when we're stressed. And in my book, Just Listen, which is behind me, it's in 27 languages, and I speak around the world. I spoke in Moscow with a guy named Daniel Kahneman last year about listening and. And it's about, how do you cause someone to feel felt? And feeling felt is different than feeling understood. Feeling understood. You nod, but there's still a gap between you. But when people feel felt and they feel less alone, they lean towards the feeling felt, and they begin to cry with relief and they begin to start to heal. That was the approach I used as a suicide interventionist, where for 25 years, none of my patients died by suicide.

What do you think the biggest thing was that contributed to that, that you were so successful?

Well, I'll tell you what I think. The thing that was. I've never said this, is that when I finished my training in psychiatry, the fellowship I was going to go in got canceled. So I went into practice. And I think what contributed to it is that I followed a protocol, but because I didn't have to report it. And one of my mentors was one of the pioneers in suicide, a guy named Ed Schneidman. He'd refer me all these suicidal people, so what happened? And maybe you'll be able to re experience this yourself. I'd be there checking boxes, and these were multiple suicide attempters. And I'd look in their eyes and they'd be screaming at me, in their eyes, you're checking boxes and I'm running out of time.

Oh, boy.

And I felt the gap, and I had a choice. Check the boxes, which I would have had to have done if I had.

To report it, you know, meaning people, you have paperwork there that you're saying, you know, do they have a weapon? Are they. Do they have a plan, that kind of thing.

Right now, I cover all those things. But. But as they were screaming at me, I'm running out of time. I put aside the clipboard and listen into their eyes. Here's the difference between clinical empathy and surgical empathy. Try it on for size. So imagine that you're depressed, stressed, you're coming to see me. It's clear you're not coming to me because you're a happy camper. Clinical empathy would be, have you been feeling depressed or anxious? Yes. And how long have you been feeling that? Two months. Has it been affecting your sleep, your appetite? Do you have any?

It's like data gathering.

It's data gathering, you know, and. And you're listening and you're tolerating it because this is a professional. He's trying to help you. Now imagine this. You come in and they say, you're hurting, aren't you? Huh? You're hurting inside a lot, right? You've been depressed or anxious for A while, haven't you? Yeah, and sometimes it gets pretty bad. Yeah, sometimes you don't know how you're going to make it through it. And that's happened recently, hasn't it? Yeah. You feel alone when you're there. Tell me about the last time you were there.

Good grief, that's powerful.

Do you feel the difference?

You know what's crazy, Mark, I'm going to ask this Chris question of you. When you talk like that, speak like that, ask those questions. I am that person that like, immediately I am projecting myself to being that person, the place, the patient. And I think maybe two things are happening. I have been not suicidal, but who hasn't been depressed down, you know, sexually harassed, abused in emotionally at work? So when you're doing that, I'm actually empathizing with the patient that you're speaking to completely. But does that make sense to you? Is that projection? Is that. What is it? What's going on there?

Well, I think what's happened is I was so right on with something you've experienced in your life. Not over, but some of it. You haven't. And so what happened as I tapped into still hurt from it in you and inside you had. What happened is the interview switched to something which you leaned into it because you were. You were partially re experiencing a flood of times when you were sexually harassed. I remember I was depressed. Boy, am I glad I got through that. And I was inviting you in a safe way. It's okay, let me know. And to the extent that you haven't, none of us have totally felt it through. You felt that and that was why the dissonance? Because there's a part of you that's doing an information gathering interview.

What the heck? I'm a podcast host. I didn't sign up for therapy. I'm teasing. I mean, I went right there.

I was inviting you into a healing experience and you leaned into it because, you know, I'm not sure that we're ever fully healed from the things that happen to us, but we want to be.

Mark, that's so gorgeous. Can I amplify or highlight three things and you tell me if these make sense? It happened when I was on your podcast. It happened when we were speaking before your podcast. I think there's something that you do with your eyes that is so riveting. So let me even tell you in other podcasts, you know, if I'm thirsty, I drink a cup of coffee, you know, take a sip with you. I don't even. I don't veer. 1/2amillimeter. I want to ask about that, but I wanted to say two other things that I think I want to amplify so people can understand we need to be doing this as family members, parents, managers, leaders. I don't mean everyone. We're going to be doing therapy with people. But the other thing you did was, I think, by the questions you asked, you validated. There was no judgment. The ticking of the boxes feels distant and therefore judgy. The. You know, I'm guessing you're here because, you know there's been some depression. Yeah. And you're asking. And you're asking them to say yes every time, and you know the answer. They wouldn't be in the room if the answer was no to any of those questions. Right.

But I'm inviting them to feel feelings that they haven't fully felt.

I get that. But I think there's also this piece that the way you ask it, you feel validated in it, where I think so many people, when they ask questions, it's not a validation. So maybe it's just who you really are. But the other piece is the empathy of it. You know, just when. When you ask it, I feel your own empathy for it.

So I got to give you a backstory, which will explain. You're saying. Mark, Mark, you're spooking me. Can you stop?

What's going on with the eyes? Is that. Is that your former FBI, you know, hostage negotiation?

So I'll tell you what I learned. To listen into people's eyes.

Listening to people's eyes. Or in. What's the term?

No, listening into people's eyes.

What is it?

So many years ago, I was called up to the ICU at UCLA and to see a patient to. Okay, soft restraints on a patient, to put his arms and legs down because he was pulling his IVs. He was pulling at the respirator tube. He was kicking and whatever. And they said, he's psychotic. Can you. Can you okay the soft restraints? And can you okay the medication, you know, because he's psychotic. So I go into the room, and we'll call him Mr. Jones. And his eyes are like saucers, and he has a respirator tube, so he can't speak. And he's going. I said, what is it? Tell me what it is. And I gave him a pencil, and his hands are tied down, and he just scribbles. And they said, he's psychotic. But he was screaming at me with his eyes. And I said, we had to put your hands and your Legs down. Because you were pulling at the IVs and you were pulling at the tubing and you were pulling at everything. And I gave you a medicine. It'll help you calm down and you know, when you're feeling better, we'll take it all off. So a day and a half later, they page me, the doctors, and they say, Mr. Jones is up and he told us to page you. I go up into the room and he's seated in bed just like I'm looking at you. He grabs onto my eyes with his eyes and he says, pull up a chair. And he seats me in a chair with his eyes and he kept looking at me and he said, what I was trying to tell you is that a piece of the respirator tubing had broken off and was stuck in my throat.

Good grief.

And you do understand that I will kill myself before I go back to that. Do you understand me?

Before I go back to having that happen to me.

Yeah, before. Before I go through something like that. He said, do you understand me? And I looked at him and my eyes got a little emotional like they're now. And I said, so horrible.

Oh my God, that's so horrible.

What I realized is everybody we're with is always trying to communicate something that they're not communicating with their words. Sometimes they don't have the words.

And also, not to judge these healthcare workers, but sometimes we're working so fast and so furiously and we project, look, he's psychotic. Who cares what he's saying? Here's a person.

Just before this, I did an NPR interview and it was about how respiratory therapists and nurses are really, the burnout and the trauma is really escalating. And what I shared with the reporter is I said, when you're in close contact, putting in tubing and stuff, and you see wide eyed fear in people's eyes, or you see something that's not going to end well and they're looking at you to tell them it is. It takes its toll on you, these poor people. And I made an observation that she found very interesting. In studies on burnout, doctors often do better than nurses because the doctors go.

In, zip in and zip out, and they go out.

And plus doctors, maybe it's a male generated thing. Doctors have gallows humor. When I used to consult with the oncology ward, they really cared about dying patients, but they had a certain humor to cut the edge, relieve stress. But a lot of nurses, respiratory therapists, they don't have humor. They're just immersed in horror, terror, fragility, that they're seeing in people. And then I made this comparison, which she laughed at. She said, we're not going to put that in the story. I said, one of the reasons dentists have the highest depression and suicide rate, one of them is because they're looking. They're looking at people with their mouths up and like this and their eyes are wide. Oh, don't hurt me. Put in some more anesthetic. And they're dealing with that. They're like a foot away. That takes its toll on you.

You know, I want to tell you, I think you'll really understand this. And I don't mean to make this about me, but I want to show people that this reaction can happen even when you're a coach. You know, like if I have three clients in a day and they're all under deep distress, I will sometimes have to nap. And the napping is like an energy healing. I know this sounds woo woo, but I have to. I have to. It's like it puts me to sleep. The energy has gone out so much to try to help people. And maybe that's a boundary issue, but my point is we don't all have to be doctors, psychiatrists and healthcare workers to feel this. I think so many of us who are with family members. My mom, 96, had Covid recovered but didn't. Mark didn't. And I can't see her and I won't see her. She'll probably pass and I can't see her. You know, that takes a toll on all of us. And even listening to your sibling who's talking about how she's responding to not being able to touch her own mother, who's going to pass. I think we're all in some ways trying to lift people up in ways we are probably not terribly equipped for. Does that make sense to you?

Makes sense. So I think you'll hold it together. You might need a handkerchief for this. Do the distress relief journal with a picture of your mom saying, it's going to be okay.

It's my time and you know I love it. I'm doing it. And you know, I'm going to show you this. This is my. You can't see it right here. My dad's in heaven and I never knew this till I found this after he died. He was Catholic and I thought he had converted to Greek Orthodoxy for my mom. He hadn't, but it says he wore it in World War II and it says, I am a Catholic. Please call the priest. I don't know. That moves Me so much. He wore this in the war. And so I talked to him. I talked to him and he'll be. He'll be. He's that person for me. And I'm going to do what you say. It's beautiful. All right, I'm aware of our time. We have five more minutes. What else do we need to understand from your book, from, you know, how do we truly heal? Can I ask you one more thing? I ask a question, then I ask another question. For some people, I do think that being with a trained therapist or a coach, if you want. But when it's truly a therapeutic issue, being with someone who can, you know, we used to call it like we put a big container in between us, you know, metaphorically vomit into it. And I'm here. I'm here for you. I do think that some people do need to be in the physical presence of someone else when they are reliving some of this. What do you think about that?

Well, I think that helps. But look, you're in the physical presence of your dad, who's been gone when he's talking to you, so.

That's very true.

What you want to do, build on the bond with another person because that increases oxytocin and oxytocin lessens stress. Since we stretch for time, I'm going to give you a three step other example of surgical empathy that you can use with other people, you can use with your teenagers, you can use with a spouse who's having a rough time, and something that a friend of mine told me whose son died by suicide, and we're going around the country doing programs on that. He said, you know, when you ask someone how they're doing and they say, they're great, they're good, but when they say I'm fine, they're not, I thought, what an amazing observation. And he said, and so here's the three steps. You know, if you ask someone and they say, I'm fine, and you say, I'm guessing you're not, I have a couple questions. Just bear with me. At its absolute worst, how awful are you capable of feeling? At its worst, how awful? Like pain? I'm not talking about behavior. How awful are you capable of feeling? If you're dealing with a teenager, they might say, pretty awful. You deepen it by saying, pretty awful or very awful? Okay, very awful. And when you're feeling that, how alone are you capable of feeling? Very alone. Pretty alone. Pretty alone or all alone? Okay, already all alone. Then you say, take me to the last time you felt it. It's kind of like what we talked about before. What do you mean? Was it 2:30 in the morning? You know, you're pacing around your room, you couldn't get to sleep, felt like punching the pillow, like punching the wall. And here's a magical thing that happens is when you can get someone to describe something that they felt all alone in such detail that you as the listener can see it, they re feel it. But when they re feel it, they're not alone.

Oh, love it.

And they will lean into that. So you can do that in coaching. What was it, you know, in the last week? What was the absolute worst you felt? Did you feel alone? Yeah, I'm at the top. Take me to it. And then you get them to describe it, and as they relive it with you, it transforms the conversation.

So just the very act of not being alone in this trauma that you had changes it. Is it for any other reasons besides oxytocin? Is it?

Well, on Anthony Bourdain, after He died, got 500,000 views in eight days. It was why people kill themselves. It's not depression. So that's an intriguing hypothesis. And I said, there's hundreds of millions of people that are depressed who don't kill themselves. Depression contributes. People lose jobs, but lots of people lose jobs. They don't kill themselves. And look, I'm retired, but I'm a practitioner and student of suicide. What causes it and what I've observed is that when people are suicidal, at the end, most of them feel despair. And if you break the word despair into D, E, S, P, A, I, R, they feel unpaired with reasons to live. Hopeless, helpless, powerless, worthless, useless, meaningless, purposeless. And if they all add up pointless, and they pair with death to take the pain away because death understands them. Death is saying, I'll take the pain away. But if you can get in there and they feel felt by you, not judge that, take the pain away and they'll grab onto you instead of death.

Well, Mark, I don't even want to speak. So powerful. So powerful. Thank you for the amazing work you're doing, everybody. You need to race out and read this book because I think we have been through a hard time here. Whether it's Covid, whether it's losing people, whether it's your fear of your own body, you know, getting ill, whether it's politics that make you feel so alone. You know, I know people who live in. They're Republican, they live in a state that's Democrat. They said, I feel so Alone or vice versa. We have had a hard, traumatic time, I think so everything you say I think can be used every single day. Mark, I really do. I can't thank you enough. And someday you'll answer my question about how you do this with your eyes. That's for the how do you do it? I'm asking right now. I know you have to go. Do you just how do you do this focus? Is it something that comes naturally to you, or is it something you've trained listening with your eyes?

I think when that fellow looked at me and held on to my eyes with his eyes and said a piece of the respirator was stuck in my throat, it just screamed out to me. People are always trying to communicate something in their eyes. And if you can just be curious about it, I'll leave you with another tip. When I spoke with Daniel Kahneman, who wrote Thinking Fast and Slow in Moscow, I spoke to a thousand Russians and I introduced them. I said, here's this is going to change the way you communicate forever. And if you try it for a week, it will change your life. It will change your business life. So I know you want to hear the answer yes. And I said to them, if I focus on what you're listening to, I'll give you some bullet points. You write them down. A few work, most of them won't. And if I'm entertaining, you'll give me your mind for an hour. And then I switched on to my NPR Kathy Caprino voice and I said, but if instead of focusing on what you're listening to, which is transactional, I focus on what you're listening for. And if I get it right without you telling me and I deliver on it, you'll give me everything. And so everybody you're with is always listening for something. And all you have to be is curious. If you're coaching, if you're talking to an investor and you feel it's going sideways, you can always pause and say, you know, I'd like to put a little bookmark here because I get a sense that you're listening for something and we're not covering it. That is a fantastic tip that we're not covering.

That is fantastic. And I'm going to leave you with what I think people are listening for most. It's to be validated as who they are. I think that that is why I'm a very successful coach, that it's not a stretch for me to validate. I see that they're amazing. I see that they're talented. I See that they're not getting, you know, the recognition they deserve. It's not a stretch for me to say that from the bottom of my heart, but I think that so many of us do not feel truly validated. Meaning that I matter. That I matter.

So here's your superpower. You can put this in your marketing material. No, here's a quote. Mark Goulston says this about you. People can trust you to never hurt them. And people can also feel that you believe in them when they don't.

Oh, Mark. That. That's it.

People hurt them and that you believe in them when they don't.

I'm putting that in my marketing material. Oh, I could go on forever. But I know you have another amazing interview coming in 10 minutes. Where do we get your book? Where do we learn more about you? Where? Where, Where? What do we. Do you have an event coming up too, I think. Tell us everything and we'll link to it all below.

Okay. So there's a website. Why cope when you can heal Dot com. Okay. And we're feeding all kinds of excerpts, materials in there. I have a personal website, markgoulston.com and I suffer from blogger, so I just. I just blog a lot. And I have a podcast called My Wake Up Call that Kathy. And I have a weekly show called no strings attached on LinkedIn Live. And I was inspired by Marshall Goldsmith, who has something called the Knowledge Philanthropy, where he's giving away all his ideas and so on. Brings a touch, guests like Kathy who come on and they give away ideas and tips, and you don't owe them anything. You can monetize it, you can steal it. You don't even have to attribute it. It's no Strings attached.

What an idea.

And you know what it is? I thought, what are people listening for on LinkedIn?

Help.

They're listening for a break from transactional fatigue.

Ain't that the truth, man?

So no Strings Attach is an oasis in the middle of LinkedIn. No strings attached. I'm not hitting on you. I don't want anything from you.

It's not my 5,000th pitch that. Oh, I'm so excited to amplify this for you. And I know it's fantastic, like everything you do. Thank you. You're such a light in the world, Mark, and so brilliant. Thank you for your time. I so appreciate it. People, you know what I want you to do? We don't want to just talk. We want this to be, you know, life changing. May we say so, please, wherever you hear this and wherever you Listen.

Share.

Share it. Give us a comment. Give us a question. I don't know about you, but I think you're like this, Mark. I live for questions because then I know it's getting through in a way that's perturbed your curiosity. So please, let us hear from you. Let us know that this is. This is helpful. And I hope people think that my podcast is no strings attached. You know that. Let's just give it. Let's just give it. I hope this is helpful. And here's to your healing. Not just coping, but true healing. And thank you again, Mark. All the best. I know your book's going to be another bestseller. Oh, and thank you again and come back again again soon. I can't get enough. All right, everybody have a one. Oh, I'm sorry.

Jack Nicholson said to Helen and Hunt, and as good as it gets. Kathy, you make me want to be a better man.

I love it. And I love that movie, too. Oh, I think I wish that's true, Mark. Thank you. And right back at you. All right, everybody, have a wonderful week, and we will see you next time.